‘The Bear’ Clocks Out. Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 2 and ‘Star City’ Episode 6.

I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ranger.com and joining me in the studio ready to celebrate 250 more its end degree walls. 250 more episodes of the Bear Season 5. It's great to see you. I am excited for this dialogue that we're going to have today on the watch podcast, which you can email at [email protected]. You can follow us on Instagram at the watch pod underscore. And you can watch us on YouTube at ringer-tv where we share space with the prestige TV podcast. And you can also watch us on Spotify where I hope you listen to your space. We hold space. We hold space for Joe and Rob. It's really great. It's great to have Kaia back. We have a full house today in a full show. You have a lot of expectations for today, I think. And here's the laundry list, the to-do list, opening banter so far, crushing it. We may do dragon. I mean, we. I've discussed a little bit. I have some questions. Dragon bear and star city. How about that? Yeah. I mean, those are the things I watched. Yeah. You also watched some other stuff. You had a robust cultural weekend. I did. There was a lot. I mean, that was a lot of television, man. I still. I still got it. You know. Can I tell you something? Yeah. The industry is, it's not the industry. The agency, straight bangers and mash, just talking into it. How far did you go? I'm up for now. Okay. It's just good as shit, man. The bureau, that was a good story. I know. They really knew what they were doing. They just say it in English. It's awesome. So much easier. Can I give you just a little glimpse into my headspace before we get started? I'd like nothing more. I mean, this podcast is essentially built around that. Well, so I don't know if this has ever happened to you and I don't know what this means specifically. But I was, you know, I was line of stuff. I mean, really, this morning was devoted to a very important task, which is collating our various songs for our much anticipated annual barbecue playlist, which definitely will now soundtrack one of the weirdest barbecues of all time. So that's not out yet. We will release that via our Instagram. Because of the music or because of the nature of the country. No, because of the, because of the interesting collision between where our personal muses have led us recently. I can only do so much, Andy. And last year, I had a lot of aggressive music and you said that I would have ruined anyone's barbecues. So I tried to make it soft and NPR friendly for you. Ruined is not the word. Also soft does usually not involve ice age and Salem, but okay, to each his own. That's not my issue. My issue was I spent a, you know, my head was really in that game this morning and I was trying to collate my thoughts about all the various television we were going to discuss today. I was really excited just kind of check out the AQI down here in Los Angeles. Oh, yeah, right. And was actually raining or is this God crying on the bottom of the city or did they shoot the hoses so high that it's only now. It's like, yeah. So all of those things were happening and you know, also it's Monday morning, I was boiling up some eggs, you know, and then was distracted briefly by some London communication on the WhatsApp app. And I was like, hmm, should probably lift the toaster because it seems like I'm really overdue in these English muffins. Shout out to nooks and crannies, our former sponsor. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, scrambled some eggs. No, boiling eggs mixed in English muffin. Okay. Well, here's a thing, Chris. There was no English muffin. It was actually a kitchen towel that was fully aflame in my, I had set fire to a kitchen towel. Like by putting it on the toaster? No, no, the toaster wasn't involved. Yeah. You with, you with me? Yeah. I had lifted the lid of the pot with a kitchen towel because it was hot, placed it. What I believed to be a reasonable distance from the pot. I see. And then just fired up some messaging and then just was kind of like vibing with the smell of Los Angeles inside of my kitchen. Maybe that was, maybe the real issue is we are so desensitized. Yeah, it is. It is probably at this point you could just like all I do in my, in my house now is burn foam. Yeah. Exactly. So I immediately took an N95 mask and put it on the cat and then I drove in to see you. So I'm sure that is, are we okay at your house like the embers are out? You know me very well. I doused that towel so intensely in the sink. There was no more flame. Good. And before I left, I then disposed of the towel. And yet just now on the five freeway, sorry, no free ads on a freeway. I, that's like the World Cup stadium on Los Angeles Los Angeles, Los Angeles road. I was on Los Angeles freeway. And my thoughts are so, I am not this creative in my script writing as I am when anxious and driving to work because I imagine that one little smoldering ember was still inside of the towel and was now spreading to whatever no doubt highly flammable substance was in my trash can. Your collaborative and chilies would have you know those, those are where they belong. I sent a, it's coming home Chris when it comes to the chilies. So that's where that's where I am today. You are worried that your house is engulfed in flames or maybe it's a fresh start. Okay. Uh, where would you like to start today? I mean, would you like to start with one of the three shows? Do you want to tell me a little bit about your cultural weekend? Would you like to save that for after dark? Well, by the way, also, you know, we didn't maybe we were waiting for Kaya or maybe now we're afraid to do it in front of Kaya, but we didn't do after dark last Thursday where we were going to discuss the wedding of the century of New York City with socialism or, oh, Taylor, right, because we did talk about DSA last week, uh, I don't want to lead with Taylor. No, I don't either. I'm saying so that's probably our after dark sorted. Yes. Well, I mean, this is why we don't have a show on Thursday. We have somewhere to be. You're just telling people now. Wow. Okay. Um, let's start with house of the dragon. Yeah. You know, it just said at the beginning, you went and saw the invite. It's only in seven theaters. Oh, we wanted to begin it. Sure. Cause it's only in seven theaters. And I think it's worth it. Andy's movie corner is always a delight. So you, you give it a shout out. I, I mean, what a great movie. Yeah. It'll be rolling out. I think over the next two weeks, I had a very unexpectedly spontaneous Los Angeles experience where I didn't know the movie was out. I then saw that it was, it's, it's playing only in theaters that can play it in the 35 kilometer projection film format. So it's here at the vista and it's probably in a couple other cities. And I just, there I was, just a young, nope, just a man without a calling. And I, I went into the theater. I saw a movie I knew very little about. I think it's phenomenal. Yeah. I loved it. And then Hollywood, baby, as soon as it was over, Olivia Wilde and Seth Rogan appear to be interviewed by someone who's coming for your crown, Sinalythin. Letter. I would, I would love nothing more than to, to, to do battle with Sinalythin and America's host. I do want to talk about the movie. But and I do, I think she's a wonderful actor and I really like her. But I, I did feel a little bit like you don't see us auditioning for Love and Basketball. Do you know what I mean? Like there is a reason why it's generally you or Sean on a director's chair at the front of these things. Because you usually don't begin your Q&A's by being like, man, whoa, am I right? Wow. Maybe we should. Honestly, that would probably translate better. Anyway, I, I just couldn't believe that we can still make funny, engaging, emotional adult movies. I think it's a phenomenal movie. It's a great movie. Anybody listening to this should see it. There's a big picture episode in the can coming soon. I don't know exactly when Sean's playing a little flat, fast and loose with the schedule right now, but we did a, to the pot about it and I, I love that movie. That's why you're saving your takes. Look at you. It's not really saving my takes. It's just like 150 people got to see the movie. I don't want to spoil. It's just us here. You can, just us gals. You can leak a little something. Sean's not listening. Sean can't hurt you here. He does listen. I know. Yeah. And then he stops when we start talking about TV shows, which we're going to do now. Come on. Let's talk about House of the Dragon. I thought that one way to look at this episode, which I talked about with Malinjo in depth and I'm happy to answer any questions because now I am the lore master on the show. How? Okay. How is Mal doing? Fine. Good. Oh, because of anything in particular from this episode. No. You said you could answer questions. Oh, yeah. She's doing great. Right. Spoilers for the second episode of House of the Dragon season three, which in some kind of calculus could be viewed as the actual season finale for season two. So I saw a much debate about this online about whether or not like the first episode would serve as a better finale or the second episode. I think that in a way, we arrive at a very good stopping point for a certain story in that Ranera is now back on the Iron Throne. But just in general, like I wanted to do a little gut check for you because I have given, I have created a permission structure for you. Thank you. We don't have to talk about this every week and that you don't, you shouldn't feel like you're in George R.R. Martin Memorial State Penitentiary with me. What do you, what do you think of the episode? First of all, I watched too much television this weekend because my first reaction was, it was a hideous end to the chief designer. Like I know that what's going on with the Soviet space program is a little, a little fast in this with security protocols. It is pretty fun that they were like, can we get Reese for two days? Cause Reese Evans is currently one of the stars of Star City. Well, he's free for future seasons of Star City. Let's put it that way. He's not going to be called back to you, West Rose anytime soon. I have to say that the auto-high tower ending on this episode. where he was two times, we had to basically, we never had to take two swings at the-- - I believe Tanyada. - He's called a two-pump jump, I believe that's what that means. No? - Wouldn't she be the two-pump jump in this case? - I wouldn't comment. - That would be like one of my, that's a new fear unlocked, is that I was gonna be beheaded, but the first one missed. - You've never had this fear before? - No. - You haven't, clearly we had different middle and high school reading lists, because I do remember quite a lot of historical textbooks discussing how the guillotine and wasn't always the model of efficiency that we believe it today. - Oh, you said the time it works 50% of the time. - That's exactly right, that's exactly right. That's rough stuff. - So that was terrifying, but I thought, I thought a useful way to look at this show increasingly, and maybe this is, you could say this is Cope, you could say this is me trying to create like a language to talk about the show, but I think the more you look at it as this kind of maximalist opera, it kind of works better. - Explain. - Well, because the people talking in rooms, broken characters trying to put together a broken world of Game of Thrones, the humor of Night of the Seven Kingdoms, like I think those are more approachable. And Game of Thrones, the reason why it was such a huge gateway for so many people was that those characters were not altogether different than ones you would see on sopranos or other television at the time, they were wearing capes, they had shields, but they were fathers and sons and daughters and brothers and sisters, you know? - And dragons, eventually. - Eventually, but I think that they backloaded all that stuff and they backloaded a lot of the hard fantasy stuff that is in that text and led with-- - Of course, yeah. - Yeah, right. - And, you know, I think House of the Dragon, every show probably is served well by this, where you can kind of figure out like, what's the way to watch this and how should I be, which we should I lean when I'm like leaning it? You know, like if I'm enjoying the show, what is the best way to sort of like interpret it? And I do think seeing this as an almost like heightened kind of over dramatic in a good way, show helps my enjoyment of it. - I find that interesting and I find that compelling. I think when you were saying that you were monitoring the debate about like where the season two ought to have ended or could have ended, is it generally understood? Like what is the, in terms of the people who are really invested in the show, which clearly I am not, but like is there a feeling of disappointment about what the second season was? - Yes. - Is there, okay. - Yes. - All right. - Almost universal. - Fair. - Yeah. - I, this America can agree on. - That's really nice. - That was in a abrupt season finale. - It sure was. And look, I think there's the type of criticism that we can do that when we talk about shows that we're struggling with or that we're having mixed reactions to that can be categorized as constructive. There's the type of criticism that we do that is ultimately kind of a dead end, which is the things that we wish it could be. I don't really have a lot of that for this show because it is so just committed to a, not being for me, which is fine, but I really do feel that it is entirely for people who are already within the coalition, let's say. So like Mal and Joanna, who I adore and when I hear you guys talk about the show or I hear them talk about the show, I'm always more interested in their perspective on it than I am on my own or even on the show itself because for example, when on the pod you did with them, Joanna was talking about the arrival of the Northman. - Yeah, that's nice. - And she was talking about who these people were, who they, what they represented within the world at this time, how exciting it was to see this on screen, how you could read so much into Damon's reaction because he knows the history of them. And I thought, well, how nice for them. Like when you drive past a Keen Siniera and downtown Pasadena, do you know what I mean? I'm like, this looks like a beautiful day. - Yeah. - I'm gonna continue driving now. I was not invited. That's pretty much how I feel about the show at this point. - Outside looking in. So that said, there are threads here that I do find compelling even within this episode. Like if you were to think about it in terms of the larger Westerosi project, kind of like the Heritage Foundation, it's been, they're finally getting what they want. Renera claiming the throne with tears and snot running down her face after this nightmare of a day is, that's interesting, that's compelling, that's different than what we've seen. But the biggest, I mean, the biggest note that I took was the scene when prior to flying to King's Landing. And I'm gonna need your help explaining why they couldn't have just done this at any point or they just afraid of the one really big dragon. - Big archive. - But she has, again, not unreasonably taken to her bed because her son is dead. And Damon comes over and starts just riffin. I mean, he just starts talking, he basically starts talking to her about prophecies, the way we would talk about spy novels and bars in the early 2000s. - Yeah. - You know. - Like no, you don't know what Len Dying did in the third trilogy. He's talking about the song of Ice and Fire and the prophecy and he's basically saying, if all of this is true, that there's going to be someone who we know is Daenerys, who takes over the world eventually. Then you gotta get up, you gotta get back up and you gotta get on your dragon and fly because of the story we have to fulfill. And I'm sitting here being like, this must be how the people locked in a room in Watford field when they're writing the show. And they're like, we gotta make the fucking story donuts because this is all fate. There is no emotional reason to do it. He's saying, go do all this so Daenerys can happen. Now, not only did we know Daenerys happened because we watch Game of Thrones, we also watch the last season of Game of Thrones and it didn't work out great. - Mm-hmm. - So I wish that there was a, I wish in that moment of low emotion or real emotion that the reason for doing things was more tangible than, there's a really good story I heard that many people enjoyed on HBO. - I think if you connect what he's saying, it's a very wise way of looking at things that I think it presents a storytelling problem but not a character problem. And I think one of the things that's been cool about this, first of all, I think I'm a Daenerys doing a wonderful job this season. - I agree with that. Very, in a very different type of performance. - That was what I was talking about the operatic part. Her sitting down in the reflection, Claire Kylner directed this episode. I think she does a wonderful job at the show and the reflection in the blood of her taking the throne, her kind of looking both like a child but also a broken man like her father, like in the throne, I thought it was great, Allison showing up, it's very like, it's like Verity. It's like, the person comes and sees their father killed right at the last second. But I think that the interesting moral problem or not even moral, but like the problem-solving problem that it presented that character is, you are incredibly important both as a war fighter 'cause you have a dragon. But also you are as central as a figurehead. So if you are the thing that this guy saw in his vision, you actually can't do shit because we have to wrap you in bubble wrap. And that's why she can't go fight Amen. This is my interpretation of it. - This is also why Joelle and Pete can't do back-to-backs. - Well, the princess, the princess who was promised. It was like the idea that the reason why Jace, while a bit dumb was right, was that she probably would have caught some harpoons out there in the first episode of the season. And if she goes down, this whole thing goes down. Because this isn't based on a political coalition or an alliance of families of like, you know what, this guy really has a lot of good ideas about how to run Westeros. This is a bunch of people have agreed on a myth or an idea or a dream or whatever. - And a figurehead. - Yeah. And so it's gotta be her. - They've gotten really good at doing the action stuff. They've gotten really good at making the dragons look good. But again, I think the thing that I just find unsatisfying and makes me think that ultimately this show is the Westerosy version of, I mean, I think you fed me this. I think you were right of like a Rings of Power type show, which is like, or a Star Trek, whatever the current show is on Paramount where it's like, if you love this stuff, you're going to find a lot to like here and it might be a different storytelling. But for me, all of the interesting emotional storytelling is in parentheses between what is now endless scenes of overpowered video game heroes slicing through red shirts. There's just so much, oh, here we are. Let me stab eight people through the throat. There's only Chris, I know you were surprised by what happened to Otto, but in my experience, there are limited ways to open up arterial length. - Sure. - There's just, aren't so many. You know what I mean? Maybe there's some-- - Should we do a top five throat slashings in TV history right now? I mean, box cutters gotta be number one from Breaking Bad. - Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, they're all good. (laughing) You know, we live in a golden age. But, but you don't even mean it. - The reason I was thinking of that was when you were talking about the important, the bubble wrap nature of Reneira, but it's also just weird to me, but necessary for storytelling, that Reneira and Damon, who are, sensibly, the soon-to-be, incestuous king and queen of this reunited realm, they're writing to King's Landing on the back of their nuclear bombs, like Doctor's Strangelove, and then they get off the bombs, and they're like, "Now, we'll just step "to a little bit of stabbing." Oops, we got cornered. That seemed foolish until it all worked out. - Yeah, Joe pointed out something similar, so I was glad to know that that wasn't just like, our casual eye being like, "Why did they do that?" But I guess, ultimately, that's why Alice and had sort of gotten the gold cloaks, Damon's old crew on sides. I think a good illustration of what you're talking about in that I think it's a well-done, well-acted scene, but there is a scene in between Damon leaving his army and getting back to Reneira, where he meets Alice Rivers, who is the witch who. - Is that Gail Rankin? - And that's Gail Rankin, and that's the witch who roles. - I like this part. - Shotgun with him. - Through the weirwood team in the tree in her. - And that was probably the most emblematic of like, did you guys mis-chedule this shoot? How did this wind up that you have the most, one of the most dynamic characters on this show is kind of in isolation. - Were you talking about the tree? - No, that's myth. And so Matt Smith and Gail Rankin are wonderful performers, and here's Alice, a mysterious woman, with deep ties to Heron Hall in some way. And Damon, who is, you know, dedicated to Reneira. But she may not be end-game for him, she may not be his one and only. - Oh, you think he has some other nieces? - No, I just mean like he's married before. You know, like he obviously has a connection with Alice. - Yeah. - That's a very, I think, significant scene in the larger narrative tapestry of this show. I think that will be a turning point. Did you read it as such or were you like, this is another, like, room tone to people talking about what they did and what they're going to do kind of moment? - I feel the way I felt from the beginning with the show, which is probably listening to me is diminishing returns. I cannot for the life of me see where the story is coming from. And what I mean by that is like, looking at the fuel reserves of what we have to tell, where, what's powering another season and a half, right? I think they said that it was going to be four seasons of story here. Partly because giant ass dragons aside, the relative randomness to the casual of when they can and can't do things, like everyone was so paralyzed for so many episodes of the show last season. And then they just flew in and took the throne. And now she's there. - Once Damon was reared out to go to Harinhal, yeah. - But I, that the amount. - He finds a new GF. - But in order. Oh, that's right. Do you think he's going to be okay? - Damon fine, but he's got. - He's got a little. - But he has a new, new, new agent in Alice. - You got stuck a little bit in the back there. - I think he'll, he'll make it. - I was glad to see a Targaryen actually get stabbed. - Yeah. - Well, I can't believe I just said that. Well, you got me just so I think I'm out. But I thought that was nice. I just mean that like, we began at the, we began, remember when the, remember when the battlefield in the show was the womb, we began with them as children, just to get to a point where one of their children was distracted so they could go back. Like that is a, that is a lot of television made out of what feels like not a lot of real estate. - Sometimes I think it's, it feels and play is a little bit like the way it feels to read nonfiction. Where you're like, you're reading, like I was reading like the Rick Ackinson invasion trilogy. It was like Africa, Italy and D-Day. And like, I love them. But there's 15 pages of, and then the men packed the socks. And then the men packed 80,000 cans of tuna. And the men packed underwear. And the men, - This is the part I'd like. - But that's a lot like your, and you're kind of like, ah, yes, a storyteller might be like everything they needed, they packed away. - Right, it's a history now. - You know what I mean? And I think there is a dedication, perhaps an over, in the beginning, ironically enough since George R. Martin and Ryan Connell had this sort of schism. There was in the beginning maybe an overdeference to showing every step of the way. - Totally. - And no more so, or never more so, than when they did a four episode preamble of these girls' teens. - Yep. - Because, well, for whatever reason, but they obviously didn't want to just be like, here's grown up Allison and grown up Ranera in their last moment of peace. And now they're gonna split. - I think it's, look, it is interesting from a perspective of someone who is a fan of the industry and a, I mean, we watch it. Like, to see a show. Just, no, I'm serious. - Link didn't, just a fan of the industry, man. - Well, that's 'cause I'm just, that's just glazing Mickey and Conrad again. Can't help it. I, no, but like, who are some of your favorite guys in the industry right now? - Oh my God. - Josh Demarro. - Josh Demarro is killing it right now. What about, what about a gunner? You know, no one talks about gunner anymore. Now the Paramount's buying Warner Brothers, but for a minute, Gunner was king. He was gonna have his own little fiefdom of networks then Ellison came over the top. I don't think we've heard the last of him. He's gonna take Heron Hall. I think, I do find it interesting when shows because of their, whether it's because they're actual like quantitative success or the, you know, the necessity of the project for the bottom line of the corporation or whatever, to keep going as it fixes itself and rewrites itself and redirects itself. And I think that you couldn't get anyone on the record to say this, but if you, it would be fascinating at some point to read a post-mortem of the show with Ryan Condole or with George Martin or both of them ideally or with other people in the room talking about how they, how the goals changed and what mistakes they feel were made to get to this point. I don't mean to be like walking back or being overly negative about what I said last week, which was in episode like the Battle of the Gullet episode is in many ways, I think the best case scenario for what this show is. I'm not trying to wish it to be something else. No, but to bring it full circle to answer your question, I enjoyed the scene you're talking about because I think that Gail Rankin's slight playful smirk on her witchy face is the closest this dead-ass solemn show has come to any sense of humor or a fire sink on. Yes, that's right. I do enjoy that. So I enjoy Matt Smith and Gail Rankin sharing the screen. No point was I like, aha, this is a door opening into what the show's gonna be. Because I do not understand what the show is going to be unless I've signed up for a history of Westeros class. You may have. Apparently I have. You may have. And I've been truant and you're not allowing it. I thought Larissa and Aegon were a kind of breath of fresh air even though obviously both deformed men, one whose skin is still burning off apparently. Yeah, so you think it smelled like my kitchen this morning and rolled it? They are also completely on the same page and how they are acting so that there is just like a much more of like a like naturalistic style going on between those two. Yeah, most of this show is like I have walked into a chamber and I am like my queen, you know, which by the way is also the bear season five. I can't wait to talk about that. We can actually. It's just people walking into rooms going, hey, can I ask you a question? (laughing) What a golden age of people walking into rooms to talk to someone else in the room. Oh, because television's got so many other ideas than walking into rooms. No, we always come back to the classics. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. Anything else you wanted to hit from HOTD before we move on? No, I just, can you explain? Rain is the one who goes road the dragon and now is like a screwed up. Yes, and she went to the veil. She went back to the veil where she was basically on an extended babysitting gig with some of other runeerous kids and like was just trying to get them out of a harm's way. And because she hadn't claimed a dragon right, she was given this sort of belittling task. She goes out there, it's the veil. Yeah. She finds sheepstealer who's. And we've all agreed, that's his name. Fiery. Yeah. Trains him. Yeah. And so much as she claims him, but can't get him to do anything she wants. Half of what she wants. But then the other half is kind of like, well, whatever is down there is getting lit up. She does the thing, he does the thing that she wants. He just does it across the board. Yeah. And then she goes, he both sides it. She flies him back to the veil, says to Jane. What's up? Can I get some refuge here? Jane's like, nah. And she's like, well, I have a dragon. I'll protect the veil. And she's like, I just won't look for you. Yeah, you can be here. You can have that hill that we're going to pretend isn't there. I hope so. What if someone did that for us in like summer set? Like you don't. I'm not going to go over here with his cottages. You could just hang out and rough sleep out in a meadow somewhere. I'm going to turn your Charlie Rose bit back on you for one second. And Reina, I know you from where? She's one of the kids. Who's kids? She's Bayla's sister. Right? Oh, Bayla. Yeah. And Bayla is Coralus's granddaughter. I mean, it's all mixed up. Yeah. Yeah. I look at family tree. You can do the work. You can get the map of Westeros out. You can get the family tree out. you know, if you want to. You can Google Google your ass off Chris and find out what happens Man, I'm 49 years old like I you know, okay, Google. Okay. I first of all I'd still ask jeez I'm going backwards. Yeah, I'm not Googling. It's just I'm not not doing their AI nonsense It's not even a good search engine anymore. You don't Google no you what do you use? I use my brain computer I just have a certainty about things. It's like what we used to do We would just be like do you remember how free it was to like be at a bar and to start talking about some cartoon We missed a remember from the 80s and be like no I'm pretty sure that was real that We were young our brains were sharp. Yeah, and often super powered and We were like I have complete recall for all of the shit of space and time Yeah, and now I'll be like do you remember that thing you said yesterday and then I will have I will sundown and not be able to Remember a what we say yesterday, but be why I brought it up in the first place. Yeah, it's true We did have a beautiful moment last week though. This is this is a positive spin on this where I Texted you something that I just remembered you had said on the pod and I thought was so charming and you said who's this? No, you know, I said you had no recollection of saying that no memory. Yeah, this is what happens when you when you are on microphone five days a week Is I just can't remember do you think that you honestly that would be good like I hope I do Like I would love to be brought in front of Congress, and I can just say honestly. I don't I don't know Yeah, but I do not recall but Kai and Kaya have an archive Like you're gonna get undone Senator Senator Cassidy's good that that certainly looks like me But I just don't remember saying I'm just picturing like like Sheldon White House and like Blooming fall being like and so you characterize the events of January Six of those guys still senators. They are. Yeah, they are. Oh, I thought you meant like I thought you were like dising them No, I was just I couldn't remember if Sheldon was still a rocket it. Yeah, Sheldon's he's told he's still you know What else is the state of Rhode Island? Yeah, we're not participating in the fair of fairs on in Washington all the states Rhode Island is not no anyone else not the commie corridor is not participating pretty much that's sick Yeah, so that's that's that's that's New England pretty much and Pennsylvania has AJ Brown weighed in on that I'm just trying to like unite the streams here. You know, you know what you know what I'm wondering though there is a remarkable archive of You now and your your takes and you know piece by piece your personal history even our shared history sure They're gonna Simone your ass Oh, make me like make an AI-bot. I think there's gonna be I don't you think It might be a decent to good hang just AI Chris Am I wrong like I feel like has this whole thing do you think anthropic could win back the federal government if they were like the new Got the new agent is Chrissy and he just if it wasn't got a lioness Who's just you laughing if every time you're like? Chrissy, what's this rash and it's just like you know what in lioness season two episode four Joe play by Zoe sold on it ask the same thing first of all listeners know that there was a period in 2004 5 and 6 when you watch so many episodes of house MD I would ask you medical advice sure and you pretty much told me if it was there wasn't loopess and you are a hundred percent right Yeah, it was never loopess If I just blown the lid off this thing I'm sure I'm sure Like I don't think we're the first people to be in danger of getting completely digitized and then obviated not me This is all an act. This isn't even me you guys don't even know my real name So we actually love house the dragon. You don't know what I like So I constantly zag to defeat the machines This episode is brought to you by Fandall predicts you can predict the summer soccer showcase action All the way to the final match with Fandall predicts all you have to do is sign up to get your $25 bonus From the opening game to the final whistle stay locked in with every pass every goal and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion sign up now for your $25 bonus on Fandall predicts go to fandall.com slash predicts to sign up That's fandall.com slash predicts to get your $25 bonus disclaimer Offered by Fandall prediction markets LLC a registered futures commission merchant 18 and over restrictions apply See terms at fandall.com slash predicts slash bonus dash offer dash terms So we had initially talked about doing the bear in chunks like doing three three two We're not doing a show on Thursday. We've both finished the series. Yeah, due to the nature of which they released the show obviously a binge but also in you know The first seven episodes were made of made available to the press and then The final episode went up on Friday Thursday, right Thursday night I mean all the episodes went up concurrently. So the first time that was when and then I watched it on Friday And I think that as we sort of saw on our previous conversation about the first few episodes were you Very Catholic of you were like you said we were gonna do three. I did three Uh, and then I was like I watched all seven and I have a completely different opinion Let's just finish it. That's what happens when AI hallucinates She doesn't even listen to the prompt. I'm sorry. I just need your social security number before we finish this That does sound challenging. Have you ever considered murder? Um, so let's talk about the rest of the season of the bear. This is season five of the bear So spoilers for the entirety of it spoilers for all of the bear Just fair warning. It does seem anecdotally that especially with an eight episode runtime this season Which is the first eight episode season. I believe since the first it had done 10 for the past few seasons Um, it does seem like people just binge the show. It does I I mean I can't speak for everyone But I don't know many people who savor it especially this season, which was so it was not create I do not I will go to my grave People at effects even Christopher story could tell us like no, no, no I it's episodic like I want people to like watch it and take it some time. No, not this. I this was a Tasting menu of a season you were supposed to sit there for the whole thing. That's what it's about one day Well then with a coda and I think that you it's meant to be enjoyed as much together as possible So with that being said yeah After watching the first three episodes and being like I am as close as I ever have been to sending this back to the chef How do you feel about it after watching the complete after enjoying the complete meal? Um, I thought that episode seven and eight were compelling and lovely and a nice coda to a series that now I feel confident saying should have ended two or three years ago um I thought that the show kicked into action When the cooking actually started. It's that's episode five really five or six. I believe So five is when they start They open but nobody has shown up right um the moment that the season Suddenly had a pulse to me was when karmie cooks the lamb and pours a little tenato tenato on top of it Um, it's but it's check-offs tenato. It was check-offs tenato that tuna I mean and to that point I appreciated the moment when it all suddenly seemingly goes wrong in seven because Breaking plates is a lot better than spinning plates, which is really what the show have been doing for upwards of 20 plus episodes Um, where did you just come up with it? Yeah, I wrote that one down. I wrote that one down. You're right. Did you see my eyes? No, but I was like that's really good if you're just if you're just dealing no every so often in my notes app There's like a line where I was like Let me back in coach Cracks knuckles get that grandline call and go out. I get that for so often No, this I mean honestly, this is one of those times only because the you wish you had like two thousand words The totality of it is deserving of it and the relationship to the show is complicated enough that I think no matter what we talk about now It's not really going to capture the full extent of it um Because I think there's Very little way to express the nuance necessary to say that it is I think it is impossible now Maybe in a few weeks or months with some hindsight that might change, but I think it is impossible now for me to think of this series as a success Separate apart from the fact that the first two seasons are two of the best seasons of TV of the century Is that enough honestly? Probably um, and it was certainly enough to give me some pleasure at the end of this season but the sheer amount of time spent With characters as we were joking about before I don't know if everyone listens to each segment, but with house of the dragon The majority of this season up to the moment when it kicks into action is people one character walking into a room saying Hey, can I ask you a question and they talk about something that happened in the previous episode there is no Momentum from scene to scene there is no build there is no individual story other than Oliver plaid and fucking brine compliment driving around Chicago yelling at people about air rights A story that also goes nowhere just to kind of get out of the claustrophobia of the restaurant I thought it was extremely frustrating And I think you could you could capture all of that and I do want to talk about the positive things of those two episodes I don't want to get too far off the path with that but The arrested paralyzed nature of the show is captured best in the absolute Petrification of its main character from I believe midway through season three until he puts on a tie in episode 508 Jeremy Allen White is a bizarrely stoic Easter Island statue of himself standing in the background of this season of TV. Now, is that a story worth telling where Sidney takes over and everyone else steps up and he learns that he actually has a team behind him to catch him if he falls or trust falls? That's a meaningful story. Did he have to be on the show to prove it? Did it have to take this long to get there? I genuinely don't know. And that's when we start to go into the place where I don't necessarily want to get into, which is who asks for this and what are you going to make to do it? Because it was such a struggle to get to a place that I think was deserving. Okay. So I'll try and hit some of your points and we can just make this into more of a back and forth rather than like an allow me to retort kind of thing. I'll say that beyond you called it compelling, I found seven to be deeply moving, both because I think this is what I alluded to last Thursday. There's an authenticity, I think, to the characters and the performances, whether or not they are always being put in a position of maximal entertainment value or interesting storytelling is completely up for debate and your mileage may vary with that. But the behaviors and the emotional states of a lot of these people ring true to me. And some of their experiences ring very true to me. And to watch them get some kind of catharsis, but also honestly to watch them actually in action again, finally. So the first time in a long time, to see them kind of like be together and moving around and helping one another and hurting one another and yelling at one another, but also like improvising and finding solutions and fixes, I found it really, really effective. And honestly, the Karmie stuff was like secondary to me. I found myself just really, really blown away by ebemos back rock that season. That's, that's, and the richy character. I think you can make an argument that this show is more about Richie and Sid that it is about Karmie. In terms of, in terms of journey, in terms of transformation. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Now we can, here's the magic trick. Richie goes from a guy screaming about in cells and blade runner and can't control himself and is essentially like keeping the place alive, dealing coke in the alley. To a six week stosh experience that ever where he, is that how long he's there? Shorter. Shorter. However long, but not very long he's at ever and he comes out the other side with a completely different worldview and a completely different set of priorities. We can debate whether or not that's realistic. It's realistic. It's the Chris Ryan story. Absolutely. Look at him. I mean, Bill Simmons finishing school. That's right. It only took 14 years. I always thought that his character this season expressed himself through action. Even if that action was doing the like sure table, like the EMDR kind of therapy. Yeah. I heard this on a podcast, I think I'm supposed to do this kind of coping mechanisms. And his conclusion of going to Japan and getting to see the Ninja Museum and going with Jess, but also like even that moment with him and Karmie and the freezer is just like I've never been on a plane. Yep. And that that was like that felt earned. I felt like I'd been on the road trip and we finally got to the Woodrow Wilson rest off together. What was going to Joyce? Joyce something. Yeah. But Joyce was a man we found out. I know that. I did not know that. Yeah. We're talking about New Jersey term pike. Sorry. I'm distracting. Evan Moss-Backerack's performance absolutely is the beating heart of the show. The transformation of Richie is a beautiful thing to watch. And it's also something that I don't want to take for granted. One thing that happens when you have a show in your life with the consistency of the bear is that you begin to blur the lines between actor and character and you just begin to assume that they show up and are just, you know, it's second nature to them. You almost forget about the magic trick of acting and watching not just where he started that character and where he ended that character and realizing that he was holding something consistently the whole time. And then you see an interview with him or you see a video clip of him talking to someone. And he's a distinctive looking guy and he looks different when he is not being Richie. I mean, he is completely subsumed into this character and understands him on a cellular level. And the wins of the show, I mean, to be clear, like I've never really had a had a problem with the pathos of the bear. Like it is a big sloppy bloody rare stake in terms of its emotions. It's got to open heart. And him excelling and making things happen for people and the recurring mantra in 7 of I got you and how you kind of fake it till you make it when you speak to people you care about that you keep repeating it and then they do have each other that they do dig deeper and find something. Well, it was meaningful. I mean, it was effective and I really, really enjoyed that. I think I had trouble with the how long it took to get to a place that was already we were already on the precipice of it, if that makes sense. But I did think that there were some smart decisions looking at the show through his lens. Like there was more. There were more there were more places for him to go, whereas I did feel other characters were kind of just playing the hits or whether that's the opportunity they were given on screen or the performer themselves, I'm not sure. One thing that I didn't love in the season, for example, was like Lionel Boyce plays Marcus, who I really like, the journey of this season, the journey of the character overall, which was becoming more and more morose and serious and dramatic and then culminates in him basically having a personality transplant for 6 and 7. Now, I understand it's because his father's coming and he's feeling pressure, but I also just felt the heavy hand of we need some friction to occur in this just absolute love fest that is the bear. I think between him and Lucas specifically, but I think it was also like, you can't, there's no jeopardy if all these people are essentially like deep down geniuses who all get along. Geniuses, but also like, you know, Marcus's whole problem in the kitchen has been how deliberate he is. Like they've always wanted him to go faster. They've always wanted. And what this last service or the last service of the bear shows is like, this is the maximum amount of nothing goes right. But when nothing goes right, like the creativity is actually sparked. So that's where, you know, Karmie thinks because he's dropped this lamb, the last lamb that the entire night is ruined. But it's actually like, unlocks him once they get his back to create brioche out of nothing. Yeah. And finish off Marcus's last dish so that the Michelin star guy who's just a guy can have like the dessert of a lifetime and everybody gets to basically be the best versions of themselves during that dinner. It's like the idea of having a cigarette and beer soaked outdoor party patio next to a Michelin star tasting menu is, would that work? Is there a place like that? I don't know. But that sounds pretty cool. And if there is, it would be in Chicago and it allows the facts to be the facts. Instead of asking us to be like, all these guys turned into like, matredees from heaven. Like they are like, no, I'm the guy who like, when everything's kind of going wrong, I'm like, dude, let's go out and smoke a cigarette, you know, like that's kind of fun. And I thought that the reason why the season worked for me, even if it felt repetitive to you, like where you're like, it's just people walking into rooms and asking each other how they're doing or like, what do they think of what just happened five minutes ago? First of all, that's basically what offices are like. Like, they are very repetitive of like just going, like, hey, like, did you see that thing? And what are you going to do about this thing? Maybe that's not great television, but it didn't, it wasn't crazy to me that it was happening. But where the third and fourth season, especially the third, if I'm remembering correctly, had a lot of like really intense close-ups isolation can't really tell if this person is in the same room. Not on them in the morning show level, but like, it's about like almost trying to get interiority by boring into people with the camera. This season got interiority by putting like people on like a stage based together. I mean, the restaurant is shot completely differently. It looks like a sound stage to me. And I thought that they got where people were at in their lives by doing rather than saying for me. Do you point about Michelin star dining like I think that one of the interesting moments of tension in seven was the images of people going into the dining room and then we see their perspective and we see people enjoying themselves and celebrating. And then that's countered with or juxtaposed with Richie being like, get the fuck up, get the fuck up, which is a feeling that actually doesn't really engender a nice experience in a restaurant when you are being rushed out. And the idea that like 10 minutes per course, 90 minutes, I don't know if people would walk away being like, that was really a special celebration. But that tension was interesting even to like, and now do you want to go ahead and smoke a blast? Blue rails with some hands. I thought, look, to use the show itself is so drenched in food culture and that I think it actually is appropriate to use metaphors in this case. And I don't know if you've read or anyone listening has read some of the recent reviews of the French laundry. Now, the French laundry is an ear text of this show. - Which is the God TK? - The God TK, Thomas Keller, who helped Carmie trust the chicken and a flashback that was reused liberally in this season as well, the thing about the French laundry when it opened was that it was so quietly confident and revolutionary and every dish felt like it came from the mind of a genius and it was an incredibly special experience because you traveled for it. You're up in the Napa Valley and you, part of mid-course meal, you walk through the gardenery, go to the kitchen and a lot of what people in America think of as the finest of fine dining or destination dining comes from that. He then became Thomas Keller, became the celebrity and people would spend enormous amount of money to eat there and then he kind of franchised the bakery thing and he opened per se in New York which tried to give you the French laundry experience at a mall in Columbus Circle. And recently, both per se and the French laundry have been re-reviewed by New York Times critics and by San Francisco Chronicle critics and they've been pretty rough. Basically being like the salmon cornetto is a brilliant idea, but it's also like someone showing up at, you know, Freeze London and I'm like, I've painted a Titian. Like someone already did that. Like this is part of our culture now and we're responding to it. And there's a freshness issue here. So I think you are right to point out that when the show's magic was when people, these beautiful actors and these beautiful characters and the sensitive emotional camera was digging something out of the raw ingredients that we were given on the screen. And then the show kept going back hoping to get a similar flavor pop from those same scenes and it was diminishing returns. I would point out the scene, Robert Townsend who's given one of the best performances in the history of the bear in his like four or five appearances as Sydney's father. The scene where he, with the two of them are at the diner in the finale is a beautiful scene. It's completely successful and it's pure bear because it is so naturalistic and so emotional and clever and lovely and lived in. And you're like, was there a script or they just, are they just having a good time? And you could feel it work and it still works sometimes. And then there's a scene where like Marcus and Carmier talking and Marcus is just in order to explain himself is basically saying what I only imagine is Chris Store or one of his writers experience turning on the criterion channel. Watch it live the night before. Like Marcus is suddenly trying to explain himself through the prism of some dark foreign movie he saw the night before. And I'm like, this feels phony to me. This feels staged and artificial and is trying to mine something out of very little. Everything you're saying I appreciate and speaks to the love that I have had for a show. But I feel frustrated. - Yeah, maybe I'm, maybe I'm just a little bit sappier maybe, you know, like, sit saying fire brussels to Tina really like that got you. - Yeah, man. I think that like there are different examples in pop culture of things that will hit you. And I know for instance that like you were very like susceptible to examples of fathers and daughters, for instance. - We don't know why. - Yeah. - I just mentioned Robert Townsend and Hayhoe Debra E C. - Let's talk about the conclusion of the show a little bit. - Okay, one major thing from the conclusion of the show. - Yeah. - I really respect Sidney Pax internationally the way I pack. - Yeah. - We have the same opinions about one of every over-the-counter drug, easily reachable just for confidence. And more than that, half a Xanax is really all you need. - She's right, you know? I thought that was a really good point for Travis. - I know that was good too. But that's a long flight for Richie to be in coach at the window. - He's in coach, but he's at the window and he's got a lovely companion by the side. - He got just in middle. Although I maybe I couldn't tell if I was at a three-seater or a two-seater. - Run the tape. (laughs) Let's go back. - You guys an economy plus? Or what do we do? A comfort plus? - I mean, I think Pellegrino could, here's the way I thought. I bet Pellegrino could have flown him comfort plus and there is a direct flight Chicago to Tokyo. But did they also invite Jess? Did he get comfort? And then he said, you know what? Instead, give me two economy seats. - Right. - And in fact, one full bar of the next split. - I was totally like, we're just, we're totally down to work with you on however you want to do this. (laughs) - Whatever you need. - The conclusion is that Carmio goes to follow us through with his decision to leave the bear. - Right. - Um, Sid and Richie and the gang are gonna continue to do the restaurant. Ebers idea to franchise the beef has come through. There is a very lovely moment where he calls the character that was played by Rob Reiner and says, as you wish. - I'm glad you called him. - Call back to Princess Pride. - That was beautiful. - There's lots of little easter eggs in there that go fast, bohito boats or go fastboats, mohitos. - Yeah, but there's a Wi-Fi password. - There was also some cute little nods like when Dee Dee asks if, no, it's not Dee Dee. Who asks if Sid and Carmie are in a relationship? - Somebody asks Pete that and he's like, there are theories. - There are theories out there. I mean, there was a little self-awareness. And I think even their hug at the end was like, this is fucking happening. And it was just like, no, these guys just like. - That's good. So the conclusion of the bear as a restaurant, I think that there is like a real obvious feel good aspect to that. I want to talk to you about Carmie's fate. - Wait, I have one other question about the restaurant. The moment when we find out the fact that it wasn't, Starman wasn't Starman, but it was the guy that we all thought it was from God. - The previous season. - The previous season four, I don't know about this. - I believe it's, I believe it's four. - Middle season four. I thought that was well done. I like that. I think that really tracked with the heart of the show that there's something beautiful about restaurants but something that is also very temporary and fleeting. And you can't create magic. You just move on to the next night and try it again. And so this beautiful night was not the one that will be memorialized in the review, but did you feel there was any kind of, I'll say the word cowardice in the, no, you didn't get a star, you got to. Did you feel like that was? - Yeah, 'cause it's just like everybody, it's look under your seat. Everybody gets car keys. Did you feel any of that or are you just in your bag about the Brussels sprouts still and you were feeling it? - What do you want to have happened to these people? - I mean, I kind of wanted them to be like no star but it's like a promising review and now you can go build this into the next one. - I think that I'm being intentionally provocative. - Probably need to have some sort of validation in that they've made the star. - Such a thing. - Just thing that's gonna keep this place open. - Right. - Like their price point is probably too high. - Yep. - I thought that by the end of it, culinary like they arrived at a place that was like the middle ground between the beef and karmies kind of like overworked stuff. - It's true. - So doing coke ribs and that's the French Montana tape that I was telling you about. - Doing like Cindy's mother's ribs, Tina's Brussels sprouts, you know, the banana foster banana son, the Sunday that Marcus is making. Like the things that these guys are all making are to grab a phrase from the top chef judges. They're cooking their food. They're telling their story, you know? - They're putting their heart on a plate. - They are. And so I did not mind that the end of a series had a happy ending. - Yeah, I got it. - I don't know what to do. - I want it. - Yeah, I want it to be. - Did you want Karmie to be like, we got two stars, but I'm staying now. - And I'm still the boss. - No, let's, this is what you wanted to ask about. - So I mean, this has been probably among people talking about the bears. Like ending it on seven or half way through eight visiting an enormously satisfying thing. The birthday cake for Richie's daughter, like the whole cast gathering, heartnet, fucking zooming in, you know? Like. - Bob Odin Kirk showing up. - Odin Kirk. I thought that that was really nice. - Claire Bear. - Yeah. And I really liked that they did not make Claire the like, I gotta go see about a girl, you know? Like I know it was referenced of like, did you call her yet? And he was like, I'll call her tomorrow. - I, for as much as I am ragging on the show for it's fast sprint towards emotion at all times. I thought the restraint shown in the end was very, very lovely. I really thought that that was a nice gesture toward- - And I'm gonna call Carmian and wake up the next day and turn into fucking comic relief Robin Williams. Like, I'm glad that like, he's still haunted and still like, not a great hang and has his issues, you know? - Yeah, I thought that maybe two, maybe almost to a point of like, it's detriment where it was like, I kind of wanted a personality transplant for this character by the end and he's going into, what is ostensibly a job interview at the end and talking about like, his trauma, yeah? - I wanna talk about that and I also wanna discuss, we're not people to say it, but who is the bigger Chicago legend, whether man, Tom Skilling or Bonnie Hunt, TBD? We can't decide that. - Mulaney's coming from that crown and he's playing Riggly. - That's true, that is true. I don't wanna leave from like the cooks. I don't wanna leave a bad taste in people's mouth here, like at its best. This show was such a brilliant and beautiful exploration of therapy, but with drama, and with professionalism and work, and the realities of living in a city and being alive right now, that I thought that the place where it ended, which was a really deep sense of the things that matter go on. Whether it's Marcus saying goodbye to Luca, and you understand that people sometimes move in different directions, but they have a bond and they will be happy to see each other again, whether it's Claire, and fucking the, you know, the store players minus pre-larson just showing up for a day, and the celebration being. What was your name? Was that Fanny? Francine. Francine. And that it being a celebration for Richie's daughter that brings everyone out because ultimately getting together for family and lifting each other up is something. Yeah, if you find a physical space to make everybody feel special, it's like, that's the goal of the restaurant. Yeah, not all restaurants. No, but of life. And you get the sense that the restaurant itself could go away, you get a sense that people could come and go and leave and Carmie could leave. But they have built something that is lasting if it is tended to, and I think that that was a beautiful summation of what the show always was. And as someone who briefly had a podcast about TV shows ending, like that needs to be celebrated. Don't sell yourself short, man. If architecture school doesn't work out, you can always come back to podcasts. So all of that was wonderful. Did you specifically, Carmie leaving or not leaving? I think there was some confusion of the fact that he is interviewing for an internship and monologuing about his feelings, and that it is intercut with the birthday party and scenes with him back at the restaurant. So is the implication that he is back because this is still a family business and his friends are there, but he himself is no longer chopping on you. I did not think that he was like, that interview went poorly. I'm back at the restaurant. Did you think as management that the interview went well? I don't think that, I don't think Mulaney set him up to succeed. That the Mulaney character being like, just share your shit. That's what's hot right now. I was like, I didn't, I don't know if that's the case. Yeah, in 2026, I don't know if that's the best way to get a fast track internship. I thought that the idea of this guy who wants to express himself through art or expressness, he wants to find a new ally for his creative spirit. I don't know anything about architecture or what kind of apprenticeship you have to go through, or if Carmine has been to college. I don't think he did. He's had quite an education. I don't know like what you can do if you've not been to him. What do they say to him? What does Sydney say? What skills do you have? He says none. Not true. He is a pretty good cook. I mean, I think you could always like cook sling burgers. Do you think that in the year 2026, franchising a sandwich shop for ghost kitchens is a mind blowing idea when they were like, holy shit. Oh my god. Did you think that was so you didn't. I thought that the two, I thought that the cheese computer. Uncle Jimmy was a necessary like get out of the get out of the restaurant do some we got to have something else aside from like only shots of the restaurant. I thought that the scene where they go to get to get the air rates from that lady and like there's raised somewhere they're like fuck you Ray that was kind of funny but like also like. Ultimately it was like can you imagine that they got to the end of the show and they were like that's a bad idea. And they're like and you got no stars in the restaurants closed. Birthdays are canceled. No, no, last the last thing I'll say and then I do want I want to pick a bigger point about it is. I hated the music. I think that was the other thing that took me out. I hated the Toronto. I liked it. I think I need to realize. I thought we I thought they overdid the needle drops and three and four and I thought I am in general. I'm pretty deaf to like cool needle drop has nothing to do with what's happening you know like you're going to love super girl from what I understand. But my point like I just think that they've got we've gotten away from like building out emotional textures of style. Yeah with original music because people are like so drunk on like and did you see the playlist that I mean you know it's like. The bearer's the official bear playlist on spotify is awesome I listen to it all the time it's a great collection of music I thought they. Relied to heavily it on three and four and I thought getting out of the way and having a. All be it reminiscent of social network or manhunter or what or or see for whatever was. Cool it got out of the way of the characters and let them do the do the storytelling I think that overall. This is one of the most significant shows of our professional covering TV existence I think that at its peak it was the most electric experience for yeah it was. It was fresh it was bold it was thrilling it was. So ambitious and also I think in terms of just the uniqueness I was digging it for this last week but I do think that. The spirit of the show I mean that this shows always take on the characteristics and the character of the people in charge of the shows that is something that you you can't. Honestly say after working behind the scenes of some things for good or for ill and the spirit of the show being one of found family and inclusiveness being celebrated by Chris and his colleagues including like his real-life partner Gillian Jacobs who's on the show and good friends people become close friends. Is a beautiful thing especially in this fallen soon to be a apocalypse that we all live in but I do think that in many ways the legacy of the show is the other side of the praise that we'd given it for a long time which is. When premiered and we were like wow this came out of nowhere has been in our life consistent will be consistent in our life every year hit its deadlines show up make stars out of actors not the other way around. And kind of go on too long and frustrate that's a legacy that's a classic television legacy that one can be proud of honestly and one that we don't get enough of we don't get a lot of these days we when things arrive now everything is so bespoke and crafted and labored over and then years in between. That we rarely just have this specific experience where you get something it is wonderful and then. There's some bumps on the way yeah but it stays true to itself pretty rare I mean like we we was more common probably when we started doing this podcast you know where we were like damn homelands season five. So that was the show time model yeah wow. But I this is one where I don't really have an intellectual argument against you I'm just like mental ought to me made me feel things yeah I don't think the last couple of seasons were on the level of the first two seasons but I thought in some there are large stretches of three where I thought the filmmaking was breathtaking I thought the filmmaking generally and across the board was top of its class. Yeah and that the conclusion of it really was like very cathartic for me in a way that I did not expect for it to happen so it is 47 episodes they made which is shocking on believe it since 2022. Do you want to talk briefly about star city before we get out of here yeah if you have the time I just want to say one thing that's sort of an odd thing to lead with with this show. And I hate to say it okay because I want I want to bring Hollywood back whoever the mayor is it doesn't matter and whoever in this room supports whichever mayoral candidate we don't know we don't know we don't know who still might be writing in some of the people who we thought were falling off the ball where they shoot this. Vilnius Lithuania got some really good extras in Lithuania do you ever lose the narrative thread thinking about how every extra on screen most of them don't understand what's being said in the scene because they don't speak English. Irina arena is following the American agent to the buses yeah a lot of faces walking all through it's supposed to be Moscow a little bit confused about how far star city is from Moscow because it seems like people are making multiple trips per day it's kind of like where I live to sick and more studios you know like I complain about it but I can get there you don't have to like. Get cleared it's security in multiple places honestly L.A.F.D. stopping me when she's. Following the American agent through Moscow and then through the bus station and on to the bus and different buses yeah there's a vibrancy in a life to that that I was like. What do we forget how to make shit like this like I understand that those people may have gotten paid like two rubles and I don't want to. Not the currency of Lithuania but I think they take your point for now not funny not funny yeah I just think that that's the kind of thing where I would be like that's a pretty normal. People shadowing one another in spy stories like we see them all the time popped off the screen as did obviously last 15 minutes which were extraordinary to your point. Spoilers for episode five six five six six yeah to your point what we appreciate in filmmaking wherever it is shot is. Anything that takes advantage of maximizes celebrates where it's being shot location shooting is a crucial part of. Compelling filmmaking that's like 101 like it's a super basic comment but we don't have as much of it as we would like because it is incredibly. expensive. You know, when you are in making a TV production, one of the first things they say are, what are your standing sets? What can we reuse? What can we amortize from season to season should the show get renewed? And then maybe if you've made sure you're going to use these sets for your five or six days, maybe you get two days on location. And so you're limited in the beginning. And then you're even more limited if budgetarily you are in a more expensive place where you have, you know, the Rubel doesn't go as far as it does. For unions, labor, which are good. unions is traditionally very big in that part of the world though. Very good point. Should we delve into that? How many cans of tuna did you pack for that conversation? I don't think it is a blow against Minister John Voitz campaign to bring filming back to Los Angeles to say that it looks really good. I would rather just not be shot in North Hollywood. It looks really good where it is. So that is incredible. And I think that the texture adds so much in every scene and not just on location, but the production design because there are moments even I am not, I am loving this show. But like they're sometimes when like Roscova and Chief Designer are having the same argument, I'm like, oh, that's a different color to open the background. It's electrifying. And if I pause and rewatch it and they're just saying the same things, maybe it wouldn't be as rich of an experience. The other thing that I hit my head against on this episode that I think is worth a longer conversation and maybe with the creators. Yes. When Anna Maxwell Martin in this episode does her thing, this is what I, yeah, I think we want to say the same thing. At one point she goes sort it out. Very good. And I'm like, that's a British lady. Did you just figure that out? No, but it felt culturally British. Right. And I have, I wonder whether or not there are any, there are people out there who feel like there's something lacking from like a quintessentially Russian soul here. Like there is something. Well, almost like we are writing in the idiom or in the voice of like a certain kind of British. First of all, I think you're getting confused because that is also what I shouted at the sports bar on Sunday, on Saturday when England couldn't put it in the back of the net against Panama and the first half. That's right. So maybe that's a little block that's partly confusing. I think that I look forward to if we do get the chance to talk to those guys who made the show. There is both an appreciation for the detail of the Soviet block, but also there is a very convenient monster. I mean, chief designer calls her a monster in the sense that like, I am no scholar of the Soviet space program, but the degree to which this one woman is empowered to end the lives and the billion-rubal investment in a mission to Venus because of what it may mean for the security apparatus in her career is wild. It is excellent for the story because every episode pushes all everything into the center of the table in a way that I admire. Every decision that gets made by a character on this show immediately winds up affecting the next decision somebody makes immediately. She designer being like, this is a secret mission. So it's not going to be on TV and nobody's going to know we did it. And her being like, hence why I can fucking kill these people. Yes. And we can just be like, they died in a training accident in Siberia. Like, there is consequences to every action. And that's why it's such compelling television. And I don't mind that it's an hour and five minutes. Like, I'm like, oh, my God. And he told a lot of nostalgia. She knows like it's like everything kind of like is building towards this tension that I think is masterfully woven together. I don't remember for all mankind feeling like this maybe I'm wrong. And I do wonder where the specter of the for all mankind story telling will kick in. One of the things that might be giving us all this pleasure in terms of like, wow, I can't believe how fast they're moving. However, they're running right at every problem might be because star city season two, which I think is not an impossibility, will pick up in the late 70s. Like this might be our, it may do time jumps in the same way, which we may have mixed feelings about because they have found so much fertile soil here. Or is the fact that we're responding to it to this degree because they are not letting the grass grow beneath their feet, as they say, sure, possibly in Russia. I really couldn't tell you. But I the end was the end of this episode is nuts. I mean, it is, I don't know if anyone listening this deep into the podcast, even into this deep into this segment are still on the fence about star city. But if I were to tell you that the sixth episode of the first season of a show ends with a KGB security official demanding the pressure be cut on a manned space mission to Venus. That is so metal. Honestly, I didn't even know you could do that from the ground. Here's my real question. Is there really no tape delay? I don't know. Like, I want to be clear about something and I'm sorry to make this personal for a moment. But you know, thanks to our good friend and colleague Sarah here, we were able to live stream on a private YouTube link. My daughter's about mitzvah to my parents back in Philadelphia. This is 2026. This is the YouTube Google Corporation. And that took, there was a two and a half minute delay. Yeah. Because my daughter was swearing. The idea is that the friend one is invested in the space program. I got to wrap it up there. So you don't, okay, it's because I do think it would be a much longer watch if they were like open the hatch. No. And then a day and a half and a half. They have like crystal clear, like next-tailed chirp these guys. Thanks to Kai and Kai. We'll be back next Monday. Everybody enjoy your fourth. There will be an Andy Greenwald will publicize. You might as well. You've given me some songs. I'm adding my songs. I don't tend to publicize things that take place on other people's Spotify profiles. That's that like I have my own. No, I'm just getting, of course I'm going to do that. We have our annual barbecue playlist, which I only found out last year was to be played out of barbecue. So I just thought it was cool songs. But apparently it's not, you don't nobody wants to listen to post hardcore while grilling. You do? This can be, this is like a window into your experience. But I sent you some, some real cool dad rock. I will say there has never been an ice age. Yeah. What? It will be so clear who contributed which songs. Okay. I think people have a good time. We'll send that out on our various social feats, including the watch pod, underscore Instagram. Everybody have a great weekend. We did it America. We did it.