The Bachelor Who Was Betrayed | BONUS

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. "You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform." And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Lisa, tell them a better new show! We have a new podcast, it's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Euaniel, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcasts. The True Crime Comedy Podcasts all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scam them. What? I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess! I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world, is what they said. Wait, they said that. Yeah, yeah, they said that. The best podcast with two best friends who jabber and talk about topical, trendy, funny stuff, give our input on it. That's what you've needed, I think up until now, listener. Listen out of Character on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes I just feel like a burden. You're a bird. You fly. You're a morn. When we are out of character podcasts. Dude, you messed up the club. Hi everyone, Andre here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal Secrets and Lies, and it premieres this Sunday, March 29th, at 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time 9 p.m. Central. Please check it out. I'm here today with Stephanie Young and Clayton Eckerd. You are the host and you are the storyteller of our Glass Podcasts and iHeart Stoom Podcast Love Trapped for an Austin, Texas. This is really exciting. For people who don't know, Love Trapped is about your story, Clayton, and your relationship with Laura Owens, which started as a business transaction and then turned into a paternity scandal, and then a three-year pursuit for justice. Yes. You guys have done an incredible job, and I'm just glad to talk a little bit about your show and why it's right for the Betrayal audience. Thanks for joining me today. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. For the Betrayal audience, can you tell them a little bit about who you are and what you do for the show? My name is Stephanie, and I am the producer, writer and host of Love Trapped. I've been working on this since June of last year, so we're coming up on almost 10 months, and I think I've needed that entire time to do all the research for this project. And I am Clayton, and I am the liver of this whole experience. It's in life. But I've been really grateful that I have a platform to help not only me, but the other victims with receiving justice. Give me a little bit of a top line about what's been going on for you in your life over the last few years and why you need justice. I think you hit the nail on the head. It's been three years. of my life that I am not able to let go of until there's resolution. And currently it's just slowly chugging along, and she's still out there and about, and has looked for her next victim. And for me, it's a matter of being able to stop all of this and make sure that she doesn't have the ability to continue to perform these antics that she's done for 10 plus years. This goes far beyond me. So a little bit about Love Trap. It's the story of your post-batchler life, your experience on the show. You are still a bachelor. But you're experienced on the bachelor. And so we meet you on this podcast after, like in the aftermath of that. And through your move to Arizona, you end up meeting a woman named Laura Owens. And through that meeting, that chance encounter, all this craziness and complicated stuff comes out of that, that meeting. Yes. When I first heard about your story, it feels like a brief romantic experience with a person. It doesn't work out. There's a moment of rejection that Laura can't face. And there is fallout from that. And what was that like? How would you define that fallout? One of the darkest energies that I've ever experienced. It was so uncomfortable that I had instant chills. And before she sent me the messages saying she was pregnant, I had the exact thought in my head that I don't know what that just was, but whatever it was, it's far from over. And lo and behold, 11 days later from that point, she sends the initial messages that she's pregnant, but it was a very, very uncomfortable presence. It was as if the lights went off and she was no longer there. It's like nothing I've ever experienced. Right. So it became really clear that she wanted a romantic relationship with you. She wanted to have a dating relationship with you, a long term relationship with you. And when that didn't work out, she was telling you that she was pregnant. And there was this like, she wanted to be connected with you in some way. I was trying to leverage this idea of you being potentially the father to stay in connection with you and was doing whatever she could to stay in connection and keep you on the on the hook. One of the things that I think a lot of our betrayal listeners will relate to is that moment of when the mask comes off, we talk about it a lot, actually, there is a moment in time when a lot of the storytellers I work with where they discover like the day of discovery, the husband that they've known for 25 years, then reveals their double life and they physically change their voice changes, their face looks different. So I think a lot of our listeners and others can really relate to that moment of you saying, no to Laura, and then something ships. Yeah, I mean, I was just going back as you were describing that back into that moment. And I just, yeah, chills again, because her demeanor went from crying to stone cold, just expressionless. And there was this darkness where her eyes didn't go fully black, but it felt as if they did. And it was just this instant, I said, no means no, Laura, that there's nothing more here to explore. She wiped her last year and she said, no, I understand, have a great day. And it was just this, it was like two separate entities. I was talking to one version and then all of a sudden, there was a switch that flipped. I mean, it was that sudden. So it's interesting that you say that that's what other people have experienced because I, yeah, I saw it face to face and I've just never experienced something like that. Yeah. After that interaction in the car, what happened from there? Tell us a little bit about the harassment and then everything you had to go through. Yeah. So we were involved in a real estate transaction. She reached out to me originally to do real estate. You know, I made the mistake of mixing business with pleasure and it wasn't, yeah, less than learned, don't do that now. But I, you know, crossed that boundary, but then I had mentioned to her that in the car the next day. I said, that was on professional. You know, I can pass you off to another agent. She said, no, I want to work with you. I said, okay, let's keep professional from here on out. She said she agreed to it, but then she kept going back to trying to make it more than that. So over the course of the next few days, it was this well, hey, I actually still want to explore this. And then it got to the point of if you're not willing to explore a relationship, I'll just go work with somebody else to which I said, call her bluff, I said, okay, then go do that. And then she and I said, "No, no, I really want to work." So I was just back and forth. And then ultimately she just kept texting me, kept texting me, and then she started alluding to the fact that she was fertile. And she knew that she was fertile during this period of her life. And she was concerned that night, even though we didn't have sexual in her course that when we were grinding, something could have fluid could have been transmitted. So she started alluding to it before she said she was pregnant. And I'm like, "No, I'm not doing this." And so I was like, "Hey, I'm gonna block you." Like this, I don't want anything more to do with you, but please stop texting me or harass me. 'Cause this constant message is coming in. We're talking paragraphs long. So I ended blocking her. And then that was, you know, 11 days, or probably a few days later after that, on day 11, from the time from when we originally hooked up, was when I got that email from her. And she had sent over a positive pregnancy test and like a doctor's note, yeah. And so it really has been this journey of proven that she could have never been pregnant, that you aren't not the father. - Uh-huh. - I'm Hamza. - And I'm Martin. - And we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen to ours? - Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world. - And we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds. Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had, or the food we just say that is surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Med Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out. - Because our opinion matters. And so does yours. And this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect. - So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. - Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. On the iHeart radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Melissa Jeltsin, and in my new podcast, what happened to her? I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. - She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. - Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck. Because by all rights, I should be dead. - Cases that everyone else called closed. - They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. - These stories all start in the same place. With a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. - No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. - She did all of these grave things, and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. - I never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. - Listen to what happened to her on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. - Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwanyu, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. - And I'm Lisa Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. - I'm not gonna get any worse than fighting. - That is wild. I learned that about you today. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. - If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. - We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. - We're best friends, but we don't always agree. - Because you told us how accommodating you are. - Obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Liar. - Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. - I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcasts. - The True Crime Comedy Podcasts, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. - Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Deppery, Lamor and Morris and Nicole Byer. - Ooh, I scammed them. - What? - I could talk to you for an hour. - You're a generational yapper, like me. - That's why I had to make yapping a job. - And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s, all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents, tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. - If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess. - What has it been like covering this story, Stephanie? - It's been mind-blowing because every time you think that you've heard it all, there's something else that comes out. And you're just like, this can't possibly be real. And I think one of the most mind-blowing things is the timeline of events. So in betrayal, you just mentioned like, some of these people have been together for 25 years. - Yeah. - That, you know, shock of being betrayed by somebody that you've known that long. With Clayton's case, he met her via LinkedIn message on May 17th, the hookup happened on May 20th, and then by June 1st, she was pregnant. So this is like a speedy timeline, compared to some of the betrayal stories. So that to me is shocking. And covering that part of it, it's just like, whoa, this is like a very quick timeline to go from zero to 100. - And the unrelenting barrage of information. - Yes. - Because she then filed, like you've become embroiled in just a legal battle. - Yeah, she filed a parenting plan which I couldn't believe and was in shock that I had to respond to it via the court system otherwise. They would submit a default judgment. And most times they would assume the majority of the time people find parenting plans are actually pregnant. So I was going to throw away the paperwork and then I had someone on the illegal side of things that said, no, you can't do that, you need to respond. And I went into the court and he, the judge asked me why I was countering this parenting plan. And I said, because there are no children. And he said, you mean like they haven't been born yet? I said, no, there's no child or children. Like they don't exist. And he just looked at me. Like, are you being serious? Are you messing with me? I said, no, I'm telling you, she's making all this up. And he was just perplexed and he goes, okay, while I'll push this up the court. So he basically just pushed into another realm of the court. But it was, yeah, I'm like, I felt ridiculous. The whole thing was ridiculous. I'm like, I don't know how to respond to this. She's making it up. How do I prove this? And that's where we end up going with it was, okay, well, let's get her to prove pregnancy because, I mean, that's how I get out of this. You know, because this is something that now, she's gonna hold over me and how far is she gonna take this? And you know, as we've just recently uncovered, obviously through the timeline of this podcast, like she took a public. So then it became a, I need to prove to the public now, a court of public opinion. I have to be able to prove that this is all lie. - Yeah, I wanna jump in and just say that from the time that she told Clayton she was pregnant, to the time that she filed in the court in Arizona, it was only about eight weeks. So she was technically still in her first trimester. And as a woman, you know that most people don't tell people that they're even pregnant until after the first trimester. - 12 weeks, right. - Yeah. - So I think that was another interesting part of this that from the time that she found out she was pregnant, to the time that it was filed to establish paternity in the court, there's only eight weeks. - Well, I think what's interesting too, is for one, you can tell she has the time I was better than I do at this point. For me, I mean, it just feels like a blur of three years. It's like the emotions are so strong, but I don't know exactly on what dates these things happen. It just felt like it all was smushed together, but the other side of it too, the ignorance of a man, people go, oh come on, day 11 and she's pregnant. Why would you even take that up and believe that in the first place, but because I was googling, I mean, as a man, I had no idea, I'm like, I don't know how to fact check this or, and I wasn't bringing it to my family originally, so this is just me living this experience and I'm just googling and Google was like, yeah, I mean, technically someone could miss their period and show signs of pregnancy or be test positive as soon as like 10 days. So I was like, well, that we're on day 11. So it was just one of these things where at first, I'm fighting this alone. Obviously, I don't want this to get out to the public, but there's like, I also don't understand what I'm up against because I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I'm a guy, I don't know if this is possible and so I'm just constantly googling and I think she was too though. I think she was also, you know, doing her homework. - Yeah, we do often deal with stories of people who are intimate partners or relationships that have been built over a number of years. This is about two strangers meeting. How did that affect you emotionally? having your life. I've completely upended. Like, do you think about if I just didn't respond to that LinkedIn message, where does your mind go? Yeah. It depends. When if you asked that question six months ago or even three months ago, and as opposed to now, I mean, I've found the silver lining and all of this, but it certainly messed with me. I mean, I lost a lot of trust and people. I mean, I became very protective of my energy, which I needed to be more protective, but I almost like overcompensated, but it's something where I struggled to function on a daily basis because I really felt, I mean, very quickly, I realized this individual was looking to destroy me emotionally and render me useless. I mean, take me out of my ability to be able to function and work my jobs and, you know, it just felt very suffocating. And this person also had time on their hands. I mean, she was working around the clock, I had good emails just all throughout the day. And as people find out, she doesn't have a job. So she made this her full time job. Yeah. And it was very suffocating. Yeah, it was just hard to go about my daily life when like you have this happening in the background. And I mean, a lot of us can relate to this if you have, you know, someone that's, you know, abusive or somebody that has some news that they're like, I'm going to, you know, share this news with like, or they're threatening you in some capacity. It's basically the thing that's on your mind at all times. It's stress. Yeah. It's just constantly weighing on you. So no matter what else you're doing in life, in any moment of silence, you just go right back into that, that box, you know, that I so hard like tried to compartmentalize. I just pushed everything in. I'm like, I have to go about my life, but this box exists. But any moment of silence, you know, where things slow down in life, you just go right back into the box. You're like, I can't help this because this is out of my control too. Yeah. You know, there's somebody on this other side that's plotting and you don't know what their next move is going to be. Have you like envisioned what life would be like when you're done dealing with Laura Owens or do you feel like it's always going to be there? I'll be able to let go of a lot of anger. There's a lot of anger that's rooted in this. Not only just at her, but within myself, and I have to give myself grace, but I do see obviously that this was all brought on partly and partly of my own doing because of the actions I took, but even leading up to it, I mean, I was utilizing marijuana at the time to cope with the stress from the reality television experience that I just recently realized I still have not gotten over. I still harbor a lot of anger from that whole experience. And so there's parts to me that say, yeah, I mean, if you were able to have healed from these experiences, you wouldn't have found yourself back in this cycle. You wouldn't have subjected yourself to this kind of energy, but you did because you're not healed to the degree where you wouldn't place your energy in a person like her. And you know, that's something that I do understand is like, hey, you could have avoided this, but ultimately you were what you were when you first met her, which was a damaged individual. Yeah. I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin. And we're the hosts of Out of Character. As a podcast, I know there's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you going to get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. We are the best podcast in the entire world. I swear. I know. Bold. But why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? So sometimes we'll talk about, I don't know, the Uber driver we just had. And how nice they were, or if we tip them or not, come and find out. Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about, trust me, or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground or drama music or TV shows or the Med Gala and what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you want to see what that's like, come join us. It's a place where everyone can hang out, anyone, wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Melissa Jeltson and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights I should be dead. This is that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right, like she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these grave things and came out and spoke about it and he got a year. I never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise, sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to What Happened to Her on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my god, Lexi, we have a new podcast. I'm Lexi Iwaneo, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not gonna get any worse than fighting. That is wild. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Lie. Listen on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. The True Crime Comedy Podcasts, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamor and Morris and Nicole Byer. Ooh, I scammed them. What? You're a generational yapper. Like me. And the SCAMs run the gamut. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to SCAM Goddess on the I Heart Radio App, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. One of the things that we do on betrayal is every storyteller works with a mental health provider or a therapist like coach in each season to unpack a certain part of their story. And a little bit of a preview for season five as Sasuke is working with Jessica Baum. She dual just specializes in a mago therapy, which is really understanding like it's inner child work. And you know, when I met Sasuke, she really wanted to unpack her childhood and really figure out what is her relationship with herself worth and how she understands love and validation that ultimately led her to my club and good. And we hear those conversations in her therapy sessions, but it is like it is important because as much as we can't control Laurel and we can't control my club and good, all we can do is really look internally at ourselves and say, it's not our fault, but how did I get here? And it's just a really fascinating conversation and it's worked to be done. And like to do that work and to have that perspective, you should be proud of yourself. Yeah, and I appreciate that. But I also just understand that my environment has obviously influenced me and I've also went back into my childhood and I've seen why I've become the way that I have and why I take certain actions and subject myself to certain people. Maybe there was a lack of something in my childhood that I'm seeking and there are certain things that I've uncovered. But ultimately too, I think it's just as important in order to heal from that and overcome them and you have to accept accountability that while you were doing the best with what you could, you know, you are still someone like you made decisions to put yourself in those on a position like that. It doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it right that someone took advantage of me or anybody else. But there is the, okay, hey, I want to better myself. So I need to understand that like, I found my way here, but I can also take myself out of it. I mean, we're all doing our best, right? Yeah. So there's no victim blaming that should be had. It's more just, hey, I am a human being for the better and for the worse, I've made decisions my life, my environments impacted me. But I also want to be a better human. So how can I make sure that I don't find myself in this position again? What steps do I need to take to become stronger and more resilient and just have more self-love? Because I believe that me with more self-love, again, would have never interacted with somebody like her. Yeah. I think something too that's so interesting from my perspective is the way that his emotions have shifted over the last nine months. It's, you know, there's times where he's really angry, there's times where he's sad, there's times where he's willing to forgive, and then there's times where he's like, "No, I'm actually really mad." So to see this rollercoaster of emotion over the past nine to ten months has been interesting from my perspective. We talk about that a lot on betrayal about how progress is in a straight line and like healing isn't linear. And sometimes you're just going around because you're meeting the experience at different phases of your own healing journey and your own, like you're reading, you're engaging in certain books and podcasters and like material to better yourself. And so it makes you look at your experience in a different way. You know, like you were talking about what are you reading right now? Oh, the artist's production. It's probably not the best for the show. But like you're constantly, you're trying to, but you're working through your experience. And so it's going to bring up complicated feelings about different choices and the different fallout. The last thing I want to say about the betrayal, what, but I think the audience is really going to relate to is your journey with the justice system because this is something that we cover a lot. You know, I deal with storytellers that, you know, despite fear, despite being in a really dangerous situation, they couldn't get a protection from abuse. They really had to fight to the nail to get any acknowledgement from the court system. And so what is complicated about your story as someone who is actually being able to navigate the criminal justice system pretty seamlessly. And in ways that our storytellers actually struggle to, which is going to be really hard for some of our listeners to listen to, but it's fascinating. What is it like to be in a courtroom? Like in the scene that you were just telling me about, it's a serious place, a serious people. But what are we even talking about here? There's not even a real pregnancy. It's absurd. Yeah. Like that duality is mind bending. Yeah, I had a little level of confidence early on, probably because watching so much long order growing up. So I, as people found out early on, I had so much confidence that I self represented, which I didn't do for too long. Yeah. But I showed up with my glasses and my tucked-in shirt and my briefcase and he binge suits. Yeah. And I, but I ultimately thought, hey, look, like this is a ridiculous claim, and I'm the one that's telling the truth. I mean, all I have to do is just speak my truth. So I did have a level of confidence, which again, I would also say based on like I played, you know, D1 Division 1 football. I was on the bat check. I was in high stress environments. So to me, I had a level of comfort and confidence going into the courtroom and truth on my side. That being said, I realized very quickly that I could not keep up with the jargon, the court jargon, then I was like, oh wait, I'm over here raising my hand. I'm like, I don't even know if I, what can I speak? Can I not? It was a surreal experience. And obviously, I was like, look, I have to take this seriously because I could get caught up on a technicality. Even though I'm telling the truth, I could get caught up on some technicality where she could end up then, you know, winning. Right. And it's a really hard lesson to learn, especially about our justice system, that sometimes the last thing that matters is actually the truth. Right. They have, again, like there's technicalities here and there and you start seeing these arguments be brought up, like by her counsel where I'm like, that's ridiculous, but they're just trying to stick on one little exception. And it's like, but that could blow the whole thing up. I feel like you have to, if you have one little hole in the argument, they can just blow that up and then say the rest of it is no longer usable. And that is what really, I realized I'm like, this is actually varied. Like you have to be so specific and you really can't have any flaws and your arguments. And so obviously, I have legal representation now. And that's helped out a lot. And I got that, you know, because of the privilege that I've had of being on Reddit television and being a celebrity to some degree. Most people don't have that luxury. If I wasn't a celebrity, I wouldn't have had the support. And obviously the previous victims, they did not have that support. I think that is something that, you know, rightfully has agitated some people. They go, this is, you know, lucky for you. I mean, because I wish I could have had support. And I'm very blessed for that, but it is unfortunate that if you have some level of status, you have a better chance of navigating the court system. I think there are a lot of victims out there that are afraid because they don't have the financial resources. They don't have the legal representation. And it can be a very scary thing when you go in front of a judge. And, you know, you don't know what words to say and all of a sudden you're up against someone's legal counsel that has money. And they just start hammering you with these, these, these, these technicalities. And yeah, I mean, again, I've watched the previous victims get run out of court because she had more money, more resources. Has she bankrupted any of them? Like you could have easily. Yeah. Well, she's, I mean, she's cost them thousands of dollars. We're talking $68,000. That's just money that's gone poof. And so, yeah, I mean, maybe not bankrupted them, but has financially harmed them. I mean, that's money that could have been, you know, put anywhere else. Well, they both have children. So I was going to say, like, a college fund, and that was, that's a conversation that I had with one of the other victims was, do I want to fight this? Or do I want to use this money for my kids' futures? And that was a really hard conversation. Yeah. What do you guys want the betrayal audience to know about your show? I would like the betrayal audience to know that the story is, got the similar elements of the betrayal show. It's got the manipulation, the, the fraud, the deception, all of those things. But as I've been working on this project, I think the best part has been meeting and connecting with all the people who have lived it. I think Clayton and I have talked for probably over 30 hours on tape. I've really gotten to know Clayton. I've really gotten to know some of the other victims and hearing their stories and seeing what they've been through has been really eye-opening. And also, you know, a lot of times you think it's just one victim and, you know, it affected Clayton's life. But it's the collateral damage of everyone that's involved and the wave of destruction that goes along with it. That is really the most impactful part to me. Because you can see how one woman's choices really affect so many people. Yeah, and the piggyback off that, I would say, I think what this story really highlights is the power of community. And I hope it inspires those that listen to find their own communities and understand that nothing should be fought alone. Individuals that go through something similar a lot of times, they carry a lot of shame. And I was certainly in that same position. And I remember when it first went public, I was like, this is going to ruin me. And actually, a going public was the greatest thing that ever happened because there was an army of people that were willing to rally around me. But I didn't necessarily even need an army able to just, you know, having two or three people in my corner. I mean, makes all the difference. So I think we all are fighting our own battles. And not a lot of times, you know, people that are listening to these true crime series. I think a lot of people, they're able to sympathize. They've went through. They know someone who's went through something similar. They've experienced it. This story, I really think, it just highlights the power of that community and that anyone that's going through something similar knows of someone going through something similar. Keep in mind how powerful your support can be for somebody and help them get through a dark time. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing a little bit about your story. Where can people get your podcasts? The I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, Spotify, anywhere you listen to podcasts and a five star rating goes a long way. So new episodes every Thursday. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snow storm. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an I Heart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple podcasts available only to I Heart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. I'm Lexi Juanio, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ooh, I scammed them. What? Start listening to SCAM Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin. And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world. It's really funny, I think. Really? Yeah, yeah, I think statistics just came back and we're one of the funniest two guys with mics, and that's pretty hard to beat right now, but it's true, actually. Why should people listen to us, tell them? Well, we're trendy, we're funny, we're topical. You get all your news here, not, you know, the facts, but maybe our takes on it, and everything in between. So listen, Out of Character on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guaranteed Human.