The Beginning of REAL UFO Disclosure - Jesse Michels | DEBRIEFED ep. 77

This week's guest is none other than the American Alchemist himself, Jesse Michaels. Now, I wanted to come on here just to set up the way this podcast kind of played out. So, at the beginning of the podcast, Jesse and I, we talk about President Trump's statements in response to former President Barack Obama saying that aliens are real. And it kind of gets us talking about the current state of disclosure. Will Donald Trump be the president to disclose that aliens are real? What's going to come from this? And then somewhere around the one hour mark, our friends interrupt the podcast so graciously, by informing us that President Trump has tweeted this call to action and the fact that he's going to be investigating and looking into UFOs, aliens, extraterrestrials, UAP, etc. It was kind of a historic moment and we caught it on video, so I thought I'd just come on here to sort of quell any confusion that you might have because we begin the podcast talking about the very thing that ends up happening a little bit later on. Now, Jesse also opens up about his relationship with Harold Maumgren and a really interesting story that he's never told before. So, thank you for joining me today and I hope you enjoy the podcast. Okay, let's go. So in 2009, I worked for support living systems in Tucson, Arizona. I also saw the sleep at a computer. I woke up in the middle of the night. The whole place vibrating. I was like the night watchman and I looked in the cameras and all the people that I took care of. I watched to make sure that like they didn't escape, but they always did. We're outside looking at the sky. I went outside and the entire sky was blacked out and it was like a black box, the size of like 20 football fields. And the cops came and I made a report and I gave it to support living systems the next morning. It's all bogged down in it. I had no way of ever reporting this. So this is the first time I've ever. Jesse Michaels, welcome back to the skip. Oh, thank you, Chris. How you doing? Always great to see you and to be in the skip. Yeah, good to have you, man. I'm so excited. You know, you're in town. We just had Gerb on the podcast too and we're all hanging out and then we're here to do the Montreal show for it's probably nothing, which is super exciting. Can't wait. It's gonna be awesome. We have some very special guests. Yeah, we can announce it because that'll probably already I'm sure be around, but George St. Pierre. Yep. UAP Gerb. And then possibly some drop-ins yeah, thinking maybe a mar maybe James Fox. Maybe James Fox. Yeah. And maybe some tall-ass alien-looking dudes walking around in top hats. But who knows? That's that's speculation. It is. We're not gonna go there. We're not gonna speculate today. We're gonna talk about facts only. That's right. No, zero speculation. Yeah. Yeah, all facts. All right. You know, there's there's a few things that I wanted to talk to you about today. But one is what's what's your initial gut check reaction to everyone saying Trump's gonna disclose UFOs? I love whatever is going on right now. I feel like we're in this like memetic warfare between Democrats and Republicans and presidents and ex-presidents. And it's all around upping the anti vis-a-vis this alien issue. And so Obama let out a thing, you know, last week on this podcast or whatever. Aliens real. The real, but I haven't seen him and they're not being kept in what is it? Area 51. There's no underground facility. Unless there's this enormous conspiracy and they they hit it from the president of the United States. What was the first question you wanted answered when you became president? Where are the aliens? And it was this. Yeah, they're real, but Area 51. Sorry. That was my. It was so bad. It wasn't a horror. I'm editing this. So that's great Chris. Oh, thank you. I got you. You get the like, you know, he takes himself pretty serious. Yeah. He's got Obama. All right. That's enough. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. But so he, obviously that felt very kind of choreographed like it was like he gave himself an out, you know, afterwards you could say I was talking about the Fermi paradox like aliens are of course are real in this very abstract sense. Yeah. But then he also cited like cited Area 51, but kind of like forgot about Area 51. Forgot the name of Area 51. Forgot the name of Area 51 then oddly specific, you know, denial of like aliens underground at Area 51. Yeah. And and a denial of their fact that there are underground bases at Area 51, which, you know, we're here with you AP Gerb. You know, it's a great, you know, documentary of these deep underground military bases, you know, you have the solder book about deep, like that's a thing. It's definitely a thing there at Area 51. Luigi's here as well. Yeah. He's doing the Bob movie. You know, I think he has a lot of amazing evidence around underground passages in the whole place being this mining, you know, like they're being mining shafts there. So that was interesting. Kind of worth a false. And then, and then you have his, his DNI and his CIA director, both partaking in a movie where they're implicitly it's tacitly age of disclosure endorsing not only UFOs being real, but you know, decades long, you know, crash retrieval programs and then hints of a first engineering. Yeah. And specifically clapper mentioning Area 51. That's right. Yeah. Tracking Area 50. UFOs at Area 51. Yeah. So you have them doing that. And to me, it almost felt like we're going to get there first. The Obama was going to get there first, but also prompt Trump, like almost provoke Trump. And you know, so you think it was a, it was a knowing, wittingly sort of like tactic to, to get Trump to react. Could be because he wouldn't have, he wouldn't have walked it back though the next day. What do you have? Well, I don't know, because I think he know, if you're, if you're media savvy, which he is, right, he only walked it back in the comments. Well, you know that the comment isn't going to be as circulated as the initial thing. That's true. The initial thing got super circulated. Then the little comment retraction thing, only a few people saw everybody talked about. And then Obama is also producing a doc, a documentary on Betty and Barney Hill, the first, you know, very well-known abductees in the US in 1961. And has shown, I think some longstanding interest. He's also discussed the three-body problem at times. If you look at his media appearances leading up to that podcast, he's dropping hints left and right on Colbert. He talks about you. Oh, they have full, full control of us, but is that better now? You're horrible. But James Corden. And I'm actually being serious here is that there are, there's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are. We can't explain how they moved their trajectory. They did not have an easily explainable pattern. And so, you know, I think that people still take seriously trying to investigate and figure out what that is. He says, you know, there are things in our skies. We don't know how to classify. He's dropping hints. That was, I think, if you see that out of context, oh, it's a mistake. If you see it in context of his last, you know, 10 years of comments, they only have to let it happen. You will be all those secrets. They access a strict control over us. Now, you know, there are a lot of people that are going to examine your facial expressions here. He was building up to that. And then you know that there's a lot of continuity between the Clintons kind of intelligence apparatus and Obama's. And all those people are all over the UFO issue. In fact, Podesta was literally, you know, Obama's chief of staff. And maybe it was, yeah, it was Obama's, I think, chief of staff. And then also, obviously, you know, in the Clinton White House, and I think was Hillary's campaign manager. So there's definitely connectivity there. Love's pizza. Apparently, love's pizza and hot dog. But it's also been rape soda. Jesus Christ. But it's also been all over the UFO issue since the 90s. And is in WikiLeaks emails and, you know, emails with Tom Belong where there's clearly a history. Yes. For him to play dumb is an insane move. It's an insane move. But it's a, it's also like, that's where we're at with the whole political discourse is like, it's all, it's all, it's the worldwide, you know, wrestling or whatever. It's a whole show. It's a whole show. And the person interviewing him, forgive me, I don't know about him. But he's got like a pretty big following. I guess he's like a political commentator. Is my best guess? I don't know. I don't, I didn't look any, I didn't look into him at all. I was so anointingly frustrated with no follow-up there. It was absurd. I mean, I'm trying to understand if I'm outside of the UFO space, do I even care for a follow-up? And I'm like, no, of course I do. Of course anyone would care. I'm trying to think if it's only my UFO brain being like, oh, you know, why didn't he ask? Well, if you say they're real, you're also not really saying they're real based on some probabilistic Drake equation for me paradox. You're saying they're real and then the natural follow-up question is sir, how do you know that? Literally, it's just so basic or what do you mean? Like it's a very natural one. Well, I think it I mean that guy You know, he kind of looks like he sells like real estate in West Hollywood or something like he's got this Like Sam and he's in this sort of machine of pre-approved questions probably and like pre-approved questions for sure Like where it's like it's so obvious Obama knows what's coming and then he's in that sort of factory you look at his other videos and it's all stuff to kind of drum up the base on the left wing And I'm not saying that's you know monopolized by the left wing. That's a thing on the right wing, too It's this machine right and I don't I think you are running a program when you're in that media complex I don't think you're Thinking on the fly and I don't think you're thinking about you know ontologically, you know Deep questions. You're not actually interviewing. No, yeah, it's a it's a it's a it's all a staged thing Yeah, it's like a media-trained sort of Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a performance and you even see like people like Tucker Carlson who come from that world Who are now I think becoming a little bit more like in front to an independent you still see him ask questions in a way where it's like So you're saying, you know, and it's like you you know, it's like it's all good. You're not in legacy media anymore It's what are you AP, you know like these type of questions or sit like I still get frustrated when I see this on legacy media like how long are we going to beat this horse until we stop like until we move on to the next sort of You know layer of the onion. Well, that's what I find frustrating about the whole political conversation and even People who are into UFO quote-unquote disclosure who are tracking the political conversation in this like hyper vigilant way I understand it for people like David Grush and other whistleblowers who are like I went out on a limb and my government is gaslighting me And then simultaneously you have all these people are like fans of the UFO culture and they're just like me too, but you're tracking the The statements of these you know politicians like they're you're hanging on their every word. Yeah, you know, and it's like that's just I think we just got disclosure and it's like what do you meet like what is the guy just literally like uttered a cryptic sentence That is clearly like meant to be retractable and like be a dog whistle and you're saying that that's disclosure It goes to these other kind of question deeper questions of like even if you were to unveil a craft with like You know heavy elements with weird isotope ratios and like electro-gravity propulsion and all these other kind of crazy exotic features That would be get a thousand more questions let alone the cryptic high-level statement, right? Sure. Yeah Yeah, no fair and I think that you know Him doing it. So sort of flippantly was also very calculated. Yep. Uh as a sort of maybe even a litmus test or some type of Hey, let's see what happens. Is it really that bad? Does it really go viral? Does it like just as a media Training events it's a litmus test as was Lera Trump who is you know Trump's daughter-in-law. Mm-hmm. She you know teasing it saying like her doing it was for the clicks I think oh, I don't think so at all. I think she was clearly you I don't think you say that unless you're coordinating with your family Oh, I think there might be some truth to it, but her saying it next question What do you or the president know about UFOs? Can you share I hear That the president has something in the queue to share with us about all of this now truth be told I'm trying to remember how long ago it was it may have been right after he left office After the first term I remember Eric being like all right. What like what can you tell us and he was a little Little hesitant to give us any real info which makes me think like he's got a lot of info out there And he's waiting for the right time to drop it and maybe This is going to be the time because I keep seeing all these stories about how he's got some like UFO speech that he's got Cute up and what's for the clicks is what I mean. Oh, I think it's both. Yeah, I think it's totally both Yeah, I mean, I think this whatever happened today with Trump, you know, that was interesting I think shows that it's you know for both. I think they're they're thinking about this sort of stuff. What do you say? Something to get a lot of attention this week Marat Obama said that aliens are real Have you seen any evidence of non-human visitors? Well, he gave classified information. He's asked for us to be doing that. So aliens are real. Well, I don't know if they're real or not I can tell you he gave classified information. Well, he made a he made a big mistake He took it out of class of my information. No, I don't I don't have an opinion on it I never talk about it. A lot of people do a lot of people believe it Do you believe it Peter? Well, it the president can declassify anything that he wants to I may get him out of trouble. I may get him out of trouble by declassified. We know illegal aliens Yeah, illegal only illegal It's he said. Well, he's revealing classified information. Yes, he said sort of he said he said. Yeah, he goes He's revealing classified different. Okay, which is amazing because and by the way like You know as much as I just critiqued like people who hang on politicians everywhere. Sure. I'm I'm loving What's happened that he just admitted? Well, I'm loving the auntie is being uped on both sides And he did and he totally if you read that statement it's You're saying that aliens are classified. Why would aliens ever be classified if they were fake and they weren't real Yeah, and so and then maybe you could get away with saying well you revealed the you know area 51 underground base thing But he actually said no to that. He denied it. So shut up to the reporter because the reporter probably knew full well That Obama had retracted that statement and sort of walked it back For him not to follow up and be like hey Obama said it was real. He was rage baiting him Yeah, a hundred percent in real time and so you know, you see like Trump's handlers in the back and his spokesperson just kind of like Yeah, you see Carolyn levitt's face She's smiling in her smile is slowly fading because she knows the mountain of You know, just incoherent People that are going to follow up with her is going to be She's literally the White House press secretary and has to like field all the questions Every single one's going to be about this Yeah, but you know, it's also hilarious that they make it a big joke always and that There's something you know what there is there's something about that stage That lends itself to a bit of a comedy scene You have this you have this stage you have this small little gallery of people They're all in their own right witty There's this banter among them There's like this camaraderie because they see each other in the same fucking room every day Talking to ask in the same questions getting no answers and they're all a bit cynical And they all have like this sense of humor so that whole room lends itself to like Yeah, any of the wisest cracks will get a chuckle from the crowd And so that must be very tempting to save face To fall back on as a crutch in a social environment if you're on stage and things get a little tense You know fall back to a joke Obama was a master at that say what you want about his presidency, but he was really good at controlling the room And adding levity through you know slight humor But that stage in that room where all these press briefings happen To me is like you'll never Hear the word aliens without hearing a chuckle in that room just because of the way that room is and the energy in that room Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like it's like going to the tonight show you're right and saying do you believe in aliens? Life track, please perfectly reasonable question. Yeah, you know everyone's laughing and so I don't know if we'll ever get a serious conversation about aliens in that room I want to do podcasts with Trump I would love to talk to him about the and talk to him about his uncle who's at the MIT rad lab Yeah, who is doing and talk to him about his is a time traveling Seven-foot tall son. That's right Baron the adventures of of Baron Trump Baron Trump where dawn is like his you know Guide in the time travel adventures or whatever. Yeah, I wonder if he's read that book. I'd be interesting to find out it would he'd be an interesting guest The son there. Yeah, Baron would be cool. I bet you barons into UFOs. I probably are like tangentially. Yeah, I feel like you know or call of duty or call of duty Apparently he hooks Trump up with like all the podcasts circuit stuff. Oh, that's why he did nelkin and Logan Paul right Probably yeah, interesting also Trump loves the UFC Trump loves the UFC, which is a weird thing. Yeah, he loves. Yeah, we don't have a fight on the wildhouse on the lawn Cool, we're not getting UFOs on the white house lawn, but we're getting a bunch of dudes fighting each other So hey next best thing. Well, we might be headed towards world worth three right now Which is you know and so it's like everything with like fuel in it is being sent to the Middle East As we speak and said wait to bring down the pod. I'm sorry You're on a light made. I was just saying though like you know Yeah, on a more serious note Where these things seem to know where these things seem to like show up and intervene is like moments of high entropy in crisis And actually remote viewers seem to be able to remote view Areas of high entropy better as well. And so look at where we're You just had Ross cold art on and he talked about you know Now being a more unstable time than during the Cuban Missile Crisis I don't know if I agree with that per se, but we are enough extremely heightened, I mean, I agree with this general sentiment, which is like, we're in a multipolar nuclear world that is crumbling as we speak. And so I wonder if it's almost like funny and and makes so much sense that just UFO disclosure is happening as a side comment, you know, by these various presidents in the form of podcasts and press conferences as the world as AI accelerates from the world seems to believe. The end of time, it feels like, yeah, geopolitical, you know, tension. The Epstein files, you know, which like the, I think the low resolution, like dumb take on it is like, it's all just a smoke screen, you know, distraction against the Epstein files. Show me more files, which is great. Or the other way around. Let's see more files. But what about the like deeper thought of like, what if there's a convergence between like some of these metaphysical, bizarre truths that are at times extremely dark that come around speculation of NHI and, you know, in the spooky science they're in, by the way. And then all of the stuff coming out of the Epstein revelations, which, you know, some of these emails are just so weird. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, you know, what if there's just one person like this, this small cabal just conjuring all this up from like some, some Vatican basement or something? Who knows? Maybe. I wouldn't, I wouldn't put it past them. Um, yeah, that's interesting. Do you think Trump will be our disclosure president? I think that he has more of a chance to be there's, there's a higher likelihood there than a lot of past presidents. I think Biden was never really in charge. There was like an apparatus and it, it behind him that was in charge. No, he's actually still fit to run. Yeah. No, they, uh, after that one date, you ever see the video of Joe Biden walking and then the Boston Dynamics robot walking, trying to get over. I have no like new conspiracy. It's like, he's a skin suit and, yeah, it's hilarious. Um, but like, so there was like, he was, you know, if you're just calling like the deep state, like this apparatus of like, you know, low agency bureaucrats, like he, he was a figure head that sat atop that. Yeah. Trump is, uh, Axelone and he will do things like despite his cabinet being against him. And he will, he will go to Venezuela and he'll say we're going to take Greenland. And so if there was ever a guy, uh, who is kind of a higher volatility, but like extremely independent minded and, and not kind of caught in these, you know, the local incentive games or whatever, you know, really can can rise above that in a way that can be scary, but also, you know, exciting. It's him. So I think there's a chance. There is a chance. I'm thinking now how I'd change up my strategy if I was Obama. Instead of being like, aliens are real, I would be like Donald Trump will never tell you about aliens. Yeah. Exactly. Cause then he'll go, we got aliens, lot of aliens, a lot of aliens. It'll be like, you'll be, not those aliens, those are, but I just take care of those aliens, but you know, in a, oh, oh, oh, oh, you want to come here on your spaceship? You got to do it the legal way. Yeah. No. Obama's move should, it should be like, you know, my presidency, we made more progress on this. On the UFO issue. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. You got to poke a little harder. I don't know. And at some point I thought I do not love the idea that my internet provider can see and store all of this. And that's why I use ExpressVPN. It's simple. When it's on, it encrypts your connection and roots your traffic through their servers. So your internet provider cannot see your browsing history. 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At ExpressVPN.com/Area52, you'll see the link and QR code on the screen right now. It's ExpressVPN.com/Area52 to get up to four extra months. Thanks to our sponsor, ExpressVPN. But I'm hope I also think, Trump, he's really good at reading the room and understanding what is good for him kind of, you know, optically and also, you know, what will galvanize the country or create momentum. Right, right. And so I think there's a chance, you know? There is a chance. There's definitely a chance. And my conviction level grows higher. It was pretty low at one point because I was like, there's no way they're letting this guy, you know, and I'm like, this guy's not a puppet. He is a, they're all puppets, but he's not the puppet that they're looking for. I don't think he's a little too, you know, too much of a loose cannon to fit in that role. But then for me, you know, I look back at this Spielberg thing and I can't shake it. And I know it's, it's my pet theory and it's a little absurd, but also I don't think it's absurd. I mean, Spielberg has a history of, you know, being really close to some UFO truths, let's say. And for all of that to be culminating at the same time for the people in Congress who, you know, once the second they established this new sort of UAPTF, they're tweeting out the new title of Spielberg's movie with like cryptic tweets of like, oh, just wait, you're not ready for this. And I'm ready for what the fucking Spielberg movie, like, what are you talking about? And then immediately the, this huge flap, this flap that goes worldwide, it happens in Jersey with all these drones and, you know, who knows what was going on there. But immediately after they start filming in Jersey. And I can't help but think somehow that's related to like moving something and that something's going to be in the movie. Yeah. And that that'll be Trump's pedestal that they're propping him up for. And they're like, here, here's a, here's an alley. We got this and you're going to come out and Spielberg's going to be here and people are going to have, shoving their faces full of popcorn. And it's going to be the American, we're going to have stealth bombers fly overhead and maybe unveil the TR3B at the same time and be like, we got aliens are here, you know. I don't know, that's, that's my America, but I'm Canadian. So, you know, I, you know, that might be right. I don't think the Spielberg camp would be coordinating with Trump though would be my guess. No, I'm knowingly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Trump would probably be briefed in the last like few days and then would probably, you know, go out on truth social and like spill the beans prior. Right. That's right. Well, but yeah, the team working behind it all, you know, it's in the grand scheme of things. If that happened, I wouldn't be mad if it, if that's how we got disclosure. So what I'm quote was this film features a real UFO. I would, I'd be like, hats off. You're forgiven, you know, you're forgiven. Yeah, the trillion to dollars, forget about it. You guys just did the best coolest thing ever. Freaking out the entire mainland United States that we were being invaded by, you know, we were in adversary and there were drones up there. It's okay. Yeah. We got John Krasinski acting in a UFO or whatever. Yeah, you see in the movie? I don't know. Oh, you might, I think, well, Emily Blunt is. Emily Blunt is. Oh, they are. Oh, they're a thing. So it's maybe you might be doing it. But maybe they're both in it. How cool would that be to find out you, you were like in a UFO and you didn't know it? That would be insane. Like that was the set. There's like this crashed UFO and they have to act in it and stuff. Guys, this was recovered in a deep sea mission. They're pulling real bodies out of it and you're like, wow, this is so cool. Yeah. Wild. And also, I mean, there's this other Jerry, Jerry Brock and Imer. Yeah, Jerry Brock and Imer. Brock and Imer. Yeah. His movie is coming out soon, which was that, you know, people, there were whispers that, what, Grosh was a part of the consulting. Yep. So that'll be interesting. I'm sure a lot of UFO people are also going to be looking at that with a keen eye. Yeah. I mean, you've got it, especially for that. I mean, with Spielberg, we're reading the tea leaves on that movie. You have to think that very high fidelity stuff, ideally, is going to come out because just knowing Dave, you know, I think he has an extreme attention to detail. I do think he wants to get as much of this stuff out as he can. Yeah. It's a good point. It's also interesting to think because Spielberg had some pretty heavy hitting consultants for closing counters. Well, he had Jacques Valle. He had Jalen Heineck. Yeah. He was pretty much the go-to guy. He was the go-to guy. Jalen Heineck. Who do you think he used for this movie? It's sorry. Yeah. Jacques Valle was consulting the French watcher foe. Play, Jacques Valle. Play, Jacques. Yeah. So for this, I don't know. But he said, it's funny, he'll answer things like Colbert asked him about aliens and he said, "What if they're not from a distant planet, what if they're us from the future coming back to monitor our own civilization, wouldn't that make more sense?" He's been watching the podcasts. Yeah, either that or like the dude has some really good sources, ET, like locking on with the boy, locking on with the being sounds a lot like what Jake Barber experienced, that sort of like synchronization of entities or what Jordan Joseph talks about, all these Skywatchers, psionic assets talk about the lock on, and there's sort of this harmonization, consciousness mind meld phenomena, or close encounters of the third kind. There is a time travel element where the soldiers walk outside or the two crates with I think are both TRW and skunkworks, which is wild, so yeah, he's got to know some stuff back to the future. Back to the future producer, he's definitely, he definitely knows some stuff. I mean, there has to be, because you watch, do you ever see that interview with James Cameron and was it, George Romero, Guillermo del Toro? I think it was Guillermo. I think I have, or Guillermo Toro talks about his UFO experience. Yeah. Dude, and it's clear as day, you're like, oh, he experienced something. And you can see Cameron's interest in it, too, is kind of interesting. His Cameron is famously known for making the abyss, which, you know, in the inner circles of the IC, apparently, that is one of the movies that is closest to the truth, other than, you know, perhaps close encounters, which is interesting, because it happens also in like the Bermuda area, you know, and that the craft are actually the beings, the beings are the craft type deal, and like, very interesting concepts, but yeah, Hollywood's got their finger on that pulse. And probably, I mean, I'd have to imagine in some way directed to give us some type of softening. I know. Yeah. For sure. On a very small scale, even. That can happen also in this distributed loose way by just planting these guys. There's a guy named Chase Brand, and he wrote an amazing book I love called Crypto's Canundrum. Oh, I have that book. It's a pseudonym. Yeah, I bought it because of you. Yes, I haven't read it yet though. It's really interesting. And I think he quotes Francis Bacon at the beginning of the book, and he says, you know, some truths are so strange, you have to hide them in fiction. And then he goes on to tell this story of this MJ 12, like a majestic 12, like committee essentially forming where beings, non-human beings, show up to each of them, knowing details of their lives that they've never told anybody, and coordinating them. And then there's this sacred object that's given to them that involves, it involves literally like reading timelines. And I brought that up in the context of my interview with Harold Maumgren because the main character in that book is a guy named Chalmers, who's this mathematical whiz. And that committee comes out of the OSA, which is an OSS offshoot, which is pre CIA from 1942 to 1945 in World War II. And Chalmers, to me, reminds me a lot of Maumgren because, so Maumgren was this, you know, JFKLBJ Nixon and Ford advisor who was just this prodigy who was, you know, one of McNamara's whiz kids, so to speak, he was one of the, you know, kind of earliest strategists who was kind of plucked. I'm like youngest too. He was 27 years old when he was like, I can't get enough. When he defused the. Curtis Lemet. During the Cuban mystery crisis. Pretty wild and helped talk him down, so yeah, that book is really interesting, but that's all to get back to Chase Brandon, who was this Hollywood liaison, who was clearly kind of seeding stuff in Hollywood. And I think he had a project with Stanton Friedman in Hollywood and a lot of that study, even Jamie Shanderra was doing stuff. And I think there's been a long history of, I think, that connectivity. If you're one of these agencies, you're obviously, you know, one of your jobs is not only to report on things that are being put out there, but it's to control the things that are being put out there. That's kind of what they're doing. They're not just doing info collection. It's counterintelligence. They're, you know, they have whole departments. And so do you ever feel like during your career as an interviewer and a content creator, a podcast or whatever you want to call it? Have you ever felt a subtle presence in maybe the guests or maybe the guests that are being suggested to you? Has that ever, obviously, it's crossed your mind, I know, it's crossed mind. And anyone who's in this space, it's crossed their minds, too. But have you ever felt a gentle nudge? And sometimes you go, ah, that might have been them. Like, have you ever felt that? I think I've felt it a bunch and it's, it's often not gentle. It's like more overt and then you have to have kind of like an allergic reaction to that where you're like, like, what's an example without, without giving detail? Like, somebody would tell you something really crazy and then like, as like sort of passage material. Yeah. Like, I was telling you, I had, you know, I did this interview and the spooky guy showed up to my studio with a bunch of these other people and starts to tell me he goes, you want to know that, you know, where they capture, you know, experiences, it's a, it's a program called Star Trap and they go to move on organizations and that's where it's the honey trap for, you know, and he's telling me these things, like, like, just like, you know, right out of the gates and I'm like, dude, like, I don't, I don't know you, like, what, take me out to dinner for it. Yeah. Before you fuck me. Yeah. It's like, it's so weird. So certain things like that, you're like, what's going on and I think you can do it back is the funny thing where you can say, oh, I wonder if I can bump up against the contours of what this person actually represents as far as truth seeking and like, trigger a thing, you know, where you send a thing about some, you know, say they're like trying to steer you away from the science. You send something about, like, you know, the towns around the anti-gravity stuff. And if they're like, extremely dogmatically opposed or try to like steer you clear, you're like, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to clock that. We're getting warmer. Yeah. Yeah. So you got to do it back to them. That's a good point. And it's only for your own, you know, edification to like be able to navigate this fucking spooky hall of mirrors world that we're in. Yeah. I mean, I suppose the same could be said for like the biggest debunkers. You could just look at what they debunk the most furiously and be like, oh, yeah, yeah. That's probably real totally or something there is very sensitive. That's right. Yeah. Or the debunk is, it's a mister, it's, it's too easy of a debunk. Too easy to debunk. So it's like a layup. Yeah. Yeah. But then that, you know, that always points me back to ballas R because the most respected quote unquote people who have a voice and who have something to say about this topic, and I, Bob, and yet he's said some of the most like credible stuff, like in terms of like his, you know, he's predicted things. Yeah. I'm not talking about element 115, like everybody thinks it's not that, but he's, you know, the smaller details time and time again, you go, oh, Bob was right. Bob was right. Bob was right. And for, for people to just flat out deny him. I mean, for me, that's one of those topics. That's one of those litmus tests that you go, how do you feel about Bob? And if they go, you know, I don't got to read on him. He sounds truthful. And I'm like, okay, but if they go, no, he's a bullshit or he's a con artist. I go, oh, that's a red flag for me. It's a total red flag. Well, it's also a red flag if you, because if they, if they bring up the kind of, you know, basic, you know, objections, I think that's actually reasonable. Sure, yeah. But then if you come back at them with rebuttals, good rebuttals, and then they're not even processing that, you're like, okay, what's the undetectable dark matter that is sort of motivating them? But I think after Luigi's amazing movie, S4, it's going to be, to me, it's going to be very, very hard to argue that he was not an employee at Area 51 at S4. You can then debate, you know, the science of the craft and what the craft was and was seeing that, I think, is more reasonable. Yeah. The, the other stuff, like just saying that he wasn't there, I think, is actually insane. Like you all after this movie, I think, well, I think saying that he's lying is insane. That's my take. Oh, I agree, too. I agree. He's not, yeah, yeah. I flat, I don't think he's lying. In fact, I would, I would say he's not lying. Yeah, but you, you were also saying that from the vantage point of you've met him. Sure. Yep. And I do think that gives you kind of an, you know, but to, to call him a liar for lying, sake is, is an insane claim to question the tech is fine. He questions it too. Like there's, there's no debunk there either when you're like, oh, you know, you're explaining it wrong. It's like, I don't know. Shit doesn't exist. What do you want? How do you want me to explain? He's not even convinced his gravity. Yeah. Like he's, he's like clearly open-minded to whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. And very curious about it. Yeah. I had the, you know, surreal experience of meeting him recently at our show in Austin and brought up a couple of those things where, you know, it's kind of what I described where it's like, I want to poke at the edges. And he definitely satisfied me as far, also the soft signals of being nonchalant, not having anything to prove. I felt Dan Sherman, who went on my podcast, was very similar. Yes. Where he was just like, like, I would bring up stuff that other people corroborated around a story like this guy Noah Roddick who did this foyer request. around Project Preserve Destiny, which was only a program associated with his book about black, which he sent to the Air Force and they forwarded it to the NSA, implying that it's a real program under the purview of the NSA who cited national security afterwards and said we can neither confirm nor deny or whatever. And I brought this up to Sherman and he was like, oh yeah, cool. He didn't, you know, if you don't think if you were lying, you'd be like, see, you would extend it. That's another great tell too, is that when someone's telling the truth, they won't extrapolate, they won't extend anything. They'll give you very short answers. And Bob, he's a man of few words. You talk to him, and you're like, hey, what about, have you ever thought of that? And he goes, oh, no, never thought of that. That's like the extent of what you're going to get out of it. Like you have to like, you got to pull information out of him, right? But he's, he's not one to go on a riff and just be like, well, you know, it might, it might also be that like he's not speculating. He doesn't care to, he hates it. He doesn't like being put in a position that he has to speculate. He makes him uncomfortable. So like all of these softels, like you said, are really help you convince, convince you they're like, oh, nice. He's telling the truth. Whatever that truth is, I don't, I don't know that to be the truth of the universe. But I know that what he was shown, that's what he's telling me. I wonder if you were to pull, you know, how long it's almost been 40 years since he came out. I wonder if you were to pull all of the private interactions that he's like, all the people who've had private interactions with him since then. And you were like, because I'm sure they all bring it up, right? That's what he's known for. He's like this walking advertisement for this reverse engineering program. So you, you were to pull them and be like, what do you think about his like authenticity? I'm sure it would be like 99 overwhelming. Yeah, like he was just a dude. No, you know, it was amazing. Yeah, my buddy who reads body language. Yeah, yeah. There's two things he will not do on camera is the moon landing press conference. Uh-huh. And bobbles are so many questions there. Well, I guess why both. So the moon landing? Yeah, because he it's so blatantly obvious that some things up. Thank you. It's so obvious. So he won't do it because it's a sacred cow of like American history or whatever? No, he's, he's Canadian. So then what he doesn't want to have to deal with the fallout. Yeah. Of his audit because he's he's a like big skeptic of everything. He's a mentalist friend of mine. He's skeptical on most things. Yeah. Like 99% of things. And he's finally coming around to UFOs because he, you know, he read Grush's body language. I guess so. Yeah. Blue. Yeah. Exactly. He's done. He's done a few of them and he's really good at it. Yep. Um, but he won't do Bob. Yep. And he told me, uh, he did actually do Bob on Patreon. We have a little half episodes over. I was like, you're going to do it on the Patreon. And I had him do it. Uh, so we have this head tilt with it with an eyebrow flashing that the one side is just the one side not that does this like a quickness. Mm-hmm. Look, man, this is what I'm telling you. Like, this is what does that mean? Okay. So, so the contempt looks like that. Contempt looks one side of your mouth like this. So contempt is, uh, when you're looking down on something or judging something. So, but that's not it doesn't make sense in this context. It doesn't make sense. Uh, very. Okay. There's something there. It's called an exclusion. Qualifier. Everybody I've run into was very positive. Mm-hmm. So there might have been some negative. There might have been some negative that he's aware of. But exclusion. Qualifiers is like, when you ask me a question and I focus in on part of the answer. So by saying something like, basically or, uh, essentially, or, uh, literally like he just did to say, everybody I've run into was very positive. So that's, listen, that's as close as I could come to being like, there's something that's being concealed. Okay. So if the people you ran into were positive, who is it? But the whole time he was like, yeah, I, with Bob, it's interesting because he says his facial expression doesn't match what he's saying. And it's inconsistent. And that usually is the tell of someone who has like, uh, maybe some type of like autism or like, um, not full fledge, but like, um, just a little more sort of, I guess, left brained or, um, and, and just analytical and sort of analyzing things in a different way. So he's not really, uh, using any emotion when he speaks. And so as, as you can't really read him, and that coupled with the fact that he doesn't think he's lying. And, you know, and he just goes like, yeah. But he also, he did re Travis Walton. And he's like, whatever this guy's saying, put him in a Hollywood movie if he's lying. Whoa. Yeah. Wow. He's like, definitely, uh, definitely traumatic experience for this guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I won't do Bob because he's like, hey, you know, and he's, he's a big skeptic, but he just won't do. But he also, it basically believes the story. But then he also says that it's like, I don't think I don't think he's comfortable. I don't want to speak for him, but I think he's comfortable in believing. Okay. Interesting. I think it rubs up, you know, the, the rubs are skeptic around. Well, you should, he should do the, the Neil Armstrong press conference. I don't know why he won't do that. Yeah. That's, I mean, at this point, everything's unraveling. Because it's so obvious. Yes. The mainstream narrative of everything is like, you have pizza gators being vindicated. So just, yeah, but I think the moon landing stuff is touchy because it's sort of one dimension sort of removed from flat earth is moon landing deniers. And it gets, it gets murky there because it's not exactly denying the moon landing. It's denying perhaps aspects of the moon landing that were presented to us. Yeah. You know what I mean? And questioning that during a time where height intentions with Russia and there's a race and all these things. So there is grounds to question a phone call from a landline to the moon like, and the type of vehicles and like, there's a lot, there's a lot, there's a lot of interesting stuff. Absolutely. But I do think there's an interesting midpoint to that is not we fake the moon landing, but you know, it's also not that the prima facie story is, is only real and it involves UFOs. Right. And if we now have Beatrice Viorial who's a Stockholm University PhD in physics, or an astrophysics rather, and she has done this amazing study of these plates from the Palomar Observatory, which was one of the most prominent in use observatories in the 40s and 50s. From 1949 to 1957, Sputnik was not a thing until 1957. No satellites up in space. And she has 10 to 15,000 a year roughly of these transients, these light reflecting objects, which are mirror like metallic, metallic. And by the way, seem to seem to be flat and are also camping out, you know, predominantly that the transients where the sun is facing the earth. So there's a drop off in the earth shadow, which you would expect if that we were a real object and not a chemical defect or a stain or some issue with the plates, which is what a lot of the detractors might say. Exactly, because you'll see that same reflection in the darkness. Yeah. You have intelligent plate defects that are playing favorite makes literally no sense. If the UAP UFO, whatever they were, those craft, those transients were to stay in the shadows. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Which is so wild. Yes. Like, you know, you wonder if maybe they knew that. But you also wondered then if you are traveling out of space. So these are roughly in geo. I think it's like 35,000 kilometers plus in space, but still in Earth's orbit. And if you're traveling into deep space, you might encounter some of these objects if they're really showing up that many times. That's a pretty remarkable, you know, number not to mention going back to Harold Malmgren. He literally talks about blue-gill triple prime, which occurred actually, I believe, it was October of 1963. I think it was around the Cuban Missile Crisis. And it was Johnston a toll in the Marshall Islands. And the whole goal of the Starfish Prime series of high altitude nuclear tests was to rip a hole in the Van Allen belt, which is essentially the Earth's magnetosphere, which guards us from neutron bombardment and solar radiation. And so what happens when he poke a hole in the magnetosphere of the Earth? What comes out? UFOs that Harold Malmgren held in his hands. Yeah. That he was Lawrence Preston Geiss, who's Jeff Bezos' maternal grandfather, Crazy Fact, who is head of the Atomic Energy Commission, Albuquerque Branch, literally hands to Malmgren. And he holds the UFO in his hands. So if that's what's coming out and you have all other, by the way, people coming out around the Starfish Prime series, saying that they've seen stuff. This is Guy David Noble, White Crow, who saw something. In fact, Bob Jacobs, who has a famous story in 1964, when he stationed at Vandenberg Air Force Base, was also stationed at the Marshall Islands during those tests. And there was all-- You know that. Yes. And I have a lot of videos saying that there was a rumor that things were being shot out of the sky. And he said that UFOs were being used as a cover for something else at the time. But then you kind of quiz him on those things, and he's like, "I have no idea." I don't know. So even like the water cooler talk was that UFOs were like appearing around this stuff. Not to mention, there is a FOIA request to the NNSA, the National Nuclear Security Administration, saying, "I want all of the records around UAPs, UAVs, UFOs, literally every acronym related to UFO around the Starfish Prime series." And they say we cannot you have a be is exact. They say we cannot get into this. The responsive records have been sent to the relevant subject matter expert, which is not a normal neither confirmed nor denied. It's saying there are responsive records, but they're going to someone specifically with those acronyms on them. So you get into these trippy going back to the moon landing thing, then you have, you know, possible audio. That's a little weird. You have the Gemini missions, where some stuff might have occurred in electromagnetic outage. And so a lot of audio actually, a lot of audio of like astronauts throughout the years. And astronauts coming back from space and being like, I saw giant snake or like whatever. You know, there's a lot of Gordon Cooper, you know, take that for whatever that's for. But that guy drones on and on about UFOs. And he was the first guy to spend a lot of time in Earth's orbit. He didn't go to the moon, but he spent, you know, in his Mercury missions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He talked about Mars, talks about, yeah. So the point is you have this really interesting facts pattern. And then you have this, you know, debrief press conference of these three guys that look like they're in a hostage video. And it looks like if you do the before and after, this like these studly American heroes and that like these then turned out to be alcoholics and like depressed alcoholics who make all sorts of weird cryptic statements constantly. I mean, Buzz Aldrin is just like you hit every one of his interviews as gold. Little little girl asked him, did we go to the moon? Well, what we didn't. Couldn't lie to her. It's either that or him getting triggered in punching Bart Sibrell in the face. It's one or the other. It's like, I can't blame him for that. I'm sure your body language guy, if he went through his whole fact pattern, your parts are fat. That's funny. He might have deserved it. If you looked through the entire fact pattern, you'd be like, that guy's hiding something. And then by the way, apparently he was a pilot in World War II, Buzz Aldrin. And I think he saw you, according to his sister, he saw you, I think, you know, around Japan. And James Fox chased him around the world for a year and almost interviewed him in Monte Carlo, in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin got about UFOs, obviously, because James Fox. And Buzz Aldrin goes, what would my testimony do? Which is, to me, it's like, obviously, you know something about UFOs. And then all these astronauts sign NDAs. You have Tim Taylor's and Assa Mission Controller, who talks about, you know, astronauts seeing stuff in space. You have Dr. E. O'Whiteley, who is the goddaughter of Leonev, who is one of the fathers of the Russian rocketry program. And she says she's like, you know, a psychologist for a lot of these high performing astronauts, and they all see stuff. So it's, again, it's like so much smoke. There's no fire, but so much smoke. And, you know, in a few weeks after the, you know, the Epstein revelations also, so much smoke, but, you know, we've been gaslit for so long. That's true. Yeah, everybody is getting their conspiracy theory. You know, all the conspiracy theories are turning out to be true, except for flatter. Flatter, earthers got it really rough this time around. There's like everyone. Every single one. Like, where's our file? We'll see. What about the dome? Really? It's not real. I'm like, sorry, yeah, all of them. Every single one, Chubacabra, all of them, you know, but not that, sorry. Yeah, poor them. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, you really, you're really like bullish on the moon stuff. I'm bullish on there being more to the story. And they're being some optical management around it. I'm not bullish on like us definitely not having gone to the moon. All right, trillion dollar budget. What one test would you do to sort of get more information from the moon? It's such an interesting question. I mean, within our capability, I'd put it into going back to the moon. Because look at what SpaceX is spending currently. Do you know, like, so Starship is there, you know, it's like 150, 200 ton payload capacity rocket. And it's twice the size of the Saturn rockets. And what it has to do to go to the moon, and there's even a Werner von Braun speech about this from the 50s being like, we need two stages to get to the moon. Yeah. And so what we have to do with Starship, that was on the births like big sort of claims why we never went. Bart's debunks have issues too. And like, so again, I don't want to like conclusively say that we haven't gone to the moon. But it seems awfully hard for something that we handily did. And then there's neutron. But you know, once you once you get outside of the Van Allen radiation belt, you're completely bombarded with neutrons. Like it's, it's, you know, the cosmic radiation is extremely high and hard to withstand. So I think it's the, the easy, the kind of dumb, you know, answer your question is like, I would try to recreate it like with current rocket technology. And yeah. And then, and then again, I think the midpoint, maybe, maybe more realistic conspiracies. Okay, maybe you do end up going to the moon, but maybe you see some really interesting shit along the way. Yeah, that's probably, that's probably true. Probably, yeah, you probably don't even have to leave the planet to like start seeing some trippy stuff. I think as soon as you get to like a threshold, you're probably experiencing some stuff. And not only are you seeing, you know, probably like plasma beings and all sorts of other like wild and trippy, you know, entities, you're probably going through this crazy ontological shift that so many astronauts have had having this perspective from Earth being, you know, what is it called, the perspective effect? The overview effect, yeah. Which literally causes conversion experiences and many of the people who experience, of course, yeah, look at all these tribal people fighting when they're all just the same. And, and then you have to ask yourself, is there something interesting about space and its effect on consciousness? If you take some of the parapsychology stuff at face value and the idea that we're not just, you know, in this kind of, you know, floating through Cartesian space, there's some sort of like interaction between mind and matter. Of course. And the weightlessness probably plays a big factor into, you know, some of that too. You feel this as well when you're doing like sound deprivation tanks, you're feeling this feeling of weightlessness. And that feeling is actually something that anchors you to reality being full of weight, like feeling your weight on a bed, feeling your weight while you're walking. These things anchor you here. And so the less senses you have that anchors you hear, I think probably the easier it is to like have these out of body astral projection experiences. John Lilly, you know, CIA guy who writes about human programming and meta programming literally invented the isolation tank to essentially mimic weightlessness and ends up speaking to the solid state entity SSI. And it says, you know, it needs more compute or some of their silicon to like manifest itself. And then you have to ask if he's sort of summoning AI in early version. Yeah, he shouldn't have done the oxygen deprivation tank. That's right. They was doing ketamine and all this was crazy. But, but, but you have Werner von Braun literally on record telling Edgar Mitchell, or I don't say on record, apocryphal story, but apocryphal story that seems somewhat corroborated. Not only is he in to parapsychology, but he's encouraging Edgar Mitchell to do like the kind of JB Ryan parapsychology pick the card experiment in space. Implying that not only is the overview effect merely a shift in perspective, but that it actually probably, you know, going into space might affect you somehow mentally on some more fun analysis. Also physiologically, like there are there are proven changes if I'm not mistaken to the body once you go up into space. Like, yeah, these weird things that they can't account for. And I might be sort of speaking out of my ass here, but there were things that they measured that that didn't really line up with leaving space. And it's as if your body knew you were in space. Yes. And you literally need to take a human resonance machine up with you in space or else your body starts to kind of malfunction. Yeah. And that goes to like anchoring yourself. It does. Yeah. But it also goes toward it's probably deeper than that. Like, if you think about biological morphology, just, you know, humans and animals, like if you put someone in a fair day chamber and they grow up, they're not going to grow normally. Like you put it, you can literally do an experiment where you put a frog embryo in a fair day chamber and it's not going to grow normally, put it next to a Wi-Fi router or like near Chernobyl and it's going to be, you know, it's too much radiation. So there is a sweet spot of ultraviolet radiation that peaks through the magnetosphere and then the human resonance of the earth, which allows for this anthropic principle driven, you know, perfect, perfect p-tree dish that we're in right now. And so you have to ask, is that going on on a level beyond biology? It's obviously going on on the biological level with the human resonance thing. But then is there something actually, extremely ontologically shocking, literally about going into space, also, you know, going back to this sort of, these people look like they've experienced trauma of Buzz Aldrin, the alarm strong, they're coming back. To me, it looks like they saw some shit. They probably saw some shit. Like to me, that's the face of like, you get to the moon and there's like already people there and they're like, all right, you made it, now turn the fuck around. And these people don't look like us and they're like 10 feet tall and they have saucers and they're all wearing suits and you're like, okay, and you go back and then that's the face I would have if I saw that. I just interviewed a guy who said he was like, I think there was a story that someone overheard Neil Armstrong talking to someone in DC and Neil Armstrong said to them, we went to the moon, we, we met beings up there and they said, you know, after what was it like six missions or whatever, it was like, you can't come back. - You can't come back, I heard that too. I want that sort of to be true, so bad. I want there to be a recording. Was there a recording? And I don't know if this is like real or some hoax, but wasn't there a recording about like, oh my God, they're here. - Yeah, but I don't know how, I don't know. - I want that to be real so bad. - Yeah, I don't, when I heard that too, I was like, everybody should know this, or it's bogus. - Or it's bogus, yeah. - But man, that'd be cool. - That'd be cool, the interest there. - Yeah, I like that big test they did where they bombed the moon and it rang like a bell for a few hours, and I was skeptical about that too, and then I looked at it and I was like, oh no, they did. - No, no, that's literally a fact. - Yeah, it's literally a fact. I was like, whoa. - Well, the craters are all the same depth apparently? - They, I think they didn't bomb it. I think they crashed the booster. - Right, yeah, of the, I think it was like Apollo 11 was like, you know, just viewing that it might be sort of, you know, somewhat hollow, and then Apollo 12 crashing the booster, and then I put, they put seismometers there, and they were like, it rang like a bell, and then you have, I think his name is Gordon MacDonald, who is Eisenhower's chief space advisor, saying, the only way in which the moon makes sense is if it's somewhat hollow and cavernous. - Right. - Which is trippy. And then you, there's so much. - Yeah, you wonder, you know, you wonder as the moon brought here. - Yeah, was it geoengineered? Why is it tidal locked, and we never see the dark side? Do you have Neil Armstrong's second expedition is in 1975 to this quote unquote Teos cave, where this, the lore is, there's this library of alien metallic artifacts, and there's this cave system at the edge of the of Ecuador and in the Amazon. And, or sorry, at the edge of the Amazon, in Ecuador. - And Neil Armstrong. - And Neil Armstrong brings a BBC film crew to go look into, you know, this thing, and it's like, you have enough conviction that there could be a there there that you wanna look into this. Why would you ever do that if you didn't have some conviction maybe from prior experience? - Sure, yeah. And, you know, having somebody from the Navy do that. You're like, oh, it's interesting. Having somebody from, you know, the army. You're like, oh, that's interesting. Having an astronaut do it, you go, wait a second. What do you know? - What do you know? - You know, yeah. - Astronauts do anything. You're like, why are you doing that? - Yeah. - And then you gave that speech of like, you know, what is it, one of, if you can remove one of Treet's protected layers or whatever. - Very ominous. - Very ominous and feels coded, you know. - A lot of the speeches feel coded. The, I mean, what is it, the Eisenhower famous Eisenhower speech? Also, Nixon or Reagan? - I think you, oh, it would tell me. Was it Reagan, the UN speech? Was that Reagan or Nixon? - Which one? - You know, if we're-- - Oh, it's Reagan. - Yeah, if we're facing an extra trust-real threat. - Yes. - Yeah, all those speeches, you put them together and you're like, it's in plain sight. - It's going on. And then you have Steven Spielberg going back to him, screening ET in the White House. - Right. - And Steven Spielberg says in an interview, Reagan faced all these national security advisors in the room and said, all of you know that what is on that screen is absolutely real or some of you in this room know that. - Yeah. - And he just stood up and he looked around the room, almost like he was putting a head count. And then he said, I want to thank you for bringing ET to the White House. We really enjoyed your movie. And then he looked around the room and he said, and there are a number of people in this room who know that everything on that screen is absolutely true. And he said it without smiling. But he said that. And everybody laughed by the way, the whole room laughed because he presented it like a joke but he wasn't smiling as he said it. - And it's like, come on, give me a break. There's Gorbachev, you know, who obviously, you know, oversaw that you know, it was first, first, you know, president after, you know, the Soviet Union fell. He, I think is on record, I think it's an interview with Charlie Rose where he talks about some UN event where he's sitting next to Reagan. And Reagan literally leans over and he goes, you know, Mr. President, would you join forces with us in the event that there were an alien threat? And he goes, he's like freaked out. And he goes, of course, Mr. President. - And then the event just like, you know, starts. - Well, (laughs) Do you have like so many of these like apocryphal stories? And I don't know. I mean, that's not even apocryphal. That is literally Gorbachev saying that. And then I literally just interviewed a guy who's president of a Russian Republic that borders Dagestan. - Kalmikia, 300,000 people. - Shout out Kalmikia, Kyrison Yuliyum Zinov, who's also president of the World Chess Federation. - That's right. - And he debriefed with Gorbachev and Gorbachev brought Kissinger and he said it seemed like Kissinger knew all about this whole topic. And me, you, UAP Gerb, we've all uncovered all sorts of interesting stuff around Kissinger, you know, being involved in this sort of topic. So then you have this, like he doesn't know the research we're doing. He doesn't, you know, Kyrison Yuliyum Zinov isn't like tracking American podcast media. - Yeah, he just happened to drop a name that was really relevant. - That was extremely relevant. - Yeah. It's kind of interesting. - Oh man. Yep. How long do you think we're gonna have to fight this fight for? Before we get some answers. - Do you think you'll get it before, like do you, obviously there's this hub hub of 2027, 2034, all these different dates? Do you have a timeline? Do you think like, if I don't get it by X, I'm just, I'm done with this? Or do you think it'll, do you think it's imminent? Do you think it's, I don't like to make my interest in this stuff contingent on any revelation from any authority figure. - Sure. - It's sort of like literally antithetical to the search itself. - But I mean, at what point do you just go like, just, you know, something's gotta give? - Yeah, I mean, look, my hope is I will not have like, left like a more like, you know, prestigious job in venture capital to like start a YouTube channel on something that will remain fringe forever. I would love to see this accepted in the mainstream. I think that would be absolutely amazing. And I would have expressed more pessimism six months ago. Today, today Trump literally just said something about this topic. - Okay. - Literally like it, you know, implicitly said that aliens are classified and Obama let out classified info by talking about them. And so do I see that like ramping up like possibly? I think that's extremely interesting. And then as things get kind of scarier on like a geopolitical level, I do see this being like, not only like is the alien intervention like possibly more imminent, but, you know, the military industrial complex which has kind of held this so tightly. A, they probably need to let it out for cynical reasons because they're like this stuff. We've obviously been trying to like weaponize it for so long and nobody knows what this, you know, we don't know. We have, this hasn't been a functioning of a program. It's not, it's not the Manhattan Project 2.0 anymore. Like the best and brightest physicists aren't on this stuff anymore so like they'll start to talk about it then. - Yeah. - There are some good news. - Okay, breaking tweet right now, Donald J Trump, we'll be talking about true social recently. - Yeah. - And we're just getting this now as his live. Based on the tremendous interest shown, I will be directing the Secretary of War and other relevant departments and agencies to begin the process of identifying and releasing government files to alien and extraterrestrial life, unidentified aerial phenomena and unidentified flying objects, UFOs. And any and all other information connected to these highly complex but extremely interesting and important matters, God bless America. - You just got the chills. - Me too. - That is insane. - We were, we were just talking about this whole, we have, we have a UAP Gurb and come say hi. UAP Gurb and Luigi. - This is breaking news dude. - I thought you guys had to go or something. - It was like we're reading it and I, you know. - Oh, my God. - Dude, when, when did you tweet this? - About 20 minutes ago. - Yeah. - What's fucking go? - Dude, that's wild. We're literally talking about this. - This is insane. We were literally just being like, we hope we're not, you know, like marginalized. - I literally just asked you, I was like, you know why we'd like, what last, is Trump the guy? Like that's all we talked about pretty much other than the moon stuff. - I wanna cry, I'm so pumped. (laughing) - Conversation like another level. - Dude, I'm gonna read this one more time. Based on the tremendous interest shown, I will be directing the Secretary of War. - Pete, Pete Hankseth basically runs the DOD. - Yes, he says the Secretary of War. - And other relevant departments and agencies. (laughing) - To begin the process of identifying and releasing government files related to alien and extraterrestrial life, he's being crystal clear. - What's fucking go? - Unidentified aerial phenomena, UAP, and unidentified flying objects, UFOs. He didn't leave anything out. - No, he didn't. - He was extremely-- - And you're not gonna take that back. You cannot put that back back. - There's no run in that back. - Holy shit, guys. - Dude, do we just get some type of like, beginning of disclosure? This is epic. Yeah. this happening? - There is no going back from this as far as the questions that are gonna be asked by everyone going forward. And I think it's impossible to stop that train. - That's gonna snowball. - It could come out with something that denies it, but I doubt that. - But even if they tried to do that, that is such a, that is, I mean, that is like a disclosure statement. - Well, it's what's going to lead to disclosure. Thank you. He literally says I'm directing the Secretary of War and all other relevant departments and agencies to basically look into and reveal and everything we know about aliens actually. Oh my God. - Fuck. - Dude, the shit show that is happening underground somewhere in the desert is probably insane right now. - You got people throwing tarps over Tic Tacs. We got people, yeah, this is probably, oh my God, this is chaotic. - This is chaotic and it's epic. - Holy cow. - I'm so happy. And honestly, there's a little part of you feel a little vindicated. Just all the conversations. - No, but just this conversation particularly. - Well, this is wild. - We were just talking about this. - No, it's a crazy synchronicity. - We could talk about anything. - I know. - And we, and normally I wouldn't even get into politics that much 'cause I'm like, okay, I don't care. - I know. - Whatever. And for some reason, I felt really compelled today - I did too. - To talk about Obama, Trump, and usually I don't care. Like what they say. - Yeah. - Wild. - It's wild. And I think you got a rush to deliver this podcast, man. - Damn. - I got Ross coming out tomorrow. - We'll do that, I don't know, whenever you want. - Yeah. - You think, but this is crazy. - You might have to just put this out after tomorrow. - I don't know, man. It's real. - Live reaction to Donald Trump getting ready for his closure. It's taking me everything not to grab my phone and scroll through Twitter right now. - I know. - It must be, dude, all the skeptics. - Ah. - I mean, both of our phones must be just blown up. For sure. - Ah, for sure. - And Luigi and you, AP Gerrit, like. - I was hearing, I was hearing. - I mean, we're all the token, like, you know, UFO friends of like all of our people. - Oh yeah. - And they get this. - Yeah, Brigham just text me. (laughing) The White House. Dude, the White House tweeted this. - Fuckin' A. - This is unbelievable. - That's crazy. - That's crazy. - I'm, dude, I want to, I want to scroll for 10 minutes and come back and do this pod and see like, I'm down. - I want to see what people are saying. - Yeah, we can do that. - All right, let's do that, all right, let's do that. - When you work the way I do, you don't really log off. You edit late, you research late, and somewhere in there, you realize you haven't eaten anything real. And that used to mean random takeout or standing in the kitchen, staring at the fridge, like it was going to give me answers. But now I use HelloFresh. The box shows up and ingredients are pre-portioned. The recipe card walks you through it in about 30 minutes later, dinner's done. No grocery runs, no overthinking. They've got over 100 recipes every week. Steak, seafood, at no extra cost. 35 plus high protein options, Mediterranean and GLP-1 friendly meals too. And the ingredients, sustainably sourced seafood, antibiotic-free chicken and seasonal produce that actually tastes like something. It just removes the friction, and I can focus on the work, and still eat well. And today, I've made myself this smoky, chipotle chicken sandwich when I was just about to default to junk food. I use this, and you should too. Go to HelloFresh.com/Area5210FM to get 10 free meals plus a free swimming knife. That's $144.99 value on your third box, offer valid while supplies last, free meals applied at discount on first box, new subscribers only and varies by plan. Again, that's hellofresh.com/Area5210FM. It's one less mystery to solve at the end of the night. Now, if you'll excuse me, thank you, HelloFar, now back for food. - Okay. Pretty insane. - Insane. - You know, so we had to take a break and just kind of soak in this moment, we held a Twitter spaces, which never do this. I've done it once. Jess, I don't think you've ever done it. And we just wanted to kind of get the reaction and the gestalt of all the people sort of feeling the feelings that we're feeling right now. And, you know, I'll let you speak to it. There was obviously a lot of, you know, initial knee jerk. This is an Epstein cover, which is to be expected. But, you know, there were some great conversations that came with that. You want to touch on that a little bit? - Yeah, I think we landed on yes, the motives of the thing might be cynical, but the thing being true or false is completely orthogonal and separate to the motives possibly, you know, involving distracting from other things. - Absolutely. - And the nature of reality is on the line, right? So both are extremely important. We shouldn't let up on the Epstein stuff. - Obviously. But I think it's actually interesting like in that it's somewhat analogous where as much as there are still more files to come out, they've probably been sanitized, you know, this administration promised transparency around the issue. And in some ways, they've been wrestled to the ground on it. Like, it's, you know, it was this initial like we're gonna get transparency on it. And then it was like, you know, Cash Patel making some denials and then it was like, and then Pambondi getting dragged through the mud. And then, you know, a lot of redactions, but the files are slowly coming out due to mace and messy and a lot of these people. And I think there is almost no chance after a tweet that is this declarative about inquiring into this stuff, which inquiring into it, saying even, you know, it like that, you're implying that there is a there there. And it's funny to see my most like, kind of rational, esceptic friends text me being like, I wonder if they find anything. It's like, dude, I've like literally like, like, I've been to DC, like, like, you know, I don't know, probably once a year for the past three or four years, I fucking hate it. I find everybody to place it is there. But every time you like meet with people around that area, they, it's an open secret. Like, which is funny to see like, you know, so I still think there's this consensus like lag where like they just haven't quite caught up. And I think this statement from Trump, where there's no chance he's going to like it's can worms. It's a can or you open up a can or you can't put the cap back in the bag. And it just increases the service area, you know, say he retracts it immediately, four or five fold. And then if he doesn't, and they find it, it's a hundred fold. And it's like, it becomes taught in mainstream academia. And it's, it's, it's just, it's the beginning of infinity on the topic. Yeah, yeah. Well said, I also think that there's an interesting take here because a lot of people's skepticism isn't necessarily about the UFO topic. You know, Luigi had mentioned something interesting too, is that this is quite unique in that Barack Obama actually said aliens are real, which gets the Democrats on that side too. So it became this sort of bipartisan argument about aliens, which is quite interesting how it started. But then at the other end, you have people who generally hate everything that Trump says, right? And they have the reasons and that's totally fine. But even the people who hate Trump and who think that, oh, this is just him trying to get away because they got some dirt on him about Epstein, which is probably, you know, likely. It's very likely. That being said, it almost acts as a sort of, almost like a small dose of ontological truth where they don't have to swallow the full pill. A lot of people who've been following Trump really closely are probably, I'm guessing, because this is more of like, it's become unfortunately more of like a Republican thing, especially within Congress and you sort of, you know, the arguments online and whatever. But it's kind of both sides. A lot of the disclosure push of the last 10 years has come from, I agree. I only mean, I only mean recently and, but the people who are, you know, completely against anything that Trump says, now they have to sort of subliminally swallow this pill, right? That, okay, let's say it is all Epstein stuff. You're still being told the president's looking into aliens. There's no hiding from that statement. And so it acts as like a soft push ontologically, I think. And so almost a net positive for everyone because just getting that truth from a president you love and admire might be a lot, right? If Obama had this, flip the script a little bit. It's a few years ago, Obama comes out and says, I do the popular demand, I'm looking into aliens and we're going to find aliens and he says it unironically and not as a joke or as a snarky comment on a podcast or a, you know, a late night show, but he says it is a real like he tweets out or whatever. That might be shocking to a lot of people who follow him. Not so shocking if Trump tweets it because he tweets a lot of wild shit. but for the people who do. don't want to believe or don't really care for Trump, now they're forced to kind of have to swallow that in a way that might be a little healthier instead of just getting it all at once too. So I don't know, maybe an interesting take there, but, you know, Trump say what you will about the guy, but like he acts on instinct, he shoots by the hip and he is not the embodiment of the bureaucracy, which a lot of other presidents seem to be like this outgrowth of these, you know, and then you get these like kind of, you get these statements like, you know, you're actually the mayor, you're not like this, you know, world dictator, you're really constrained as far as, you know, any sort of action that you can take. And so yeah, no, look, just the fact that a president is making this statement is saying that we are looking into extraterrestrial life and that in all the derivatives of that word and those implications, like not just UAP, not just UAP, you know, not biologics. You had statements all the way up to that level. You had it from ex presidents, but you didn't have a sitting president saying, we, I have like ordered the Department of War to do that. And then the, you know, Secretary of War, former Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegg said, literally putting it, retweeting it with an alien emoji and a saluting emoji. Yeah. That was probably the most mind blowing tweet I read it of like, obviously everybody's tweeting at every, you know, you're, and, and the fact that they're totally fumbling on the Epstein thing makes probably makes him more motivated to get to the actual truth on this. Yeah, absolutely. And might even motivate people who are against Trump to go through the Epstein stuff and get more of that out. So a net positive on both of those fronts. It's totally. Wow. And just if you take the idea that like the UFO stuff speaks to the nature of reality, like the world we're in, we're swimming in, then politics is downstream of that. And the Epstein stuff is fucking weird. Yeah. Do anything, but yeah, but do the things connect at some point. And if you're saying that a truth here is going to actually cause a deficit in your ability to get to the truth here when this truth is really weird, they are positive something. They're not zero something. So let's get to the truth on both. This is awesome. Absolutely. And I think, I think it is a push on the right direction for everything. It's, it's, you know, we've never really hosted one of these spaces ago on Twitter and it's hundreds of people. And we heard from some of, you know, the people in the community, which is really nice to sort of let them chime in because I was really curious on what the pulse, am I reading this wrong? Is there, am I reading into this too much? Am I getting excited for nothing? There is, there are those possibilities. Obviously that. Okay. Some people are like, it's going to be a nothing burger or he's just, he's doing it for the clicks or whatever. Yes. All true. Fine. Whatever. But I wanted to hear from people and see how they felt about it. And there is an obvious sense of deserved skepticism. But underneath that, it's nice to hear that there is a hopeful tone from the community, from people, yes, that people are skeptical and you have a right to be an I am too. But in this moment, in this particular moment in time, you know, I feel a little hopeful. I feel so hopeful. I think it's a, it's a, it's a moment in history that we'll never forget. And I think you can't put the cap back in the bag because once you, once you say that you're tacitly admitting there's probably a there there. It's clearly in reaction to this bomb, Obama stuff, and this thing has just been building. And if you know anything about like, I think the way governments kind of perform these distractions or sigh out or any of this stuff, it's you're, usually you're not hiding something that's, you're, you're usually not like constructing something that's like wholly fabricated. Yeah. You are, you might be like, say, look over here, but the thing over there is often true. Sure. And so it might be expedient or whatever for them to look at aliens right now, which is crazy that we're on the timeline where that is the distraction for anything because for the longest time, it was like everything was the distraction for that for that. But that doesn't mean that it's not true. And again, and again, if you just like, say one more step, it's like, what are the implications if true on this stuff and like both you and I have like levered our lives into this stuff and kind of know it's true. Yeah. So like, then at that point, it's like, this is great. This is really cool. And it's going to legit like think about the fucking random kid in his bedroom seeing this, who's just like, you know, disillusioned with like the received wisdom shitty education they're getting or whatever. And they see this thing come through and, you know, maybe they're a fan of some like alien sci-fi movies, but they don't know any of this stuff could be legit, you know, and maybe they've heard smatter. Yeah, it sparks. It sparks an interest. And you're like, oh my God, maybe, you know, if the president's saying this, you know, wow, and then you start to look into the lore and you find a podcaster, you find a movie here. The butterfly effect of that tweet is something that will undoubtedly have an effect on the world. I'm sure people are not going to want to admit that, and they're going to want to debate me on that. But it's impossible that you debate something like that because the amount of influence that this person has is great, yes, is enormous. And now that that tweets being shared by everyone, there is without a doubt a renewed interest in the topic, like you said, like, you know, reaching this little kid in his room or reaching somebody that was out of the UFO space for years, or as we mentioned on this space, possibly potentially even influencing and inspiring a whistleblower to now come forward and seeing this as a call of action. This might be, this might be, this might be like the flare, the signal flare that a lot of these people need it, saying my commander in chief is essentially behind me if I come out. Yes. I don't feel like I'm alone. I feel like I'm not going to be laughed out of the room. I feel like this is the right time to come out. And if anything, there's an executive mandate from the White House to gain clarity on this. Correct. So you're being asked by the president as somebody working on these programs, yes, especially if you think they're run in ineffective corrupt dysfunctional ways that are actually not always at the best interest of the country or national security to go directly to the White House. And what's up? Yeah. And then I think, and then Trump is somebody who cares about optics and he's not somebody who I think, you know, is just going to like, you don't, you don't say something like that. And then you probably probably not this reaction. Yeah. And that's the thing. He's also good at catering to his ego right now. It is. And he's good at testing the waters, seeing how people react and then deciding whether to double down. And I can already tell you without, you know, the data, you know, hasn't, you know, come in fully, but he's going to view this as a successful test. Absolutely. And he's going to double down and there's going to, you know, even if we do get slow dripped into disclosure, at least we know what's happening and at least we know there's like activity. Yeah. And I mean, I think there's a, like a decent polemic on society today, which is like the smartest people work on the dumbest problems. We live in this overfinancialized society where we're like trading derivatives on derivatives on Wall Street and it's, you know, to, to make any money out of college. It's like banking, consulting, like some of these jobs that like aren't, you know, or like you're like in the unique case where you start a really successful startup. And even that's being changed tremendously by AI. And so you have this like runaway wealth accrual. And a lot of those jobs don't even involve like value creation. They're kind of value extracting and like, you know, it's like you're trading cards. But like with the like the underline productive horsepower of the economy and we're moving away from like doing things that are real and it involves technology and it involves physics that like we don't break some modern physics and like, you know, and metal you've never seen before and, you know, you know, lift and anti-gravity propulsion and all this shit that like we don't have access to on the civil side. And so you have this brain drain of these, you know, best and brightest going into these like boring jobs that are like zero sum and extractive. And then you have like this possible like kernel of an economy being sat on by these, you know, FFRDC's defense contractors like all the stuff that Gerb has like mapped out in his amazing channel. And it's stuck in these like stultified little dark corners and like let's bring that to the light. It could really change the world and you could say some of it has dual use implications or whatever. But like it looks like World War three might start in the Middle East. So let's maybe start to look into that now. And that's really cool and exciting. Oh, it absolutely is. And not something to be cynical about. Yeah. No, definitely not. It's something to be hopeful for. And there's a net positive here somewhere. You know, Luigi says something really cool too when we were, you know, all talking on the spaces, he was talking about sort of how this, you know, how the next steps here might end up being the conversation of offering immunity again, you know, this might, we might start to hear this a lot more now. Yeah. Because that is a very real way to get some of the people in the program to come forward. And in fact, the only way I think isn't to kick down doors and to threaten them with jail time, is to offer them immunity and look, as long as you say everything you know under oath, everything, without omitting anything, you're off the hook. I think we're going to start hearing talk about that. I think a lot more now that this is out there. I think you will hear talk about that. And then simultaneously, I think maybe some of Trump's enemies were involved in some of these UFO activities. And so you might also see selective targeting of some of those people around some malfeasance or whatever. Oh, I see you think some assassinations are going to start happening. Oh, I don't want to say assassin. No, no, no, I just think like ex-YZ person isn't a fan of Trump. But was it implicated in sort of these like covert UFO programs where misappropriation of funds occur? Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. But we're dealing with a hefty sum of money and a lot of secrets and a lot of people who would do anything to protect those secrets. We know this already. This isn't news. The whistleblowers have told us this much of the reprisals and all sorts of threats that have happened. Well, I think if anything like that would occur, they would occur within the program to deter people from coming out. Yeah, I'm talking about like or from speaking. The Trump side being like, Hey, this this person like is the left in the right are never been more at war. And like yeah, I guess yeah, we're on we're on different. Yeah, we're on different. I'm just like my head's going straight to like all the people scrambling right now somewhere in a in a deep underground military installation. Yeah, who are reading this tweet on their, you know, on their break after they grab their secureized phone from like their Faraday box and they're looking at, you know, truth social or Twitter or whatever. And they read this tweet and you just start hearing in the halls of these cavernous installations, the murmurs of people and their excitement and their worry. And you just you're hearing the chatter and you can't help but it's very audible because everybody's looking at each other like holy shit like these people. Yeah, yeah, not people, you know, above ground. I mean the people who are very close to the stuff, guaranteed this tea is spilled and those people are cleaning it up right now. They're like, dude, did you just did you got to imagine I can't even fathom what that must be like right now, but the atmosphere in these high stress intense environments where stress levels are already really high due to high security and like compartmentalized, you know, access and information. This must be just the most like wild thing. I'm sure at the individual contributor level, there's a ton of disparate pockets of a lot of excitement and oh my god, I'm being heard for the first time and then I'm sure the managerial and executive level, like you all shut up. Everybody here shuts up. You don't say word. I know you're on Twitter. Yeah, shut up. No, they're probably thinking we're in Vichy France and D days about to occur. Yeah. And you know better cover our ads. You're with us. You're against us. Yeah. And whatever, whatever the fuck happened to the Epstein files, when that was telegraphs around transparency from the Trump incoming Trump admin is probably might be happy. I bet you a lot of documents are being burned right now. Oh, definitely shredded burned, you know, places being completely leveled. I'm sure things being moved. His Trump is, you know, he definitely, he, I was going to say, you want to see what's going on right now. Look at who's ordering pizza at this hour, like for real. You know, like they had when they had the spikes of, you know, when I think Iran was being bombed, was it Iran or Palestine or a, when Palestine was being bombed by Israel or whatever, when the strike first happened, the Pentagon had like a giant order of pizzas that night before the strike happened. Right. And so there's the strange metric, but exactly like people are like, all right, we're in for a long night and like, you know, go around the country and look at where pizza's just being flooded into these strange areas. And you're probably, you're probably going to stumble on some, yeah, some worried people. Yeah. And Trump, you know, it's like talk softly and carry a big stick. You stick. Trump talks big and carries a big stick. He, he follows up on the thing. He literally just like kidnapped the president of Venezuela. Like the guy that you can criticize him for whatever you want, but the guy takes action. Yeah. He does just move on things. And when he, he says he's going to do things like he'll say stuff about tariffs. He's going to be China and he'll do it. And the stock market will tank. And he's like, well, I'm just renegotiating the world. And it's all this art of the deal stuff. Yeah. And so I don't know what the deal, you know, well, the deal here is clear. I mean, he, he starts his tweet off with due to popular demand. Right. So obviously you show your hand right away, which again, net positive. Huge. But he's also signaling that like, oh, this is people like me now. This is I'm a hero. All right. And if people just keep doubling down on that, dude, we can appeal to his ego and gaslight this guy to give us UFOs. Like this is, this is what we're doing right now. We need to like praise this guy. He's like, you're doing a great job, Donald. I mean, just keep him going. He was a reality TV star. And you know, you feed his ego a little bit totally. And he's, I think, uh, I don't know. I think he's probably feeling pumped. I'm sure he's getting positive feedback to people around him. The interesting thing about the UFO thing. And this is why I think we are going to yeah, go for it. Oh, sorry. I was going to say I wonder if there's a way to like do that with the Epstein files with him and just be like, you weren't there. You weren't on that island. I think that they wouldn't have invited you. There's no way you were important enough to be on that island and touch those kids. There's no way they would have been, but you weren't even like a big shot back then. And just watch him, like, just go, what do you, I was on that island a hundred times. Yeah, I mean, it's my take into gaslighting Trump and everything. You could probably gaslight him into everything. And just have Obama say he can't do something. And then he's just like, yeah, great friend Epstein. And I think whatever applies to him applies to the whole world. Like, they're these like game theory dynamics where, you know, we're like first to draw blood on this stuff. Like I do think you you ended up with other countries trying to like curry for like random countries, being like, well, we had a few sightings back in the day and we actually have some files on it. And then they realize that it's this like crazy popularity play visa their visa v their bases. And then they come out and then you get this sort of like the these pockets popping up and it becomes this contagion. Yeah, or other other countries potentially trying to vie for his affection as well. Like if you have some other, you know, country looking for America's protection, you know, the president said country might also be like, we're with you. We're also looking at our files. You know, we might see this. The fall out of this could be a multitude of things that lead to a very in amount of disclosure. And Russian China are thinking, oh, we're falling behind now. And like our populations are going to feel like we're, you know, not on top of this topic. I'll be I'll I'll be blunt. And this is my prediction. The amount of sightings is going to jump tenfold. Yeah. And not from actually, maybe not from actual sightings. It'll jump tenfold from people being interested in this topic, not unlike what happened with the drone situation where a lot of people were looking up filming and all the sudden sightings were going up. So it creates this like false reality that there are like more NHI or more UFOs. When in fact, it's just more people being interested in the topic. So look for a lot of sort of wild and crazy, you know, claims, all sorts of videos hitting, you know, Twitter and all the social media and even military stuff. You're going to get flier footage. This is my prediction that in the next week or so, we're going to be inundated with UFO videos. I think so too, but I I think so for that reason because of this sort of like, you know, mass consensus shift. And then I also think we're entering a very troubled and bizarre time. And you have on your amazing swaggy merch. Do you have invisible college, you know, established 1648. 1648 is the end of the 30 years war, you know, 16 is a treaty of Westphalia that they signed. And in that period, they were reporting like aerial stuff, like weird stuff happening in this guy. In fact, uh, date cart, I think, had a weird experience in the Prussian army. He was fought in the in the 30 years war of sort of this like paranormal experience. And so I think it times of like, kind of sort of really crazy disruption. And that also was when the Renaissance kicked off, like they call it like the the Rose accrucian, you know, on the Rose accrucian enlightenment or whatever is this Francis Yates book about like these Rose accrucian documents sort of spawning the enlightenment. And so I think we're living in this axial age where past meaning structures and systems all organized religion are being collapsed off, collapsing. And we're going to need new models to incorporate these observables, which are just breaking down the dam of the kind of establishment paradigm. - Exciting time to be, and this is an exciting timeline to be a part of. I got some questions, we're gonna call it after this 'cause it's getting late. - Yeah it is. - And you know, we gotta get back to do scrolling. Give me a second. - Yeah. - Thanks for, at least for doing this. - Of course man, this is fun. - That means it's a great, pretty historic. - Yeah, no, it's so cool to do this with you on a day like this. - Definitely. - It's nuts. It's so wild that we were talking about literally exactly what ended up happening as it happened. It was this big, like what the fuck? - Yeah, and contemplating what that would be like. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's like, we were like, you know, we hope this is in stigmatized forever. That is so crazy. - Yeah, that was literally the question, wasn't it? - It's crazy. - Man, I don't know if any of these questions are really relevant anymore of that sort of thing. - Why? - Well, just 'cause they're like so off topic now, like we're so, it'd be weird to like shift into something else, but I will say this is a great question. This is from HECS, so I'm gonna prompt this one here. HECS is always asking good questions. - He is asking good questions, and his name won't be on the split flag because it couldn't fit, but 130 characters. It's a great question. - If you could relive your time spent with Maungron, knowing it would be his last interview. - What would you change? - So many things, so many things. I thought I had multiple days with the guy and his health literally went downhill after that first interview. So it was a four-hour interview, but like on, he ended up getting sick after that, and then he ended up in the hospital. I stayed for a little bit to try to help Pippa to the extent I can, his daughter ended up having to leave, 'cause it was like I think 10 days into that, and then I think a couple weeks after that or something, his health was really in bad shape, and he gave me a call, and this made it into the video. We spoke, and I asked him about this time when he was, he was, this is a crazy story where he's this poor painter's son right outside of Boston, and he ends up painting the House of Carl Compton, who is the president of MIT and runs the War Production Board at the time, and you know, probably implicated, and actually literally like there are apocryphal stories of him being shown stuff at Wright Patterson. And I think this comes from Sarbacher, so it was right airfield at the time. And so like probably implicated in the UFO stuff, definitely deep in like kind of nuclear world, national security world, and Malmgrimm starts talking to him about how photons act as an entangled system. And this is literally talking about like breaking Einstein's, like literally cutting edge physics. I'm sorry, I wrote in his EPR paper about entanglement, but entanglement had never been like properly like measured, yet it was really like wild. - Yeah, and he's talking about how photons are attached and like is insane. - Yeah, they were, yeah, entanglement photons work as a system. And I think that was like 60s when that was like verified. - And Compton was like this guy. - Yeah, this was like, we got to get this guy a full ride. And then he also I think wrote a letter to the Atomic Energy Commission, Malmgrimm, and we literally were going through the pages what they wrote back. And he says, you know, it was around that time that my name got put in, you know, it was basically some like tracking list that the CIA had or whatever. - Yeah, some fast track. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Because it was clearly this prodigious genius. - And they knew that. - And yeah, and they knew that. And then he goes, not only the CIA, he goes, but the majestic, the ones who thought upon it, who thought it on themselves to guard the secrets of the world. There's something like that. - And he says the majestic. - He says the majestic. And he had throat cancer, I think 11 or 12 years earlier. So it was really hard to make out exactly what he was saying in this long phone call. And so we had to actually subtitle the entire video. And so we subtitle that part. I watch it back and I go, oh fuck. He said majestic, he said he was being tracked. - And you didn't catch it. - I didn't even catch it on the spot. - You didn't catch it on the spot. - And then you go, you look at his life and I have to say, if there's any sort of like, her medic, okay, I'll tell you a story. I'll tell you a story I never, I don't think I've ever told this story. - Okay. - We were driving him to the hospital. And it was me, Pippa, him and my girlfriend. And I asked him, have you ever, is there ever any connection? Do you ever feel like there's anything real about like a time traveling intelligence agency? Which sounds really like a weird question, but I'm down this crazy thread with the Townsend Brown stuff and him viewing himself as a time traveler. And then I've come up, there's so much evidence that he actually made progress and gravity grabbing a timer related in general relativity. And then he, there's the Tim Taylor stuff about them being part of the secret time travel group. And Malmgren's investigating all this stuff at the end of his life. And he had been talking every single thing, other thing I had asked him. I even remember specifically, I said, I was trying to remember the name of the former mayor of Leningrad and he goes, soup check. He was sharp as a tack, even with his oxygen levels at 89 as we're driving him to the hospital. So he remembers that and he's talking, he's telling all these stories about Nixon and Schultz and Pompadue and just these like world leaders, like, you know, all over the world. So also like to the debunkers, like fuck you. Like you don't understand just how sharp this guy was at an old age clearly knowing intimate details about all of these world leaders. Just pattern matched to me. And I've met a lot of smart people to somebody who was like an elite statesman. And when I asked that question about the time traveling intelligence agency, he just went silent and it was like this eerie and like Pippa noted it and we all were like, this is just, I don't know, it was straight, it was like everything else, he was like this chatterbox, like even as his health was not amazing. And I don't know, I don't know what that means. I have no idea what that means, but it was interesting. And was that in the car ride? So yeah, it was in the car. He was sitting in front. I think so. You guys were back? No, I was driving. Oh, you were driving? He was in front with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he, like you said, he was responsive to everything else you were talking to him about. Yeah. He was answering everything else. We heard you. To me, that interview was like, then this is the reason I brought a cryptos conundrum at the end of the interview. And I think shout out to Matt Pines 'cause I think he made the connect. He was like, "Charlmer's kind of reminds me of Maumgren." And to me, that interview wasn't interesting because you have a guy who's reporting to have held UFO pieces in his hand. Obviously, that's fascinating. That came out of this nuclear blast. To me, what was so interesting about that interview was the bizarre synchronicities throughout his life that only came together at the end of his life, looking backwards, and him popping up at pivotal moments where it felt like the world could have ended. And him always being the guy not taking credit in the kind of back of the room. And then at the end of his life, he almost feels this like her medic 'cause this is clearly this company man who doesn't talk. I mean, he didn't even admit he was probably an artificial cover CIA guy in the interview that I did with him. But probably like for sure was. And so he's like upholding every oath, and but somehow feels this need to talk about all this stuff. And then you have the synchronicities with Carl Compton and living in certain places at certain times and holding the material and-- - But also talking to you. - That's crazy too. And it felt deeply meaningful to me personally as well. - And I think it came across that way. And no one, no one, I mean this, no one would have had a better interview. - I appreciate you saying that, I don't know if that's true. - I think everyone would agree that like you were in Gurban and Luigi, they're nodding their heads. Like no one would have done a better job. That was you were meant to interview. Harold Moundgren. - I felt a, you're gonna make me cry man. - I felt a deep, a deep connection with him. Like he would talk about like getting called up by these people who he felt were like way above his pay grade at a young age. And you know, and they'd like saw something in him. And I definitely felt this. I felt this like weird, hermetic like-- - He saw something in you too. - I felt-- - There was a reason that he read, like there's a reason. Like there has to be a Jesse, you were with him when he died. You know, that's not nothing. And like you said, there's one chance he has to tell even the smallest part of his story that he wants people to ponder or to think about. - And there's more about that week that I don't even feel comfortable talking about publicly that I'd wanna talk to Pippa about, and I don't even know if I don't wanna speak out of turn, but it was a fucking gnarly week. It was really, really intense, right? - Yeah, do you tell me some of the details and what you went through, what people don't know, - Yeah. - Is really tough, shocking, jarring. - Really jarring, and made me extremely angry when people came after him. - I understand. - Because you had to take some time and step away. - Yeah. - Because you were so, you were still distraught from your experience, you know, during his passing. - Yeah. - That I, you know, I understand, and it's not easy. And it's not easy to hold your composure during that when you're not really given a, like a guide on how to deal with that, 'cause a wild thing to have to deal with, to be forced to deal with. But you did it really graciously, I think, and then I think even more importantly, I think you took that experience, and you made a beautiful thing out of it. And something that I'm sure, you know, many people, I'm sure he would be proud of. - I hope so, man. - Absolutely, thanks a lot. I almost wish he could have seen it, and I'm so grateful to Pippa too. And, you know, I'm really, I'm really sad, 'cause I think he wanted to do more stuff after me. And I think he wanted to say more, and this question, I mean, he's a great question by Hex. It's like, he had, so he was, it's clearly by the end of the video that this is why this question is so good. It was so obvious that he was sitting on much, much more. And so, yeah, I just wish I had more time with the guy. And it is one of these stories in this field. You're always, it's like you're chasing ghosts, and it's like right before you get the hard drive with the footage, or before you, you know, meet the person that's gonna tell you everything, whatever, it always seems to kind of slip through your fingers. But you also kind of get enough to keep going. It's this weird fucking thing. And I don't know, man. I just, I think what's saddened me most about that whole thing was he was a guy that, like, I would have loved to have, like, called a mentor and, like, spent, we could have talked for it. 'Cause he was, I love people who are at the intersection, and Pippa's a little like this, too, of trippy, and, like, but, like, operating at a high level. And there aren't too many people. Usually, it's like you're operating at a high level, you just want to make more money, or you want more power. And then occasionally, you meet somebody who's operating at that level who's tethered to something that's kind of transcendent, and you feel it with them. You feel that energy. And he had that, like, sharp as attack, like, you know, again, elite statesman, map of a world in his head, like, kind of Kissinger type in his knowledge, but then the exact opposite vibe of Kissinger. No, like, you know, he was, he was an angel surrounded by devils. He, you know, they were all bloodthirsty, and he had, like, - Pure intentions. - The brain and pure intentions, and was discreet, and, and we need people like that. And whenever I meet, you know, I just interviewed this guy, Ralph Mawat-Larson, this, you know, DOE director of Intel, and he was a CIA guy for, like, decades. And whenever I meet a guy like that, I'm always like, please, if there's anything you can, else, you can tell me on Harold, please, you know, let me know, because I really want to vent. I think that was the tip of the iceberg. I think that guy did so much more, it just silently, and in the shadows to help, and thanklessly to help the country. And I would love to help bring that to light, and, you know, if anybody out there knows anything, reach out to Pippa, please, first, and for me, and I'll send it to her. But, yeah, I don't know. (laughing) - Well, it's awesome to hear you talk with such, with such conviction about a man who you barely knew, and yet, you know, you hear this deep, deep respect for this man, and I can't help but also feel that through your work and your conviction. So, thanks for sharing. It's 11-11. - Whoa. - Last question. - Cool. - And then we'll get going. We got a show tomorrow. - We got a show tomorrow. - It's a big question by Piffry. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. - What is your end goal with what you do? At what point would you feel like you had achieved what you wanted to accomplish? - Yeah, it's a great question. I don't know, I talk about this with you all the time, and like, I get really tired of this topic. I get tired of creating content. I don't think I'm like a natural performer, content creator, person, or whatever. I just, you know, I tell you this all the time. Like, I have a show because it's leveraged to meet interesting people so I can get closer to the truth myself. And I just, I film it so that I could document it. So it gains a bigger following. So I can like get the next person on the show so I can ask them more questions and ideally get closer to some truth. But I get tired of the, you know, kind of, I don't know, the public stuff is, that's kind of hard. And like, I do think that the whole field can be very like divisive and in kind of a clearly manufactured way. And I've been thinking a lot about like the science stuff is like, I'm really interested in that. And I like it because you can't really argue against it. And so if you can put something out that's like adjacent or inspired by UFO or directly related to UFOs that is scientific and replicable and usable in like a civil side context, I feel like I'd be really happy. And I'd be like, you know what? - You made it. - Yeah, and you know, like every, you know, Chris, you fucking bear the man, you know, you do this, you know, other people do in like, you know, I don't know. - And I want out too, what are you talking about? - But like that or like a, I don't know, like a think tank where I do, I love, I love obvious, the show's so fun, but this like weekly cadence of like putting out the next thing. - It's tough. - It's tough and it to me, all I care about again is like the theoretical sense making of developing like a coherent worldview. But then you get sort of swept away with all the other things that you might think you need and might think you want due to the pressure of creating content. - That's right. - All that stuff. - And sometimes I'm like, I just want to be in like a room with a bunch of other people I respect with like, you know, little index cards and like, you know, a bulletin board or something and like creating a map of what's happening and really just thinking, like engaging and sort of deep thought, so. - But you found a way to do that and make a living out of doing that. - For sure, you know, that's an awesome thing to do as well. - I think as far as people who are like aligned with their like daily life gives, like I'm definitely in like the 90s, I love what I fucking love what I do and I'm so grateful. - But if you see a way out for you and like this is it, I've accomplished it. It would be at the end of all of your journeys, all of your seeking would be to help create or spawn some type of, I guess, technology or some type of innovation derived from the search. - It would be really awesome to like help usher something in that's like objectively just to benefit to humanity. And just this 'cause I mean, in a lot of this stuff can be dystopian and dual use, but like, whatever it's being used for in the legacy program is the bad use of it, you know, it's the bad part of the dual. And so if any of that can be, you know. - I would argue you already do that with your show. - Thank you, man. - Well, I think a lot of people would agree as well. I think that, you know, the, what you provide is, you know, in this sort of selfish quest to figure out, you know, the questions that you want answered, you're taking people along and by that answering their questions as well. So you are creating that service and that there is a demand for that and that does innovate, change and inspire the world. And so, although not a physical object you can hold that's derived from a UFO, I think the change that you create with what you're doing now is just as lasting. And if not, I think more important. - Well, I really appreciate that, man. But I still, I want some of these scientific principles I talk about to not have the current stigma they do. - Yeah, sure. - I want them to be like, oh yeah, that's a thing. - And I want you to, I want you to want that. - He making shows. - Hey, I will, I will, I will, and I will for the foreseeable feature and I'm pumped right now. But yeah, I'd be really excited about that. That would be awesome. - All right, yeah. - Well, Jesse, I know it's getting late, man. And I want to, I want to thank you for doing this so late. I appreciate, appreciate your friendship. And I want to say shout out to Gerb and Luigi. for being, you know, peanut gallery here, but also, you know, just hanging out and being here in this pretty historic moment. I'm not sure what I'm going to put up this podcast. I'm in my head right now wondering if I should release this prior to Ross and just throw it out there as a reaction or the same day. I don't know. We'll figure it out. But I appreciate you very much. Guys, go check out American Alchemy on all platforms anywhere you listen to your podcast. Follow everything Jesse does. He's an important guy, and you'll be a better person by doing so. I guarantee it. Thanks, Jesse. Love you, man. Love you too. [BLANK_AUDIO]