The Best Relationship Advice That Everyone Needs to Hear (From the World’s #1 Love Researchers)

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. So this year, my husband and I are celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary. I know, that's a long time. And people often ask me, Mel, what is the secret to a lasting relationship? And I'll tell you, I joke, I say, marry Christopher Robbins, because the dude is so calm. Me, on the other hand, I am the eruptor, the volcano, the hurricane. And here's the truth. Like every relationship, we have conflict. We fight. We have frustrations. We irritate each other. We've had our ups. We've had our downs. But let me tell you something. Because of what I just learned in the episode that you're about to listen to with two of the greatest relationship researchers of all time, I am so excited to go on a date with you. And I'm so excited to go on a date with you. And I'm so Instead of reacting direct from your amygdala, you know, which is terror, right, and defensiveness comes out. So when you engage the brain, the thinking brain, then you can be a little less defensive. Yeah, let me add that you can be less physiologically aroused. Right. You know, one of the things that we found in our research is that oftentimes people can be sitting as calmly as John and I are right now, having a conflict, but one of their heart rates will be over 100 beats a minute. And they've gone into fight or flight, which means blood has left this prefrontal cortex, moved back into the motor cortex. They cannot think clearly, listen clearly, problem solve, and be creative. It's impossible because this is offline. So by John pulling out that notebook very slowly… There's a couple of ways it's wonderful. For one, it keeps you calm. It keeps you more focused on kind of the cognitive element of what I'm saying, as opposed to, Did he? Did she really say that? Or, for me, what it tells me is that, gosh, he's going to take me seriously, right? He's not going to be thinking about, okay, when do I get the oil changed in the car? I can tell that he's listening because he is taking notes, and that's meaningful for me. It helps me to feel his presence, and it's a wonderful thing for all of you to do as well. I love that. And I could imagine Dr. Gottman reaching, hold on, let me get my notebook out of my pocket here. You study love in a lab. What does that mean for the person that's not familiar? What does that mean for the person that's not familiar with your groundbreaking foundational research on relationships? What do you do? Yeah, so Julie and I, after we first met, we designed this apartment where 130 newlywed couples, just a couple of months after the wedding, would spend 24 hours. The camera is rolling, no instructions, you know, they have an opportunity to eat together and clean up together, you know, read the newspaper, watch TV, whatever they want to do. And the cameras are just rolling. And while they're walking around, we're measuring their heart rate, they're measuring all kinds of physiological measures. Every time they urinate, we take a blood, we take a sample and measure stress hormones. And then we take blood from them the next day and look at the immune system and stress hormones in the immune system. So we're just kind of watching couples. And it turns out that we can predict the future of the relationship six years later from the way they interacted in that apartment lab. So the prediction is really 94% accurate at predicting the future. So you could predict with 94% accuracy who was going to make it and who wasn't? Right. That's right. This is like the original reality TV. It sounds like you guys invented the format. That's right. Let me add also that this brilliant man over here created a fantastic system for codifying emotions. That means looking at the face, looking at the movements of the body, looking at the words, the tone of voice, the eye gaze, and assessing from that what emotion is that individual feeling when they speak. Then what's the other individual going to respond with? What kind of feeling is that? So we call that space. Specific affect, which means emotion. Specific affect coding. And that in itself tells us a huge amount about the dynamic. Who's being belligerent? Who's being domineering? Who is being subordinate? Who's being kind? Who's trying to make a repair if they said the wrong thing so that the other person doesn't get their feelings hurt? Right. They're using humor as a way to wind things down. Humor turns out to be very important. Right. Why is how we handle conflict so important in a relationship? Because we fight all the time. We are human beings. You know, one of the things, Mel, that I have really tried to understand since I was a kid is how come people are mean to each other? Why is that? What's evil? What does that even mean? What I've really understood from lots of archaeological reading and so on is that people have aggression. They've also got altruism. They can be very, very kind. But all of us have those aggressive instincts inside of us. So what happens with it? Typically, it goes to the person that's closest to us because that person, we assume, is not going to abandon us, is not going to run away. They're going to be there to listen to us. And so we have personality differences from our partner, lifestyle preference differences from our partner. Everybody has those. And 69% of the issues couples struggle with are perpetual conflicts. They never, ever go away. That was a big surprise to us. Yeah. So they just keep coming up, right? Over and over and over again in some different format through the side door. So what do you do with that? Well, people can avoid those, sweep them under the rug. But, you know, they don't have conflict, but they grow more distant typically over time. Or they can learn to really talk in a way that's calm, little bit of emotion, maybe a little more intellectual, you know, trying to solve the problem very fast. We call those validators. And then there's me. I'm a volatile, like maybe you are, and we love to explode. We love to be passionate about expressing our emotions. And I'm a conflict avoider. It's a great combo. So we've figured it out over time. We're going to get into, we're going to get into these different types. But before we do, I want to just talk a little bit about the research because it's so fascinating. You've already mentioned that by observing a couple in this apartment love lab, you could predict with 94% accuracy whether or not they were going to be together in six years. That's correct. And we're going to get into what you were looking at that really was the signal that they're not going to make it. Right. There's also interesting research that you have around how the first three minutes of a fight predict everything. Right. Let's hear about that. You know, Bob and I found that if we had couples talk about a conflict issue for 15 minutes, we could predict with almost 90% accuracy whether they would divorce or stay together. And if they stayed together, how happily married or unhappily married they would be. But then. And then somebody in my lab, Sybil Carrere, said, what if we lop off the data from the last three minutes and we only have 12 minutes? What's the prediction like with only 12 minutes of data? And it was just fine. And she said, well, let's lop off another three minutes. She got down to the first three minutes and we were still predicting the future of the relationship very accurately by just looking at that first three minutes. And couples who really are going to wind up divorced or together unhappily start off the conversation really differently from couples who we call the masters of a relationship. That beginning is so important. Now I'm like, okay, well, what's the beginning that predicts divorce and breakup versus the beginning that doesn't? I have an idea. Let's role play it. Let's do it. Let's role play it. Sure. All right. So this is predictive of. Going down. Yeah, well, so I want to talk to you about this. I really think that you're really ruining this marriage. What? And it's your responsibility because you're being so obsessive compulsive. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me finish. I'm not going to let you finish. You're such a slob that, you know, I can't even walk through the living room. I am charmingly sloppy. But you are really. A nut. I mean, you're. You need therapy. You really do. I mean, everything has to be perfect for you. Everything's got to be perfect. Well, that's right. And I need therapy just to live with you. I don't even want to talk about this anymore. All right. I feel like I now know what it's like to be a marriage therapist. Watching the two of you. Oh, you ain't seen nothing. That could be worse. I once had somebody who was so. upset, so flooded, and she was all of about four foot ten and her husband was six five and had cheated on her etc so i tried to calm her down she finally sat down on the couch and my couch was a beautiful red leather gorgeous couch when she left there were scratch marks on the couch that that i bet her heart rate was up i bet it was so unpack what was happening in that because i think that we've all experienced those kinds of fights whether it's about the relationship or now you're arguing about well you're you're you're giving the kid too much money and that that that and you're over parenting and like you know aiming it like what was happening in that fight you just had so i was describing the problem in terms of her personality being deficient that there was something wrong with her personality being deficient After a while, they accumulate, and then you may end up with an eruption, right? Which doesn't help anybody. One thing that can happen, we saw in this study that the Sloan Center at UCLA did on dual career couples with young children, and they spent less than 10% of an evening in the same room. They talked to each other an average of 35 minutes a week. And mostly what they talked about was errands. Who's going to do what, when? So they wound up really living these parallel lives where they ignored the relationship. They ignored friendship, intimacy, fun, adventure. Their lives had devolved into this infinite to-do list that they did together, but that was the only contact they had. So they lived life in parallel. He goes to work, she goes to work. They come home, they're with the kids, but they're not really talking to each other. They're not saying, God, you know, we used to have so much fun, and we don't have any anymore. We're just kind of becoming drudges. They don't say that to one another. They stay roommates. They stay roommates. They avoid conflict. They avoid saying how lonely they are, how unhappy they are, how much they miss the way they used to really pay attention to the relationship. If the person listening is thinking, well, that's me, because I can think of Chris and my marriage where we have three kids who are now all in their 20s, but when they were little, that was us. That was you. We were two ships passing in the morning and the night and arguing about who didn't go to the grocery store and that no matter what I do, it's never enough. Yeah, you have to build in rituals of connection in the relationship. Build in times that you can count on having your partner's ears. And, you know, we have an annual honeymoon that we do. And for 27 years, we've gone to the same bed and breakfast and took our kayak and we spend two weeks asking each other three questions. What sucked about last year? What did you hate about last year? What did you love about last year? And what do you want next year to be like? So we have that ritual where we know we can connect and it's romantic and it's fun and we kayak and, you know, we hike and, you know, it's always magic. Let me point out, though, what John is talking about, especially for really busy two-career couples, are those rituals of connection. But they don't have to be great big, you know, broadcasts. They can be something so simple, like how do you say good morning first thing when you wake up? How do you say good night? And you look forward to that. What do you do on the weekends when you get to sleep in? How about a date night? You know, I mean, lots of people talk about that, but do they actually do it? So there's so many ways we can connect with one another that sustains the sense that, ah, they're right beside me. They're right there, even though they're in a different office. I love that recommendation, because I do think when you're in that moment, as the research suggests, which I think most couples are both probably working because of the reality of how expensive life is, and coming and going, and that only 35 minutes a week in the, I mean, that's just sad. Can you imagine? And I appreciate the small thing, like could you create something first thing in the morning? Could you create something that's part of the wind down at night? One of the things that I remember that made a big difference, and I'll just share it in case it's helpful for the person listening, is since logistics was the reality, and it was also the source of all of our conflict, the one connection ritual that really changed things was we had a Sunday night calendar meeting. That doesn't exactly sound like a date night, but it became a consistent thing we could do every week that helped us be aligned and helped us coordinate the logistics at one point. Beautiful. You were a team. Yes. And to this day, we do it. That's great. And it's just the smallest of things. And the other thing that I'll, I have to give a huge shout out to Chris that he does that makes a big difference for me is he puts little notes, just kind of like the notebook you have. He'll rip out a page and just put, I love you. And I'll open up my eyeglass case in the middle of the day. And there it is. Or I'll open up my wallet and there it is. Or it is. And I had no idea that he had done that. And so it's kind of this little signal that I'm still here with you, even though I may not be standing next to you. A consistent research finding is that you cannot just focus on conflict as a therapist. You have to work on friendship and intimacy, romance, passion, play, and fun. You have to work on all of that together. It's not enough to just make, you know, conflict better. You really have to bring, you know, the two souls together in a way that is, it brings joy into the relationship. Let me just mention something about your meeting, which is fabulous, doing that as a ritual of connection. One thing that we also talk about is a weekly meeting, which often takes place on Sundays. We call it the State of the Union, right? And so what we suggest is that first you begin with gratitude. You think of something your partner has done that maybe you haven't yet thanked them for, and you express your gratitude and your appreciation to your partner for having done that. You know, so often we take our partners for granted, right? Especially after years of being together. So all of us, however, still need to be seen. We need to be appreciated. And so starting with that is lovely. And then in the middle piece, maybe there is a complaint that you have, you haven't talked about, or maybe you had a little regrettable incident that you need to process, clear the air about that, try and understand what went wrong during that and what to do right next time. And then you end the meeting with another appreciation, another expression of gratitude. I mean, there's nothing better than hearing gratitude as a sign that, look, you're visible, you're important to me, I see who you are, I love what you do, and I want you to know I recognize you, and you're beautiful. And a great question to end the meeting, with is, what can I do next week to make you feel loved? Is that the best question in the world? The best. I know. You guys are so incredible. I don't want to take a break, but I have to hit the pause button so we can give our extraordinary sponsors a little love. And listen, if you're thinking of a friend, a sister, a brother, anyone who's walking on eggshells at home, or keeps replaying the same fight on a loop and you keep hearing it about it, send them this episode. One of the most loving things that you can do for people is to give them a little love. And if you're thinking of a friend, a sister, a brother, is to give them a resource like Dr. Julie and John Gottman. And don't go anywhere, because a little later in the show, the Gottmans are going to walk you step by step through how you can bring up something that you're afraid to talk about without it turning in to a big fight. You do not want to miss this, so stay with me. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And today, you and I are here with Dr. Julie and Dr. John Gottman. They are the world's leading experts on love and what it takes to make a relationship work. And they're teaching you and me everything we need to know about the four things that'll blow up your relationships and what you can do to break these patterns of conflict. I am so excited about the role playing, so let's just jump right back into the next one. I would love to have us just really highlight the warning signs around conflict. And there are four horsemen of the apocalypse in your relationship. What are they? Okay. So the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. Like, you're so selfish, you're so lazy, you're so inconsiderate, thoughtless, whatever. So a characteristic that's bad that you're seeing in your partner, that's criticism, okay? Secondly is contempt. And contempt is the worst one we have. Contempt is like criticism, but you're coming from a place of superiority, looking down your nose at your partner, and you're sneering a little bit. You've got a look of disgust maybe on your face. There's scorn, there's mockery, sometimes sarcasm. is contempt. And contempt is not only the best predictor of relationship demise, but as John was saying, and I'll fine tune it a little bit, the number of times a listener hears contempt in a conflict for 15 minutes predicts how many infectious illnesses they're going to have in the next four years. Right. Because it is sulfuric acid for the immune system. Yeah, it's a big deal. The third horseman is defensiveness. We all love defensiveness. Everybody's defensive unless they have an ego of a rock. I haven't met a rock lately. So defensiveness gets manifested as either counterattack, as we described, or whining. Innocent victim. Oh, I did too clean the kitchen. What do you mean? Okay. I love whining. It's great. And then there's stonewalling. And stonewalling is completely shutting down. But it's not shutting down for just a few seconds, you know, to come up with the right phrase. It's shutting down completely for minutes, minutes, minutes, long minutes, maybe hours, at a time. At a time. And what brilliant John here and his colleague Bob Levinson discovered with physiology is that when a person was flooded, they were in fight or flight. Their heart rates were often over 100 beats a minute as they sat there. And they started stonewalling. And they started stonewalling in order to go inside and try and soothe themselves. Because being in fight or flight. In fight or flight, while you're sitting there, it feels awful. It makes you sick. So that turtle thing that Chris does, right? Yes. You know, and he's just starting to calm himself down. But to the person speaking to him, it looks like he doesn't care. Correct. You know, and he's tuned out. You can't reach him. Well, now I'm yelling. I'm yelling because he's like not responding. That's right. And it makes it worse. Yes. I can see that. Well, the other thing is that Bob and I also, as we kept following couples, we found there was a group of couples, who didn't do the four horsemen. But when they talked about the events of the day, there was no connection. And they even went out of their way to show that they were bored with their partner talking about their day. So it's not that they had all this negative stuff. They didn't have very much positivity. Not very much interest in one another. Not very much shared humor or affection. And those couples divorced an average of 16 years after the wedding. Wow. They last longer. But, you know, it's still disastrous. I would love to go deeper into all four of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship. Could you describe for the person who's listening right now, what do you mean by flooding? So if somebody's never heard this term, and they're not quite, and, you know, I think there's a, it's kind of obvious if you're like the stonewalling, or rather you shut down and you're like the turtle. Or you're a volcano like me. But can you describe what does it mean to have this emotional flooding? And what are the, what are the kind of personality types of flooding, if you will, so the person can see themselves as we unpack the four different horsemen, if that makes sense? Sure, sure. So first of all, there is no correlation between personality type and flooding. Anybody can. Okay. Anybody, first of all. And what does that mean when you use that term flooded? Okay, so what it means is that you are so overwhelmed by what feels like facing a saber-toothed tiger. So what's happening is you're hearing what feels like an attack. It may not be one, but it feels like one. And because it feels like an attack, right? And it's a dangerous attack. It's threatening. It sets off this fight or flight response. And so men who experience this and get flooded are going to look like this. They give themselves permission to look away, to look away. But a female doesn't typically. And here's why. Because, you know, as women from, you know, this high, we are trained to look away. We are trained to relate to others, to nurture others, to take care of others, right? To be sensitive to others' feelings. So we don't give ourselves permission to break contact and look away. So what flooding for a woman looks like is very different. It looks like this. And you're just kind of staring. Nobody's home. No one's home. Nobody's home. Blank face. That's right. You may be meeting the other person's eyes, but nobody's home. You've taken yourself out. I just realized my daughter does that. Ah. When I get, like, scary, that she… A deer in the headlights. Yes. Doesn't know what to do. That's right. Yeah. Okay. That was very helpful. Because you're right. If… And I know that this is all based on your research, that for a lot of men, it's the crossed arms. Mm-hmm. It's the looking away. It's the walking out of the room. Yeah. Or going to make a drink as you're walking, like, following them, yelling at them. Mm. Yes. Yeah. And it feels kind of awful in your body. You know, it's almost like having a panic attack. The breathing is more shallow and more rapid, and it really feels like there's no way to win here. Yeah. I mean, you just have to escape. Yes. I can see that. Yeah. And you're escaping your body or the room. Mm-hmm. That's right. That was super helpful. Let's dig into each of the four horsemen and start with criticism. Okay. How is criticism defined in the research? And I'd love to have you role play… Sure. …an example and teach us how we can shift out of it… Okay. …when we're in the middle of it. Let me just mention that the shifting… Okay. …that you are pointing out, which is very astute, is what we call repair. Okay. So, making a repair during a conversation is a great way to step aside from those four horsemen and make the conversation flow better. Okay. Okay. So, again, I think the definition of it would be blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. That's what it is. So, let me start. Okay. Go ahead. I've been meaning to talk to you because I think that I have something to teach you. What do you mean? Well, you know, I noticed that, you know, you kind of get upset when the house is in some kind of disarray. And I don't have that problem. You know, I can concentrate really well, you know, whatever's going on around me. Mm-hmm. So, I can kind of teach you to focus your mind more because I think your mind is kind of weak, you know. I think your mind is not strong. You think my mind is weak? Yeah, I think you have a weak mind and I can help you strengthen your mind. Honey, I got better grades in college than you did. What? I don't have a weak mind. What are you talking about? Well, I'm just trying to be helpful to you. You know, I'm trying to help you strengthen your mind so it's more like my mind. I tell you what, go help the dog, okay? Not me. Okay, so that's criticism. All right, got it. Let's show them up here. Let's do the antidote for each of the horses. Yeah, so how do I do that? We're going to, so I'll make a repair. Okay. Okay. Okay, so why don't you pick up. Yeah, you know, like I was saying, you know, I really can help you focus your mind better and be much more like me, you know. Honey. Yeah. I need to tell you, I'm really feeling defensive right now. You are? I don't want to be defensive, but I feel. I feel that way. The way that you're describing me feels to me like a put-down. Oh. Can you say what you want to say in different words? Well, okay. I think it would be great if, even when there were a lot of books around and papers around, that you were okay with that. You didn't get upset. Whew. Tall order. Well, I tell you what, I, I hear you and I know that I probably come across as a nag sometimes. I'm sure I do. Uh, I would say that. Yeah. Yeah. I bet you would. Um, but I, you know, I think I can spend some of the time feeling comfortable with everything scattered around. However, I think you probably know me well enough to understand that when my environment feels chaotic just to me it may not be to you but it is to me yeah then i get all discombobulated inside i feel really disorganized and so all the papers and so on contribute unfortunately to my having that feeling i wish i wasn't like that but i am because i i i think that a house ought to be a little bit messy to be comfortable yeah i know you do my mom used to clean clean the place to with an inch of its life you know i love your mom and she put plastic on all the furniture she was crazy that's true i remember yeah yeah okay well you don't have to sit on plastic okay it's okay yeah all right beautiful and i saw you repaired by using i that's right i feel that's right i feel defensive so when you're getting criticized saying i feel defensive right instead of going defensive right right instead of counterattacking yes or stop criticizing me yeah exactly i feel defensive that's the repair for criticism yep got it beautiful on that note how about we take a quick break and let's let our sponsors share a few words with you and don't go anywhere coming up the gotmans are going to talk about what you need to start doing to turn toward your partner and the mistakes that you are making in the micro moments that are pushing your partner away we can fix that and the gotmans will show you how when we return so stay with me welcome back it's your buddy mel robbins and today you experts on relationships, Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman. I told you you would fall in love with them. And aren't you in love with them? I know I am. All right. I'm so glad we're back. Let's just jump right back in. Let's move on to contempt. Okay. You want to define that one, honey? Yeah. Contempt has this air of superiority. You know, I'm better than you. Can you show us what contempt looks and sounds like and how it is different than criticism? You can't do anything right, can you? I mean, you know, even when you go shopping, you spend too much money. You know, you spend too much money on clothes. So what? So what? Well, we're trying to save for a down payment on a house. And you're trying to save for a down payment on a house. And you're ruining the whole thing. You just spent it. I'm ruining the whole thing. Right. Right. How dare you? I mean, you just went out and bought a Porsche, for God's sakes. And I'm I need that for my work. I need that. I wouldn't spend it if I didn't need it for my work. To take it back. I need to take it back. Okay. So that's one example. So it's judgment. But from a place of superiority. Eye-rolling. And be like. Well, I was thinking of an example that one of our therapists talked about. Seeing this couple. And she was being contemptuous. And he said, do you think you're better than me? And she said, better than I. Boom. Wow. Isn't that a killer? Correct their grammar. That's a great way. I have a couple in my life that's uncomfortable to be around. Because as one person's talking, the other one is like rolling their eyes. That's right. As they leave the room, they complain about them. And why is contempt the most harmful? And let's start there. Why is it? It's really a murder attempt at the person's sense of self. And the Jewish Talmud talks about it as murder. You know, you're destroying the other person's sense of self. And you're saying, you are worthless. And that's the worst attack. It's not just something you do that I don't like. But I don't like you. Right. I don't value you. I call it character assassination. That's what it is. And do people that are contemptuous. Are they able to recognize it? Not always. Usually, the listener is the one who recognizes it. The other person usually has a pretty heavy sense of entitlement that they deserve to say that. But let me also add something about why it's so destructive. That a lot of people don't really think about and acknowledge. But none of us. None of us got parented perfectly. Right? None of us got taught with absolute appreciation in school. So, all of us have at base at least a part of ourselves that's insecure. That needs to be loved. That needs to be cared about. And some people like to say that that's immature. Or, you know, you're just not a grown-up. And I would like to say to them, no, that's wrong. We all have that inside ourselves. We don't lose that core of insecurity. And the need to be looked at with care, with love, with understanding, to be spoken to with respect, even admiration. Right. None of us lose that. We just add layers on top of it as we grow older. But it's still inside there and it can still get hit if somebody expresses contempt. That makes a lot of sense. So, if you're the one that's getting stepped on and demeaned and interrupted and corrected by your partner, how do you repair this? Okay. So, here's how I would repair. Let's say he's just been contemptuous. So, you know, John, there's no way that I can hear what you're saying right now because I feel so insulted by what you're saying. I don't know if that's your intention or not, but I feel like shrinking away. I want to just disappear. I don't want that. It really, I feel really hurt by what you're saying. So, I wish you would flip what you just said on its head and tell me what you do want or you do like rather than this wave of negativity I'm getting. I feel like I'm judging you. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's what it looks like. And when you get somebody that says, I am judging you. you now you're like realizing okay okay well that's okay so let's say i am you know i'm just trying to give you feedback honey the effect of the feedback and the way that you're giving it to me pushes me away it makes me want to run away from you because it hurts so much feedback i can hear if you're telling me what you do want not what you don't okay or what you don't like good point like amazingly helpful yeah i love that i feel insulted i feel hurt because what ends up happening when it's you that is getting stepped on is you tend to flood that's right what to do that's right yes that's right yeah respect is is as important as affection you respect is as important as infection yeah especially for women i think you know today women need to feel that their partner values and respects them and as much as they respect anybody so one of my new year's resolutions was let me try to treat julie with the kind of respect that i treated my father with and i had to work on that and become self-aware of ways in which i was not communicating respect for example it takes her longer to get ready than it does me so you know i would get in the car and wait for her and while i was in the car i was saying what heck why does it take her so you know by the time she came out to the car i had worked myself into a frenzy you know of anger about this thing and you know instead i sat in the car and said you know she there's a lot of really important stuff that she sees that i don't see at all and she needs to get those things done before she feels ready to leave the house So, I think I'll just read my novel whenever she comes out, you know. This was an issue in our marriage, too. Yeah? Chris would be sitting in the pickup in the driveway, running. And I'm still putting my makeup on, and then I'm running around the house looking for my keys because I forgot that he's driving. And when I would then get in the car, he would be really frustrated. Yeah. And I'd get an earful about it, and now I try a little harder, and he's usually listening to an audio book when I get in the pickup truck that's been running for 11 minutes. I've shaved, like, four minutes off. He is the best ever. The third horseman of the apocalypse of your relationship is defensiveness. What is defensiveness, and why is it so automatic, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, it's just— Like, you just kind of feel like you should defend yourself. What should you do instead? You know, that lawyer that I talked about? Yeah. He was amazing at not getting defensive when his wife was criticizing him. And he really was saying, she's got an important point. I just don't know what it is. I have to help her get to it, you know. But I'm sure she's got something she really wants to tell me that's important. And he had that attitude, very respectful, you know. And I think that's the attitude you've got to take. Instead of saying, I'm innocent, you know, I have no responsibility in this. I'm pretty much perfect. If there's anybody defective, it's you. That's a really bad attitude. Because you're not going to listen if you have that attitude. I would love to hear you guys' role play. And if you could do an example where one of you wishes the other one would either lose weight, or take a little better care of themselves, or, you know, get a trainer, or actually pick up the weights that we bought last year and use them. You know what I'm saying? And then the other ones, because I think this is something that is. Oh, boy. Yes. That's a hot issue. Yeah, it's a hot issue. Yeah. Okay. So let's say you criticize me, you know, for, you know, having a tummy. But you're really worried about my health. It's really. Yeah. Okay. Oh, let's see. John, I need to talk to you about something. All right. You know, I know that you love sitting and reading your books. Right. Especially your mathematic books. Yeah, right. Which I cannot understand one page of. Yeah. But, honey, I'm, you know, you really, really, really should go to the gym more often. You really should. You're only going to the gym, like, once a month. You know, it's not going to do anything for your body. That's, I mean, you know, your body's starting to get a little kind of flabby or something. I mean, just that belly is going out further and further. Well, I think I'm fine. You think you're fine? Yeah. Honey, the thing that I'm worried about, and this is true. This is true for both of us, is that we're both getting older, right? And, you know, you've read all the newspaper articles about being fit really adds years to your life, being healthy. Exercising is one of the best things you can do. I just read this article about a guy who's a long-distance runner, and he had a heart attack while he was running. And he was 40 years old. So I don't think exercise is such a great thing. Yes, but honey. A lot of these athletes are pretty stupid. Oh, sweetie. What they found is that there was a heart defect there. It wasn't the running that caused it. It was the heart defect. But. You don't think he overdid it? No, I don't think so. But if you don't exercise, I'm really afraid that you may suffer a heart attack. Right? Yeah. I mean, I don't want to lose you. I do not want to lose you. And so I'm wondering, how can I support you going to the gym more often? Or does that feel too controlling? No, I think, what if we went together? Love it. Would you be willing to make the time? Yeah. If I can swim. Sure. I like to swim. Swimming is great. Yeah. Swimming is wonderful. I haven't been in a long time. You haven't? Yeah. You want to? You want to do it again? Yeah. Well, yay. All right. That would be terrific. Okay. All right. I'll work on it. Okay. Yeah. How do you tell someone that it's not that you're worried about them, it's that you're losing interest in them? No. Okay. That's a good one. Because I think the exercise thing is a big one. Yeah. And. I know. You know, like really taking care of yourself. And yes, there's the, I'm afraid something's that's going to happen. But it's also like, I actually am pulling away from you because I'm not proud to be with you or I am losing my attraction to you. Okay. I have something I want to talk to you about that is super sensitive. Uh-oh. I know. Let me get my notebook. You better get your notebook. All right. And let me preface it. Let me preface it by saying, I adore you. I love you. I love you so, so, so much. It's nice to hear. Yeah. Yeah. But. Oh, it is a but. Yep. Here comes the sensitive part. I don't know exactly what's happening, but as you've been gaining weight, becoming more of a sphere instead of a triangle, I don't know, my libido is going down. My sexual interest is declining. Oh, that sucks. Well, it does because I love you and I really, really want to express that physically to you. But at the same time, I really, really loved it when you were working out and I could feel the muscles in your back, in your shoulders. Your arms. It felt really wonderful. So, I wrote down, lose weight and get more sex. That's a possibility. All right. Okay. What do you think? Yeah. Would you like that? I'd like more sex. Would you like to get more sex? I'd like more sex. Because if about 20 pounds melted away, I bet you my sexual interest would go up. I can get that zipped down. Great idea. Yeah. Okay. Ta-da. I'm sorry I'm laughing, but you two are adorable and we have all been in a relationship like that. The fourth horseman that's going to destroy your relationship potentially is stonewalling. Right. We've talked a little bit about it, but just so we're clear about what it is. Okay. You know, we actually didn't understand it when we first saw it. Okay. And we brought men back. We brought men back in and said, what was going through your mind right there? So we got this sort of internal monologue that guys were going through and they really were saying, this is hopeless. I just got to, I got to endure this. I got to get through this and don't say anything because whatever you say, you're going to make it worse. And, you know, I'm just going to go get a, get a beer and watch. Watch the game, you know, and not think about this. Let me get out of here. That's what they were thinking, you know, and it was sad, you know, it was really like I'm overwhelmed, you know, I'm in a war zone, you know, and there, there aren't any shelters. Yeah. Can you give us a example of what this sort of sounds like in a relationship? When one, when, you know, the man or typically the guy. But often it can be the, the, the woman can be 15% of the time it was a woman stonewalling. Right. Well, let's, let's do you stonewalling. Okay. Okay. Uh, so I don't understand why you haven't paid the bills. I mean, the bills have got to be paid. Why aren't you paying the bills, man? They're sitting there on the table. This is not a big deal. I just, I don't want to talk about this. John. It's a huge deal. You're going to ruin our credit. If you don't pay the bills, would you please pay the bills? So what are you doing now? You're pretending I don't exist. You're just blocking me out. Honey, pay the frigging bills. What's the big deal? God. There. That's what it looked like because we've all seen it and experienced it. And if you were listening and not watching this episode, as Julie was, you know, basically telling him what to do and criticizing him, and then the huff at the end is contempt. Yes. Right? Right. That exclamation point of, you, John, crossed your arms and looked down and looked away. And it is this act of, like, there's nothing to do. I just need to endure this until she shuts up. Right. And that's the only option here. Yeah. And also, if I say anything, it'll get worse. Yes. It's bad now, but if I say anything, I'll make it worse. How the heck do you repair something like that if you're the stonewaller and you've got somebody who's critical of you? Okay. Like, can the stonewaller, like, can you teach a stonewaller to repair? Because a stonewaller does not trust that it's going to get better if I say anything. Okay. Don't forget. Don't forget. Yes. That what goes along with stonewalling is a heart rate over 100 beats a minute. Oh, because it's true. It looks like you're calm. Yeah. Yes, it does. But because John and Bob had their couples hooked up to physiology that measured heart rate, we saw those heart rates, like, through the ceiling, 140, 150, and so on. 10 seconds before. 10 seconds before they started stonewalling. I never, ever, ever looked at stonewalling as somebody who's panicked and overwhelmed. Right. I've always seen this as a power play. Yes. That you're denying me attention and you are trying to just block me out as a way to control me. Exactly. And that is wrong. Stonewalling is an attempt to self-soothe. That's right. Right. Going inside. Okay. She can't touch me when I watch the game. So the game starts in 10 minutes. I'm going to go watch the game. I'll have a beer. I'll calm down. Yeah. So let me tell you. I can't do anything now. I don't. Yeah. Let me tell you what the antidote is. Okay. It's not saying something exactly. The only antidote is to do something to calm your physiology. Calm down. Okay. So we've seen the antidote. It is you tell your partner you need to take a break, that you're flooded. You need to take a break. And you tell your partner when you will come back to continue the conversation. And typically, the minimum a break takes is 20 to 30 minutes. The most. Would be 24 hours. Okay. What do you do during the break? You do not think about the fight. Because if you keep thinking about the fight and, oh, I should say this when I go back, you'll stay flooded. Because you're still hooked into the fight. That is elevating your heart rate. You need to do something else, like reading a book, reading a magazine, watching TV, playing with the puppy. Even going for a run is fine. Taking a walk, doing your email. Something that takes your mind off the fight. Okay. So that those stress hormones can metabolize out of your body. You see? So, and it's especially hard for guys to do this. I would imagine. Because, you know, Bob Levinson did a study of startle. You know, you have a gun, a blank. Gun, go off behind somebody. Women feel fear. Men feel a desire to get even. Get angry. Get angry, get even with the experimenter. They feel, you know, rage about having been startled. And so that maintains the physiological arousal. And it was probably adaptive in our, you know, ancestors' time. To stay physiologically aroused when you're hunting or protecting the tribe. But during a conversation with your lover, it's not helpful to stay physiologically aroused. It's counterproductive. Can't listen, right? So it's a challenge for men during the break to really distract themselves and do something entirely different. But the big breakthrough is to utter the words, I am emotionally. Emotionally shut down or I'm emotionally. I'm flooded. I'm flooded right now. I'm just, I'm flooded. I'm flooded. I'm flooded. I need to take a break. And, you know, the good thing about saying I'll be back in 30 minutes is that a lot of people, when you say I'm going to go take a break and they go, the other person feels rejected, thinks, oh, great. We're never going to get back to this. Topic. We're never going to solve this. We're never going to talk about it. Right. So saying, let's come back in a half an hour when I'm calmer and let's try again. Makes a huge difference. It makes a lot of sense. Why is, can we just move on? Why is that one of the biggest mistakes that you can make after a blog? Flooding? You mean? Oh, can we just saying that? Can we just move on? Oh, let's not talk about this. Let's not talk about it. Let's not talk about this. Oh, God, that's so terrible. Well, the problem in the relationship, when you say, let's just not talk about this anymore. It's another way of saying, whatever you're thinking isn't important. So let's just drop it. You're not important. What a message, right? It's a terrible message. So that's why you don't do it. Yes. That is, you're absolutely right. And then there's a loss of trust. Right. Which is really damaging to the relationship. Right. I can't trust you to really keep your promises. Or be there for me. Or be there for me. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about turning toward each other. Oh, so important. So important. So that's something that one of my graduate students, Janice Driver, really noticed in the apartment lab. There'd be these small moments when one person would try to get their partner's attention or interest or a conversation or show them something they were reading. And the cameras turned to the other person and we recorded the response. And they either responded, you know, or, you know, turned toward, we called it, or they didn't respond at all, turning away, or they responded irritably, turning against. And what Janice discovered was that. When you look back at the couples who divorced six years earlier, their average percent of turning toward their partner's bids for connection was 33%. And the couples who are still married, look six years earlier, their average is 86%. Wow. Rather than 33%. So these small moments are really important. Plus, she also discovered the secret to having a sense of humor during conflict. Was having a lot of history of turning toward, building an emotional bank account of connecting. Then people had a sense of humor about themselves during conflict. I want to make sure that as you were listening to John say that, that you got the very helpful distinction of the three things that people do in those micro moments. And obviously what we want to learn to do is turn toward one another. Right. But the thing that a lot of people do. Is you either turn away or you turn against. Right. Right. And I think it's a very useful tool to ask yourself, am I turning against them when they're trying to hold my hand or engage in a conversation or tell about their day? Am I turning away from them? So what turning away means? A lot of people misinterpret that. They think it means, oh, you turn your body away. No, it doesn't at all. It means you completely. Completely ignore what they've said. Oh. You ignore it. So let's say I'm reading a book and John calls to me from the kitchen, Julie. I ignore him. I keep reading the book. He says again, honey, do you know where the big fork is? I ignore him. As if he never said anything. That's turning away. Turning against would be, would you stop interrupting me? I'm trying to read. That's the hostility, you see, that comes in turning against. Wow. They're really small moments, but the probability that a person will rebid after their partner has turned away is 22%. So only 22% of the time do they say. "Honey, where's the fork?" Or, you know, listen to this. They kind of crumple a little bit when their partner turns away. Well, of course. Yeah. You know what it reminds me of? You know what a sea anemone looks like? You know, it's this little circle of a being in the water, in the ocean, that has little tiny fingers. And when it's relaxed, all those fingers are spread out towards the center of this little circle. Yeah, like if you saw the movie Finding Nemo, all the baby nemos are in one. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so if you poke that sea anemone gently, all those fingers pull back. And then, very slowly, it'll start stretching, stretching, stretching, stretching again. Let's say you poke again. That sea anemone is not going to stretch out. It's fingers. It's going to hide. That's what happens. Good image. That makes a ton of sense. And I would just love to have you speak directly to the person who's been with us this whole time, because there's a lot that you have shared. There are so many tools and frameworks, things that you can put to use right now, and also things that you can really reflect on in yourself. Because you can't change them. You can use these tools to connect more deeply. And to strengthen your relationship. But ultimately, you can't change them. But a lot of what has happened for me with your work is it's made me understand the things that I'm doing that I need to change that can strengthen the relationship. And the things that I can proactively do differently that build better connection. And so I'd love to have you just speak to the person directly. And if they take everything to heart, but they want to do one thing right after they finish listening, what's the most important action to take today? Well, I would say that when you realize conflict has a goal, which is mutual understanding, and what you need to do is postpone persuasion and problem solving until you can really hear what your partner is saying. I would say that when you realize conflict has a goal, which is mutual understanding, and what you need to do is postpone persuasion and problem solving until you can really hear what your partner is saying.