‘The Bear’ Drops a Secret Episode! Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ E3 and ‘Top Chef’ S23E9.

gray roots undering the chat uninvited garnier's got you garnier color sensation retouch covers up to 100 of grays in just 10 minutes no ammonia no mess and the color lasts up to four weeks it's as easy to apply as shampoo plus it's vegan and cruelty free 10 minutes sensational color sensational price with those savings your next girl's night is basically free find your perfect match at walmart.com or at a store near you this episode of the watch is presented to you by amazon prime ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for that's when prime same day delivery has your back getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines same day delivery it's on prime visit amazon.com prime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas terms apply i need supports to have to clear the room stand up and walk now hello and welcome to the watch my name is chris ryan i am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio like odysseus in the odyssey call him daddy it's andy greenwald i thought you were gonna say like odysseus in the odyssey he's american he speaks in your voice it's absolutely right this is don delillo's the odyssey greenwald packed show today uh a couple of things at the top we're gonna talk about the tony trailer um tony the movie the tony trailer not the tony's um which we could also talk about we are gonna talk about television surprise drop era because that's what we're living in uh earlier this week gary uh a standalone episode although with a lot of i think prequel and sequel connective tissue sure uh to the bear was released out of nowhere on fx starring ebb and moss back rack and john bernthal we're gonna talk about that widow's bay episode three we'll touch on uh and of course uh some top chef and maybe some after dark um some notes from the the wax of hatchie mj lunderman show that i went to which was just a blast tune in i think we should talk about the elephant in the room which is based on your behavior last weekend your behavior last night you're doing this podcast you're going straight to lax you got to catch a flight yeah people are saying you're re-apexing i i'm trying i'm trying my best people are saying it i'm trying you only live once but you're living twice this is literally what you're doing i don't want to die and be like man i could have gone to that hardcore show you know what about you and saint peter and saint peter's like it's a damn shame you got gored on the security trenchant at that hardcore show that's right let's talk about tony how about that okay uh an interesting conversation topic for us andy you've interviewed tony we're Anthony bourdain you uh have i think have it's fair to say if i have relationships with the wider anthony bourdain universe in terms of people who worked at his production company worked on his show who have worked on books about uh bourdain yeah this is a new film coming this year from matt johnson who directed uh blackberry which i'm a huge fan of and nirvana the band the show the movie he did that too yeah people love this guy matt is like a really good and it's because of uh dominic sessa who i really like as a performer and leo woodall who i like as a performer and antonio banderas who looks very activated in this trailer for tony and stavi and amelia jones who's so great in task that i am very enthusiastic about this movie even if the trailer kind of gave deliver me from nowhere vibes i see well do you think is that what was that your takeaway i think it was just it didn't yeah this is about anthony bourdain's formative summer in provincetown as he like goes from being a ne'er-do-well you know purposeless ne'er-do-well to a ne'er-do-well with a career path yes and also a guy who wanted to be a writer who decided that he was going to be a chef and then the chef decided he was going to be a writer and the writer decided he was going to be a television host who gave us so much um in in this world but what did you think of the trailer i thought it was refreshing and i think i feel quite optimistic about the movie because unlike the traditional biopic or unlike many bloated i think misguided or ultimately disappointing biopics what matt johnson seems to have done here is carved out a single scoop of a complicated life to make a movie out of it which i think is very different than being like did you like bob dylan well get ready or do you like i do like that movie okay that's the bad example maybe the better example where you attempt to get your arms around something or even the michael jackson movie which i don't think either of us have seen no but ethan hawke did did you see that i did see that yeah do you have any would you like to it seemed like he saw it from oklahoma so i imagine they're shooting yeah yeah they're shooting lowdown season two ethan hawke he had a night off and ethan hawke and cr make friends in any room you know what i mean like i think you play to any crowd sure big rooms small rooms doesn't matter you show up you put on you put on the show um i think this is a i think it's a very successful um lane for biography which is let's just take a moment and make a movie out of it and then if you want to interpolate things past that fine but we are they are from everything about it from the promotion from the the framing of it to the fact that dominic sessa is has an intensity and an energy and i think i think we agree a star charisma they're not making him look like no and that's in any way and i think that's i think the intentions are made very clear by the trailer which is also smart marketing that this is going to be a coming of age summer movie that many people may enjoy and if you also if you've read kitchen confidential if you're a fan of tony bourdain and his work there might be something that chimes with you but that is not the goal here i can't remember how significant is the provincetown stuff in kitchen confidential it's very significant i mean in his biography it's very very significant and is that the way that he cooked throughout his life really didn't change that much i think the two major factors were what he learned from the i don't know if it's a composite character if it's a one-to-one character that antonio banderas is portraying where he has like a kind of a rabbi who's showing him the ways of the kitchen yes how to cook up more wine yeah exactly um and that and then when he worked at layal in new york and it sort of went in a more french bistro direction but like from that point on even when he was tooling around the world with eric repair he was always saying like it was all it was very simple but what what the main thrust of his biography and what he presented the world was always that this the kitchen gave me um direction it gave me borders and guardrails and purpose and skills yeah that i then carried with me and the the sort of thrust of blackberry is you know obviously about the sort of creation of this device and it never saw and it's like outsider um rebellious spirit and it's more i think spiritually true than in terms of like what you're saying i think there are some composite characters i think there are moments that are dramatized that are like this didn't we don't really know what happened in this meeting or this didn't really happen but it kind of happened ultimately i i think it's cool that they're doing that and i you know i noticed that the bourdain estate came out with a statement that was like we decided that this was going to be like a a way we're going to allow tony to be dramatized because we really believed in the vision of the people making the movie so i the only reason i like bucked up against it was because amelia jones is given the unfortunate task of asking are you a good person or not yeah and spoon plays and even though i love spoon they were not big in 1970s provincetown as far as i know i mean don't put it past them but yeah i mean i i think the other thing that that tells me is the it's interesting to think about this movie as the nexus of the two a24s in that a24 is known as the place that will encourage independently minded auteurs to stake out an artistic vision and express it but they are also the company that's now making like elden ring right and god bless them so this this may hit that sweet spot of like empowering matt johnson who also gets a script he's a he gets a his name on the i don't know if he collaborated up with people or if he rewrote i think it was a script that he came in and then reworked yeah but that this was his vision for something and they wanted to work with him um but then also they are definitely aware that this has breakthrough potential late summer summer movie could be appealing coming of age kind of thing it just it just you know what it seems like smart business all around but but often when you see something like this and you look at the cast and you named it i'm like okay yeah it's a great it's a great ensemble i was curious whether or not you want this at all like is somebody with like me has like a deep relationship to bourdain's work and what he meant did you want to see a movie about him at all no but this is very very smart i think that in the years since his passing his legacy has gotten maybe this is true of any major figure his legacy has become polarized in that there is a wider and wider gulf between the sanctity of the legend and you see that in like bourdain knife tattoos on every line cook from brooklyn to bangkok plus you know the sort of the like much of what you see on reels of people being like you know like you know like you know I'm exploring the world. The real hawker stalls of my small town outside of Leeds or whatever. His quotes are like unironically written on the walls of restaurants that he probably would have hated. But the gulf between that legend and then the very messy reality, which has sort of leeched out in fits and starts and the disparity of the persona that was portrayed in various books, including the one by Tom. I'm blanking on his name, his colleague who wrote In the Weeds. He came on the podcast to talk about it a few years ago or Laurie Williver's oral history. Like, it's much messier. Sure. And so that he was always pretty like he was really upfront about that. Like he was like a place for criminals. Like he was always like fairly like it's funny to go back to early episodes of Bourdain TV and him be like, we're we're the outlaws and we are the drug addicts. And the petty thieves and the criminals, you can't get employed elsewhere. And we like jobs that get out at 1 a.m. And then we go out and party until the next day. Like it was a more rock and roll outsider profession back then. At least that's the way it was presented. But also when people tell you who they are, believe them, because I think the other thing that was compelling and I've certainly talked about this and felt this way that like to watch his various TV shows in the way that we watch TV otherwise, like as a serialized TV show about the slow evolution and growth of America. Was really meaningful because he did seem to eat first of all, he 100% changed. He also just changed back and changed again and continued to evolve as real people do. But the narrative version of him was that he was sort of, you know, becoming more the more he traveled, the less certain he became, the more open minded he became, the more committed he was to making connections with people and on a deep level and using his platform to go to places that others were afraid to go. And, you know, and then starting a family and all these things. And then you read about how the more. He traveled near the end of his life, the more agoraphobic he became and that he would essentially barricade himself in his Upper East Side apartment when he was home. And then when he would go out into the world, when he wasn't filming, he would be ordering KFC to the hotel because he just wanted familiarity, which like I find it all heartbreaking and deeply, deeply human and also too fragile and rich, honestly, for a movie or a biopic to really capture. Sure. And maybe that's good. I think that's very. He's not going to try to. Exactly. I think it's really respectful. And I think it's very it's smart business, as we were saying, but I think it's also artistically more freeing and just bottom line respectful, which is why you feel why you hear that the estate is supportive of this. Your silence has been up until this point deafening about Tom Holland's American accent in the Odyssey trailer. Do you want to comment on that before we move on? I mean, I've seen all the Spider-Man movies. But did you know that Spider-Man was also an ancient Greek character? I find he does a good American accent. Talk to me about this, because, OK, so. I only learned about this as I learned about most things. Guess who has two thumbs and doesn't give a shit. OK. If these guys are speaking in American accent. Before we say anything, I want to set the scene that I learned about this, this faux pas, the scandal via text from you. And in my tired morning brain, I thought it said, how do you feel about Tom Hollander's American accent? Yes. In the Odyssey. And I thought. I don't know that I've ever heard Tom Hollander do an American accent. Well, I would love to. And I feel like the fans of the White Lotus season two deserve that much. You know, I just think it's time. Frankly, there ought to be room for an American Tom Hollander. Tom Hollander playing Matt Damon's son would be one of the funniest things that ever happened. His older bitchy son would be awesome. OK, so, yeah, I don't I don't actually care, which what is the. So the debate is this isn't cool because some of these actors are English and also a generation, multiple generations. Of films have taught us that foreignness, even if they don't speak the actual language they were speaking historically, works if they're in an English accent, like the way we feel about Chernobyl and Star City. Yeah, I first of all, I think people just now probably associate anything that is period as English. Yes. You know, which is fine because in some ways, like it is a very pleasant thing to hear. You know, it is watching Chernobyl is and watching, like you said, the Star City trailer, like Chernobyl, watching Chernobyl. Couldn't be more pleasant. Couldn't be. I couldn't imagine a better way to spend. That's a spot of tea with it. But I think people are also reacting to the colloquial nature of the language. It's not just that it's an American, but it seems like people are like doing a little bit of like Harvey Keitel, Brooklyn Judas from Last Temptation of Christ kind of stuff. Just say John Bernthal, which I fucking love. Yeah, like I think it's interesting to make a choice and also is pretty smart. And here's why. Yeah, we can all be. We can all be kind of on X or lurking there or looking on the drug, just looking at the film Twitter discourse broadly and being like, well, they'd fuck that up. And how could what's what's he doing here? It's like, you know, who's going to dig this? Everyone. And do you know what is going to be nice for people when they go to this movie? If they're not deeply familiar with this text is hearing voices that sound familiar to them and so that they can make a connection to a classical text. Yes. And not be put off. Now, this is kind of reminds me of what happened when Kenneth Branagh first started doing filmed adaptations of Shakespeare plays. And everybody was like either scandalized by the naturalistic speed with which he was doing the language or they were like, this is great because it's introducing a whole new generation of people to too much to do about nothing. And Hamlet and all these other great plays in Henry V or Henry IV Part II. It's I think it's a really smart decision. Now. I don't know that, like, if you are a classic scholar, this might bother you. But I think I think the movie looks also shut up, nerd. I mean, get a job, sir. Come on. I don't get it all. I think I think your point is a good one, which is that it's it's actually cool to take so-called sacred texts and things off the shelf and come around a little bit, play with them, see what's up. It's funny to think about as someone who saw. Kenneth Branagh's Henry, like my parents took me to the Ritz to see Henry Henry V. I was like, cool. He has a big sword fight. Like I didn't you know, that was maybe the first Shakespeare I'd ever engaged with. To me, it still felt quite high, high class, high status. But I enjoyed the movie very much. And I became a fan of Kenneth Branagh having made it. I was certainly ignorant, as I imagine any of us in America were at that time of a certain age that like Kenneth Branagh's story is that he is working class and Irish. And like he is not to the manner born of this stuff. And so his act of democratizing Shakespeare, that's what it looked like in 1989. It might look different now, but there is a tradition of bringing the stuff down and making it workable and playable and seeing if the stuff it still moves. Right. So the other thing that's weird to me about this, and maybe this is just Twitter discourse, is like Christopher Nolan is famous for two things. He is an exacting OCD control freak about every decision that makes it onto the screen. All of those decisions make a billion dollars. So he wasn't like, oh, interesting choice that Tom is making today. Let's see how this goes. Yes, I think he asked Tom Holland to sound like Matt Damon's son. I mean, it better to have Tom Holland do an American accent than have Matt Damon and Anne Hathaway and everybody do a British accent to match Tom Holland. Do you know what's interesting? Matt Damon famously a girl dad. So it's kind of an incredible thought exercise to be Matt Damon's son. Odysseus. No, he wasn't. He was not. He was not. It all would have changed if he had been. Did you? Who was it? Oh, no. This is the idea of Nolan being like be Matt Damon's son and Tom Holland spending weeks just sipping his non-alcoholic beer brand being like, but he doesn't have one. Reminds me of that anecdote that Josh O'Connor put out about working with Spielberg. Yes. Where Spielberg texted him, just undo the latch. And he was just like, you've fixed acting for me. You're a genius, Steven. And then Steven was like, that was for my handyman. Sorry. That's great. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime's same day delivery has your back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so that you can actually join in on the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available. Available in select areas. Terms apply. Let's get into Gary. This is probably unexpectedly going to be the meat of our episode today. The beef. The beef of our episode. You know, so we had heard chirps about something coming, something Eben Moss-Bacharach, John Bernthal related coming. But even in our position of kind of needing to know about this stuff just to program the show and also, you know, being very curious about the coming. And goings and goings of the cast and crew and creative team of the beef. This was still something of a surprise in terms of what day it came out. Currently, Bacharach and Bernthal are on Broadway appearing in Dog Day Afternoon together. A production that they, I think, were very, very much, you know, hand in hand, a part of bringing to life. With Steven Adly-Gergis. Yeah. So a creative partnership there, clearly. And they co-wrote this episode called Gary. I'll do a little bit of scene setting because I'm not sure. But even if you haven't gotten a chance to see this yet, it's worth noting what kind of happens in the episode. and where it falls on, like, the bare timeline, which is not exactly, like, the galactic timeline of Star Wars, but I thought it was noteworthy, which is basically, this is an episode that takes place about eight months after Fishes, so the big Christmas dinner apocalypse from season two. In that episode, Gillian Jacobs' character, Tiff, talks about how she's got morning sickness. She's sort of just announced that she's pregnant. In this episode, she is about to give birth, so I believe this takes place the day before Tiff actually winds up giving birth. It's certainly implied. Well, and Richie tells stories about this day in a couple of different ways over the course of the series, The Bear. In the final episode of season four, he talks about it to Carmi and Cid, and in a very melancholic way, I think. And similarly, I think in season three, he talks about it with Nat, but more in relationship to, going to get spicy Thai food with Tiff the next day and that triggering her labor and that eating spicy food is apparently like a catalyst for giving birth or whatever. This is kind of just otherwise relatively unconnected. I just thought it was interesting to note that Fishes has happened in this world, so we know how that went for Jon Bernthal's character from Mikey. Yeah. And Carmi. Carmi is now gone. Like, Fishes is the motivating event that sends Carmi off into the world. Of fine dining. Of fine dining and of, I'm not coming back to Chicago until, tragically, Mikey's passing. I want to say at the top that I also have a lot of thoughts about the delivery method of the episode, and we should kick that to the end of the conversation. We can do one or the other. I mean, for people who haven't seen it, we can talk about the phenomenon of doing a surprise drop. Like, this is an episode that is essentially, like, its own film. You know, it's like its own episode. You don't really need to know almost anything about the bear to watch it. It's a portrait of these two guys at different stages in their life. Yeah, and if you're a fan of certain types of, especially, like, 70s filmmaking, like these guys are, you will find something to recognize and maybe hang out with and enjoy. And we should mention that it was directed by Chris Stord, who directs much of the bear. He said it was written by Eben and Jon Bernthal, which, honestly, after watching it, I feel like maybe they wrote some outlines, and then they did a lot of hanging out, and then they wrote a little bit more, and then they hung out more. It felt very organic. Yeah, I think that there's a couple of beats that get hit. It's also worth noting that there is, you know, I'm always kind of, like, on pins and needles waiting to see, like, who is going to emerge as, like, a special guest star on a bear episode. Maren Ireland, who's one of my favorite actors, plays a woman named Sherry that Richie and Mikey meet in a Gary, Indiana dive bar there sent to Gary by Uncle Jimmy to do a delivery. I think both of them kind of think they're running drugs or doing something criminal, and it turns out not to be. But they spend the day getting hot dogs, playing hoops, doing coke, hanging out in a dive bar. This is all with Richie having the imaginary deadline or imposed deadline of, I got to be back at 5.15 back in Chicago, 30 miles away, because Tiff thinks she's going to die. She's going to go into labor at 5.15 p.m. Okay, so in terms of the delivery method, like, it is, I guess it's not the worst thing to do to remind people of a show coming back. A day after this debuted, FX announced that the fifth, and as we all expected, final season will be premiering June 25th, all episodes as they've done in the past. I find this show's relationship to its fans and to the audience, and to its medium, to be absolutely fascinating, if not borderline perplexing. It really does remind me more of the kind of let's run a race, but first let me tie my legs together attitude towards success that indie bands have had in our lifetime, or even that some restaurants have when people start lining up to take pictures of the food. The show is an absolute phenomenon and delivered just like breathlessly back to back. Two of the best seasons of TV of the century. And then it got bumpier and it got quiet. And that's not, and there is a like a meta level of conversation here that we should have, which is like, we love this show and we love covering the show. And a surprise drop makes it hard to cover the show. It's not about us, but that is sort of odd, A. But then B, it's not just that it's hard for us to cover. Like they dropped it on a, on a Tuesday in May and it's not categorized with The Bear. No. So to find it, you have to search Gary. And as with everything regarding The Bear the last two seasons, there has been as of this moment, Thursday, no press related to it whatsoever. I believe that they did some today or yesterday that will eventually get up, but yes. Right. So it is a weird thing for a show that, and look, we are not the audience police, but the show's relationship with its fans and I think the show's reception has been, has changed slightly over the last two years as the show has gotten more insular, more about itself. And also the conversation around it has been less forthcoming. Like we don't actually, you know, we spent a year and a half being like, it seems like this was supposed to be one season, but they split it. And we still say that because we actually don't know what their intentions were and they're quite opaque about that. Yeah, I mean. No one owes us anything, but it makes it hard to divine what the tea leaves are saying and what's going on. And that just continues with this, this sort of thing that I, I can't tell if this was released intentionally this way to just be chill about it. Like, hey, we made you another thing and this is all we do. We're just whipping up something back in the kitchen and we're excited to share it. Or if this was like FX being like, got them again, gonna drop, blow their minds with a surprise drop of the episode of the year. And then it's, is it crickets? I don't know, but it's a weird, it does feel like there's a disconnect between where the show is in the culture and what the show is doing at the moment. Yeah. That makes it hard to parse. I think the, the bear is certainly in the last two seasons and certainly as some of those episodes stretched longer and also honestly, as the bear as a show became so big after that second season, I found it purchase personally perplexing that they continued with the binge drop model. I suppose you could do and or style and put up three at a time. I suppose you could do boys style and do three and then one, one, one, or however you wanted to do it. But to me, something that was so painstakingly made. And honestly, so obviously like emotional and emotionally cathartic for the people who made it right. To have it go up and be like, have a nice weekend is strange. And yes, it does make it frustrating to cover because I would love to just be like once a week, we have like a really thoughtful conversation about the bear rather than, you know, trying to figure out where people are and they're watching. And that's, that's like a first world problem. Like I'm not really not that big of a deal. I am very into the idea of creatives having enough, freedom, energy, ideas, enthusiasm, creativity to say, let's dig a little deeper on something off off menu. It's honestly one of the most stimulating things that an artist can do for me is to be prolific in a really interesting and creative way. So to make stuff that maybe doesn't always fit into the same box over and over again, we'll probably chat about a little bit about it. And this is a little bit of an odd connection to me, but I went and saw Katie Crutchfield from Waxahachie last night with MJ Lenderman. She has done a Waxahachie record, a Plains record, a Snow Caps record with her sister, and is now doing this like small, well not small venue, but like quiet, like sit down at seated venues for this acoustic tour with MJ Lenderman. - And she's about to drop the collab of the year with Kevin Morby, a human baby. Congratulations to her. - But it's like, that's, three different like iterations of her creativity coming out and all kind of one after another. I think the first time I saw Lenderman live was opening for Plains like a couple of years ago. That's awesome. Like I think TV shows should feel free to do that. Like I wish more TV shows did do like Landry's first day at art school or like whatever from Friday Night Lights. I don't know if Landry didn't go to art school. - It wasn't Landry. - It was Saracen. - Yeah. - But do stuff like that. Like that's really cool. It would be kind of funny if they were just like, what's Matt Saracen doing now, 45 minutes? Like dropped on Peacock. - And he's just drafting. - Yeah. - Yeah, I think- - He's fucking dialing up middle of the field throws for Jalen Hurts. - He's literally the new- - He's John Mannion. - Listen, I have some John Mannion thoughts. I'm of two minds about this, and this is our way into, I guess, talking about the specifics of the episode. Like that interest, which is, like, you know, like, you know, which is really real, and I'm supportive of it, and I like the idea that they were like, let's get in after this, and also let Eben and John, because all good actors backfill their characters, whether it's their lives or just the moment before the camera starts rolling, that's part of a lot of actors' process, and they bring things to the table, and good directors and good writers listen to them and help try to craft a scaffolding for them to be able to work in. So the idea that Eben and John being close friends developed some sense of what that relationship was like off camera and wanted to put it on camera and play with it is incredibly cool. And it's cool to witness it and to see it it get the full force of Chris's direction and obviously the sound design and song music supervision and everything is awesome. That said, I am and this is something that's been a slight drag on my enjoyment of the bear as it's gone on. I am not really a huge fan of flashback storytelling where every important inflection point of a life can be neatly sketched out in 30 to 60 minutes that one's life really is a collection of one's life really is like a 10 track record with the 10 moments that swung everything one way or another. And so this was a full expression of that. And I think that in that expression, in 59 unexpected minutes, you had to my mind, the very best of the bear and the most frustrating of the bear all mix into one hour. What do they say about like TV? Movies is about the most important moment in a person's life and TV is about the most important arc of a person's life about the life is about the life. And I think that store and joy, a callow and the people who make the bear probably trying to split it a little bit where this is like you said, the most significant hits of car me and everybody's lives. But at the same time, we'll take take a moment to just do a reverie. Although I guess every time I think of like, an episode, I'm like, I bet that was very significant for that character's life. Like Sid going around Chicago. Yeah, to get inspiration for her recipes and seeing architecture and see, I mean, to be clear, having the runway of multiple episodes of a TV show doesn't mean that you can sit a couple plays out like every scene. This is this is something that's in writers rooms. Like, why are we doing the scene? What's the point of the scene that has to have some larger purpose other than being clever or cool? Because this is a narratively propulsive medium in a in a meta kind of parasocial way I enjoy the idea of the bear family like getting to make stuff about their own characters it's almost it would almost be fascinating if if Io got to do something like this if if a different if the facts of Matheson got to make something you know like we may get all that sure I mean a lot of those people have stepped up into more expansive roles on the show I was directing I mean I think that I think you're onto something when you point that out yeah and then as far as the episode Gary goes in particular obviously there are some moments at the very end that I think will have a huge impact on the next and final season but it was a really interesting example of like if Bernthal on this show starts out and you're like oh my god like this guy came off the bench and threw a hundred and two and struck out the side in fishes you know and then there are a couple of little flashes of him like of course in that first season like the the blast images of like his face um and he pops up here and there throughout the series now and to the point where he's not just like a ghost or a memory he is like almost a living breathing character I thought this rounded that character out more than I could possibly have imagined and I thought that I think if I can read you right the first half of this episode of them like saying fuck to each other and kind of banging heads was like a little raw and then the second half for me really came together when they get to the dive bar I felt like I thought it was incredible like that Marin Ireland is one of those performers who belongs in this family and in this world and I think that's a really good way to end the show it's hard not to think that because she's so she's known by people who watch tv and respect it but I think she's more celebrated as a stage actor and is a vital part of that community and so you almost wonder that this Eben and John doing this together while they were prepping for Broadway maybe they know her from that world bringing her into this world at this moment releasing this episode the day of the Tony nominations which didn't go the way those guys hoped but the show got a couple I think um technical categories I thought that was really appropriate and I thought that she was magnificent you know and it's a lot harder than I think one would realize to not just step into a well oiled family of a show and you know and fit in so well but to create an entire person with relatively meager pantry meaning you have to show up and most half of what you're saying intentionally is part of a game where you're lying and you also have to in the span in not just in the span of a few minutes but in the the the space of a toilet stall become the most important person who has ever spoken to the other character in the scene a person who we don't even know that well they were phenomenal together and I thought that that scene was really really special not just because of her performance but because it was really nice to see Bernthal turn it down you can't speaking about throwing gas like you can't be a successful full you can't be a successful starter in this league if you're just trying to blow past them every time they're going to figure it out you need to be able to throw some off-speed stuff and so much of his role on the show is a guest star is is like a late innings reliever he comes in and you know blows up the gun and everyone's excited yeah yeah exactly every part of that up until Bob Odenkirk I thought you were doing the baseball analogy still that's great so much of his performance performances and everything recently has been that including from what I gather a lot of what he's doing on Broadway so to see him drop the act drop the mask and be really sensitive was that was the highlight of the episode for me I think the other I think broadly there are moments to enjoy about their banter and there are moments to enjoy about like another overly intense catharsis spurred on by a not entirely fleshed out and temporary female character that like and then the volume of the episode is the volume of the hour-long very special episodes of the bear it's not fair to ask painters their style constantly but that those were volume and rhythmic beats that felt familiar do you mean like in the tradition of like Claire like somebody who's like I'm just gonna stand here while you have like a complete meltdown and then be like you're the best yeah I hear you I see you I also wondered and I think it's interesting because you talked about how um Mikey haunts the show like a ghost like maybe I am just prestige tv pilled but like post that episode of industry and also watching Widows Bay I was like I don't know Sherry's real yeah I I think the more probably appropriate way of looking at it rather than is Sherry like a fantasy because that would be a little bit of I mean I think that there's a there's a percentage chance that you're right right or that no I don't really believe that but the bigger theme is this idea of fact or fiction this is a game that they're playing in the dive bar where they're telling stories about their life and obviously like it's better if you're very specific and it's better and this is Mikey's a guy that Richie has told fact or fiction stories about or Mikey has told stories on the show where like you know you go out until 3 a.m and the Blackhawks are all there and it's kind of funny that Sherry originally thinks that he's on the Blackhawks because Richie has lied to her about it I never heard the term e-bug before that was cool yeah but uh it's kind of amazing when you know you think about this is going to be a story that Richie tells there's the what happens there which is Mikey essentially being like you're a fuck up you're not going to be a good father and you should just get in my car and drive and get the fuck out of here and yet Mikey is this guy that multiple characters on the show like swear fealty to and are like this guy saved my life this guy saw me and Bernthal does a couple of things in this episode where they very very specifically or Storer very specifically focuses in on Bernthal listening yes and for somebody who's I think his addiction and his mental illness the character's addiction and mental illness probably makes him incredibly difficult at times and incredibly charismatic at times it was really cool to see that other side of that which can be like radical empathy you know an incredibly locked in empathy and he does that in a very very convincing way I think you and I have both met people like that we've you know had experiences like that so it's weird it's like I just don't see a lot of other examples of human behavior being portrayed so honestly on TV I think that's a really good point to make and I also would say that you're very smart to point out like the fact or fiction isn't just a bar game because first of all if the bear just went on for 10 seasons hanging out in Midwestern dive bars like be a pretty good show yeah and it would be one that I would be interested in um seems like a really good time administration we're just talking about the bear it's like bringing back but also but also bring you back Gary you know the industry's coming back the idea of fact or fiction is being like the central theme of the bear which re isn't really about fine dining versus fast casual it is fundamentally about the power of story and legend to hold families hostage and hold them in place and the push-pull we have just built into our DNA of these are the people I have to love yeah these are the people I have to submit to I have to pick up the phone when they call I have to go back to them I am locked in this with them or you know Watchmen meme they're locked in here with me and at its best what the bear has done with flashbacks is highlight the inconsistencies and the despair and sadness at the root of what can become anecdotes yes and that is a really really compelling narrative idea and it's something that The Bear has done better than any other recent drama. Because I think when it's doing that, it's doing it in its guise as a drama. Yeah, I mean, sometimes the result doesn't always have to be intentional. Like, if you have somebody like Dee Dee in your family, if you have complicated relationships or people who are volcanic in the way that Mikey and Dee Dee are, it's not uncommon to be like, I have to re-contextualize what I've experienced and make it into something funny. Yeah, it's a defense mechanism. Or this hilarious night that this happened, and it's like, no, your mom drove a car through a living room and could have killed everybody. Like, that's crazy. Like, then you shouldn't have had to experience that. But it's like, that's also what happens in real life. I liked going back to the scenes. Thank you to the internet for pointing out the scenes where Richie has referenced Gary. Because I don't know when they shot this necessarily. But it was really cool to see the fact that there was a consistent tone from Bacharach's performance throughout this show of, like, there's, like, a real pain in the way he references this day. It's obviously something that really hurts him. And obviously the relationship with Tiff didn't work out. And I wonder if he's like, Mikey was always right about me in some ways. And it only gets to, like, forks where he starts to, like, reshape his life a little bit. Yeah, I mean, the beauty and power of the bear at its best, and I am excited for the final season, to see, you know, how they choose to land it. Having, again, we don't actually know what happened over the previous seasons, but they made another season. They did it willingly, and let's see what they did with it. But the idea that is essential to, I think, Chris Storer's worldview, which is that people, maybe it's only in fiction, but people can change. And people can throw off the yoke of expectations or the version of who they used to be. And sometimes you do have to fake it till you make it. You do have to become a suit guy to do it. You do have to lose yourself in, in tweezers and precision. Call back to what we were saying about the Tony trailer. Yeah. About what happened to that real-life person now being fictionalized. It was also interesting what you were saying about humor as the defense mechanism, because that's an interesting way to frame the show's persistent miscategorization. That it presents as a comedy, like many of us do. And it's actually. It's like imagining Hannah Einbinder watching last night. Just be like, I haven't laughed once! I think I saw some of the Hacks crew at Madison Square Garden last night. Did you? Yeah. They were on the wrong side of history. Actually, the right side of history, but the wrong side of justice. Were they on the right side of comedy, though? Well, I guess they have the last laugh. I have, just to wrap up the Gary part, the last moments. Okay, so, spoiler, if you have not watched this episode, you may want to check it out before I get to this part. You've been warned. Yeah. The last image of the episode is. This is Richie sitting in his car. We are. This is his, you know, more responsible Japanese vehicle that he has now. The one that he listens to Taylor Swift in. The implication being this is shortly after, I imagine, the episode Goodbye in season four, where Carmi quits, gives the restaurant to sit in Richie. Richie's sitting in the rain in his car. He's thinking about Mikey. We are led to believe that, like, this entire reverie has been taking place at a stop sign, more or less. Um, someone hogs for him to move. He goes, and he gets T-boned by another vehicle. Um, this is interesting because we. I did not anticipate this. You did not expect such clear connective tissue from season four into the upcoming season five. And I didn't expect there to be, like, a. a tragic event. I mean, we don't know how bad this is or what state Richie's gonna be in. To me, my immediate narrative brain, went to, well, this keeps Carmi attached to the bear. Sure. Um, maybe Carmi now has to be front of house. Like, I don't know. Yeah. But, uh, it's a very interesting game because I kind of, when you. when the season ended, but they were like, the bear will return. Yes. I was like, I wonder if this is gonna be, like, Io's show now. Yes. And Jeremy Allen White will appear, like, four times. Or three times. Yeah. Um, but I didn't know what narrative reason there would be to do it again. Well, the poster for season five is Jeremy Allen White. Well, it's Jeremy Allen White looming over like a force ghost. Yes. But he's not the one in the car. So, this would certainly give Jeremy Allen. this would give Carmi a reason to stay in Chicago, stay attached to the bear. Yeah. Care for Richie, become, like, a kind of paternal figure or patriarch of this real Bersato family, but also, like, the found family of the restaurant. That's my. that was my read on it. Assuming Richie is not dead, you know, which I hope he's not. I am. I just admit it. Like, I am. I have no idea. That's okay. And I have no idea what even what my feelings are as we're talking about it. I think that I had such a strange. Season four left me with such strange feelings about, like, I was preparing for it to be over and then it's not over. And I don't know what. I don't know how much more you can wring out the same towel. Well, it's a much larger conversation that I think we'll probably have when the show comes back about. that I think we scratched a little bit of the surface of is how much do you need a show to give you its intention up front? Like, how much do you need it to be like, this is in fact not the final season and as you start the fourth season, you know, guys, don't worry, it's not the last year. Well, here's. here's our opportunity to segue into Widow's Bay and. which is. it's a very. not contemporary, but like the last few years problem or opportunity. How situational shows navigate the business of longevity, of delivering in the moment versus playing the long game that gets you clicking next, next, next that gets you optimized for streaming algorithms? Yeah. Which I don't think is what Chris is doing and I don't think it's necessarily what Katie Dippel is doing with Widow's Bay, but it is part of how TV is made now and, you know, I always point to something like Parks and Rec being quite good at that, that there was an immediate episodic story and then there was an overstory that would shift. It's tough. I don't know if there's one good. way of. Gray roots entering the chat? Uninvited? Garnier's got you. Garnier Color Sensation Root Retouch covers up to 100% of grays in just 10 minutes. No ammonia, no mess, and the color lasts up to four weeks. It's as easy to apply as shampoo. Plus, it's vegan and cruelty-free. 10 minutes. Sensational color, sensational price. With those savings, your next girls' night is basically free. Find your perfect match at walmart.com or at a store near you. Chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox. Onabotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis, or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX. to learn more. Doing it. Briefly, when we talked about the first two episodes of Widow's Bay, I offhandedly mentioned The X-Files as a reference point. And this felt in a glorious way. Like, you could do 100 episodes of this show if this is how they're going to structure it and this is how they're going to do it. Or, first of all, I love it. I love this show. We'll talk about it. But, in this, I don't think this is, I'm glad I have the chance to come at it this way because this is not concern trolling, but I did note with some interest that, well, the first two episodes did a very smart job of moving the ball forward but then quiet resetting. Like, everything is haunted. We can't have the tourists come. Oh, it's okay. It's fine. The tourists are coming. This episode moved things forward to a sense that Tom kind of no longer can pretend he doesn't believe, A. And B, he and Wick are now, they're not going to be on the same page forever. But they, they both now are no, there's no longer one, one's skeptical and one's a true believer. Exactly. They both are like, something fucked up is happening on this island. Which, again, they knew the show they were making when they pitched it and they produced it. So this is not me, you know, trying to concern troll what they did. But I was surprised at the harder turn into there is a season arc happening here of what's going on with this island. I thought, I did not think that would have come so quickly. And I'm curious and frankly, because I trust the people so much, excited to see how they resolve it. while assuming i don't think anything's been announced yet but i i would assume that there will be a season two i assume so as well there is so this episode is essentially about um you know it's the first day of summer the tourists have shown up um it's a big hit with um the new york times article claiming it could be the next martha's vineyard and uh tom as mayor is supposed to do a ceremonial like first swim in the ocean to show everybody that the water is okay um the night before he is considering like reopening his heart you know and getting involved in romance again for the i'd seemingly like the first time i doubt it because that would be like 15 16 years yeah but clearly not a frequent dater no um small dating pool on the small dating pool and a woman not mysterious but like very specific woman uh who's part of a bachelor's rep party or so she says so she says is like wandering around the island tom gives her a ride they meet up again to chat he winds up opening up to her about how his wife dialed during child died during childbirth of his son and that they've just been basically together since then like they're supposed to meet at a bar at some point she never shows up so he's like driving home and he comes across an old woman who uh he offers to give a ride but she scratches him on his arm thus starting the legend of the sea hag which is basically a gross old witch from the ocean who zeroes in on one target by getting his scent and his skin underneath her nails and then wick says that she will get into his house and he will become lethargic and then she will sit on his face and kill him yes he sings it so it sounds better than when i just yeah um and then eventually wick has to come to his rescue but it is something that like you know we can't we don't nobody else can see the sea hag except for tom um and really except for wick and tom right well we don't know because no i guess that's true no one was able to see the sea hag was there right no one saw it in the ocean during the swim but also because the show is clever like this it's dovetailed with the the relationship with the woman visiting the island yes marissa by elizabeth alder for who another one of these like she's on ap bio she's kind of like great great casting she was great i i was glad that the show didn't go back to the same well where there is a mysterious stranger that tom opens up to who actually doesn't exist the show intentionally did the opposite of what it had done with tim balls the week before as the clown yes where he says i know what you are get away from my door and we do get the shot of her going back into the taxi with the other bachelorette at the party saying that was humiliating yeah so it it walks a fine line successfully i did say this to you on the phone that because uh i i took a chance because of the comedy part of the show and i was my younger daughter was on the couch with me i did fire up the beginning of the show how'd that go and it was fine she was she was drawing on her like comic book drawing app and and she was she was okay with it and i was like i i think it might be a little scary but it's not it's not that scary and she was fine with it and she was laughing about it and then at one point early in the episode she quickly got up and washed her arm and then came back and then went and did it again and i was like is something going on and she's like well you know the cat scratched me and so you know sea eggs i was like we're turning this off so i did not finish what did you turn on uh i turned on uh another nightmarish vision which is other teams in the playoffs other than our own oh in the nba or yeah i think i turned okay got a little wendy going yeah i got a little wendy going this show is awesome i i think like in some ways it's almost helpful to have a batch of episodes to discuss but was there anything else from this specific one that you wanted to highlight i just thought it was interesting watching the show settle into itself and so there is now like like the church bells subplot the reverend is that's cooking yes um i really like the way the show is confounding me with its commitment to all of the bits meaning it's not getting cute with the haunting it is also a horror show it is just full speed doing both still which i think is really challenging we could throw after dark on for top chef i think because it's like a sure brief enough conversation yeah we got to do a power round here because you got to get to the airport lawrence won this previous episode which is not restaurant wars but kind of you know and like it's a it's a large-scale dinner party that they have to serve immediately coming out of restaurant wars right um they're like signing up for things as they are waiting for rhoda to come back for last chance kitchen rhoda gets kind of the worst end of the stick here uh-huh um this was an interesting example of the show emphasizing uh a rule and some parameters of the competition and then the judges disregarding that when it came to judging or judging the show so i think it's a really interesting show and i think it's a really interesting show and i think it's a really interesting show and i think it's a really interesting show and i think it's a really interesting show and i think it's a really interesting show or evaluating speak on it they were given i can't remember the specific like it was twelve hundred dollars for the entirety of the remaining chefs to go cook past apps and a main or some part of a menu a full yeah it was a significant amount of food and they were allowed to go to whole foods with twelve hundred dollars and they had to like each spend 150 and each one of these people makes a compromise um anthony instead of getting king crab gets dungeonous and not even that much oscar uh who winds up going home gets a much short rib but has to like be like i'm gonna need to get this down to like the bone because i don't have i should have like another half of amount of short rib here um and then he makes a fatal decision being like i need to fill out my plate with starch rhoda who is back from last chance kitchen is given dessert which nobody wants and she doesn't want and is kind of put an asterisk in that shy and retiring about what she needs to uh you know i thought i i want to ask you whether you thought there was some gamesmanship on sherry's part when it came to the sharing of eggs no okay i think this i think the one hallmark of the season is that everybody's pals sure that's fine yeah i think i think there's two major problems coming out of this episode i think the one you're pointing to is really important which is you can't give them a draconian budget and then complain about what you get on the plate yes like they're all sitting all the judges are sitting there and they're all like i don't know i don't know i don't they're hot dog suits being like we're all trying to figure out the ones who did this yeah i thought it was and this was also among the more like because they judge them at the table yeah so when they serve the food the entire table of people are giving notes on what they're eating yeah um tom seemed to be in a terrible mood yeah uh and i thought they were getting irate about certain things like there's just one little bit of crab here i'm like crab costs money yeah you know like i don't know what you want it's weird because the relative poverty of the show in general is getting more and more apparent you know that they got i think it was reported they got like they get a million bucks from the carolinas tourism board to film there and in return carolinas get a bunch of episodes indoors celebrating duke's mayonnaise like this there is no question that post world all-stars this show's budget has been slashed considerably and it is doing a great job i still think editorially and like in terms of the kind of the show they're doing a great job they've never been better at cultivating points of view and chefs and also relationships from the judging panel now it's been great but don't pretend you're still in the luxury fine dining space because you're not and then when you do things like that like say we're going to challenge them by giving them even less money to cook indoors for the third straight week it's like you're kind of telling on yourself in a way that you might not want to yes but the biggest problem of the episode for me was the fucking cooked gamesmanship of the whole thing i don't necessarily blame the show for it i don't blame the show for it i don't blame the show for it i don't blame them for absolutely sending oscar home uh instead of rhoda because rhoda had just gotten back but rhoda fucked up now was it her fault they set her up to fail by coming out of the last chance kitchen and setting up a challenge where she would be almost guaranteed to be walking into a dessert yes that felt if other seasons have um overly privileged those coming out of last chance kitchen because they it's like they're shot out of a cannon yeah they're like i have so exactly so maybe the thought was direct feedback for maybe yeah maybe the thought was you you are still at a disadvantage because you were eliminated from this competition but then if that's the case have the courage of your convictions because this was this more so than tom being like despite the dining ring ring mold on my plate i still think nana's food was good this felt like the one of the most egregious decisions ever i don't think tom was wrong to be like he served meat with rice next to a rice dish like that was really dumb it's funny though because that was another note that they gave where they were like this is a complimentary tasting menu that should complement each other you know and they had done the same thing about the canopies where they were like don't all of you make fucking shrimp toast you know what i mean like don't everybody make the same thing but i didn't feel like that note was so strong that like it was insane for oscar to do that like i didn't feel like they were like if you put rice on your dish you're going home well if you serve it next to rice i think that was i think if that had been a mind-blowing dish he probably would have won um but i did i don't remember last chance kitchen being such a planned tournament team in previous seasons and i don't if i was rhoda i'd be like what's going on like i didn't get seeker that day when like i just cooked again against two nana and britney i think right and then i beat brandon or jonathan i can't remember which one was it i don't know i don't know brandon i come in very late after they've all gotten decide what they're not only what kind of thing they're going to make but like the specific thing they're going to make. And then I'm like, I guess I'm going to make a meringue, you know? And then I'm going to do a terrible job at it for four hours. I think that's the thing that was so galling. It's not like she got boned by the eggs. She made a bad meringue, needed to remake it because she didn't add sugar to it for four hours. Yeah, I don't. That was a terrible dish. And it didn't fulfill the function of the dessert in the menu. And they saved her. Now, is the show better heading into the finale with Rhoda who, prior to. Well, I don't know because Rhoda has won twice and failed twice. But being like top-bottom, obviously in LCK, she did very well. I don't know how much longer she will last. To me, the other thing that's sort of strange is the attention that I'm paying to the mess, the fuck-ups is way greater than the fact that Lawrence and Anthony are basically a two-horse race for this season. And I would be, frankly, shocked if Lawrence didn't win at this point. Yeah. Like, they just seem routinely blown away by what he makes. They don't seem routinely blown away. They seem routinely pleased. Okay. You know, I think it's just been an incredibly underwhelming performance from the contestants across the whole season. And I wonder if the lack of opportunity to challenge them in more overt or literally outdoor ways is affecting what I'm seeing. But sometimes, and I don't know if any of these people, if any of these people left would step up in this way. But one of the things that was always really cool about Top Chef was when circumstances got more extreme, some people would find a new gear. Mm-hmm. That they would be able to harvest the ingredient and then also get it done and then also in the circumstances. Well, I will say in previous seasons, the one thing that you really haven't heard this season is, like, the judges imploring the chefs to, like, cook their food, to express themselves, to take it to the next level. Like, it feels like they're kind of like, can you guys get food? Can you guys get food on the plate in time? And follow instructions. And in a time when 80% of all challenges are inside the studio and Last Chance Kitchen is in the studio and they're just pulling from a pantry or going to Whole Foods and cooking, like, they're kind of all the same challenge. Yeah. One has mayonnaise and one doesn't. One is cooking a restaurant meal as an active restaurant and one is cooking a coursed meal doing one course. Look, who among us hasn't had to stretch a few ingredients to make a meal last? Yeah. Or make a budget last for a meal? for the week. But you are feeling that in the show in a way that is disappointing because, I'll just repeat myself, like, editorially and, like, in terms of, like, the hosts and the judging, it's as good as it's ever been. I agree. I mean, I still, I will watch it every week right into the second Ossoff administration, you know? I think that's beautiful. Are they back-to-back administrations or is there going to be, like, a brief interregnum for, you know, like a Kristi Noem era? Oh, that would be cool. I can't wait to see. I think what I like in governance is the same thing that I like in, like, an Uber driver, which is wild swings from left to right constantly. Hey, as long as you make it to your destination. Let's wrap it up there. On Monday, we will be together but remote. So I will be calling in Landline's Cousin Sal 2009 style. No, we'll do Euphoria and some other stuff on Monday and then just Andy on Thursday. It should be very exciting. I'm glad you keep reminding me Yeah. on camera because I would say that my planning We're not going to actually be together for a while. So you're doing Thursday on your own and then I do all of next week on my own. Do you guys have enough material after, what's the word, 14 years to just make, like, a soundboard? I got to get on a plane. We can make an AI generated version of you. That's awesome. That's awesome. AI Andy coming at you with me. I'd be like, what? I'm offended by that. You can just sort of hit it like an NPC. Not for me, but I'll tell you what. See you guys later. Mr. Monopoly here. Miss me? Monopoly is back at McDonald's with millions of prizes. A 2027 cheap charity. A carnival cruise vacation. Gift cards from DoorDash and Best Buy. Peel then play in the McDonald's app. Get your bag. No purchase necessary. 50 US and DC age 18 plus. See play at McD.com. For rules and play at McD.com slash AMOE for info and playing without purchase by mail by November 2nd. Chance card game ends November 8th. Game ends November 22nd, 2026. See rules for prize details. Monopoly is a registered trademark of Hasbro. Introducing Pandora's Holiday Collection. This season, celebrate the ones you know by heart with a gift that says it all. From engravable pieces to festive charms to lab-grown diamonds, Pandora's jewelry is made for the ones who inspire you, who've been there through it all. Give a piece that says exactly what words can't. Pandora. More than a gift. Shop new styles in-store or online at Pandora.net.