The Baldwin Group

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This is the oil and gas startups podcast, where we showcase emerging technology and the stories of industry founders, investors, and leaders, with your hosts Jake Corley and Colin McClellant. All right, what's up oil and gas startups? Got a long time show. I feel like it's been a long time in the making. I got my friend Summer from the Baldwin group in here today. Summer, we first met several years ago. I believe on LinkedIn. It's like, who's this lady messaging me about like you're just like going off about insurance and oil and gas and like so passionate about it. Got me thinking about insurance all the time now, and so like you're very effective in your communication about important entrances. And so real quick, trying to figure out how I wanted to segue into this show, but we're going to be talking about insurance and oil and gas. And first, tell me about who you are, what your background is, and then we're going to talk about like all the doomsday shit and insurance and oil and gas and how operators can operate in this industry and what they should be looking for on, you know, their lens through insurance. So first tell me who you are. Well, like every person that works in insurance, nobody wakes up and says like, I'm going to be an insurance professional. That's it. It took a global pandemic to like push me. You know, I don't remember any kids in the elementary year book saying that they wanted to be in the entrance and industry. So you're on point there. I'll never forget sitting down at like a Jones day discussion, talking about litigation through claims and he begins the conversation with razor hands if we actually like grew up and wanted to be here. It's like that's right none of us. So it's like, well, we'll, we'll save how you got here for a later, but let's all address that that like life brought you here. So I actually worked in Medtech for a very long time, spinal implant sales. I was actually the individual that would go in and stand in the operating room and show the surgeons how to use our products. And one of the first like spine surgery robots that were created when I was with globus, we also had surgical navigation, surgical planning softwares, really innovative, like, you know, complex titanium 3d printed. So I all that was when I knew I fell in love with like that consultative sales approach where you're in there. You know, they're selling a card where it's just like transactional and then there's being value. And I've never been able to be that type of person that can just do that cringe. Transaction. Email LinkedIn LinkedIn DMs where I just word vomit you it's that sometimes. So that crew is going great and I was kind of at the point I didn't want to see myself as like that hypertensive like three times divorced. Like 50 something, you know, working from 4 a.m. to, you know, 12 a.m. Monday through Friday like in this is real stories. Like couldn't go on vacation without a surgeon calling and saying, what do you mean you're out of town? I hate the guy that replaces you and actually having to abandon my family and like, yeah. So I decided it was time to move up, go to corporate. It was going to go after an area of EP role then eventually hope to be the first female VP for the southeast. So I decided Houston because it is one of the largest spine markets in the world. And you know, you can make it here. You can make it anywhere. It's like the concrete jungle of like the spine sales. So I was like, this is it my career. It's very interesting. I don't know if Houston had that claim to fame of being the center of spines. I don't know if I'm listening to any all medtronic guys, striker, done a great job holding your, holding your footage out here. But essentially, my start date was March 1, 2020 and a brand new territory selling products for a surgery that was deemed elective. So, you know, I did what everybody else does. And I just sat around inside of my new apartment overlooking midtown and it was on a paid vacation essentially. And you know, like every, you know, true love story, I met my now husband on a dating app. Well, locked in a brand new city and he happened to be an out of work petroleum engineer that's a completion consultant. So he was obviously very busy during the pandemic. And we moved very fast. Love pregnant. He still was out of work. I was essentially just buying time until my paid vacation was over. And I had a very good friend who had an intertech company. Listen, baby on the way, both of your jobs, who knows what it's going to look like at one point in time. Considering my husband going back to college, like it was a very scary time for the people working for the independence, those consultants. Sometimes you forget like, I mean, just how doomsday bleak that it was for several months there. And yeah, just scary feeling. I'll never forget the day that I heard his phone will went negative. Like I heard like the things go off and I'm like something bad just happened. Did you ever see the video of the meme I posted where it was the D day seen from saving private Ryan and it was about oil going negative and just everyone in willing gas just getting on up. You see that? No, I don't think I was following you guys. It went super viral, but like I made that like that was probably the funniest piece of content ever made in my life. And it came from a place of like pain because like I was like really worried about all my friends and family. And what was interesting about that is like you can go look at like the comments and like YouTube and Twitter and everyone's like ladies I just show this to my husband. You know, he got laid off and we're sitting here laughing. It was like like is it like a dark way of bringing humor to a very tough time. So yeah, it's just like crazy. Like easily we forgot like not for God, but like it just kind of gets like pushed back into the memories like that. Time of 2020 is just like that really happened. I had a kid. I mean, that's weird real wood stuff happened. But you know, when you're backs up against the wall and you know, you have a baby on the way. And one skill I have my husband does in his salesperson. And you know, kind of a sidebar. I grew up in an agricultural family. Everybody farmed showed horses also grew up spearfishing. So I had a lot of respect for you know what the oil and gas markets and their fluctuation affected my lifestyle. But I really fell in love with offshore oil and gas operations when I started spearfishing off the drilling rigs. Yeah. And that's when I became like if people could see what I saw underneath and they would not associate this with this. Just environmental disaster that is no regard for the ocean life. I mean, the worst thing that ever happened to marine was the decommissioning program. Yeah. Because they killed just thousands and thousands of species that had made their homes. Yeah. Yeah. Really elaborate higher ecosystems. Yeah. Yeah. So there was that passion I had. Then you know, when the love of your life and you know, we always expect men to be there for us. But sometimes I think women have to step up when they can. Absolutely. And that was when I realized that the insured tech product I sold would also be used independently for oil and gas operators for loss control inspections. So I kind of hung myself on that. And I said, OK, this will be a great way for me to meet people. I'll find someone that needs a completions consultant. Yeah. Yeah. Famous last words. Yeah. During that time. Awesome. It was the name of the startup was acquired by a private equity group. I didn't want to go over with them. I really started to fall in love with the entire concept of like oil and gas tech industry, BARDAS. Yeah. Public presence is a very good friend of mine. No, I'm through spearfishing. OK. So he gave me a sweat equity option. I'm work with me. I was happy. I was content. And then shortly after the acquisition. My old CEO came back and was like, I need to hear. I need to champion and. Help oversee the sale of our products. Please come back. So I ended up going to ensure he and for two painstaking years. I tried to make very. Right. I just ran out of very archaic software platforms built on Adobe cold fusion. We can we can always edit. But I hit this little magic button right here. OK. Flags and I just told Jacob to edit it. I take up like up in the clouds somewhere and he'll edit it. Plus. I do it and I just don't edit it. And I'm just like, yeah, I forgot what I was saying. So anyways, say lobby move forward. So, you know, I found the best way to try to make someone buy just something with a heinous user interface. Reminded me of solitaire. So that was pretty scary. How am I going to get people to buy this? Yeah. Then I started to learn that essentially the company was structured just to be sold. That's all it was. Yeah. So I came up with the bright idea of well, let's take this is it's already being used for oil and gas inspections and let's optimize it even further by putting, you know, best in class blowout preventer and well control and everybody can, you know, upload their certifications on we can really optimize for the insurance carriers. Because I was understanding that half the reason they were pricing out well control programs was simply like the cost of the risk versus the data. And if you understand how these like carriers make money is through underwriting profit. So they were essentially just pricing the market out based on very bad data and, you know, for every underwriter working in the oil and gas industry. They have maybe spent two weeks, you know, they did the rig school out UT and I mean, what do they really know to make an informed decision and judge. Yes, we will take on this much of the risk and at this rate. I know it's so interesting because there's a guy on Twitter and he's been messaging me and he has an entrance brokerage for me. He's like, how do he's like, do you have any training program for my people? Like he's like, I need them out in the field hands on to learn as much about oil and gas as possible. And so his people should just go out and learn for themselves like I did. Yeah. Go make a hand. Yeah. Just go. Get on hinge in Houston. We've got a whole program contact me. That's hilarious. And so, yeah, kind of, you know, lack of domain expertise and the underwriting processes and then bad data going into that is probably a huge problem. So that was when, you know, ANOVA and I teamed up and started working on a solution together. I think Dan Wessel is probably one of those intelligent people I've ever met and he saw very clearly. He's like, give this data to the risk engineering department and now they're going to have, you know, you make an underwriter feel more comfortable. They're going to give you a fair rate. They're going to offer bigger lines of coverage. It's just all around the claims process, you know, part of the reason we're seeing premiums raises like litigation, these nuclear verdicts where, you know, especially against oil and gas. You get one jur that's, you know, I'm anti oil and gas and this family deserves and like they are being excoriated for the highest amount versus what a lawsuit might have been two years ago. So they actually refer to it as social inflation in the United States. Interesting. There are litigious nature. We ourselves are our own worst enemies for our cost of insurance and you look at the auto side of it and especially in the Permian Basin. I don't have to explain what that's like being out there and the horrific car accidents. It's a significant impact on the entire oil and gas industry as a whole because they're going to charge more for those commercial fleets. Yeah, I mean, you have a commercial truck hit a passenger vehicle head on fatality. I mean, that can potentially kill a business just given the amount of money that that claim would be in. This is a huge discussion now in the Permian among all the operators is just getting sand haulers in particular off the roads just getting fewer trucks on the roads because it is like. I've become hyper aware of car accidents and like have this fear with like my kids and my family of just like being in the car like driving out to West Texas because you see so many head on collisions. And so yeah, the implications you have a high enough volume of those that starts impacting insurance rates and things of this nature. And I just believe that you know operational data and I'm just saying this is a very broad term you know like whatever your. You know the directional drilling company you're using whatever software provider you have the data that you're given especially when you're dealing with well construction you can use that in your favor and a claims event a speed up the claims make sure that you're not seen at fault you get paid out because you deserve to get paid out on a claim you've been paying those premiums you've been a good customer and just because. You know a jury or whomever be a gesture says no you know you're in the wrong these especially these independence like they can really leverage like their software providers and their data providers. You know it's interesting like just from an individual with health insurance like I've always hated how insurance companies play God and it's like you pay all these premiums and then you need a medication and. Insurance companies say no you're not approved for that and it's kind of the same concept here in the commercial space where you pay all these premiums and then when it comes time to use your insurance. Insurance companies are always trying to weasel their way out of paying claims and so how do you how do you mitigate that it sounds like you know from your perspective is using data and things of this nature but. How do companies like really think about able to make sure that their first properly covered and then when an event does happen that they're getting paid on these claims first they need to recognize the importance of insurance it's just as important as the finance that you're chasing matter of fact there are insurance advisers that work within these private equity groups venture capitalist that say. Okay this is how we want to have this risk structured etc etc so if you are trying to get acquired or whatever the case may be let's just improve financial performance you need to understand how important insurance is I think everybody use insurance is we have to have it nobody cares about it until they need it so first we need to say one of those things it's always like my product or on the back burner just kind of like you don't you don't treat it as a primary issue it's always secondary and then it's learning I do that so. It's it's learning what you can do with your interest learning can you can you read that policy and it's also a false that's an albatross the brokers need to wear like I think. The brokers have done a terrible job in recent years and I'm sorry I'm calling it out there are certain brokerages that have been around for a very long time they've had no competition. You know it's that boomer mentality of like what do you mean software what do you mean data like it's very clear now that the implementation of data and tech within the oil and gas industry has revolutionized it. Yeah so it's all on the broker to make sure that whomever is handling their insurance programs isn't just more than a golf buddy that they really understand that that broker and your goes back to you saying someone contacted you looking for real world training can't get that real world training like I live in midland I I breathe this my husband goes to work I hear about the problems that he has working for the small private equity back capex mindset. How do you live in midland. Oh yeah. Okay. Awesome. That's country. Yeah. I love it. How I ended up from like living in Florida, Midland. Yeah, hell of a transition. It's hey, it's my hometown. I have I have lots of love for Midland. You know, one the opportunities that's used in a midland. I mean this is this is energy capitals of the world. And so that's awesome. You just got you got bonus points in my book for that. So you made a comment that I want to elaborate on a little bit because you talked about the technological advancements in this industry and how does that play into insurance. Tell me about that a little bit. Well, I know your favorite buzzwords AI. Yeah, it's not a buzzword in the sense that I. Yeah, AI machine learning AI. We actually utilize various AI programs. But they are backed with, you know, human quality control. And the more data you allow to be held by these underwriters, the more data sets, they're able to develop. And when you have a larger set of data, then they have their own models that they map out for risk that can help them have a more holistic view of the entire landscape. Yeah. And you know, I've seen it renewable energy companies have been wonderful whenever I collect the necessary data and I spent a brief amount of time in the wholesale side. And in that value chain that's. Any oil and gas company typically we're going to place those policies in the foreign markets that's not admitted. So those underwriters over there are so far removed about the guy that lives in Britain. Half of them couldn't even tell you what a palm jack is. So you have to think about conceptualizing for these people in terms of what does this mean. And I think that's where I don't think I know, for example, companies like a long path, long path is actually approved by Chubb as a tech data provider. Chubb. Chubb is a carrier. So when you deal with the insurance value chain, you have me, the broker that represents you, the insured, then you have the wholesaler who, okay, we're going to go out there. We're going to market this for you in the foreign markets. Then you have your insurance carriers. Then you have what are called reinsures. They're the ones deep water horizon. There were multiple layers of insurance on that. There were reinsures that had to insure the insurance companies. So all of these companies can utilize this data. I need a visual representation of this. It seems like there's lots of layers. Now I'm just worth vomiting insurance again. No, no. No, it's not really one. I'm dense when it comes to the insurance industry. So I appreciate you walking like through the entire value chain because I didn't even know that there were such thing as reinsures or what they do. And they affect your insurance premiums. Okay. So one, you know, let's find this up in light terms of an EMP, for example, you know, you're going in, you have a broker and then a wholesaler and then you have, you know, all these foreign entities and maybe the guy in Britain. And he doesn't even know what the fuck up pump Jack is or what Midland is. And so from an EMP perspective. How do you position yourself to essentially assist these different stakeholders in the underwriting process to where you're getting the best rates and getting the best coverage and things of this nature like EMP today. How do you say, hey, I want to position ourselves to have the best strategy for insurance. What data do they need to provide? What what essentially storytelling should they be doing for the underwriting process? First of all, stop the gatekeeping. Be willing to share your data. Okay. We're here to help. We sign NDAs. You have no problem sharing, sharing your health data with the hospitals. Give your broker, give the carrier the necessary data. Then nobody likes raw data. Give good data in the sense of what your operations look like. It's more than just giving lost runs. But, you know, when we were developing the well control solution, it gave live updates on the health of that well. In our big plan was that one day we would have enough data that we could actually model and predict a blowout based upon anomalies. Still not there yet. Unfortunately, the company shut down. Yeah. So first thing is access to data. What kind of data? What kind of data do you look for in an underwriting process? Is it amount of wells operated? Is it barrels produced? Is it health safety and environmental data? Like what type of data? That every piece of data can be utilized. Because remember, there's many different insurance policies that you carry, whether it's workers compensation. You know, you have your large umbrella policies where the operator's extra expense, the environmental, but everything you just mentioned can be used in the underwriting process to assess your property to assess your total insured value. Right down to, you know, data providers like dispatch. If you're wanting to play around in the IRA and you need to carry tax liability solution insurance, you know, that data that's used with those companies based upon employees can really help with that prevailing wage and apprenticeship. That's a heavy lift. So in turn, the underwriters are going to stack a big premium on it versus if a company gives a very nice packaged with a guarantee from their data provider that this is clean top notch data. So it's a very broad answer because it's depending on the policy policy and the application. My next question for you, pushing the hot seat is like if I'm an MP, I'm sent on this out of the table and you're an insurance broker. I'm sure some of a lot of these large your EMPs have in house teams that are working on insurance, you know, just constantly but Sam small mom and pop like a mid size and I don't have an internal team and it's like I want to work with the broker as a partner like I don't want to think about insurance like I'll feed you all my data and I want you to really think about what we need for coverage. I want you to go out in the market and find it. It seems like there could be mismind incentives there because you as a broker you're going to want you know the largest policies and things of this nature so that you know maybe I don't know how y'all's. Model works but if it's commission based or whatever. How do you work with companies in that sense to say like hey we actually want to be a partner with y'all and we have your best interest in mind and want to make sure that you have the proper amount of coverage because you can be overinsured as well right so. How do you work with companies in that sense to like really establish yourself as a partner not just a broker like obviously you guys have you know the domain expertise and understanding of energy but how do you position yourself and this is more like me asking you if you like just how y'all operate the business and think about that I love this question. I like doing things that matter there's that saying pigs get fat hogs gets water if you're overcharging or giving coverages that aren't needed that are affecting that insured there will be a time that you're going to have to like answer to that and someone will find out and that's just that's against your fiduciary duty and that is something that. At least I know at the Baldwin group on myself you know these people's lives in my hands so I kind of find it very synonymous with oil and gas that people's lives livelihoods financial success their kids they have a right to know and it's very open conversation let's hypothetically say I was prospecting you and I would begin by saying I'm here to be your consultant your guide. I obviously want to lower your insurance premiums obviously want to make sure you have the greatest amount of coverage because yes I might take a smaller commission but you know what you're going to go tell 10 of your friends. Yeah. And I think we need to bridge that gap between insurance and oil and gas and the negativity seen between both and develop a partnership. Yeah you know I was talking about like when we originally met and you and I got on a phone call and kind of opened up my eyes and to. Just the the layers of industries and economies and how it all sits on top of the insurance industry and how insurance really can rug pull entire industries and you see this happening in like residential real estate with insurance companies pulling out of California due to wildfires and Florida I can't remember what the stout was but I mean the amount of unsh uninsured homes and Florida I mean it's like the majority of the homes are uninsured and then you have these massive hurricanes that could potentially come in and just wipe it out I'm like. Open up my eyes to just like how much is built on top of insurance and you'd open up my eyes that by saying like hey look like oil and gas is becoming you know uninsurable and I was like oh shit. This can take down an industry if you're not able to convince insurance companies to underwrite these assets and so that kind of leads into my next question is like how things evolve over the last couple of years. You know is is underwriting getting harder easier for oil and gas kind of give me the lay of a land in terms of. These are great questions because you know I'm just not holding back in 2019 there was a bill signed called the net zero insurance alliance. Okay we're essentially an a virtue signaling ploy numerous brokers and carriers made a pledge that they were no longer insured oil and gas. So you now you have to think about these people that are standing in the way of how our world runs because your insurance premiums are more expensive. If you can't insure let's hypothetically say you have a really bad loss you have to pay out of pocket it's all it's a trickle down effect that's going to affect you and I the consumer. So that aged very well obviously there were some carriers that really stuck by their their gut. Nope this is what we believe in we're going to help my big thing is that oil and gas is what's going to guide us to the energy transition got to keep the lights on. So get that out of the way there are more and more players coming back into the market. I think there are some other companies that were very strategic and just get their off quiet and just nobody bother us. There's people like God bless AIG they stuck to their guns and you know they've got just up oil spray painting their their London offices like it's scary last time I was in London like being from midland and like oil and gas person was. I mean I definitely looked over my shoulder leaving because we were next door to that building a lot of people until they say they paid me to go over to Europe and. Mix up with just stop oil I think it'd be great contact. I will come along I will come along because that I can't begin to tell you like stuck in taxi cabs from whatever human chain they've they put across they're just. I've got a I had this shirt made it's a white shirt with big black letters and it just says big oil and I love that shirt it's like want to go over. I just want to ask him how did you get here today how did you arrive what was your what was your method of transportation and you know if they give me that like. No I tell you like like metaphorically like that too. How did you get to this line of thinking and not like physically like energy drive I think it might be a cult. I mean from what I know is for no I mean it's a religion. You look at it I mean it's got the all the hallmark traits of religion and that's not like. Look like climate change real yeah absolutely is I mean it's we've documented five ice ages and geology like climate changes are real thing but there's a pragmatic way to think about. Humans impact on that and how we move forward and how we talk about energy systems and consumption and. Going and throwing soup on paintings and like what the fuck does that do like that's that's that's so far like to the extreme. But when you get to that side of the curve I mean it becomes a religion at that point and so anyways yeah I can't like one already don't like your open the first place and then the fact that you have to deal with that just crazy. The hypocrisy is is bad but I digress from from just stop oil. There are more and more carriers working in the space there has been a softening in the market and I think we could continue to see. Rates become more affordable if we began to work so we're seeing the angel and swing back we're seeing like I mean we're seeing this across. Just kind of society right now where coming a little bit more pragmatic and less virtue signaling and understanding of actually energy is really important and well and gas powers 80% of that and so. And also you know it was really easy in 2019 2020 when oil and gas was down in the market and not producing returns very easy to say that you're not going to support the oil and gas industry but then when it starts cash flowing again. It's a little bit harder to turn turn your back to the industry so that's good to hear that the market softening and that that there's a lot more availability of insurance providers to the industry because it is important. Yeah but we the brokers need to do our job educating our customers helping them optimize their risk strategies. I think there's just been too much complacency with like we renew every year with Glenda you know yeah so you think that's a great job that's a major education hurdle. So teaching is it teaching both sides of the market like oil and gas operators and then also teaching the actual church as well. Yes like my first day and then whole disclosure I left that wholesale broker because they were so anti oil and gas as like I can't I can't work for you. First day I walked in we had to give our speech who we are where we came from and told them what I did now is developing the software solutions for you know mitigating risk for oil and gas and they're like oh yeah so you're the enemy like that was. You know that needs to stop I mean I remember trying to give them my pitch and say I think we should go after X Y Z and they don't even know like the independent operators in the Permian Basin are out there everybody just assumes that it's like big oil. Yeah no it isn't that crazy it's like Exxon that you can go find me on podcasts for over years I'm like guys oil and gas isn't Exxon and Chevron and BP I mean there are thousands of companies in this space not only from production the willful services to valve manufacturers like this is a very large industry and you just be surprised at 99.9% of society doesn't know that. And these are the decision makers that are saying what we will ensure how much will ensure what the rate these are the people that are dictating the market and how much capacity is available I mean we can get more capital into the market with the right players. I mean this starts with the lobbyists I mean I I tell my husband like if you ever let me I'd love to go lobby for oil and gas for insurance because like proper education the right people need to be recruited. And they've got to understand like oil and gas is who's going to optimize like geothermal and you know we serve far greater purposes than just you know. Yeah drilling holes in the ground to get the black stuff out you know I think people just assume the clamps and yeah as far as it goes you love drilling holes love drilling wells. But even you look at that it's like you know leading geothermal company out there. Farbo energy my friend Tim Latimer is the founder CEO he's a completions engineer from oil and gas and BHB lying technologies from horizontal drilling to geothermal. So oil and gas powers 80% of the world and all these going adjacent energy verticals are still dependent on expertise and resources from oil and gas all energy is connected and so. So what you can't demonize the industry you need the industry if we're going to continue powering society and so. I mean he's be able to be insured if you can't be insured there is no industry and so really fascinating stuff you know sometimes like I've been kind of like just thinking like doomsday on my. Happens if you can't sure well gas assets like that it just rug pulls rug pulls the industry and I think thinking about it from this approach of not putting insurance on the back burner is a secondary item but thinking of it as a primary item. And hey what can we do with our data and our technology that we're deploying to get better insurance coverage at cheaper rates I mean why would companies not be optimizing for that i'm sure that this is a huge cost home so you should be spending more time in getting the best coverage that you can at the best price. So so me I should be an insurance broker to be honest you do a great job on it and that's what we need is more like minded individuals such as yourself that have that aha moment and I hope your listeners these startups that are like what can I do the next big thing make it easier for these CFOs whatever. Whoever is handling the risk finances in a company to be able to like gather this data for the broker and you know give good holistic view of your operations so that you can go to that under I don't say. And a beautiful picture of this upstanding individual and it goes so much further than how many employees you have or your loss runs but you know also real time you know I still truly believe that one day we will use drilling data for better well control. Allses not just the hypothetical how many barrels you know you know this is going to be completely out of left field but you're going to appreciate this so they're building or they're proposing a battery storage facility over here in Katie. And it's one of the guys on my team john calphane it's by his house and it's 500 yards sorry 500 feet away from a high school. And they've got a problem because you've got john who's a really smart oil and gas engineer here asking questions because I mean there's a lot of unknown say what if the same catches on fire and I mean it's right by school and anyways the way that they've. This would not fly in oil and gas which just like shows you the technical expertise of oil and gas versus renewables is the way that they modeled out is like oh well we've only modeled out for if one battery pack or module catches on fire in the radius. And the radius would be this and john's like okay great what about 100% catastrophic and like oh well we haven't seen it jump from one to the other is like they should talk to me is like but that doesn't matter and he's like what's the 100% catastrophic is like an oil gas we have to we have to plan for that and prepare for that like that is like I don't care if it hasn't happened which I don't believe but what if it does happen and you what happens to those kids in the high school. So anyways yeah they should talk you will take this offline I I helped I would the wholesaler developed a battery energy storage MGA because there was impossible to get these projects insured because of the thermal runaways and the markets and experts and people are higher intellect me all came together and. We put a set of guidelines for how these projects should be built I mean spacing you know eight feet apart yeah so yes I have to digress we get you the project name out for this but wrapping this up if we have listeners that are MPs OFS companies or any energy companies and they want to talk insurance and talk about deploying new insurance programs in their company what can they find you. We can find you on LinkedIn some are said Campbell or you can email me summer dot shed at Baldwin dot com will put links in the show notes for people to find you if you listen you should reach out to summer she's she's about us have known her for a few years now and enjoy getting to talk to you and. Appreciate you taking the time to come in today and school me up on insurance I'm pretty dense when it comes to topics so I have probably even more questions for you but thanks for coming on. Thank you thank you if you're listening today you enjoyed the show make sure share it with friend share it with the company that needs to get on top of their shit and insurance and we will catch you all on the next episode.