365. The BEST advice for managing ADHD in your 20s ft. Chris Wang

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Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of your 20s. Today we're going to talk about ADHD. Getting diagnosed with ADHD as an adult can feel like both a revelation and a bit of a reckoning. It's this moment when everything about how you've moved through the world probably makes a lot more sense, but you also now have to learn all these new ways to manage. That is exactly the experience of today's guest Chris Wang. She's the founder of Shimmer, it's an ADHD coaching platform that has helped thousands of adults better understand their brains and she herself was diagnosed in her 20s after years of feeling like she was kind of doing life wrong and the thing is her story is actually not a unique one. I've heard from so many of you who have had the same experience been through the same process. So today I wanted to talk to her about practical strategies for managing your time, energy, focus, managing ADHD in your 20s, especially when traditional productivity advice maybe hasn't ever worked for you. I also want to explore love and dating with ADHD, why relationships can feel so intense, so confusing or addictive, how to handle romantic rejection, but also just rejection in general, and how to feel like you're not too much in a world that is asking everybody to be a lot smaller. I love this conversation, so without further ado, let's get into it. Chris Wang, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me, you're an absolute icon. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do? I feel like I gave a little introduction before, but I'm like you can say it in your own words and the better words probably. I don't know if it's better, but I'm Chris. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Shimmer. I am also a late diagnosed ADHDer, so I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 28, which I know will get into that a little bit, but it's been a whirlwind of a journey navigating that diagnosis while creating Shimmer, which is a behavioral support platform. And as of date, we've done 75,000 coaching sessions, which is really exciting. Just thinking about how many people with ADHD have been a part of our journey and many of them are late diagnosed as well. And the last piece is along the journey. This is very ADHD as well, usually things kind of unfold. I have become an ADHD creator as well. So I started off by posting just my first series was ADHD Girl Hacks. So posting hacks that I've gleaned through my coaching journey and also those of the thousands of other folks who have gone through our platform, but since then have done ADHD Girl works, ADHD Girl dates and ADHD Girl feels. So I know we'll get into tips and things like that afterwards, but it's been a little bit of a journey since that diagnosis. I'm really excited to hear about ADHD Girl dates. That's like something I'm particularly interested in hearing, but this definitely won't surprise you. I've been working with me. How many people reach out to me with a similar story? I had all of these difficulties, but I actually like sometimes even a lack of difficulties when I was at school. And then suddenly I became an adult and all the things that people had ignored or that I worked really hard to mask, kind of came to the surface. And here I was at 27, 28, 29, basically discovering a new aspect of my identity and of how I operate. Can you tell us a little bit about your story and maybe like what it felt like or how it was growing up. Did you feel different? And when you maybe realized that like there was a label for this or a series of symptoms that could kind of explain it? Yeah. So I will first preface by saying that people's ADHD looks really different and I'm glad you're asking for individual stories because I think sometimes it's very easy to hear a story and not hear yourself in it or hear a story and do hear yourself in it and feel like you either don't have ADHD or have ADHD. So I think it's really important to learn about the symptoms, learn about the different ways the symptoms can coexist with each other and also go through that process yourself. And I also will want to say if your listeners haven't really dug into ADHD, there's also three types of ADHD and I'll share which one I am as well. But there's the hyperactive, impulsive ADHD, which are folks who as a kid, we're kind of bouncing off of walls, super talkative, probably getting into trouble and as adults generally won't look as disruptive but maybe it's chatty, maybe it's more internally being more hyperactive. And so that's kind of on the hyperactive impulsive side and then there's the inattentive side which is the other type that generally a lot of the times women will have and girls will have which a lot of the times when you're younger will be internally presenting as well. The daydreamers, the ones who maybe as an adult struggle to follow conversations or get lost in your own daydreams in your head and so that inattentive ADHD or will look really different from the hyperactive ADHD or and the third type which is the type that I am fortunately or unfortunately is the combined type. So that's when you have symptoms from both sides and so when you meet someone who's has ADHD they could look really different if they just fall within those free buckets but also if they have other sorts of intersectionalities and co-occurrences with other mental health conditions. So I just wanted to preface that. And so for me I have all the most of the symptoms but specifically the ones that were the most salient when I was a kid was definitely on the hyperactive side. I was super talkative, I was constantly distracting people around me, I was always being told I was too loud or just to sit down or be quiet, just constantly in the way. I think as I grew up I've been thinking about this a lot. I think I've heard a lot of stories of folks who there are self-confidence and anxiety just really increases over time especially as girls and so there's actually the stat that people with ADHD hear 20,000 more negative messages by the time that they're 10 years old in comparison to their non-ADHD peers which is pretty significant and you can imagine especially if you don't have the right support system or other ways that you feel confidence that that would yield just a lower self perception, lower goals, and just the way that you move through life is going to be really different. And so getting support and getting at least awareness and acknowledgement that you are different and you will navigate things differently as a kid. I think it's super, super important. I was lucky in that a mix of, I think being Asian and having a really strong emphasis for my parents on grades and being smart, I did get good grades and that helped me build a sense of confidence when I was younger. So even though I was getting kicked out of class all the time, I got suspended. The impact on me as a kid actually wasn't as strong and you'll hear all sorts of different stories. I think for me, when we think about diagnosis, the impact didn't get really strong for me until I became an adult and all of those kind of structures and goals kind of fell off. So it was actually when I first started my business and I, when we were in the pandemic and so everything was online and I was not able to get a lot of that visual and physical stimulation from other people. And then two, I was an entrepreneur and not only was I creating structures for myself, but I was expected to create structures for other people as well. And that for me was when everything started kind of crumbling and it took me that long to actually realize that all of these symptoms were related to ADHD and a big part of that also came from my cultural upbringing of not talking about mental health and not talking about ADHD since I was a kid. And there's, I think it's called the rule of seven where is a marketing thing where a consumer needs to see seven ads. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's kind of similar with my ADHD. I had a friend told me, tell me maybe I have ADHD because he has ADHD. I had Instagram, the for you page was getting at me and so I really just started seeing it from here and there. So it was a very non-linear journey to finally thinking, oh, maybe it's this. And then once you then you go down the rabbit hole or I went down the rabbit hole and started researching and that's what led me to my diagnosis. So again, like as I said, I think everyone, I've heard so many stories by now. Like everyone's story looks so different and depending on your culture and your other intersectionalities and also just the cards that you were really dealt with in the support that you had throughout your life. It's so interesting like going back to what you said about the negative messaging that kids with ADHD will get. But also how some of them are actually highly functional in schooling environments. Like when you said that you got that you got such great grades, like I'm thinking about my best friend who also got a like a diagnosis for ADHD and I remember sitting with her and her mom doing the test. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like the scaling thing. Like it's like maybe 20 pages long. Yeah. And her mom being like you really didn't struggle with that. You really didn't struggle. Like no, that doesn't describe you at all. And Erin being like no, but I like you saw the outside of that. This was the inside of that. And how hard it was and also like you know her day was so organized. She had like 20 different activities per day. There was always something to like keep her preoccupied, but also a structure within which you know, it was so routine focused. My question around that is do you see a lot of people be like I cannot possibly have this just sort of because I don't look a certain way or because you know I'm not just I'm not in this description and all this idea of of what this is. Yeah, 100 percent. I think one thing that is that woman here a lot is that you're too smart to have ADHD. And that happens as an adult, happens as a kid and ADHD has nothing to do with intelligence. There are people who are have higher IQs with ADHD and lower. It doesn't, it's not correlated. And also like with your friend that's something I hear too as well. There's this one example I always give if you ask someone with ADHD, how often do you lose their keys? They often say I lose it multiple times a day or they say I never lose my keys. And you say okay, well why they say because I have this very elaborate system and build the entire system as to why they don't lose their keys. So both those people have ADHD. It's just that they've dealt with that differently. So intelligence is one is definitely one. Another one is woman who have presented with inattentive symptoms because they weren't in the way of their teacher or their parent. And they oftentimes have been told that they don't have ADHD because we haven't really understood until recently what that diagnosis looks like in woman, what it looks like in girls. And so that's changing now. And a lot of the times now with millennials as parents knowing more about ADHD being able to see this in their kid and then being able to advocate for their kid with their doctors or their other teachers has been really helpful in this journey. Like we see a lot of members come to us either who are diagnosed because their kid was diagnosed and just generally millennials or people the other way around who they were diagnosed and then they're like I'm starting to see these symptoms in my kid. How do I best support them? How do I make sure that they don't go through the thing that the experience that I went through? And I think it's so interesting because I'm sure you've seen this. There's all these articles. Everybody has ADHD now. Actually, let me before I say what I'm going to say, what are your thoughts on those type of castle, those kind of articles or headlines? Yeah. So I think it's a little bit problematic because but I get where it comes from when you hear people say their symptoms out of context, it sounds like, oh yeah, I lose my keys too. Right? I also stubbed my toe on the chair. I also struggle to get organized. I struggle to focus. So these are all universal symptoms and especially in an attention economy today, people are feeling those more strongly. And so I think that there's a couple of things here. Like one, people with ADHD face those symptoms way more severely and every single day all day. And imagine if you can imagine you feeling that once in a while, imagine if someone was feeling it all day and it just becomes like, let's say you have a plan to go to a meeting that day and then you end up spending your entire morning going back and forth for getting like 17 things and like what that does to you when you arrive at that meeting and you're not confident, you feel like you're dumb and then you watch the meeting. And so there's just so many effects that are just they compound on each other. And so I think what people don't understand is the compounding effect of the severity and the frequency because the other thing about the ADHD diagnosis is that you have to have impairment in your life for you to actually get that diagnosis. So that's a part of the diagnosis criteria and has to show up before you're 12. That's how the DSM 5 is currently structured. So that's one thing. And then the other thing I think just from a human perspective, I feel like if you can resonate with people instead of saying everyone has ADHD, I would challenge people to think, okay, I can resonate with that feeling and I imagine if they're feeling this all the time and way more intensely and it's impacting their life instead of dismissing them through that resonance, it should we should take more an approach of empathy of like, okay, well, I can understand a little bit. I can only imagine how hard this is for you. And so taking that, I think that mindset shift is something that a lot of folks especially on the internet, I would challenge them to try to think of it in that way. I also just think like anytime I see those articles, that's just factually incorrect. Like not everybody has ADHD. And I think it's one of those things where there's a specific kind of person who like makes everybody's health their business and like everybody's lives their business. And I think it's especially like an older generation who are like, I don't want to talk about this. Like everybody is the same. Why can't it just be like as it once was and when they hear stories about ADHD and the media and the news, it's like when you hear about playing crashes, right? It makes you believe that they're a lot more common and makes you believe that this is going to be, this is actually a problem. And they don't actually have all the full information like this, all these cognitive biases that I'm making it seem like a fake epidemic. And it must must be like such a struggle as you know someone with ADHD yourself to be like, you don't know when I went through to get this diagnosis. It wasn't like I just went in and said, I think I have this. And okay, now give me the label. Like can you talk a little bit more about how that diagnosis maybe actually helped you understand yourself better and maybe was actually like as you said a long time coming. Yeah. So I think one of the biggest things for me and is for a lot of our members is that pre-diagnosis, everything about you that you didn't know yet was related to ADHD, you just attribute it to your personality or you attribute it to you as a human as like your core human. So for example, I used, I always just thought I was a bad kid. I was like, I'm a bad kid. I'm a bad influence. Makes sense that other my kid, my friends, parents don't want me to hang out with them. Like I didn't even question these things. They were just facts about me. And now having this diagnosis, being able to look back and say like, okay, I wasn't a bad kid. Like these were the things that I was struggling with. This is why and this is probably what I needed in the time to be able to be supported. But also going forward. So I like, I'm saying with the coaching method, all right, G, I'm very future oriented. I think it's important to understand the past and sometimes it helps untangle those things to rewrite your identity. But for me going forward, it's also about understanding what comes from my age to so I can better communicate around it and communicate with myself so that I don't feel like a bad person, but also communicate with the people around me to have the right language. So it doesn't sound like excuses or I'm just like, "Oh, I'm just, I'm just always late. I can't do anything about it." So it's not about that. It's more of like, "Okay, well, I just want you to know that because of my ADHD symptoms, it's hard for me to be on time, these are some things that I'm trying to do to mitigate that. These are some things that if it's not too much for you, maybe you can do this to help me with this process as well." And so it really gives you that language and that makes it especially in a partnership about like, "You, me," and then there's ADHD, right? Like we're talking about how we can solve for this thing. And I'm taking responsibility for my part, but I'm also asking as a partner if you can be able to support me in that instead of just being like tied to an identity that you're not sure what is you and what is ADHD. So I think for me that's been one of the biggest pieces. And then I think the other piece is around just understanding what my strengths and weaknesses are with the lens of ADHD. Not so I can fix all the weaknesses, but more so that I can put myself in situations where I'm leveraging my strengths more. And that's been the main part of the journey that I've been on with coaching. And a lot of our members are on with coaching as well as really that that reframe to place yourself in better situations and communicate better rather than just thinking, "Oh, there's all these things that are bad about me that I need to fix." Well, this kind of brings me to this proactive approach to ADHD that you talk about. Speak me through this specific perspective. Because as I understand it, you know, we've gone back to the history of like what it would maybe have been like to be a kid who has a undiagnosed ADHD and you're cold and you're since and you're cold annoying. And as you said, you know, parents don't want their kids to hang out with you. Like, you know, you're scolded all the time. Probably when you get an ADHD diagnosis, it would be very easy for you to think of it as a weakness. You like to think of it as a strength. Talk me through that a little bit more. Yeah, I think it's a it's such a fine balance and it's a really big sticking point in the ADHD community, I think, on one end. There's the extremely deficit-driven approach of I have ADHD, I have all these things that are wrong with me and I need to fix all of them. That is not the mental model I described to, but also on the other end, there's the superpower model, which I think that borders on toxic positivity when you say that ADHD as a whole is a super power and a lot of ADHDers in the community have an allergic reaction to that with good reason because it undermines the support that is required for people with ADHD. If everyone just believes that we're all superheroes because we have ADHD, then we won't get the right support, the right accommodations that we need from one word, child to one word, adult. So I paint the two extremes because there are a lot of people who sit on each end of that extreme. I think it's important to take a balanced approach and it's the approach that we take at Shimmer as well where you do have challenges as a person with ADHD and those challenges are important to be aware of, but it doesn't mean you need to solve all of them. You don't need to sit there saying, I have bad memory, I need to solve that problem, I need to train my brain to have better memory because I'm never going to have great memory. That's just not going to happen for me and that's okay, I accept that. And instead, it's contextual so maybe I don't want to be in a job where I'm playing jeopardy or whatever. Never quiet. Yeah, exactly. And so there's other ways to approach it. But then on the other hand, people with ADHD and all people, not just people with ADHD, but people with ADHD don't often realize this is that they have strengths and there are strengths that are common for people with ADHD around creativity, around non-linear thinking. Even impulsivity can be something that is positive for entrepreneurship. Sometimes you do need that impulsivity to be able to take risks that other people won't take. So every weakness oftentimes has a strength on the other side. I think it's important to take a balanced view to who you are as a whole. And then on top of that, I think a big part of our approach and one of the first things I realized needed to happen as an ADHDer is before you've been doing all of that, you really need to define where you want to go as a person. And people with ADHD have impaired perspective memory, which is basically looking into the future. We often just spin our wheels faster and faster in no particular direction, which again, is probably relatable to a lot of people. And so the first thing we do in coaching is help people think about where they want to go in the future. And so for some people, that'll be a really hard activity because they've never thought of it. And for some people, it'll be easier. So once you define that, then it becomes easier to say, do we really need to fix all the challenges that you have to get there or do we maybe need to like switch gears a little bit or are there certain strengths that you can be able to draw and to move you closer to that future that you envision. And so both of those two things in terms of looking into the future and then taking steps to get there, that's more lined with your strengths and challenges together, creates an entire system that helps you just live a life that you're more calm, happy, fulfilled, feeling well, whatever you want to define as your kind of objective function. It just sounds like a very realistic approach. Like there's no extremes in that of like, either this is a superpower or like stomp out every single thing about yourself that you don't like, which personally, I think is like, you know, the middle ground is often the best in terms of these things like the balance of of things is always where you find like the most peace, I guess, which is what you're saying. Exactly. And I think that I mean, we all know how social media and algorithms work. Actually, I recently listened to a Mel Robbins episode that had research that was so interesting that talked about how all of the perspectives on the internet were actually mostly written by like 10% of people and those 10% of people generally fall in extremes. We are all scared to go against what we think is the popular opinion. So we see those opinions and we decide to ascribe to one of them. And that's how a lot of polarization happens. And I think within the ADHD community, this polarization is also at least I we all perceive it to be happening, but I think there are probably more people in the middle than we think. Yeah. Okay. We're going to take a short break. But when we return, we're going to talk some ADHD friendly strategies for work, for love, for life, so stay with us. Keith Jemanko seemed like a mild mannered suburban dad, but secretly he became someone else, a master of disguise who went on a crime spree. At the time did it seem like a crazy idea? It seemed very crazy, but I felt so desperate that I felt it was the quickest, easiest way out. Did you allow yourself to think about how we could go wrong and what that might look like? No. I didn't want to manifest that. I wonder, I was trying to manifest success. That is not the look of an innocent. This is going to change my life and my family dynamic forever because everything that had existed prior in my reality is now untrue. Listen to Deep Cover, The Family Man. I'm the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you saw it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. Just then we felt the plain turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle. 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So I had this listener reach out to me the other day, and she was like, I really want to know how I can manage my executive dysfunction as somebody with ADHD. And I kind of had to be like, I don't really know. But let me get back to you. Let me ask someone who does know. So one of some of the strategies that you've used to help yourself with deadlines, with focus, with burnout in your career. Yeah. So the first half of my answer is going to be an unpopular one because people always want hacks. But it is so important to first identify where exactly you are going, and because you might not need to fix the thing that you think you need to fix. So I will first say that and get that out of the way even though nobody will listen to me because people always want the hacks. So for me, some of the things that have been the most helpful is, first one is the reframe that not everything needs. Not all the solutions need to come from me doing something different internally. It a lot of it and it's easier is if you set up your life to be different because then it's a gift that keeps on giving. So that might be setting up your environment in a certain way that is conducive for you to be able to focus. A specific room in your house where you're working in another room where you never work in. And then that helps trigger your brain into I'm in work mode and I'm not in work mode. And it might be having certain systems that your whole family knows about. So one that is really common is people who work from home, which is a lot of people know when they're writing. They will put a little sign on their door where their kid and their partner all know that this means like I'm in deep writing mode and so they don't get that distraction. So again, all of these, I'm giving like little examples because it all come from working back from what your challenge is and what your goal is. So if these things don't work for you, I would not also abandon them. You need to think about how you can implement that better in your life. And so that kind of brings me to another one that has been so helpful for me is learning what your motivators are and then injecting that into your work. So for example, for me, novelty and accountability are two of my strongest motivators. So when I can't get something done, I ask myself, okay, what is a way that I can put accountability into it? Do I have to say with my co-founder that in our next working session, he needs to check in with me on this. Like that's accountability. Or for novelty, do I've been wanting to do this thing for a long time and I can't do it? Do I need to do it on Canva and put it in pink instead of doing it on a cell and then just move it later on. So really understanding first, what are your motivators and that you can figure out by looking backwards at, let's say a week or even a day if you can't think back at a week and think about what are the moments of the day that you were most excited and most motivated and think through what was there for you. So the most common ones are novelty, interest, passion, accountability, urgency. Those are some of the ones that are common for people with ADHD. You might discover that there are other motivators for you as well. And then the third thing I will say that has been so helpful for me is energy management. So people with ADHD have generally a late set circuit in rhythm. They sleep, they want to sleep later and a couple later. We also have more erratic energy bursts throughout the day and for a long time I tried to fight against that and just you have these narratives in your head of like I should be able to be as consistent as everyone else. Like why can't I work from 9 till 5 and then there's these other days where you just work for like 12 14 Indira Strait, you knock out like a whole weeks of work and then the next day you can't do your 9 to 5 and you wonder why all because you just knocked out a whole week of work the day before. So really learning what your energy looks like, what times of the day you are energized and maybe putting deep work during that time, what times of the day you are in maybe more of a crash mode and maybe you want to do a walk outside because you know that that really brings you up and also if you're a woman, oftentimes depending on your hormone cycle, your energy won't look the same throughout the month. So that awareness again and then matching that awareness with what sort of tasks go in there. And so the meta kind of message here is really figuring out how you can work with your brain and body instead of fighting against it because oftentimes we fight against it because we think that we need to do things in a way that we've just seen other people do. And when we listen to how other people, like the tips that other people put out there, they're generally from people who are neuro-typical and it generally is the average thing that works for everyone and if you have ADHD you're generally not super average. Yeah, probably not. I wanted to talk about that. This one word you mentioned which was urgency and yeah, how urgency plays a role in ADHD. Personally, I feel like I've read a lot of research that the urgency effect is a lot stronger. So people with ADHD often prefer working under a tight deadline. How do you suggest people manage that when they also want to be proactive about not being stressed right up to the time that something is due or doing something the best that they can do it rather than the fastest they can do it. The complexity of wanting to do it in the moment when you have the most adrenaline and wanting to do it well. Yeah, so that's a really tough one because we all know that we do things better. Like with ADHD that would do things better at the last minute. But the problem is you probably face a large degree of shame leading up to that moment where maybe weeks or months you are thinking about the thing and you're thinking about how you're just not doing the thing and how bad you are and how you should be doing it and that just weighs on you and that is a really, really large cost. And so it's different for each person. If you feel like that cost is not big for you, one option is I have heard of people who are like I just accept that I do things at the last minute and I will do it. And it depends on what job you have as well. Some people are able to do that. Some people aren't. Well for say that like you might not need to solve it. Maybe you need to solve the part where you're ruminating and maybe you need to solve the urgency part. Really figuring out which part you need to solve. But if you do want to not do things at the very last minute, which I generally can't in my job, the way that I've done it is one way is by building in like micro urgency moments using my motivators. So again, similar examples before if I know that there's a big project that's due, I try not to make. I try, when I do the project planning part, I try to build in multiple smaller urgency moments for me. So I will do a meeting maybe a quarter way through where I know I need someone's feedback and they're waiting for my for what I have. And we've communicated ahead of time that on this day, we're going to talk about this thing. And that for me is enough for me to be able to do that quarter of the work because I have that preset out for me. And if you have the, I would say privilege. Let's say if you have an assistant or a few instances of me, I tool having them be able to do that for you because they know that you need that and setting the meeting. If there's a meeting in my calendar and I know everyone's different from me, if there's a meeting in the my calendar, I will prepare for it. If there's no meeting my calendar, I won't prepare for it. So and if there's a meeting with someone else, I will more likely prepare for a while. So just really pulling on all of those, your own motivators and then building an extra urgency moments is really helpful. And then another thing is really just a lot of the times we do something, let's say we wait until the last minute and then we do this thing really stressfully and then we say, Oh my gosh, I'm never doing this again. This is so stressful. I hate this. And then within a month, you forget, you totally forget that learning that is so common, Not just for this example, but so many examples. I think one thing that's also really important is finding your own way of making sure you capture the things that you've learned in the past. With me, I use Shimmer, but it's not just negative and learnings, but also wins. I have a folder in my phone and in my laptop and in my email, I have three different ones that I just capture. Testimonials, photos, when someone says me an Instagram comment that says that my ex-video has changed their life, and because I need reminders of those things, because on days where I'm not doing so hot, I will forget. I'll be like, "Wow, all this is for nothing, and nobody I've not changed anyone's life, and I've just been here working myself off for no reason." I get these narratives in my head, and when I can just look at these pictures or look at these messages, it reminds me and kind of grounds me in the past because it's harder for people with ADHD to remember the past, especially when they're in a emotionally dysregulated moment. Yeah, I can only imagine how tricky that would be, just being like, "Oh, I can never remember a good thing that anyone said to me." The intersection of self-esteem and ADHD is a whole 'nother conversation. I had a friend who actually speaking of the urgency stuff and meaning deadlines. At the start of every single semester when we were at uni, he would go through all the core syllabus and then put all of the deadlines in his calendar three days beforehand. He kind of was like, "I'm going to use the fact that I know I'm not going to have great memory recall." Some of them he'd do like three. Some of them he'd do like five. Some of them he'd do two days beforehand. One day beforehand. He was like, "I'm just going to go and trust that I'm not going to remember which ones I did for which of these. I'm just going to trust what's in my calendar and get it done at this date so that by the time that rolls around, I get to feel the urgency, I finish the work and then I have a day to edit or have a day to fix it. Or I just submit and I'm happily surprised by the fact that the deadline hasn't passed yet. I feel like for some people that wouldn't work but I saw it work incredibly well for him. It was like, honestly, I was like, "What's he going to be like? How do you just lie to yourself?" It was so weird that he knew that it was a lie and he would still believe it even though it was just the most interesting thing that he'd found, like his hack for his brain. I love that. Yeah, he's externalizing his memory and also once he gets there, even though he knows, I still have a lot of effort to do the calculation. Exactly. It's kind of like when I think a lot of people did this. It's not just an ADHD thing but when I was young, where my clock was always five minutes ahead. I put all my clocks five minutes ahead and I knew it was a lie but I'm not constantly calculating the time. I just end up getting to places. I think five minutes, I thought it would be there five minutes early but then I'd be there on time which is perfect. Oh my god, perfect. Yeah. I never did that because I just knew I was like, well, that's not the truth. But then again, I had executive function where I could just be like, oh, I'll just get there 10 minutes early. Yeah. So it's like interesting how like maybe yeah, it's just so interesting how different people do those things. I want to talk about love. I want to start by talking about rejection sensitivity. This is a word that I hear in regards to ADHD all the time. I've done an episode on it before. I think a pretty general knowledge of it. Can you talk us through it? Why is it so common amongst people with ADHD? And I guess my third question, so sorry, three questions at once. How can people manage it? But firstly, what is it? Why is it common? And then we can talk about tips for managing it. So rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is commonly known as RSD, is essentially a phenomenon, I guess you can call it where people with ADHD will feel like they're rejected by other people or feel like there's negative sentiment coming towards them. And it's defined as like real or perceived rejection. So oftentimes it falls in that second category of perceived and it's generally created through well, one emotional dysregulation of us, just the moment we feel something, we like jump on that feeling and then it becomes bigger and bigger. And then we're kind of just swimming in that feeling or I guess and it's also because we've had an entire lifetime of people telling us that we were wrong or we're doing it the wrong way. And then we've internalized that and then we continue to tell ourselves that. And so whenever there's like a small, I guess like signal, you feel like you've done something wrong. And so for me, for example, like whenever I'm in an argument with someone, work or relationships, I will always think that I'm wrong. Like 100% of the time. That's my immediate reaction. Sometimes people need to convince me and this is happening in relationships where they're like, no, no, like let's have a conversation about this. There's no right or wrong. We're just trying to get to a understanding. That's why I've been unlearning that. I'm just like, oh no, I must have done something wrong. You must hate me. So it is from most people at 8-D, this lifelong unlearning. And especially in like logically, I know in people situations, there's often not like a wrong, but I just feel that way. And so I guess your second part of the question of like what people can do with it. One really, for me, that's been most helpful and I've been working on with coaching that comes up for a lot of our members too, is really understanding like what your triggers are and what sort of situations these come up with come up in the most. And this actually goes for not just RSD, but also impulsivity. That's the same thing where I do a lot of impulsive stupid things and I don't realize it's wrong and it's hurt people until after it's done and people communicate it to me. And for both of those things, what I worked on with my coach is separately for those two things, understanding what situations do those commonly happen in. And just the awareness of that when you're about to step into a situation like that, like for example, impulsivity, maybe it's drinking. And you can have that pep talk with yourself to say, okay, like I'm entering this situation with awareness. And so it could be awareness that your RSD might be triggered. It could be awareness that you might do something impulsive so that you can put, and it's the same solution again, you can put that pause. So when someone says something and you immediately your brain starts spiraling, you need to get into the practice of putting the pause and same with impulsivity. When you're about to have an impulsive moment and you just need to figure out how to put the pause. And so the best thing you can do for yourself is understanding when that generally happens. Because it's not random. For each person, it's going to be in different situations where that happens. And so really just knowing in this situation, these sorts of conversations generally make me feel this way. And if that happens, I'm going to do this. And if you have that plan beforehand, when you're calm and collected, and you've written that down ideally, I used to have, I think when I first heard of this exercise, I used to have a sticky note. And I would put it in my closet where I would get dressed before going out, where I would more likely to drink. And so really, I was putting it where you would need to see it to remind yourself of that. And over time, you'll need to remind yourself less because your brain is trained to go trigger and then thought and then being able to block that thought. It's putting yourself in a waiting room. That's what that sounds like to me. I'm like, okay, before we react or like before we do something like forcing yourself to like sit with it for a little bit. Exactly. And knowing when you might need to be in that waiting room because when you're emotionally disregulated, you might not be able to put yourself in that waiting room. So like, basically giving your brain an autopilot, saying like, if this happens, I go to waiting room. It's like a if then, which I love. And I just like, can't imagine what it would feel like to be like, everybody here says something slightly rude or just slightly off or not even like you just interpret them. It's like not liking you. My friend actually told me about this rule, which is like the 25% rule, which is there is like actually only a small amount of people, maybe 25% of people who you will never convince not to like you. Or who you will never convince to like you. Sorry. That's what I should say. No, it convinced to like you. And that's like one in four, which might sound like a huge number, but it's just kind of like doing the math of like actually not every single person could possibly not like me. But also, I'm down to accept that maybe like a quarter of them will. And that's just a certainty that everyone's going to find themselves in. So I don't know if that's also helpful, but yeah, it would just be wild. Yeah. I think the other thing is I often whenever I have a feeling RST is one of them, I often think that it's less or a reflection on the other person and it's usually a reflection on myself. So I would say the other tip that I would have is if you think that everyone's having some sort of negative thought towards yourself, it might not be, but I would challenge to think if you maybe have that negative thought towards yourself. And so the case, then you need to do the work to be able to reinforce your strengths, reinforce past wins to really build up your self confidence, which is it's a practice of building self confidence of continuing to put yourself out there and seeing that things are going to go well for you and that you can handle these situations. And so as you build up your self confidence, you will find that these situations, you'll less likely feel like other people don't like you because you back yourself. so hard and that's such a long journey, right? But like you wanna get to the point where you back yourself so hard that you wouldn't think that they don't like you. But even if you had all the signals and they didn't like you, it wouldn't even impact you because it doesn't matter because you back yourself so much. - Yeah, which I love. I'm like, this is something I find even if someone without ADHD. It's like the things that sting the most of the things that you think might be true. - Exactly. - And that's like, that's something that is for everybody. So it's like, yes, where is that pain coming from? I wanna talk about a bit more about relationships as well. And maybe some of the common hurdles or pitfalls that people with ADHD might find when they're falling in love or even in friendship. - Yeah, so I did a whole series called "Adee to Go" feels and "Adee to Go" dates on this. So it's really fun if you wanna check it out. But I think like in the early stages, one of the really common ones, which is an interesting one 'cause I do this and I've been done this too, is definitely around love bombing. This comes up so frequently because it's related to emotional dysregulation in that when we fall for someone, it's very common that we fall for them like really hard and then we ignore all the signals, even if there's red flags or whatever it is. And we pour so much love in them that it can also sometimes scare people away. So even in a relationship where it could have worked, maybe you just freak them out because you came onto hard. And so that in itself can be a challenge, but also then there's this transition of like when you finish the initial dysregulated love bombing, it can feel jarring to your partner when you suddenly like change the way that you act. And I know everyone goes through a little bit of this but I think within each year's we feel this more and it's very common. This full love bombing thing, I think love bomb was obviously not the official term for it. But everything is heightened and this is a very sensitive moment where it is sometimes helpful to be aware of that and then make sure you're, I mean, it's your choice if you want to try to control it and slow it down. I think a lot of people give advice to slow it down. I actually just find it important to communicate for me. I actually enjoy the really strong, I'm falling head over my heels feeling. I just will explain to the person that this happens to me. I think this is what's happening and just keeping the communication open so that they're aware that I'm aware of this and we're kind of in a decision together. But I know a lot of people do give the advice to, there's tactics to essentially like kind of like draw that love period out longer so that you can be able to explore things in a more calm way. So I think it's really person dependent obviously there's no right answer. And what do you think or from experience? What happens often like the love high kind of crashes? Like I feel like that state where you know there may be love bombing, there may be intensity like can only last for so long. What happens then is it a case of like you get bored or you get confused or you think you fall out of love with them. Yeah, what does that feeling feel like? A lot of the times it does, it does feel like boredom and I think that there's a process of figuring out if it's because of the person in your relationship that isn't actually right and you were just stuck in all the feelings or if you haven't found a way to potentially value and fall in love with the other parts of a relationship which are maybe not the same as the parts of the relationship in the beginning. And it also I think a lot of the times too because you fell so hard you weren't thinking very critically about things. Like for example most of my neurotypical friends actually know that they have this like list of like not negotiables and things are a little more in a relationship and all those things. And I always thought it was kind of interesting because I was like oh there's no point in me making that because I've actually never chosen a relationship that I've been in, I've just fallen into it. I don't know why I would have that list. When would I use it? But I did actually recently create the list because my co-founder who is neurotypical, he had his list and we were talking about and I was like okay I'll try to create the list. And so it was helpful going through the process around it but I'm just not sure if I would use it in the same way that I can be able to use it in the same way because I'm not as level headed going into a relationship. Yeah, which I feel like it could be both so much fun and super scary. If you're like yeah, I'm just here for the ride. Like wherever this goes, like I kind of know I might not be in control for the first little bit which I don't know, you said you enjoyed the feeling so it sounds fun. Yeah, I do enjoy it. But I definitely have gone through phases where I had like pretty strong fears of what if I can never be in a long term relationship, what if I'm only good at the beginning part. So those are definitely things that I have thought about. I'm currently in my first ever ADHD, ADHD relationship. I've always been in ADHD and neurotypical relationships. So I'm starting to change my mind about things because we talk really openly about ADHD symptoms and we communicate through it. So it's felt different. So I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful for you as well. Okay, we're gonna take one more short break but when we return, I'm gonna kind of talk a bit more, I want to talk more about this relationship that you're in and how you're managing it. And also, you know, some tips for people who are like diagnosed and just for tips for people in their 20s in general. So stay with us. (gentle music) Keith Jim Anko seemed like a mild mannered suburban dad but secretly he became someone else, a master of disguise who went on a crime spree. It seemed very crazy but I felt so desperate that I felt it was the quickest, easiest way out. Did you allow yourself to think about how would you go wrong and what that might look like? No, I didn't want to manifest that. I was trying to manifest success. Every family has its secrets but what happens when you discover that your dad has been living a double life? This is gonna change my life and my family dynamic forever because everything that had existed prior in my reality is now untrue. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just then we felt the plain turn in the air. So much so that the bags are under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle. Each week we derive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. They holding came a shell back from fighting Drew. I think it looks like it would be interesting. On the podcast, reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recapped the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the tea everybody's talking about. As an executive producer and reality television, I'm not just watching it, I understand the game. To hear this and more, listen to reality with the King on the I-HAR Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Hi everyone, I'm Cheryl Strade, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. - Do you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna pull out what you already have inside. We come into this world, fighting for our lives. All I'm gonna do is pull out what you already got inside. - We're there to support and celebrate each other. And that is not like your story versus my story. - You're gonna walk up and over that dang mountain. You're not just gonna put your mind over it. - Yeah, exactly. Listen to Mind of our Mountain every Thursday on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Happy Pride from the Outspoken Podcast Network? All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud and always original. It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, tell me something messy. Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships and adulting. The more you get comfortable with someone, the more their real self comes out, they're going to be gross. Burping. Shut it down. Listen to High Key for the best pop culture takes and there are no girls on the internet for all your tech news. For your favorite celebrity key cues, check out Outlaws with T.S. Madison. Wait, so Luke was the son of a. Darn Fader. And Vader was turned by RuPaul? Yeah, well somebody turned up some old, old, old witch. And you love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem, and start your day with intention with waking up with Ryan coming in July. Celebrate Pride with the Outspoken Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Open your free I Heart Radio app, search Pride and listen now. Okay, so you mentioned during your first ADHD, ADHD relationship, how is that different from dating somebody who is neurotypical? If you want to talk about it, of course. I have thought about this a lot and I actually coming into this relationship, I thought that I had to be an ADHD neurotypical relationship. One, me and my co-founder is neurotypical, so even from a business perspective, I've always thought, okay, we have different skills, we have different strengths, and together we are stronger. And I do think I still do believe in that, but I used to believe that it couldn't be a different way. And so now I'm an ADHD, ADHD relationship, and there's different pros and cons. I think obviously there's certain things where we are both going to be bad at, and therefore it's going to be harder to get done, like chores or laundry and things around the house. But I think the pros is that there's so many things I didn't realize until I was in an ADHD, ADHD relationship that I used to need to at least explain and try to explain myself, because it looked like I was either being lazy or careless, or I didn't love them or whatever. There was a lot of misinterpretations, or even worse than that. A lot of the times I would not even try to explain. I would just feel like I was going to get judged for something and therefore just not do it. Versus now I think in a lot of situations, we will just talk about things. The communication will just be more open and I will be more comfortable sharing things because I know that she'll have a similar perspective or at least understand that perspectives are different. Yeah. I feel like it'd be so comforting just being like, "Oh, I don't have to. " Like you have some of the same knowledge as me. And we can laugh about things that we can laugh at ourselves rather than laughing at the other person. But yeah, it's also been hard for me to untangle because this is also my first queer relationship. So some things I'm like, "I'm not sure if this is coming from the interesting part or the I'm dating a woman part." So it's been. Like, is it easier because it's ADHD or because women just tend to have more planning skills? Yeah, that's interesting. Or like tend to just be easy to work with, slash be with. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I wish from a scientific perspective if these could have happened in two steps that would have been helpful, but. No, that's so funny. I love that you wanted a control group. That's so me. I don't know what you mean. This is another thing that's like my second final question as we're coming to the end of this episode. How do you deal with. Or how do you think people with ADHD can deal with this feeling that they are too much? That they are too much for love, that too much for the workplace, that too much in friendship, that too much for their family. Have you like kind of had to overcome that in your own life and like, "How did you kind of go about it?" Yeah, so I always thought I was too much and I just, as I mentioned in the beginning, I kind of just accepted that I was a bad kid. And even in my first job in consulting, I was told that, "Oh, your work is really great, but your. I think even some point they said I was doing too much. I was doing a lot of pro bono and volunteering stuff and they're like, "That's not the point of your job." And then I was doing too much like social and culture stuff and also I wasn't being like reliable and consistent enough. So I think it's a big. It's actually a mix of being too much and not enough, which is kind of ironic, but you constantly feel like you're in one of those two buckets. You're either too much or not enough. And so for me, one big. The thing that has been really helpful honestly has just been changing my environment. As an entrepreneur, you're never too much. You're expected to be too much. So you're expected to push the boundaries you're expected to be really inspirational and loud and be doing a bunch of things. And so that really helped because the expectation is just different. And then the other thing is like speaking about relationships. Even in relationships, I always felt like I was either too much or not enough. And I think in this current relationship, we've had this conversation many times and I think it's because she also has ADHD, but she's also too much. "Too much." And so I think it just changes the barometer because everything is contextual, right? Too much is like too much for what? Too much compared to neurotypical people, too much compared to what's expected of you. So if you can change the comparison point, then you no longer become too much. You just become different than other people around you, but everywhere is different in a different way. So I think if you have the privilege to change the context around you, the environment around you, that's generally easier. And a lot of members who come to us even at Shimmer, they'll say things like, "Oh, I just want to be productive because I'm not productive enough. I'm not organized enough." And then turns out what actually would make them happy is just placing them in a different environment or a different job or having a different sort of system. So it's such that they don't need to do all the high-horsepower work that they think is required to be able to get to where they want. So really questioning those aspects, and then the other piece, which I know I've touched on a lot, is just finding your way to build up self assurance and self confidence. And there's the little tactics I talked about about keeping your wins really handy, making sure the people around you are really supportive. And a lot of it starts with leadership as well. If you are gassing up the people around you and leading by example, and thinking about it, they're probably going to gas you up back. So a lot of the times we hear a wishing that the world was different, but if you just do how I mean there's like the cliche, like treat other people how you want to be treated. They really work. It's a cliche for us. The best way to make someone do something that you want them to do is for you to do it. And they see it and they're like, "Oh, okay." But if you tell them that they should do it, they're not going to do it. Yeah, it's like a total, that's like I can confirm, according to psychology, that it's like a very real effect. And also if you do something for them, they're more likely to like you as well. And if you do something like, and you're more likely to like them, like it's this whole interaction of like reciprocity. Like I've had this feeling recently where I'm like, I've started to understand why clichés are clichés. And that one, like treat people how you want to be treated is like one of my favorites. I'm like, "Oh, God, that's her wise." They was so right on that one. Yeah, they're in my, so I went to my for undergrad, I did business school and I had a negotiations class. And I don't remember anything from any of my classes. I have no memory. But this one really stuck with me and they gave us this one talking point where when someone, where when you do something for someone and they say, "Thank you." You tell them, "Oh, no problem at all. I know you'd do the same for me." And you're like reinforcing reciprocity. I was like, "Oh, we can't." See you there, you guys. A little bit of manipulation. Doesn't it conquer far enough? I have one final question for you. What is one piece of advice? This is a question we ask everybody. What is one piece of advice that you would have for people in their 20s that has nothing to do with what we talked about today? Nothing to do with ADHD, nothing to do with. Yeah, any of the themes we touched on, just a piece of advice from you to them. Based on my experience, I would say just experiment and have fun. I think that oftentimes we take everything a little bit too seriously and we get lost in things that we later on decide to want even important to us to begin with. So what that looks like for me is really just doing some work, figuring out kind of what your values are. They might change over time, but just doing a little bit of thought behind them and then just ensuring you're living semi-accordingly to them and then just experimenting because sometimes you don't really know what you're going to like or if something's going to feel good for you, unless you actually try it and a lot of the times people get caught up too early picking a path and especially, I know you said don't say ADHD, but especially who are super, who are like multi potential lights and they have lots of hobbies and we're told twice a size of that. that you need to pick one career and know your purpose and just do it for the rest of your life. And if you have that narrative in your head, it is really difficult because who knows when they're 18 what they want to do. And I think that's really changing. I honestly think that's like one of the biggest mistakes that society has made is making people decide so young. I just feel like there's so many so much unhappiness and so many people who become like obsessed with the wrong things like money and like wealth or like status because like what they chose at 18 was meant to be the thing they had to do for the rest of their life. So I love that advice and I totally resonate with it. Well, I want to say thank you so much for coming on even to someone who doesn't have any HD. I actually loved some of those tips just for like, January as someone who works by themselves and can get distracted very easily like they're just so helpful. Where can people find you and where can people find Shimmer? Shimmer is at Shimmer.care and I'm at Instagram, ADHD.crystal and yeah, just head to our website. That's the easiest way to learn about what we do whether you or someone you know has ADHD. We have the ADHD for adults program and then we have the ADHD for teens program. So all sorts of behavioral supports and community supports. The goal is really just for everyone with ADHD to reach their full potential and also reach it in their own way. That works for them. Which I just think is amazing. Well, it was such a pleasure to have you on board. Remember guys to go and check Chris out and all of her work. It's fantastic. And if you enjoyed this episode, give us a five star review. Share it with a friend who you think might need to hear it and follow us on Instagram @thatpsychologypodcast. If you want to, you know, give any feedback and if you have any further questions or thoughts about this episode or any other episodes, if you want us to expand on anything we talked about or if you just want to see behind the scenes, we'd love to have you over there. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very very soon. Hey everyone, this is Teddy Melancham and Tamar Judge from Two Teas and a Pod. 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