342. The Borden Murders 

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Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic, and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free full-size mascara. Let's go. On their first purchase, when they use code MWMH at checkout, just head to JonesRoadBeauty.com and use code MWMH at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show, Murder With My Husband, sent you. You know that feeling when too many things fall through the cracks? Monday.com was built for that gap. The AI. The AI work platform where people and agents work side by side to deliver more together. Create your first Monday agent today at Monday.com. You're listening to an Ono Media podcast. Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder With My Husband. I'm Peyton Moreland. And I'm Garrett Moreland. And he's the husband. And I'm the husband. Well, we are still here. Baby has not come yet, but one more week, baby will be here. Maybe. I mean, some babies, they just love to stay in there. We're getting closer. Yeah, I don't know. Pretty exciting. Pain's not feeling good, but other than that, we're pretty excited. Daisy's chomping a clip in the background. So if you can hear that, that is what is going on. She loves to destroy clips. I think we officially have all of our baby stuff set up. We're ready to go. We kind of have everything we need for the most part. I just keep ordering more. I don't. So, yeah, we're excited. And that's kind of all we got. Honestly, guys, we've just been preparing for this baby, working, preparing some more, working some more, getting ready to get Peyton some time off. And yeah, what else? I think today's case might be a little long. Really? So maybe we should just get into it before. It's a case everyone has heard of. What do you know about it? Nothing. Nothing. I know absolutely nothing about it. I know nothing about it, but all of you guys will know everything about it. Let me do my intro and then I'll ask you what you think you know about it. So if you've never heard this case, this will be a good one for you. I'm going to leave our sources for the end of the episode. Okay. I mean, here's the problem is the title of the episode most likely says what it is. You know what I mean? So everyone will know what it is. Yeah, but for you, for you, we'll do this for you. Lizzie Borden took an ax and gave her mother 40 whacks. And when she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41. It's a nursery rhyme you've heard before. You've probably even maybe repeated it yourself. Wait, that's a nursery rhyme? Yep. But the problem is it is wildly inaccurate, as are a lot of repeated things about the story of Lizzie Borden. Time has a way of re-recognizing. That's no surprise. But nowadays, Hollywood is definitely taking it a step further. And while the creative liberties definitely make for good TV, and in Netflix's case, commentary about female repression and rage, the reality is Lizzie Borden was not some demure, shrinking violet having a sexual awakening with her housekeeper. She was likely motivated. She was likely motivated by a lot of things that we typically see in true crime cases. Money, maybe a little bit of revenge. So today we are unpacking the real story behind Lizzie Borden, talking about what Netflix got right and what was just pure fiction altogether. So Garrett, what do you know about Lizzie Borden? Nothing. You never heard that nursery rhyme? I thought that it was part of the case, so I was a little confused at first. It is. I mean, it's a real thing. So is this an older? Yes. This happened a long time ago then? 1800s. No idea. You could have said 2026. I would have said, cool. I've never heard of this. I don't know how. I don't know how that's possible because I don't live under a rock. I do swear I don't. I keep up with almost everything except true crime. Had you heard the name Lizzie Borden? I feel like maybe. I'm not going to say. No, because I feel like I've probably heard it before. So you definitely never heard the 40 Wags? No, I promise you I've never heard that before. Okay. So you know literally nothing. No. And Garrett also has not watched the Netflix documentary. No, I probably won't ever watch the Netflix documentary. It's not even a documentary show. Correct. I watched it. And as always, whenever there is an intriguing remake of a case, I love to do a deep dive of what's real. What's not. What actually happened here. What made for a good TV. You know, I love a good retelling of a story. But then it always needs followed up with that deep dive of something. I know nothing about this. So let's get into it. So let's travel back to over a century and a half ago. The year is 1860. And in the fast growing city of Fall River, Massachusetts, Sarah and Andrew. Borden are welcoming their third child, Elizabeth Andrew Borden. Now, this third child, Elizabeth Lizzie, as she was called, was a blessing. She had a sister, Emma, who was nine years old and another baby who came between the two. A little girl named Alice, though Alice had died before even reaching the age of two. And unfortunately, this was far more common back then. And it goes to show. It goes to show that even the wealthiest, most successful people aren't immune to tragedy even back then. Lizzie's father, Andrew, had started his career out as a cabinetmaker and a carpenter, mostly making furniture. He did own one company that made coffins. But if you've watched the Netflix series, Andrew was not handling any bodies or chalk. now. was someone who came from a much lower social class that was now stepping into place to become her mom. But 12-year-old Emma was old enough to realize what was going on, and she supposedly resented Abby far more than Lizzie did growing up. And over the years, Lizzie and Emma remained a strong, united front as sisters. Despite their age gap, they were extremely close even as they got older, always looking out for each other, always defending one another, especially when it came to their parents. Now, by the time the girls had reached adulthood, Andrew Borden was worth half a million dollars, which would be roughly $18 million today. And Lizzie had become an active and well-respected member of the Fall River community. She was a regular at the Central Congregationalist Church. She also taught Sunday school there. She was part of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, which supported the prohibition of alcohol, anti-tobacco and drug campaigns, labor rights, and even a woman's right to vote. At 20 years old, she was even given a seat on the board at the Fall River Hospital. Plus, Lizzie Borden had a pretty busy social calendar. Not exactly the home body that she's been painted to be, though she was perpetually single. And sources said that's because she was extremely picky when it came to men and being married off. And in the rare case that she did bring home someone she liked, her father thought they weren't good enough for her. And Emma, her older sister, also found herself in a similar situation, always single, saying she never could quite find anyone right enough to marry. And because of that, both sisters lived at home still well into their adulthood, which brought them even closer. And as far as their relationship with their stepmother, Abby, well, that's where things get a bit murkier than maybe the Netflix series or other portrayals have made it seem. One thing was for sure, though. Emma and Lizzie were not buddy-buddy with their stepmother, Abby. They apparently refused to call her mother, which was why they would refer to her to her face as Mrs. Borden, which we saw in the Netflix series. Like, when they, you know, when she would call their name, they would say, yes, Mrs. Borden. I mean, I don't know. Is it that? I feel like that happens in a lot of families that might have stepparents, right? Lizzie was basically raised from her at three years old. Sure. So she, this is really the only mother figure she's known. Okay. But this is like the dynamic in the family. Some sources say they even refused to share a meal with her and their father. Oh, gosh. So the two daughters would eat separately from the parents at dinner. I guess there was one time when a dressmaker referred to Abby as Lizzie and Emma's mother. And Lizzie Borden snapped at her and said, quote, don't call her that to me. She is a mean thing and we hate her. But how mean was she? Like, are these feelings justified? Well, that's what's always been called into question. Their take on their stepmother was that she had come into the home from a lower social class and married Andrew, their dad, not out of love, but for his wealth and social status. When the two tied the knot, Abby was 37 years old, which was basically considered an old maid back then. But they also felt their father never really truly loved her either. That Abby was only brought into the family to basically be a housekeeper and a nanny for the girls. It was a marriage of convenience and because of the times. One, Emma and Lizzie didn't believe in, and they wanted nothing to do with. Now, as villainous as Abby has been made out to be, Lizzie Borden's story, both in the Hollywood and revisionist history versions, there is really no concrete reports of her ever abusing or neglecting the Borden sisters. There were also reports that the Borden women had gotten frustrated with their father's. He was a frugal man, despite being very wealthy. And the fact that they're adults and live at home, this kind of bothered them over the years as they got older. Despite having tons of money, the house didn't have indoor plumbing or gas lighting, which was already common in most middle to upper class households at that time. In fact, sources said Lizzie was extremely embarrassed of her home and how modest, cramped and out of date it was for how wealthy her father was. And that's why she rarely invited people over there to socialize. Plus, Andrew reportedly refused to give his daughters money for things, which became a huge deal when they learned Andrew had handed over a significant chunk of cash to his new wife, Abby. Today's episode is brought to you by Collective, a company built on a simple idea. What if GLP-1s didn't have to cost hundreds of dollars a month? Collective offers doctor prescribed compounded GLP-1s for $59 a month from registered U.S. pharmacies that are third-party tested for quality, and the price stays the same at any dose. There's no introductory medication offer that doubles in your second month and no hidden fees. 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So there you go, Warby Parker. And guess what? They have a lot of stores around, so you can always go in store, but they also have a virtual try-on option. It is a total game changer. It's one of my favorite things. So I can just do everything online, try it on. And order the frames, which is amazing. But if not, you can literally go into a Warby Parker store and they have made it a one-stop place for literally everything. I do my contacts through them, my glasses, my eye exams, everything all in one place. It is so easy. Warby Parker honestly changed the game for me when it comes to my eye health. Right now, buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional pairs at warbyparker.com slash husband. That's 20% off any additional pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional pairs when you purchase one pair at warbyparker.com slash husband. And Emma, who is 36, about this purchase. So 27-year-old and 36-year-old are still living at home. And then their father's like, yeah, honey, let's just buy your sister, their aunt, a home so that we don't have to board her here. Okay. Which to the adult daughters was like, okay, what about us? Like we're still living at home. And he didn't tell them about it. So they ended up finding about it from other people in town. After that, the sisters felt like Abby, their stepmother had some sort of financial power over their father. So they went to their father and they bring up the issue. They're like, I don't know, like so far, it just sounds like normal family drama. Like welcome to having, I'm curious where this goes. But it's like, I feel like I hear about this stuff all the time with step parents and parents and remarrying and divorce. Like it's very common. And I do think back then generational money for the upper class was an even more complicated topic. Yes. It was very different. It was like you were born social status and everything was like a new money was not really a thing. And money wasn't necessarily just means of physical survival. It was means of social survival as well. Like your spot in society. Yeah. weaseled your way into like a rich family i mean that's why the daughters that's what they think about their mother nobody liked you and it's just because of the family she was born into so they go to the father they press the issue they're like listen if you're gonna be giving away money to your wife and to her family then we need some cash of our own like we're full-grown adults and you need to give us money too now eventually andrew gave in he allowed the sisters to buy the home they had lived in before their mother died for one dollar and then in july of that year they went to sell it again because i guess they cared more about the money than the actual sentiment of like i will buy the family home that you had with your mother or you can buy it from me for one dollar and then they just immediately sold it and took the money okay they actually end up selling it back to andrew for five thousand dollars okay so he gives it to them for one dollar and they're like and we don't want it anymore you can have it back for five thousand dollars that's 176 000 today that's really weird and even after this tensions keep brewing in the borden house but 1889 brought one outside her who kind of seemed to change the family dynamic a little bit it was a woman named bridget sullivan bridget sullivan all right let's hear about bridget now much like the netflix version bridget had emigrated from ireland and by the time she applied to be the borden's live-in maid she was about 26 years old so she's actually younger than both of the borden sisters now after she got the money she was able to buy a house and she was able to buy a house and she was able to get a job it was actually emma and lizzie who decided to call her maggie because it was the name that they called all of their previous housekeepers so instead of calling them their actual name that's okay so they wouldn't even call her bridget it was she was referred to as maggie again we're in different times everybody this wasn't abby or andrew's idea like we saw but there were no signs that anyone in the family really treated bridget cruelly instead she was just kind of treated like any other housemate at the time any other employee they mostly just kind of kept their distance from still bridget was working for their family as things at home are getting worse and worse between the parents and the daughters over the next few years and in may of 1892 things in the borden family started to collapse and andrew borden suddenly snapped now there's a lot of things that happened in the family that there's a few variations of this story but here's the ones that historical records tend to say that spring in 1892 andrew borden went out to the family's barn where lizzie borden had recently built a roost for wild pigeons but andrew claiming the pigeons attracted infections and disease or by some accounts neighborhood children onto their property decided to take a hatchet and kill all the pigeons that were in lizzie's roost that she built not cool stories say and again guys that was andrew the father stories say lizzie was rather upset about her father's sudden outburst and that he had killed these animals so mercilessly that she had kind of taken care of others say that he brought them into the house and had them cooked up for dinner and lizzie didn't do so much as bat an eye but it does seem like somewhere in this story how come we have two different how do we have a nursery rhyme about him why do we have one spectrum and another end of the spectrum i don't understand well this is why there's a thousand versions of this story and why there's a nursery rhyme made about this story so we don't even know actually really what is true and not true this is like down to the core of historical research the most accurate story we can put together but that's why i'm telling you okay there are different variations that kind of bugs me sometimes because right but you know who knows like who knows this is the thing about the 1800s and i know we're like in 1890 so we're almost into the 1900s but even the early 1900s the stories i know they're all over the place you can't even trust a true crime case from back then because you have no because a detective could have like stepped on a piece of wood a weird way and then been like it was the neighbor and then like that was enough evidence you know what i mean like every time we flash back to events and true crimes that have happened in the past like history oh it drives me nuts i know that kind of drives me crazy too okay so apparently the killing of the pigeons is still according to all sources a trigger for lizzie because after that the arguments between the sisters and their father escalated in july emma and lizzie took an extended vacation away from the house to get some space and when lizzie came back to town she refused to go back to the borden house for a few days because she was still really mad so instead she stayed at a local rooming house so no the birds were not doves like we saw and no abby the stepmother wasn't the one who slaughtered them in a fit of rage in fact some sources say lizzie didn't even consider the pigeons her pets but the bird massacre does seem like a major plot point in lizzie's lore according to most sources because just a few months later both her parents are going to be found dead okay all right let's hear it a day before these murders an unexpected visitor showed up at the borden's doorstep their maternal uncle okay so their dead mom yes sarah's brother brother his name was john morse he arrived on august 3rd 1892 around 1 30 p.m this is less than 24 hours before lizzie's parents murders this maternal uncle shows up in fact his trip was so spontaneous that i guess he arrived without any luggage he said he was visiting some relatives around the area and just wanted to stop by i think it's kind of funny back then like you're gonna show up at people's houses and everyone's like whoa like what's going on hey how's it going so i don't know it just doesn't really happen now but he also says that this random drop-in like after no contact with this family was also because he had some business matters to discuss with andrew his dead sister's husband that afternoon john then left to go see another family member nearby and then he returned to the borden house that evening to spend the night there but before going to bed he had a discussion with the father andrew and some sources say the stepmother abby as well now there's no official record on what those matters were or what they talked about during this meeting but he said that he had a discussion with the stepmother andrew and then he returned to the borden house that afternoon and then he returned to the borden house that evening but it's the timing of his arrival without any luggage and then father and mother show up dead 24 hours later that some do find suspicious like how does this long lost uncle show up to potentially talk about business and money and then these two end up dead who especially back in these times got money if family members ended up dead did they have a disagreement money property family affairs his visit definitely becomes a sticking point in the case later but his stay wasn't the only shady thing that had happened that day apparently that same afternoon lizzie went to a drug store in fall river and remember she's on like not speaking terms with her dad at this point and she asked the pharmacist if she could buy 10 cents worth of prussic acid which is basically a form of cyanide in the 24 hours before her parents you can just go buy that yes at the local pharmacist that's nuts lizzie tells him she needs it to clean a silskin cape but they apparently refuse to sell it to her they're like you need a prescription which is interesting because abby already suspected she had been poisoned once the stepmother apparently the night before on august 2nd abby andrew and the maid bridget had eaten some leftover broth that made them violently ill and they woke up in the middle of the night with intense stomach pains and abby was so certain the next morning that she had been poisoned that she actually went across the street to the family doctor to tell him about it she's like we all ended up sick again bridget the housemaid also ate this soup and ended up sick andrew however the father he was just like it was a bad batch of soup it's the 1800s he thought abby was being paranoid he even waved the doctor away when he came to check in on him the morning of of the third. But maybe Abby was right, because by the following afternoon, her stepdaughter had gone to try and buy cyanide, and she ended up dead. Now, the morning of August 4th, 1892, started out like any normal day in the Borden household. Andrew left at his usual time to go check in on his businesses, and Abby was left home alone with Lizzie and their live-in housekeeper, Bridget. The only real difference was that that morning, Emma was about 15 miles away on vacation, so Emma wasn't home. And their Uncle John had spent the night, like I told you. So father leaves in the morning for work. It's now Abby, adult daughter Lizzie, and Uncle John, who are at the house. And despite the fact that Uncle John spent the night, he reportedly left the next morning around 8.45 a.m. to go visit another niece that was in town. Now, the way Lizzie tells it, Abby received a note that morning from a sick friend asking Abby to come visit. So Lizzie assumed her stepmother was packing up her things to make the trip and heading out right away. Meanwhile, Lizzie said, she spent the next half hour or so out in the barn. And she also claimed, and this is one of the parts from the show that is true, she was looking for a sinker for a possible fishing excursion she was going to attend. She said she even ate some pears out in the barn during this time. And then around 11 a.m. or so, she finally makes her way back inside the family home. Okay. And that is when she found her father had actually returned home from work by 11 a.m. Only when she walks inside from being out in the back on the family farm for hours, she now finds her father dead inside the family sitting room. Okay. He had been viciously attacked in his head and face with a sharp weapon. Lizzie, she said at this point, she screamed for Bridget because she thinks Abby has gone to visit a sick friend. So she thinks Bridget, the housemate, is the only other person who's home and asked Bridget to go get a doctor and her good friend who lived down the street, Alice Russell. Now, Bridget comes back from fetching both of them in minutes. Now, Dr. Bowen, the Borden's usual physician, checked Andrew's pulse, quickly concluded he was dead. I will say, he was obviously dead. And it was just after that that she's like, wait, what about Mrs. Borden? Like, had she left the house yet or is she still here? Because she was supposed to go visit a friend, but did she ever actually make it? So now with two more, with Bridget there and the doctor, she's like, what about Mrs. Borden? So she yells out for her and claimed they ran upstairs to see if she was still home or if she had left. And that's when they discover her body in the family home as well. Of course, of course. She is dead in a pool of her own blood in the second floor guest room where her uncle John had spent the night, the night before, but he left at 8.45 a.m. So Andrew and the stepmom mom are both dead. Yes, with the same type of weapon. And obviously chopped up, not chopped up. But you know what I'm saying? Axed to death. Yes, axed to death. But basically chopped up at that point. While Bridget, the housemaid, one was upstairs. Yes. While Bridget, the housemaid, we don't know where she was at this point and she's fine. And Lizzie claims she was in the barn the entire time. Lizzie claims that Lizzie herself was in the barn the entire time. Now, it's not long before police show up. They start asking questions. The Bordens have been axed to death. This is huge news in Fall River. Yep. Lizzie repeated the story you just heard, at least at first, but as time passed, according to most sources, her details start to change. They always do. They always do. She began by telling them that the reason she went back inside from outside was because she heard a grunt or a groan coming from the house. Now, when she tells the story later, she claims she heard nothing. She was just coming back in. She was coming back in the house because she was done outside. There was nothing wrong. But the officers had other issues with Lizzie. They felt she was calm. She was poised for someone who had literally just found their parents dead in such a brutal way. But despite all of this, no one checked Lizzie for bloodstains, checked her fingernails. They barely searched her bedroom, claiming they didn't want to disturb Lizzie since she obviously wasn't feeling well after finding her parents. Lizzie was murdered, and she just needed to lie down. Now, when police checked the barn to look for clues and confirm Lizzie's alibi, they find it so stiflingly hot that they couldn't imagine anyone had spent one minute in there, let alone 20 minutes in this barn eating pears. Why was it so hot? Just because outside? Yeah. Okay. They also found no footprints outside that would suggest Lizzie had recently been walking around there that morning. So after this, they search the basement. And there they find what they believed to be the murder weapon. Okay. And I've been calling it the axe. The nursery rhyme calls it the axe. Everyone refers to it as axed to death. What is it? But I'm about to drop. Is it a sword? It was probably just a hatchet. Like a smaller version of a hatchet. Like a smaller version of an axe. It wasn't an axe. I mean, that's fine. I get it. I mean, hatchets tend to be quite a bit smaller. But I mean, I understand the reference. It doesn't bother me. Axe sounds more brutal. Yes. So yeah, history and Hollywood have both told us that it was an axe. But it likely wasn't an axe. I don't know if that detail matters that much. Axe, hatchet. I don't know. It's just that axe and Borden have been so like tightly. Tied together? Yes. But it was probably a hatchet. Can I be honest? There have been so many times where I go to the gym and then I just wander around and have no idea what to do. No plan. No progress. But then I found the Ladder app and it's completely changed how I work out. Ladder is an expert strength training plan, not a content library. So these aren't influencer workouts or challenges. It's real progressive programming designed by certified coaches to help you out. You get a new plan every week. That builds on the last one. The workouts connect each week, progresses from the one before through structured training blocks. And it's so nice for people like me who do feel lost at the gym to have something like Ladder to be there for you. 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There was a fresh break in this hatchet's handle and it was rubbed in ash and dust as if someone had tried to make it look like it had been in the basement for a while. Like untouched. They also found some bloody clothes and rags in the basement. Oh my gosh. Lizzie tells them, no, no, no, that's just from my menstruation. Or as in the show, her menses, which I thought I was like, that's funny that I know they did refer to it that. And it can't be. But she says, that's my menses rag. So the officers drop the menses rag. They're like, oh, this is your menstruation blood? Yeah, we're not even going to look into it. We'll just put all this blood back, bloody clothing and cloth back in the basket. And they moved on? And we're going to move on. No way. Now, after the autopsy, a clearer picture of that gruesome morning comes into focus. 64-year-old Abby Borden, 64, was attacked first. Her autopsy documented 19 wounds, not 40 whacks. They're not 40. 18 of these whacks, though, were still to her head. Oh, my gosh. So that is still very unthinkably violent. Her father, 69-year-old Andrew, suffered 11 wounds, not 41, 10 of which made his face completely unrecognizable because they were majority wounds. I just don't understand how you do that. I truly don't understand. They also believe he was killed about a half hour after Abby, maybe because he came home from work late, or he had been at work and then came home. Either way, the victim's stomachs were also removed to check for any toxins or poisons. Nothing was found. And when the news made its rounds, the rumors that Lizzie had done it because she was home seemed inconceivable. How? How could a woman be capable of something so brutal and gruesome? Not to mention as physically demanding as this. And this is something that we see in the portrayal of this story, and it is true. People, especially police and men, but people around town. They were like, no way a woman could do this. They were like, no way is a woman strong enough. Which is interesting because I feel like that stigma, for the most part, now has kind of gone away. I think a woman. Like, it can be a boy or a girl that kills somebody. could definitely do 11 hatchet wounds to the face. Oh, 100%. 40, that's a lot. But 11, I think that is definitely possible. It also makes sense, I guess, that it was a hatchet. It's easier. But police were like, there's no way a woman could even throw a hatchet like that 11 times. Also, like I said, Lizzie was a Sunday school teacher. A wealthy, well-educated young woman who lived comfortably on her father's money. What motive did she even. What motive did she even have for attacking her parents so violently? Like, this is a very violent, personal, brutal attack. It just didn't seem right. And Lizzie seemingly had an excuse for all of it. When the pharmacist came forward saying, well, she did try to buy poison from me the day before, Lizzie was like, no, it was just to clean my coat. When asked why she didn't find Mrs. Borden right away, she was like, I assume she had already left the house. This was despite the fact that no note mentioning a sick friend of hers. was ever found at the crime scene. That story just came from Lizzie alone. Now, when Bridget, because obviously the maid was also there, so she gets interrogated. I'm curious what she says, because she had to have been there the whole time. She claims she was washing the windows outside. Okay, but. Listen. Okay. She says she came in from washing the windows and she heard a wicked laugh in the other room. And around the time of Mrs. Borden's supposed death, which again, a wicked. This is just one of those details from the past that I'm like, I don't know how many people would wickedly laugh while hatching someone to death. But back then, it seems like that would be, oh, this is what we've heard. Of course she would wickedly laugh while killing her stepmother. It feels too sensationalized to be true. I just find it really hard to believe that. You're axing somebody to death. And laughing. And you're not. Well, no, you're not hearing that outside. Right. Right. Like, get out of here. There's just. Nah, there's no way. No, all she hears is the wicked laugh. The wicked witch of the West. And said, the laugh was from Lizzie. Now, Lizzie was like, that couldn't have been true. When you came in from washing the windows, I wasn't even upstairs. I was outside as well. So, you did not hear that laugh come from me. Okay. And then three days after the murders, Lizzie was caught by her friend, Alice Russell, her friend from down the street, trying to burn a blue corduroy dress in her kitchen oven. Okay. Alice is like, Lizzie, why are you burning clothes in your kitchen oven? She says, I got paint on the blue corduroy dress. It's permanently ruined. I'm just getting rid of it. Now, there were some other suspects considered along the way, like the other members of the household staff, including Bridget's, who was reportedly the only one home alone with Lizzie during the time of the murders. But she actually was reportedly seen washing the family windows outside the house. Really? Okay. Because neighbors and people walking on the street were like, no, she was outside washing windows. So, maybe she really was washing windows and didn't hear anything? It just kind of surprises me. There was also Uncle John Morse, who arrived home about 45 minutes after the bodies were found. So, remember, he went and visited Denise, apparently. He comes home. The timing of his arrival the day before also caused suspicion because he was staying in the exact guest room where Abby Borden was killed. Why was she even in his room? However, John provided the police with a solid alibi, including the badge numbers of the horse car conductors who drove him to and from his other family's house that day. Emma, the oldest sister, was also considered for a moment. But again, she had a pretty solid alibi at her friend's house about 15 miles away in Fairview, Fairhaven. But there's also one other person, William Borden. Apparently, and this isn't brought up in the series, one of Andrew's sons that he had out of wedlock may have come back to the house to take revenge on the family after being financially cut off. So, he had a son with someone else. They said that estranged son came back and killed him. Killed his father and his father's wife. This theory does kind of seem to be maybe another work of historical fiction, though. His name never actually appears in any police records at the time. So, it's like, was it just this made-up story of this, you know, son that was an accident that came back for revenge? Yeah. I mean, I obviously haven't heard the entire case yet, but in my mind, Lizzie didn't like the mom. She wanted money. I think she killed them for money. And I do kind of think the brother, the mom's, the dead mom's brother is involved. Uncle John. To an extent of, hey, Lizzie, you should kill them, and then we can share all this money. But let's hear how this keeps going. Oh, so it was like a conspiracy. Yeah, that's kind of what I think. And he's there to help. For sure, yeah. You know, I'll show up 45 minutes. After the murder. Handle the police. Uh-huh. Okay. So, after looking at everything, Lizzie Borden becomes suspect, number one, mainly because her story had been changing. You know, she was caught burning the clothes in the oven. She did have motive. She really, really hated her parents at the time. They were not getting along. So, just five days after the murders, she began testifying. Testifying at a police inquest. And once she gets to this, basically, interrogation with police, her stories change again. Oh, I hate it. I hate when stories change. Bugs me. I don't mind it when it's, like, modern day and there's recorded evidence of it. True. But when it's been passed through, like, folklore and history, I'm like, is it? Did it? Did it, really? So, first, she says she thought Abby had left. Now, she's like, actually, I didn't think Mrs. Borden had left. I thought she was upstairs sewing when I came in. Previously, she said she actually saw Abby leave the house, heard the front door lock. And then she said, no, I actually heard my stepmom come home and go upstairs. Also, that would mean the front door was locked. So, how did someone else get in the house? She also then says at one point that when her father came home from work that day, she greeted him and took off his bag. And then she's like, no, I didn't even know my father had come home from work. I didn't interact with him at all that morning because I was outside the whole time. Even the descriptions of her outfit that day were inconsistent, like, what she had been wearing. It was a mess. But the family doctor testified on her behalf. He admitted he had given Lizzie a double dose of morphine that morning after the murders to help her calm down, help her sleep, and it probably caused her a lot of confusion for her that day because first she stumbles upon her parents' murders and then he feeds her full of morphine. But one thing stayed consistent for Lizzie throughout the entire thing. She insists, I had no motive to kill my stepmother or father, which is quite literally the opposite of what everyone else in her life is saying. But she claimed she and Abby were, quite cordial by the time of the murders. and they had very kindly feelings for one another and her sister emma comes in and says no this is true like they didn't hate each other they had kind of grown up they had gotten over their beef a little bit but the judge doesn't buy it and on august 11th one week after the murders he issues a warrant for lizzie's arrest and he has her catered off to jail unlike the netflix series she doesn't get a cushy one bedroom in a boarding house with a desk and a fully made bed along with meals from the local hotel for her they put that in the show yeah i think trying to play up to like the societal status at the time i think there's always reasons that they fictionally make things up sure i mean a lot of the reasons like people don't realize it's it keeps people watching and people might get annoyed or upset but it's like yeah you actually might have turned that off like 30 minutes ago if it wasn't the way it is well and also it is a fiction i mean yes they're very up front that they are taking a real it's based on real life events but they are making a fictional series about it and again i do feel like a lot of the fictional things they put in are to try and stress other points in the case like well she was high society so she wouldn't have went to normal jail so this isn't actually a normal case at all you know what i mean she was sent to a tiny nine by seven foot jail cell okay where she spent the next nine months waiting for trial being put on trial for murdering her parents okay she was charged with first degree murder this was shocking shocking to the town and if she was found guilty she would be facing the death penalty i'm just like who else would it have been how to have been her i so i don't know if you're gonna throw in a something crazy but in my mind it's like guys it's definitely her if she gets convicted the authorities are saying we are going to hang her okay with that lizzie's case moves beyond her local town and starts making national headlines and surprisingly gained her plenty of support a lot of women's groups started rallying around her remember she did a lot of volunteer work for women i get that but if you killed someone i don't want to hear it with her father's money that is now left in her name by the way because she did get all the money with her father's money she buys her parents money and she buys her parents money she buys the best lawyers a girl can find including a former governor of massachusetts and boston's most prominent defense attorney now nowadays you're on trial for killing someone you probably wouldn't inherit their money to be able to pay for your defense i think that there are rules yes there are state by state vary but for that uh but no she was allowed to do and she gets a former governor and the most prominent defense attorney good for her and when it came time for her trial on june 7th 1893 the evidence at this point seemed to also be on her side as well or what you could consider evidence back then because like i said they didn't even collect the menzies rags a harvard chemist testified there was no blood found on two hatchets or any other weapons retrieved from the family basement lizzie also reportedly turned over a dress that she claimed to be wearing the day of the murders mind you she changed in her story to story what she was wearing but she does end up turning the dress over to evidence and they find only a tiny spot of blood which she found the bodies so lizzie did not take the stand at her own trial her attorneys did the work for her they painted her to the jury as a well-bred woman saying she's practically a nun she's wealthy she was raised in a good family she did all this volunteer work she's not even married she could never have committed a crime as vicious as this like how does a woman who teaches sunday school brutally hatchet her parents to death now a jury mind you that was exclusively composed of white middle to upper class men because this was the standard at the time for juries which again kind of benefits her to be honest well because they didn't think she could physically do it either yeah i mean i feel like it's something that is pretty apparent now but i mean it it still happens to an extent like how could that person do that like there's no way that that person did this and it's like you truly just never know somebody yeah it doesn't matter doesn't matter who you are but that's our bias yes of so many biases again women and foreign born immigrants weren't allowed to sit on juries at this time so that basically leaves one type of person the prosecution however tried to convince this jury that lizzie was capable of doing this crime and all it took was her extreme loathing of her stepmother combined with a recent threat of andrews to change the will into abby's favor during their argument about money because remember the daughters had been arguing about money apparently andrew through word of mouth threatened to change the will into abby's favor the stepmother which means that you would then also have to get rid of the stepmother to inherit you bam the prosecution's like we have a motive but the defense argued for reasonable doubt just a year before the deaths the borden home had actually been burglarized the barn had been broken into twice they said it was just as possible that it was some unknown assailant who was caught mid-robbery like there have been unknown people wandering into this house before if we're looking at history it could have happened again although i will say in this case there were no signs of forced entry the jury heard testimony and they said that it was testimony from bridget uncle john the dressmaker who recalled the comments lizzie was making about her quote mean good for nothing stepmother because they're trying to put on trial that she hated her and her best friend alice russell who does get up and say i caught her burning a dress okay the defense brought on witnesses like emma borden the oldest who claimed she was the one who told lizzie to burn the dress with paint on it she's like it just was ruined i told her to burn it uh along with other information that just helped her sister out and a few others who reported seeing strangers lurking around the borden property at the time of the murder in the end each side took over four hours to give their closing statements which is kind of funny because that's like not a lot today but for a trial back then where trials could have just lasted one day it is a lot the jury had their answer almost immediately again unheard of but not back then after only an hour they came back to say lizzie borden was not guilty okay she physically couldn't have done this okay she emotionally couldn't have done this that's crazy because i mean i get it i get it's a completely different it's different but also there is no hard evidence they didn't find a murder weapon the the maid was home like you said she didn't hear anything find that hatchet yeah but there was no blood on it they just assumed that was the murder weapon that's like how evidence went back in the day yeah i mean i guess if you do look at it even now like if you don't find a murder weapon there's no eyewitness account eyewitness accounts there's probably a pretty good chance that person gets off anyways i'm not saying they checked but they didn't check her for defensive wounds they didn't or they didn't check her for offensive wounds i guess i should say yeah they didn't check her fingernails to see if there was blood they didn't check her clothing that day to see if there was blood they didn't check her clothing that day to see if there was blood so i mean they didn't check but they also yeah there was no evidence found how do you axe hatchet whatever somebody a dozen times and well their theory is that she did the mom first cleaned up did the dad cleaned up and then put on the show of finding the body screaming to bridget but i will say axing your parents to death with your housemaid just innocently washing the windows outside that's what i'm saying that part still is bugging me but maybe not in that day maybe not in that day and age maybe it was well if she comes in i'll hatchet her too i hear the kids screaming outside my house yeah like there's no way you're axing somebody you're stabbing whatever somebody killing somebody and no one's hearing anything especially because we already know that this house didn't have like oh insulation and there was no insulation in that house it depends i'd like to look at their house because the house could be made of like all brick like they are in like europe for example and then yeah it would be insulated better like it would be you couldn't hear through brick no i'm just saying it would be better insulation i'm just saying how soundproof i mean houses were houses were built a little bit differently maybe even better than nowadays to be honest i mean yeah like a lot of the homes in europe and stuff aren't just like wood and they are more stable it's like they're made from brick and concrete so they're insulated differently anyways anyways anyways after the trial lizzie and emma pulled their inheritance and bought a bigger mansion in fall river oh my god it was more updated that was that was the mansion they thought their dad should have bought for crazy so lizzie just got away with murder allegedly there they spend the next 12 years of their life living together these two sisters they don't get married they live off their father's inheritance in a mansion which like i can't blame them it was a little weird for the times though emma who was a bit more conservative and introverted kind of kept to herself but lizzie after she was a little bit more conservative and introverted and kind of kept to herself but getting off at trial she begins to kind of relish in her new fame she enjoyed her new independence her wealth and she's now a little bit more independent and she's now a little bit more She started buying a lot of expensive things. She got in with a group of actors throwing giant over-the-top parties at her new house. In fact, if you watched the Netflix series, this is when she met that actress that she meets in the series. Not before the murders, so no. But apparently, the differences in their new lifestyles led to a really tense rift between the sisters. And you know what this kind of reminds me of, interestingly enough, is in the other Netflix series about the Menendez brothers. Yeah. It's very similar, where after the murders, they get a lot of money. They start, you know, living a more lavish lifestyle, as two young kids would do. But one of the brothers kind of begins to crack. And that's almost how it feels like, according to sources, Emma starts to feel. Their new lifestyle leads to a rift between the sisters, so much so that in 1905, Emma passed away. And Emma packs her things and moves out of the mansion after an argument with Lizzie. Reportedly, the sisters never spoke or saw each other ever again. Interesting. After that. And while Lizzie might have been accepted by the more liberal theater crowd, the community she was once a respected part of really shut her out. Wow. After this trial. The townspeople of Fall River, including her old church crowd, were like, you might have been found innocent, but this is weird. You're kind of a pariah. Which is why she ends up changing her name to Lizbeth to try and reinvent herself. Get away from Lizzie Borden. She should have changed it to like Ashley or something. It never really worked. Lizzie could not get away from the crime she was accused of and eventually became more and more reclusive. Came to a point that she barely left her home at all. And in 1926, Lizzie became really sick and had to get her gallbladder removed and never improved. That's ironic. Yeah. She never improved. She never improved from this. So she finally died at home on June 1st, 1927, which isn't going to happen to me because it's not 1927 anymore. The reason we're saying it's ironic is because Peyton has to get her gallbladder removed. Yeah, but it's a safer surgery now. She was 66 years old. Emma died nine days later. Her older sister died nine days after her while living in a nursing home in New Hampshire at the age of 76. They were buried side by side in a family plot in Fall River. Right next to their father, their stepmother, and their mother, Sarah. Oh my gosh, that's so ironic. Before her death, Lizzie made sure her tombstone read Lisbeth Andrews Borden, so her new name. So that is basically the end of the overall story. I'm going to do just a little quick synopsis on the Netflix show. If you haven't watched it, you can just end here. If you have, this is just like a fun little add-in. If you watch the Netflix series, you're probably starting to realize. There were a lot of creative liberties taken. A lot of it hinges on the urban legends surrounding Lizzie and the rumors, which makes for good entertainment, but not really historical accuracy. So let's talk about the big ones. Starting with the elephant in the room that isn't even really a part of the real story, but was a huge part of the Netflix story. Did Lizzie Borden actually have a lesbian affair with Bridget, the maid? And did they do this together? Oh. That was one of the things? That's one of the big motives is Bridget taught her how to kill and said, let's kill and take your parents' money and run away together. Oh my gosh. Okay. The answer is there is no evidence. Well, because Bridget didn't sound like Bridget lived with her afterwards or anything. So it's, I don't know if I believe that. There was no evidence that this was the case. Apparently there were some rumors circulating later in Lizzie's life that she might be gay because she never got married, but there is zero indication that she ever had a relationship with Bridget. The maid. There's also zero indication that Bridget, the maid was involved with the murders. Remember, she has an alibi. She was seen outside of the house by multiple people. Washing windows. Okay. No charges were ever brought against her for being part of the plan. And there's also the entire story about the neighbor, Bertha Manchester, who in the series borrowed Bridget from the family for a few days and assaulted her later in the show. Lizzie ends up killing Bertha. First before killing her parents in defense of Bridget. Are there just killing random people? There was multiple murders in the series. Okay. In real life, Bertha Manchester did exist, but her murder took place nearly 10 months after the Borden's and Lizzie was already sitting in jail. So that actually has nothing to do with her. They caught the man, um, or reportedly they caught the man. And then we have the Eileen Warnos of it. All which is a female serial killer. Garrett has no idea who that is. She is brought into the Netflix story and portrayed because later on, like lots later on in the eighties, um, she is very much inspired by Lizzie Borden in the Netflix series. This she's killing men. And she's so inspired by Lizzie Borden who stood up to her evil parents and killed them. None of this is true. There's no historical evidence that she was ever obsessed with Lizzie Borden. There's no records that she talked about. Her at all during her life. And she did not go to the Lizzie Borden house and have a ghost experience with Lizzie Borden because it didn't become a bed and breakfast until 96 and Warnos was already convicted and serving her sentence at the time. But it did become a bed and breakfast. The home where the murders happened. As I mentioned, there was also no plan to poison the Borden's with oysters that came out of nowhere. They were pigeons, not doves. And the doves died at the hands of animals. Andrew allegedly, not Abby. There again was no lesbian love affair. We actually don't really know what happened to Bridget except that she settled down and got married after the trial. The murder weapon wasn't believed to be an ax. It was believed to be a hatchet, but the biggest thing the show might have exaggerated or got wrong entirely, which it's not just the show. It's history in general was making Abby the ultimate villain, the evil stepmother while they do not seem to have a great relationship. It wasn't her perpetual torture of Lizzie that caused Lizzie to then one day pick up a hatchet and kill them. It was a lot more likely to be money. And the reason I think it might have been money. I mean, look what happens after they were dead. This lavish spending, lavish spending, partying. I don't know. And it was done strategically. Some accounts say she killed Abby first because if she had killed Abby, she would have been killed. If she had killed Andrew first, part of his estate would have been given over to Abby's family. But if Abby died before Andrew, she and Emma, the daughters would inherit it all, which is exactly what ended up happening. There are also whispers that Lizzie was abused physically and sexually, but by her father, not by Abby. There's not much evidence to support this, but papers at the time sort of initiated it. Which that one's hard because, I mean, that's something that could very well be true. But it was, I mean, it's obviously now still hidden. And back then it was even more hidden. Yeah. I will say historians of the case do later, they do bring it up because it was written in local newspapers at the time, but they don't bring it up as fact. They bring it up as this was brought up in papers and we don't know why. Where did this come from? What were the sources? Whatever, whatever, whatever. Interesting. I think the biggest thing was that, and this happens a lot. And when we see fictionalized series about killings is we tend to sometimes see justification of the murder. Like we make the stepmom, the villain, so villainous and so cruel and so evil that you're almost rooting for her to be dead. Oh, I mean, that happens. And yeah, it happens all the time. And it kind of seems like not just here, but in this story in general, Lizzie has kind of been made out to be a hero. Her parents were villains. Like her dad wouldn't give her any money and her stepmom was mean and her and her sister were locked in this house as adults and couldn't get married because the father never approved of anyone. And like, there's always some, oh, she broke free. She killed her parents and broke free. But as we know, there is no heroism in cold blooded murder, no matter what events get us there. So the next time you hear Lizzie's story or even consider dressing up. As her for Halloween. Oh, don't do that. Think about the real Lizzie Borden, the truth behind this story, the alleged accusations. This case is still unsolved because she was found not guilty at trial. No one actually, according to the law, has down who killed her parents. Sometimes those we don't think are capable of being a monster can be the scariest, most dangerous monsters. Of all. And that is the real case of Lizzie Borden and the murder of her parents, Andrew and Abby. Interesting, because I mean, I haven't seen that flick show, so I'm sure it would sway me in like a different direction than what you just told me. I think it's different enough. It wouldn't. OK, some I will say, like for the Menendez version of Monsters, which is the same series. Oh, yeah, that was like a 180. Swayed a lot. A lot of people, you had a lot, it was hard. were really pushing empathy which is also happens in real life with that case so the lines were a lot more blurred and gray i think in this portrayal it's so fictionalized that it doesn't even like blur the lines really interesting okay but if you disagree with that you watched it and you disagree please let me know all right you guys that was our episode for today thank you guys so much for listening and we will see you next time with another one i love it i hate it goodbye you know that feeling too many updates too many meetings too many things falling through the cracks monday.com was built for that gap the ai work platform designed from the ground up for people and agents to work side by side and deliver more together drafting the brief flagging risks running a competitive scan your agent can do it all and the best part anyone can build one even you try it create your first monday agent today at monday.com