The Basement: John B. Alexander | Roswell, MJ-12, Skinwalker: The Colonel Who Was There

Today, we're sitting down with Colonel John Alexander. He commanded Green Berets and Vietnam, ran advanced weapons concepts at Los Alamos, and pioneered the military's Non-Lithal Weapons Program. He also threw spoon-bending parties for army generals, sponsored a scientist whose lab levitated scrap metal, and was the first investigator to spend a night on Skinwalker Ranch. And none of it was a hobby. It was work. "A night at Skinwalker Ranch? You couldn't give me to spend a lunch there. It's a place as demons that makes a crab cat look cutly. Today we're… "Fedrican!" Today we're covering the army's psychic warfare years, the voodoo fire ceremony he filmed in West Africa, and why a man with a file full of things that can't happen isn't worried about dying. And at one point he mentions that he could beat a polygraph, but he couldn't fool his own white blood cells. That one's gonna bug me for a while. "Yeah, they can never polygraph me. No post points, no fingers, no sweat glands, and I'm untestable, baby." You confessed to things nobody asked about. Once we wrap up, I'll pop back in and break down our conversation. Let's go down to the basement. Colonel John Alexander. Welcome to the basement. "Great to be here, I think." "I didn't do it, I wasn't there, I don't know what to do about it." We're gonna have fun. I want to start somewhere, no one does. We're in a village in West Africa in the middle of a voodoo ceremony, cameras are rolling, and the shaman, what takes a fire to his face, what happened? "Oh no, it's much more than that. This was, we were attending a voodoo ceremony, and this particularly case, the shaman himself came out. Now, he picks up a flaming torch that puts it in his mouth and, you know, throws it. Now, what's really interesting was, it was my camera by the way that it was rolling, and at distance, like we're sitting right now, this is not a long way the way, and yes, it's hot. You know what I mean? There's definitely heat. That long chin viscars that don't sing. Now, this was also went on, and they brought out two young boys, probably about ten or so, when the shaman goes, "This is passing the power," and say, "Well, they haven't got the full range yet, but they would stand in the fire, sit in the fire, eat the fire. Yeah, it defies everything, you know, about thermal dynamics." I also, they say, "Well, they have some magical, you know, asbestos substance or something." I understand that these are people who look up to dirt and poverty. Right. But they have some exotic materials or something, and they did have a long history as to how that came about, but it just defies the rules, there's no doubt about that. What was the ceremony for? They're lighting fire. No, this was, we were with a small group, and they were doing it for us, but this is something they do all the time. Probably the shaman can do that, or what I'm getting at is, "Can we all learn that power?" That is a question that's hard to say. There's obviously a period of training and introduction, like I said, with the boys, he was passing the power and said, "They've only got so much." We saw a number of them do this. The backstory is that this goes back to the days of slavery. We were in Benine at the time, or we were both Togo and Benine, but in that area in West Africa. Most of the slaves were actually captured by Africans, and one of the things that had happened is that they had been captured. Most of the people were put in one of these corrals, which was then set on fire and burned alive. After that, there were a few survivors who had been outside, and they said they made a deal with the fire gods that if they would honor them in return for protection. Now, we're in an area where, if you believe, the physical evidence we saw is they definitely could do these things. I mentioned that I had taken this to a local magician, and the guys who deal with fire and say, "Okay, how do you do this?" The answer was, "You don't." He had showed me the tricks of people, how they do fire things on stage in that, and part of it, frankly, is just how much pain can you stand? How far do you go before it kicks in? But the beer's done cinch, that doesn't. No. That's why I say the laws of thermodynamics should be if you put someone on the skin, you'll burn. Right. It didn't happen. Were you there on official capacity, or just curiosity? No, no, no. This was personal, and after I had retired the second time. But I want to point out one misconception about voodoo itself. voodoo, in my view, is not just a religion, it is an entire way of life. This is, you know, people who incorporate this, met the guy there, who, his job, literally, was to dream. And he was the shaman he had been trained, and he would dream at night and come out and tell the village, you know, here's what's going to happen is what you should do, a long training process that went into that. He did say he had adopted one acolyte, don't know who he is, and the villagers didn't know, but was training them to succeed him. But if you travel again, throughout southern Benin and Togo, and probably Nagano, every place you go, you see the trees, and there's a white thing on it, or a white flag, that means the doctor was in. We were there, actually, we happened to hit it on the voodoo New Year's Day when we had massive numbers of voodoo folks in. And yeah, some of the things we saw, I guess one of the ones that, I don't know if you've seen this or not, again, we arrived at a Buddhist ceremony that particular day, a small village, and there were several people in trance with this one woman who's just totally out of it. And they take gunpowder and put it in their hand and it blows up. And totally unfazed, and how you do that without burning, but definitely happening. Did you go there trying to debunk it or understand it? Well, we tried, essentially, I kept track of the guy that was in there, and we remember when Ebola broke out, and interestingly, those areas did not have a single case of Ebola, although it was around them, and his quote was voodoo will protect us. Now that's taking a big leap of pace, if you will. But again, the evidence was it didn't happen, so you don't know, did it just not hit that particular area, and of course we have a new Ebola outbreak now that's occurring. Did that group, that tribe, have long life-expecting sees? I don't know. I think that's just, I'm curious about that stuff. All right, we have to do a little bit of the biography. You gave your first UFO talk in 1947, on the school radio in fifth grade. That was the summer flying saucer was coined. Right. Did you give your talk before Kenneth Arnold went public? No, no, no. It happened as there were a few newspaper articles. This was across Wisconsin from the time, and it just caught my attention, as it was just becoming popular at the time, and I went to a very unique grade school. We were part of what's now the University of Wisconsin system, but then was a teacher's college, and they needed guinea pigs, so that was us, and that we had access to the facilities of the college, and they would allow students to talk on anything they wanted. My talk, that particular day, was on UFOs. A couple of years back, the government wanted to launch a central bank digital currency. Full visibility into every dollar you spent. Turns out, that wasn't the real threat. The Genius Act just gave private stablecoins that same surveillance power, anyway. Same cage, friend of your name. And there's already frozen $4.4 billion in while it's working with law enforcement. No court order. 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You'll receive a free investor kit explaining how physical gold and silver can be added to an IRA, or for a WinK, a free portfolio review with no obligation or hard sell, and on qualifying purchases, up to $25,000 in bonus silver. So, you've been on the case for 79 years. Yeah? Close? More than that. Well, since then, yes, I was 10 at the time. Yeah. Well, speaking of 47, that's Roswell's year. Do you have, I think you have, you have, we're going to get some controversial opinions today from you, which is fun. Yeah. So, what about Roswell? Was that, I never heard you say aliens, really, in any of your talks. What's the question? Was Roswell, was that a crash retrieval? Or was that a weather balloon? No. I think the answer to both is probably no, but, and this, I can argue Roswell, either way, one of the problems in setting, you get in however deep you go. The data never all fit into neat pockets. But I can make a strong case of an A that an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt. Remember, Roswell did not really become a thing until much, much later. Bill Moore's book, maybe in '19. Well, I understand Friedman and those guys. Yeah. So, for decades, you know, so you, it wasn't like it was in the newspaper except him, you know, the Roswell newspaper, of course, and that. I don't think there's any doubt that an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt that the government came in pretty heavy-handed. But what people forget now is the timeframe. I mean, we're talking beginning of the Cold War. We had just come out of, and I actually remember a part of World War II. I was a participant, but, you know, remember some of the things going on. So you have to remember the public tenure at the time. And this was going to scare the crap out of everybody, you know. And it also, the straight story, and with a lot of documentation to it was, remember, what's going on at the time? At that time, the U.S. is the only atomic, as opposed to nuclear power in the world. We knew the Soviets were working on it, so the big question was, when? Yeah, if they popped, you know, it changes the dynamics quite a bit. And so that they had very high altitude sensor systems. Now, they later went to seismic systems, which were, you know, better on the guppany. But, yeah, that they would have had, and it would have been super, super sensitive, and very few people. And I do know, I think Bill Burns, one of the TV programs that they had, he came in, and they laid out something material. And there were people, you know, Jesse Marcel, others, and there was another sergeant who was there, and they brought them in and said, "Do you see the same material here?" It was laid out, thin films, and all that. And the answer is, yes, and they pointed to them. And the point was that did exist at the time. It had most of the properties, metal with the memory, flame retardant, and all of that. Yeah, the leader told about, you know, you talk about the long train of debris. And what I was told by very knowledgeable sources was that, yes, what he had, these things were cut to specific angle, looking for certain frequencies. Again, we're looking for, as nuclear detonation occurred. And so, you know, that kind of material would have been there. I talked to Bruce McAvey, he probably know about this at the time, and he goes, "Well, if that's true, wouldn't they have found a screw or something?" Yeah. That was that. So, I don't know, but again, the case, you know, just dwindled immediately, it did not hit the public. Other cases, it came along, flights over Washington, and all that. Many more UFO sightings, it came along. But Roswell is a conundrum to me. Is it? Yeah. I think Marcel said, because he took the material home overnight. Didn't he say that it was writing on some of that stuff? He did bring it home, and I thought, Jesse Jr., also, was really good guy, and they heard him talk, sometimes. He only said what he knew. He was one of these few people, not extrapolating into bigger nights. He said, "My experience is 15 minutes." You know, that brought home. There's what we saw when they took it off. Yeah, there are others who have, you know, different stories on it. Of course, you get into the bodies, and all of that, and I'm hard to say. We'll get into some more of that later, but I can't help myself when you were digging around with clearance. Did you look into Roswell? The short answer would be no, because there wasn't much to quote, look into. I'm very aware of that and aware of all of the material. I never ran across anything in any of the files that referenced it or anything like that. Was 47 the year that the Air Force was spun out of the Army? Yes. Okay. That's convenient. Well, that's quite critical, as a matter of fact, when you get into the, like, the twining memo in that, which is key. In fact, the memo was to the Army Air Force. These things were happening. You may want to talk about MJ12, but these are literally being forms at that time. Yeah. I mean, I have a, my notes here on things to go through an order, but it's not going to work. My notes are not going to work because I have, because you bring, now you've brought up MJ12. I can't help. Get your thoughts on that. And what about Richard Dodie from, from OSI? I'm wondering how you feel about him. We have met, and probably, well, when we met, he was with the New Mexico state police. He told us the story that could not possibly be true. Okay. In fairness, they were guessing who I was. I was there with Scott and help put off. And they were guessing who I was and guessed wrong. And thought I was from DIA. And I was actually not retired. I had Los Alamos. And he told me this very fanciful story about, you know, a building I had been in that week. I'm saying, no, not the way it's built. And also a lot of the stories that came up. Again, we're now talking early 90s, critical here at the timing because gold war, you know, Soviet Union has just fell. And with that at land on a lot of other places, of course, we went into the peace dividend probably way too early. But the issue was that a lot of places that were, quote, behind the fence, no longer, you know, had guards at the gate, the gate fences were still up. But the people would come and go and whatnot. So, no, I've just, I guess I just in the last week saw a preposterous thing, come from SF background. And the claim was that Delta forests were specifically trained and equipped in mouse. And I'm still associated with that field. Sure. We're going to, but, um, yeah, not happening. So MJ 12, the documents I go back and forth also because I don't like the Bill Moore, Jamie Shander, a part of that story. How they found them in the mail, they found them in the archives. But the documents are still compelling. So where do you stand on MJ 12? Hey, that was real. Okay. That list is probably real. And probably had absolutely nothing to do with UFOs. Wow. So what would be the purpose of that? Just counterintelligence? It was something called COG, continuity. of government. - Oh, of course. - With super. That is one of the few things that I had asked Thelabine to what about, and he says we're not discussing that, so there were times when this was now in the 80s. But the creation of continuity of government, and now this became public knowledge, you know, when Green Briar, they found out that the Green Briar place had been had a big underground facility - Yeah, the hotel. - It was where you would whisk the government to, in case of, and it was to prevent nuclear decapitation and continue with the continuity, it was a continuation of the government which existed and have that. - And people don't know there's like a mini-con congressional hall in there. - Well, as I understand, there may be pieces of this still classified as whatnot, because you are still concerned about what happens to the government under catastrophic circumstances. - This should always be a concern. - Yeah. But if you look at that list, remember what Stan and I talked about this too. And he was saying like, "Menzel, for instance," who was a very anti-UFO guy in that, that we had to, that we was reading a double life according to Stan. - He wasn't he? - No. - No, I thought he had clearance. He was an asset. - Oh, yeah, but if you look at it from a position of something per cog, that list of people makes total sense, and you don't have to do backflips on any of them. - No? - I mean, you have nuclear, the people who understood nuclear weapons on that, I mean, this gets terribly complex as to what could be done, the amount of damage that was done, blast radiation, radiation, continuance, et cetera. Yeah, this, that group is the one, exactly, and Truman is the one who puts in place, and supposedly not taking notes and that, but that explanation fits without any. - It does, it does, so we're, so James Forestall, what about that conspiracy? Did he? - Which one? I mean, his death. - His death. - Yeah, I mean, some things, he was drugged or something, you know, it did follow his death in that, but I have a hard time making a leap, therefore, you know, some nefarious group assassinated him or something. - Well, that's why I like your, really, that's your whole thesis is, you've got all these great, some would say wild claims, but you're also a skeptic, I think. - Well, you know, I, current thinking is a little different than it was, and, how so? - Well, that's primarily because some of the people who come forward who are personal friends and who are very highly and located, well placed, et cetera, and when you get into the, quote, the legacy program, per se, that varies considerably from my first-hand experience. - Yeah, I mean. - And, you know, some, I just end up with, can't really tell, and I think what you had Jeremy, for instance, come forward, I mean, that's their whole thing is in, but the question I think is, are you tracking down what are UFOs, or UAPs, or whatever, or is your whole thing on, I want to crack the government? - Yeah, I mean, what does George think about it? I think he cares more about government transparency than, yeah. - Well, I was going to give this, but in my view, I think the entire approach is wrong now. And yes, the government does have data, but I don't think this fits very well with governments per se. I think that a better model, how do approach would be considered the human genome where you have multiple countries, and the major thing is sharing data. I would also compare it to cancer, because it's ubiquitous. It is, you know, many different forms, morphs, it changes, and all that. The government has a role to play in this, but it is not the role that you have, you know, many people, different government, and the problem that I see at the moment, what the government brings to the table, of course, at the moment, are really good sensor systems. And I can make a strong case for why some of that should be classified, because you don't want to tell people what are your operating parameters, what you can't see, what you can't see, and measure, et cetera, so that, I can say, on the top end, you won't have it. Having said that, this is a global phenomenon, and in my view, the government, you know, can't put it back in, put the genie back in the bile, it's happening all over. And now with us, you know, we have what rings on every door, and cell phones, and this, and the data is just overwhelming. I mean, police body cameras, you're seeing stuff, yeah, you know, some of this was on my list, but since we're here anyway, and actually let's, yeah, let's stay, let's stay on this for a second, because I, you always bring up slamansky, but I, but no, Henry, slamansky, you know, slamansky, yeah, you want to go to the martial arts area. Well, what I found fascinating about him was his MOS. The Japanese, the Japanese war criminals. He was a hangman. Yeah. Was that, is that still in the manual that I'm watching? No, don't. Oh, God. Again, you've got to look at the time. Now, when I worked for Slomansky, again, I remember I was a brand new E5 at the time. I had gone to Ranger School because that was the only way you were going to get promoted. You're coming out of Korea, so promotions just not happening. But if you went to Ranger School, you automatically got promoted to E5. And I went back and then I went to the Fort Campbell Jump School as an instructor, a 20-year-old black cat knowing it's saying, okay, son, you know, son, you know, these kids are more older than the names, certainly. And the ground training NCO was Henry Slomansky. And he was, well, his big thing, he lived in Japan for a long period of time, as well as hanging a few of the criminals, and had become a major figure, kind of, but it was a commissioner, I think, for the Western Hemisphere, was the title. And the big thing was that he had entered, he had been training, but the story was that he had entered a major contest. And this was back in the day, still full contact and all of that. And of course, a foreign foreigner being in there was not favorable. And then, I think, defeating 110 or 11 Japanese and really gaining their respect at the time. What was his system that he trained in? I'd have to look it up. I was just curious. I probably have it in there, but they had to hate him. Well, yes, and, I know, of course, one of the things, like I say, respect is when he whipped their ass, you know, and got some, I mean, they expected him just to be eliminated, almost immediately, and the thing, and it didn't happen, and ended up, like I say, more than a hundred about in the period of two days to get up there, so it's… A hundred fights in two days? I believe it was a two-day elimination approach. Wow. Okay. So, special forces… I want to know… He was a final child, not his final child, but he became a chaplain. That's right. I heard you mentioned that. In the hospital, in the hospital chaplain, kind of a big shift has happened with many of us. It is, but it was surrounded by death on both sides. What an interesting character. He would be a good subject for a biography, that man, or a movie. At Camping Camp Odeo, you had a Buddhist temple inside the wire. Well, this is a bit normal. Why did you have a Buddhist temple in there, and what did you, and the monks, talk about? So my timeframe again, this is '68, I was there for the 'Chet Offensive' and that sort of thing. The camp had been established and there was a small mountain, a small hill, actually, 50-some feet up. And by the way, this is in the delta. There's actually this area called '7 Mountains' in the delta. Most of the delta was perfectly flat and wet and they had these big mountains where major fighting was going on. And yeah, why the temple was there when I arrived? One of the main things though, my main interpreter there, we called him Mike, had actually been a monk for six years. So it did have some, you know, that was a personal discussion. However, on the top of this little hill, I was saying there was a small enclosure and we'd always have somebody on top and people were located in different places in case you got hit, you didn't want to lose everything at once. And I can remember, because we usually stay up pretty late on that and going to stay up and waking up, being surrounded by monks, you know, chancing, you know. Well, an interesting awakening. I bet, did you talk to them about consciousness and near death experiences? No, no, no, no. And these don't even come. Remember, this is '68, Raymond and Elizabeth don't come into the field until mid-70s, the first discussion. But before, I think Moody coined the phrase, but they were still existed. Well, they're, they have an interesting model someplace that, in fact, I wrote and published it in which journal, but it was that you basically, as you have events that occur, that's something. And that's kind of interesting, one, season, two, season, then you go out and then you find, oh, I don't know, there's really more of them and then you go out and then you find out, well, you see, there's huge number of studies, and then you do study of studies. And when you do that, you find out, oh, this started happening long before the, you know, zero patient, if you will. And so that's one of the ones where, yes, there have always been going, now we, you know, go back to Earth and Plato and things, and you find out it was there. He just didn't notice it before. I think it's a great resource to have Buddhist monks into, to talk to about that stuff. Well, they can say that was, the timeframe is lost by a decade or so. Yep. Now we'll get into Raymond Moody a little bit later too, because he's, he's fascinating. He's changed my thinking on quite a few things, Raymond Moody. That's, and Cooler Ross too. You mentioned Elizabeth. Yeah. You knew everybody. Well, Elizabeth was the head of my doctoral committee. And, and that's one of the strange stories, and I had answered some questions before, and one of them was, was there an event that they changed it? No, they're just so many of them. What had happened is, I was in a wee school in California, and they'd seen some tapes where she was now talking about near death experiences. This would have been 77, 78 timeframe. And she had come to lecture, and then there was a workshop that I attended on my, on my own. And it was very unusual in that about 50% of the people who were attendants were medical professionals. About a quarter of the people were like me, just kind of interested. The other quarter were dying. Oh, my goodness. So, from an emotional family, this is really an intense kind of workshop, very different. So, I had gone, I was stationed at Fort McAferson and Atlanta at the time, and I just sent her a letter that was kind of a, jeez thanks. It was very impactful, and one matter, because these do get emotionally intense, as you can imagine. Well, a few weeks later, we had secretaries at the time, and said, you know, you got a call from Elizabeth, her assistant. Okay, and the call was, "Well, Elizabeth is going to be coming through Atlanta tomorrow. Can you meet her?" You know, these, remember, you could still go out to the gate and all of that. And she had several hours there. Can you meet her?" Well, of course. And I was getting ready to work on a dissertation in a different area, but in behavioral science. And so she arrives, and I said, "I think I'm supposed to ask you a question." And so I said, "Would you, you know, work on the committee?" She says, "Oh, yes." I didn't want to get into models and things, but I mean, that's one of those events she had. Her other comment was, "Look, I know a thousand people in Atlanta, and I chose you to call, and I have no idea why." That's when I said, "I think I'm supposed to ask a question." Do you believe in synchronicities and things like that? How do you not? Yeah, well, I will probably get into generic consciousness sorts of things, but, you know, that is one of many that have occurred. And so you say, "Is there a single event?" No, there's just those that happen and happen. My, my probability throughout the military career is totally impossible. You know, you said, "Colonel, my probability of making colonel is below zero." Because I had not done what you were supposed to do certain things. And technically, I was an infantry officer. I spent most of my time on special forces and doing other sorts of things at two tours ever in the infantry. And so, when the board came out, I was getting ready to retire. So, "Okay, that's been fun." But, like I said, the probabilities are just impossible. Why was it so hard? I mean, you were enlisted as private, and I think they call you guys a Mustang. Come up Hardly. Well, when I went to OCS kicking and screaming. You didn't want to go to OCS? No, not really. What did you want to do? Well, by this time, I was an E7, one of the youngest in the Army, in a sergeant major position. I mean, that's just impossible. What year were you, did you get promoted to E7? '62, '63. I had to go back and check the records. So, you're only in six or seven years? Only about six years? It was fast, yeah. And there were a whole set, again, the synchronicities that happened that could allow for that. And, yeah. So, for me, certain majors were gods. Sure. Why would I want to be one of them? So, you want to just stay with the infantry, you didn't want to make the time. Right. So, you wanted to stay there. Pretty much. I mean, that was, yeah. More interested in special operations. And of course, then that they got promoted. I was a special forces medic. Because then in the operation slot, and then after OCS, there was a short time after that, the Vietnam was heating up. And that I went back on active duty and say the rest of the history. Yeah. There's a part of your story that that amazes me. Between assignments, you were scuba diving, the Bermuda Triangle, looking for pre-categorism civilizations. What did you find and why did you do that? Why did I do it? But this time, I'm quite interested. This is now 16, 9, maybe 70. Oh, so you're actually between tours? Well, yeah. The reality was at that time. And now I'm commissioning them a captain. They had been come out of Vietnam already. You're captain already? Well, remember, in Vietnam, that went. Yeah. It was two years to captain. So, you know, rightly or wrong, they say, "War, what do you get from motions?" So, yeah, I was, most of the time, taking any period long period of leave, you just didn't do that just because of the jobs you were in and whatnot, and so if you were going to be offered a few weeks, it was between assignments. I think that's where they're coming from. I think, you know, not sure where it's coming from, but I was going to Fort Benning to go to the career course, if you will, but I had time when I was from Miami area. I lived there at times, so, in fact, when I was in Vietnam, my family had stayed there, and I had also run into people that had done some pre-unique research into the Benning Wall, and what, in fact, Jay Manson Valentine is the one who found the area and a couple of, there's some twins that I knew, you know, hate this weekend, re-reaching way, way back, but had introduced me and had an opportunity to go out and actually dive on it. I have problems with the, quote, explanation that it pens or something like this, because it took a little, there was the thing, I think it was 1,800 meters long, and when you dive on it, you dive this side, it's ocean. Here are a whole series of rocks that are very clearly placed in there, huge and, you know, and you put them off the other side, it's not there. And you could free dive it, as we didn't need tanks or anything to do it, so, yeah, and another area of interest, even more so now is, I am not a fan of out of Africa for the invasion, and I think we're finding more and more evidence that, particularly in Western Hemisphere, our notion of history has got to be wrong, there were huge pockets of civilization where you just can't get there from here now, if you use the typical out of Africa approach. Not to mention, as you know, they go out, well, they go back to them, and then you go, and then you go, well, where did they come from? I was these little pockets of population there, and when you get into Central and South America, and this is much more recently, but when you go through, you know, particularly in Central America, you see all these mounds that are there, basically every mound is the temple, they just haven't been excavated yet, and we're doing more with light hours, you know, looking in, they're coming out, finding larger and larger groups, and I find that's true all the way down to the Madagrosso, I remember being in Eka, in Peru, and seeing the mummies there, and they were going, they said, "Where did they give you?" and they gave me the illusion chain, and then, you know, cold game, and you go, but you asked, "Why? Why don't you do some bitter DNA testing and things?" And the answer was funding quite frankly, but the more that we're looking, you're finding larger and larger population centers throughout, you get into the Madagrosso, for instance, areas in Brazil, and they're finding these giant roads connecting all these places. Yeah, they keep revising the date backwards, farther and farther. Were you looking for Atlantis? Yes. You were looking for Atlantis, so. Well, I certainly heard, you know, beyond the pillars of Hercules, there's the continents of Atlantis, and so that's sort of what it was listed as, can't say it was Atlantis, per say, certainly, and it was not continental in form, but there was something there, it was pretty damn vague, and no, I don't think it was fish pens or something like that. So there's no question that Bimini is man-made, but we just don't know what it was for. I mean, Bimini wrote it in my view, yeah, I do not see that, it was certainly man-made, and certainly not simple, you know, explanation of them way, way too big. Why do you think there's such pushback on the theory of a predeluvian civilization? Why resist that? Well, part of it's just generic history, and there's two things the one that I'm sure will get into, and that is literally worldview, and we've been kind of bouncing around the outside of this already, but one of the pure materialistic, you know, we're going to go back and get to the god-barticle or something like that, and the other that I tend to support is more like Max Planck that says, you can't get behind consciousness, and I hear the idea that consciousness rises, or the physical arises from consciousness as opposed to, you know, something we generate in a few pounds of meat. Yeah, I tend to believe the same thing, but I don't know who created it in the first place. Is consciousness here before the Big Bang? Consciousness is. It is. I'll get that question on that, and it's kind of hard to explain. And in our, you know, the worldview, again, that we brought up the standard review, of course, we're seeing a huge shift now between classical physics to quantum. My best quote on that was from John Feynman, who had been at Los Alamos, and he goes, anybody who says they understand quantum mechanics doesn't. That's right. That's a great quote. I'm coming up at a break, but I can't help but ask, did you? You were friendly with Ed Teller. Yes. Did you and Teller ever discuss Max Planck's theories about consciousness? No. I would have loved to get his picture taken his brain. We did do UFOs, and we may want to discuss some of that a bit longer, but, yeah, no. And, you know, had him over, literally over for dinner, several times, and because more interested initially in what's his take on UFOs. As he think. The quote was you're looking in the wrong place, and he did not mean by that in looking in the wrong files. He was talking about telescopes and things like that. But, again, we're still talking the time when even my thinking was, we're talking physical hard crap and we're crap playing around, but, and I had, by this time, had already had the advanced theoretical physics, and we've got in some of that. Yeah. We'll get into that. So, we have a lot of cases, and now he was interested in cash laundrom. He was. Yeah. What drew him to that? That's 1980. And, radiation. Radiation. Yeah. The cash laundrom was December of 1980. Yep. And, but, you know, I mean, to remember, just thing, radiation, the idea that people have been radiated in that, you know, that was, got some personal interest. All right. We'll take a quick break. We'll become back. I want to talk about the new mental battlefield. Okay. All right. We'll be right back. Okay. In 1980, you published the new mental battlefield, sent it to military review, expected them to reject it, and they put it on the cover. Yep. Who is the editor? What was he like? Well, no. Well, that was key. And, another one of these serendipitous events. Yeah. I was attending in the Command General Staff College at the 11th, not terribly challenging. And, so I wrote the article because I was interested in these various bird-shaped things. I guess how I had really didn't think that I went into remote viewing in the psycho-canesis. And, of course, at that time, a book that had recently come out was Psychic Discoveries Behind The Iron Curtain. And so, what is the Soviets doing and all that? He's gonna keep, by the way, I keep slipping within so be it. Russia in the wild, and I understand the difference, but most of my life was in the Soviet era. So we were very concerned about what it was, so I wrote the article and it turns out, and I don't remember the editor's name, but I got to meet him. He'd had a near-death experience and had been out of body, and that's how the thing got from let only printed to the front cover of the magazine. But the time it came out, I'm now in Washington, in the Pentagon, assigned to Department of Army Inspector General. And frankly, it came out a few other minutes, but however there was a Jack Anderson, okay, the Jack Anderson picks up on this and he writes the story, "The Boudou warriors of the Pentagon, you know, ate it off a lot called the Pentagon's wasting your money." And of course he was syndicated, so this went out widely. I got to meet the guy, he had written the article, I get the guy's name, who took that and wrote a book. What happened was, he said they got more response to that article than anything he had ever written, and it was 99 percent against them. Everybody was saying, "Well, of course the Soviet's are doing us, we ought to be doing that," and whatnot. And he actually showed me the draft article, which was written positively, and they just flipped a few words from, "Look at the neat stuff they're doing, they'll look at how they're wasting your money and whatnot." Fast forward, after that happens, again, literally in the balls of the Pentagon, this Lieutenant Colonel comes forward. And he says, "I don't know, did you write this article?" I said, "Yeah, don't you know the process for getting it cleared?" I said, "Yes, why?" And I had the file there, I don't know, but it happened to happen when I said, "What office are you from?" And he had been from Axie, he says, "The Chief of Staff." Part of it was fast forward, a number of years later, we were doing a spoon-dunting party, and the guy raises his hand and he's, you know, Colonel's mind. Did you write such an article, and I said, "Yeah, would you like to meet the guy who cleared it?" Well, he was there at the spoon-bending party? Well, this was an official event, so all the people there were military. But the point is, he'd gotten his ass-handed toe in for letting it out. He may or may not have known about, I think it was a grow flame at the time, but- Oh, pre-stargett. Oh, long. I mean, it went through several iterations, the same program, but his name changed in locations and things like that. It was all under Axie, the assistant chief of staff for Intelligent, and so that was the office who came in screaming 'cause- but this gets into compartmentalization where a part of people know what's going on and other people don't, and it didn't raise any flags at the time that it went in. Yeah. So you brought the spoon-bending parties, can you tell me a little bit about Stubblebim? What was he like in- I mean, did he really try to walk through walls and do stuff with the clouds? No, the clouds are real, and I used to do that, you can actually do that. You can make clouds disappear? Yeah. And what you do is, in order to know there was the right one, you've got kind of a chain and you've got to identify which one you're working with, hard to explain, but yeah, mentally you can bust clouds. You can do it. Yeah. How do you know they're just not doing that on their own? Well, that's the point there is, like I say, you have a series and you pick one and you pick it, you know, that one and the ones next to it don't disappear, yeah, and only the one that you're working on does, highly, I don't know of any scientific data that would back it up, my personal experiences, you know, we did that. So that part was done. One of the things about Stubblebim was, hey, was that very interested in the field and all of that. What was done on, generally at the time, is he was one of these people who was allergic to like, bee stings or things. And so he was going out to order read and constantly getting shots from, you know, from military perspective, it's not good. In fact, I got evacuated once on bee stings and Vietnam, what we call them, BCBs, but, you know, where you get multiple stings very quickly, so he couldn't do that. So this is a good Duncan thing, he says, well, if I'm mostly here or, you know, vacuum and the needle is mostly made up of nothing, then we ought to be able to interpenetrate without doing it, but I have no indication to ever run into a wall or anything, you know, like that. But he did believe everything is made up of mostly nothing. Oh, yeah. Well, that's true. Yeah. I mean, you think about him and just from a pure atomic level, I remember most of the stuff is not matter. It's space in between. Of course, so the idea would be to interpenetrate, you know, like this way, then it hurts, but if I could slip between, it may not hit pain receptors. So the spoon bending parties, were those stubblebine or is that a halk? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. But what happened, we had heard about Jack, Jack Halk, by the way, he was, no, no, the aerospace engineer at McDonald Douglas, and he had actually where he comes in as well, where he was kind of the model. So he'd heard about these things. So Jack developed a process where basically anybody could do it. And what happened was that we had heard about, he was coming. He was actually a contractor for CIA at the time, we're kind of probably spot him back and forth to the Washington area. Where he got there was, no, Jack Halk. Jack, a great guy, in fact, we got him the Dinsdale award for it, he was very interested in these areas. He had developed, anyway, he had developed a kind of a, what we call the PK parties or PKMB. And so some friends had him over and attended that and saw him, and that's kind of interesting, so I went to Burton and said, hey, you know, hey, this is real, let's set it up. So we had an event at my apartment, it was in Northern Virginia, you know, Laundrie of Polaris, or Poltland, very well, well, Laundrie of was there, as a matter of fact, probably don't know Ted Brockwell, Ted's key because Ted was there, he had his own business here. He was Rick Over's technical director, and he brought with him, Moan Bunman and Gaiman, who was quite an effective medium in that. So we had a normal thing, I guess I had, there was an ambassador there and some others, and we ended up, we were sitting around literally on the floor and kind of, you know, a quasi-circle and still not quite sure, but you start, when you start, you can use some physical force and you talk them through it and you can feel, most feel a perceptual change in the material and all of that. So we were doing that, and it turns out the hurt was sitting directly across from Anne Gaiman, and she's one, we get to the final, that's where you hold a pair of forks, match forks, you know, and no physical force allowed, and all of a sudden the thing goes, "Whoop!" and we went, "Oh, shit." Did you expect that to happen? No. No. No, when you, well, kind of hoped, I mean, that was human, but the idea that, and, but at the time, it happened that dramatically and directly across from him and absolutely no physical force, and that was, you know, off. This is real. Now, sometimes it's not like, and I asked all the time, "You've been before," I mean, "Hey, don't demonstrate," and it's more because of, and this is why we went to the PK party and we're, would bring, you know, the senior folks in, because if I bend it, you can give me a hundred reasons how and yes there are tricks and like they have trained with you know I don't know if you know a lot new he's a local magician here and that's kind of one of his sticks now however he does believe we got involved because you know he does believe that it can be done real but there are ways to manipulate it so the idea in fact in taking us to she bird would have love ends. NCOM is a unit around the world I mean and we supplied the people to the listening station of NSA and all of that. Now what's NCOM for folks who don't know? Intelligence and security command. They're now at Fort Belvoir there were at Arlington Hall at the time two-star command but you have these kernel-cut level command all over the world so they'd bring them in about once a quarter you know what's going on what are you going to do planning for next night and so periodically we would do it. By the way these were not universally thought to be a good thing. I bet not. There were a lot of people very resistant but his reason for doing it was not to bend spoons and I always used to get asked how you're going to bend tank barrels. In the early 80s already but computers you know that's where I think the vulnerability actually is but the idea oh okay but the idea was more doing it with his commanders to say don't disregard things just because you don't understand it because we had been blindsided. You remember Sputnik there were a number of Soviet advances that had really caught us off guard and you go back and you look and the information was there but well the classic one is one that you actually talked about a program that had to do with the submarines that was going monical as the one who had done that but he came up you know they had asked him this is the remote dream program now they had given him that case geographic coordinates it's a bit changed but and he says well there's this big ass submarine and it's dual hauled and the tubes are forwarded to the sail and a whole bunch of things that were different and they sent it to our boat builders and that bullshit right you know we don't have any information and besides if you built something that big when it went to depth that would crush and then the clothes part of it and the cameras came on now there's the typhoon class submarine yeah there it is yeah so with double holes and all that yeah but the point man it was always as Joe had out like but the his point was no we've been blindsided enough so just because you get things you don't believe now you've had an experience of seeing things that would happen like that it's a reminder that you know check check it out don't just just classically disregard it can we see some of the silverware oh yeah these are amazing some other programs what I brought with me is these are literally the actual forks that happen have tape on because they normally keep them stuck now you got to what what happens is that at the end of what we call the graduate school you hold them thusly and so this took place at Xerox Center and we had again the folks from all over the world mostly oh sixes if you will five's a couple generals and so I'm it's kind of a semi-circle I'm in front and there's two rows and these guys yell and this thing had dropped a full 90 degrees which I did not see were you holding it no no no this is I'll get to why I hold okay hold these are the actual forks but what happens then with a GSA teen a science advisor is the one who saw it drop these people young but I'm also frankly a little skeptical that somebody's not putting me on because remember these people are not happy right that we're doing this in the hallowed grounds but then because they just drops over it comes back up to straight up go back down and back to where it literally waived now that's an end of one I saw that once these are the ones and the reason I have them is the guy put them down and said I wish that hadn't happened I mean really scared him sure and because normally we when we do these thing people take all the stuff home with them which is fine and then normally that's what there were some other major bends that took place last night and whoever did it did take them with them you can tell us that's oh you can tell yeah but the point is because at the only time I saw Anne's drop that once a full 90 degree I saw this was the only one who we actually saw it you know kind of literally waived that as understanding because he was assigned in Europe and Sullivan was over on another trip and saw him said he did it once more at home and put it down and said never again so who is bending it with this kernel the kernel was and he didn't expect it to work he did not want it to work I understand that this is a personal you know scaring him now one of the things we haven't gone in the little work of the devil in all of these things this is a major issue I mean not to be taken trivial man as you know you get in the UF only we have the you know vice president now talking about demons that are out there at all but I had well when the article came out a number of friends that I talked to again I'm in in the building and they're going like that's the work of the devil we shouldn't be doing that and as a matter of fact the good rationale why the program moved from army to defense intelligence agency and had chief of staff the army well fundamentalist Christian and those issues have never gone away where do you stand on that do you think it's the some type of spiritual warfare or anything like that that's a very different question is it yeah is it spiritual warfare or whatnot I do think there's a spiritual domain that we're getting into and this is where you know all of these things come together it's back into consciousness and all of that but you added another word and that was warfare yes does that happen now one of my problems with many of the organized religions that is that they set up dogma well digress a bit as that could the Ross had been the head of my doctoral committee and was doing the dissertation she made me change one word that was from religious to spiritual made a major difference in the outcome of a thing and many of the people said I don't like the dogma of the church but I have a spiritual relationship with spring being whatever you want to call that there were other us who said I believe it's spiritual but I like the ritual of the church because I'm having grown up within that but it gets terribly terribly complex stuff it does I mean I know you know Chris blood so very well when when he was here I I asked him can anyone learn to summon orbs he said yes but you shouldn't I haven't talked to her been in touch with Chris since yesterday you know that story you know where should I tell it tell it but what had happened is that yeah he met me he had many men of Pennsylvania initially and talked in this long story I mean he told it but he can do hours illiterally and so I knew about the initial thing Victoria and I went to see him and we spent a few days and we went down to the Cape Fear River where that incident the initial incidents had occurred and so what got my attention well I already had was pretty positively disposed because I had seen enough stuff but we went down to the The lower thing right next to the river. whoever walked back off where he says he had seen going beams and all that. So we're at the car in Victoria and his daughter Emily get in the back to see the car and Chris and I are leaning against the left front. Hunter is getting just starting to get dark white light going on and he turns to me and said oh I think they're here and with that this thing pops into view and he goes zipping off and I saw that and there was a second against the temporal relationship between him saying I think it's here and now we've done a lot more since that in fact doing some competition now and trying to prove unconscious of the big one. Did you do the one on real real spitter? This was on beyond skin walker ranch and the incident that I think is truly phenomenal is that the split screen or Chris said and they're pointing off the UFOs or the orbs that you will over there. The second camera has the orbs the third one he's got a EEG helmet on and you see a massive ships in brain waves when he says this interaction is occurring. Wow. Easily quantifiable kind of it can't quite explain it but it does say that there is there are things going on and I think I can't say it's totally unique. I will say I'm hearing more and more of people who are doing something. I should mention Bob and Row and that. I wanted to ask you if you knew Bob. Well the Monroe Institute. Yeah well I knew Bob. Of course you did. But yeah what folks don't know is yeah he used to go out and do this too. Bob would summon orbs? Yeah well no UFOs. UFOs and by the way Elizabeth also was a friend of his. Had been down there and yes they would summon him in and see. See one of my first questions that I do on the UFO presentations is what do you mean? Because I got orbs you know little balls of light that are on. They got hard craft that are miles literally miles across and thousands and thousands of variations in between. That doesn't why I come down against the ETH or extra terrestrial hypothesis not because they aren't there but that's just too simple unless Earth is on the galactic list of bucket list of places that have to be visited or something like that. But there's pieces of that that don't make sense. But the idea is again it gets back to what we said before. Yeah it's happened and it's got the G but it's kind of all what's been going on. It's like near dust experiences for many families for years and years. They just never talked about it was something that was talking to family because it was crazy or something of this. I happen to have one of the most unique NDEs where you have physical effects on that. You happen? Well no this is I guess Task Force Delta was being formed which is different from Delta Force. This was a think tank sort of thing and they got introduced to an individual. He's not really I think ever come public but was unique about it because they told me that he was shot down. What happened was normally this is Vietnam story but normally when you went out at least in Paris. Well this particular day this one Cobra was out flying along and the Cobra you know you got the pilot pilot and the co-pilot lined up like this. They're kind of screwing around and they get raked 51 caliber and it's bad enough that Jim gets hit inside the leg breaks his leg and all of that the what happens is he described it to me is when he gets hit he goes forward the supposedly the landing or the controls are shot away but he remembers landing and now what happened though was there was no place to land per se and it was small opening. So they go into a country he brings it nose up so it's going to come in boom fact. It's going to be a very bad day over all circumstances but it's kind of a media race to shot because it's coming in like the what's key though is that you have no idea what the orientation of the Helicopter is going to be because the blades are still spinning which is going to affect the way it land so you don't know until the end of that. Well it turns out about a click and a half in front of them is a friendly fire support base and they see the incident happen. Well they crash it and all of a sudden out of his body up floating above and he's looking down and he can say here's the helicopter here's how it's oriented and there's the base in front of us and says this hooded I said why mail but he thought it was a mail figure says what are you doing here and he said those ones was well I want help for them not I'm in trouble and he says but don't you know he says no what you're not dead yet with this Jim sits up inside the back seat has already got out and he's running away at that instant he turns and he sees Jim moves or he runs back and grabs me so I thought you were dead you haven't moved since we were hit and he says there's a fire or a friendly base that's out over here I'm going to go for help and says no Jim that's no no it's in this direction guy insists no it's this way Jim can't move got broken leg his face is literally burned off oh my god it was now setting in and he goes no time to argue literally gets the guy to give him his pistol as he's decided to commit suicide rather than be captured so what happens is the bad guys come swimming in bed in this case relatively relative and then the friendly base comes in and they they find him but this is the only case that I have because they put him in a jungle penetrator and lift him up and he can say here's the helicopter there's the base this guy's lost and saved his life because before he passes out he's able to say went in this direction but the only case that I have we the guy physically replicates but in body what is out of body position right been um I think John McMonical said it was his near death experience that it kind of waken his abilities well I was also I'm a past president of the international association for near death studies and have seen this change and one of the things the interesting things that happened initially initially now we're talking late seventies eighties the idea was that this was a discrete event that happened over a very short period of time uh and the you know the mystical things happened but it happened within that time frame one of the things that became apparent in uh with lions was that no the people did gain abilities particularly psychic abilities precognition one of the main thing that we've got to watch but was that electronics that these people couldn't be around electronics that they could be affected by it but that turned out to be one of the unexpected issues that had happened of course the other was the amount of things that happened during this discrete integer you know how long you were out time just doesn't seem to count you know my brother Evan no no relationship on that really good but there's a case where he was out of um for nearly a week and out of body for a week uh well the NDE is lasted he's definitely in coma uh for about that lot of ingame uh meningitis and he has these fantastic experiences that have been one of the the thing about Evan I think was unique he was a neurosurgeon so he's one of the few people who came in and said, "I understand neurophysiologist." And no, the brain could not have been functioning. One of the aspects of it, there's many like that, and I recommend proof of heaven as well. Well, he's got several of the proof of heaven, map of heaven was another one. But he talks about being out going to these realms and he has this butterfly, the female that takes him around and all of that, turns out that Evan had been adopted at birth. Kind of uniquely, after he's adopted and moved away into the Alexander family, his birth parents marry and have other kids. So he has siblings that he doesn't know. He doesn't know who his birth parents are. He doesn't know much about the family or thing. He knows he's adopted though. He doesn't know he's adopted though. He doesn't know the birth parents or anything. So he gets in contact with them and he gets a picture of a now deceased daughter and he says, that's the butterfly. Wow. Did not know her or anything about it. It was really, you know. Did they give him any sense of peace or how did he feel about that? I don't know. I don't know if he was right. He's being, of course. This stuff starts bleeding into all of it and consciousness feels because what he will talk about is layers and layers of complexity that is hard to, you know, beyond our capability of understanding, certainly, that, yeah. But this was part of, you know, this is transformational kinds of things that happen. The other one in the case, well, we had jumped from Jim. He's not, like I said, not really go public with that much. I forget how I learned some mutual friends were aware and we were both in, like I said, this task force Delta. And how that came about. The other one that I think is, well, there's so many again. Again, you can search Ion's file. But another one I think is absolutely critical. You know, this is Mary Neal. That name Ringable or heaven and back. Yes. Okay. In her case, what's interesting is she's kayaking in Northern Chile in a remote area. And I'm sorry, but she, the last day, and they go over a waterfall. And she's an experienced kayaker, so it's well within her range. But she gets forced into it. Not the way she wanted to go. And goes over and the kayak goes in and locks underwater. And normally there's a release you can hit, but because the force of the waterfall can't reach it or anything like that. Probably underwater 30, 35 minutes. Find her body down there. Bring her back. Two guys appear in the assistant carrying her, you know, to the waiting ambulance in an area that has no ambulances. And then they, you know, take her to the thing. Now, she says met God being out there. Another thing she had four young children, and something no mother would want to hear is, "Oh, your son's going to die at 17." She was told that? Yeah. And did not relay that to anybody, like I say. And so about a year before she finally told her husband. By the way, she's a orthopedic surgeon in her own right. And they tell them. And sure enough, birthday comes. And he's out skateboarding in a different location. The car zigs to miss somebody and zags. And last time I talked to her was interesting, was that she said, "Well, there were other things that have yet to come to pass." That's all I should say. It's one of the last personal, but yeah, more information that had been transferred. Who would, why burden her with that information? Why do that? Oh, I would not say she sees that as a burden. Knowing that your son's going to die? I don't know if I can handle it. Knowing that we're going to be together. John, do you think, do you think about what's, do you think about what's going to happen to you? Well, I'm long past my expiration date. You are and you're still going strong. My mother died as a strong biological standpoint. My mother died in early 50s and father about 70. I'm long past that now. You don't seem too worried. No, I don't know. It's like all of these things. The incidents that have happened and lead to me going like, would somebody just give us the map? Right. What do you want to do? Right. It would be easier. It would be. An area that has come up more recently, though, has to do with pre-birth or agreement. It's coming more and more into Vogue that we made certain agreements. And you're going to be presented. You still have free will. You get on the conundrum of free will versus the predestination. But the opt that you can, you know, you'll be presented with certain things that will allow you to make choices and you still have a choice of which way to, you know, to go with it. But, um, yeah, I've always wondered what we, well, particularly the world as it is now. Did we really sign up for this? Right. I think, I think Raymond Moody's talked about it. I don't know if you know Michael Newton's work. He's talked about that life between lives and how we kind of gather together is in soul groups and we decide together. Like, all right. I'll see you down there and this is what we're going to do. You kind of feel the same way. Pretty much, pretty much. I had, oh. This is kind of an Odyssey kind of ship in the movie. But one of the issues was that the temporal ships that take place. And, uh, fun of Homer did the same thing when writing it. But, um, a way back. You know, it was doing hypnotic regressions. You were. Yeah. And, uh, you know, the issues are what's, uh, what's in between and, um, all of that. What did you see? Well, no, I was the hypnotist. What? Where did you learn to do that? I am a terrible, uh, terrible subject. I'm a control freak. Same. And I admit it. It doesn't work on me. Yeah. And, uh, I don't like you about. And if we're going to, uh, I'll wash go or things like that. But it, uh, working with the shamans. Um, but you got enough, uh, information. And, uh, again, a number of mediums and. Again, so a lot of the things that we had seen. It just make no sense. For me, with automatic writing, this one is coming to mind. Um, this would have been for it. Benning. So 70, 71, 72 timeframe. Working with a guy Charles Logue, who was a professor at the Columbus College. They're in, uh, I forget the. The college that they're in Columbus, Georgia. And they were taking night courses and. And they were doing some mediums. They were doing phenomenal work. They, they used to, uh, a plan. Shat. Mm-hmm. So it was like, you're, you think, but they have a pen. What was ball points in the back. And it would get these long, long messages in that. What was most amazing to me though and all of that. It's an interesting message going on. But this, we'd get this thing with scribble. I mean, just. And then all of a sudden, like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh. And this picture would emerge. What was someone's hand on it? Like a Ouija board plan. Yeah. Okay. And it would draw a picture. Well, it would, it looks like it was just scribbling. Right. Until the end. And it makes two or three moves. And all of a sudden, you go, wow, that's a picture. You know, the background stuff that I've been put in. It's certainly beyond somebody, I think, beyond their ability to. I'm going to scribble a bunch. And then, oh, by the way, a couple of lines. And here's this picture. What was it a picture about? I don't recall but you don't recall, we're talking about 1771 time frame, I mean yeah, as I said, there are so many instances like this. What deal do you think you made before what deal do you think you made come before he came back? What was your reason to be here? Like of common sense. Well, all these things happen to you. Yeah, it would be much easier if from the other sound, they said, here's the blueprint, I would go do this as opposed to, oh, you're going to almost die, but you know, but then these sorts of things will happen. I mean, I look at him, he and I, you know, some of the stories we're of, but I could tell you the difference between the bullet singing and the bullet cracking. That means that it's that close. Right, you know, and that was an instance where, for whatever reason, the guy who was shooting at me who was pre-damaged or because the second shot, well, that was already happened to be a jitter, you know, it was right online. And had he done what you should have done, he shoots center of mass as opposed to a headshot. He nailed me to no doubt about it, but that didn't happen. Why, you know, why can I tell you these things? And they only make more sense in retrospect. Of course. Well, you're clearly on mission still. I just wouldn't want to know if you felt like you were, but you definitely are. I guess speaking of Vietnam, and what about, tell me about project Jedi and the, and the experiment with the 45 cow? Well, this is back to Inscom. Yes. Yeah. NLP. You familiar with NLP? Nurell and Gwisting programming? Yeah. Okay. See, I had the two co-founders, Richard Bannler and John Grinder under contract. I'm working with him as a guy. You've probably heard of Tony Robbins. I've heard of all three, yeah. Well, Robbins and Grinder were working together. And this is when I'm working for Bert. Now, NLP was designed as a therapeutic modality. How you take broken people and make them better? And what frogs into Princess was the first book by Bannler and Grinder. And it was, you know, how do we make them? Now, in Inscom, our problem was different. It was how do we take good people and make them even better? And so, it was set up, like I said, it held them all. By this time, Bannler and Grinder have spits. The twins don't meet there, but Tony actually did most of the work with Tony Robbins. This is, you know, before Tony was done. Worldwide fame. Right. And all of that. But we, it was an interagency group. And one of the things we had in common is everybody shot something. Now, the other problem with the realities were, you know, feeling better. You can't quantify that. So, what we did is we, since everybody shot, and the question was not, did you hit the target? Did you not? It's, you know, you hit the target and blah, blah, blah. So, we got to, it was difficult at the time. 45 ammunition was really critical. But we went out and we could go, we could contact anybody as models. And so, we ended up with the people in the civilian sector. Why, you know, the Army Marksmanship Unit is kind of a deep place to go. So, we brought in the Army Champion, the Inter Service Champion and their boss. And we did modeling with them. And we did some stuff. First of all, things like, you know, why do you do this? What you will leave about shooting and all this and all of them, you know, shooting was good and whatnot. And you could protect life and there's a way to make a living and whatnot. So, we went to the physical aspects of it and got them, took them and shooting and we got them as far off balance as you could get. And they were pretty damn good. Even being way off balance, they had enough muscle memory they could hit. But, if you ask them to do a mental task like Hummery, had a little lamb, went to shit originally, you know. So, obviously it was more than physical and much more mental capability. You know, it's interesting that Tony Robbins and those guys were involved because do you see now how we've got in like business success seminars, there's visualization, there's people doing the cold plunges. Well, we missed the biggie, which is what we did with them. Well, again, the person we're working with on now, we had a day where in the morning, we taught people how to break boards, you know, the karate. That's right. He does that too. He also fire-walking. Well, that's the second step in the afternoon. We did the spoon bending and in the evening, we did fire-walking. You did? Yep. And the quote he uses, but does not attribute, it was mine. The question was, what if you had a battalion of people that could do this, and I said, yeah, you just have to tell them they're coming. Yeah. But it was quite a day. So, was this all project Jedi with those guys? Was this Jedi? Yes, I mean, kind of attached to names. Sure. That was not one of the official titles. There have been several Jedi programs that have come up, some of them official. We just attached it again. Remember, this is when Star Wars is at its track. Oh, that's right. You know, Jedi warriors are. Sure. Did you notice that your program went civilian? Did you notice that the program went civilian? Like, when Tony became famous, we did that. Yeah. Well, like I said, what he didn't do is attribute it to quote. No. Why didn't the military take it more seriously? Well, no, that's. you know, it's in the political aspects of it. You don't have to? Well, no, no. A, did for a while. Remember, this was which is not all popular. And you have the values of the big system, if you will. We were operating quite independently. We started a second problem project that was related. And this had to do with NSA at the time. Remember, Inescom provides the people who work at NSA. So yet, we're much faster. They were. Our guys were topping out normally at, I'd say, 25, 30 groups. Remember, the stuff code is sent in five digit segment bursts. And we would. Our guy was topping out probably around 20, 30. The super debts that they had were. Listen to the Soviets, their fists could get up to like 60 words a minute ago. But we had a few people that we had found inside that we're doing this. And what they call them was super debts. Turns out that what we found out was basically we're looking for the wrong people. We looked for smart people. And some people who had sent them the wrong question. The simple question to ask is, what kind of stereo equipment do you own? How does that work? That works because they hear better. They hear better. Yeah. And so that was really a defining question. If you were going to look for people who are going to do well in this or ones that had super hearing. Now, the other question we did have, though, is, where's the buffer of the mind? Because what would happen is they would hear these things and the thing would stop and they're still putting themselves. I don't have an answer for that. The question is, where is the buffer because this thing is staging and they would continue to write after the transmission does actually stop. And you couldn't find the buffer? Maybe you could now with neurophysiology, an MRI or something like that, which we did not, you know, did the assist at the time, little on. You know, what did happen was that this would get in the Army political. The -- Bert, as a two-star general, was in charge of INSCOM. At the Army staff level, you had the refugee operations, personnel, research and development, logistics, or three-star positions, and intelligence was two-star. And they said, "That doesn't make sense for any intelligence owners who are going to make it a three-star position. So there were two people that were alive. The current axi, Bill Odom at the time, and Bert Subbelbein, who was at INSCOM. And the fighting got really ugly. Some will know, we had used the Monroe Institute for training for some of the -- well, just kind of a generic orientation, as well as people doing remote doing work. And we had an accident down there. You know, people can look up and find the name. But we had a lieutenant. What happened was, before people went down, they came in from all over the world and they bust them down to the Monroe Institute. And they had all been screened, because we had a shrink that worked with us. >> Is this part of a Wayne -- Colonel O'Connell's report? Wayne O'Connell in '81 did a report on the gateway process from -- >> That's much later. >> Later. Okay. >> Oh, no. I know the report. Now, this is -- if that's '81, they had -- well, the issue I was getting to was the accident. So, somebody didn't show up. And this lieutenant, Badger's, Subbelbein, I don't want to go on, I don't want to go on, I don't want to go. And he goes down there and, frankly, cracks up. Now, understand that in the military, unfortunately, you know, we kill a few kids every year with tanks and things like that. Bad accidents. Well, I should all say, yeah, this guy I saw him wrapped off. He was bug-fuck -- sometimes just ranting and raping, sending the water, reading two, three days later, he's out. He's fine. Maybe got his thores in shot or something. >> Sure. >> But he's recovered, and he even got his clearances back and everything. >> So, he recovered from that experience? >> It's almost instantly. >> Did you need your psychiatrist at home? >> Oh, ever. >> Okay. >> And, you know, what happens is that it's about this time that we're upgrading intelligence that was used against Bert and just decimated, he kept coming back and back and, you know, he, frankly, got forced into retirement over that. And we were doing this weird stuff. Ed Soister came in behind him, who, interestingly, had no intelligence experience, or told you off, so I think. And his job was to clear the nest of vipers. >> Yes. Did you stay in touch with a stubble of mine after retirement? >> Oh, yeah. >> How did he do? Was he okay? >> Was he okay? It's terribly complex. He became a truther. Wow. >> Really? One of the questions that comes off as to the efficacy of using, you had mentioned earlier, when Chris said, maybe he shouldn't do it. It is not risk-free. >> Let's take a quick break and come back and talk about John Hutchison and the ATP. >> Okay. >> All right. Our audience knows John Hutchison's work. They don't really remember that in 1983, you were sent by the military to evaluate John, weren't you? >> I was wanting to pay them help. >> Yeah. Can you just start at the beginning? How did you learn about him? >> How do we learn about John? Well, there was George Hathaway, who is a double E from Toronto. And I'm trying to get the guy's name, who was with him, who was since deceased. And they had a small 16-millimeter film of a bunch of really weird things happening. And then he came down and looked at it and said, you know, that's really impressive. I wonder, you know, how real it is. So I set up a program where, you know, I was paying him and he was working, had moved in Vancouver. Now, one of the things that happened was that he had, well, he liked to make sparks. I mean, that was his thing. Okay. So he was living in an apartment and he had a basement lab, if you will. And he had band-a-graph generators, Jacob ladders and all kinds of spork-making stuff. And the story, although I understand there are several, but the one he told me was that he would sit down there at night and he threw something in the area and all of a sudden to hit him. And he threw it back and he came out and hit him again and he goes like, what is that? There's nothing there. Now, the other problem was that with all of his electrical stuff, he was disturbing the environment. Now, remember, this was the days when, you know, TB went through the air and all that. So he was screwing with everybody's TB in the process. So they said he had to move. He's enough energy to overcome a broadcast signal. We exactly went together. He's just putting out crap. Right. Now, one of the things what he told me he was doing was that he would look at pictures of Tesla and look at what's happening in the, you know, his shopper on there just tried to guess how could he replicate some of that. It wasn't taking factual data. It was just taking pictures and well, if I put stuff here and whatnot. Wow, I didn't know that. He was just looking at the pictures, trying to figure out. He knew of Tesla, of course. He had contacted George. George becomes the saving grace because he came over and did the diagrams of all the things are, you know, where they were physically related to each other and all of that. Unfortunately, part of it probably was the piping because he's in the basement and whatnot. He couldn't replicate that. But they said the, now this was Ted Rockwell came back into it again. Again, Ted was Rick Overs technical director who worked in nuclear energy. He had his own company. By the way, it also gets into interspecies communication and sorts of things. Ted was the guy who brought in the game. So many of these things, that's one of the things, how many of these things just intertwined in ways that are almost unimaginable. I mean, didn't you in the past? Didn't you communicate with dolphins at some point? Are you working on that? Yeah, that's the whole story. But we did work, that's what I call interspecies communication with the telepathic work. Neptune's helper if we get to that. So anyway, like I said, we've seen the pictures. We've talked to them and it's probably real. So we set it up. The idea was that they would recreate the workshop that John had in Vancouver. And so, you know, he did. One of the things that we did is I was physically at Port Bellboard at the time. Had a place down there. This we're working with Cleaf Boxter and those things. So we took a bunch of metal samples and cut them in half, put half of them in the safe at Port Bellboard and gave the other half for John to manipulate. Thinking we can see if there are physical structural changes or anything like that. Now the problem was John, no problem. Yeah, it is. There's no single effect. There were so many different things going on. You had mentioned earlier to me the anti-gravity. Well, there were things that levitated. There was no doubt about that. The one that I found really interesting, people today may not remember how late bulbs used to work with a filament across the earth. We had two pieces of wood and a rat tail filed, probably above, you know, this big across. And it is exposed to this field and it starts glowing. and turns not only white out red or you know to white hot and then drops. Interestingly they went in. A, the boards weren't burned. B, it was cold to pick up even though it had just gotten to the point where that. One of the many sorts of effects that had happened. Cold as in room temperature or cold cold. Pick it up. Okay. Yeah. One second and pick it up. The other issue was not all of these things were metal. I mean the idea was maybe it's magnetic, electromagnetic of some kind and certainly that's what he was using for input and that, you know, I think sometimes levitate. The one we had to remember was Alex Bizarro was the name I was trying to think of. They had in their piece of PVC and shreds one end of the PVC. But it wouldn't affect a person or anything organic. We have no idea what it would do. Right. I mean all we're saying good and this is the problem is no absolutely no control on any of the another one they did. I remember I told you that John was looking at Tesla's bench to take what's on it. We're also at a poverty level. This is before people are coming in and finding out that we gave them I forget what was 20k or something like that. It wasn't a great amount but the way he would get you would go to junk yard and pick stuff up. Well one of the things he fucked up was the drive shaft and it brought it in and exposed to the field and then took it the PVC hydro. One end of the drive shaft is like a case hardened steel and the other is soft as lead. It's the same piece of metal. All that happened was that it was exposed to John. So it's re-arranging the molecules? Well the point is you have changes in this piece of a single rod. It's not the whole thing. And this was true in all cases. But I remember in the PVC one the PVC evaporated. I mean it just wasn't there anymore. Now of course it wasn't in the sealed container. We could find it but vaporized and it'd be picked up. Again, John is there's some personal background. I won't go into it there. But these things were definitely happening. So one of the things that happened in the PK arena, they mentioned the metal bending. Jack Hauke had given me some molybdenon rods and these had been extruded. And nobody in the metal bending had ever bent the metal rods. So he gave him, so I gave them to John and I got it back and stamped it as a slight S-curb in it. It was just by being exposed to the field. And this is a very durable metal with a melting point of almost 5,000 degrees. Well, yeah. And we also looked to see he had somebody gripped it. Is that the piece you brought today? No. Okay. This is one that John sent me. I just happened to be able to have a lot of different one. But look at this. I mean just the the size and weight of that. And that's just from being exposed to his field. And you can see it's just ruptured. Yeah. And why and how don't know. But again one of so many different effects that you're that you're seeing. This one's obviously clearly metal. There was some that we had wood. We had others that were just twisted. We had you know some of it seem to be soft and screws through it and wood affected sometimes wood unaffected again totally liking control. Did you see it happen in real time? Short answer would be no. What happened was and our deal was what we were doing show and tell. I set it up and went up a number of times and I brought in a team. I had two guys from Los Alamos and three others from a one night vision lab and a couple from the inscom. They were working in the science field. So what happened was okay time for show and tell like so time. I do whatever you get there early right? Yeah. I arrived a day early and the they're really excited to say boy we've got you know the thing that was just levitating. So we've turned it off. You know we kind of say this is terribly this is a makeshift thing if you will in all kinds of uncoordinated way. And so I looked at we look at it and levitating we just turned it off. So everything's the same thing and we'll just turn it back on tomorrow and everybody else arrives turned it back on. The power supply burns up. I mean literally by the way one of the key things in all of this was power in. All of the entire apparatus was being run on one two twenty extension cord. As a matter of fact one of the naysayers that had been from limo ended up going to jail later for other reasons but anyway is the one who he says oh they've got this stuff you see the room because we had a single room in a huge warehouse kind of facility and this all was in one little cubicle of it. Well dammed as somebody comes in and we are able to get into them and know there's no other external equipment that's driving energy into this sort of thing. There's one plug to twenty maybe ten amp fuse. Yeah like I say an extent literally running off an extension cord which has had burned up and it turned out that he had no spare. They spent the day getting it by the way there's some similarities to this in the ranch and I know Jack Hock had also worked with John and that is you know this these anomalies so things happen. I think I've mentioned what they call the precognitive sentient phenomenon. This comes from the ranch and it knows not only what's going to happen but how we are going to respond before the incident happens but it is in control don't know what it is that's true in the right. We had the same thing you know I hadn't identified that. I didn't find that after working in the ranch for a couple years much earlier. And this gets into you know the trickster if you will which appears in folklore and that. Loki and Coco Pele and Pan etc. It has to want to be observed. Well but it is it can happen. Well the same we did at the ranch. The thing running 24/7 photographer and then things would happen just outside the same thing here. Jack had the same thing happen. It would happen just outside with the cameras or studying. Sometimes it would happen above this area we were in and Vancouver had a wood ceiling on it and then put stuff up there and things would kind of move around there too. So you couldn't define it. We thought it was a field effect but we couldn't define the field by any stretch of imagination. Did you grab a new extension cord? Nothing happened. No no the problem was the power supply that was converting it. They found one and we got it and no it didn't happen. Now I interviewed the entire team and five out of the six thought it really did happen. Now the sixth one was a huge not a skeptic. He was sent there to debunk it. He's the one who claimed that you know Tom Bearden. Okay he thought that Tom Bearden had stuck in for people who don't know. Tom was working on zero energy and all of this. It's part of the Sparky Suite story. But somehow he had snuck in and had set up this system and I was just total nonsense sort of thing. The bad news was and for reasons unknown the Lannel report was classified and so then it's out of the government's is covering it up now. Now, the simpler thing would have been to say we came, we saw nothing happened end of transmission instead of this convoluted theories that we did end up dealing with still in touch with John, you know, said, "Hey, I've got emails from him weekly, certainly, if not day." But never could get under control. And of course, you know, he's done any number of documentaries and things like that. Where you see the effect, and you can say we've observed something happened, but you know, and the kind of controls of how to go. And the most perplexing thing again was the range of effects that we saw. Anything else besides gravity and bending? Well, heat. And burning and not burning. And disintegration of material. And, you know, do you think that there are zero point energy projects? Well, that's quite different. Yeah. Different question. You brought up Beard and I, you hadn't. You brought up Tom Bearden. Yeah. Well, Tom was a truck, knew him pretty well. He told me a lot of how Mossad had invisibility, capability, and how they would sneak into his house, and the way he would know that is they would move his keys around or something like that. So now he is revered, not with the zero point energy, but in the psychotronic community. It was very interesting. The problem we found, particularly the scientific community, is he would give these very official sounding things. And then you would find out that certainly basic words, he was not using the same definition. We might use gravity, for instance, that his form of gravity would be could be different from the way the science traditionally thinks about it. Yeah. No, Tom. This goes back to the before. I think he came into the picture after the new middle battlefield or something. No, no, no, I know it was before that. Because one of the statements that I put in there that I thought in retrospect I would have been more circumspect. And that was I said that there were devices whose lethal capability had been demonstrated. Where I was pervercating there was that I really meant there was some insects that died as opposed that this wasn't designed to mean human. However, when you get into the Soviet research, there were some where you had a fatal experience. Sure. You wrote a letter to, I think it was the commanding general of Army Futures command, the commanding general of Army Futures. The future command, yeah. What? Telling him, here's what we found, you should look into it. What were you trying to get reopened there? Well, I wasn't trying to reopen, but I've run into this in several cases. I thought they ought to know what we did. Sure. And I had been contacted previously, but more on the NLP research, and so my thing to them was just going to be somebody at least want to know what we did. You know, some of the stuff is still available, and you know, I mean, I'll call them Kelliger, and it was talking to him recently, and he says that we're the mortals, and he's talking about Shaq and Hal and me and kit, you know, well, getting up to the problem with many of these things. Just the information is dying out, literally. Everyone's very suspicious of you and Hal and Shaq for living forever. We want to know what deal you made. Could you quickly tell the story about the cells, your white blood cells behind the brick wall? I remember you telling that story somewhere. The wall, um, it was a, the National Academy was reviewing some of your work. Oh, remember that? In great detail. All right. Um, this gets the work of Cleve Baxter. Cleve was a polygrapher. He actually designed the system. Well, this goes back in World War II. We had, um, he was in CIC, Counterintelligence Corps. I had transitioned early as the development of CIA, uh, as they was a polygrapher, and he was very, it was big in astrology, by the way, as well. But, um, what he was then initially living in New York, and he had a very basic question. He had a large plant there and he says, well, I wonder if I pour water into the plant, how long will it take it to show up in the leaves? So he put his GSR sensor on that and whatever happened. But then he left it on. I just was just running in his apartment and that and suddenly started noticing every once it was hooked up to the polygrap. So it was getting signal. Everyone's mild. You'd see a signal from the plant. Yeah. Okay. Well, oh, it's time to move. But the question is, why is this happening? So finally, he just spawned out that there was a connection between what was going on in the environment and the plant. So he started by doing things like ripping the plant and you see the thing, and then he'd burned the plant and then he found out that by thinking about burning it, threatening to burn the plant and the plant's responding, he calls this primary perception. Well, this is another word Ted Rockwell comes back in as an introductory point. So anyway, I'm trying to think of what all of the sequences was put a while ago, but so Clea has now got his shop in San Diego and one of the things that he does is he starts using oral leukocytes with white cells from the mouth and they would use a centrifuge but I'm confused. So the device was that we have electrodes in the oral leukocytes. This thing is in a cage, very decage, you know, shielded and all of that and they would, how would the cells would respond to it. We found out, well, made it back up. He had done some work before that on things like brine shrimp and he had pots there and he would keep the brine shrimp and at an undetermined time, the shrimp would jump into boiling water and kill the shrimp and sure enough shrimp are responding. He also did some interesting work with yogurts and one because there's living organs and the yogurts. So the next step up was using oral leukocytes because it was now attached to a single individual and their experiment was that you'd have the donor would come in and then they would agree to watch a certain TB program. It was one where we expect some sort of violent thing but you don't know when or what the event is going to be and sure enough you started seeing because they would tape the program and then put it with it and you'd see a violent event occurs. The thing starts you know, reflecting from the leukocytes. Yeah. Okay. Our interest, you gotta remember, you know, the red brigade and general doger is captured. So we had people that were known and the question is, you know, can we communicate or can we start with simple things alive or not alive? Now I had in military perspective looked at this too and the idea was you'll put capsules in or something, you know, like a transplant. The response was probably not a good idea because if it's suspected, they'll just cut until they find it. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So that wasn't, but however, you know, now looking at it from externally saying, you know, can we either communicate or can we just get an idea of life or not? So that was the Generals of looking at it from a military perspective and why. What happened? I had done a series. Well, I had cleave under contract. Interesting side story here. A way built my own device. It was interesting. I took a senior scientist from Night Vision Lab with me out there and said, you know, this is with permission. So, you know, I'm not stealing anything from him. And we look at it and said, well, can you build it? He says, yeah, it's pretty straightforward. But he says, look, I have cut this much out of the world for me. And you can reorganize things in there. But don't tell me I have to relearn physics because I don't want to hear that. Pretty straightforward, honest. Now, he could have screwed me in any number of ways, you know, just one loose wire or something. But he didn't. And you said, there's a piece missing. And I said, well, that's the piece I'm going to worry about. This is the consciousness aspect of it. So anyway, we ran a series of experiments with this. Fast forward a bit. It must be 87 time frame. Max Thurman is the vice chief of staff of the Army. And he decides to look into all this weirdness. So he puts together a scientific panel from the National Research Council to evaluate all of these things. I appeared before him several times. In fact, one of the things that bothered me is they had a whole series of behavioral scientists. And I don't know if you know Bob John from Princeton. Okay. J.H. and John, he is the dean. Well, then the dean of School of Engineering at Princeton, who is a central figure in all of this because he had independently replicated, you know, that was doing the remote during experiments. And he had a big thing on psychocanesis and all of that. Impeccable credentials and whatnot. And we had tried to get Bob, you know, added to it, you know, my admonitions were the good, the nice guys, but you know, we're the physical scientists because that's where the experimentation is going. They did have Ray Hyman out there, if you know, Ray, and all of the audience founding members of psychops, you know, the skeptics and whatnot. Well, a bit of a side. He came to me. He actually had clearances of an all the secret, but it came and looked at stuff I had in the safe. But this time, I'm director of advanced system concepts for what was then the Army laboratory command no longer exists. But I had some stuff in the safe. I was able to show them the Soviet work and all that. And of course, then they're asking experiment, well, one of the controls when I said, you understand how we, this is from Spire. Right. We are not getting their reports or something on it. This comment was, I didn't realize there was so much. There's so much. But so with the report, this is, this committee has set up National Research Council. And I suggested that we take them to Cleveland because that is pre-demorable. By the way, one of the things that had happened, as I thought, was interesting, was that, as I said, he was a polygrapher. So we set up an experiment with me and said, okay, well, what I found was I could beat the polygrap, couldn't beat the white cells. You couldn't beat those. Yeah. And I let them scroll around a bit, you know, when there's personal matters and things like that. I don't know. So that was really interesting. It shows the connection, even though my white cells are separated in another room and shielded, et cetera. And you were affecting the blood cells? Yeah. Well, I was doing, you know, I'm an animal one, but I was, you know, trying to see what the limits would be. And so, by the way, back to your futures, command. This is what I was trying to say. We did this stuff. Well, somebody come and look at least, you know, check the records. So anyway, we set up, and the board is going to meet in San Diego. So I said, well, good thing. We'll take them to Cleveland. So what happens is, again, you want to know who's working today, not at work, yesterday. So I arrived several hours early. Well, I've been, I was already arrived in San Diego, but arrived at I donate cells just to make sure this thing is up and running. And frankly, we forget about it. And so what happens is the panel arrives. And we take two of their people, go with Steve White, the lab assistant, and they're going to donate the cells. One's, one's donate, one's observing. And we take the rest of them to the classroom basically. And we've agreed that Cleveland is going to give the background in history. I'm going to get up and say, by the way, I've independently replicated this. And here's the, now, Cleveland is one of these people when you say, what time of the, you get the history of chronometers. And he was going on, on. I'm going like, God, I can tell they're getting edgy and whatnot. So finally, it comes my turn to tell them that the world is not built the way they think it is. So I start talking about 90 seconds later. They run in the rooms. It's what happened 90 seconds ago. And I said, well, that's when I started talking to them. And internally, yes, I'm saying telling the National Academy of Science, the, you know, the review was wrong. Right. It was emotionally stimulated. Yes. And so anyway, we go over. And we see, I mean, this thing, he has stoppers on, we're getting a ton of millibold, but it is just, by the way, I've got this tape. Oh, you did. Oh, I still, yeah, what happened is that Ray Hyman is one of the ran over and looked and ripped it off. Now, what's interesting is when the report comes out, not a word on this. No. Yeah. The only thing that they thought was useful or potentially useful, can they have looked at remote viewing. I know they had been, but they had been curtailed. Most of the classified stuff was not available to them in that. And, but they had agreed that NLP had some potentially some, some use. But the rest of the stuff we were doing were just nonsense. And I say on this particular area, it doesn't, yeah, not a word about it. It happened right in, you know, the white crow flew right in front of you. And CIA was an interest in this was CIA interested. Well, I mean, I knew cat and that, but these are all, and once you find out into, in this, by the way, gets deeply into the UFO area, a lot, a lot more of its personal interest. And people will say, you know, if you'll know the certain names, keep they do recurring throughout, even though some of us have their reviews on it, but yeah, there's a lot of interpersonal relationships that become key and all of these things. Well, we were not publishing, you know, reports on this as film, what you'd call basic research on there, but we definitely showed the efficacy of it and a relationship that could be tailored at a distance between the cells and, again, from the issue of thinking of going is, you know, there's something we can do with foreign diplomats for instance, where we keep some kind of sample on hand. And if something happens, you pull it out and, you know, try to communicate. Again, simple things like, are you live or dead? And which would change a lot of, you know, what your response would be, you know, willing to risk. Because your cells were 20 miles away, weren't they? Well, there is one instance. It was more like 50. And, uh, now I ask Clee about it. And he says, the problem is that you really probably can't tell because you'd have to get almost into interstellar distances. I mean, you know, particles and whatnot. What's the distance thing? Because we're dealing with things on speed and whatnot. By the way, getting back to Chris, the experiment that was done with him, you know, in Donut Monroe, in a sealed unit, and yet he's doing, which I think shows that this isn't electromagnetic, you know, the consciousness. But this is, you know, we don't understand a lot more than we do understand in these areas. Like I said, what happened after that is when the shit hit the fan back with, you know, and Bert was forced into retirement and all of that. So a lot of it was curtailed, and we bipers went to other areas. Well, speaking of UFOs, can you talk about advanced theoretical physics and what you're, what you're doing there? Well, you know, I had put together a group. Well, interagency group, or my initial hypothesis, I was working with another guy who has kind of faded out and doesn't want to be named them. But when somebody who worked at Lockheed Skunkwork, the hypothesis was a Roswell's reel that there was something big going on, and this is something that still emerges that people want to get the word out. So we put the group together, and it was at the TSSC High level, literally old boys, had to know them, had almost all of the intelligence community, the major player, certainly. And the aerospace industry, and people who were interested and got together, and we're using BDM facilities, interesting, they got to, the Joe Batic was the BDM, Bert, by the way, and he also, because he, when he retired, he went and it became a vice president for intelligence at BDM. So we had their facilities and we could, had put it together, this is the early days of FOIA as well, and one of the things that surprised people who created FOIA was the number of requests that they got for UFOs. So that's why I came up with a name in advance, I think nobody's going to ask for. You were dodging FOIA? Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, let's see where this goes, we had several meetings, by the way, one requirement that did not hold was no records. So the intent was that there wouldn't be any written records. Now eventually I had briefings that I used from on and on. Is this declassified? Oh, this is declassified by now, yeah. This is declassified? It never was classified. Never was classified. Well, yeah, like I say, this is not official. Right. By the way, one of the things that I point out, this is according to, and if you see with ASAP and ATIP and that, most of these come from the bottom up. This is not ones where, you know, the hierarchy says, do this and it comes down, but probably getting into some of the people that were involved, but it was, you know, so we said for supposition was, if we do this, it's certainly going to get noticed at some point and people coming to slap our hands and say, don't do that, which never did happen. What was, when you spun up that group, what were you trying to find? Well, A, we were still dealing with hard craft kinds of things that were going on and who would be involved and, you know, if there was a project. Now, I eventually, I moved up to food chain, higher and higher and I did brief or interact with the director or deputy director of all of those three liter agencies. And the story I tell, one of the most interesting ones, the global agency and, by the way, the answer was always the same, what we don't do that. And then, but the guy says, A, we don't do that, there's no requirements to even report on it, B, I'll tell you about the ones I saw. So here's the guy who's now head of agency, lots of resources, has had personal experience and he went back into things that he had seen years before, so they were flying around doing things I knew we didn't have the capability for, but that did not transition to his son. So I'll put together a small group to go look for it, but these are the kinds of things that run counter to the, quote, legacy program. Could they have lied to me? Quite possibly. Everybody, you know, and these weren't like a week apart going down to call and all that's what's happened over years. So you didn't believe in a retrieval program, I guess, until, grushing that those groups came forward, right? Until what? Until David Grush and some of those other guys, because you've changed a little bit, yes? This is where I get to, my data does not match, and in fact, you know, I've built with quite a few of them, senior folks, and I have not met Grush and respect him and his backgrounds and that. The twins just don't go together, and I've told you now, the agencies and, last forward a bit, we decided to transition to a formal funded program, so where's the logical place to go is SDI. SDI at the time is, you know, the biggest program in defense is five billion at the time. Kind of uniquely, a meeting is set up with me and I have an entourage going up. Going in and me was General Abramson, the three star commander of SDI. And my experience was quite different, and we walked in and introduced the agencies involved and all of that. And so I started UFO 101, and you go, wait, wait, wait, who are you guys? I mean, this, to me, is like a guy, dear, caught in the headlights, and I don't think he was faking, could have been, if it was, it was quite an act. Around the room and different agencies, NSA was one that the guy gave his stuff, and the thing that stunned me there was, we were giving him the Soviet data, and he says, where did you get that? And he was like, he did not understand our intercept capability. That got scary because it was in, you know, can they do that? Yeah, I think they're pretty good at it, you know, that's where this goes on an hour or two. We finally get to the end, and I say, you know, we'd like to get blessing in a formal program and go, I can't touch this. He says, if I get caught doing this, I will, you know, just lose all credibility in front. So the point was, I don't, in fact, he went on to say, look, you got my attention, I'm a little fighter pilot, and you got my attention. And we are soon going to be monitoring more of space than they've ever been done before. If you can tell me what to look for, I'm willing to put some algorithms in, but if I get caught doing this, and this is where, you know, the people who I'll say just do not understand the Pentagon, in fact, some of the key people, and I told them to take a decade off and go learn how the system works, because it is terribly complex, it is terribly competitive, and that includes in the black world as well as the white world. And everybody, I think it says, one of my favorite comments was, I'm going to go find the money when I was working on the building, and you go, there are nomes out there with pots of gold or something that you go, what means you're going to steal that from somebody else's program or point is, you have to reprogram the puns. And that occurs in the black world just as it does in the white world. He did lose a big $1. He did? He did? But that's from other. But the point with his point was, well, people, because his program was so big and visible. that everybody looking for money, well, word you'll look as people who have money, they're the banks, you know, and he did. And it was shortly after that, I got a very, I am convinced of a related call. It says, we wanted to move to a new assignment and it was one you had to be a colonel and breathe. And I said, you got to be shitting that. I am running the highest high tech stuff in the military and you want me to go do what? And, you know, word general still well came back into the program because he was a supporter. And we didn't cover this. He had intervened before another side story about how we ended up in the income, actually, and before that, was that the new mental battlefield article had come out. And I had attended a couple of conferences in the Washington area and weird stuff and all that. And there was a colonel's wife who was running one of them. Jean Eek, and she was friends with the general stillwells wife. Stillwell is now a retired four star who is the number two guy in the Pentagon. So what happens was a meeting gets something. I remember I'm a munchkin down and literally in the bottles of the Pentagon. So a meeting is set up because of new mental battlefields was to go meet with him. So at about 12, 30, this particular day, I don't know what's unique here. Munchkins do not go sea, sektaf, and deputy sektaf, without a headbop, or you know, flag officers who were there. That didn't happen. That was one-on-one me and him. Were you nervous about what is the general want? Or you knew what he wanted? This was just a generic coming and talk to him. But this had been set up again through the wives and all of that. So anyway, I went up and we had a very interesting conversation. He says, "Well, who do you work for?" I said, "Work for General Treffery." And he was the inspector general and blah, blah, blah. No, okay, but it was really interesting. Thank you. And I left and I said, "Oh, that was interesting." And I go back down to my office at about one o'clock. And about four, 15, the chief of staff of IG comes in and says, "Tomorrow morning, you don't work here anymore." That was that? You had moved me. So you had to take that assignment. You couldn't refuse it. Well, another war story, a friend of mine, who had worked at the Military Personnel Center. And I bumped into him in the Pentagon one day. He's looking, this is years later. And he says, "You know, I had to keep your file in my desk drawer because we had nowhere to put it." Right. You know, like I said, the promotion thing, and I got handed from the time, you know, I made a major on-- I was never assigned by the system again until they pissed me off. And I said, "Thanks." And then Los Alamos came along. And then Nidz came along. Can you-- Well, that's two iterations. Yes. That's after Los Alamos and-- So can you talk about that Sunday morning in your kitchen? I think how-- how was there? Jacques was there, and you get a phone call from Bob. Well, that's another coincidence, if you will. Yeah, I was working at Los Alamos. I lived in San Jose. I had a meeting with a number of people in. Jacques and Hal were two of them. I forget who all was there. But it's Sunday morning, so we're getting ready to take people back to Albuquerque for the flights and the phone rings. And as I am Bob Bigelow, I've heard about you. Are there any areas that might be of interest? Rest as I say, as a matter of fact, there was a guy who did get funded. He was there, Ferris Williams, had since died. But we got an independent project. Now, this is before Nidz and all of that. In fact, he came over, and we went to the Santa Fe Institute. Looked at it, he said, maybe he wanted to say, well, Murray-Gelman is kind of the guy at the Santa Fe Institute. And this is chaos theory that they're working. And I had other friends who were supportive who worked with them. It's not probably not a good fit. And then he decided, well, he would create Nidz, but he wanted it to be in Las Vegas. And that's what brought me here. What turned Bob onto Skinwalker Ranch? How did he learn about that? There were some articles. As far as I know, there were some articles that were published, probably in "Jazzarat News" and about Sherman's and the ranch and that. And exactly how he made contact, I don't know. I was with him the day that he physically bought the ranch. First one to spend the night. The first, again, of the Nidz peoples, I mean, obviously, Terry and Gwen were staying there. And it is a big, very strange place. No doubt about that. I mean, the incidents had happened. Having said that, I'm a bit of a digression now. I lost a bubble lure a minute. That's all right. I have plenty more questions. That first night, I think you said nothing happened. Nothing happened. Nothing unique happened now. But eventually saw some things there. This is one of the questions that comes up. By the way, it translates to Chris, as well. To one of the things I asked him, is it the place or is it the person? I was going to ask you that. And we have lots of strange things have happened around me. But as far as I have seen some things and all that. But I tend to be more of a catalyst if you will. Jesse Ventura is who I was thinking of. That's right. That he came in and interviewed me. And he said, well, can I go up there and go out? Hey, probably not. But you'd probably be bored. Because the problem is that these amazing incidents have happened. But it's not like every night, you know, they go out. Oh, tonight we're going to have X, Y, Z happen. Contrary to the program, one of the reasons they shoot rockets is because they got an incident. There's something to photograph. But some of the things that did happen are just absolutely beyond belief. For example, is this a baby goat? Or is it a baby calf? Well, the calf is one. What that particular incident is that Terry's got at the ranch. Terry stayed on the caretaker with the cabin season. And he walks out. And he goes out. And people are familiar with the ranch. Now, perfectly flat. And he'll scarptment to the north and the trees further out, finds a newborn calf and tags it in ways that they tag it to identify it to the mother. Drives across the, again, wide open fields, 10 o'clock, bright sunny day, et cetera. And he finds another newborn calf and he tags it in ways that they comes back. Calf one's dead. Mother's going on. It was mine. There's a huge amount of stuff. It's just missing from the animal. Yeah, it's been eviscerated. Ex-sanguinated, and where the tag was, was cut off, looked like a laser cut and all of that. The science board looked at. We hadn't Terry come in. Well, George and Net was working with us. It was a DMV and it was flowing up that day. We had Terry secure the sign, got our vet on site, and all of that. People said, well, the ex-sanguination of the blood went into the ground. I had suggested them they go to nearby Slutterhouse, get blood and come back and pour it on the ground. And weeks later, you would say blood was poured on the ground here. So there's no way that this went. The science board, the SAB, that, as you know, the world-class sorts of folks, and Helen Jocke and Kitt, and all of them are involved there on the website with the world, was that whatever happened didn't happen there. Wow. Now, how do you explain that? Again, we know the in our reality. We know the elapsed time, 45 minutes, each bright sunny day. We looked at all of the possibilities of how predators kill in that. All of them do anything like this. You had cameras on there yet? You had cameras yet? Not in that area, no. And now, I've got to say, Brandon, of course, has put in a lot more sensors than doing a 24/7, far more than we did. Not exactly sure of the sequencing on that, because we did have cameras that were facing here. What they now call the command center looking to the west. And there's one of the most interesting incidents to me. You've got two cameras here, two cameras in front of us, so the ones in front you can see. You have cameras that are up about 20 feet high, comes down about half a roll of duct tape holding them in, PVC going back into, you know, they're recording. So, you know, when recording, what happens is in the front cameras, the wires are pulled loose up at the top. You come down, the PVC is pulled out. There's about three-foot chunk of wire, it's just missing from this. Now, what was really interesting about it, this was kind of early evening. And, it just happens that the cattle at that time were right around the post, and we know that if anybody approaches the cattle, they would scatter, nothing would happen. The other thing is, this camera is looking straight at it, and we have the second or third time lapse photography on it, nothing, how did all of this stuff happen and not get recorded. Because it doesn't want to be recorded. Well, like I say, it's a very, very strange place, and they had, you know, many more incidents, but it's not like it's a daily thing, it's not like you can go on, it's like, "Browns and now, if you go up, you have to sign literally life releases and all of that to go on. I think those people, I think the staff, you know, people who work for him are really good." You mentioned something about pre-cognitive with the ranch. Does that mean that the future exists and can be read, or does that mean they can sense your intent? That's two different questions, and you say they. I don't know yet. Well, that's why I use it, and I have no idea how I was finding it. When you get into theoretical aspects, is it possible that the past, present, and future are all concurrent, so it's not a time frame, and it gets into almost imponderable. I actually use the blood one, because it seems to know that we would bore the blood and before this, it would become another conundrum. Yeah, more and more possibilities that just get to be terribly, terribly complex and it'll hurt the issue of what we do see in this, and I think all of these phenomena are that our concept of time is wrong, as we know it, as we experience it, as opposed to what time may or may not be. Because there's intent with these actions, but we don't know what it wants. She seems to want to mess with us. Well, but you mentioned something I think is bigger, and that's the issue of intent in all of these areas. What's the, you know, for people who become psychic or work with these things? Intention seems to impact and maybe precipitate reality. But then how can that happen in the future if it's happening concurrently? That's interesting. Any hitchhiker effect with you and some of this stuff? Well, you've seen my slide, I guess, and I think that's bigger. The answer for me is no, with others, so what people know what we're talking about. There are many reports of people who have left the ranch and start having strange experiences in the hitchhiker specifically refers to beings or entities or something as well as a number of psychic kinds of events that have happened. I do know that many of them happen, the slide that I use, and I think this gets to be problematic when you get to how are you going to study this, particularly from a government perspective. We start on this. I don't think governments, I don't see how they can be involved with these sorts of things. It's one thing for you to study flying saucers, widgets, even orbs and that, to study werewolves is something quite different. The werewolf story is real, the individual may choose to come forward, I have met him. You met the werewolf? No, I'm not the person. You met the person? It was a very senior individual living in the Washington area who had visited the ranch and white looks out and standing on hind legs in the backyard with red eyes in the werewolf. They go running off on bank length. I think from a political perspective, they would be suicide to go in, of course, enough to say I want to spend money to study UFOs and herd widgets and now we're making a case that's even permissible that it's one of the advantages that's come for is making it permissible to study these things. To now say I'm also going to sell the whole field of cryptozoology, column, for instance, talks about being a skin walkers in the Pentagon, but talks about a dinosaur, small, but a dinosaur walking by in that, and you've seen in the program the whole dire wolf thing, things that have been extinct for 10,000 years and so how do you justify or should is this the proper role for government? I think this is where governments kind of got a bomb. This is not what governments are to govern and they are to do certain specific tasks in that. One of the issues that you brought up in the other broadcast has to do with the Department of Defense. I think it's the wrong question and also what you have to remember is it is the Department of Defense. By the way, I'm guilty in this, who in my UFO book, I've said there are two major issues. One was defense, the other was air safety, but the issue of, you know, advanced technology and I can make that sort of case. The plus side is, again, it just has to understand how governments work. Actually, the OD would find this great because this is how you justify, you know, now we used to hypothesize the Soviet days, you know, what's the Soviet threat and all that. They're always projecting threats. Well, if this was a threat in a way that's good because that can justify funding. Yep. You need a boogeyman. Yeah. Oh, long was. We used to, we used to hypothesize what we call FST-3, which was future Soviet tank-3. Now, future Soviet tank-1 turned out to be the 290, you know, it did well. But if you looked at the capabilities that we were giving to 2 and 3, which means I need more money to do more research, maybe they can do the, I mean, never-ending cycle. But for them to say they wanted it, now of course, that's what they do. The Department of Defense is supposed to defend from threats, though we define basically everything as a threat. Is that why the Air Force was at the ranch? [BLANK_AUDIO] they were. I thought they were there for four years. You don't think so. Air Force? Yeah. You don't think of it, but it needs to get in the service rivalry, but I found them the most difficult to work with. On this topic for sure. Yeah, and then all. They would classify the words "electromagnetic." I ran into some of this between Kirtland and Los Alamos and whatnot. The infamous Kirtland. Yeah, not. Yeah. But again, with the problem, one of the things that I think is going to happen with Arrow, for instance, is my experience and well, he said, I personally had survived a lot of weird things and all of that and actually, and eventually got shown the door as well. This is not what you'd go on career enhancing. No. I mean, if you're going to move up any of these things, there are certain things you're supposed to do with gates and whatnot. This is not one of them. I do mentioned about they don't want to fund a werewolves. Is this a naming problem? You know, UFOs know UIPs, yes. No. UAPs change and it does extrapolate a bit in the broader phenomenon. The one he wrote up with Jeremy on underwater, for instance, and I hope you get Tim Gallaudet in talk about, you know, underwater aspects of this, which we've known forever. But the name fits better. UFOs did come with baggage. No doubt about that, because objects weren't all flying, but down side, though, is you broaden that too much. I believe Lou ran into this with funding in a tap because they were trying to do it unclassified in that and people say, I do advance threats. Sure. Sure. Yeah. And again, this gets back to not understanding the funding cycles are absolutely vicious. Before I get into death and consciousness, I just wanted to remind us that you wanted to read a passage from your book at some point. So don't let me forget. Well, okay, unless you want to fire it off now. Well, one as well. It is in the end, well, by the way, the first line that I wrote in the book is UFOs are real. So that's the starting point. The end is clear. The universe is far more complex than we ever imagined. We are not close to solving the enigma posed by UFOs. Rather, we are still on the front end of defining the fundamental issues and boundaries. And I just think notion that we're going to get quick answers or something. No. Or that there is, I guess, the one thing I would disagree with in the Secret of Skinwalker Ranch is the secret. And I would make it secrets. I mean, it's not that simple, whatever. Because there are so many different things going on there and in other places as well. I guess we're part of that same consciousness that whatever is doing weird things at the ranch. We're all part of that. Again, it seems like a dark force. Well, is it dark? We're, I guess, terribly difficult to contemplate is the notion of that everything is one that you and I are not separated. I think that one of the greatest illusions is the illusion of separation. But it's very hard to contemplate how we can be the same and yet different than I heard you mentioned the other one in the war. I'm dealing with some folks, young ladies now who are developing a program that they hope to raise consciousness in general population. And how you explain this in term, it is terribly almost incomprehensible to begin with is one of the reasons things I like about Evan Alexander's books on it is he talks about these levels of complexity and impossible for us. But if we are all one, you take Larry Dossi's, you know, you know, not non-local reality and come on. Certainly things like war make absolutely no sense however. And you hear this, you know, you're by doing bad things, you're harming yourself is just hard to rectify from the physical perspective that we live in today. I would also mention that you can look at the Greek. One of our problems they say the answer is love. You know, kind of what does that mean is that the Greeks had 12 different words for various forms of love. So, you know, that's not a catch all that's going to be useful. No. Tell me about that eighth night when you were in a tent in Siberia for a bunch of nights. Night number eight was weird. Well, actually, when we had been say, well, no, we were in Mongolia. And near the Siberian border, we had been up right on the where we were chasing reindeer shaman. If don't, what shaman's all over the world? What's a reindeer shaman? Well, the people that heard reindeer's. Okay. I mean, like we have cattle, they have reindeer. Oh, I thought it was something they turned into reindeer's and that or something. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, the people live with reindeer. Very unique area. We had the backstory here. We flew to Ulambator, which is interesting. You fly into Genghis Khan airport and say that Genghis Khan hotel and et cetera. And we flew from I didn't know that. Ulambator to Marum, which is a small city west, by the way, Mongolia is a big place. It's a three times the size of France and that. Then we got in a land rover, drove north for on a road for about an hour paid road. All of a sudden turned left and drove into the mountain, it was like driving into the Rockies without a road. And we did that for kind of a number of days. This particular incident, we had driven across country. We were living at a small tent. You know, and the point is we could turn it every day upside down and shake it out and clear it, and I got to pop up. There were three tents. My wife and I were in one driver and guides and the others. The whole bunch of other stuff that I'm trying to fit into this. Take your time. Whole trip. It was just an amazing experience. So anyway, this particular we had dealt with, and I would not shaman to have to look up the shaman's name. It had been with doing a healing thing. We had just come back. We had gone, shaman ball. No, boulders is a different one. Okay. He's one that we were the thing precipitates out. I almost brought that along. I do have these things. I keep them in the safe because they tend to disappear if you don't have it. Boulders we had seen going in. She then we had stopped and we had gone on horseback. The trucks couldn't go any further. We went in two days, two days in, two days out. Right on all the point here in Siberia, they don't even know where the border is. Right. We're not going to really remote remote areas. But we had come back and we were sleeping. It's just good river. Like I say, my wife and I were on and we have bed mats on there. Wake up the next morning. Lying between the two mats is a 50-pence Australian coin. You didn't bring that in? No. And I don't believe any people went in the night and threw one in or something like that. You're up on, you can say, near Siberia and here appears a 50-pence Australian coin. What do you think that meant? It meant there was a 50-pence Australian coin. I had no idea how it showed up there. What were you doing out in the wilderness? What were you looking for? the reindeer shaman, if we're going to get into it. My wife's a double J with Iwaska and we have dealt with shaman's over the world. This was a trip that was afforded us. Again, we're the only people, the only foreigners that are involved. And I had a guide who knew where they were. Now, you have to know where they are because they follow the ranger, the ranger going. And this, it was getting warm. And one of the problems was that they would go up and lie down on the glaciers, or small glaciers all over the place. They walked over them and that. And, yeah, we had to set up several ceremonies that were going. We're a UFO connection comes in. We got up there and they live in like cheapies that are all separate. By the way, one of the things that Chinese have done is they get solar panels and things. We get a little bit of electricity and whatnot. Well, it was interesting that they tended to be, stay in their individual cheapies. And I'm walking by one. And I hear somebody speaking English. That's weird. So go in and find out of the one. Well, she's native. She lives there. She used to live in Colorado, had been there long enough. So scared to crap, but turns out to scream to crap out of our guide because they thought she was a witch and could be witch them and what not. Why do they think that? The famous part of the folklore. Okay. I know it's the white file, but why it just doesn't apply in some of these cases. So anyway, I started talking to her and I asked her about UFOs and she told me a whole story about how this valley used to be kind of an alleyway and they would see them on a consistent basis. Now, this is an area where they're late to late summer, but get sealed off. I mean, once you're in, you're there for the duration, kind of like Antarctica or something, but you don't travel in and out. In fact, it was interesting because I'd asked her why you lived in Colorado when you're now, you know, living here full time. Yeah, I'd given up on Western society and that, but did say no, there was a period in which there were lots of UFOs coming to the valley and they would see them and kind of a routine matter. Well, were they craft or orbs? No, there were craft as well, things that they would see. Wow. Well, I think you hit on all those things I've mentioned earlier is what you mean by a UFO. Right. And addition of orbs is fairly new wrinkle to it and the question of whether you should and he gets into consciousness and orbs and all of that. But no, this was a traditional craft. Now, one of the things that heard you in Jeremy was what's happened over time is that you see, why do you see different ones and different kinds of things and going back in the 1800s with air, air ships, literally and people dropping anchors and talking and all of that. And yeah, that does seem as much, but this I think remotes to her, the virtue of this issue of, you know, consciousness, where's our consciousness has to, you know, what it is. And in my view, what it seems to do is stay a step ahead of where we are, but not beyond comprehension. Right. Like orbs is the newest thing, but another generation could be something different. So you're really looking for shaman. I've heard you say you've tried ayahuasca and you've not a fan of it. What did you see when you were in there? Oh, the psychedelics are absolutely brilliant. There's no down. Can confirm. I can confirm that. Okay. Well, we have dealt with ayahuasca. I mean, for me, with sunsadami, sunsadami is a religion based on, and you use ayahuasca is the substance that's going with it. We may get down to what we did in Quartiba in southern Brazil as well. Most of our stuff is in the Amazon, in the Kitos. They've also been in Ecuador. First of all, this is never going to become, you know, a recreational drug. No. The side effects that come along are significant, which is politely. And you also, some of the Koreans learned how to work with this, to guess the first few times that you, you know, are mostly, she, Gale, look at this, you know, the bright things and all of that. But what's most interesting with her, this is mostly second, what would happen by the way of these ceremonies is that I would normally, I've only tried a couple of times, I use it once, I know the time was, sunsadami in Brazil. But being the one who was not drug, I would run all the recorders because I have the manual dictionary left to the function with it. I can say that in my view, psychopharmacology does not address the issues that's involved. I have seen tea, people take small amounts and have transformational experiences. I've seen them take huge amounts and have no effect whatsoever gets back to intention and preparation. I do think that if you're going to, by the way, the word of caution out there, really do, if you're going to do this, know the shaman or with whom you're working. Because, yeah, and particularly as it was gotten popular, that there are some less than scriptulous folks, particularly for women, being in there of course. But you really do need, having said that, and I do see there are now talking about some on PTSD, some research going into it. Sean and them talk about using Abogaine. That surprised me a bit, but under controlled conditions, the stuff from Africa, that should get you if you're not careful. And one of the problems with all of these are there's no quality control. And I've found that each shaman kind of has their own recipe, and they kind of put stuff together and they look at me a lot. And the same with dosage, they look at you and say, "Well, just the amount you need." And I'm given. Now I would recommend going to like the Lucium or with a doctor. Yeah, well, yeah, there's not to be taken lightly, but I do think there are effects that, you know, and PTSD, who was it? This was life. She was there with the guys we do with Ron Huilock, who's known as the Gringo Shaman down in the Ketos. Interestingly, one of the few that have not jacked up prices and all that as it has become better known. You know, I was going to tell you, the story is experienced. The most exchange, she had a world that goes to and was recognized and whatnot. The most amazing thing though was not on drugs, but at home, you're in Vegas, and they came here. Who she saw in the DMT world came to Vegas? Yeah, well, right, wherever. This is a mental state. What did she see? Well, just that, you know, they were coming apparently asking for help. But again, this is a mental, that's just not a physical being showing up and showing there. By the way, the most unusual thing that I saw, we were at, you know, contemplate, okay, these are African voodoo ceremonies and all that and we had gone, I've gone several, but umbonda and and contemplablay or a couple of these are from West Africa that came over. We were in Corteba, Brazil and went to a contemplablay ceremony. No drug. drugs. And they started out and all there's about, in this case, there are about 10 foreigners there, their westerners. And there'll be 2,300 people who were there who attended these ceremonies all of the time. And so they said there was a priestess there that said, "Anybody want a jerk?" Well, Victorio always volunteers. She runs down, and this woman goes, "Is she's going down doing the thing?" And we're in the possession now, okay? Real full-scale possession. Your wife? Yeah. And all of a sudden, she's out on the floor spinning. We got photos of this. She's spinning. Now, these are people who were used to seeing possession and not the gringos. Did you expect that? That is the colonel night job. No, matter of fact, I'm alone. I was taking pictures and that guy grabs me. It's your reporter. I said, "No, that's my wife. She'll be okay." Okay? Yeah. And her description of it is stepping allowing this entity, individual bodies, who experience whatever. She has no idea of what went on during that period, but it was kind of okay, but it was really dramatic. So she doesn't remember seeing anything in there? No, no, no. This is, I think, allowing them to experience a human thing temporarily. Now, we've had other, we were in, probably don't know, Victoria, Brazil. I was down talking, just because it was on Leith there, you know, it had been brought down talking to the government, to their military police, and had looked up and she had found a Buddhist ceremony in, well, a Ombanda ceremony in Victoria. And we convinced our guy, he had an amazing guy with us, who was a special assistant to the governor. I happen to have had identity chemistry in that. And I also had a military police major. So we're going into the Favalla with, you know, to say we were greeted with skepticism, you know, true. So anyway, we go in and explain, "Who are you?" Americans, you know, kind of weird, and they've heard about them and all that. So they let us in, and the ceremony starts, and it goes on for several hours. And so they're going to take a break. And this is mid-now getting later afternoon. So our guys and they've got to leave. This, I'll leave. I'm going to, I'll come back and pick you up. And they came to Victoria and said, "Don't know, you can't leave." And it turns out, you know, people we've never seen before, who recognize her. Wow. Yeah. And we've fed that before, and we've had this in Rio, too, and someone saying, you know, here's the goddess to call, and all about. Pretty, you say, unusual circumstance. Yeah. Is there any connection with the DMT world and NDEs? Well, is there any connection? Um, there are those who think that DMT is, you know, understand, the method of treatment is the precipitating agent. It is not the thing. Now, it allows access to, I mean, I would equate it to more like it's turning, turning on the set, you know, and the stuff that you're now accessing that channel, if you will. NDEs, there are folks who think that you can't get a spontaneous release of DMT or something. Mary and I talked about it. She goes, no, does not believe that to be the case that is that we're spontaneously generating it and that, because that gives you the potential for saying we're talking about hallucinations. But like I say, her case is one of the precognitive years in advance and, you know, the, um, in general, I don't want to put in anything that suggests that we're dealing with hallucination because that's not the issue. Uh, now people interpret these things in very well, various ways. Um, the other thing I said, I was the president of ions for a long time and we had no staff whatsoever, so letters would come in and I would answer them. And one of them was, well, I wasn't close to Jeff, but that was out of body. I had this. I had that and whatnot. And you also with NDEs, most of them are spontaneous and you have no idea of whether people are physically close to death or not. I use Mary Niels case because underwater for 30, 35 minutes, there's no doubt that we had lost physical capability. I've heard this from a number of others. However, most of the cases are spontaneous outside accidents, illness or something like this. So they're not instrumented. Um, you know, the, uh, Pat, um, I'm playing on the name because there is a panel Reynolds is the name is the most probably most famous case in this, but she's not alone. And this is a case in which a young woman had a brain, aneurysm deep in the brain, uh, had some small children and was doing a very risky operation survival, 50, 50 wouldn't have done it except for young and whatnot. And the point here was that they had, uh, stopped to bring well, they had to, they drained the blood out of the body, but they had a statistical bond. So they're firing electrical charge in measuring the cortical activity of brain. You have sensation of heart, sensation of breathing, sensation of cortical electric activity of brain. By medical definition, this is not near death. This is death itself. And it talks about a number of things. She's one out of the room. Uh, big one was, uh, complaining, uh, they were playing hotel California, which they thought was inappropriate. You can check in, but you can never check out. Right. But awareness of it, but, you know, what everybody was doing at that time, uh, and then goes off and reach with hope. Just, it's like the one with marriages as the original, you know, awareness at the location, but then going off into others. And again, in different time, space dimensions, as, as we know it, there are a few others. Was it Barbara? Was that Dr. Barbara who was an anesthesiologist who similarly had an instrumented death where you can, you know, confirm, you know, what their physical state is at the time. And so therefore you cannot attribute it to hallucination or only, but I think when you get the transference of information that, uh, you know, proves out, proves to be accurate, you know, Bruce Grayson, because Bruce and I recommend his book after, uh, is one of the key ones. Bruce is a good friend, but he talks about the, what got him going as a psychiatrist in the hospital in University of Virginia, and going down the hall and talking to people. And then the person say, Oh, you talked to him, and you're the one with, he talks about being a spot on his tie and all of that. So you get, you know, externally verifiable information that there's not any normal means of that being transferred. Um, my dad had one when during an operation and he knew what was going on. Um, how, how it shared death experiences. Have you, have you looked into those? Oh, you can't not. Let me think of us just a bit, but and this has to do with the progression of NDE. As I say, we came into it. Um, well, ions was formed late, late 70s. Uh, we were talking about near that, but, and we would, frankly, and I never would have considered having mediums or things like that involve a whole after death communication. Um, they're now the rock stars at, at the conferences and whatnot. Uh, so you have had kind of a progression from NDE, you know, which is I'm going to share death experiences is one where there's multiple people, not they're dying, but that are sharing the experience and some of them continue on and the humans. And they talk about things like physical changes that take place in the shapes of the room and like another one that's getting a terminal acidity is an issue that's now arising. And sometimes you get shared that this is where people who have been mentally incapacitated for a long period of time shortly before death start talking to relatives and seeing energy. Even when their brain is diseased, like from Alzheimer's or something, they're lucid. Yeah. And like this is a field that's sort of evolving. So you have instant near death communication or near death studies, which is this real kind of thing. And these cases are in the millions. I mean, we're, you know, I was surprised that, you know, flying on and traveling quite a bit and you talk to people, you know, how many people say, you know, again, this gets back to all was there. So it's a matter of awareness and acceptability that it's okay to talk about these things and, you know, an openness of it. You know, at the time, ghost and any number of other movies and TV programs has now become kind of standard issue things. But, as you talk about this stuff with Bob Bigelow at all, I know that he's very, very into the field. Bob Bigelow specifically near death experiences. And we had Jeffrey Mishlove in here talk who won, uh, one of Bob's awards. Yeah, no, no, I, of course, I know job, known job to complications, he's lived here across town. Um, but Jeff had an advantage over everybody because he had been running, uh, thinking allowed and now new thinking allowed. So we had decades worth, you know, just highest quality, uh, people that eager to acquire him. Um, not quite sure. I, some of that would get, uh, personal stuff with him. I think if he wants to talk about it, he could, but he did. Obviously, um, he had had the wrench and he, as he came to, uh, an island's conferences where they announced it at the, uh, thing, um, initially, uh, the contest was not on a radar. Now that is something that evolved later. Um, but continuation of consciousness is something he's been interested in for a long time. Uh, you know, his, well, the first time I met him was at MIT in '92. Uh, John Mack was, uh, having, uh, and Dave Pritchard had a conference on, uh, uh, you know, abductions versus end to easing it. And that's where I gave the first talk on correlation. The bad news was that I was, had to go right after John and the tough act of act. But having said that, I first met Bob there, but I was just a handshake. I owe you what I did not know at the time was that his son had died like within a month, uh, before that. So it had had interest. I found a leader. How many, he went to lots and lots of mediums and very familiar. Uh, he had brought, uh, Dean Raiden, uh, end of the UNLV, uh, for a while. Well, there were the precursor there. And then they set up the, um, big, little chair of consciousness at UNLV, Charlie Tarte held that initially. And then Raiden, uh, came in, uh, for a while. Uh, bad news was that stopped funding it. And they were eating principal and eventually that, uh, ran out, but he's had a long interest and some personal tragedies that have happened there or that, uh, I'm sure, uh, driven certain factors. And, uh, so we decided to set it up and brought, call them back. Well, you, you covered this stuff for so long. Was there anything in your research that you believed and then turned out that you were wrong or, or the, or the opposite, something that you didn't believe that you were surprised it was true. Well, that's an interesting question. I, um, I would say there were a lot of things that I would have thought were highly speculative that I'm not willing to accept. Uh, well, we talked about the progression in NDEs. And in, uh, the answer to your question is yes. And that has to do with ADC and some things we're doing in, um, after death, communication, you know, Gary Schwartz, I'll be hopefully talking to him tomorrow. We talked periodically, um, but, uh, he was with, he's not retired, but the University of Arizona and, um, working on something called soul phone, soul phone. Yeah. Uh, what they're trying to do is to instrument the direct communications. And this is ostensibly with the help of some people that you would know, you know, by, you know, immediately by name and that who seems to be, uh, involved from the other side, what he calls team, hey, uh, is trying to, uh, uh, assist in the communication. But this is, um, you know, in the 80s, never would have touched them because that's, you know, got outside the realm. That's not scientific. And now, now you're getting the point. And Gary, um, I was looking up, he's got a number of books out of that, uh, on this and he's, like the reason we didn't talk yesterday is he was, uh, editing the book that is forthcoming on the future of soul phone. Oh, coming up on two hours. So I think we'll say goodbye, Colonel John Alexander. Thank you very much. It's been a lot of fun. You're local. So anytime you want to come back in, because we didn't talk about directed energy weapons, uh, non-lethal least, a lot more to cover. Whatever. We'll get it. We'll get it. That's what they're real world. Goodbye, everybody. That was Colonel John Alexander. We covered fire for shaman's spoon-bending parties for army generals, a werewolf in a Washington backyard and a coin that appeared overnight in a tent in Mongolia. The career of green berets lost almos to Pentagon. Well, that's all public record. But some stories needed checking. Start with the one that sounds made up. John said the army brought in Tony Robbins. Yeah, that Tony Robbins pre-fame to teach soldiers to shoot using neuro linguistic programming. And that's real. John helped run it and Robbins still tells the story. Everyone qualified it in a day. The army fixed its pistol scores with the future king of the firewalking seminar. I love this job. Now the white cells. Researchers wired people's own white blood cells to a chart recorder in another room. John's personal result? He could beat the polygraph, but he couldn't beat his cells. When the army convened a scientific panel to judge the weirdness, John took them to the lab. Two panel members donated cells. Minutes into John's talk. The man watching the recorder ran in and asked what happened. The report is real. Enhancing human performance. National Research Council 1988. And it found no evidence for any of this. The lab visit wasn't in there, so we have his worth. But the story that got me isn't from the lab. In the late 70s, John attended a workshop on Death and Dine. Then nailed a teacher, a thank you know. She was Elizabeth Kugleros, the five stages of Greece. Kugleros. Weeks later, she called his office and asked to meet. And she told him, "I know a thousand people in Atlanta and I chose you and have no idea why." John heard himself answer. I think I'm supposed to ask you a question. She ended up running his doctoral committee. That part is on paper. The phone call isn't. Look, I can't follow John everywhere. The werewolf is where I tap out. And I say that as a man who pays his mortgage with werewolf stories. But everything I could check out came back true. So the rest gets patients. And I don't hand out much of that. But John earned it the boring way. With paperwork. He's local, so there will be around to him. John's books are reality denied and UFOs myths conspiracy and realities. Both Amazon. Both awesome. And his site is johndpalexander.com. That's John B. Alexander. Everything I mentioned is linked below. I covered the Army of Swoonbenders in my first Earth Italian episode. That was about John Doe. I think he, yeah, I mentioned him in that episode. That's a fun one. Oh, that's the men at Staircoats. That's about George Queen who's John. You know that. I don't think we brought him up. Until next time, Be safe. Be kind. Another you. I appreciate it. We're then another piece of fear in safety It becomes the truth, my friends And it never ends I know it never ends I feel the crack at it I got stuck inside my old home With them chaos truck I've been only to a whore Do you stand, look, you've rigged back The moon landing alone On a film set, I wore the shadow people there There was willingly us just for the smiling man And I'm told, and his name was Cole I can't agree I'm casted with the fidget Pedal fish on Thursday, next week, day, day, two We're then another piece of fear all through the night All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth So the world knows I'm a piece of fear all through the night The Muffman side and van The solar storm still come To Agatha, the secret city underground Mysterious numbers, stations, planets are phoned To plastic stockade And what the dark watchers found In a simulation, don't you worry though The black night satellite is told me so I can't believe I'm casted with the fidget Pedal fish on Thursday, next week, day, two And what the night will be all through the night All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth So the world knows I'm a piece of fear all through the night Girl, it loves to dance Girl, it loves to dance on the dance floor Because she is a camel And you can't won't love to dance Where the feeling is right on the way With hidden time Girl, it loves to dance Girl, it loves to dance (upbeat music)