The Basement: John B. Alexander | Roswell, MJ-12, Skinwalker: The Colonel Who Was There

Olen Shannon Maldonado, käsintehtyjä artesaanitua teita myyvän jaujialahjakaupan perustaja. Valitsin Shopify, koska alustoja testatessani totesin sen ehdottomasti yhdeksi helpokäyttöisimmistä alustoista. Minulla oli tärkeää pohtia kehittymistämme tulevaisuudessa. Kaikki myyntiin tarvittavat työkalut, kuten varaston suunnittelu ovat kätevästi dashboardissa. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu Shopify piste komsi vustolla. Today we're sitting down with Colonel John Alexander. He commanded Green Brays and Vietnam, ran advanced weapons concepts at Los Alamos, and pioneered the military's non-lethal weapons program. He also threw spoon-bending parties for army generals, sponsor to scientists whose lab levitated scrap metal, and was the first investigator to spend a night on skim Walker Ranch. And none of it was a hobby, it was work. Today we're covering the army's psychic warfare years, the voodoo fire ceremony he filmed in West Africa, and why a man with a file full of things that can't happen isn't worried about dying. And at one point he mentions that he could beat a polygraph, but he couldn't fool his own white blood cells. That one's gonna bug me for a while. You confess to things nobody asked about. Once you wrap up, I'll pop back in and break down on conversation. Let's go down to the basement. Colonel John Alexander, welcome to the basement. Great to be here, I think. I didn't do it, I wasn't there, I don't know what to do about it. We're gonna have fun. I wanna start somewhere no one does. You're in a village in West Africa in the middle of a voodoo ceremony. Cameras are rolling and the shaman takes a fire to his face. What happened? No, it's much more than that. This was, we were attending the voodoo ceremony, and this particularly case the shaman himself came out. He picks up a flaming torch and puts it into his mouth, and you don't suppose it. No, it was really interesting. It was my camera by the way that was rolling. And at distance, like we're sitting right now, this is not a long way the way, and yes, it's hot. I mean, there's definitely heat. Got long chin whiskers that don't sing. Now, this was also went on, and they brought out two young boys. Probably about ten or so. And the shaman goes, this is passing the power. And say, well, they can't, you know, they haven't got the full range yet. But they would stand in the fire, sit in the fire, eat the fire. Yeah, it defies everything, you know, about thermal dynamics. I also, they say, well, they have some magical, you know, asbestos substance or something. Got to understand that these are people who look up to dirt and poverty. Right. Yeah, that they have some exotic materials or something. They did have a long history as to how that came about. But it just defies the rules. There's no doubt about that. What was the ceremony for? They're lighting fire. No, this was the, we were with a small group and they were doing it for us. But this is something they do all the time. Only the shaman can do that. Or what I'm getting at is, can we all learn that power? And that is a question that's hard to say. There's obviously a period of training and introduction. Like I said, with the boys, he was passing the power and said they've only got so much. We saw a number of them do this. The backstory is that this goes back to the days of slavery. And these were people that we were in Benin at the time. We were in Togo and Benin, but in that area in West Africa. And you know, most of the slaves were actually captured by Africans. And one of the things that had happened is that they had been captured. Most of the people were put in one of these corrals, which was then set on fire and burned alive. After that, there were a few survivors who had been outside. And they made a deal with the fire gods that if they would honor them in return for protection. Now we're in an area where if you believe the physical evidence we saw is they definitely could do these things. I mentioned that I had taken this to a local magician and the guys who deal with fire and say, "Okay, how do you do this?" And the answer was you don't. He had showed me the tricks of people how they do fire things on stage and that. Part of it, frankly, is just how much pain can you stand? How far do you go before it kicks in? But the beer's done cinch. That doesn't. Well, that's why I say the laws of thermodynamics should be if you put someone on the skin, you'll burn. Right. It didn't happen. Were you there on official capacity or just curiosity? No, no, no. This was personal and after I had retired the second time. But I want to point out one thing, misconception about voodoo itself. Voodoo, in my view, is not just a religion, it is an entire way of life. I mean, this is, you know, people incorporate this. A method guy there who, his job, literally, was to dream. He was a shaman, he had been trained and he would dream at night and come out and tell the village, you know, here's what's going to happen is what you should do. A long training process that went into that. He did say he had adopted one acolyte. I don't know who he is and the villagers didn't know, but it was training them to succeed him. But if you travel, well, again, throughout southern Benin and Togo, and probably in the Ghana, every place you go, you see the trees. And there's a white thing on it or a white flag. That means the doctor was in. And we were there. Actually, we happened to hit it on the voodoo New Year's Day. When we had massive numbers of voodoo folks in. And, yeah, some of the things we saw, I guess, one of the ones that, I don't know if you've seen this or not. Again, we arrived at a Buddhist ceremony that particular day, small village. And there were several people in transit with this one woman who was just totally out of it. And they'd take gunpowder and put it in her hand, and it blows up. And totally unfazed. And how you do that without burning. But definitely happening. Did you go there trying to debunk it or understand it? Well, we tried, essentially, I kept track of the guide that was in there. We remember when Ebola broke out. And interestingly, those areas did not have a single case of Ebola, although it was around there. And his quote was voodoo will protect us. Now, that's taking a big leap of pace, if you will. But, again, the evidence was it didn't happen, so you don't know did it just not hit that particular area. And of course, we have a new Ebola outbreak now that's occurring. Did that group, that tribe, have long life expectancies? I don't know. That's just, I'm curious about that stuff. All right, we have to do a little bit of the biography. You gave your first UFO talk in 1947, on the school radio in 5th grade. That was the summer flying saucer was coined. Did you give your talk before Kenneth Arnold went public? No, no, no. What had happened is there were a few newspaper articles. This was across Wisconsin from the town. And it just caught my attention as it was just becoming popular at the time. And I went to a very unique grade school. We were part of what's now the University of Wisconsin system. But then was a teachers college, and they needed guinea pig, so that was us. And we had access to the facilities of the college. And they would allow students to talk on anything they wanted. And then my talk, that particular day, was on UFOs. A couple of years back, the government wanted to launch a central bank digital currency. Full visibility into every dollar you spent. Turns out, that wasn't the real threat. The genius act just gave private stablecoins that same surveillance power anyway. 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You'll receive a free investor kit explaining how physical gold and silver can be added to an IRA, or for a 1K, a free portfolio review with no obligation or hard sell, and on qualifying purchases up to $25,000 in bonus silver. - So you've been on the case for 79 years. Yeah, close. More than that. - Well, since then, yes, I was 10 at the time. - Well, speaking of '47, that's Roswell's year. Do you have a, I think you have some, we're gonna get some controversial opinions today from you, which is fun. - Yeah. - So, what about Roswell? Was that, I never heard you say aliens, really, in any of your talks. - What's the question? - Was Roswell, was that a crash retrieval? - Or is that a weather balloon? - No, I think the answer to both is probably no, but, and this, I can argue Roswell, either way, one of the problems in setting, you get in however deep you go, the data never all fit into neat pockets, but I can make a strong case of an A that an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt. Remember, Roswell did not really become a thing until much, much later. - Bill Moore's book, maybe, in '19. - Well, that's Dan Friedman and those guys. So, for decades, it wasn't like it was in the newspaper, except him, you know, the Roswell newspaper, of course, and that. Don't think there's any doubt that an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt that the government came in pretty heavy-handed. But what people forget now is the timeframe. I mean, we're talking beginning of the Cold War. We had just come out of, and I actually remember a part of World War II, I was a participant, but, you know, remember some of the things going on. So, you have to remember the public tenure at the time, and this was going to scare the crap out of everybody, you know. And it also, the straight story, and with a lot of documentation to it, was, remember, what's going on at the time? At that time, the US is the only atomic, as opposed to nuclear power in the world, and we knew the Soviets were working on it. So, the big question was when, yeah. If they pop, you know, it changes the dynamics quite a bit. And so, that they had very high altitude sensor systems. Now, they later went to seismic systems, which were, you know, better, got me. But, yeah, that they would have had, and it would have been super, super sensitive, and very few people. And I do know, I think Bill Burns, one of the TV programs that they had, he came in, and they laid out something material. And there were people, you know, Jesse Marcel, others, and there was another sergeant who was there, and they brought them in and said, do you see the same material here? It was laid out, you know, thin films and all that. And the answer is, yes, and they pointed to them. And the point was that did exist at the time. It had most of the properties, metal with a memory, flame retardant, and all of that. Yeah, we later told about, you know, you talk about the long train of debris, and what I was told by very knowledgeable sources was that, yes, that what he had, that these things were cut to specific angle, looking for certain frequencies. Again, we're looking for, as a nuclear detonation occurred. And so, you know, that kind of material would have been there. Well, I can, I talked to Bruce Maccabee, probably, you know, about this at the time, and he goes, well, if that's true, wouldn't they have found a screw or something? Yeah, that was that. So, I don't know, but again, the case, you know, just dwindled immediately. It did not hit the public. Other cases, it came along. Plights over Washington and all that. Many more UFO sightings came along. But Roswell is a conundrum to me. Is it? I think Marcel said, 'cause he took the material home over night, didn't he say that it was writing on some of that stuff? He did bring it home, and I thought, Jesse Jr., also, was really good guy. And I heard him talk, sometimes, he only said what he knew. He was one of his few people, and I'm not extrapolating into Bigger Night. And he said, 'My experience is 15 minutes.' You know, that brought home. Here's what we saw when they took it off. Yeah, there are others who have, you know, different stories on it. And of course, you get into the bodies and all of that. And I heard it say. We'll get into some more of that later. But I can't help myself when you were digging around with clearance. Did you look into Roswell? The short answer would be no, 'cause I wasn't supposed to look into it, very aware of it and aware of all of the material, and never run across anything in any of the files that are referenced that are anything like that. Was '47 the year that the Air Force was spun out of the army? Yes. Yes, okay. That's convenient. Well, that's just critical, as a matter of fact, when you get into the, like, the twining memo in that, which is key. And in fact, the memo was to the Army Air Force. Those these things were happening. You may want to talk about MJ-12. But these are literally being forms at that time. Yeah, I mean, I have a, my notes here on things to go through an order, but it's not gonna work. My notes are not gonna work, 'cause I have, 'cause you bring, now you've brought up MJ-12. I can't help, get your thoughts in that. And what about Richard Dodie from OSI? I'm wondering how you feel about him, 'cause I. We have met, and probably, well, when we met, he was with the New Mexico State Police. He told us the story that could not possibly be true. Okay. In fairness, they were guessing who I was. I was there with Scott to help put off. And they were guessing who I was and guessed wrong, and thought I was from DIA. And I was actually not retired. I had Los Alamos, and he told me this very fanciful story about, you know, a building I had been in that week. I'm saying, no, not the way it's built. And also a lot of the stories that come up. Again, we're now talking in early '90s. The critical here at the timing, because Cold War, you know, Soviet Union has just fell. And with that, at Lano, and a lot of other places, of course, you went into the peace dividend, probably way too early, but the issue was that, a lot of places that were, quote, behind the fence, no longer, you know, had guards at the gate. The gate, the fences were still up, but the people would come and go, and whatnot. So, no, I've just, I guess just in the last weeks, saw a preposterous thing, you know, come from ASF background, and the claim was that Delta force were specifically trained and equipped and I'm still associated with that field. - Sure. - We're going to, but, you know, not happening. - So, MJ 12, the documents, I go back and forth. worth also because I don't like the Bill Moore, Jamie Schender, a part of that story. How they found them in the mail, they found them in the archives, but the documents are still compelling. So where do you stand on MJ 12? Hey, it was real. Okay. That list is probably real and probably had absolutely nothing to do with UFOs. Wow. So what would be the purpose of that just counterintelligence? It was something called COG. Continuity of government. Oh, of course. Of course. With super. That is one of the few things that I had asked Philippine, so what about, and he says we're not discussing that, so there were times, and this was now in the 80s. But the creation of continuity of government, and now this became public knowledge, you know, in Green Briar, they found out the Green Briar place had been had a big underground facility in the hotel. Yeah, the hotel. It was where you would whisk the government to, in case of an, and it was to prevent nuclear decapitation and continue with the continuity, it was a continuation of the government which existed and have that. And people don't know there's like a mini-con congressional hall in there. Well, it's, as I understand, there may be pieces of this still classified as whatnot, because you are still concerned about what happens to the government under catastrophic circumstances. This should always be a concern. But if you look at that list, remember what Stan and I talked about this too. And he was saying like Menzel, for instance, he was an anti-UFO guy and that had to, that we was reading a double life, according to Stan. He wasn't? No. No. I thought he had clearance. He was an asset. Yeah, but if you look at it from a position of something per cog, that list of people makes total sense. And you don't have to do back flips on any of them. No. I mean, you have nuclear, the people who understood nuclear weapons on that, I mean, this gets cheerily complex as to what could be done, the amount of damage that was done, blast radiation, radiation, continuance, et cetera. Yeah, this, that group is the one, exactly, and Truman is the one who puts it in place and supposedly not taking notes and that, but that explanation fits without any. It does. It does. So we're, so James Forrestall, what about that conspiracy? Did he? Which one? I mean, his death. He was dead. He was dead. He was drugged or something and he did follow his death and that, but I have a hard time making a leap, therefore, you know, some nefarious group assassinated him or something. Well, that's why I like your, really, that's your whole thesis is you've got all these great, someone would say wild claims, but you're also a skeptic, I think. So, you know, current thinking is a little different than it was and, how so? Well, that's primarily because some of the people who come forward who are personal friends and who are very highly and located, well placed, et cetera, and when you get into, quote, legacy program, per se, um, that varies considerably from my first hand experience. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, some, I just end up with, can't really tell and I think what you had Jeremy, for instance, come forward and that's their whole thing is in, but the question I think is, are you tracking down what are UFOs or UAPs or whatever, or is your whole thing on I want to crack the government? Yeah, I mean, what does George think about it? I think he cares more about government transparency than, yeah, well, I was going to give this, but in my view, area, the, I think the entire approach is wrong now and yes, the government does have data, but I don't think this fits very well with governments per se. I think that a better model, how do approach would be considered the human genome where you have multiple countries and the major thing is sharing data. I would also compare it to cancer because it's ubiquitous. It is, you know, many different forms, morphs, it changes and all that. The government has a role to play in this, but it is not the role that you have, you know, many people living in government and the problem that I see at the moment, what the government brings to the table, of course, at the moment are really good sensor systems and I can make a strong case for why some of that should be classified because you don't want to tell people what are your operating parameters, what you can't see, what you can't see and measure et cetera, so that, I can say, on the top end, you won't have it. Having said that, this is a global phenomena and in my view, the government can't put the genie back in the bottle, it's happening all over and now we have what rings on every door and cell phones and this and the data is just overwhelming. I mean, police body cameras, you're seeing stuff, yeah, some of this was on my list, but since we're here anyway, and actually let's stay on this for a second because you always bring up Slamansky, but Henry Slamansky? Slamansky? Yeah. I think you want to go into martial arts area. Well, what I found fascinating about him was his MOS. He was a hangman, yeah, is that still in the manual that I'm watching? Again, you've got to look at the time, now when I work for Slamansky, again, I was a brand new E5 at the time, I had gone to Ranger School because that was the only way you were going to get promoted. You're coming out of Korea, so promotions just not happening, but if you went to Ranger School, you automatically got promoted to E5 and I went back and then I went to the Fort Campbell Jump School as an instructor, a 20-year-old black cat knowing it's saying, "Okay, I saw him, you know, these kids are a little older than I am, certainly," and the ground training NCO was Henry Slamansky, and he was, well, his big thing, he lived in Japan for a long period of time as well as hanging a few of the cringles and had become a major figure, kind of, but he was a commissioner, I think, for the Western Hemisphere, was the title, and the big thing was that he had entered, he had been training, but the story was that he had entered a major contest, and this was back in the day, still full contact and all of that, and of course, for a foreigner being in there, it was not favorable, and enough, I think, defeating 110 or 11 Japanese and really gaining their respect at the time. What was his system that he trained in? I'd have to look it up, I would probably have it in there, but they had to hate him. Well, yes, and, of course, one of the things, like I say, respect is when he whipped their ass, you know, and got, I mean, they expected him just to be eliminated, almost immediately in the thing, and they didn't happen, and ended up in, like, as a more than a hundred about in the period of two days to get up there, so it's. A hundred fights in two days? I mean, I believe it was a two-day elimination approach. Wow. Okay, so special forces, I want to know. In a way, it was final time, not his final job, but he became a chaplain. That's right, I heard you mentioned that. In hospital, hospital chaplain, kind of a big shift has happened with many of us. It is, but surrounded by. Täällä olen jatkuja. Täällä olen jatkuja. Täällä olen jatkuja. Täällä olen jatkuja. Why would I want to be one of them? - So you want to just stay with the infantry. You didn't want to make the text. - No, I was SF Special Forces. - Right, so you wanted to stay there. - Pretty much, I mean, that was, yeah. More interested in special operations than, yeah. And of course, then, that he got promoted, I was a Special Forces medic, because then in the operation slot, and then, after OCS had been a short time after that, the Vietnam was heating up, and that I went back on active duty and stayed the rest of the history. - Yeah. There's a part of your story that, that amazes me. Between assignments, you were scuba diving, the Bermuda Triangle, looking for pre-cataclysm civilizations. What did you find and why did you do that? - Why did I do that? But this time, I'm quite interested. This is now 69, maybe 70. - Oh, so you're actually between tours? - Well, yeah, the reality was at that time. And now I'm commissioning them a captain. They had been come out of Vietnam already. - You're captain already? - Oh yeah, well, remember, in Vietnam, that way I was two years to captain. So, rightly or wrongly, that they say, war, what do you get from motions? So, yeah, I was, most of the time, taking any period of long period of leave, you just didn't do that just because of the jobs you were in and whatnot. And so, if you were gonna be off for a few weeks, it was between assignments. And I think that's where they're coming from. I think, no, not sure where it's coming from, but I was going to Fort Benning to go to the career course, if you will, but I had time. Then where I was from Miami area, I lived there at time. So, in fact, when I was in Vietnam, my family had stayed there. And I had also run into people that had done some pre-unique research into the Benning Wall. And what, in fact, Jay Manson Valentine is the one who found the area. And a couple of, there was some twins that I knew, hate this, we get re-reaching way way back, but had introduced me and had an opportunity to go out and actually dive on it. I have problems with the folk explanation that it pens or something like this, 'cause it took both, there was a thing, I think, it was 1,800 meters long. And when you dive on it, you dive this side, it's ocean. Here are a whole series of rocks that are very clearly placed in their huge, and you put them off the other side, it's not there. And you could free dive it, so we didn't need tanks or anything to do it. So, yeah, and another area of interest, even more so now, is I am not a fan of out of Africa for the invasion, and I think we're finding more and more evidence that particularly in Western Hemisphere, our notion of history has got to be wrong. There were huge pockets of civilization where you just can't get there from here. Now, if you use the typical out-of-Africa approach, not to mention, as you know, they go out, well, they go back to them and then you meet them, so you go, well, and then you meet, you go, well, where did they come from? One of these little pockets of population there, and when you get into Central and South America, this is much more recently, but when you go through, particularly in Central America, and you see all these mounds that are there, basically every mound is the temple. They just haven't been excavated yet, and we're doing more with light hours, you know, looking at them coming out, finding larger and larger groups, and I find this true all the way down to Madagrosso, had, I remember being in Eka, in Peru, and seeing the mummies there, and they were going, they said, "Well, where did they give you?" And they gave me the illusion chain, and then, you know, cold game, and you go, but you asked, why, why did you do some bitter DNA testing and things, and the answer was funding, quite frankly, but the more that we're looking, you're finding larger and larger population centers throughout, you get into Madagrosso, for instance, there are areas in Brazil, and I don't know what I mean. - And they're finding these giant roads, connecting in these places. - Yeah, well, that's the point, yeah. - Yeah, they keep revising the date backwards farther and farther. - No. - Were you looking for Atlantis? - Yes. - You were looking for Atlantis, so-- - Well, I had certainly heard, you know, beyond the pillars of Hercules, - Yes. - of the continents of Atlantis. So that's sort of what it was listed as. Can't say it was Atlantis, per se, certainly, and it was not continental in form. But there was something there that was pretty damn vague, and no, I don't think it was fish pens, or something like that. So, there's no question that Bimini is man-made, but we just don't know what it was for. - Bimini is island, or-- - I mean, Bimini, Bimini Road. - Bimini, well, in my view, yeah. I do not see that, it was certainly man-made, and certainly not simple, you know, explanation of that way way too big. - Why do you think there's such pushback on the theory of a predeluvian civilization, why resist that? - Well, part of it's just generic history. There's two things the one that I'm sure we'll get into, and that is literally worldview, and we've been kind of bouncing around the outside of this already, but one of the pure materialistic, you know, we're gonna go back and get to the God-Barticle, or something like that. And the other that I tend to support is more like Max Planck that says, you can't get behind consciousness, and I hear the idea that consciousness rises, or the physical arises from consciousness, as opposed to, you know, something we generate in a few pounds of meat. - Yeah, I tend to believe the same thing, but I don't know who created it in the first place. Was consciousness here before the Big Bang? - Consciousness is. - It is. I get that question on that, and it's kind of hard to explain. And in our, you know, the worldview, again, that we brought up the standard review, of course we're seeing a huge shift now between classical physics to quantum. My best quote on that was from John Feynman, who had been at Los Alamos, and he goes, "Anybody who says they understand quantum mechanics doesn't." - That's right, that's a great quote. We're coming up at a break, but I can't help but ask. Did you, you were friendly with Ed Teller? - Yes. - Did you, and Teller ever discuss Max Planck's theories about consciousness? - No. - I would have loved to get his-- - Yeah, that would be great. - That you're picking his brain. - We did do UFOs, and we, you may want to discuss some of that a bit longer, but yeah. No, and as you know, had him over, literally over for dinner, several times. And, because more interested initially, and what's his take on UFOs. - What did he think? - The quote was, "They're looking in the wrong place." And he did not mean by that in looking in the wrong files. He was talking about telescopes and things like that. But again, we're still talking the time, when even my thinking was, we're talking physical hardcraft and we're, we're crap playing around, but, and I had, by this time, had already had the advanced theoretical physics and we've got in some of that. - Yeah, we'll get into that. - So we, and a lot of cases, and he was interested in cash laundrom. - He was. - Yeah. - What drew him to that? - That's 1980. - Radiation. - Radiation. - Yeah, the cash laundrom is December of 1980. - Yep. - And I mean, remember, he was thinking of radiation. - Sure. - The idea that people have been radiated in that, you know, that was got some personal interest. - All right, we'll take a quick break when we come back. I want to talk about the new mental battlefield. - Okay. - All right, we'll be right back. - Okay, and in December 1980, you published the new mental battlefield, sent it to military review, expected them to reject it, and then they put it on the cover. - Yep. - Who is the editor? What was he like? - Well, no, that was key, and another one of these serendipitous events. I was attending in a Command General Staff College at 11 Worth, not terribly challenging, and so I wrote the article because I was interested in these various weird shit things. I guess that I had really didn't think 'cause I went into remote viewing and psychokinesis, and it was, at that time, a book that had recently come out was Psychic Discovery's Behind Now Here in Curtain. And so what is Sophia's doing and all that? Gonna keep, by the way, I keep slipping within Soviet and Russia in the wild, and I understand the difference. But most of my life was in the Soviet era. So we were very concerned about everything. So I wrote the article and then it turns out, and I don't remember the editor's name, but I got to meet him. He'd had a near-death experience and had been out of body. And that's how the thing got from little to printed to the front cover of the magazine. So it came out by, by the time it came out, I'm now in Washington, in the Pentagon, assigned to Department of Army and Spectra General. And frankly, it came out of, I don't know, I'm so glad about it. However, there was a, you know, Jack Anderson, okay, so Jack Anderson picks up on this, and he writes the story, "The Boudre Warriors of the Pentagon," you know, "Ain't it awful." I'll call the Pentagon's wasting your money. And of course, he was syndicated, so this went out widely. I got to meet the guy. It turns out he hadn't written the article. I get the guy's name, who took that and wrote a book. What happened was, said they got more response to that article than anything he had ever written. And it was 99% against them. Everybody was saying, "Well, of course, the Soviets are doing this. We ought to be doing that and whatnot." Which was not, but he actually showed me the draft article, which was written positively. And they just flipped a few words from, look at the neat stuff they're doing. Look at how they're wasting your money and whatnot. Fast forward. After that happens. Again, I'm literally in the balls of the Pentagon. This Lieutenant Colonel comes worrying out. Did you write this article? Yeah. Don't you know the process for getting it cleared? Yes, why? And why I had the file there, I don't know. But it happened to happen when I said, "What office are you from?" And he would've been from AXE, assistant chief of staff. Apparently, it was fast forward a number of years later. I mean, we're doing a Spoon Dunding Party. And this guy raises his hand and this Colonel's money. Did you write such an article? I said, "Yeah. Would you like to meet the guy who cleared it?" Wow, he was there at the Spoon Dunding Party. Well, this was an official event. So all the people there were military. Sure. But the point is he'd gotten his ass handed out. Oh, he did? Or letting it out. You know, he may or may not have known about, I think it was a grow flame at the time. But. Oh, pre-stargate. Oh, long. I mean, it went through several iterations of the same program, but his name changed and locations and things like that. But it was all under AXE. The assistant chief of staff for Intelligence. And so that was the office who came in screaming, 'cause this gets into compartmentalization. We're part of people who know what's going on and those are people who don't. It didn't raise any flags at the time. So you brought the Spoon Dunding parties. Can you tell me a little bit about Stubblebine? What was he like? I mean, did he really try to walk through walls and do stuff with the clouds? No, the clouds are real. I used to do that. You can actually do that. You can make clouds disappear. And what you do is, you know, I know there's the right one. You've got kind of a chain, and you've got to identify which one you're working with hard to explain. But, yeah, mentally, you can bust clouds. You can do it. Yeah. How do you know they're just not doing that on their own? Well, the point there is, like I say, you have a series and you pick one and you pick that one and the one's next to it. Right. Don't do it. Yeah. And only the one that you're working on does. Highly, I don't know of any scientific data that would back it up. My personal experience is, you know, we did that. So, that part was done. One of the things about Stubblebine was, hey, was that very interested in the field and all of that. What was done on, generally at the time, is he was one of these people who was allergic to, like, beastings or things. And so, he was going out to Walter Reed and constantly getting shots from, you know, from military perspective. It's not good. In fact, I got evacuated once on beastings and Vietnam. What do we call them? BCBs, but, you know, we get multiple things very quickly. So, he couldn't do that. So, this is a good Duncan thing. He says, well, if I'm mostly here, or, you know, vacuum and the needle is mostly made up of nothing, then we ought to be able to interpenetrate without doing that. But I have no indication to ever run into Walter or anything like that. But he did believe that everything is made up of mostly nothing. Oh, yeah. Well, that's true. It's true. I mean, you think about him, and just from a pure atomic level. And most of the stuff is not matter. It's space in between. Of course, so the idea would be to interpenetrate. You know, I push this way, then it hurts, but if I could slip between, it may not hit pain receptors. So, the spoon-bending parties, were those stubblebinders at a hike? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. And what happened? We had heard about Jack-- Jack Halk, by the way, he was fulfilling--no, no, the aerospace engineer at McDonald Douglas. And he had, actually, where Erie comes in as well, where he was kind of the model. So, he'd heard about these things. And so, Jack developed a process where basically anybody could do it. And what happened was that we had heard about--he was coming. He was actually a contractor for CIA at the time, where kind of probably spot him back and forth to the Washington area. Erie Geller was? No. This is very-- Jack Halk. Right. Jack was a great guy, because we got him the Dinsdale award for it. He was very interested in these areas. He had developed--anyway, he had developed a kind of a--what we call the PK parties or PKMB. And so, some friends had him over and attended that and saw him, and that's kind of interesting. So, I went to Burton and said, "Hey, you know, hey, this is real. Let's set it up." So, we had an event at my apartment. It was in Northern Virginia, you know, on Dreopel Horace or Portland. Very well. Well, on Dreopel was there, as a matter of fact, and probably don't know, Ted Brockwell. No. Ted's key, because Ted was there, and he had his own business here. He was Rick Overs technical director, and he brought with him, owned by him, and Gaiman, who was quite effective medium in that. So, we had a normal thing, I guess I had--there was an ambassador there. and some others. And we ended up we were sitting around literally on the floor and kind of quasi-circle and still not quite sure. But when you start, you can use some physical force and you talk them through it and you can feel most feel a perceptual change in the material and all of that. So we were doing that and it turns out that hurt was sitting directly across from Ann Gaiman and she's one we get to the final that's where you hold a pair of forks match forks you know and no physical force allowed and all of a sudden the thing goes whoop and we went oh shit. Did you expect that to happen? No. No when you well kind of hoped them and that's you but but the idea that and but it happened that dramatically and directly across from him an absolutely no physical force and this is real. Now sometimes it's not like and I asked all the time you bend the fork and A don't do that don't demonstrate and it's more because of and this is why we went to the pk party and we would bring you know the senior folks in because if I bend it you can give me a hundred reasons how and yes there are tricks and like they have trained with the I don't know if you know a lot new he's a local magician here and that's kind of one of his sticks now however he does believe we got involved because you know he does believe that it can be done real but there are ways to manipulate him. Perustin Pyöräilyu vaatteita valmistäván ornotin vuonna kaksitu hattakolmetoista. Mielestä ni parasta Shopify saan se, että voimme harioittaa liiketoimintaa ilman teknista osaamista, voimme hallinoida yrityksen taustajärjestelmiä ja front-endija sekä myyden verkossa vaivatta, jos Shopify olisi pyöräilyvaruste, sollisi mielestäni itse polku pyörä. Sillä asiat hoidetaan ja meida liiketoiminta mehoituu Shopifyissa. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu Shopify piste kom sivustolla. So the idea in fact in taking us to see Berwood have love ends. Enskam is a unit around the world. I mean and we supplied the people to the listening station of NSA and all of that. What's Enskam for folks who don't know? Intelligence and security command. They're now at Fort Belvoir. They were at Orlington Hall at the time. Two-star command but you have these kernel-cut level command all over the world so they'd bring them in about once a quarter. You know what's going on? What are you going to do planning for next night? And so periodically we would do it. By the way, these were not universally thought to be a good thing. I bet not. There were a lot of people very resistant. But his reason for doing it was not to bend spoons and I always used to get asked how you get to bend tank barrels. In the early 80s already but computers you know that's where I think the vulnerability actually is. But the idea was more doing it with its commanders to say don't disregard things just because you don't understand it because we had been blindsided. You remember Sputnik? There were a number of Soviet advances that had really caught us off guard and you go back and you look and one of the information was there but well the classic one is one that you actually talked about in a program that had to do with the submarines that it was Joe Monaco as the one who had done that. But he came up you know they had asked him this is the remote gym program now. They had given him that case geographic coordinates. It's a bit changed but and he says well there's this big ass submarine and it's dual hauled and the tubes are forwarded to the sail and a whole bunch of things that were different and they sent it to our boat builders and that bullshit. We don't have any information besides if you built something that big when it went to depth it would crush and then the clouds parted and the cameras came on and there's the typhoon class submarine. Yeah. There it is. With double hulls and all that. But the point man it was oh as Joe had out like but his point was no we've been blindsided enough so just because you get things you don't believe now you've had an experience of seeing things that would happen like that. It's a reminder that you know check check it out don't just just classically disregard it. Can we see some of the silverware? Oh yeah. These are amazing. What I brought with me is these are literally the actual forks that happen have tape on because they normally keep them stuck. Now what happens is that at the end of what we call the graduate school you hold them thusly and so this took place at Xerox Center and we had again the folks from all over the world mostly 06's if you will 5's a couple generals and so I'm kind of a semi-circle I'm in front and there's two rows and these guys yell and this thing had dropped a full 90 degrees which I did not see. Were you holding it? No no no this is I'll get to why I hold them. These are the actual forks but what happens then with a GSA teen a science advisor is the one who saw it drop these people young but I'm also frankly a little skeptical that somebody's not putting me on because remember these people are not happy right that we're doing this in hallowed grounds but then because they this drops over it comes back up to straight up go back down and back to where it literally waived now that's an end of one I saw that once of these are the ones and the reason I have them is the guy put them down and said I wish that hadn't happened I mean really scared him sure and because normally we want to do these things people take all the stuff home with them which is fine and normally that's what there were some other major bends that took place last night and whoever did it did take them with them you can tell that's oh you can tell yeah but the point is because at the only time I saw Anne's drop that once a full 90 degrees I saw this was the only one where we actually saw it you know kind of literally waived that as understanding because he was assigned in Europe and Sullivan was over on another trip and saw him said he did it once more at home and put it down and said never again so who is bending it with this kernel the kernel was yeah and he didn't expect it to work he did not want it to work I understand this is a personal you know scaring him now one of the things we haven't gotten into the work of the devil in all of these things this is a major issue I mean not to be taken in trivial man as you know you get into the UFO we have the you know vice president now talking about demons that are out there at all but I had well when the article came out a number of friends that I talked to again I'm in in the building and talking and they're going like that's the work of the devil we shouldn't be doing that and as a matter of fact the good rationale why the program moved from army to defends intelligence agency and that chief of staff the army well fundamentalist Christian and those issues have never gone away where do you stand on that do you think it's the some type of spiritual warfare anything like that that's a very different question is it yeah is it spiritual warfare or what not I do think there's a spiritual domain that we're getting into and this is where you know all of these things come together it's back into consciousness and and all of that but you added another word and that was warfare yes does that happen now one of my problems with many of the the organized religions. that is that they set up dogma. Old digress a bit, as I said, Kubeh Ross had been the head of my doctoral committee and was doing the dissertation, she made me change one word. That was from religious to spiritual. - Ah. - And it made a major difference in the outcome of a thing and many of the people said, I don't like the dogma of the church, but I have a spiritual relationship with spring being whatever you want to call that. There were other us who said I believe it's spiritual, but I like the ritual of the church 'cause I haven't grown up within that. But it gets terribly, terribly complex stuff. - It does. I mean, I know you know Chris Bledsoe very well. When he was here, I asked him, can anyone learn to summon orbs? He said yes, but you shouldn't. - I haven't talked to her, I've been in touch with Chris since yesterday. - He doesn't. - You know that story, you know? Where should I tell him? - Tell it. - But what had happened is that, yeah. He met me, he had met him in Pennsylvania initially and talked in this long story. I mean, he told it, but it can do hours, literally. And so I knew about the initial thing. Victoria and I went to see him and we spent a few days and we went down to the Cape Fear River where that incident, the initial incidents had occurred. And so what got my attention, well, I already had, was pretty positively disposed because I had seen enough stuff. But we went down to the lower thing right next to the river, walked back off where he says he had seen going beams and all that. So we're at the car in Victoria and his daughter Emily get in the back of the car and Chris and I are leaning against the left front. Hunter is getting just starting to get dark. White light going on and he turns to me and said, oh, I think they're here. And with that, this thing pops into view and he goes zipping off and I saw that. And there was a second against the temporal relationship between him saying, I think it's here and that. No, we've done a lot more since that. In fact, doing some competition now and trying to prove unconscious of the big one, did you do the one on real, real, real spitter? This was on Beyond Skinwalker Ranch and the incident that I think is truly phenomenal is that the split screen or Chris was sitting there pointing off the UFOs or the orbs that you will over there. The second camera has the orbs. The third one, he's got an EEG helmet on and you see a massive ship in brain waves when he says this interaction is occurring. Wow. Easily quantifiable, kind of can't quite explain it, but it does say that there are things going on and I think I can't say it's totally unique. I will say I'm hearing more and more of people who are doing something. I should mention Bob and Rowe and that. I wanted to ask you if you knew Bob, well, the Monroe Institute. Yeah, well, I knew Bob. Of course you did. But, yeah, what folks don't know is, yeah, he used to go out and do this too. Bob would summon orbs? Yeah, well, no UFOs. UFOs? Yeah. And by the way, Elizabeth also was a friend of his. Had been down there. And yes, they would summon them in and see. See, one of my first questions that I do on the UFO presentations is, what do you mean? Because I got orbs, you know, little balls of light that are running out. They got hard craft that are miles, literally miles across and thousands and thousands of variations in between. It doesn't want to come down against the ETH or extraterrestrial hypothesis, not because they aren't there, but that's just too simple. Unless Earth is on the galactic list of bucket list of places that have to be visited or something like that. But there's pieces of that that don't make sense. But the idea is, again, it gets back to what we said before. Yeah, it's happened and it's got the G. But it's kind of all what's been going on. It's like near-death experiences for many families for years and years. They just never talked about it. It was something that was talking to family because it was crazy or something of this. It happened to have one of the most unique NDEs where you have physical effects on that. You happen? Well, no, I guess Task Force Delta was being formed, which is different from Delta Force. This was a think tank sort of thing. And they got introduced to an individual. He's not really, I think, ever become public. But what was unique about it, because they told me he would shot down what happened was, normally, this is a Vietnam story, but normally when you went out, at least in Paris, well, this particular day, this one Cobra was out flying along. And the Cobra, you know, you got the pilot and co-pilot lined up like this. They're kind of screwed around, and they get raked with 51 caliber. And it's bad enough that Jim gets hit inside of the leg, breaks his leg. And all of that, what happens, as he described it to me, is when he gets hit, he goes forward. Supposedly, the landing or the controls are shot away, but he remembers landing. You know, what happened, though, was there was no place to land, per se, it was a small opening. So they go into a country, they bring the nose up. So it's going to come in boom, in fact. It's going to be a very bad day under all circumstances, but it's kind of a media race to shock, because it was coming in like that. What's key, though, is that you have no idea what the orientation of the Helicopter is going to be, because the blades are still spinning, which is going to affect the way it land. So you don't know until the end of that. Well, it turns out, about a click and a half in front of them is a friendly fire support base. And they see the incident happen. Well, they crash as well on the beaches on all the sudden, out of his body, up floating above. And he's looking down, and he can say, here's the helicopter, here's how it's oriented. And there's the base in front of us. And he says, I said, why mail? But he thought it was a mail figure. He says, what are you doing here? And he said, no response was, well, I want to help for them. Not I'm in trouble, and he says, but don't you know? He says, no, what? You're not dead yet. With this, Jim sits up inside the back seat, has already got him out, and he's running away. At that instant, he turns, and he sees Jim moves. Or he runs back and grabs him. And he says, I thought you were dead. You haven't moved since we were hit. And he says, there's a fire friendly base that's out over here. I'm going to go for help. And he says, no, Jim says, no, no, it's in this direction. Guy insists, no, it's this way. Jim can't move, got a broken leg. His face is literally burned off. Oh, my God. He was now setting in, and he goes, no time to argue. Literally, he gets the guy to give him his pistol, as he's decided to commit suicide rather than be captured. So what happens is the bad guys come swimming in. In this case, relatively relative. And then the friendly base comes in, and they find him. But this is the only case that I have, because they put him in a jungle penetrator. And lift him up. And he can say, here's the helicopter. There's the base. This guy's lost. And saved his life. Because before he passes out, he's able to say, went in this direction. But the only case that I have, where the guy physically replicates in body, what is out of body position. Right. Right. I think Joe McMonical said it was his near-death experience that it kind of wakened his abilities. I was also a past president of the International Association for Intergest Studies, and have seen this change. And one of the interesting things that happened, initially, initially now, we're talking late '70s, '80s, the idea was that this was a discrete event that happened over a very short period of time, and mystical things happened, but it happened within that timeframe. One of the things that became apparent with lions was that, no, the people did gain abilities, particularly psychic abilities, precognition, one of the main things that we've got to watch, but was that electronics, that these people couldn't be around electronics, that they could be affected by it. But that turned out to be one of the unexpected issues that had happened. Of course, the other was the amount of things that happened during this discrete integer, you know, how long you were out, time just doesn't seem to count, you know, my brother, Evan, no relationship on that, really good, there's a case where he was out for nearly a week. Out of body for a week? Well, the NDE has lasted, he's definitely in coma for about that endgame meningitis, and he has these fantastic experiences that happened, one of the things about Evan, I think, was unique, he was a neurosurgeon. So he's one of the few people who came in and says, "Well, I understand neurophysiology and no, the brain could not have been functioning." Well, one of the aspects of it, there's many, and I recommend proof of heaven, as well, well, he's got several of the proof of heaven, map of heaven, was another one. But he talks about being out, going through these realms, and he has this butterfly, the female that takes him around and all of that, turns out that Evan had been adopted at birth. Kind of unique, after he's adopted and moved away into the Alexander family, his birth parents, Mary, and have other kids. So he has siblings that he doesn't know, he doesn't know who his birth parents are, doesn't know much about the family or anything. You know, is he's adopted, though? He doesn't know he's adopted. But doesn't know the pair, okay? He doesn't know his birth parents or anything. So he gets in contact with them, and he gets a picture of a now deceased daughter, and he says, "That's the butterfly." Wow, did not know her or anything about it, it was really, you know. Did they give him any sense of peace, or how did he feel about that? I don't know if you're right. He's big, of course. This stuff starts bleeding into all of it, in the consciousness field because what he will talk about is layers and layers of complexity that is hard to, you know, beyond our capability of understanding, certainly, that, yeah. But this was part of, you know, this was transformational kinds of things that happened. The other one, in the case, well, we had jumped from Jim, he did not, like I said, did not really go public with that much. That came about. The other one that I think is, well, there's so many, again, you can search Ion's file, but another one that I think is absolutely critical, you know, it's Mary Neal, the fat named Rigabon, or heaven and back. Yes. Okay. In her case, what's interesting, she's kayaking in Northern Chile in a remote area, and the long story, but she, the last day, and they go over a waterfall, and she's an experienced kayaker, so it's well within her range, but she gets forced into it, not the way she wanted to go, and goes over it, and the kayak goes in and locks underwater. And normally there's a release, she can hit, but because the force of the waterfall can't reach it or anything like that, probably underwater 30-35 minutes, find her body down there, bring her back two guys up here, and they assist in carrying her, you know, to the waiting ambulance in an area that has no ambulances, and then the, you know, takers of the thing, now she says met God being out there, and other than she had four young children, and something no mother would want to hear is, oh, your son's going to die at 17. She was told that, yeah. And did not relay that to anybody, and like I said, so about a year before, she finally told her husband, by the way, she's a orthopedic surgeon in her own right, and they tell them, and sure enough, birthday comes, and he's out skateboarding in a different location, and the car zigs to miss them, but he and bags, and last time I talked to him, what was interesting was that she said, well, they're worth, there were other things that have yet to come to pass. That's all, she says one of the last personal, but yeah, more information that had been transferred. Who would, why burden her with that information? Why do that? Oh, I would not say she's that as a burden. Knowing that your son's going to die, I don't know if I can handle it. Knowing that we're going to be together. John, do you think, do you think about what's, do you think about what's going to happen to you? Well, I'm long past my expiration date. You are, and you're still going strong. Now, my mother died as a strong biological standpoint. My mother died in early 50s, and father about 70, I'm long past that now, so well. I don't seem too worried. No, no, I've, my question is all, it's like all of these things, you know, these incidents that have happened and leading me going like, would somebody just give us the map? Right. What do you want to do? Right. Do it. It would be an area that has come up more recently, though, has to do with pre, or pre birth agreements. And this is coming, you think, more and more into Vogue, that we made certain agreements, and you're going to be presented. You still have free will. You get on the conundrum of free will versus the predestination. But the opt that you can, you know, you'll be presented with certain things that will allow you to make choices, and you still have a choice of which way to, you know, to go with it. But, yeah, I've always wondered what we, well, particularly the world as it is now, did we really sign up for this? Right. I think, I think Raymond Moody's talked about it. I don't know if you know Michael Newton's work. He's talked about that life between lives and how we kind of gather together is in soul groups, and we decide together. Like, alright, I'll see you down there, and this is what we're going to do. You kind of feel the same way. Pretty much, pretty much. I had, oh, this is kind of an odyssey kind of ship in the movie. But what the issues was that the temporal ships that take place and followed Homer did the same thing when writing it. A little way back, you know, it was doing hypnotic regressions. You were. Yeah. And, you know, the issues are what's in between and all of that. What did you see? Well, no, I was the hypnotist. What? Where did you learn to do that? and was terrible. terrible subject. I'm a control-free. Same. And I admit it. Doesn't work on me. Yeah, and I don't like you about, and if we're going to go into an Iowa school or things like that, but it's working with the shamans. It's got enough information, and again, a number of mediums, and again, some of the things that we had seen that just make no sense. And for me, with automatic writing, that's one that's coming to mind. Now, this would have been Fort Benning, so '71, '72 time frame, working with a guy Charles Logue, who was a professor at Columbus College there in, I forget the College that they're in Columbus, Georgia, and they were taking night courses and met some mediums who were doing phenomenal work. They used a plan-shout, so it was like, you know, they have a pen, what was ball points in the back, and it would get these long, long messages in that. What was most amazing to me, though, in all of that, interesting message, but this would get this thing with scribble, I mean, just, and then all of a sudden, like, and this picture would emerge. What was someone's hand on it, like a Ouija board plan, just moving it? And it would draw a picture. Well, it would, it looks like it was just scribbling until the end, and it makes two or three moves, and all of a sudden it was going, wow, that's a picture, you know, the background stuff that all been put in, and certainly beyond somebody, I think, beyond their ability to, I'm going to scribble a bunch, and then, oh, by the way, a couple lines, and here's this picture. What was it a picture of? I don't recall, but you don't recall. We're talking about 1771 time frame, I mean, yeah, as I said, there are so many instances like this. What deal do you think you made? Before, what deal do you think you made come before he came back? What was your reason to be here? Like a common sense. Well, all these things happen to you. Yeah. It would be much easier if, from the other side of the set, here's the blueprint of how to do this, as opposed to, oh, you've got to almost die, but, you know, but then these sorts of things will happen. I mean, I look at it and I'm, you know, some of the stories we're off, but I could tell you the difference between the bullet zinging and the bullet cracking. That means that it's that close. Right. You know, and that was an instance where, for whatever reason, the guy who was shooting at me, who was pre-damaged, or because the second shot, well, that was already happened to be a ditch there, you know, it was right online. And had he done what you should have done, I shoot center of mass, as opposed to a headshot. He'd have nailed me to no doubt about it, but that didn't happen. Why, you know, why can I tell you these things? And they only make more sense in retrospect. Of course, then what they do. Well, you're clearly on missions still. I just wouldn't want to know if you felt like you were. What do you definitely are? I guess speaking of Vietnam, and what about, tell me about project Jedi, and the, and the experiment with the 45 cow. Well, this is back to income. Yes. Yeah. NLP, we familiar with NLP. Your linguistic programming. Yeah. Okay. Say, I had the two co-founders, Richard Bandler, and John Grinder under contract. I'm working with him as a guy you've probably heard of called Tony Robbins. I've heard of all three, yeah. Well, Robbins and Grinder were working together. And this is when I'm working for Bert. Now, NLP was designed as a therapeutic modality. I, you take broken people and make them better. And what Frogs Into Princess was the first book by Bandler and Grinder. And it was, you know, how do we make them? Now, in income, our problem was different. It was how do we take good people and make them even better. And so, it was set up, like I said, had them all, by this time, Bandler and Grinder have spent. So, the, the Twains don't make there, but Tony and actually did most of the work with Tony Robbins. This is, you know, before, before Tony was done worldwide fame and all of that. But we, it was an interagency group. And one of the things we had in common is everybody shot something. Now, the other problem with, with, with allergies were, you know, feeling better. You can't quantify that. So, what we did is we, since everybody shot, and the question was not, did you hit the target? Did you not? It's, you know, you hit the target and blah, blah, blah. So, we, uh, got to, it was difficult at the time. 45 ammunition was really critical. But we went out and we could go, we could contact anybody as models. And so, we ended up, the people in the civilian sector. Why, you know, the Army Marksmanship Unit is kind of the place to go. So, we brought in the Army Champion, the Inter Service Champion, and their boss. And we did modeling with them. And we did some stuff. First of all, things like, you know, why do you do this? What do you believe about shooting and all of this? And all of them, you know, stating was good and whatnot. And you could protect life and there's a way to make a living and, and whatnot. Um, we, um, so we went to the physical aspects of it and got them, took them and shooting, and we got them as far off balance as you could get. And they were pretty damn good. Even being way off balance, they had enough muscle memory they could have had. But if you ask them to do a mental task like Hummery, had a little lamb, went to shit originally, you know. So, obviously it was more than physical and much more mental capability. You know, it, it's interesting that, that Tony Robbins and, and those guys were involved because, do you see now how we've got, in like business success seminars, there's visualization, there's people doing the cold plunges, well, we missed the biggie, which is what we did with them. Well, again, the person we're working with on out, we, we had a day where, um, in the morning, we taught people how to break boards, you know, the karate. That's right. He does that too. He also fire walking. Well, that's the, the second step in the afternoon, we did the spoon bending. And in the evening, we did fire walking. You did. Yep. And the quote he uses, but does not attribute was mine was the, you know, the question was, what if you had a battalion of people that could do this? And I said, yeah, you just have to tell them they're coming. Yeah. But it was quite a day. So it was this all projects Jedi with those guys? Was this Jedi? Yes. I mean, kind of attached to name. Sure. That was not one of the official titles. There have been several Jedi programs that have come up. Some of them official others. We just attached to, again, remember, this is when Star Wars is at his track. Oh, that's right. You know, Jedi warriors are sure, just the, the thing. Um, did you notice that your program went civilian? Did you notice that the program went civilian? Like when, when Tony became famous for your like, we did that. Yeah. Well, like I said, what he didn't do is attribute it to cool. No. Why didn't the military take it more seriously? Well, no, that's, you know, it's in the political aspects of what you don't, you don't have to. Well, no, no, they did for a while. Remember, this was, this witch is not all popular. And you have the values of the big system, if you will. We were operating quite independently. Uh, we started a second problem, uh, project that was related. And this had to do with NSA, um, at the time, remember, Inescom provides the people to work at NSA. The Soviets were much faster. Our guys were topping out, normally, 25-30 groups. Remember, the stock code is sent in five-digit segment bursts. Our guy is topping out probably around 20-30. The super debts that they had were – listen to the Soviets, their fists could get up to like 60 words a minute or so. But we had a few people that we had found inside that were doing this, and what they called them was super debts. Turns out that what we found out was basically we're looking for the wrong people. We looked for smart people, and some people who had sent them the wrong question. The simple question to ask is what kind of stereo equipment do you own? How does that work? That works because they hear better. They hear better. Yeah. And so that was really the defining question. If you were going to look for people who are going to do well in this or ones that had super hearing. Now, the other question we did have though is, where's the buffer of the mind? Because what would happen is they would hear these things, and the thing would stop, and they're still putting themselves. I don't have an answer for that. The question is, where is the buffer? Because this thing is staging and they would continue to write after the transmission does actually stop. And you couldn't find the buffer? Maybe you could now with neurophysiology or an MRI or something like that, which we did not, you know, didn't exist at the time, little on. You know, what did happen though, was that this would get in the army political. The Bert, as a two-star general, was in charge of income. At the army staff level, you had the temperature operations, personnel, research and development, logistics are all three-star positions, and intelligence was two-star. And they said, "That doesn't make sense. I mean, intelligence aren't there. So we're going to make it a three-star position." So there were two people that were alive. The current axi, Bill Odom at the time, and Bert Subelbein, who was at INSCOM, and the fighting got really ugly. Some of them know we had used the Monroe Institute for training for some of them. Well, just kind of a generic orientation, as well as people doing remote doing work. And we had an accident down there. You know, people can look up and find the name. But we had a lieutenant. What happened was, before people went down, they came in from all over the world and they bust them down at the Monroe Institute, and they had all been screened because we had a shrink that worked with us. Was this part of Colonel O'Connell's report? Wayne O'Connell in '81 did a report on the Gateway Process from Monroe. Much later. Later, okay. Oh, no. I know the report. Now, this is, if that's 81, they had, well, the issue I was getting to was the accident. So somebody didn't show up. And this lieutenant, Badgers, Subelbein, I don't want to go on to go on to go on to go. And he goes down there and, frankly, cracks up. Now, understand it in the military. Unfortunately, you know, we kill a few kids every year with tanks and things like that. Bad accidents. Well, I should all say, yeah, this guy, I saw him wrapped off. He was, but, yeah, sometimes he was ranting and raping, sending the water reading two, three days later, he's out. He's fine. Maybe got his thores in shot or something. Sure. But he's recovered. And he got his clearances back and everything. So he recovered from that experience? It's almost instantly. Did you need your psychiatrist at all? A bird. Okay. And, you know, what happens at the, it's about this time that we're upgrading the intelligence that was used against bird and just decimated it kept coming back and back and, you know, and he, frankly, got forced into retirement over that and so on. And that we were doing this weird stuff. Ed Soister came in behind him, who, interestingly, had no intelligence experience or told you off. So I think, and said his job was to clear the nest of vipers. Did you stay in touch with the stubble of mine after retirement? How did he do? Was he okay? Was he okay? It's terribly complex. He became a Trither. Wow. And really, one of the questions that comes up as to the efficacy of using, you had mentioned earlier when Chris said maybe he shouldn't do it. It is not risk-free. Let's take a quick break and come back and talk about John Hutchison and the ATP. Okay. All right. Our audience knows John Hutchison's work. They don't really remember that 1983, you were sent by the military to evaluate John, weren't you? I was the one who paid him, yeah. Yeah. Can you just start at the beginning? How did you learn about him? How do we learn about John? Well, there was George Hathaway, who is a double E from Toronto. And I'm trying to get the guy's name, who was with him, who was since deceased. And they had a small 16-millimeter film of a bunch of really weird things happening. And he came down and looked at it and said, you know, that's really impressive. I wonder how real it is. So I set up a program where, you know, I was paying him. He was working, had moved and been Cooper. Now, one of the things that happened was that he had, well, he liked to make sparks. I mean, that was his thing. Okay. So he was living in an apartment and he had a basement lab, if you will. And he had band-a-graph generators, Jacob Ladders and all kinds of other kinds of spark-making stuff. And the story, although I understand there are several, but the one he told me was that he would sit down there at night and he threw something in the area and all of a sudden to hit him. And he threw it back and he came out and hit him again and he goes like, what is it? There's nothing there. Now, the other problem was that with all of his electrical stuff, he was disturbing the environment. Now, remember, this is the days when the TV went through the air and so he was screwing with everybody's TV in the process. So they said he had to move. He's enough energy to overcome a broadcast signal? Exactly. He's just putting on crap. Right. Now, one other thing what he told me he was doing was that he would look at pictures of Tesla and look at what's happening in the, you know, his shopper on there and just try to guess how could he replicate some of that. It wasn't taking factual data. It was just taking pictures and, well, if I put stuff here and whatnot. Wow, I didn't know that. He was just looking at the pictures, trying to figure out. He knew of Tesla, of course. He had contacted George. George becomes the saving grace because he came over and did the diagrams of all the things are, you know, where they were physically related to each other and all of that. Unfortunately, part of it probably was the piping because he's in the basement and whatnot. He couldn't replicate that. But they said the, now this were Ted Rockwell came back into it again. Again, Ted was Rick Over's technical director who worked in nuclear energy. He had his own company. But it also gets into interspecies communication and sorts of things. Ted was the guy who brought in gaming. So many of these things, that's one of the things about how many of these things just intertwined in ways. that are almost unimaginable. - I mean, didn't you, in the past, didn't you communicate with dolphins at some point, are you working on that? - Yeah, that's the whole of the story, but yeah, we did work, that's why I call it interspecies and immunications with a telepathic work. Neptune's helper if we get to that. So anyway, like I say, we've seen the pictures, we've talked to them, and it's probably real, so we set it up. The idea was that they would recreate the workshop that John had in Vancouver. And so, you know, he did, and one of the things that we did is, I was physically at Port Belvoir at the time, had a place down there. You know, we're working with Cleve Baxter and those things. But, so we took a bunch of metal samples and cut them in half, put half of them in the safe at Port Belvoir, and gave the other half for John to manipulate, and it was thinking we can, you know, see if there are physical structural changes or anything like that. Now, the problem was John, you know, problem. You know, there's no single effect. There were so many different things going on. You had mentioned earlier to me the anti-gravity. Well, there were things that levitated. There was no doubt about that. The one that I found really interesting, people today may not remember how light bulbs used to work with a filament across the earth. And we had a tape, he had two pieces of wood and a rat tail filed probably above, you know, this big across. And it is exposed to this field and it starts glowing and turns not only white out red or, you know, to white hot and then drops. Interestingly, they went in. Hey, the boards weren't burned. B, it was cold to pick up. Even though it had just gotten to the point with that. One of the many sorts of effects that had happened. Cold as in room temperature or cold, cold. Pick it up. Okay. You know, this molten, yeah. One second and he's been picked it up. The other issue was not all of these things were metal. I mean, the idea was maybe it's magnetic, electromagnetic of some kind and certainly that's what he was using for input. And that, you know, I just had to think sometimes levitate. The one we had to remember was Alex Bazar was the name I was trying to think of. They had in there a piece of PVC and shreds one end of the PVC. But it wouldn't affect a person or anything organic. We have no idea what it would do. Right. I mean, all we're saying and this is the problem is absolutely no control on any of the another one they did. Remember, I told you that John was looking at Tesla's bench to see what's on it. We're also at a poverty level. This is before people are coming in and finding out that we gave, I forget what a 20k or something like that. It wasn't a great amount, but the way he would get you would go to junkyard and pick stuff up. Well, one of the things he fucked up was the driveshaft and it brought it in and exposed to the field and then took it to the B.C. Hydro. One end of the driveshaft is like case hardened steel and the other is soft as lead. It's the same piece of metal. And all that happened was that it was exposed to John. So it's re-arranging the molecules? Well, the point is you have changes in a piece of a single rod, not the whole thing. And this was true in all cases. But I remember in the PVC one, the PVC evaporated. I mean, it just wasn't there anymore. Now, of course, it wasn't in the steel container where you could find it, but vaporized and it'd be picked up. Again, that John is, you know, there's some personal background. I won't go into it there, but these things were definitely happening. So one of the things that happened in the P.K. Arena, they mentioned the metal bending, Jack Howe could give me some molybdenome rods. And these had been extruded and nobody in the metal bending had ever bent the metal rods, so he gave them, so I gave them to John. And I got it back, and it damped this like S-curve in it, how it was just by being exposed to the field. And this is a very durable metal with a melting point of almost 5,000 degrees. Well, yeah. And we also looked to see if he had somebody gripped it through to, you know, no. Is that the piece you brought today? No. Okay. This is the one that John sent me. I just happened to have a lot of different ones, but look at this. I mean, just the size and weight of that. And then that's just from being exposed to his field. And you can see it's just ruptured. Yeah. And why and how don't know, but again, one of so many different effects that you're seeing. This one's obviously clearly metal. There was some that we had wood. We had others that were just twisted. We had, you know, some of it seemed to be soft and screws through it. And wood affected sometimes, wood unaffected. Again, totally lacking control. Did you see it happen in real time? Short answer would be no. What happened was, and our deal was where we were doing show and tell. I set it up and went up a number of times, and I brought in a team. I had two guys from Los Alamos, and three others from one night vision lab and a couple from the NCOM. They were working in the science field. So what happened was, okay, time for show and tell why so time. I do everything. You get there early, right? Yeah. I arrived a day early. And the, they're really excited to say, boy, we've got, you know, this thing that was just devastating. So we've turned it off. Now, we kind of understand this is terribly, this is a makeshift thing, if you will, and all kinds of stuff. An uncoordinated way and whatnot. And so I looked at, we look at it, and limiting. We just turned it off. So everything's the same. Saying it will just turn it back on tomorrow, and everybody else arrives and, well, turn it back on. The power supply burns up. I mean, literally, by the way, one of the key things in all of this was power in. All of the entire apparatus was being run on one, two, twenty extension cord. That, as a matter of fact, one of the naysayers that had been from LEMO ended up going to jail later for other reasons. But anyway, is the one who, he says, oh, they've got this stuff, you see the room, because we had a single room, a huge warehouse kind of facility. And this all was in one little cubicle of it. Well, damned if somebody comes in, and we were able to get into them. And no, there's no other external equipment that's driving energy into this sort of thing. There's one plug, two, twenty, maybe ten amp fuse, you know, like I say, an extent literally running off an extension cord, which has had burned up, and it turned out they had no spare. They spent the day getting it. By the way, there's some similarities to this in the ranch. And I know Jack Hock had also worked with John. And that is, you know, these anomalies, all things happen. I think I've mentioned what they call the precognitive sentient phenomenon. Now, this comes from the ranch. There's an it that knows not only what's going to happen, but how we are going to respond before the incident happens. But an it is in control, don't know what it is. That's true in the right. We had the same thing, you know, I hadn't identified, I didn't find that after working in the ranch for a couple of years, much earlier, I don't know. And this gets into, you know, Well, the trickster, if you will, which appears in folklore and that, Loki and Coca-pele and Pan, et cetera, it has to want to be observed. Well, but it's, you know, it happened, well, the same, we did it at the ranch, it was running 24/7 photographer and then things would happen just outside. The same thing here, you know, Jack had the same thing happen, it would happen just outside with the cameras or, or studying them. Sometimes it would happen above this area we were in in Vancouver, it would ceiling on it and then put stuff up there and things would kind of move around there too. So you couldn't define it, we thought it was a field effect, but we couldn't define the field by any stretch of imagination. Did you grab a new extension cord, nothing happened? Well, no, no, the problem was the power supply that was converting it, they found one and we got it and no, it didn't happen. Now I interviewed the entire team and five out of the six thought it really did happen. Now, the sixth one was a huge, not a skeptic, he was sent there to debunk it. He's the one who claimed that Tom Bearden, he thought that Tom Bearden had stuck in for people who don't know, Tom was working on the field for energy and all of this. It's part of the Sparky Suite story. But somehow he had stuck in and had set up this system, I was just total nonsense sort of the thing. The bad news was, and for reasons unknown, the Lannel report was classified. And so then it's out of the government's covering it up. Now, the simpler thing would have been to say, we came, we saw nothing happened, end of transmission instead of this convoluted theories that we did end up dealing with, still in touch with John, today I've got emails from him weekly, certainly, of not day, but never could get under control. And of course, he's done any number of documentaries and things like that, where you see the effect, and you can say we've observed something happen, and the kind of controls of how to go. The most perplexing thing, again, was the range of effects that we saw. Anything else besides gravity and bending? Well, heat, and burning and not burning, disintegration of material and, you know, do you think that there are zero point energy projects? Well, that's quite different question. You brought up Beard and I, you hadn't, you brought up Tom Beard and, yeah, well, Tom was a trip, knew him pretty well. He told me a lot of how Mossad had invisibility, capability, and how they would sneak into his house, and the reason he would know that is they would move his keys around or something like that. So now he was revered, not with the zero point energy, but in the psychotronic community. It was very interesting, but the problem I found particularly the scientific community is he would give these very officious sounding things, and then you would find out that certainly basic words, he was not using the same definition. We might use gravity, for instance, that his form of gravity could be different from the way science traditionally thinks about it. Yeah, no, Tom, you know, this goes back to the before, I think he came into the picture after the new middle battlefield or something, and no, no, no, I know it was before that. Because one of the statements that I put in there that I thought in retrospect I would have been more circumspect. And that was, I said that there were devices whose lethal capability had been demonstrated. I was pervercating there was that I really meant there was some insects that died as opposed that this wasn't designed to mean human. However, when you get into the Soviet research, you know, there were some where you had a fatal experiment. Sure. You wrote a letter to, I think it was the commanding general of Army Futures command, the commanding general of Army Futures. The Futures command, yeah. What? Telling him, here's what we found, you should look into it, what we trying to get reopened there. Well, I wasn't trying to reopen, but I've run into this in several cases, I thought they ought to know what we did. Sure. And I had been contacted previously, but more on the NLP research, and so my thing to them was just going to be, to somebody at least want to know what we did, you know, some of the stuff is still available and, you know, I mean, I'll call them Kelleher, and it was talking to him recently, and he says that we're the mortals, and he's talking about Shaq and Hal and me and Kit, you know, that, you know, well, getting up to the problem with many of these things, you know, just the information is dying out, literally. Everyone's very suspicious of you and Hal and Shaq for living forever. We want to know what deal you made. Could you quickly tell the story about the cells, your white blood cells behind the brick wall? I remember you telling that story somewhere, it was a, the National Academy was reviewing some of your work, remember that in great detail, all right? This gets the work of Cleeb Baxter, Cleeb was a polygrapher, he actually designed the system, well, this goes back in World War II, we had, he was in CIC, a counterintelligent score, I had transitioned early as the development of CIA, as he was a polygrapher, and he was very, it was big an astrology, by the way, as well, but what he was then initially living in New York, and he had a very basic question, he had a large plant there, and he says, "Well, I wonder if I pour water into the plant, how long will it take it to show up in the leaves?" So he put his GSR sensor on that, and whatever happened. But then he left it on, just was just running in his apartment and that, and suddenly started noticing everyone's, it was hooked up to the polygrap, so it was getting signal, everyone's mildly see a signal. From the plant? Yeah. Okay. Well, those times, the question was, why is this happening? So finally, he just spun out that there was a connection between what was going on in the environment and the plant. So he started by doing things like ripping the plant, and you see the thing, and then he'd burn the plant, and then he found out that by thinking about burning, or threatening to burn the plant, and the plant's responding, he calls this primary perception. Well, it's another word, Ted Rockwell comes back in as an introduction point. So anyway, I'm trying to think of all of the sequences that went a while ago, but so Cleve has now got his shop in San Diego, and one of the things that he does is he starts using oral leukocytes, which are white cells from the mouth, and they were either centrifuted but I'm confused, so the device was that we have electrodes in the oral leukocytes, and this thing is in a cage, or in a cage, you know, shielded it and all of that, and they would, how would the cells would respond to it? We found out, well, maybe back up, he had done some work before that on things like brine shrimp, and he had pots there, and he would keep the brine shrimp, and at an undetermined time. The shrimp would jump into boiling water and kill the shrimp and sure enough, you know, shrimp are responding. He also did some interesting work with yoghurt and one, because there's living organs and the yoghurt. So the next step up was using oral leukocytes because now it's attached to a single individual. And their experiment was that you'd have the donor would come in and then they would agree to watch a certain TB program. There was one where we expect some sort of violent thing. But you don't know when or what the event is going to be. And sure enough, you started seeing, because they would tape the program and then put it with it. And you'd see a violent event occurs, the thing starts reflecting. And the leukocytes? Yeah. Okay. Our interest, you've got to remember the red brigade and the general doger is captured. So we had people that, you know, and the question is, you know, can we communicate or can we start with simple things alive or not alive? Now, I had in military perspective looked at this too, and the idea was you'll put capsules in and there's something, you know, like a transmit. The response was probably not a good idea because if it's suspected, they'll just cut until they find it. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So that wasn't, but however, you know, now looking at it externally saying, you know, can we either communicate or can we just get an idea of life or not? So that was the genesis of looking at it from a military perspective and why. What happened? Well, I had done a series of, well, I had cleave under contract. Something side story here, a way built my own device. And it was interesting. I took a senior scientist from night vision lab with me out there and said, you know, you know, this is with permission, so, you know, I'm not stealing anything from him. And we look at it and I said, well, can you build it? He says, yeah, this is it's pretty straightforward. And he says, look, I have cut this much out of the world for me. And you can reorganize things in there, but don't tell me I have to relearn physics because I don't want to hear that. Pretty straightforward, honest. Now he could have screwed me in any number of ways, you know, just one loose wire or something. But he didn't, but he said, there's a piece missing and I said, well, that's the piece I'm going to worry about. This is the consciousness aspect of it. So anyway, we ran a series of experiments with this. Fast forward a bit and let's be 87 time frame. Max Thurman is the vice chief of staff of the Army. And he decides to look into all this weirdness. So he puts together a scientific panel from the National Resource Council to evaluate all of these things. I appeared before him several times. In fact, one of the things that bothered me is they had a whole series of behavioral scientists. And I don't know if you know Bob John from Princeton, okay, J.A.H. and John. He is the dean, well, then the dean of School of Engineering at Princeton, who is a central figure in all of this, because he had independently replicated, you know, that was doing the remote during experiments and he had a big thing on psychokinesis and all of that, impeccable credentials and whatnot. And we had tried to get Bob, you know, added to it, you know, and my admonition, so to go with the unites guys, but you know, we're the physical scientists, because that's where the experimentation is going. They didn't have Ray Heimann out there, if you know, Ray and all of the audience, a founding member of psychops, you know, the skeptics and whatnot. Well, he came to me, he actually had clearances of an all the secret, but it came and looked the stuff I had in the safe. But this time, I'm director of advanced system concepts for what was in the Army Laboratory Command no longer exists. But I had some stuff in the safe, I was able to show them the Soviet work and all that. And of course, then they were asking, experimenting on whether the controls were this. I said, you understand how we, this is from Spire, you're not getting their reports or something on it. This comment was, I didn't realize there was so much, so much, but so with the report, this committee has set up National Research Council, and I suggested that we take them to Cleves Lab, because that is pretty damn reliable. By the way, one of the things that had happened, I thought, was interesting, was that, as I said, he was a polygrapher. So we set up an experiment with me and said, okay, well then what I found was, I could beat the polygrapher, couldn't beat the white cells. You couldn't beat those? Yeah. And I let them scroll around a bit, you know, personal matters and things like that. So that was really interesting, it shows the connection, even though my white cells are separated in another room and shielded, etc. So, and you were affecting the blood cells? Yeah, well, I was doing it, you know, I'm an animal one, but I was, you know, trying to see what the limits would be. And so, you know, by the way, back to your features command, you know, this is what I was trying to say. We did this stuff. Well, somebody come and look at least, you know, check the records. So anyway, we set up, and the board is going to meet in San Diego, so I said, well, good thing, we'll take them to Cleves Lab. So what happens is, again, you want to know who's working today, not at work, yesterday. So I arrived several hours early, well, I've been in, I was already arrived in San Diego, but arrived at I Donate cells, just to make sure this thing is up and running. And frankly, we forget about it. And so what happens is the panel arrives, and we take two of their people, Steve White, the lab assistant, and they're going to donate the cells and ones go, ones donate one observing. And we take the rest of them to the classroom, basically, and, you know, and we've agreed that Cleves is going to give the background in history. I'm going to get up and say, by the way, I've independently replicated this. And there's that, now, Cleves is one of these people, when you say, what time is it, you get the history of chronometers, and he was going on, on, and going like, God, I can tell they're getting edgy and whatnot. So finally, it comes my turn to tell them that the world is not built the way they think it is. So I start talking about 90 seconds later, they run in the rooms, it's, what happened 90 seconds ago? And I said, well, that's when I started talking to them. And internally, yes, I'm saying, telling the National Academy of Science, the, you know, the review is wrong. Right. This is emotionally stimulating. Yes. And so anyway, we go over and we see, I mean, this thing, he has stoppers on, we're getting a ton of millibold, but it is just, by the way, I've got this tape. Oh, you do? No, I still, yeah. What happened is that Ray Heimund is one of the ran over and looked and ripped it off. Now, what's interesting is when the report comes out, not a word on this, no, yeah, the only thing that they thought was useful or potentially useful, can they have looked at remote viewing. I know they had been, but they had been curtailed, most of the classified stuff was not available to them in that. And, but they had agreed that NLP had some potentially some, some use, but the rest of the stuff we were doing were just nonsense. And I say, on this particular area, it doesn't, yeah, not a word about it. It happened right in, you know, the white crow flew right in front of you. See ya! It wasn't interested in this was CIA interested Well I mean I knew cat. Yeah, but these are all and once you find out into in this by the way It gets deeply into the UFO area a lot a lot more of its personal interest And people say you know if you'll know the certain names keep they do recurring throughout even though some of them have different views on it, but yeah, there's a lot of interpersonal relationships that become key and all of these things Well, we were not publishing you know reports on this is still what you'd call basic research But we definitely showed the efficacy of it and a relationship that could be added distance between the cells and again from the issue where we're thinking of going is You know is there's something we can do with foreign diplomats for instance where we keep some kind of sample On hand and if something happens you pull it out and you know Try to communicate again simple things like are you alive or dead and which would change a lot of you know What's your response would be you know what you're willing to risk because your cells were 20 miles away, weren't they? Well, there is one instance. It was more like 50 and Now I asked Cleeb about it and he says the problem is that you really probably can't tell but you have to get almost into Interstellar distances. I mean You know the Particles and whatnot. What's the distance and because we're dealing with things and speed and whatnot By the way getting back to Chris the experiment that was done with him in Donut Monroe in a you know sealed unit and yet he's doing which I think shows that this isn't electromagnetic You know the consciousness, but this is you know, we don't understand A lot more than we do understand in these areas. I can say that that was what happened after that is when the shit at the fan Back with you know and Bert was forced into retirement and not all that so a lot of it was curtailed and we bipers went to other areas Well speaking of UFOs Can you talk about advanced theoretical physics and what you're what you're doing there? Well You know I had put together a group well interagency group Her and my initial hypothesis. I was working with another guy who has kind of faded out and Doesn't want to be named them But when somebody who worked at Lockheed Sconquered Hypothesis was a Roswells real that there was something big going on and This is something to still emerge is that people want to get the word out So we put the group together and it was at the TSSC high-level Literally old boys had to know them had almost all of the intelligence community the major player certainly and the aerospace industry and People who were interested and got together and we're using B.D.M. Facilities interesting that got to the Joe Batic was the B of B.D.M. Bert by the way, and this time he also come because he when he retired He went and it became a vice president Intelligence at that B.D.M. So we had their facilities and we could use I put it together This is the early days of FOIA as well and one of the things that You know surprised people who created FOIA was the number of requests that they got for UFOs, so that's why I came up with the name in advance See I think nobody's gonna ask for you are dodging FOIA files on it. Yeah, sure absolutely and Yeah, well, let's see where this goes. We had several meetings By the way one requirement that did not hold was no records So you know the intent was that there wouldn't be any written records now eventually I had briefings that How you was from On and on is this declassified of this. This is declassified by now. Yeah, this is declassified It never was classified never was classified well Yeah, like I say this is there's not official right By the way one of the things that I like point out this is And if you see with us app and a tip in that most of these come from the bottom up. Yep This is not ones where, you know The hierarchy says do this and and it comes down We're probably getting into some of the people who are involved, but it was um You know, so we said for some position was if we do this Certainly gonna get noticed at some point and people Yep, come in slap our hands and say don't do that Which never did happen What was it when you spun up that group? What were you trying to find? Well Hey, we were still dealing with hard craft kinds of things that were going on and who would be involved and you know if there was a project now I Eventually I moved up to food chain higher and higher and I did brief or interact with The director or deputy director of all of those three letter agencies And the story I tell one of the most interesting one the global agency and By the way the answer was always the same was we don't do that and Then but the guy says hey, we don't do that. There's no requirements to even report on it Be I'll tell you about the ones I saw So here's the guy who's now head of agency lots of resources has had personal experience and he went back into Things that he had seen years before it says they were flying around doing things I knew we didn't have the capability for But that did not transition to his son so I'll put together a small group to go look for it But these are the kinds of things that run counter to with the quote Legacy program. Yep. Could they have lied to me? quite possibly everybody You know and these weren't like a week apart going down to the call and all that's what's happened over years So you didn't believe in a retrieval program. I guess until Grush and that those groups came forward, right until what till David Grush and Some of those other guys because you've changed a little bit. Yes This is where I get to a my my data does not match. Yeah, and in fact As you know, I've built with quite a few of the senior folks and in that I've not met Grush and respect him and his background and that The tween's just don't go together. Yeah, and I've told you now The agencies and last forward of bet we decide to transition to a formal funded program So where's the logical place to go is SDI SDI at the time is you know the biggest program in defense is five billion at the time kind of uniquely Meeting is set up with me and I have an entourage that going in and meet was General Abramson three-star commander of SDI and My experience was quite different and we were walked in and Introduced who's the agencies involved and all of that And so I started UFO 101 Wait, wait, wait, who are you guys really? I mean this to me is like a guy Dear caught in the headlights, and I don't think he was faking Could have been if it was it was quite an act Win around the room and different agencies for NSA was one that the guy gave his stuff and The thing that stunned me there was we were giving him the Soviet data and He says where did you get that and he was like like he did not understand our intercept capability. That got scary because it was in, can they do that? And I said, yeah, I think they're pretty good at it. That's why this goes on an hour or two. We finally get to the end. And I say, yeah, we'd like to get blessing and we'll follow the program and goes, I can't touch this. He says, if I get caught doing this, I will, you know, just lose all credibility in front. So the point was I don't, well, in fact, he went on to say, look, you got my attention. I'm an old fighter pilot and you got my attention. And we are soon going to be monitoring more of space than it had ever been done before. If you can tell me what to look for, I'm willing to put some algorithms in. But if I get caught doing this, and this is where the people who are outside just do not understand the Pentagon. In fact, some of the key people, and I told them to take a decade off and go learn how the system works. 'Cause it is terribly complex, it is terribly competitive. And that includes in the black world as well as the white world. And everybody, I think it's one of my favorite comments, was, I'm gonna go find the money when I was working in the building. And you go, there are norms out there with pots of gold or something that you go, what means you're gonna steal that from somebody else's program or point as you have to reprogram the puns. And that occurs in the black world just as it does in the white world. He did lose a big $1. He did? But that's from other, but the point with his point was, well, people, because his program was so big and visible that, you know, everybody looking for money, he will word you look as people who have money. - Sure. - They're the banks, you know. And he did, and it was shortly after that I got a very, I am convinced of a related call. It says, we wanted to move to a new assignment. And it was one you had to be a colonel and breathe. And I said, you gotta be shitting that. I am running the highest high tech stuff in the military and you want me to go do what? And, you know, the word general still well came back into the program, 'cause he was a supporter. We didn't cover this, he had intervened before another side story about how we ended up in the income, actually, and before that, was that the new mental battlefield article had come out. And I had attended a couple of conferences in the Washington area and weird stuff and all that. And there was a colonel's wife who was running one of them. Jean Eek, and she was friends with the General Stillwell's wife. Stillwell is now a retired four star, who is the number two guy in the Pentagon. So what happens was a meeting gets up. And I remember I'm a munchkin down and literally in the bottles of the Pentagon. So a meeting is set up because of the new mental battlefield I was supposed to go meet with him. So at about 12, 30, this particular day, I don't know what's unique here. You know, munchkins do not go see Sektaf and Deputy Sektaf without a headbop, or you know, flag officers who were there. That didn't happen. That was one-on-one me and him. Were you nervous about what is the general want? Or you knew what he wanted? - This was just a generic coming and talk to him. But this had been set up again through the wives and all of that. So anyway, I went up and we had a very interesting conversation. He says, "Well, who do you work for?" I said, "Work for General Treffery." And he was the inspector general and blah, blah. No, okay, but that was really interesting. Thank you, and I left, I said, "Oh, that was interesting." And I go back down to my office at about one o'clock and about four, 15, the chief of staff, G comes in and says, "Tomorrow morning, you don't work here anymore." - That was that? - Yeah, move me. - So you had to take that assignment. You couldn't refuse it. - Well, I, well, another war story, a friend of mine, who had worked at the Military Personnel Center and I bumped into him and I'm a Pentagon one day and he's looking, he's, this is years later. And he says, "You know, I had to keep your file in my desk drawer 'cause we had nowhere to put it." - Right. - You know, and like I said, the promotion thing, and I got handed from the time, you know, I made major, you know, on, I was never assigned by the system again. Until they pissed me off and I said, "Thanks," and then Los Alamos came along. - And then Nidz came along. Can you hear that? - Well, that's two iterations. - Yes. - That's after Los Alamos and-- - So can you talk about that Sunday morning in your kitchen? I think how, how was there, Jacques was there and you get a phone call from Bob? - Well, that's another coincidence. - Right. So, you know, I was working at Los Alamos, I lived in Santa Fe, I had a meeting with a number of people and Jacques and Hal were two of them. I forget who all was there. But it's Sunday morning, so we're getting ready to take people back to Elbuquerque for the flights and the phone rings. And as I am Bob Bigelow, I've heard about you, are there any areas that might be of interest? The rest of they say is kind of, as a matter of fact, there was a guy who did get funded. He was there, Ferris Williams, had since died. But we got an independent, you know, a project. You know, this is before Nidz and all of that. In fact, he came over and we went to the Santa Fe Institute, looked at, he said, maybe once. And well, Miragell Mon is kind of the guy at the Santa Fe Institute, and this is chaos area that they're working. And I had other friends who were supportive who worked with them. It's not probably not a good fit, and then he decided, well, he would create Nidz, but he wanted it to be in Las Vegas and that's what brought me here. What turned Bob onto Skinwalker Ranch? How did he learn about that? There were some articles, as far as I know, there were some articles that were published, probably in Jesuit news, and about Sherman's and the ranch and that, exactly how he made contact, I don't know. I was with him the day that he physically bought the ranch and the first ones have spent the night. The first, again, of the Nidz peoples, I mean, obviously, you know, Terry and Gwen were a thing. And it is a very, very strange place, no doubt about that. I mean, the incidents had happened. Having said that, I'm a bit of a digression in you. I lost a bubble there a minute. That's right. I have plenty more questions. That first night, I think you said nothing happened. Nothing happened the first thing unique happened now. But eventually saw some things there. I know this is one of the questions that comes up. By the way, it translates to Chris as well. One of the things I asked him, is that the place or is it the person? I was going to ask you that. And we have, you know, lots of strange things have happened around me, but as far as, you know, I have seen some things and all that, but they tend to be, I tend to be more of a catalyst if you will, and Jesse Ventura is who I was thinking of. That's right. That he came in and interviewed me. And he said, well, can I go up there and go out and say, you know, hey, probably not, but be, you'd probably be bored. Because the problem is that these amazing incidents have happened. But it's not like every night, you know, they go out tonight. We're going to have X, Y, Z happen. Controids of the program. One of the reasons they shoot rockets is because they got, you know, an incident, there's something to photograph. But, yeah, but some of the things that did happen. was just absolutely beyond belief. - For example, is this a baby goat, or is it a baby calf? - Well, the calf is one, what that particular incident is that Terry's got at the ranch. Terry stayed on and he can't talk about the cabing season. And he walks out and he goes out and people are familiar with the ranch. Now, perfectly flat. He'll scarptment to the north and the trees further out. Sponsor, newborn calf and tags it in ways that they tag it to identify it to the mother. Drives across the, again, white open fields, 10 o'clock, bright sunny day, et cetera. And he finds another newborn calf and he tags it in ways it. They comes back, calf once dead. Mother's going on, it was mine. There's a huge amount of stuff is just missing. - From the animal? - Yeah, it's been eviscerated, exsanguinated, and you know, where the tag was, was cut off, looked like a laser cuts and all of that. The science board looked at, we had Terry come in. Well, we, George and Net was working with it. It was a DMV and it was flowing up that day. We had Terry secure the sign, got our vet on site and all of that. People said, "Well," and the exsanguination of the blood went into the ground. I had suggested them they go to nearby slutter house, get blood and come back and poured it on the ground. And weeks later, you would say, you know, blood was poured on the ground here. So there was no way that this went. The science board, the SAB, that, as you know, world-class sorts of folks, hell and jokin' kits and all of them are involved. They're on the, it's on the website with the world. Was that, whatever happened, didn't happen there. Wow. How do you explain that? Again, we know the, in our reality, we know the elapsed time, 45 minutes, ish bright sunny day. We looked at all of the possibilities of how predators kill in that. None of them do anything like this. You had cameras on there yet? You had cameras yet? Not in that area, no. Okay. No. And now, I've got to say, Brandon, of course, has put in a lot more censors than doing it. 24 is far more than we did. Not exactly sure of the sequencing on that, 'cause we did have cameras that were facing here, what they now call the command center looking to the west. And there is one of the most interesting incidents to me. You've got, you know, two cameras here, two cameras in front of us. So the ones in front, you can see. You have cameras that are up about 20 feet high, comes down about half a roll of duct tape, holding them in, PVC, going back into, you know, they're recording. So, you know, when recording, then what happens is in the front cameras, the wires are pulled loose up at the top. You come down, the PVC is pulled out. There's about three foot chunk of wire. It's just missing from this. Now, what was really interesting about it, this was kind of early evening. And it just happens that the cattle, at that time, were right around the post. And we know that if anybody approaches the cattle, they would scatter, nothing would happen. The other thing is this camera that's looking straight at it, and we have the second and the third time-lapse photography on it, nothing, how did all of this stuff happen and not get recorded. Because it doesn't want to be recorded. Well, like I say, it's a very, very strange place. And they had, you know, many more incidents. But it's not like it's a daily thing. It's not like you can go on, and then, Brandon now, when if you go up, you have to sign literally, life releases and all of that, to go on. I think as people, I think the staff, you know, people who work for him are really good. You mentioned something about pre-cognitive with the ranch. Does that mean that the future exists and can be read? Or is that mean they can sense your intent? Two different questions, and you say they. I don't know yet. I'm not, yeah. Well, that's why I use it yet, and I have no idea how I was finding it. When you get into theoretical aspects, is it possible that the past, present and future are all concurrent? So it's not, you know, time frame, and it gets into almost imponderable. I actually use the blood one, because it seems to know that we would bore the blood, and, you know, before this sort of, it would become another conundrum. Yeah, more and more possibilities that just get to be terribly, terribly complex, and hard to. the issue of what we do see in this, and I think all of these phenomena, are that the. our concept of time is wrong, as we know it, as we experience it, as opposed to, you know, what time may or may not be. Because there's intent with these actions, but we don't know what it wants. She seems to want to mess with us. Well, but you've mentioned something I think is bigger, and that's the issue of intent in all of these areas. What's in, you know, for people who become psychic or work with these things, intention seems to impact and maybe precipitate reality. But then how can that happen in the future if it's happening concurrently? That's interesting. Any hitchhiker effect with you and some of this stuff? Well, you've seen my slide, I guess, on. I have. And I think that's bigger. The answer for me is no, with others, so what people know what we're talking about, you know what I'm saying? There are many reports of people who have left the ranch and start having strange experiences in the hitchhiker specifically refers to beings or entities or something as well as a number of psychic kinds of events that have happened. I do know that many of them happen, the slide that I use. And I think this gets to be problematic when you get to how are you going to study this, particularly from a government's perspective. We start on this. I don't think governments. I don't see how they can be involved with these sorts of things. It's one thing for you to study flying saucers, widgets, even orbs and that. To study werewolves is something quite different. The werewolf story is real. The individual may choose to come forward. I have met him. You met the werewolf? No, I met the person. He met the person. He is a very senior individual living in the Washington area who had visited the ranch and wife looked out and standing on hind legs in the backyard with red eyes to the werewolf. And they go running off on bank length. How do you. I think from a political perspective, they would be suicide to go in. Of course. And enough to say, I want to spend money to study UFOs and heart widgets. And now we're making a case that's even permissible and it's one of the advantages that's come forward is making it permissible to study these things. But to now say, I'm also going to sell the whole field of cryptozoology. All of them, for instance, talks about being a skin walkers in the Pentagon, but talks about a dinosaur, small, but a dinosaur walking by on that. And you've seen in the program the whole dire wolf thing, things that have been extinct for ten thousand years and so how do you justify, or should, is this the proper role for government? Yeah, I think this is where we're going. government's kind of got a bomb. This is not what governments are to govern, and they are to do certain specific tasks in that. One of the issues that you brought up in another broadcast has to do with the Department of Defense on the saying is I think it's the wrong question and also what you have to remember is it is the Department of Defense. By the way, I'm guilty on this. In my UFO book, I said there are two major issues. One was defense and the other was air of safety. But the issue of, you know, advanced technology can make that sort of case. The plus side is, again, it just has to understand how governments work. Actually, DOD would find this great, because this is how you justify it. Now, we used to hypothesize the Soviet days, you know, what's the Soviet threat and all that? You're always projecting threats. Well, if this was a threat, in a way, that's good, because that can justify funding. Yep. You need a boogeyman. Yeah. Oh, long was. We used to, we used to hypothesize what we call FST3, which was future Soviet tank 3. Now, future Soviet tank 1 turned out to be the 290, you know, that did. But if you looked at the capabilities that we were giving to 2 and 3, which means I need more money to do more research, maybe they can do that. I mean, never ending cycle. But for them to say they wanted it. Now, of course, what they do, they, the Department of Defense is supposed to defend from threats, though we define basically everything as a threat. Is that why the Air Force was at the ranch? I don't believe they were. I thought they were there for four years. You don't think so? Air Force? Yeah. No, you don't think of it. But it needs to get an inter-service rivalry, but I found them the most difficult to work with on this topic for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And then all you know, they would classify the words electro-magnetic. I ran into some of this between Kirtland and Los Alamos and whatnot. The infamous Kirtland? Yeah, not. Yeah. But again, with the problem, one of the things I think is going to happen with Arrow, for instance, is my experience in, well, he said, I personally had survived a lot of weird things and all of that in the accident of a bullet, but eventually got shown the door as well. This is not what you'd call career enhancing. No. I mean, if you're going to move up any of these, there are certain things you're supposed to do in gates and whatnot. This is not one of them. I do mentioned about they don't want to fund a werewolves. Is this a naming problem? You know, the foes know U.I.P.'s yes. No. U.I.P.'s change and it does extrapolate a bit in the broader phenomenon. The one he wrote up with Jeremy underwater, for instance, and I hope you get Tim Gallaudet in talk about, you know, underwater aspects of this, which we've known forever. But, you know, the name Fisbetter, UFOs, did come with baggage. No doubt about that, because objects weren't all flying. Downside, though, is you broaden that too much and I believe Lou ran into this with funding in A-Tap, because they were trying to do it unclassified from that and people say, "I do advance threats." Sure. Sure. Yeah. Again, just gets back to not understanding the funding cycles are absolutely vicious. Before I get into death and consciousness, I just wanted to remind us that you wanted to read a passage from your book at some point. So don't let me forget. Well, okay, unless you want to fire it off now. Well, by the way, the first line that I wrote in the book is UFOs are real, so that's a starting point. The end is clear, the universe is far more complex than we ever imagined. We are not close to solving the enigma posed by UFOs, rather we are still on the front end of defining the fundamental issues and boundaries. And I think notion that we're going to get quick answers or something or that there is, I guess the one thing I would disagree with in the Secrets, Skinwalker Ranch is the secret and I would make it secrets. I mean, it's not that simple, whatever, because there are so many different things going on there and in other places as well. I guess we're part of that same consciousness that whatever is doing weird things at the ranch, we're all part of that. Again, it seems like a dark force. Well, is it dark? We're just terribly difficult to contemplate is the notion of that everything is one that you and I are not separate. I think that one of the greatest illusions is the illusion of separation, but it's very hard to contemplate how we can be the same and yet different than I heard you mention the other one in the war. I'm dealing with some folks, young ladies now who are developing a program that they hope to raise consciousness in general population and how you explain this in term, it is terribly almost incomprehensible to begin with. It's one of the reasons things I like about Evan Alexander's books on it. He talks about these levels of complexity and impossible for us, but if we are all one, you take Larry Dossies, you know, you know, not non-local reality and come on. Certainly things like war make absolutely no sense, however, and you hear this, you know, by doing bad things, you're harming yourself is just hard to rectify from the physical perspective that we live in today. I would also mention that you can look at the Greek. One of our problems, they say the answer is love, you know, kind of what does that mean is that the Greeks had 12 different words for various forms of love. So, you know, that's not a catch all that's going to be useful. No, tell me about that eighth night when you were in the tent in Siberia for a bunch of nights, night number eight was weird. Well, I should have been saying, well, no, we were in Mongolia and near the Siberian border, we had been up right on the way we were chasing reindeer shaman, if don't what shaman's all over the world. What's a reindeer shaman? Well, the people that heard reindeer's, okay, I mean, like we have cattle, they have reindeer. Oh, I thought it was something they turned into reindeer's at night or something. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, the people live with reindeer, very unique area. We had the backstory here, we flew to Ulumbata, which is interesting. You fly into Genshis Khan airport and say that Genshis Khan hotel and etc. Then we flew from Ulumbata to Marum, which is a small city west. By the way, Mongolia is a big place, let's say three times the size of France and that. Then we got in a land rover, drove north for on a road for about an hour, paid road, all of a sudden turned left and drove into the mountain, it was like driving into the Rockies without a road. And we did that for kind of a number of days. This particular incident, we had driven cross country, we were living at a small tent, you know, and the point is we could turn it every day upside down and shake it out and clear it, no, I got to pop up. There were three tents, my wife and I were in one driver and guides and the others. The whole bunch of other stuff that I'm trying to fit into, take your time. whole trip but it was just an amazing experience. So anyway, we, this particularly we had dealt with, not shaman, that to look up the shaman's name that had been with doing a healing thing. We had just come back. We had gone, shaman ball. No, bold is a different one. He's one that we were the thing precipitates out. I almost brought that along. I do have these things. I keep them in the safe because they tend to disappear if you don't have it. Bold we had seen going in. She then we had sapped and we had gone on horseback. The trucks couldn't go any farther. We went in two days, two days in, two days out and right on all the point here, Siberia, they don't even know where the border is. We were not going to really remote remote areas. But we had come back and we were sleeping on a shesco river. Like I say, my wife and I were on and we had bedmats on there. Wake up the next morning, lying between the two mats is a fifty pence Australian coin. You didn't bring that in? No. But I don't believe any people went in the night and threw one in or something like that. You're up on, you can say, near Siberia and here appears the fifty pence Australian coin. What do you think that meant? It meant there was a fifty pence Australian coin and they had no idea how it showed up there. What were you doing out in the wilderness? What were you looking for? The reindeer shaman. I don't know if you're going to get into it. My wife's a double J with a horse gun. We have dealt with shaman's over the world. This was a trip that was afforded us. Again, we're the only people, the only foreigners that are involved. I had a guide who knew where they were. Now, you have to know where they are because they follow the reindeer or the reindeer. It was getting warm and one of the problems was that they would go up and lie down on the glaciers or small glaciers all over the place. They walked over them and that. We had to set up several ceremonies that were going. It was very interesting. We were a UFO connection comes in. We got up there and they live in like teapies that are all separate. By the way, one of the things that Chinese have done is they get solar panels and things. They get a little bit of electricity and whatnot. It was interesting that they tended to be, stay in their individual teapies. I'm walking by one and I hear somebody speaking English. That's weird. I found out I was alone. Well, she's native. She lives there. She used to live in Colorado. It had been there long enough. It turned out to scrap out of our guide because they thought she was a witch and could be witch them and whatnot. Why did they think that? It was part of the folklore. I know it's a white file, but why just doesn't apply in some of these cases. Anyway, I started talking to her and I asked her about UFOs and she told me a whole story about how this valley used to be kind of an alleyway and they would see them on a consistent basis. Now, this is an area where they're late summer but get sealed off. I mean, once you're in, you're there for the duration, kind of like Antarctic or something, but you don't travel in and out. In fact, it was interesting because I'd asked her why you lived in Colorado and you're now living here full time and I'd given up on Western society and that. But did say, no, there was a period in which there were lots of UFOs coming to the valley and they would see them and kind of routine matter. Were they craft or orbs? They were craft as things that they would see. I think you hit some of those things I've mentioned earlier is what you mean by a UFO. And addition of orbs is fairly new wrinkle to it in the question of whether you should and he gets into consciousness and orbs and all of that. But now, this was a traditional craft. Now, one of the things that heard you in Germany, I think, was what's happened over time is that you see white GSE different ones and different kinds of things and going back in the 1800s with air ships literally and people dropping anchors and talking and all of that. And yeah, that does seem to me. But this I think remotes to or this issue of consciousness. Where's our consciousness has to, you know, what it is in my view, when it seems to do is stay a step ahead of where we are, but not beyond comprehension. Right. Like orbs is the newest thing, but another generation could be something different. Yeah. So you're looking for shaman. I've heard you say you've tried ayahuasca and you've not a fan of it. Yeah. What did you see when you were in there? Oh, the psychedelics are absolutely brilliant. There's no down. Can confirm. I can confirm that. Okay. Well, we have dealt with ayahuasca. I mean, for me, with sons of Damay, the son of Damay is a religion based on ayahuasca is the substance that's going with it. We make it down and we did in Quartiba in southern Brazil as well. Most of the stuff is in the Amazon in a Kitos. They've also been in Ecuador. First of all, this is never going to become, you know, a recreational drug. No. The side effects that come along are significant, which is politely. And you also, some of the communities learned how to work with this and it's against the first few times that you, you know, are mostly she, golly, look at this, you know, the right things and all of that. But what's most interesting with her, this is mostly second, what would happen, by the way, at these ceremonies, is that I would normally, I've only tried a couple of times, I use it once. I know the time was some of the Damay in Brazil. But being the one who was not drug drug, I would run all the recorders because I have the manual dictionary left to the function with it. I can say that in my view, psychopharmacology does not address the issues that's involved. I have seen tape, people take small amounts and have transformational experiences. I've seen them take huge amounts and have no effect whatsoever. It gets back to intention and preparation. I do think that if you're going to do it, by the way, the word of caution out there, really do if you're going to do this, know the shaman, or with whom you're working. Particularly as it has gotten popular, that there are some less than scriptulous folks, particularly for women being in there because, you know, but you really do need, having said that, and I do see there are now talking about some PTSD, you know, some research going into it, you know, shaman and them talk about using Abogaine. That surprised me a bit, but under controlled conditions, the stuff from Africa, that should kill you if you're not careful. And one of the problems with all of these are there's no quality control. And I found that each shaman kind of has their own recipe, and they kind of put stuff together and they look at me a lot. And the same with dosage, they look at you and say, "Well, just the amount you need." And I'm giving. Now, I would recommend going to like the Lucium with a doctor. Yeah, well, yeah, just not to be taken lightly, but I do think there are effects that you know and PTSD was that this was life. She was there with the guys we do with Ron Wheelock was known as the Gringo Shaman down in the kitos. Interestingly, one of the few that have not jacked up prices and all that as it has become better known. I was going to tell you, it's always experienced the most exchange she had a world that goes to and was recognized and whatnot. The most amazing thing though was not on drugs, but at home you're in Vegas and they came here. Who she saw and the DMT world came to Vegas? Yeah, well, wait, wherever. This is a mental state. What did she see? Well, just that, you know, they were coming apparently asking for help, but again, this is a mental state. It's not a physical being showing up and showing there. By the way, the most unusual thing that I saw, we were at, you know, contemplate. These are African, the Boudus ceremonies and all that. And we had gone, we've gone several, but on Bunda and on Conta Blay or a couple of these are from West Africa. They came over. We were in Cortiba, Brazil and went to Conta Blay, ceremony, no drugs. And they started out, and now there's about, in this case, there are about ten foreigners there, their westerners. And there'll be two, three hundred people who were there who attended these ceremonies all of the time. And so they said there was a priestess there that said, "Anybody want it?" Well, Victoria always volunteers, she runs down on it. And this woman goes, she's going down and doing the thing. We're in the possession now, okay? Real full-scale possession. Your wife. And all of a sudden, she's out on the floor spinning. We got photos of this. She's spinning. Now these are people who were used to seeing possession and not with gringos. Did you expect that? No, we didn't. As a matter of fact, I don't know. I was taking pictures and that guy grabs me. He said, "You're a reporter." I said, "No, that's my wife. She'll be okay." And her description of it is stuffing, allowing this entity, an adult body to experience whatever. She has no idea of what went on during that period. But it was kind of okay. But it was really dramatic. So she doesn't remember seeing anything in there? No, no, no. This is, I think, allowing them to experience a human thing temporarily. Now we've had other. We were in, probably don't know, Vittoria, Brazil. I was down talking to this, because it was not least there. And it had been brought down, talking to the government, to their military police. And had looked up and she had found a Buddhist ceremony. And well, a Umbanda ceremony in Vittoria. And we convinced our guy, he had an amazing guy with us, who was a special assistant to the governor. I happened to have had a genetic imagery in that. And I also had a military police major. So we're going into the Fovalla with, you know, to say we were greeted with skepticism. You know, true. So anyway, we go in and explain who are you? To Americans, you know, kind of weird. And they've heard about them and all that. So they let us in. And the ceremony starts and it goes on for several hours. And so they're going to take a break. And they're going to be admitted now getting later afternoon. So our guys and I've got to leave this. I'll leave and I'll come back and pick you up. And they came to Vittoria and said, "Don't know, you can't leave." And it turns out, you know, there are other people we've never seen before, who recognize her. Wow. And we've fed that before and we've had this in Rio too in the ceremony with saying, you know, here's the goddess to call and all about. Pretty, you say, unusual circumstance. Is there any connection with the DMT world and NDEs? Well, is there any connection? There are those who think that DMT, you know, understand, the myth of triptomaine is the precipitating agent. It is not the thing. It allows access to them. I would equate it to more like it's turning on the set. You know, the stuff that you're now accessing that channel, if you will. NDEs, there are folks who think that you can get a spontaneous release of DMT or something. Mary and I talked about it. No, does not believe that to be the case. That we're spontaneously generating it. Because that gives you the potential for saying we're talking about hallucinations. But like I say, her case is one of the pre-cognitive years in advance. In general, I don't want to put in anything that suggests that we're dealing with hallucinations. Because that's not the issue. Now, people interpret these things in very well, various ways. The other thing I said, I was the president of ions for a long time. And we had no staff whatsoever, so letters would come in. I would answer them. And one of them was, well, I wasn't close to death, but I was out of body. I had this. I had that and whatnot. And you also, with NDEs, most of them are spontaneous. And you have no idea whether people are physically close to death or not. I use Mary Neal's case because underwater for 30 or 35 minutes, there's no doubt that we had lost physical capability. I've heard this from a number of others. However, most of the cases are spontaneous outside accidents, illness or something like this. So they're not instrumented. You know, the pat on playing on name. Because the panel Reynolds is the most probably most famous case in this, but she's not alone. And this is the case in which a young woman had a brain aneurysm deep in the brain. She had some small children and was doing a very risky operation. Survival 50/50 wouldn't have done it except for young and whatnot. And the point here was that they had stopped the brain. Well, they had to, they drained the blood out of the body. But they had a stacist cope on. So they're firing electrical charge in measuring the cortical activity of the brain. The sensation of heart, sensation of breathing, sensation of cortical electrical activity as brain. By medical definition, this is not near death. This is death itself. And it talks about a number of things. She's one out of the room. Big one was complaining. They were playing hotel, California, which they thought was inappropriate. You can check in, but you can never check out. Awareness of everybody was doing at that time. And then goes off and meets with Hoaches. It's like the one with marriages as the original awareness at the location, but then going off into others. And again, in different time space dimensions as we know it. There were a few others. Was it Barbara? Was it Dr. Barbara who was an anesthesiologist who similarly had an instrumented death where you can, you know, confirm. you know, what their physical state is at the time and so therefore you cannot attribute it to hallucination or something. But I think when you get the transference of information that, you know, proves out, proves to be accurate, you know, Bruce Grayson, because Bruce and I recommend his book after, is one of the key ones, Bruce is a good friend, but he talks about what got him going is a psychiatrist in the hospital in University of Virginia going down the hall and talking to people and then the person say, "Oh, you talk to him and you're the one who talks about being a spot on his tie and all of that." So you get, you know, externally verifiable information that there's not any normal means of that being transferred. My dad had one during an operation and he knew it was going on. How it shared death experiences, have you looked into those? Oh, you can't not. Let me think of us just a bit, but this has to do with the progression of NDEs. I say we came into it. Well, ions was formed late 70s. We were talking about near-deckment and we would, frankly, and I never would have considered having mediums or things like that involved a whole after death communication. They're now the rock stars at the conferences and whatnot. So you have had kind of a progression from NDEs, which is about a shared death experiences, is one where there's multiple people, not they're dying, but that are sharing the experience. Some of them continue on and the humans, and they talk about things like physical changes that take place, the shapes of the room, another one that's getting terminal acidity is an issue that's now arising and you can sometimes get shared. This is where people who have been mentally incapacitated for a long period of time shortly before death start talking to relatives and seeing energy. Even when their brain is diseased, like from Alzheimer's or something, they're lucid. Yes. This is a field that's evolving. So you have instant near-death communication or near-death studies, which is this real kind of thing, and these cases are in the mediums. I mean, I was surprised that flying out and traveling quite a bit and you talk to people, and how many people say, "Now, again, this gets back to all of us there, so it's a matter of awareness and acceptability that it's okay to talk about these things and openness." It's a time ghost in any number of other movies and TV programs has now become kind of standard issue things, at all. As you talk about this stuff with Bob Bigelow at all, I know that it's very, very into the field. Bob Bigelow, specifically near-death experiences. We had Jeffrey Mischloven here talking to one of Bob's awards. Of course, I know Jeff, I know Jeff's a psychologist and he's lived here across town. Jeff had an advantage over everybody because he had been running thinking aloud and now new thinking aloud. So we had decades worth of just highest quality people that he could acquire. Not quite sure. Some of that would get personal stuff with him. I think if he wants to talk about it, he could. Obviously, he had had the wrench and he came to an island's conference where they announced it at the thing. Initially, the contest was not on a radar. That is something that evolved later. But continuation of consciousness is something he's been interested in for a long time. Well, the first time I met him was at MIT in '92. John Mack was having a day preacher. He had a conference on the productions. And that's where I gave the first talk on correlation. The bad news was that I had to go right after John. But having said that, I first met Bob there, but I was just a handshake. What I did not know at the time was that his son had died like within a month before that. So I had had interest. I found a leader. How many? He went to lots and lots of mediums and very familiar. He had brought Dean Raiden into UNLV for a while. There were the precursor there. And then they set up the Big Go chair of consciousness at UNLV. Charlie Tart held that initially. And then Raiden came in for a while. Bad news was that stopped funding it. And they were eating principle. And eventually that ran out. But he's had a long interest. And some personal tragedies that have happened there. I'm sure have driven certain factors. And so he decided to set it up and brought them back. Well, you covered this stuff for so long. Was there anything in your research that you believed and then turned out that you were wrong or the opposite? Something that you didn't believe that you were surprised it was true? Well, that's an interesting question. I would say there were a lot of things that I would have thought were highly speculative that I'm now willing to accept. Well, we talked about progression in NDEs. And the answer to your question is yes. And that has to do with ADC. And some things we're doing in after-death communication. You know Gary Schwartz. I'll be hopefully talking to him tomorrow. We talked periodically. But he was with. He's not retired, but the University of Arizona. And working on something called solephone. Solephone. Yeah. What they're trying to do is to instrument the direct communications. And this is ostensibly with the help of some people that you would know, you know, by, you know, immediately by name and that. It seems to be involved from the other side. What he calls team, hey, is trying to assist in the communication. But this is, you know, in the 80s, never would have touched them because that's, you know, outside the realm. That's not scientific. And now, now you're getting the point. And Gary, I was looking up because he's got a number of books out of that on this. And he's, like the reason we didn't talk yesterday is he was editing the book that is forthcoming on the future of solephone. Oh, coming up on two hours. So I think we'll say goodbye, Colonel John Alexander. Thank you very much. It's been a lot of your local. So anytime you want to come back in, because we didn't talk about directed energy weapons, non-lethal leaks, a lot more to cover. Whatever, we'll get it. We'll get it. That's it. Goodbye, everybody. That was Colonel John Alexander. We covered fireproof shamans, spoon-bending parties for army generals, a werewolf in a Washington backyard, and a coin that appeared overnight in a tent in Mongolia. The career of Green Berets, Los Alamos, the Pentagon, well, that's all public record. But some stories needed checking. Start with the one that sounds made up. John said the army brought in Tony Robbins. Yeah, that Tony Robbins prefame to teach soldiers to shoot using neuro-linguistic programming. And that's real. John helped run it, and Robbins still tells the story. Everyone qualified it in a day. The army fixed its piston scores with the future king of the firewalking seminar. I love this job. Now, the white cells. Researchers wired people's own white blood cells to a chart recorder in another room. John's personal result, he could beat the polygraph, but he couldn't beat his cells. When the army convened a scientific panel to judge the weirdness, John took them to the lab. Two panel members donated cells, minutes into John's talk, the man watching the recorder ran in and asked what happened. The record is real, enhancing human performance, National Research Council 1988, and it found no evidence for any of this. The lab visit wasn't in there, so we have his worth. But the story that got me isn't from the lab, in the late 70s, John attended a workshop on Death and Dying, then nailed a teacher, a thank-you-no. She was Elizabeth Kugleros, the five stages of Greece, Kugleros. Weeks later, she called his office and asked to meet, and she told him, "I know a thousand people in Atlanta, and I chose you, and I have no idea why." John heard himself answer, "I think I'm supposed to ask you a question." She ended up running his doctoral committee, that part is on paper. The phone call isn't. "Look, I can't follow John everywhere. The werewolf is where I tap out." And I say that as a man who pays his mortgage with werewolf stories, but everything I couldn't check out came back true, so the rest gets patients, and I don't hand out much of that. But John earned it the boring way, with paperwork. He's local, so there will be around to him. John's books are "reality denied" and UFOs, myths, conspiracies, and realities, both on Amazon, both awesome. And his site is [email protected], that's john@balexander. Everything I mentioned is linked below. I covered the Army's Spoon Benders in my first Earth-Italian episode. That was about John Doe, I think, yeah, I mentioned it in that episode. That's a fun one. Oh, that's the men at Staircoats. That's about George Queen who's John, because you know that. I don't think we've brought him up. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and other you, I appreciate it. I love my UFOs and parin' on my phone, as well as mirrors it, so I'm saying it like I should. But then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends, and it never ends, I know it never ends. I'll be your the cracker, and I got stuck inside my old home, where then came out truck, I'll be in only two hours. Did Stanley Kubrick bake the moon, land in a lone, on a film set, I wore the shadow people there? The ride's well, maybe it's just for the smiling men, and I'm told, and his name was Cole. I can't agree, I'm casted with the fidget, and the fish on Thursday nights with day two, and when I'm happy, I'll do the night. Oh, ever wanted what you just did to the truth, so the waffles on your feet all through the light. The Muffman side and van, the solar storm still come, to Agatha, the secret city underground. Mysterious number stations, planets are phoned to, plastic stockade, and wet the dark watchers' smiles. I'm in a simulation, don't you worry though, the black night's had a light and told me so, I can't believe. I'm casted with the fidget, and the fish on Thursday nights with day two, and when I'm happy, I'll do the night. Because she is a camel, and we can't love the dance when the feeling is right on the way we stand by. Oh, ever wanted what you just did to the truth, so the waffles on your feet all through the light.