The Ax Murder Zombie - Delmar, New York

This week, in Del Mar, New York, detectives find a bloody mess when an axe murderer strikes a home on a quiet street, leaving behind one of the strangest crime scenes ever, and possibly just enough evidence to catch this depraved killer. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today. It is a crazy story that we have for you today. Just an absolutely wild, messy, something we've never seen before today, which is wild. So we'll get into all that. It's going to be crazy stuff. Before we head to. All of that craziness, though, definitely, you should head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com to get tickets for your own craziness. Come see a live show, everybody. If you've never been to a live show, they are a blast. Comedy show, comedy show, comedy show, with a murder, and it's just so much fun. We can't wait to see you out there. I've never seen anything like it. You've never seen anything like it. Next, we're in a couple weeks here. What is it? September 18th at the Pabst in Milwaukee. I'm not sure if any tickets are left. We had released the rest of our holds. Not sure. Minneapolis, the 19th State Theater. Get your tickets. October 3rd, Dallas. October 16th, San Jose. October 17th, Sacramento. And then Tarrytown on November 13th, which is almost sold out. And then, of course, Medford, Boston, outside of Boston there. Snap them up. On the 14th. Let's go. Get those tickets right now. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com is where you do all of that stuff. Also, listen to our other shows. I put out two shows. We think you'll love. Crime and sports. You do not have to like sports. Trust us. You have to like crazy stories that are hilarious. We got that. And then your stupid opinions. There it is. Because tell me reviews aren't the most fun thing in the world. 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Then, for small town murder, Donner Party Part 2. This week, they start eating each other, everybody. So check it out. It's going to be wild stuff. Can't wait for that. And on top of all of that, you also get everything we put out. Crime in sports, your stupid opinions, both small town murders every week. All ad-free with your Patreon as well. Ad-free. Ad-free. Can't beat that. Ad-free. Ad-free. Ad-free. Ad-free. Also get a shout-out at the end of the show. Jimmy, I'll mispronounce your name. He'd love to get it correct, but, you know, names are tough. I'll try my best. Hey, what are you going to do? Names are hard. They're difficult. So that said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. Jokes are going to be made, and people are going to die because it's called small town murder. So it'd be weird if they didn't. So that's how it works. You go, how do you make that happen? Very easily. That's the thing here. We do it very tastefully-like. That's how it is. Huh? Yeah. All you have to do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's family. Why, James? Because we're assholes. But. But we're not scumbags. That's it. There you have it. That's all you have to do, because there's plenty to make fun of. We'll make fun of some small town, because we're all from somewhere that deserves a little mocking, a little ribbing. It's all in good fun. We'll make fun of some police force that lets a murderer kill more people. Why not? That's a screw-up. We'll make fun of a murderer, because we have no other recourse. We have nothing. We can't go to a prison and take his ramen noodles away. We have nothing we can do. So, we'll mock him. That's our particular skill set. So, yeah. That sounds good. You're going to hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, I don't know why you're here to begin with, but we think you might like it anyway. So, give it a chance. And also, you should do this. You should clear the lungs. What do you say here? Let's go. Arms to the sky, everybody. Let's all shout. Up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go. What a crazy ritual we have every week. It really is insane. So ridiculous. So ridiculous. We found out that there is an Etsy producer. We wanted to have some things made for our studios and stuff like that. And they refused to make our stuff, because it says, you, sir, may fuck off and shut up and give me murder. And they said they're a family business. So, from my family to yours, kindly lick my family's balls, you fucking weirdos. You're fucking morals, because you won't swear? Fuck you. Fuck you. I hope your fucking mortgage is real late this month, because you don't need money, honestly. Imagine moving that much Etsy shit that you can parse between morality of swear words. Eat my shit. Fuck you. You're doing it. That's on the internet. The other ones, they refused. They wouldn't do that, either. No, I'm kidding. All right. Let's go on a trip. We're going to Del Mar, New York, everybody. Del Mar, New York. D-E-L-M-A-R, New York. It is a hamlet inside the town of Bethlehem. Oh. So, sing your Christmas songs, as you will, here. It's all year long. Yep. It's up by Albany, here. It's eastern New York, right outside Albany, in that capital region there, up the Hudson. It's about 15 minutes outside Albany. So, right there. Albany, by the way. Is that near where Woodstock was? Eh, it's in between. Woodstock is also, I think, across the river, Woodstock. Oh, that's Bethel. Never mind. Bethel, yeah. No, Bethel Woods is where the original, actual Woodstock was. Yeah. And then they had the Bethel shows after that, always, every year. They still do. They still do, yeah. When I was a teenager, that was a big deal. Yeah. It's also, it's two hours and 45 minutes to New York City, and about four hours to Pembroke, New York. If you remember that. So, that was over by Rochester, Buffalo, which is actually important to know the distance here for this episode. That was episode 684, the murderer mayor, which was insane. The guy trying to be mayor murdering people, which, I mean, you're murdering your voters. That's not going to help. No, you can't force them down. One less vote at that point. So, this is in Albany County, area code 518. A little bit of history here, because we got a lot of story to get to. Nathaniel Adams moved to the area. In 1836, and then built a large hotel and made some other improvements. He was the first postmaster in 1840 when the post office was built. The Adams Hotel was Bethlehem's town hall, also, in the 1900s, 1950 to 1980. They just used that as the town hall. Now, for Nathaniel Adams, Del Mar received its name of Adamsville, which was the original name. It got a post office, but then, I guess the story is that mail started to get in. It got confused with Adams, New York, which also had an Adams Village, which is confusing. Now, by the way, this reminds me, I apparently screwed up some of the Wisconsin stuff last week and mixed up my spring brooks on a couple of them. This is why you say, no, there's already another one of those, and you don't do it, because then you don't confuse podcasters 150 goddamn years from now over where the fucking shit was. Just spit all over my thing. Certainly in the forefront of their brain. God damn it. They had no reason. They had no respect for me sitting there at three in the morning trying to figure out which is which. So, anyway, it was changed to Adams Station in an attempt to relieve the confusion, but apparently, they just decided to name it Del Mar, and they can't figure out why they named it Del Mar. Okay, because there's already one of those, too, on the other side of the country. There's tons of them. There's one in Maryland. There's one in Delaware, Maryland. There's that one. We've done an episode there. All right. This, the town historian, Susan Leith, said it. So frustrating. There's got to be something out there hidden in the depths of the D&H Railroad archives, but they don't know. Okay. Now, Del Mar started being treated as a census-designated place in 1980, where they would do census here. There's that. Now, they did not include the town of Del Mar in the 2010 census for some reason. We're not sure why. In 2005, CNN Money magazine named Del Mar, the zip code here. Which is, you know, larger area. One of the best places to live in America, rating it 22nd in the best place to live. It was called Great American Towns. So, let's find out from some reviews what people think here. These are reviews for Bethlehem, the town of Bethlehem here. Five stars. Great and safe place to live. Friendly neighbors and schools nearby. Everyone helps each other. Small town feel, but close to highways and downtown Albany. Definitely. on the thruway it's terrific three stars It's a very typical suburb with stay-at-home moms and lots of cookie-cutter houses. I'm a single mom, so I don't fit in anywhere, really. I moved here strictly for the school district for my daughter. It's very expensive, and if you're not a typical, quote, family, it doesn't feel very homey. However, it's close to the Adirondacks, only two and a half hours to the city, and not terribly far from the beach. I can fly out of JFK to get cheaper flights, even direct to Honolulu. What does this have to do with this town? What are you talking about? Overall, this is a pretty boring town compared to other places I've lived. Honolulu, Telluride, Bar Harbor, Burlington, San Diego, and other destination towns, but it's decent. You've lived in all the most expensive places in the country. And the most beautiful, all of them. Yeah. She left out Martha's Vineyard. Otherwise, she had it pretty much in Carmel. Otherwise, she had it down. And then two stars, very simple. Albany is a culinary disaster. That's a culinary disaster. Shit restaurants. Okay. People, and this is for the, these stats are for the zip code of 12054, which is kind of also encompasses a bit outside Del Mar proper here. Population, 17,100. Wow. Yeah, and that's a decent-sized town. More women than men, 51.8% women, which is way out of whack for a big town that's not like in the middle of nowhere or not like a mining town or something. Yeah. Median age, 42.6, about four or five years older than the national average. A lot of married people here, 57% married. So it's kind of a move up here. Family, suburbs, lower amount of people with children who are single. Race in this town, 91% white, 2.8% black, 2.8% Asian, 1.5% Hispanic. So that's what you get there. Religion, 45% are religious. It's normally 50-50. In the rest of the country. And I'm going to shock you here, Jimmy. Yeah. Get ready to have your socks blown off. Number one, it's Catholic. Strange. Yeah. Yeah. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the North, everybody. That's right. Of the North, you bet. Everywhere up here. Let's see. We got some Pentecostals, a couple of Methodists. 1.7% Jewish. Oh, my God. What? We get to sing a song, finally. It's been so long. Unbelievable. Let's do it. Mind-blowing. Hava Nagila. Hava Nagila. Nagila Hava. Nagila. Nagila. I don't know the words. Hey. Hey. There we go. I love that. Hey. Unemployment rate is low. Median household income here, $117,984 a year. They're doing well. They're doing well. It's normally $69,000 in the rest of the country. Cost of living, 100 is average, regular. Here, it is 99. So, pretty close to average. Wow. And the median. home cost is within $800 of the median home cost in the country. It's right on the money, $338,900. But your buck stretches far. It stretches farther. Yeah, absolutely. So there it is, everybody. If we've convinced you the Albany capital region is the only place you'll be happy, we have for you the Del Mar, New York real estate report. All right, your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $1,500, which, by the way, I just found out the U.S. average, because they've updated their stats, $1,430 for a two-bedroom rental in this country. It's outrageous. Yeah. Unbelievable. Stupid. Very. Here's a three-bedroom, one-bath, 1,076-square-foot house. It's a cute little house. There's like a stone foundation. Somebody slapped some siding on it at one point, but that's fine. Nice hardwood floor. Sure. There's a little front porch. It's a nice little house, but it's small, 1,076-square-feet on a small lot, $299,900 for that. Wow. Which, I mean, it's okay, I guess. It's steep, but it's a piece. A little steep. Here's a three-bedroom, one-bath, 1,528-square-foot house. So this is like a couple of kids or something like that. It's a nice little old house built in 1831. So very, almost 200 years old. History, yeah. Yep. On 0.35 acres, pretty decent, $379,000, and that's with a recent $6,000 price cut that just happened like two days ago. Then, finally here, a four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,626-square-foot house on half an acre. It's kind of your typical suburban kind of home, you know, the two-story, you know, with the little two garages and everything. Nothing special. $725,000. $725,000 for that house, though. It's in a very nice neighborhood. You can tell just by the yard that it's in a very nice neighborhood. All the bushes are perfectly crafted. It's one of those places. You're going to hire a landscaper. Oh, you're not doing that yourself. You'd be so frustrated. The first time you made a lumpy circle, you'd be like, okay, I'm not doing this. I'm sorry. I have somebody about this. I am hiring a guy. Things to do here. The Five Rivers Fall Festival. Oh. Oh, yeah. Five Rivers. Five Rivers. It's at the Five Rivers Environmental Education Center. Sounds like a lot of fun. It's a family day of nature fun. Get offline, get outside, and have activities, it says. See Five Rivers. Let's do it. Interactive exhibits and activities. Ollie the Otter will make an appearance. There's a picture. Oh, Betty will. Ollie the Otter, who's just a dude. In an otter outfit with a hat on. Oh, it's not a real otter? No, no, no, no. It is a man or a woman, I'm not sure, in an otter outfit wearing a hat. Yeah. That says Del Mar on it, so it's pretty ridiculous. Rockies is going to sue him. Yeah, for sure. Reptiles with Uncharted Wild from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., so get your reptiles in here. Crafts and games, food trucks, and live music, which for the life of me, I could not find. They said local bands, so they're not advertising anything. I'm really bad. I even looked on Facebook for bands that were advertising they were going to be there. Couldn't find shit. Nobody's telling anybody if they're not playing it. They're not bragging about it. No. We're going to do a set with Ollie the Otter. It's going to be great. It's a family-oriented environmental celebration featuring hands-on outdoor educational activities, interactive exhibits, guided walks, and more. Enjoy opportunities to meet live animals, better than dead ones, I guess, and explore. Staffed exhibits from a wide range of local conservation partners. We'll have live music from local bands. Yeah. Oh, boy. Can't wait. Held Rain or Shine. Free admission. Free parking and admission, but we do encourage carpooling. Don't tell me how to get there. All right. I mean, obviously, but still. That said, crime rate in this town. Here we go. Things that we are interested in. Property crime is about one-third below the national average, so pretty damn safe for that. And then violent crime. Murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime, also about one-third below the national average. So. That's all, huh? That's it. Pretty safe. It's a little. I figured it'd be safer. It's a little leafy suburb. Pretty safe. That's a third under the national average. It's pretty damn safe. Pretty good, yeah. Yeah, unless you're, like, in a really middle-of-nowhere place. It's the only place we find lower than that. So, that said, let's talk about some murder, shall we? Okay. Here we go. All right. Here we go. This is a lawyer later on in this case here. I am going to read their words about this town, just to set the scene a little bit here. They described it like this. A very pleasant little suburban enclave, a bunch of houses, a few stores, some churches, a couple liquor stores, a YMCA, a skating rink, and Little League Fields. Yeah, it's a town. Throw a Walmart in there. It's a town. That's all the stuff. It was by the same lawyer's account that called it an essentially crime-free community. The Bethlehem Detective Bureau had four detectives and no homicide squad. Wow. Because nobody, they had, like, three murders. We're never going to need it. They had, like, three murders in 40 years. So, it's not really. No squad at all. No, they just bring in the stateys when they have a problem. So, they also said, I think there's been three homicides in the last 40 years. So, obviously, if there was a homicide squad, there would be nothing for it to do. So, this is a very. Very safe town. Basically, he said, the police force's daily work consists of drunk drivers and telling the 14- and 15-year-old kids with their skateboards to please get off the steps of the church. That's your job as a cop. Look for people weaving. Pretty good day. Yeah. Just go by the church, see if the kids are trying to do rail slides down the fucking handrail, and then go from there. And then use your discretion on whether or not we ticket this man for the drinking. Well, yeah. I mean, maybe he's close to home. You never know. Yeah. So. He's going through some shit. Let's talk about some people. Let's introduce some people here. Okay. 2004 is when this whole mess is going to take place. Let's talk about a guy, Peter Raymond Porco. P-O-R-C-O. And that's how forensics files said it's said like that. So, it's Porco. Okay. August. He's born August 22nd, 1952. People around his job and everything around the community, he's known as Gentle Peter. Nice gentle beater. Nice guy, apparently. he's originally that's fun originally from norwalk connecticut uh his parents are ralph and jane he went to the university of albany and graduated in 1974 so he loves this capital region yeah he meets a woman in college too named joan belzano uh she's about two years older than him uh she was walking to the library and stopped to ask him for directions and he's gentle which is yeah so he he guided her to the library very gently sure and it turned into a marriage after that so well done she earned her master's degree at the university of albany where while peter was getting his undergraduate degree because she's two years older than him all right um he then went to albany law school in 1977 or graduated from albany law school in 1977 then peter was admitted to the new york state bar in 1978 so here we go he's a lawyer um nice his first legal job was as a public defender for albany county and then later he went to the private firm of ainsworth and sullivan and um later on he'll work in the family court and that's where we'll catch up with him in 2004 um now joan here she was a children's speech pathologist which is a very nice job so they're yeah both very educated people you know um to be able to do that she worked for years at jefferson elementary school and at the uh shall shallmont central school district in rotterdam um that's the lady that helps with like speech impediments and such i yeah i would imagine so the kids that need to go to speech therapy that's i would assume she would be the one they'd go to her probably and those people are saints because i remember i've stations i have well i just remember kids that were you know third fourth grades had really bad speech impediments and then by the time high school came around they didn't have them anymore because they were going to see the speech therapist all the time and it's it's it's impressive that you can do that because that changes a person's life i mean oh god you can't speak you're fucked in this world you're totally fucked i mean can't do anything so yeah um she's her friends describe her as very devoutly catholic she goes to daily mass daily oh every day every day it's a lot that's a lot usually that's not something it's usually old people do that like sarah's grandfather does that but he's like in his mid-80s and that's where all like his social life is so he just goes and hangs out and you know whatever the hell but every day when you're younger that's interesting um also always out the door at 6 a.m everyone said she's an amazing homemaker an excellent cook loves hosting gatherings and all that so joan is well-rounded let's just say she's a brilliant speech pathologist and does all this she was repeatedly described as perfect um in a good way sweet and beautiful quote-unquote is what a lawyer said later on now they have two kids together they have jonathan uh here was born i want to say about 1980 but it's hard to pin on him uh jonathan's born in 1980 and he's kind of real straight-laced guy he'll end up like a an officer on a submarine in the navy later on like he's real real buttoned up officer an officer and then stuck around for the officer stuff well i think he just went to college he went to officer school he went to like college first and then went into the military oh this is a this is a family of think of a speech pathologist and a lawyer if you told them at 18 i'm going into the army they go the fuck you are you're going to the fucking army your ass you're going to the fucking army how to do this the right way yeah yeah you're going to college first then you go into the army as an officer this is crazy so that's what an educated family would do that people of our ilk would just be like yeah sure i don't know go do that i guess whatever enjoy front line so front line they have a second son uh after that july 9th 1983 christopher stephen is born uh he goes by chris um now peter peter is a family is important to peter seems to be the most important thing because he turns down i don't even know how much more money he would have made doing this but multiple times his salary obviously rather than working for the uh like family court system he was when he worked at the ainsworth and sullivan he was offered a partnership there which means share of the profits and everything it's a big right and it's a big law firm in albany too they it's a very prestigious job and he said no he turned it down because he said the hours would be too much for him and he wouldn't spend any time yeah which is amazing how many lawyers do that you know that's boy lawyers or something else instead he wanted to work as a law clerk rather than a partner at a big firm okay that's crazy um he wanted to have spend more time with his kids and he also had loyalty to a judge named anthony cardona cardona moved to family court and uh which by the way one lawyer called about the bottom of the food chain in the judicial system so this is not where the money is family court here i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't care um peter followed him there out of loyalty so uh cardona became the presiding judge of the appellate division third department peter went with him and served as his clerk so that's he's just sticking with this guy is how he's doing it um now i guess one lawyer that knew him said people who knew him called him gentle peter because he was the kind of person who would do anything he could for anybody who needed help which that's who you want in family court because i'll tell you what that family court i've had a little bit of experience yeah it is a expensive and be uh unforgiving and vicious and it is cold it is yeah so cold it's brutal they don't give a fuck about you they have rules that they abide by and numbers that and there's a calculator for christ's sake they plug numbers in give you a number and tell you to get fucked that's all it is brutal and this i mean any guy who would like i said turn down a high-powered law firm's partnership job yeah instead to do this they have to have a certain moral not moral but a certain character to them where the money and fame aren't or you know importance and clout aren't the thing he's chasing yeah um other things he does he's a eucharistic minister at saint francis de sal salas in loudonville um he helped build a students in court program at bethlehem high school and he also coached youth soccer and didn't molest anybody so i mean yeah he's even hanging out with kids in a good way he hosted card games at the house for friends and judges and other lawyers and he loved to go camping and canoeing so peter's a fuck he wants a life he said i want a well-rounded life i don't want to be working 18 hours a day that's stupid um 1991 they buy a beautiful new house um it's a very quiet street in del mar on broccoli drive not broccoli broccoli um it's a two-story four-bedroom house lots of room very nice you know safe area uh they buy this house and that's where they're gonna raise their boys who are like you know 10 and eight at this point and um yeah and everybody said from around the neighborhood that peter appeared to be a good and excellent father everybody liked him um and everybody that knows them too says they're not like there's no dark side like they're not like like they're not like we did the the uh kansas case with the pastor and his wife and they're all they have like five people they're both fucking and there's all this big dark side there's none of that here that's another one that's a different one that we had yeah i'm talking a couple weeks ago the pastor and and uh in kansas there emporia oh yeah that guy and if you've watched the netflix documentary the pastor's wife that whole thing like a lot of times there's a you know a below the surface to people who act like they're wonderful in public yeah and uh well i'm sure we'll do a patreon episode but that is the what the fuck i got so many questions we have no time for that some other time these people though they're saying they don't gamble they don't do drugs there's no there's no affairs they neither of them are having affairs there's they're active in their church and like see they're actually what they look like on the surface they actually are this family which is yeah it's rare honestly it's whenever someone's showing how good they are i always think that the dark side of that's got to be a so bad that they need the work the better they try to make themselves be the darker i think they are right isn't that what you do yeah yeah i mean anybody that's like out there uh promoting how fucking happy they are those are miserable people how great they are every time how you should live like me those people are fucking kids all the time or doing also all sorts of horrible shit never works yeah so a little bit about their sons here jonathan the older son he's the perfect son the older one yeah great grades captain of the swim team got a navy scholarship uh to go to the uh rochester institute of technology from 99 to 2003 and then he ends up in the Navy as a submarine officer. 'Cause he knows all this technology. technology shit that you need to know for that um then there's chris that's a dope acronym right that's riot that's cool i'd wear that shirt rochester institute of technology i wonder if they lean into that i don't know i doubt they do have to right i would hope they would but the i would feel like the rochester institute of technology wouldn't be like let's make some kick-ass shirts right yeah it's the least riotous like fucking metal bro i don't i just don't see it happen i feel like they're like well we we need to put the letters so people don't form riot out of it because that would be terrible yeah our expert button downs are gonna look like shit with the riot yeah no one's gonna know what's going on so chris started working at the bethlehem veterinary hospital at age 16 they didn't want to hire him by the way um because he's a teenager and they said whenever they hire teenagers they get they quit in three days because oh this job is cleaning up after dogs cats geese ducks whatever shit's on the floor essentially is what you got to clean up after yeah and that's real bad yeah because they're coming to the vet yeah they're sick yeah so they hired chris because a sitting albany county supreme court justice named joseph canazaro personally called and asked them to do him a favor on behalf of his friend peter porco and hire his kid so the lady who runs the uh the bethlehem bethlehem veterinary hospital said supreme court judges can be very persuasive so he hired him i've never taken a call from one i assume they're real good i assume they get what they want at the end of the call probably um chris they said by the way among the you know non-vets there the people that just worked there said he was quote just the greatest guy around he loved the animals took great care of them and stayed for years they all said that's oh wow great kid with the animals loved him um he ended up graduating from the bethlehem veterinary hospital and now he's working at the bethlehem bethlehem high school in 2002 where he was also a pretty good student and like his brother captain of the swim team so wow he followed in his brother's footsteps there he enrolled at the university of rochester um where he studied economics and also some biomedical engineering coursework he did as well um he joined sigma phi sigma pi or phi however they say at epsilon i don't know how to spell their bullshit or say they're bullshit fuck everyone so let me get this straight it's thousands of dollars to be friends with your people for what now stick shit up my ass great yeah let's do it that sounds wonderful um he swam on the varsity team and did rotc for a minute but his grades were slipping so they he got kind of kicked out of that um his own later on it said about him that when he gets to college though he gets like a lot of money and he gets like a lot of less serious in college as a lot of people do let's be honest um he became he became a frat do show you to you know really is that right somebody said later quote somebody said let's party and he said it felt like a pretty good idea and that's his college life yeah it turns into van wilder when he gets there he's a nut so he has a completely false persona at the university of rochester by the way what do you mean well i think it's a lot of kids probably do this if you grow up around your same area your whole life everybody knows you they know who you are you can't really reinvent yourself you know what i mean no they'll be like yeah you're full of shit what are you talking about whereas when you go hours away to college where nobody knows you you can be anything you want at that point that's what a lot of kids do they reinvent themselves the only reason to do that is if you're not proud of nor like what you are no just want people to think you're hot shit and you want girls to fuck you i think is part of it too So I mean, captain of the of the swim team and frat guy and came from my parents are great. But I'm great. What he isn't, though, is rich. And he wants to. That's the thing. Yeah, it's not that it's a matter of I'm a rich kid is what he tells everybody. He tells everybody he's waiting for a big inheritance. That kind of that's what I'm saying. That kind of thing. You know, you're totally right about the other side of it. Yeah, this is all the other shit. It's totally everything I wanted. I give a fuck about money. This is more like for status of. Yeah, it's one of those things. He told his fraternity brothers that his grandmother was a wealthy landowner who owned much of the land in Fairfield County, Connecticut. And he talked about million dollar deals and his family had oceanfront homes that they went to. None of this is true. Obviously, no, they don't have oceanfront homes. They're not wealthy. His family, his parents do fine. They do fine. They're comfortable. They're not wanting for anything. But they're certainly not. They're not wealthy people. You know what I mean? At all. There's no oceanfront homes or any horseshit like that. Their house is probably paid off. That's what they have. And that makes them feel good. And that would make anybody feel good. So, yeah. And his parents are paying for his college. Rochester is a private university. So they are paying thirty two thousand dollars a year in 2004 money for him to go to school. OK. It's a, you know, and they're not wealthy. He's a law clerk. And she's. She's a school speech pathologist. They don't make boatloads of money here. So Chris has to figure out how to keep his ruse alive with all the people at college of how rich he is while not actually being rich, which is a difficult thing to pull off. It's tough. Tough one. So he would spend money he didn't have. He had a credit card that he got at college because they hit these kids up with predatory credit cards with higher limits than they could ever afford to pay back and all that kind of shit. And then if he didn't have the money, he'd steal it. To get the money, whatever it is, he's got to keep up this persona. Otherwise, what the fuck is the point of this? Everyone's going to know he's full of shit. He's building a life that's living for today because tomorrow I'm going to have to go scratch and claw again, which is crazy, which is Casey Anthony's hallway. Yeah, it's a lie. Sustainable. There's an end to that hallway where you're going to run out of office doors that could possibly be yours and you're going to hit a wall. So Thanksgiving of 2002. There is a burglary at the house on Broccoli Drive, the home, the family home. It's unsolved. The detectives investigating it said it just didn't quite add up the whole thing. Chris was home from school and the house was burglarized. This was over Thanksgiving. A window screen was cut to look like a break in and two laptops had been taken, including Joan's work laptop from the school district, which I'm sure she then had to repair. So a detective Boudish was here. He's Boudish Boudish, by the way. You bet your ass, as Master P would say. So detective Boudish, he comes in. I'm only giving you his name because he's going to. And I said it like that. So you'd remember it because he's going to come back later. So he said this all just didn't add up. So after that, Peter and Joan install an alarm system. Because they had a break in July 2003. There's another break in and it's a cut screen again. Window open. Same exact deal. Summertime. July 2003. Yeah. And this time, Peter's Dell Inspirion 2650 laptop disappeared. There's really a laptop guy out there. There is. Somebody's taken him. Funny thing is that same day. We'll find out much later. A Dell Inspirion 2650 went up for sale. On Chris's eBay account. Weird. Yeah. And also, things started to disappear from the Bethlehem Veterinary Hospital as well around this time. A digital camera, a camcorder, pocket computers. I don't know what the fuck a pocket computer is, but. Oh, yeah. It's like a tablet, but smaller. 2003, we're talking about. Yeah. Trying to. Yeah. And a cell phone belonging to the co-owner of the. Clinic were stolen after the clinic's alarm was disarmed. And then weeks later, similar items appeared. Where? Chris's eBay. Yeah. So. Bunch of electronics. Yeah. Chris has some problems with money that he needs here. He also has some problems at school. He was what's called involuntarily separated from Rochester University for bad grades. Suspended. Kicked out, essentially. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Involuntarily separated is a very nice way to say, tossed out the fucking door on your ass. He didn't want to, but he definitely left. He definitely did. Yeah. I guess it was for terrible grades. And they told him this involuntary separation is take a year off. Get your shit together. Go to a community college for a semester. Get your grades to normal and then come back and you're fine. He didn't want to leave. Obviously, he's in a fraternity as a social. He's got a girlfriend up there. He's, you know, he's banging chicks. He's doing all this shit. He didn't want to move back to his house with his parents looking disappointed at him while his brother's fucking commanding a submarine or whatever the hell he's doing. He feels like a douchebag. Yeah. You're getting university girls. You don't want community college girls. Oh, God. No, that is a big step down. Huge step down from from sorority girls. Yeah. Yeah. Entirely different. So for a guy like this. Absolutely. Absolutely. So. I think the community college girls are fine. But, you know, this guy, he would know. think it's different so yeah i guess we got to defend them too well i mean who the fuck my wife went to community college damn it i didn't even i've never dated a girl that went to any college that's a lie first of all oh no no yeah that last one yeah definitely went to college very much a lot of college yeah other than that yeah never never mean either it's the only one yeah they tend to they found they find us um childish and and dumb so crude crude yes yeah now anyway he goes and enrolls uh well first he tells his parents that it's a mistake he said a professor lost his final exam they just lost it and then said well fuck it you can't we're kicking you out because your final exam's lost so but yeah there should be proof that i made that you'd imagine so yeah so that's yeah you that's what's bullshit then he said okay i talked to the college mom and dad and they told me they know it was their bad now okay totally their bad okay so to make up for the error because they feel so bad of what they've done to me here they're giving me my next semester for free which would never happen ever college is giving you nothing for free first of all they've seen the error of their way yeah and they gave me a gift card that's what's going on here next semester free yeah they gave me a a punch card for uh 15 credits on the house they punched it all out for me so i get one free semester so they said okay they believed him because why wouldn't you i don't know it's it seems logical and for them they went well we saved 16 grand great cool yeah whatever yeah so he goes to hudson valley community college which is up in albany there um yeah that's a hudson valley is long it goes forever it sure is goes from just outside the city until montreal essentially it's just huge so at this point um she goes there and um she's having problems uh or he's having problems there obviously he's having bad grades there and apparently she's having a lot of bad grades she's having a lot of bad grades she's having a lot of bad grades she found out and that's how she starts this shit failing grades dash you did it again exclamation point okay that's the subject you just left and we can't believe sorry what'd you say it's almost a celebration in the in the it almost makes you want to read you fuck up you did it again you just left and we can't believe our eyes as i look at your interim grade report you know what they say three strikes and you're out explain yourself okay yeah chris is doesn't reply till days later and then says obviously they are incorrect my lowest grade that i got on anything was a b on a physics test don't jump to conclusions i'm fine so these are just incomplete grades that you saw they don't didn't have all my work in and it's it's all fine so um anyway yeah uh when he when he enrolled in hudson valley community college he just didn't go to class and then failed everything he just enrolled but didn't go um his grades came in the mail community community college his grades came in the mail and he said the registrar made a mistake no one can do paperwork at these colleges apparently just with him um so then what he did is he took his failing transcript that they gave him his failing grades and physically forged the grades into a's and b's he physically went in and did like a whole workup on it yeah falsified this document and then mailed it to rochester with a readmission application and they went good for you you got your grades up come on in it worked um yep uh they wanted an official transcript they said and there's a bunch of back and forth emails and eventually they just let it drop and let him in so he just wore him out warm down yeah i can't i can't imagine working that hard to be able to spend 16 grand of your parents money to go that's how bad he wants to live in a frat house fuck off and dick off and way to hear all the stuff he's doing also he told his parents he only needed a co-signed two two thousand dollar loan for school yet he'll live in a frat house and he'll live in a frat house later take out a fraudulent loan for thirty one thousand dollars and we'll talk about that um which is obviously christopher is he's got some splaining to do and uh i mean this is this is really terrible uh financial behavior obviously but the criminality of it oh it's it at such a young age doing financial crimes like that already under the surface just and getting away with it he's really good at it which is scary well he's good at it with his parents who he's learned how to get over on yeah and some fucking college registrar person who's probably overwhelmed with 10 million other applications and just said i don't give a fuck anymore yeah but all it is is admissions yeah it's not like yeah and in his mind though he's thinking i'm so slick i am i'm so good at this yeah i'm just teflon so yeah the loan is the thing chris needed 32 000 for tuition because he was a student and he was a student of the university and he was a student of the university and he told his parents he's getting a free semester oh fuck that's right and they're not getting a free semester so this is case casey anthony's hallway you have now hit the end of the hallway where you don't have the money to pay for the thing that you said was free so yeah you've done all of this work yeah to snow your parents but then there has to be a huge amount of money that's the problem they they believe they believe you and that's all great but now you gotta come up with the cash so um he said i just need two thousand dollars to make ends meet i'd like to take out a loan my own loan for this can i use your social security number a letter from your job and your w-2 so you co-sign for me for this they won't give me a two thousand dollar loan because i'm a college kid and i already have debts peter said peter said i'll just give you two thousand dollars and you can pay me back let's why involve a bank in this like that's well fuck yeah it's foiled my plan yeah chris said no no no i want to do this on my own rather than that two thousand dollar loan and i already have debts peter said i'll just give you two thousand dollars will do nothing for me he said i want to do this on my own i want the repayment terms give me the information and i'll handle it and peter said okay he the kid wants to get his own credit going and he wants to do this on his own so i'll let him do it on his own uh problem was he electronically signed as his father on a as a co-signer on a thirty one thousand dollar loan from city bank which was much more than two thousand um yeah so this is literally he was saying it's only two thousand don't worry about it it's going to be fine um meanwhile at the same time he was emailing the university of rochester saying don't worry my tuition's coming i have a big loan on my way to cover the whole year so i'll be able to pay you guys soon okay he's insane this kid he's this is crazy now he's gonna take out a loan in his father's name not even a student loan no no no i love just a regular old bank loan um then he of course needs to have a really really impressive vehicle because you can't just show up with a you know an 87 cavalier and say you're a rich kid with oceanfront properties you got to have something that shows your status as a cool guy his is a absolutely fucking eye-popping i mean searingly bright yellow jeep wrangler with big tires on it you could not get a more conspicuous vehicle than this fucking car a bright yellow jeep is so dumb the brightest yellow jeep too that you could it's not like a banana it's like some no crazy school bus it doesn't exist in nature this yellow it's wild so uh on it he has a w sticker which is and a and a bush cheney oh four decal so uh he's got big oversized tires on it a big winch on it and all that shit it's it's the the packed in their jeep the loaded jeep that they they park out front like with one tire up on a rock and they're like somebody it'll come in and spend way too much money for this he's the parts department threw up on this jeep just whatever they had yeah just there's like a giant antenna coming off of it and like a an ice cream cone from an ice cream truck just anything they had laying around they stuck on there and all the dice all of it all the ducks so he purchases this with a loan he obtained by forging his father's signature he realized that's a pretty easy thing to do i can get my dad to co-sign on this so he does um it was so recognizable too that everybody knew when they saw it was it's the only bright yellow jeep with huge tires and a winch on it in the area so bright lifted jeep there it is yeah anyway so now he's really got a lot of problems here um mail is arriving now credit card notices car loan notices delinquency notices all in Chris's name, landing at his parents' house. Casey Anthony's hallway is getting fucking tighter and tighter. It's starting to get narrower. Oh, this is bad. So then he has other things here. We know he lied to his friends and acquaintances about his inheritance. That doesn't exist, obviously. At one point now, his parents froze their eBay accounts after Christopher never sent items sold on eBay. Apparently, he put stuff on his parents' accounts, sold it, got the money, and never sent the stuff out. So then they were getting dinged by eBay of where's that shit. So they closed down their account. During the investigation, it was revealed that Christopher posed as his brother, Jonathan, sending emails to people explaining that his brother died and he was unable to send the purchased items. I'm sorry, my brother's dead. He put it up, and I'm just his brother taking over his stuff. He's dead. I don't know where the stuff is, so I can't send it to you. That's how he was trying to get out of it. Okay, but send back the money then. I don't know where he put that either. I have no idea. He's dead, so I mean, I guess file it. The money might be with the camcorder or something. I have no idea. Get a lawyer. I don't know what to tell you. He's dead, so that's that. Oh, my God. He, like we know, he also stole a bunch of stuff. He stole a bunch of shit from the veterinary hospital and all that kind of thing. He's also in a lot of debt from Internet gambling as well. He figured that out early. He's an early adopter of Internet gambling as well. He's a douchebag of the highest order, a frat boy gambling lifted yellow Jeep driving tool bag, like absolute douche. And everybody else is paying the consequences for it. He's answering to nothing. No. Then he got to the end of the hallway and his parents find out about everything because they have to at some point. Because it takes no time at all. No. His dad's the cosigner. So when he doesn't pay back, they go to his dad. You know, his dad's like, hey, my name's on this envelope. What the fuck here? So they figure it out and they threaten to go to the cops on him. They say, we're going to have you fucking arrested for this. This is crazy. Yeah. In one email. Because this is all very fraudulent behavior. I mean, this is very illegal. In one email, his dad here writes. Did you forge my signature as a cosigner? What the hell are you doing? You should have called me to discuss it. I'm calling Citibank this morning to find out what you have done. And I'm going to tell them I'm not going to be on it as a cosigner. So he's in trouble now. He's calling Citibank. Citibank had notified Peter that Christopher had obtained a line of credit for over $16,000. To purchase the Jeep Wrangler. Christopher then used his name to secure the auto loan. Like we said, the parents kept trying to contact Christopher, but he wouldn't talk to them. He wouldn't answer the phone for them. He's got a cell phone. They call. He won't answer. He just bug doors them. Another email. His father wrote. I want you to know that if you abuse my credit again, I will be forced to file forgery affidavits in order to. You know, I don't know. Disclaim liability that applies to the Citibank college loan. If you attempt to reactivate or use my credit to obtain another loan. So if you fucking do this again, I am going to the cops period. Then he said, we may be disappointed with you, but your mother and I still love you and care about your future. That's how good this guy is. That's how nice these people. That's unbelievable. That's how nice not. And you little motherfucker. I'm going to slam your dick in a car door. If you do this again, they instead say. We still love you. Don't they? They won't cast them out. They're still. They're nice people. Nice people. Unfortunately, though, they love this kid. It's crazy. I don't understand it. Joan wrote to Joan said, question Chris's mental health and said, please be honest. Is there something wrong? You're not telling us your father's about to have a nervous breakdown. Why are you lying to us? We're your parents. We love you. They're trying that whole thing. So this is. This is the summer of two thousand four. This is all coming to a head and the fall of two thousand four that the eBay accounts thing that all happened in October two thousand four early October by November 15th, two thousand four. It's the morning and we are at the Albany court complex and old gentle Peter doesn't show up for work that day. No. And apparently he is the most responsible employee that's ever existed. Punctual. Yeah. They said him not showing up is, quote, as unusual as the sun not rising in the morning. It's so unusual that he doesn't show up. The judge sent a court officer to his house to look for him. That's the judge just dispatched a court officer, which most people's if you don't show up for work, they don't have the ability to just dispatch an officer to your house. Wow. These judges really they can get jobs for my clerk. Yeah. OK. And he goes, that's that. Yeah. So. This is about they give him till about noon. He doesn't show up and they go, OK, go over there. So court officer Michael, Michael Hart, he shows up and finds the front door ajar, which is never a great sign. Door open. Door ajar. Yeah. Not open, but, you know, open six inches. That's bad. And that's open. And that's open. Yeah. A key is in the lock, too. So someone opened it with a key, just a single key in there. It's one of the spare keys they have from around. They have a couple not on a key chain, not on a bunch of keys, just a single. No, nobody's key sitting in there. Nobody's car keys dangling from it or any shit like that. Now, he sees that looks in the door and immediately sees blood everywhere again. Oh, no. Bad sign. He looks up at the stairs and sees Peter's crumpled form at the foot of the stairs with blood everywhere. Oh, fuck. Yeah. So he backs right out and sees the house is covered in blood. He backs right out and, you know, and calls somebody. They said at the base of those stairs is the dead body of Peter Porco. Peter is laying on the landing to the stairway going upstairs. His face is pointed up the stairs. His legs are dangling off the end of the landing. He's covered in blood, saturated in blood, obviously suffered tremendous catastrophic injuries. That's the layout of what we've seen here. So he backs out and calls the judge. Doesn't even call 9-1-1. He calls the judge. Hey, I'm here. He looks dead. The judge says, get the hell out. I'm sending the police over there. Okay. The judge just dispatches people places. You go. Evidently. I'm also sending a bailiff to get me some subway because I'm a little peckish. So we could do that. Who called 9-1-1? You've arrived at family court. This is Judge So-and-so. This is Judge Cardona. How can I direct your call? Anybody I can dispatch out there? I got a guy that just helps you do barbecue better. Yeah. I got a guy that just helps you flip your burgers, tell you when to do it. He knows everything. All right. He'll tell you when it's medium rare. He's good. He'll tell you when it feels like the center of your palm. Yeah, you got to feel it. So the first detective arrives and it's detective. It's the same guy from the robbery. It's Bowdish. Same guy. Christopher Bowdish, the detective from the robbery. So they find that Peter is dead. A pathologist finds that he suffered 16 distinct serious trauma sites. 16. Oh, these included a blow that penetrated his skull and another that removed. Part of his jaw. Oh, fuck. This is with an axe. This was done. Oh, my. So he has a big axe thing in his skull. It came in and part of his jaws off and he's dead. Now, that sounds crazy, right? It's a crazy way to die. That's not the crazy part of what happened here. This is this is the thing that we've never had happen before. Wow. Okay. They reconstruct the scene. Okay. And they initially read it as a struggle. There's blood on the floors, blood swiped on the walls, blood in the downstairs bathroom, blood all over the kitchen, blood on the table, the countertop, the appliances. It looks like someone exploded in every room. They're like, how it's like a terrifier movie. Yeah. Yeah. Just smeared blood everywhere. And it looked like two people must have been fighting for their lives here. This was a death struggle and someone lost. But then they figured it out and they said, oh, my God. They said there there was no struggle, actually, from what they figured out. The blood every they figure that out because all of the blood is all Peters. It's all Peters. This is some crazy neurological thing. His he went on autopilot and just started doing chores around the house while he had a shot. He had 16 axe wounds, including his skull broken in half by a fucking axe and half his jaw missing. He just went about his normal morning routine. What? Yeah. So somebody attacked him and he wasn't dead. He got up and just started doing things and left his blood all over the house? That's why it's on appliances. He was doing normal things. He was like making coffee and shit. He became like a Dahmer? Yes, like a zombie. Zombie? Dahmer never tried an axe, apparently. Yeah, I guess you just cleave a guy. That was the formula. And he's fine. Wow. If you do it just right, apparently he'll wander around and do shit for a long time. Unbelievable. It's the craziest thing. The coroner's physician said that there was no injuries that are instantly or rapidly fatal. The survival here could have been many hours. But he didn't know what he was doing. Otherwise, he would have called for help. Yeah, because his brain was, yeah. Exactly. This is literally, they called it autopilot is what the, I guess, neurologists are called. It's a phenomenon that can happen. If your brain is fucked up just enough, it'll do the things it knows how to do and program to do. And, you know, it won't vary from that, obviously. But isn't that crazy? Like Henry Hill in fucking Hannibal when he's got his head cut open and he's serving him his own brain. Yeah. How do you do it? What is it with us that we can do that? He's got to be in pain. That's the thing. They don't even think he was just completely. All the receptors are gone? Didn't know it was going out. Didn't know it was going on. Remember in Deadwood in the first episode, Trixie shoots that guy through the temple. Yeah. And he pulls the bullet out and the doctor is like, he's still like talking. He's still doing shit after he stuck a fucking entire thing through his. A rod through his head. Yeah. Temple to temple. Yeah. And he was like, oh my God, can I take him and study him? This is so weird. I don't get it. And it was some sort of like autopilot he was doing where he kept saying the same thing over and over again. And that's what's, it's got to be something similar. We're not neurologists, so I can't give you the exact medical phenomena here, but. Poor Peter. It's fucking crazy. He was doing like his normal morning shit. He used towels and tissues and toilet paper to try to stop the bleeding from his head. So he at one point went in and went, oh, I'm all fucked up. Better, better fix that. And then went about his business. He gripped the banister. He put, he actually put shit on his head to try to make. Then he went and put on a long sleeve shirt. He went and put on a work shirt. He's getting ready for work. Oh my God. He then gripped the banister and made his way downstairs. Then stood at the mirror dabbing at wounds that he didn't understand because he was, he was just like, well, I guess I'm fucked up. Looked in the mirror. I really caught myself shaving today. He opened the refrigerator and then started emptying the dishwasher. He's doing chores. He's doing chores. He said. The human brain is the most wild fucking thing ever. It gets crazier. He sat down at the kitchen table and packed a lunch. The man was lunch was fucking packed. He packed it blood all over it. He packed a fucking lunch. And then the most fucked up part of all, he wrote out a check to pay Christopher's parking ticket. Christopher had a parking ticket that came to the house. He wrote out a check blood all over it and everything to pay his parking ticket. He actually could write, not just wander. He was writing. Unbelievable. But didn't realize what was going on. Then he, apparently he kept trying to leave the house and couldn't get out. They found it like all the doors. He like kept, he couldn't figure out how to get a door open. I guess he was confused and he was probably dying, losing blood and everything else. Yeah. He couldn't get out. Um, he sat in a chair, uh, leaning over, trying to pull open a sliding screen door. Not, but he didn't realize there was a broom handle in the tracks. One of those. So it doesn't open. So he couldn't get it open. They just saw like his. Hand. He kept pulling at it, but couldn't get it open. He couldn't, he didn't realize he was half asleep. Yep. Like he was sleepwalking. Yep. Um, then he went into the garage where the cars are, I guess to leave. Oh, he put a shirt on and packed a lunch. Um, imagine he gets out on the open road. Imagine you look over and you're like, Hey, nice fucking move. Dip shit. And you look over and you see a guy with a huge ax wound in his forehead. Half his jaw missing. Half of a jaw missing. Oh my God. Oh my God. So there's blood dripping everywhere. And then he goes back inside. So he wandered out there. It was like, I don't know how to drive, I guess, or didn't know where the keys were or whatever the thing is. He didn't leave. He even at one point opened the front door and stuck his head out. So he got out that way because there's some blood on the concrete right outside the door. So he must've opened the door, looked around. Um, and there's also, they also. I think that possibly the hidden key was from him. They think maybe he went outside, accidentally locked himself outside, then use the spare key to get in. So they're, they're thinking that's possible. The craziest day ever. This went on for, we don't know how long this could have been two hours. We have no idea. Um, and then finally he collapsed at the base of the stairs trying to get back up the stairs. That's what was going on. That's why his feet are hanging off the bottom because he was trying to get up the stairs now. And his face is turned up towards the top. Yeah, that's, that's what they find in this fucking place. What a fucking horrible explanation is the worst thing I've ever heard. And the stranger rather it be a struggle for his life. Oh, at least he's got a chance. This is crazy. He's just walking around on this crazy autopilot with nobody able to guide him or push him in the right direction. This is horrible. So if he would have gotten, if he, instead of doing all that, if he would have just called 911, he probably would have lived. That's the fucked up part. He probably would have lived. So then they look around the rest of the house, obviously they don't figure out the whole, he stumbled around and did autopilot. They don't figure that out till later, but had to put that in here. Um, they start looking around the rest of the house. Okay. Um, room by room, they go through Christopher's bedroom, neat and untouched the guest room, all made up Jonathan's room undisturbed, just how he left it. No open drawers, no ransacking valuables. All over the place in plain sight. Um, Joan's purse is on the dining room hutch with money, credit cards, checkbook, car keys, sit right in it. Everything right in it. Uh, her purse is there. So where's Joan? We haven't found her yet. Nothing of value had been taken from the house. Basically the last room in the house they go in and they did this very slowly room by room cause they don't know what's going on. The last room they look at is at the end of the hall. It's the master bedroom. They open up the bedroom door and they find fucking blood everywhere in there, blood everywhere. They see Joan on the bed, covered in blood, massive head trauma. Her left eye is gone out of her head. There's blood all over saturated. They said the mattress is saturated in blood. There's blood on the walls behind it at the foot of the bed. There is a giant. Huge, large, bloody ax with the handle pointing up at the foot of the bed, just like resting against the bed. It's on top of the bed. I don't know if it's in the bed or what across the bed is Joan. So they walk in and they're like, Oh Jesus Christ, skull, skull cracked open. They could see brain. They can see brain. She has no eye. It's bad. She looks at your skull completely fucked. So the EMTs are told to wait outside. The house, because they said it's a crime scene and it's just two dead bodies. So we don't need you in here basically, you know, you'll only fuck things up. Yeah. Then the officers that were looking around the room notice Joan move. They saw her move. So they went, Holy shit, EMTs back in here, back in here. So they run in here. Apparently she lost part of her skull. Her jaw is shattered. She suffered brain damage. She's got throat injuries. All this type of shit. Paramedics run up there. They all said it's the most amazing thing they've ever seen in their career that this lady's alive. They all just thought she was dead. They'd been fucking way. They'd been processing the crime scene for a fucking hour and a half with her just laying there. They're alive. Apparently they thought she was dead. She's alive. That's a dead lady. No, she's alive. She's alive. Moving. So they end up the detective, the one from the burglary, same guy, boutish, he leans over Joan. He starts asking her a series of yes or no questions and she's shaking and nodding. Okay. How she can even do that. I have no fucking idea. She asked all this shit, um, asked everything, blah, blah, blah. According to the detective and two paramedics that were there when asked if did Jonathan do this? She shook her head. They said, did Christopher do this? And she nodded forcefully. Yes. Okay. That's what happened. So the detective had his camera when they found, when they realized she was breathing, he was taking pictures of the crime scene. He was taking pictures of her body of the room and they realized she moved and went, holy shit. She just moved. Um, it didn't make sense too. And he also realized that he knew her because he knew this family from the burglaries that happened a couple of years back. So he was like, what the fuck? And he said, I don't get it. He said, he saw the key in the lock. undisturbed purse and he just said, this is a detective said i could see there was no break-in there was no forced entry it wasn't tossed and tossed the house to try to find shit um he said this to him he's standing in the room going this is an inside job for sure that's why he said is it jonathan is it chris okay right now where are the boys where could they be jonathan's on a boat right jonathan was at naval school in charleston south carolina so absolutely not nowhere near this place uh couldn't be him um now chris says the first he heard of any of this was a phone call from a newspaper intern asking for his reaction to his parents being killed which is not how you want to find out your parents are dead that's a fuck yeah that's a fucked phone call and they said both parents were dead at that point because that's what they had heard oh because when the police initially went in you they said two people are dead here that went out through the scanners which probably were picked up by the newspaper who said two people are dead and didn't realize that one's alive chris said when he heard of it he said quote i kind of dropped the phone and i was completely shocked um but what he doesn't know is that the police have already put a bolo out for chris because he was identified by his mom as the one who did this so they're looking for him they put out a thing across the northeast saying he's armed and dangerous and he's just sitting in his hotel room or his door and he's like i don't know what to do i don't know what to do i don't know what to do at this point he's back at rochester by now doing that so another reason in addition to joan nodding her head forcefully they talked to a neighbor and they said at 4 a.m that morning of the murders this neighbor marshall gokey he said he was leaving for work he's a construction worker so he leaves really fucking early he says that he passes the house and he saw the yellow jeep in the driveway a big bright douche mobile that's right in the driveway the like a big sore thumb he said i have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that was chris porco's jeep period yeah that's it like i said it's the only fucking one so it's his um so inside the house when they're searching they end up finding the the veterinarian place the lady who owns that her cell phone was in a small safe that belonged to Chris in his room. He still had her phone. He kept it? He kept it. If you can't sell it, throw it out, but don't keep it. That's stupid. He sold it. He just didn't send it. He just didn't send it, yeah. True. So that evening, I guess his uncle drove him from Rochester back to Albany, went and picked him up to take him to his mother in the hospital. She is now in the hospital in a coma, having surgery and all this other shit. She's in bad shape. Chris said, I saw her. She was swollen and covered in tubes, and my reaction was I burst into tears. I fell on the floor right there. Problem is, a former youth minister named Joe Catalano, who was also right there. Got him the job. No, this guy tried to help Chris. He was there to try to make sure Chris was okay. Described, quote, being struck by Christopher's odd behavior. They asked if he sensed that Chris had any grief at all in seeing his mom. He said, none whatsoever. It was weird. So Chris tells people he collapsed to the floor crying, and this guy said, I watched him just be like, eh, whatever. Like you told him the Broncos lost today, and he was like, eh, didn't expect him to fucking beat New England or whatever. He's gotta be panicked, right? You would think. Well, later that night, the police want to talk to Chris. That night, they want to have a chit-chat with him. So they bring him in. It is a six-hour interview, by the way. And I had the entire transcript to a six-hour fucking interview. Do you know how many pages six hours of three people talking in a room is? It's hundreds. And I could have read fucking War and Peace last night instead of this goddamn interview. So, this is crazy. Now, this interview is also the subject of a psychological paper, a psychology paper, that's a very commonly looked into study, and I'll give you the name of it and everything later, where they looked at this. Because they look at this as an example of terrible police interrogation, of the way not to get a guy to confess, and basically the way to get nothing out of somebody because you don't understand what they are and what angle to come at them with. Because you don't have a homicide investigating group? Yeah, that too. Some of it, though, is also just I think, just instinctual. Some guys are, some people, not some guys, but some people are good at interrogation. They're good at figuring out exactly what this person is. They fucked it all up. We'll find out here. Now, this psychology paper, they posit that Chris is a psychopath, like a genuine psychopath with no fucking remorse and no anything. So, they're saying if you have a psychopath in front of you, you have to go at him a certain way. You can't go at him the normal way. It doesn't work. And so, basically, this paper is this is the way they went at him, and this is why it's wrong. This is how they could have possibly gotten more out of them if they understood psychology. Interesting. Now, Chris says I wanted to be as helpful as I could, the quicker the better. When they asked him directly if he did it, he said I can't say enough. Absolutely no. That's way too many words before no, first of all. That's one, two, three, four, five words before no came out. And none of them really go together. Nope. Why say that? Your answer should have been no, and I can't say enough no, but no. But no is first. He said I would never do anything like that to anyone, let alone my parents, who I love dearly. Dear, dear people they are. Okay. Six-hour interrogation. I'm going to, like I said, try to pick, I tried to go through and really get the parts that were interesting, a little bit funny, or that mattered. Now, in this study here, this paper, they list psychopathic personality traits as at the top of this interrogation to talk about. They said interpersonal, superficial charm, grandiosity, lying, conning, and manipulative. I think we all could have put that together, probably. Effective, under effective, they have remorselessness, mellow affect, callousness, failure to accept responsibility. Those fit Chris so far pretty well. Lifestyle, impulsivity, stimulation-seeking, irresponsible, parasitic lifestyle, lack of realistic goals. Basically, every open mic comedian we've ever met is a psychopath. That's what it describes. All of those things so far describe 87% of every comedian. That last bit is so important. So important. Under antisocial, they have poor behavioral controls, delinquency, criminal versatility, meaning they can do not just one crime, they can shift, and early behavioral problems. Now, I am going to read from this. They say the questions and answers outlined here do not reflect the order in which they were asked, which I tried to put them in more of an order of which they were asked, because I went into the fucking goddamn whole thing and figured out where those portions were, and yeah, this wasn't easy. They illustrate how the investigator's strategy of attempting to overwhelm him emotionally was not as efficient as it could have been. You can't overwhelm a psychopath emotionally because they don't feel it. No. They don't feel it. Yeah, they don't have it. They don't have it, so that works with people that feel guilt, but if you have someone in front of you that doesn't feel guilt, that means nothing to them. They just go, I don't know what you're talking about. But every time you ask them a question when they, because they don't have that human emotion, that behavior, when you ask them that question it should be oh so obvious that there is a problem right now. Absolutely, but you can't get them to confess that way is the problem. Great point. The only way you can get a psychopath to confess what they're saying basically is it has to be more like a practical thing that they understand or getting something out of, too. Well, you also got to corner them until they realize that there's no way to explain my way out of this, a la Chris Watts and, you know what I mean, when they see that there's no way out of the explanation then they'll confess, but that's the only way. That's the only way, and plus they have to feel like they're getting something out of it, too. And that, yeah. That's the other thing. It's one of the two. They have to feel like they have a chip to play. This is a game to them, so if they have a chip to play to get something out of it, they know they're fucked. Yeah. And they'll use that to get something. And they like control, too. Otherwise it has to be, yeah. Otherwise it has to be, we know that you did it. Just fucking say it. Yeah. A lot of times they're almost amused by the back and forth because it's a game to them, and they think it's funny. Yeah. The worst, the coldest ones, too. Yeah. So they asked, this detective, the boutish guy, asked, what sort of securities would your parents have in the house? And Chris said, alarm system. If they remember to turn it on, usually it's on. And the detective said, did they have like a medic alert or a panic alarm or anything on it? And Chris said, yeah, like if someone was putting a gun to your head and you're that's how it gets on the alarm. There's like four buttons you can push that tells the security company that. It's like a panic button basically um the detective said some of them have remotes that you can hang or you know have in you or next to your bed and chris said they have a remote and the detective said there was and chris says i don't know where they keep it they used it they used to keep it in their room um he said i don't know if they've ever used it they got it because in the downstairs foyer there's a motion sensor and they got it so they could disarm it in the morning but they never we never use the motion sensor anymore my dog used to set it off all the time yeah if you have dogs you can't have motion sensor shit um so the detective says yeah sure sure yeah yeah which is a great yeah sure yeah sure sure yeah yeah um chris says so it's only set on stay which means i guess all the windows and doors are secured but the motion sensor is not on uh so he's detective says sure and chris says in theory people can't come in um Um so the detective says well okay so they probably didn't set it at night is that what you're saying and chris said no they normally do a lot of times my dog would go out he's pretty old he's 11 or 12 and a lot of times he'll come up and whine at one of us at like two or three in the morning and we'll let him out and a lot of times they'll forget and they don't turn it back on so that's what he's saying how the alarm may have been off in the middle of the night chris says i don't know if it was armed at the time i don't know but then the detective said does your dad get up during the night and chris says yeah typical guy i don't know what that means uh he said well i mean is he an early riser or is he and chris said they both get up around 5 30 i think and the detective says really and um chris says i think my mom has always gotten up around uh she goes to mass every morning at 7 30 that's before work she goes to mass right um another detective interrupts and says not to interrupt um that was that was my boss that just came in and he just wanted to make sure that you're all right with talking to us you know we're not in here uh did you hire you didn't hire an attorney or anything today did you and chris said no the guy i generally talk to he's an attorney uh like he's a friend and they said okay is he representing you and he said he probably couldn't because of the relationship with my family and they said okay but are you still okay talking to us and chris said uh-huh and um they said you know i mean this is something that we i told you we're collecting information right chris said okay yeah back to peeing okay because we got interrupted from peeing detective boudish says i mean like me i probably get up to pee about three times a night oh boudish see a doctor daddy oh you are not well i think boudish is i think boudish is like in his late 50s so i think that's that's probably what you do in your late 50s i always hear that you get up all the time when you're older i don't know i get up no i definitely get up once a night um for sure because i drink i drink so much fucking shit i pound like half a bottle of water before i go into my bedroom like an idiot i don't know what it is maybe i should talk to my doctor because i can sleep 12 hours and not pee once that's great that's terrific that's good um i think that's okay no that's good yeah me i know what i'm doing as i'm drinking the water i'm going i'm gonna be up and peeing in three hours fuck and but i'm doing it anyway i do it every goddamn day if i tell myself not to do that and just specifically don't drink anything an hour before i go to bed then i'm fine but if i drink like half a gatorade and a whole bottle of water before bed i'm fucked so three times three times seems like a lot of peeing yeah that's a lot of peeing um he says um um oh yeah my dad gets up to pee a lot my mom well i don't know if she does um so they said the detective said but then again he doesn't have to go that far right and chris says yeah he goes 10 feet if that he said there's a bathroom right there chris says i've heard her get up a bunch of times she'll get up when i get home usually she's a pretty light sleeper she'll hear me come in detective says how you doing in school chris says all right all right yeah detective says are you really chris says not bad which went from all right to not bad which is not the same thing the detective said what's your grade average chris says 2.8 2.9 which isn't great and the detective said really and chris says could be better detective says yeah it could be better but you know whatever um so they go past that they get into his finances they talk about his jeep payment his credit card bills and they're adding it up they're like so your jeep payment's like 300 bucks a month you got a credit card bill with a minimum monthly payment not monthly payment of this month you have this you have that and they're adding that up going how the fuck do you pay for that shit and he's like well i mean i have a job but my bills are behind because i don't really have much money i got to get like a more steady job at school and blah blah blah they said so who's been paying for these things while you've not been working and chris says me and and detective says well how are you doing that and he says american express bill i think is late actually i'm not really sure and then detective bowers goes a real long like you can keep talking now um and they said well what about the car and chris says what about it they said you said you were late on the car also and he said yeah my parents paid that so they're even still after all this shit they're making his car payments paying his parking fee and he's like well i'm not getting tickets it's crazy that's the other part he doesn't have any money he's in the red and he's gaining fully he's not he's not even following the law of where to park the fucking thing no not even at all he's a mess getting more tickets so they said yeah sure sure was there like a hide a key outside they get into now okay um chris said there's a couple there was one under the deck in the back and he said under the deck where and he said well i don't know i don't know there's a nail it's hard to describe i think i can show you there's one under the deck and on the right side of the door there's a planter and it's on one of those little things on the planter on the right side of the door and he goes into way more detail that i won't get into here um so they said okay is there anybody that works around the house anybody that does the lawn anybody that's you know and chris says not really i mean a lot of people would know our garage code and where the key is so basically anybody could have broken into the house a lot of people would a lot of people a lot of people um the detective said how would they know that chris says like friends of mine and stuff you know so he used an n stuff any you know and then follows it with a like so those are all horseshit words he said like after that he said like friends of mine and stuff you know like like would come home and there's an audible words and there were times i'd use the key i use the front door a lot late at night just because of less noise because i don't want to wake anybody up so yeah so he's saying i i i tell my friends the code or i bringing them with me yeah that's what he said so people who have come over and then later on he goes he says well a lot of people have seen me like typing in the security code like my friend so they'd be right there they might know of it so he says it's not as intrusive i guess chris goes on to say the detective says sure well and then chris says that was more that was more in high school i would use the front door to come home late at night instead of the front door to come home late at night stuff the detective says right right well that's why i guess i asked you if there was any valuables left in the house i mean in these situations and all of them we try to find motives and chris says yeah and the detective said well that's the thing we do and chris says right yeah okay the detective said so was there large amounts of cash was there chris interrupts and says you know why and the detective said jewelry was there chris says i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i mean my mom does have jewelry and they said stocks bonds and chris said i don't know they've never had large amounts of cash in the house before my mom has jewelry but nothing you know extravagant or huge no crazy you know we have the hope diamond sitting in her fucking bedroom nothing's gonna impress my douchebag friends no no i mean i could give to a girl and impress her nothing like that no no so the detective said did your father ever have any problems with anybody from work and chris said i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know I mean, he's had death threats and stuff before, you know, as one does. That's real normal. The worst problems to have. Obviously, who doesn't? The detective said, right. When was that? And he said it was more when he used to work in criminal court and stuff. And the detective said, yeah, I remember that because they all know his dad. So they're all working on the court system. They all know his dad. Everybody knows him. So Chris said he had, you know, people call. They're going to kill us and stuff, that type of thing. Now, the funny thing is, if that happened, he would immediately contact the cops and they would have a record of that, which they don't. And it's people that he would likely be people he was defending. There's a record of who he's defended and they wouldn't be able to deny what they've done. Or some family of the victim. Or some shit like that. But, yeah. And if you're a lawyer who's getting threats of, I'm going to kill your whole family, you immediately call the police after that. You're not in the mafia. You're not like, well, I'll show Fat Tony who's a fucking threat. that's not how how it works you know what i mean yeah it's just liabilities of this job that's all it's uh career things yeah it's just a little uh caveat to your career thing here so he said but you're listed in the phone because you're listed in the phone book the detective said and chris says i mean i don't think to my knowledge he's ever had anything like that in years i mean he's an easygoing guy to easy to get along with you know and the detective said i remember when he was working there and chris said oh he's the best the best so they said so how was your relationship with your parents he said it's good it's good um the detective said i mean i had a problem with one of my parents so you know i mean you know most of us you usually kind of lean toward you know one or the other i mean you've got to talk to one or the other or one is usually in a usually a pain in the and the other detective said did you go uh did you go to your dad and then you can't hear chris said definitely my dad was more he wouldn't jump to conclusions as fast and he wouldn't start yelling and stuff he was more easily easy to talk to more reasonable is what he's saying i love how the lawyer the detective put that though you know so i said i had a problem with one of my parents like i can relate to you buddy and then yeah we're pals and then a bunch of words salad you know so i mean most of us you usually you bet but but but but but false starts um yeah so they said okay uh they said how was your mom and he said she would be fine after the initial reaction so she might freak out at first then she's okay yeah the detective says okay well all right so let's so just so i can get the whole thing straight you left town about 3 15 so i've got to ask these questions and he said and he said all right you left your girlfriends at 3 15 you stopped by your parents briefly on saturday that's the day before right okay um he said yeah and they said right after that nobody was home except for the dog and he said yeah i went in saw the dog and left where did you go when you went into the house here and he said well when i opened the door the dog came you know say hi i went over and turned off the alarm and went over to the garage to see if there was a car to see if my parents were home so they said okay so you found out no one was home and you left you got on the thruway and then drove back and he said directly back to college and the detective said right and then they talked about what exit and they go on like a three-page thing about fucking roads in upstate new york that you don't need to know about it's very smart to do it that way because oh you had the specifics yes matter oh they pin them down to that it's just it would be really boring for you guys to hear so route 29 well actually route five goes to henderson village and then you go to bill road no it's like oh it's mind-numbingly boring but absolutely necessary to set the whole thing up for them not for us basically he said he took a straight route on the thruway back to the fucking place because it would take eight hours to get there the other way that's it um so they said at this point it's it's sort of a procedural thing in a case like this also i usually ask if you'd be willing to give us a sample and chris says sure dna yeah sure and the detective said well it's just saliva that's all it is it's no big deal and chris says definitely and they said all right have you ever been arrested and chris said no and the detective said you're a clean mother aren't you which is just a hilarious line for some reason i don't know why it is you're a clean mother aren't you and he said right clean mother all right what i guess i guess the the insinuation is it's a clean motherfucker but uh oh yeah you're a clean mother stupid why would you're a clean mother you're a clean mother aren't you um then this next part taken out of context is just amazing if you just screenshot it and have it on a notes all right hit chris do you want me to take my pants off detective yeah chris sure detective okay just lift up your boxers you don't have to okay what's this stuff chris says i don't know i've got acne i don't know he's got like a herpy outbreak or something but he said i don't know i've got acne the detective says okay what did you have to eat today chris says soda cookies hot dog what are you fucking eight how are who what are you eating this is a very austin powers scene they like always have somebody blowing somebody in a shadow or something absolutely hammering a hammering a dildo toy well he's looking in the fridge bending over yeah it's totally is what's going on here it's a wild question and answer that sounds incredibly dirty what's this under don't you don't lift up your boxers oh you don't have to do that wait what is that what is this oh i got acne it's and then what'd you eat today which makes it sound like he farted on them or something which is even better so he smells piss in his asparagus soda cookies hot dog wow that's a wild yeah like he went to a nine-year-old's birthday party is what that sounds like in the backyard oh you had a fourth of july party how did you have that today the fuck so the detective this is a great line damn you're not going to school to be a nutritionist are you that's the detective's life which is hilarious that's brilliant or a dermatologist apparently not that either he says no and they said well you can have a seat just leave that off for now it's getting warm in here and his pants the detective said it's like a friggin oven in here i'm gonna take my shirt off in a minute this is getting this is crazy it's that's like just take this page out of context and it's a fucking fat shit you're gonna have two naked men sitting in an interrogation room one of them with a gun holster on it's ridiculous because it's getting hot in here it's getting hot you just got a naked now he's hot now i'm getting hot i gotta take my shirt off 10 minutes ago you were fine officer oh my god uh so they start asking them about do you have an easy pass if you don't know what an easy pass is if you're from a state with no toll roads an easy pass is a thing you stick on the upper part of your windshield and that way you don't have to stop at every fucking toll and pay money it just it just pays it off the thing it's electronic so new york seems like the only places that don't have that yeah are places from arizona going east south of the 40 yeah that's it everywhere else it's everything north of the 40 all has them yeah we rent cars they got easy passes on them when we're going from place to place yep so he's got the easy pass and they ask if he does he says he does and they're like oh that's real convenient saves you a lot of money that easy pass and he's like oh yeah i love it blah blah blah because the thruway and back is a charge it's like costs like in the beginning you used to get this sheet uh when you get on the thruway that would tell you basically how much it is to each exit and it would be like you know forty dollars to go to buffalo from here you know what i mean like crazy expensive so and that was 30 years ago 25 years ago so the detective said um i was up there what that one night i don't know if you remember me being in there when your house when your dad called about your house getting broken into um he says well you or the other detective i mean i don't know i mean i'm sure the detective says okay it was maybe you weren't there at the time maybe you were out for the evening uh home for the holiday maybe last thanksgiving and chris says i don't know one of them was on a thanks was on thanksgiving night the detective said yes i think that's when i was over there i think and chris says i'm not sure you are sure and that's what that's when it was the detective said and supposedly somebody had crawled in through the front window and chris said it happened both at the same time same thing he meant both burglaries it was the same thing because it was the july 2003 burglary as well he says the detective says right right and as you know the strange thing about that whole thing was that there was snow on the ground remember that was a real bitch of a winter because but now it's hot let me take my pants off oh yeah feeling better we should go back to those days when it was cool out oh yeah so the detective says right it snowed the whole time and the front window who was said to have been well the screen was cut i guess and chris says the detective said in the front window was left open a little bit but i couldn't find friggin footprints in the snow outside the house i couldn't understand that you know i mean if it's snowing and someone comes from the outside of the house they gotta leave prints in the snow right right because it couldn't could never crack that chris says hadn't it snowed that day i don't remember but i remember us talking about this at the time and the detective says yeah but i well i don't remember that i can't tell you but i do know there was a recent it was like they realized that day uh that something had happened right and i think if it had it was just a dusting and he said and they had all this stuff around maybe i didn't have anything fresh and i just i couldn't understand that you know you're saying like you know what i mean wasn't that weird no one came from the outside of your house to break in so he's beating around the bush that he suspects chris broke in his own house or it was an inside job nobody flew from your fucking window so no who the fuck would have done it unless they were in the house oh my god you were in the house maybe it was you oh you were out so then there's a couple just very funny asides they say at that point this is right after i couldn't understand that you know the next detective says you hungry i'm starved we have pizza up front oh and chris says i'm fine thank you and detective says you want a slice of pizza and chris says no thanks and he says how can you decline free food which i think is a great line how do you can you decline free food he says anything to drink besides water or is water good he says water's fine blah blah blah so they're sitting there after they eat pizza by they went back and forth about the pizza he said maybe i'll just get a bagel later and they go oh we wish we know and we would have stopped at dunkin donuts and got you a bagel we went out to get the pizza you know oh damn we thought you'd eat pizza yeah apparently hot dogs and cookies are fine but not pizza that's you know health is where he draws the line yeah it's very it's very particular about his pizza is all absolutely so they talk about his fucking up in school and they say too much partying and he says yeah they say do you drink much and he said do i no bitch somebody else my partner who the fuck do you think i'm talking to anybody else the the mostly naked teenager mostly naked 21 year old sitting in my goddamn fucking office is who i'm talking to stupid with thigh acne yeah with with thigh acne um they said do you drink much and he said do i and they said yeah and he said yeah they said has it become an issue with your parents at all chris says no never i think we talked about it a few months ago i used to drink in high school occasionally about once a week for that's not occasional for high school by the way that's a lot for high school yeah i i'm not a i can't use me but i'm not a drinker but you know yeah people i knew that were drinking you know every once a month every couple weeks do you have a party or you go sit in the woods or whatever the fuck but once a week it's a friday night yeah it's the friday night party that yeah somebody's parents went out of town if you're doing that every week that's a lot of drinking that's a lot i mean i smoked a lot of weed that was way more than once a week but it was once a week was i don't drink once a week now you know what i mean yeah i don't i mean i drink once a month maybe bottle of wine we'll have and that's about it that's about all i drink yeah like when we go out we're on the road and we go out that's like i haven't drank in weeks so i'm like hey we're gonna tie one on and drink some wine tonight so i'm pretty fucking heavy for a minute there once a week would have been chilling it out but as an 18 to 20 year old child once a week drinking that's high school when you drink that 18 you drink heavy yeah oh yeah you're getting it all in while you can we got a half hour before someone's parents come home chug that it's a binge yeah and this this was not 18 to 20 this is 14 to 18 this is in high school so that's a lot of drinking that's a lot here um he said they never knew until we talked about it i mean you take your time and blah blah blah because then it's inaudible so they said what do you drink and he said cheap beer yeah frat douche and they said do you and he said mostly yeah what kind of beer and he said do you and he said mostly yeah what kind of beer and he said do you and he said bush what do you think the answer is jenny light worse than bush jenny light the fuck is that geneseo i believe is that the geneseo i think i've never heard of it that's what they must be that's what the drunks that's what the real drunks used to drink in pennsylvania like if you went to my relative's house in scranton they had kegs of jenny fucking geneseo beer and it was this oh brutal um i the detective says oh my god i've got to look into that i gotta look into the law there might be a law for drinking that kind of stuff that's pretty bad breaking his balls um where were you last night and they said okay this is sunday night right uh and he said yeah they said so you studied for the test in the library until 11 because this is his alibi now um he said he had been with his girlfriend before that he's got a girlfriend named sarah that he's been with for a they said you studied in the library till 11 he says yes they said what what then he said then i watched total recall the arnold schwarzenegger movie 2004 all right he's watching total recall um would that come out like 90 91 something like that yeah 92 yeah uh the detective said in your dorm room and he says yes um so they said who did you watch tv with and he said me and myself at that point stupid answer uh people came in and out but i wouldn't say they were watching um so it's sunday evening and he said i watch tv by myself um so you said you watch tv by yourself and he says yes total recall it's not important i think it's on the computer in my room um but he kept saying total recall so the detective says so you went in um from what time to what time do you mean did you mean 11 did you get back and chris says about one so they say 11 15 until and chris says about one so they say 11 15 until chris says not long probably a couple hours i watched total recall the detective says you watched total recall okay then what we get that total recall thank you he keeps bringing it up um so he goes i i need this long i yeah i just have to see it so he says at that point this is chris at that point rd the rd the resident uh the regional director he the resident whatever went to sleep in my room and i was in the lounge i fell asleep you fell asleep in the lounge in the lounge and chris said that's where i was sleeping and they said when is this and he said last night they said oh last night what did you sleep on and he said a couch it's a university issue there's couches in there they said what time did you fall asleep he said i was watching i'm not sure what time i watched tv until i fell asleep so that's what he says out of that now was a total recall i think he was watching don't quote me almost positive was total recall so probably fell asleep watching tv until i fell asleep so that's what he says out of that now was a total recall think so so then they say chris this was a crime of passion there was a lot of emotions going on here this was not a robbery okay and chris says i didn't say that it was a robbery i don't know what happened you haven't told me anything about it there's absolute there was absolutely no arguments ever huh what does that have to do with anything um uh so they're they're talking about all this and uh uh detective said i wish i wasn't i wish i wish i haven't wasn't having to tell you all this i really do but i'm telling you the truth son and it hurts me to do this i don't enjoy this whatsoever and chris says i don't think you do either and the detective said honestly honest to god i knew your father for a long time that's why i'm saying that maybe maybe something got out of hand all right i'm trying i don't know you know i'm trying to say maybe i can i can help a bit a little bit here maybe all right but someday you've got to work with me a little bit all right i've got to try that was word salad meant nothing terrible interrogation all that because he's not good at this at all he's bad at this um chris says there's nothing to work with i don't know what you want me you want me to come in and say that i killed my parents that would be a lie that's fucked up i would never do that there's no way in hell you know you think i'm i'm cold and stuff how do you uh how do you know what uh you don't know how to do that you don't know how to do that you don't know how to do that you don't know what i've been like and the detective says well i mean i'd have to agree and chris says you have no idea you have no idea what i'm feeling right now and and the detective says we don't and he says no you don't you don't and the detective says it doesn't seem like it's bothering you because when i talked to you today at three or four o'clock on the phone you sure didn't sound really upset then either and that was a half hour after you found out so now they're starting to close it in he said i was extremely upset detective said sure didn't sound like it and chris says you're not being very perceptive which i think is a hilarious line then the detective comes in again and with another word salad here detective jumps in and he says look look it's let's not get temper short here okay what i'm telling you is fact i'm telling you the truth all right that's why i'm sitting here right now talking to you all right yes i would have to talk to the rest of your family because of course i have to all right but you're you're the one i was talking to right now and this is why i'm sitting here right now talking to you this is the information i'm that i have and i'm telling you the truth i'm not lying to you all right there's no doubt about it and there were other people who witnessed it all right meaning he's fought with his parents before chris says i'd like to speak to them and see for myself i don't believe that and the detective said what difference is that going to make and chris starts saying something it will make and the detective said unless you're suggesting i'm lying to you you know what look it i've been in this business a long time i couldn't lie to you because he goes on and blah blah blah blah blah so um he says maybe it was an emotional flare-up or something you know maybe um that's what i'm looking for give me something to grasp here let me get through the night chris says nothing happened and he said and you understand what i've been telling you this is not a robbery this is a crime of emotions and chris said i know what you're telling me i i don't know i have absolutely no idea so then the detective says i mean like i estimation that situation the way i'm seeing it was something happening out of a passionate moment chris says you told me they were in bed so I don't know how passionate that could be, honestly. How much passion could someone outside of that? Well, maybe there was a third. We don't know. Yeah, but I mean he's not understanding that there doesn't have to be an argument that happened right then. It could have been something that's been bubbling for a long time. The point is the lash out is the passionate part. But he's saying there was some sort of emotional thing. Your father yelled at you. You yelled back up at Escalade. Yeah. So he said, and then afterwards, those emotions subside, and the thought is, what's happened? What have I done? What has happened here? What an awful thing. Chris says, I agree it's an awful thing. The detective says, sometimes your emotions get the best of you and overtake you. And Chris says, true, but I can't help you. The detective says, your stomach is going to burn a hole in it. The only way to stop it is to be a man. He's now, this is directly from the psychology paper here, commenting on this. The investigator has attempted to play into Porco's emotions and manhood as a strategy to elicit a confession. But the strategy got him nowhere. Interviewers must avoid belittling the psychopathic suspect. Right. Not going to help. They're just going to fight you and push back. Porco gives bland answers, absent of emotion. Neither do his responses offer any insight into the truth. Instead of attempting to get him to feel guilty about his actions in the hope of a confession, the investigator should have remained calm, similar to Porco, to ask questions. Match his demeanor. He doesn't feel guilt, so that's a fucking dry well, is what they're saying there. When Porco's responses did not match the evidence collected, the investigator should have calmly confronted Porco about the inconsistency and further allowed him the opportunity to bury himself with more lies that could be revealed at trial. and further allowed him the opportunity to bury himself with more lies that could be revealed at trial. together with his lack of emotions just hours after attacking his parents. Great point. Yeah, this is why these people are doctors. About midway through the interview, a detective from the New York State Police was brought in. He was very matter-of-fact in his inquiry and non-threatening in his approach. He questioned Porco about his trait of grandiosity. And that's this. The detective said, I'm still not quite understanding why you'd go around telling people you have all this money. That kind of baffles me. Chris says, No, I. The detective said, You put on this facade. And Chris said, It is. And I've done it for a couple of years now. He knows he has to admit that, because everyone talks about it. Yeah, I'm a bullshitter. So the detective says, What does that say about your character? And Chris says, Exactly. Which is a weird answer to that. Exactly. Exactly, okay. Interesting. So, what kind of personality. What do you like? What do you think about Porco? What do you think about my new shirt? Pork chops. Okay. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Then he says, Chris, seriously, what. No, tell me, what does it say about your character? He said, you tell me what it says. I'm not throwing an insult. What does that say about. I'm asking you what it says. Fair. Chris says, I guess it's insecurity in a way. And then the detective says, Does it tell you that you're an honest person? And Chris says, Not in that respect, no. And he says, Trustworthy? And Chris says, I think of myself as trustworthy, I guess. If we're going to respond in reference to this, no, I guess I'm not. So this is the approach to take with Chris. Right. Gotta make him admit things that he knows he has to admit. You gotta point out his bullshit so that he doesn't have a way to escape it and just make him look right at it. But not with guilt, because that ain't gonna work. Right. The detective says, I mean, if I'm a student and I meet you and you're telling me you're gonna buy a house because you've got millions of dollars from your grandmother, Chris says, true. He said, you're basically lying to these people, right? And Chris says, Well, it kind of steamrolled away. I got too far down Casey Anthony's hallway and I couldn't turn back. There's nowhere to go at that point. Cops showed up and walked me into Universal. What was I supposed to do? Of course I had to lie and say my office is right here. The detective says, No, let's not color code. Let's not color code it. And Chris says, I know it's wrong. And then he says, the detective says, Do you consider it lying? And Chris says, Oh, definitely. Yeah, you know, I'm telling them something that's not really true. Then the detective says, Are you a pathological liar? Something you do all the time. Chris says, I don't think so. I mean, maybe in that respect. So then the detective said, Well, what other things have you lied about? This is good progress. Chris says, Really one thing. Yeah, I'm trying to think of anything else. Just me. Money. I don't really know why I got started on it. It was in high school. So this is from the psychological paper. Quote, This non-confrontational style, the detective should have continued with Porco. The detective did not have to browbeat Porco into the admission that he lies. Yet as the interview progressed, he too fell into the same strategy the other detectives followed, which was to use an emotional and confrontational approach. In the Porco, the detectives initially gave Chris the option to choose the crime of passion motive for the kill that produced no confession. Next, the detectives pitched the morally repugnant motive for the murder. These are both guilt-based, though. That's the problem. Okay. Yeah. He says, the detective says, Let me guess. There's an insurance policy. Chris says, I would kill my parents for money. Brilliant. Which is totally the my cousin Vinny. I shot the clerk. It says right here, I shot the clerk. I shot the clerk. I'd kill my parents for money. Brilliant. Okay. Brilliant. They said, Chris. Exactly. Yeah. They said, Chris, you have no alibi. Do you understand that? And he kind of grumbles a little bit. They said, you have a motive. I don't understand. And Chris says, I don't understand what you think my motive is. And the detective said, well, money. And he said, I'm going to kill my parents for $300,000. I mean, come on. Okay. Does that make sense? Is that all it is? There's a little bit more than that. He's downplaying the insurance at this point. There's, I think, almost a million in total. Detective says, yeah. Okay. Chris says, why? Wow. Okay. The detective said, people do it all the time. And then Chris says, that's horrible. He's clutching his pearls now, closing his cardigan. He's very upset by that. He is virtuous. Very virtuous. That's horrible. Yeah. The detective says, you know, you know what I'm saying? You got to get this off your chest. This is going to eat you up. You know that, don't you? Your hair is going to fall out. You're threatening him with baldness. Chris says, that's what's going to happen to you, man. Chris says, I can't help you. So again, this is from the psychological paper. The problem with attempting to confront Chris with these two different motives is that neither motive is applicable or matters to Chris. That's the problem. Yeah. We don't have any evidence that he's super vain about his fucking hair. No, no, we don't know that. He might be thinking about shaving it. We don't have no fucking clue what's going on. Specifically, Chris does not reactively kill because of an argument he had with his father or mother, nor is Christopher bothered by the morally repugnant reason to prove motive because his pathological narcissism reflects a highly entitled, highly exploitive person. He does not have a problem with taking advantage of others for self-gratification reasons, nor does he engage in a moral debate about the rightness or wrongness of a given behavior. We even see after he invokes his rights, which is coming up, the detectives continue to question him because of their frustration. The detective says, listen, all right, I've known you for a long time, for a long time. All right. I'm not going to ask you anything. We'll take a ride and let's try to straighten this out. OK, we're going to go up to we'll go take a polygraph and make sure you're or at least exonerate you. He said, let's get in the car, go take a polygraph. Come on, it'll be fun. Hop in. Be a good time. We'll we'll stop for hot dogs and fucking sodas and cookies. You'd have shotgun. We don't care. Get in. We don't care. Chris says, do I have to have a lawyer present for that? Oh, boy. The detective says, no. Well, at least it will exonerate you from from this. And the detective, Chris, says, right. I want to have a lawyer present for that. This is a problem with a guy who's the son of a lawyer. He's I'm surprised he lives. Let it go on this long. The detective said, why is that? And Chris says, because I'm not sure that I'm being treated fairly. The detective says, you're being treated fairly. I assure you. Chris says, well, I'd like to make sure of that. The detective says, well, if you are accepting to take the polygraph, are you accepting to take it? And Chris says, I'll take one. The detective goes, mm hmm. And Chris says, after I've spoken to a lawyer. Yeah. Yeah. They said, why do you need to speak to one first? And the other detective says, well, look at Chris. Why would that be? And Chris says, because I want to make sure my rights are protected. I feel I've done nothing wrong. So they answer back. Well, I'll tell you what. I'm not going to run the test. It's not me. You know, if you're worried about that. Chris says, I'm not saying you're biased. I don't think you are. And the detective said, no, we don't do the test. And he says, I hope you don't. I know you don't. And detective says, well, look it. I'm just going to throw this out to you real quick. I had a rape case some years ago, all right? I hope it was that he was investigating, not against him. Jesus. He said, the person went in and took the polygraph and passed it. I shook his hand and bid him a good day. I'm serious. I'm dead serious, right? Afterwards, I found out through further investigation he was, in fact, innocent, all right? And Chris goes, that's good. He's a selfish. He does not care about that guy. That guy, he could have said, I pushed him off a cliff, and Chris would have went, all right, that's good. He wouldn't have given a fuck. He didn't care. Yeah. The detective said, that is why I keep telling you, keep us, like I said, give us a baseline here. And Chris said, after I've spoken to a lawyer, I'd be happy to take one. So then the detective says, well, I'm going to tell you this, too. He's just, this is crazy. No lawyer I've ever met has allowed their client to take a polygraph, and I'll tell you why. It's because they feel as though it's never going to be good for them. If you're innocent, though, it will. It will indicate that. I'm telling you right now, it does indicate false or true. Chris says, oh, okay, I know they work very well. The detective says, we don't do it, so that's why I would hope you would just take it to eliminate you. Please. Now they're begging him. Please. Please. I implore you. Chris says, after I've spoken to a lawyer, I'd be happy to take one. Detective says, as I said, I don't know of one. And Chris says, I'll talk to a lawyer about it. I'll talk to a lawyer about it and make a decision. I don't feel I have anything to hide, but, and the detective says, well, you know what? If I felt as though I was, it was still incriminating of the evidence I have right now, I wouldn't be asking you to take it because I wouldn't need it. Yeah. So he basically said, I don't have any evidence against you, so I need this. I've got nothing, so give me a polygraph so that I can make something. When he told him I have nothing, Chris swelled, you know, he probably gained 100 pounds in ego at that point. And Chris said, I understand that. And he says, I hope there wouldn't be. Chris says, I honestly believe that if my mother told you that I killed her husband, you would have already have, you'd already have me in handcuffs. Because they said your mother nodded. No, they said your mother nodded. And we think that's why we thought it was you. And he's like, look, obviously you don't think that's true. Because if you did, why would I be sitting here in my boxers being offered pizza? I'd be in handcuffs. Right. So. I'm being asked about my fucking hot box. God. Yeah. The detective said, no, I'm dead serious. So here is the psychological paper. Again, we see Porco agreeing to take a polygraph with a lawyer present and how the detective questioning him about why he wants an attorney. We also observe how much bolder Christopher becomes with the detective on criminal matters. Initially, during the get to know you stage, Chris was more subdued. But once he called the detectives bluff, the egocentrism could not be contained. Now you figured out you guys have shit. And we could sit here all day and I'm not going to give you anything and you don't have anything. Although the entire six hour straight transcript cannot be transcribed. It is. And I have it. It's a mess. The unfortunate aspect. I mean, in their paper, they can't put the whole six hours. The unfortunate aspect is that the detectives offered little in terms of sophistication, no indication of a planned interview and how to conduct follow up questions with information. Christopher disclosed they appeared chaotic, spoken vague generalities, and there was no match for them. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But one thing she knew was her son is goddamn innocent and he's not the one who did this to me. Really? Yep. And they told her, but you said when you were going in, she said, I don't care. I don't remember it and he wouldn't do that to me. So, no. I don't remember it. He definitely didn't do it. That's right. Wow. Now, the prosecution, there's a neurosurgeon that the DA is going to hire here. This is the guy who did the 12-hour surgery that saved her life. 12 hours? Well, imagine doing surgery for 12 hours. That would be horrifying. Not only as a patient, as the doctor, that would be crazy. So, they testified that the injured part of her brain, the frontal lobe, controls emotion, not sight or speech, and that there was no medical reason why she couldn't have identified her attacker while she was on the bed being, you know, when they found her. They said she could have been able to do that. Then the police discover all the dark side of Chris, by the way. Um, Because now they figure out the manipulated college transcripts, the false grades. It's more than just you stole some shit and put it on eBay and maybe stole your parents' laptop or whatever. The Jeep is douchey enough, and the way you went about getting it is even worse. No shit. Oh, my God. So during the course of this, authorities determined that Chris had a history of antisocial behavior that included burglarizing his parents' homes, stealing and selling their computer equipment on eBay. And Joan's stolen laptop, they found it. They tracked it down. It was sold to a man in California. The sale is traced right back to Christopher through his bank account. Police flew to San Diego in 2005, recovered the laptop, and in court, the buyer said the seller is Christopher Porco. So that's done. The Jeep now. Okay. Four campus and off-campus cameras caught a yellow Jeep. Just look. Just like Chris's. None others do. Leaving Rochester at 10.30 p.m. on November 14th and returning at 8.30 a.m. on November 15th. Uh-oh. That's not good. Toll collectors on both ends of the thruway remembered a yellow Jeep with huge tires, a winch, a W sticker, and a young white male driver because that stood out more than any fucking car they saw that day. You idiot. Get them. You should have. You should have got a Mazda Protégé and shut the fuck up and nobody would have noticed him. Instead, gotta be a big shot. The W? Is it George W? That W? Yes. Yeah, yeah. That's what it's for. And then a Bush Cheney sticker, too. So then they look at Chris's E-ZPass, which he normally used, but today it was found jammed down into the console rather than stuck on the windshield. So it couldn't be read. Okay. So he just paid cash, which meant paper toll tickets. And we'll get to that in a minute here. Okay. Now, here's the timeline they put together. Sunday, November 14th, 10.30 p.m., a campus parking lot surveillance camera records Christopher's yellow Jeep leaving the University of Rochester. He said he was moving it off campus to avoid a parking ticket. Okay. The prosecution said, no, you weren't. You're getting on the goddamn thruway to drive to fucking Albany. Okay. 10.36 p.m., a camera on the roof of a medical center captures his Jeep headed east. Toward the thruway to go to Albany. Yep. 10.45 p.m., thruway exit 46 in Rochester. Toll collector John Fallon says he handed a ticket to a young white male in a baseball cap driving a yellow Jeep with large tires. He remembers it because he thought it would be a nice car for his son. Oh. Interesting. Yeah. 11.30 p.m. to 3.30 a.m., Chris says he was asleep on the couch in the dorm. Having given up his bed for a visiting fraternity president. But the frat brothers who were up watching a movie in the small four-couch lounge until 3.30 say he was never there. We sat there the whole fucking time. And he said it's a square room and some couches and TVs. It's not like maybe he was over there and we overlooked him. He wasn't there. There's nowhere to hide. Yeah. Do you know if someone's in your living room? Probably. It wasn't like they were in a ballroom. Yeah. So. Yeah. 1.51 a.m., toll collector Karen Russell recalls a yellow Jeep speeding into her lane. A young white male at the wheel. Exit 24 is less than 10 miles from Broccoli Drive in Del Mar, the house. 2.14 a.m., the burglar alarm is deactivated using the master code. At the house. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Only a handful of people had it. Peter, Joan, Jonathan, Christopher. An uncle and a close family friend. In case they go out of town, probably to watch the dog shit like that. The keypad is smashed also, by the way. Oh? They said the alarms, they said it looked like they were trying to hide that the code was used, maybe by smashing the pad. But the alarm's memory is in a box in the basement logging all the shit. Yeah, it's elsewhere. Yeah. So smashing the keypad didn't do shit. And they said using the master code, this is what the cops say about Chris. Using the master code was like dropping his wallet. He dropped his wallet at the crime scene. Like, dude, we know it's you. And you were there at 2.14. And at 1.51, you were 10 miles away. It all lines up too perfectly. 2.15 to 4.54 a.m., this is the, the axe used is the family's fireman axe. Like, to go through a wall or trap for a fire. Yeah. The fire safety axe. Absolutely. Yep. And they said this was in a dark room. And all of a sudden. And also, Peter had blackout shades for his sleep apnea because he would wake up. Apparently, this, this happened in their bed. He attacked them in their bed. 16 blows to Peter, multiple blows to Joan, and the axe is left at the foot of the bed, handle pointing up. Okay. 4. Yep. 4 a.m., the neighbor who was leaving for work to do construction said, I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that was Chris's Jeep in their driveway at 4 a.m. Mm-hmm. 4.54 a.m., company, phone company records show the telephone line running from a pole across the wooded backyard, a spot that Jonathan later said Chris knew well because they'd shoot paintballs at the junction box as kids, gets cut. So the phone, the phone is cut at 4.54. A garage window screen is also cut and the window left open. So it looks like it was staged, someone breaking in, cutting the lines, breaking in. 5.12. 5.12 a.m., thruway exit 24, Albany. The Jeep reenters the thruway heading back toward Rochester. Mm-hmm. 8.30 a.m., the medical center rooftop camera catches the yellow Jeep returning toward campus in Rochester. Three hours later. Yep. 8.45, a student testifies she saw Chris jogging across campus near a bridge in shorts and a baseball cap, minutes before his frat brothers say they saw him asleep on the lounge couch. Mm-hmm. So, the alarm log. The basement showed the master code disarming the system at 2.14 a.m. Only the family had the code. We got surveillance video. We got toll collectors. We got an easy pass not used. We got all this shit. You know what we don't have? Ah, fingerprints. We don't have DNA. Yeah. Yeah. Then they get the toll ticket. Oh. Okay. The DNA expert testifies later that mitochondrial DNA on the thruway toll ticket matched Christopher at a. 99.6% probability. It's pretty good. It's pretty good chances. Pretty decent. Yeah. When you put that with everything else. Now, through all of this, what do you do if you're Joan? Because you're alive. You're obviously saying he didn't do this, so you don't. But wouldn't you be, if everyone's telling you he did it based on evidence, wouldn't you be kind of like, oh, shit, maybe I should be careful with my son here? You gotta buy in, right? Well, she buys in so hard, she starts writing letters to the newspaper. She starts writing letters to the newspapers, begging the police and the papers to leave her son alone and hunt for Peter's real killer. Wow. Yeah. Absolutely. She wrote one to the Times Union. Is that delusion or is that just, yeah, is that being a good mom? I'm not sure if that's being a good mom, being supportive. It's hard to tell. I don't know how to put myself in the position of being, I mean, this close to being fucking murdered with an ax in my own bed and the cops are telling me my son did it. He's my son. I mean, my husband's dead. All I have left are my two sons, and I can't put anything on her. I don't know what she's thinking. I got one of each, and if I'm told, yeah, if I'm injured and I don't remember it and a cop tells me that either of my kids did it, I'm throwing them both in jail. Oh, I believe them both, yeah. One of them talked the other one into it. They were right on it together, probably, is how it goes. So here, though, yeah, I don't know if it's, I don't know what it is. It's wild. So she said. And a part of her letter was, I want to say unequivocally that although I have no memory whatsoever of the attack, I'm absolutely positive that my son was in no way involved in this heinous crime. That's amazing. No, don't remember it, but I'm positive. So November 4th, 2005, the grand jury indicts Christopher for second degree murder and attempted murder. He's pled not guilty. And that's it. They take him away. A judge on. Right after that, set bail at two hundred fifty thousand dollars cash or a one million dollar bond, which is a lot. December 2nd, 2005. He's out on bail. He posts his fucking mom and his family and his friends raised his bail. Unbelievable. Okay. Asked how he felt by the press. He said, quote, pretty good. He's absolutely innocent and looking forward to the trial. He's straight away. Looking forward to it. Yeah. This is where a lot of people say he was like living it up during this time, pulling a Menendez, like a full on Menendez party and driving the Jeep around, just living it up during while he's out on bail. Now, where is he going to live? Well, veterinarians that he worked for who'd known him since they were a teenager took him into their home where they already have two teenage kids. You know what? This guy in there. He said this. this the veterinarian said i'm aware of evidence that they did find at the crime scene that makes me believe that it was not christopher this point she's pointing to a fingerprint found near the cut phone line this fingerprint was never matched to chris or anybody else not anywhere else in the house by the cut phone line way in the backyard okay january 8 2005 big article in the newspaper threat to judges tied to you are dad slaying university of rochester's dad slaying okay a letter that allegedly threatens two sitting new york judges and one who is retired is tied to the investigation into the homicide of the father of a university of rochester student christopher a junior majoring in economics had been questioned by the police about the attacks on his parents who lived in the hamlet of delmar according to the albany times union the letter allegedly stated that porco's death was quote a starting point oh yeah in addition to yeah in addition to cardona who was the judge his dad worked for the letter also named new york chief judge judith k and thomas keegan a retired state supreme court justice the letter was sent to the times union in late december and the paper reported it um i said because of its threatening tone security has been ratcheted up for the judges the times union reported the newspaper gave the letter to police um unopened because it contained a powdery substance which was analyzed and determined to be harmless this was in the time when people thought anthrax was in every fucking letter remember that remember that brief time period oh yeah i worked i don't know i worked i worked at the arizona theater company and you had like there was a certain procedure to opening the mail i'm like we're a non-profit theater company who the fuck this has nothing to do with any i don't think anyone's going to try to kill us over here i think we're okay um yeah so uh they said that uh heffron said he would classify the letter as a break wouldn't classify the letter as a break in the case it's just another area we're investigating uh joan has been released from the hospital and is staying with family and getting a lot of outpatient care they said we've interviewed her and it's safe to say at some point in the future we'll re-interview her so who knows if this letter is real now pre-trial okay um several new york area psychologists and mental health professionals familiar with the case stated that christopher porco fits the profile of a psychopath and they focused on his pattern of lying and deceitful behavior um they also pointed out his pattern of the grandiose perceptions of centering on himself as a member of a wealthy family and all that shit um while awaiting trial many found him to be strangely arrogant drinking in bars attending concerts going out to entertainment establishments and driving around he's out partying he's partying i mean there's certainly a way to drown your sorrows in something but to be out in public like that when everybody knows what you what you're accused of going at some point he was doing this yeah which is nothing you should be doing while you're under murder investigation yeah he's raising a glass when they said raise your glass you know good fuck man are you kidding me that's wild and still driving around this searingly yellow jeep too as well unbelievable so yeah a forensic psychiatrist psychologist wolfert said there's an overlap between psychopathic and narcissistic tendencies christopher believes that he that the rules do not apply to him and he has a need to show off in front of people his defense attorney is a character by the way uh terry kindlin is his name legend of the albany kind of criminal defense area here um this guy had left ithaca college when he was younger to attend to enlist in the marines where he was wounded during the ted offensive in 1968 jesus he got a purple heart a bronze star with the v for valor and medically retired as a sergeant then finished finished college went to albany law school did five years as a public defender with peter porco impressive and built a career on criminal defense and civil rights um he's also a pilot and an angel flight volunteer i don't know what that is and a father of seven he's got a lot going on is angel flight is that not uh never i have no idea some sort of make a wish thing maybe i don't know i thought it was like uh taking care of people in a plane when they're all maybe not sure um his co-counsel is his wife by the way laurie shanks an albany law school professor who handled the technical spine of the defense dna neurology and um making joan into a sympathetic figure so they get some wins they win a change of venue okay they got bail they got the entire six-hour interrogation suppressed tossed all of it because the lawyer uh because a lawyer had identified himself to police as chris's attorney and been kept from the interview which is not quite a miranda violation but it's they call it a miranda adjacent violation it's close and it's not it doesn't hold up because i remember in the homicide book they were saying how one of the things they know is like when a lawyer comes in says i want to see my client you don't have a constitutional right to your client your client has a right to you meaning they have to ask for it not you ask for them they have to ask for you so they could be sitting in there for hours and that's not their fucking problem but apparently that's uh also in maryland in new york there maybe are a little more to the letter of the law um the judge does allow the nod in though really the nod yes which is a big fucking deal the trial is moved um to goshen new york which isn't that far from me because the capital region publicity was overwhelming and albany judges all had to recuse themselves because peter worked in their courthouses so there's no way now other evidence prosecutors allege uh that chris asked two friends to take an economics test for him because he knew he'd fail it this is leading up to the murder so they're trying to show bad character in the weeks before the murder they said he became less and less social due to the increasing stress in his life he became violent at times oh he allegedly choked one student until others pulled him off of him and threatened to kill a female student who was teasing him to kill a girl wow whether jurors heard all this depended on the judge's rulings on prior bad acts much of it was fought um fought over well before um um so the change of venue like we talked about that's about a hundred uh miles now the peter and joan each had a will if both died the estate went to the sons and with life insurance and death benefits the estate ran past a million dollars wow yeah so the prosecutor said they're only worth 60 000 alive dead they're worth 1.1 million what does that say um fuck them fuck them now joan is supporting chris this whole time she's sold her life she's sold her life she's sold her life she's sold the house for 260 000 in 2006 and moved in with her brother oh my god yeah joan don't do this so the trial happens joan is there every day um both sides paint a very different picture of chris okay the prosecution said he's a young man living in a house of cards through deception who invented a rich kid persona telling frat brothers that his grandmother owned all this shit while he robs from his own family and forges his father's signature and sells stolen goods on ebay it's all honest it's all real yeah well the defense's version is way more like hey boys will be boys they call him a happy-go-lucky kind of goofball college kids who maybe did some really dumb things but loved his parents and everybody likes him financial crimes that are going to be caught one day wow talk about two sides of the same coin that is that is you know what i mean that's um also the vet job now for the prosecution it was proof of trade craft they said basically that chris had been trained to clean up after animal surgeries trained in how to avoid biological contamination he knows that very well okay he said but the defense said here's a kid who two veterinarians trusted so much even though he was accused of murder they let him into their own house with their young children and everything else so that goes both ways um also the master code the state says the alarm was disarmed with a code only the family knew then the keypad was smashed uh but the defense said peter had the habit peter himself had a habit of shutting down the alarm to let the law the dog go back out then neglecting to put the alarm back um also the key in the front door they said that the hidden spare key was left in the front door which is a mistake by him um the defense said a bloody disoriented peter believing he locked himself out may have used that key while while wandering either way um also the cut screen in the phone line the people said that's staging the cut in the backyard phone line in a garage screen to fake a burglary the defense says a cut phone line raises the question of whether a professional did this not a college kid okay um also the surveillance the jeep the state says surveillance shows the jeep leaving rochester at 10 30 p.m and returning at 8 30 a.m the defense says that only proves that he left campus to dodge a parking ticket shows nothing about where he went the people said, okay, well, how about the toll ticket with his DNA on it? Does that prove it? 99.6% consistent. Mitochondrial DNA. The defense said mitochondrial DNA could fit 70-plus percent of the population. The ticket passed through the hands of a now-deceased detective who disliked Porco because Chris had dated both his daughters. So there was a chain of custody problem with that, they said. He's fucked sisters? Apparently went out with them at least. Well, I don't know that he fucked them, yeah. Yeah. There's the neighbor, the guy who saw the Jeep at four. The defense said maybe he's mistaken. His stepfather's a cop. Another neighbor drove a similar Jeep. Nobody remembers one specific car on a long street at 4 a.m. They do if it's that. That's the thing. If it's a bright yellow lifted fucking Jeep, they do. And I have a picture of the fucking Jeep I'll post on social media. It's noticeable from space. It's unique. It's unique. The Hubble telescope said he's driving the Jeep on the fucking thruway. I can see it. It's crazy. So also the missing blood here. The state says he may not have gotten much blood on him. He had hours to change and he was vet trained to avoid contamination. The defense said swing an ax 15 or 20 times and you're covered. The Jeep torn down bolt by bolt held not a molecule. No blood because he didn't do it. Oh, wow. Now, the burglaries, the state says a documented power pattern of staged break-ins and eBay sales. The same playbook as the murder night. The defense said even a staged burglary linked to Chris has no direct link to the homicide, even though he's done this before. As a matter of fact, the defense has alternate suspects. Oh, is that right? We have fucking options for you. Oh, theory one is the mafia did this. So, yeah, the mafia, by the way, the porcos are clearly they usually do hits with giant fucking axes. Yeah, that's how it works. And just leave people. They make they don't make sure anybody's dead either. They just whatever. Now, well, they said Peter allegedly had a relative named Frank, the fireman Porco, who's a reputed Bonanno family captain who got a suspiciously short 24 months on a conspiracy to commit murder conviction. Which the defense? Attorney argued smelled like a cooperation deal and a snitches family as a target. So their their thing is this guy cooperated. He's a snitch. So Peter and Joan were attacked because his relatives a snitch and Peter's the fireman got a short sentence. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And the fireman's axe left on the bed. Oh, fireman Porco. Yeah, that was like they said that was the, you know, horse head in the bed is what they said. That's how you know what it was for. Yeah, that's how it was. A theory. He tried to bolster this guy by moving into evidence, a newspaper story about a councilwoman who'd found a severed horse's head in her pool. OK, another alternate suspect is an angry litigant. I may even have one in mind. They even have an angry litigant in mind. Yes, Peter and Judge Cardona had years earlier in family court work to custody. Case who's losing party allegedly threatened to, quote, yikes. OK, well, a couple of fun words here to, quote, get those two guineas and that fat kike. That's what they fucking said. A threat. Who said that where that could be documented? Apparently, they said it out loud to people all the time. That was what they kept saying. Jesus Christ. Interesting. Imagine being called the guineas fat. That's normal. That's usually how it goes. So I think we got off easy. Yeah. My family law situation was pretty contentious. I've never resorted to racial slurs. I wouldn't even think of that in that scenario. I'd be like, that was the last thing you'd be thinking of. This was a threat that was actually credible because they pulled Christopher. He was evacuated from. Elementary school over it. So they were actually taking that seriously. Another theory is a stranger in the driveway. Joan had told more than one person that weeks before the attack, a stranger had walked up her driveway and fled when the motion light came on. And then Jonathan, under oath, confirmed that his mother had told him about that as well. Now, to all of these, the prosecutor's answer was we checked. The leads went nowhere. This was a methodical investigation. This is that leads to nothing. So in the opening statements, the prosecutor builds this big thing here. Yellow Jeep told all the shit we went over here. The consistent post-murder story of I slept on the couch in the dorm only to have his own frat brother say that's horse shit. The state said we marched everybody who was in that lounge that night and they all said Porco wasn't there. He walks through the incredible horror that he calls it. The morning routine of the dying father, the fucking autopilot person, the load of this forged loans, the mad emails over a million dollars in the state and life insurance. They called it a house of cards collapsing in the exact week Peter died. The hallway was ending. His thesis on the alarm code became this. They said using the master code was like dropping the wallet at the crime scene. He said it's not a rush to judgment. It's a case built on a dying woman's nod. And I said, it's not even that it's based on the investigation that went on for a year to confirm that Joan was right. So they didn't arrest him for a year. The defense here. The is very interesting here. They said the defense right away said that was without a doubt one of the most riveting opening statements I've heard in all my life about the prosecution statement. Yeah, he said that. Yeah. And he said he admits he stole shit from his mom. He stole shit and put it on eBay. He said to Chris's life was a mess. But those two things. Things don't go together. The defense also turned the car's visibility into an argument for innocence. Quote, if I was wearing a white wedding dress right now and a pair of pink sneakers out here, I would basically be the human equivalent of Christopher's Jeep. Yeah. Okay. He said you do not commit a secret 460 mile round trip axe murder in the most conspicuous vehicle that has ever touched asphalt with fucking rubber. It's just he said you don't hide. I did a Jeep like this. And he said he's good at it. We're just saying he did it. He said when police seized it, drove it back to Albany on a flatbed and took it apart bolt by bolt at the blab. They found Wendy's wrappers crushed up cups from a fast food restaurant. This is the defense said college kid junk blood, not a molecule, nothing. Okay. Also the nod. They said the conversation as far as from the conversation as you can get and still. Be alive. And he said the room was dark blackout shades, all this shit. Joan was asleep when the axe came down through her face and had no opportunity to observe her assailant. They also mocked the absence of any mental status exam, recalling his own head injury and standard questions of what country are you in? Who's the president? What year is it? And that nobody thought to ask this woman with her brain exposed any of those questions. And they also said that she could have. Just simply have been responding to the name Christopher because that's her son and she knows who that is. They don't know the only forensic trace of Chris at the scene. The prosecution admitted was a single fingerprint on the outside of the basement door where the dog had been shut in a door. The family said was never shut on the dog. So he also put the dog away as well to build a character case. The police fanned out across the University of Rochester and interviewed. Two hundred seventy six students using questionnaires. The defense called a hoot. A hoot. That was a real hoot. Yeah. They searched forums in vain for a single question like did Chris Porco ever do you a favor and found only prompts fishing for the bad. Was he mean? Did he lie? Did he push people around? None of nothing good. He said this whole year long effort was just a thesis of confirmation bias delivered at full volume. He said if police found a fact that fit their theory they fell in love with it they encased it in concrete and they brought it back to Albany and made it a brick in their case if a fact didn't fit they gave it the old side words kick get out of here and then they talked about the mob and the fireman's act and all that and they said the state's theory was a bizarre grotesque fairy tale that the Grimm brothers if they were smoking crack couldn't think up. That's a visual for you. The Grimm brothers just fucking. The Grimm brothers on crack James. Sucking the glass dick the Grimm brothers. Things have gone bad for them. Really wrong. The brothers Grimm create some really wild shit. Put them on crack and they still couldn't figure this out. They got all their crack from Aesop too which is another problem. I mean people are nuts. Witnesses the veterinarian employer said he trained Chris to avoid contamination there. Jonathan. There's. There's also a Christ Almighty hours-long interrogation of jonathan as well that i didn't get into but i mean i got into it but i didn't put it in here but i read shit loads of it for nothing so fuck um he described the layout of the house the alarm the axe the wills the family all in a flat careful military monotone um he said he laid it all down the master code was 4416 the axe with the red head and wooden handle and the wills testifying that he knew if both parents died he and chris were the beneficiaries um when they asked him to describe his current relationship with his brother he said quote it's been strained recently it's weird you know since he tried to axe murder my parents it's been yeah you know up in the air uh they joan is there every day during a break in proceedings joan comforts young chris at his birthday party that they have for him in whatever little room they have there um the defense's case since we've laid out the prosecutions the defense neurologist um who was actually treating joan said following a simple command she testified she doesn't require memory and lives in a different part of the brain than the function that lets you understand and answer a question about who hurt you she said there was no real verification that she could use yes and no correctly because after a brain injury many people use them incorrectly or have a bias toward one or the other because their brain isn't working all bets are off your brain has a fucking axe through it yep a dna expert said we cannot say for sure that the dna on that ticket is mr porco's joan testifies oh boy joan gets up there stakes this is scarred whispering one eye gone she told jurors it's from a newspaper she had no memory of the attack and no memory of accusing anyone and that her son was a kind loving compassionate person who reminded her of her son peter she said i know my son i know he could not have committed those these acts her husband peter her husband what would i say yeah her son peter i meant husband yeah yeah her husband peter so she's saying uh chris is as gentle as pete is he's a great guy yep he's gentle chris that's what we're going to start calling him from now on the verdict comes in and he is found guilty of second degree murder and second degree attempted murder now the verdict came back so fast the jury was out for a very short amount of time yeah when they said they leave and they go okay we'll see everybody tomorrow or in a few hours so joan wasn't even there to hear it she wasn't in the room yet because it happened too fast chris said will you please will you please be the one to tell my mother he tells his lawyer jurors made a point they actually wrote a note for joan to tell them that they were that her nod played no part in the verdict because they felt bad for her that she would feel guilty that her nod put her son there that are not so they yeah they said we believe that she didn't know what she was nodding to we threw that out we could dismiss it completely we don't care what she was nodding at he drove to fucking to your house maybe get a less conspicuous car dummy just a thought you know um mitigating evidence here comes sentencing a lot there's a lot of uh shit uh for some mitigating stuff here joan asked the judge for concurrent sentences not consecutive sentences so maybe she might live to see her son be free okay the judge says i fear very much what happened in the early morning hours of november 15th is something that could happen again you sir may fuck off 25 years to life on each count consecutive 50 years minimum before parole um he'd be parole eligible in december of 2052 at 69 years old oh that's brutal um yeah after his conviction he insisted in an interview that the his father's true killers were still out there he said at this point i have very little confidence that they will ever be caught well no well then why haven't they done it again why has no why is there why is nobody else to bet yeah yeah yeah 2006 there's a 48 hours episode here um which is into uh there um he actually said if i wanted to sneak home on the thruway why would i take a big yellow car yeah stupid that's what we're wondering yes why did you do that chris fuck 2009 forensic files episode um he appeals the appellate division third department in the new york court of appeals rejects his direct appeals they also reject his case in 2011 confirmation clause fight over jones nod um the u.s supreme court twice declined to hear the case 2013 we'll do this very quickly there is a life a lifetime movie based on this that he sues lifetime over this is very interesting um um well anyway that by the way it stars lolita davidovich and uh the guy who played uh i'm willing grace the the fucking brown haired guy will eric mccormick yeah yeah will yeah will it's got will and lolita lolita davidovich in this movie uh it's called romeo killer the chris porco story which makes no sense and it says he was slinging dick in college that's the well the the description is a charming but devious college student is accused of killing his wealthy father and attempting to murder his mother in their home while they slept a lot of that isn't true and that's what it is he sues to block it arguing it was fixed fictionalized he said okay because newsworthiness makes it so we can say whatever we want based on the facts and put this out because it's newsworthy we can put his picture up from a newspaper on our site we can do shit like that but if we made it up we can't do that yeah that's through some extra details in there like his brother molested him for 12 years and i knew it and we knew it was wrong and it wasn't like published somewhere where we could be accidentally think it was right yeah so he sued as far as i know no we don't have no diddling in the house all he sued lifetime to seek the bra the block of the broadcast under new york civil rights law section 51 which is the privacy law section 51 functions as a right of publicity law that bars the use of a living person's name portrait or picture for advertising purposes or the purpose of trade porco alleges that the docudrama violated his rights under section 51 because it uses his name without permission and is not protected by the newsworthiness defense as understood under new york case law because the film is substantially fictionalized so they they tried to make it about him but also too far um sure he moved for a temporary restraining order which was granted by the court by the way the newspapers are all like fuck this bullshit this is crazy that you're doing this you have to let lifetime do this and uh they eventually do um they went back and forth it aired in 2013 but he kept suing um it was reversed and the trial court granted lifetime's motion to sue to dismiss the case in 2017 there's another reversal holding that porco's complaint did state a claim for violation to the statutory right to privacy then the new york appellate court reverses the dismissal action against lifetime for it's crazy it goes back and forth for years on remand to the trial court both sides moved for a summary judgment in may 2020 years seven years later the court denied the party's cross motions for summary judgment holding that the issue of whether the docudrama was materially and substantially fictitious must go to a jury so it keeps going and keeps going and keeps going 2016 his defense attorney retired after winning an acquittal in his final uh his final case here that's clinton or clindlin kindlin sorry um okay hold on to that for a second 2016 joan loses a pension case against the state of new york teacher's pension thing i don't know how the fuck that works but it's very interesting um 2019 she joins his lawsuit against lifetime putting her hat in the ring too um 2022 she signs a sworn affidavit supporting uh chris's latest bid to overturn his conviction writing that she is certain that a gross miscarriage of justice has occurred january 2023 a long island law firm uh barkett epstein kieran aldea and low turco um they apparently filed a motion to vacate the conviction alleging ineffective assistance by kindlin and shanks suppressed evidence and above all an impossible timeline they say the trial defense never broke broke down okay they said could anyone drive from rochester in the dead of night commit a bloodbath clean up buy gas unseen and be back on campus by 8 30 a.m um okay uh so kindlin and shanks his original attorney say they dispute any assertion that we did not give him a full and vigorous decision defense and they're known as really good really thorough really really you know top tier lawyers in the area so um they also say that that a detective with the bethlehem police department had a prior relationship because of the daughter thing and they allege this detective didn't like porco therefore shouldn't have been allowed to work the case they also say there's no fingerprints on the axe no blood in the jeep and joan recanted her nod um okay they cite a pathologist who looked at the evidence and determined that she was the one who was the one who was the one who was the one who could not have died when police said he did undermining the prosecution's case and porco's team said police were aware of a potential alibi witness that would have placed chris on campus in rochester at the exact time the police say he was driving down the thruway to commit the murder. They further allege this information was deliberately buried in a mountain of paperwork so Porco's lawyers would miss it. That's not how it works. He also does an interview. I'm sure Porco's lawyer was very careful and read every fucking word. Yeah. He does an interview from prison with John Gray. And he said, I didn't commit this. I had nothing to do with it. I've said that from day one. He says his mom is the toughest person you'll ever meet. We speak every day. She has borne the brunt of all this without a doubt. So we've got to go through this together, really. We're the support system for each other, but she's endured much more than I ever will. He said, it bothers me that people think I'm a killer. I have to stay focused and prove my innocence. He gets a new lawyer involved. Then in November 2024, the Albany County District Attorney retires and a new one comes in, Lee Kindlin. His lawyer. His lawyer's son. Really? His lawyer, who he's saying is ineffective. His son is now the guy who's going to oversee all this. So this is a conflict of interest. So a special prosecutor of the Schenectady DA's office is assigned to argue vacating a conviction because the current DA's own father tried to. It's a mess. So that's what's going on. What the fuck? So it's still going on. The appeals are still happening. Shit's happening. Peter is buried at St. Agnes Cemetery in. Menands, New York, which is in Albany County. And Chris is in fucking Clinton right now. Dan Amora is where he is, which is a horrible, horrible, old shithole. Awful. He's having a bad time in there. Let me tell you something. That's not partying at college in a yellow Jeep. No, no, no. That's tough living. No. His number is 06A6686 in custody. In Clinton. And there he is. By the way, the source, that psychological thing we were reading from was case study. The flawed interview of a psychopathic killer. What went wrong? Journal of investigative psychology and offender profiling. And it's by Perry and then Frank S. 2011. That's all I could get. That's the source. So there you go, everybody. That's Del Mar, New York. That is Albany region there. If not him, who? You know. It makes all the sense in the world. He did it, in my opinion. I mean, that's just me. It looks like he did it. I don't think we have to say that, right? No, no. He's convicted of it. I don't mean for legal reasons. I mean just, I think he did it. He really did. I don't see who the fuck else would have a reason. Come on. Yeah. I'd probably, I'd bet at least one ball on it. Put it that way. Maybe not my balls. If a neighbor saw a yellow Jeep. That's it. It's over for you. It's over. And everyone saw the yellow Jeep going to the place you weren't supposed to be going. I don't care that they didn't find any blood in it. That just means you're even more cold-blooded. That's more calculated. That's more fucked up. Yeah, he's not. That means you showered in your mom's house. He's not stupid. Right. Yeah, he's not fucking stupid. He might have hosed off in the backyard for all we know. We have no fucking idea. So anyway, there is Del Mar, New York. Hope you enjoyed that. If you did enjoy it, get on whatever app you're on. Give us five stars. It helps so much. We don't know why, but it does. It helps a lot. Netflix, those thumbs up mean the world. So thank you. Thank you for being on our side here and hanging out with us on Netflix. We really do appreciate that, too. And all the audio listeners, you know, just on Libsyn and everything else. Thank you for what you do, whatever app you listen on. Thank you, everybody, for hanging with us here. Definitely head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. Come out and see a live show. They are fucking fun. They're coming up so fast. September 18th, Milwaukee, the Pabst Theater. There might be a few tickets left for that because we released all our comps and holds and shit. So check for those. 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As soon as you subscribe, you're going to get access to almost 400 back bonus episodes. One crime in sports, one small town murder. You get it all this week for crime and crime in sports. There's a guy named Lawnchair Larry. And that's because he tried to make an aerial device out of a lawn chair. And you can imagine how that worked out. But the saga of it is fucking hilarious. And we'll get all into it. That's sort of a. Sport, right? And then small town murder. Donner party part to let the eating commence. The buffet is open, everyone. It's going to happen. Season it up. We will get into all of that. In addition to all of that, which is enough anyway, we also give you all of our shows, everything crime and sports, your stupid opinions, both small town murders all ad free as well. Holy shit. And then ad free. And then on top of that. You also get a shout out, which is going to happen right now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever drive jacked up bright yellow jeeps and try to murder us in them. Jimmy, hit me with them right fucking now. Does the executive producers are Gary Howard in lurking Texas? Oh, boy. Gary, Gary. Boy, happy hour in plain dealing Louisiana. I think that's a draw, fellas. Yeah, you guys. I don't know who wins this week. Those both sound god awful. Elena Zemel. Elena. I can't wait to see you this coming week. Penny Boyce, Rabazz Vlogs, Robaz, Robaz Blogs, Vlogs, James. I don't know. Britt Emanuel also. Thank you all so much for everything you do. Thank you. Super matters. Other producers this week, Peyton Meadows, Janice Hill, AI, no name at all. Nicole Jay, Crystal Dawson, Rachel James, Laura, Laurie, Larry. That's Larry, not Laurie. Larry. Larry. Larry. Turner. Chelsea. Larry's such a guy name, too. Yeah. It's like such a Larry. Sounds like a hairy man. Chelsea Nye, Bill's daughter, I think. Oh, perfect. Adriana Shaw, Adriana, perhaps. Stephanie with no last name. Amber Smith, Kelly Johnston, Niancy. What did I? No, that's just Nancy. No last name. Celeste Sunbot, Andrea Knopp. Tracy with no last name. Paige with no last name. Terry Ann, Daisy Bowman-Vallee. Val, Val. Taylor Perkins, Matt Heritage, Susan Ullman, Faith Astley, Eric Doozell, Brooke Rice, Jay Mack, Lucky Lee, Alyssa Kilmurry, Michael F., Kylie Preheim, Niecy with no last name, Mateo, Matthew, Peralt. Is that Mateo? It's spelled like that honey badger guy. Yeah, yeah. How did they pronounce that guy's name? Mateo? Vanessa Bush, Stephanie Pearson, Lexi Kling, Matthew, Mateo. Yep. They did say Matthew, didn't they? I don't know. I mean, you could make it Matthew if you wanted to craft it that way. Yeah, it could be Matthew. Lexi King, Hannah with no last name, Dan Sharuk, Michelle Hogue, Tanya Roll, Jelly's daughter. I don't know. Kim Howard, Aaron Hunt, Jody Peitzmeyer, NWC, Morgan. Oh, I'm not doing it. Morgan Harris, Alyssa Paramo, Jacqueline Brothers, Kristen Mamorello, the Italian boobs, the Mamorellos. Nice. Patricia Browning, Carla with no last name, Patrick with no last name, Space Cowboy Lux, Alyssa with no last name, Brian Borgiale, Casey Pryor, Kimberly Klupax, Jay Forth. Four? J-V-I, James. That's a, oh, sixth. Sixth. The sixth J. So, like, instead of Johnny Five, they're Johnny Six. Johnny Six. Johnny Six, we found. Elizabeth with no last name, Jennifer Hoosen, Wendy Reinhardt, Aiden Johnson, Katie Straka, Rob O'Nealio, Missy Harness, Olivia Carter, and Caroline the Cute, James. Oh. Well, that's the- A new pirate. Yeah. Watch out. Cheryl Wenbin, Anthony Thivano, Anthony, Steve Edwards, Cindy Haas, Melanie Barga, Sugar Magnolia, Rachel Postone, Poston, Poston, Tasha and Brian Brown, Oh My God, I'm Stoned, I know that feeling, Terry with no last name, Di with no last name, Shanna A., Skyler Duclos, Did I say that already? I don't remember. Jonas, Jonas, Bernie von Lundstedt, Jonas, Bernie von Lundstedt, I don't know. Burnt. Oh, that's Burnt, not Bernie. That's a D and a T. That's what that is. Rowan James, Rowan, Amber Fisher, Kara Cameron, Brandon Collard, Cody with no last name, Larnie Hennessy, Angie Pennington, Stephanie Johnson, Don Hegelson, Helgeson, Miller, Sarah, oh boy, N-I-G-B-O-R. What is that, James? Not going to do it. No. You're not going to bait me. Brian with no last name, Nebor. I'm going to isolate that shit. Chris 77, Lori Sassay, Jerry Fletcher, Kiki with no last name, Todd Phillips, good for you, taking a break from directing the 97th Hangover, Therese Charbonneau, Ginger Schwab, Kirsa, Kirsa, Kirsa Lapinski. Shannon, Shannon, Shannon Stewart, Matt Aguilar, Aguilera, Mike from Dauphin, Dauphin, where's Dauphin? D-A-U-P-H-I-N, that's overseas, right? Europe. I'm guessing. C-K, good for you, Louie. Simon Chamberland, Chamberland, Jeannie, Nia with no last name, Andrea Massey, Suzanne Pinelli, Tanya with no last name, Lexi Trammell. Oh, look at that, some guy's name, Allen, that's it, Amanda with no last name, Trina C, Rebecca Seeger, Bob's kid, Amanda Barker, Travis's kid, Heather with no last name, Ty Saylor, Claire with no last name. You go Travis before Bob? What is it? You go Travis before Bob on Barker? I did. Wow. You said Bob Seeger, Bob, and then you said Travis. Bob it up, man, double Bobs. He's now dead, right? We didn't kill him again. Bob Barker, no, he is dead, I believe. Yeah, he is dead, yeah. And Travis Barker just might as well be. Nicole Schmelzer and all of our patrons, you guys are the best. What did you say? I said Travis Barker might as well be, but he's still alive. He died several deaths. Oh, yeah, yeah. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, thank you, thank you, and thank you again. You fucking wonderful. Marvelous. Fantastic bastards. Thank you. We're just, thank you for all that you do for us. Thanks for everything all the time. Thanks for hanging. Thanks for telling your friends. Thanks for posting. Thanks for being there with us. This would be weird if we did this alone and no one listened, so bizarre. So thank you for doing all of that. You want to follow us on social media or find out anything about anything, shut up and give me murder is the place to do that,.com, obviously, but shutupandgivememurder.com is where you do that. So keep doing that. Keep coming back week after week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye. Bye.