The "Ask Sean Anything" Mailbag. Plus: The Amazing Life of a Character Actor, with Patrick Fischler.

I'm Sean Fantasy and this is the big picture a conversation show about me. Later in this episode, I have a very special conversation with the actor Patrick Fischler. You may know him as the man who recounts his nightmare in David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. Over the Dharma initiatives dastardly fill from lost, or the embittered comedian Jimmy Barrett from Mad Men, or as one half of the smart couple who don't have kids in idiocracy, or the guy trapped in the elevator in speed, or, well, I can go on. Patrick is one of the most recognizable character actors in Hollywood and he appears in not one, not two, but four projects this summer, including the films, Teenage Sex and Death of Camp Meyasma, and the social reckoning. So I thought it'd be fun to talk to him about his life as a working actor. This is the kind of conversation I've wanted to have on this show for a very long time. It's a practical, thoughtful discussion of the art, commerce, and experience of life as a working actor. Stick around for it. Patrick has wonderful stories and is a great guy. But first, some movie news now that I'm back. Okay, so as I said, this is an episode about me. We're doing an Ask Me Anything Mailbag. Jack will read your questions. I will answer them sincerely with modesty and hopefully with some depth. Before we get to do that, we have to talk about Spider-Man brand new day. So I was very, very sure of myself that this movie was going to be very successful, but not absolutely beloved when we talked about it with Van and Amanda a couple of weeks ago. And now that I have returned from vacation, I am pleased to report that I was wrong. This movie is an absolute sensation, one of the biggest sensations in recent movie history. It has already made in 12 days 1.67 billion dollars. That is not a typo. I've not mistreated anything 1.67 billion dollars in 12 days. So obviously we're back. We've been back for a long time with movies. This has been a wonderful year in that respect. This is highly unusual, even for a film like this starring Spider-Man to do so well. And now it feels like potentially the sky is the limit. It's already earned $655 million in North America. It's made a billion dollars overseas already. The big question here in America is can it catch Spider-Man no way home, which went to 814, seems like a will. Can it catch Avengers Endgame at 858? Seems like a will. Can it catch the Force Awakens at $958 million? Probably not. That would be crazy. A movie has never crossed a billion dollars domestically. So we shall see. The big question now, though, beyond how much money can it make is why is this happening? There are obvious answers for why this is happening. Obviously, everybody loves Spider-Man. I love Spider-Man. Little kids love Spider-Man. There's a smart piece in the Wall Street Journal about how Spidey and his amazing friends is the gateway portal for three and four year olds like my daughter to get interested in and know Spidey. Spidey is very accessible for teenagers and preteens because he himself is a teenager in some of the storytelling, especially in the Tom Holland films. The movies are good. That's helpful. I have liked all four of the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies to some degree or another. I think most people feel that way. There is something true that has happened here, which is that Tom Holland and Zendaya are cresting in terms of their startup right now. And so both actors are going to be 30 years old this year. They're obviously married. They have spent the last 10 years, not just growing their fame, but doing so in intriguing ways. And Zendaya, perhaps more than Tom Holland, who started the drama earlier this year, who closed out her run on euphoria earlier this year, who's going to be appearing in Doon Part 3. Tom Holland, of course, was in the summer's other huge movie, The Odyssey. And so you've got these two figures who are entrenched in real life and in this story. Their relationship is critical to brand new day. And that's something that obviously a lot of people who have grown up with these movies since 2017 have felt emotionally invested in. I probably overlooked that when talking about how well the movie could do. But there's no doubt it's true. Zendaya was 19 years old when they filmed Spider-Man Homecoming, which is fascinating. One under-discussed point, I think, in this film's success is how it does feel a bit like a culmination. It's been five years, so there is that scarcity point that you're hearing from a lot of people. But it's more so that this is not quite an Avengers endgame level event, but it has been a decade-long period of storytelling for these specific films. Fighting has appeared in other MCU movies, but for the most part, his world is very self-contained with Zendaya, with Jacob Babylon who plays Ned, with a lot of the villains who don't often cross over into other stories. So there is this sort of like, we have arrived moment with this film, which makes some of its connectivity to the MCU at large sort of interesting to look at. And it means that Spider-Man, perhaps more so than any other IP, is in that upper tier, upper echelon of where things can go. It's basically Spider-Man Avengers, Batman to a lesser extent, an Avatar that have powered their way through the 2000s. Those are the films that the absolute ceiling. You could make a case for Star Wars, though it has dramatically tailed off in the Mandalorian and Grogu's underperformance brings the average way down on that movie. It's only been five years since the Spider-Man live action, but we also, obviously, every three or four years are getting a Spider-Verse film now, too. So it stays in the culture, but we don't feel overdrawn on the story at times. The other thing is just that the story's travel really well. This movie's going to end up making 1.5 billion, maybe more, overseas, and that's unbelievable. Now, I'm happy that everybody's going to the movies, and I'm happy that if people can't get into Spider-Man brand new day, maybe they'll throw themselves into the end of Oak Street or Teenage Sex and Death of Kamiasma or Tony or any of the other great movies that are out in August this month. But this is still the old way. The maximize your overseas profits, your utilize your IP to maximum effect. This is not a change in any way. This is not like obsession. This is not like a film like the Odyssey or Oppenheimer. This is an old playbook, and it still works. It works more rarely. I do want to address the people in all of my mentions who seem to think that I always have hated the MCU and comic book movies. That just means you only started listening to the show 12 months ago. I understand. That's okay. You should go back and listen to our episodes, even about many post-COVID films that were released, particularly Thunderbolts and Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. Two movies I liked, a whole heck of a lot. Before that, if you go back to Pre-COVID times, I'm very positive about many MCU movies. I have certainly been burnt out. Spider-Man, of course, is different. We've said Spider-Man is different for a long time now. This proves that there is no exhaustion on this story. I'm kind of curious to see what this means for Avengers Endgame. Does it mean that the ceiling is now higher on a movie like that, that it can be bigger than Endgame or bigger than this movie? Or does it mean that it will be more indicative of, you know, more of an artifact of storytelling? And I think there's obviously a lot of speculation that this movie with its Multiversal Storytelling and Dr. Doom's role will essentially dispense with many of the heroes who we've come to know over the last 15 years in the MCU and kickstart a new X-Men era, introduce a whole new level of hero. Obviously, the new Avengers are going to be a part of that and what role and responsibility of those characters have to the future of comic book stories we're going to find out. In the meantime, speaking of X-Men, some casting updates while I was out. So we know Sadie Sink is there as Jean Grey, sorry if that's a spoiler for Brand New Day, but I assume every single person who's listening to this right now has seen that film by now. There was a report that Samara Weaving, who was a guest on this show about a month and a half ago, was confirmed for Emma Frost, which is who is a canonical villain in the X-Men Storytelling. I'll just say Elite Casting. If you've seen Samara Weaving's work, you know she is definitely a white queen style figure. The leaks over the weekend indicated that Kit Connor, who folks may know from Heartstopper, who I really enjoyed in Alex Garland's warfare is likely to be Cyclops, seems fine. I think you need a nice, emotionally inert leader type to be Cyclops. I do think one of the most underrated parts of the Fox X-Men movies is James Martens casting as Cyclops. I think it was an excellent Cyclops. I relate to Cyclops in some ways as a Steinmeade leader here at The Ranger. Other figures who are tapped for potentially appearing in X-Men right now sounds like maybe Charles Mellton will play Beast. Kaley Spani has been rumored to play Rogue. They were stars, of course, in Beef Season 2. Indian Averetti has at least been raising her hand to play Mystique. I don't know how seriously to take that. She's doing a lot of press as she should in the aftermath of the success of Obsession. I saw a rumour about Jamie Lawson from Sinners playing Storm, and she's also rumored to be a part of Black Panther 3. I could see that making a lot of sense, a Roman Rho having a lot of connectivity between Black Panther and X-Men. OK, so who do I want to see? Nobody asked me this question, but I'm just going to riff. I gave it some thought last night. Obviously, I'm getting older. So the idea of me brainstorming about which 23-year-old actor should play comic book characters is kind of pathetic. I realize that. OK. I get it. It's a little sad. But it is something I did. First person who popped into my head is Connor's story from Heated Rivalry. She looks like a great angel to me, Warren Worthington III, who eventually becomes Archangel. I preferred Archangel to Angel, personally, I was in a super way back X-Men fan. I came in in the late 80s and early 90s. Your Borosov is Colossus. It's almost so obvious it should happen from Menorah who's going to be appearing in Art Official later this year, the Luca Guadagnino film. he's Russian, Colossus is Russian, he is bald, and Colossus is not bald, but he's also metallic, so maybe they could put a hairpiece on him and digitize him. Lana Condor plays Jubilee in X-Men Apocalypse, and I know that they're going to kill all those Fox X-Men characters, but they should probably still bring her back for Jubilee. I thought that was inspired casting. I think it was Lana Condor's first acting role. Lucas Bravo is a name that I have heard from Amanda on this show many times, and also from my wife, because he is the romantic lead in Emily and Paris. I couldn't think of any cage in actors, so I thought of French actors, and Lucas Bravo looks a lot like Gambit to me, so that's my pick there. This one I think is inspired. Gabriel Abel from the Fableman's and Snack Shack in Saturday Night as Bobby Drake, aka Iceman. What about Harry Melling as Nightcrawler, from Pillian, from the Harry Potter films? Okay, now I'm just going to try to manifest something. This isn't going to happen. I'm not even sure I wanted to happen, but what if Jesse Plemons said he would play Professor Charles Xavier? Would you be interested in that? Is that something that you think could work? Just picture him bald-headed, sitting in the chair in the danger room, instructing these young mutants, how to do things. I feel like there's something to that. Plemons has not really shown much interest in IP in the last 10 years, but I don't know. Xavier has such gravitas. It's going to be really hard to replace Patrick Stewart. He was kind of the ideal Xavier in many ways, but we'll see. I couldn't think of a single goddamn person for Wolverine. It's so difficult to cast an effective Wolverine, and I wonder if it's actually a better idea to go with a complete unknown for that part. Because obviously Hugh Jackman made him iconic and appeared in many, many, many films. As Wolverine, he seems to be unwilling to give up the Adamantium clause, but I couldn't think of a single person. The person I thought of for Magneto might be a little long in the tooth, but he has the gravitas we needed. It's Guy Pierce. Guy Pierce knows to knows with Jesse Plemons. There's an age difference, obviously. But Guy Pierce is a youthful 58, in my opinion. Okay, those are my ideas. Are they good? Maybe not, but they're the best I could come up with last night. All right, prime time. I'm not referring to the hours between 7 and 11 pm on network television. When I was a kid, I'm referring to the new film from Lance Oppenheim. If you've been listening to this show for the last few years, you know the affection I have for Lance Oppenheim's work. He was a guest on the show a few years ago, talking about his documentary Renfair. He's made a number of documentaries over the years, including Spurmworld that I recommend people check out because his debut feature film Primetime had his trailer released while I was on vacation. It's good. It's good. For one notable reason, which is that we have Robert Pattinson right in that amazing sweet spot with an actor who has a tremendous amount of skill is very famous and can make things happen and clearly has good taste. So the film is obviously a portrait of Chris Hanson, the date line and ketchup to catch a predator host. I spoke a bit about David Osits' documentary. They came out last year predators. This film seems like it's very much in communion with that documentary and it looks like an angsty chaotic nightmare of a movie. I've saw a lot of people compare it to Nightcrawler, the Jake Jell-in-Hall film. I think there's a lot of accuracy to that. Haven't seen the movie yet. It comes out September 25th. Amanda will be seeing it at Venice. I'm hopeful that the film will show up at the Telluride Film Festival. It's just very exciting to see someone like Pattinson using his powers for good. This is really it. Great actors who have great taste, who are willing to do parts like this. It made me think a bit of cruise and magnolia. This is the kind of thing we want to see from folks in this industry with this kind of leverage. I'm very excited for that film. I'm also very excited for the world to see Paper Tiger, which released a teaser this morning. This is James Gray's new movie, which Amanda and I talked about at Cannes. It stars Adam Driver and Miles Tellur and Scarlett Johansson and it's a James Gray movie. It's a crime thriller set in the 1970s about two brothers who find themselves in some real trouble. I won't say more than that. It is deeply connected to all of Gray's films. It is him very much in his comfort zone and it's just fantastic. It comes out in November. I'm looking forward to talking about it on the show. I'm almost certain James will be back. He's been one of the two or three best guests in the history of this show. If you only did just start listening to the show, I would recommend you go back and listen to his episodes because he is actually talking to him for the first time about the lost city of Z. I think, and this will come up during our mailbag, helped me realize what I could do in talking to filmmakers on the show because of how open and airy-dite and I think willing to go a little deeper that James was when we talked about that film, his life, his career, the way he's perceived as an artist and how he thinks of himself. Hopefully, we'll have another good conversation come November. Okay, a couple of quick things. Bunch of movies were reportedly pushed back, according to variety today. Bunch of movies that we've been talking about a lot on the show over the last six or seven months. That includes Here Comes the Flood, the Denzel Pattinson movie from Netflix. Sounds like that's a 2027 movie. The Riders, which is a Brad Pitt movie from A24 that is getting pushed to 2027. Cry to Heaven, the Tom Ford film, which was surprisingly absent from the Venice Film Festival lineup, is also still without a distributor and likely going to 27. And then Jack of Spades, which I have in the auction, which was very high on my most anticipated movies of the year list, which comes from Joel Cohen, his second solo directorial film, starring starring Joshua Conner. And that film is also without a distributor. Hopefully, it'll be getting one soon and it'll crop up. But it sounds like it's a 2027 movie. Things are starting to come into focus. You know, LeBola Negra's been dated. We just had ink dated earlier today by Netflix. Seems like all the can films have their release dates. We're going to see Fjord. We're going to see once upon a time in Harlem. We're going to see Minotaur. We're going to see a lot of the movies that you heard us talk about in May. And Amanda and I will have deep, long conversations about them. I'm looking forward to it. I'm also very happy to be back. I had a nice vacation. I went to Long Island in New York City, or I'm from, I visited my hometown movie theater, my hometown rep house, the cinema art center. I introduced a movie there and greeted some folks. You know, I give Long Island a hard time, but it felt good to be home for a change. That might also be because my daughter is five and she's so she can travel well now. So I'm looking forward to spending more time there in the future. Okay. I think we can mail back. Jack, what's up? What did I miss? All right. Our first question comes from Alex. These questions were very fun doing a ask Sean anything. Emphasis on the anything was enjoyable. So this first question comes from Alex. What is your single best Nathan for you? Ask idea to get more butts in seats in the cinema. Just give shit away. I just tell people that there's free hot dogs at every movie. You know what people love free shit? Free shit is cheap. This is not even that Nathan for you ask. We could make the case that what we need to really do is is build a you know a massive spaceship that will take people away because that's what movies are you know and try to trick them into thinking that you're going on a journey. But I think movie theaters forget like I'll give you an example. My wife brought home the Odyssey poster from the screening of the Odyssey on the first day of release and she showed it to my daughter. My daughter was like what is that? And now she's all interested in the Odyssey. And my wife was like should we put this Odyssey poster up in our house? We're not going to do that. I know as much of a movie freak as I am that seems a little bit silly. But there's something about the giveaway. Think about like the way that baseball stadiums do this. You know I know yesterday there was a my chemical romance situation at city field in New York and they gave away Gerard way Mr. Met Bobblehead dolls. She does not hard you know. Just treat people like the lemmings that they are and gratify them. Stop trying to squeeze every single dollar out of the experience and just give us some free stuff. Okay that's that I mean Jack I don't know what I think that's a perfect example. I also like how you called it the my chemical romance situation. Not a concert situation. I'm not an MCR person. I'm just going to say that. I am. I have a Bobby Wagner. I was going to say Christopher Ryan as well. Yeah. Bobby and NCR huge MCR. I'm not I'm not a post to my chemical romance. I have nothing against them. I don't dislike them. Just never been my back. That's all I'm going to say. The other thing is like we don't actually have to try to get people back in a movie theaters. They know. Like people know now that one of the great things about going home was that every single person in my extended family who I spent time with over the week wanted to talk to me about what they thought about the Odyssey. Which was great. They had all seen the Odyssey. You know my my 73-year-old father and his wife had seen the Odyssey my 13-year-old niece had seen the Odyssey like everyone had went to go see that movie and I think if I went back two weeks later I think most of them would have seen Spider-Man Brad New Day not my dad but most of the other people that I was with would have gone to see that movie as well. So that that spirit of summer blockbuster that we kind of communed with for 40 years in this country it does feel like it's back this summer. I don't know if it's a permanent condition but it does feel like it's back. So I'm actually less worried about this whole trying to get people back in movie theaters thing than I have been ever since COVID and you know the numbers bear that out pretty significantly. - What's next? - Next question comes from Alexandra. You're great at asking questions. Can you talk about the research you do before interviewing guests and how you decide what to ask? I love this question. - Thanks, Alexandra. That is a nice question. And I do put a lot of time and thought into it. So I appreciate you saying so. I do do a lot of research and I'll tell you what the research is, but I don't think that the research is the reason why the conversations are fruitful. The research that I do is obvious. I want to tend to re-watch a lot of films. If you track me on letterbox, you can follow. And you can get a sense of when I'm getting ready for something. I obviously, if it's a filmmaker with a long and storied career, I tend to seek out the collections of interview books that they've done. I tend to go back through a lot of movie magazine history and look at the questions. You can imagine for the Steven Spielberg conversations I had in the spring, I went back and read a ton. I read a biography, I read several interviews with him over the years. For a couple of reasons, one, I think asking questions is not only about asking the questions that they want to be asked. It's also not about only asking questions that you're curious about. It's about finding a meeting point between where the guest wants to go and where you want to take a conversation. So you have to make them comfortable in the environment, I think, and show them in concise ways that you are not just conversant in their work, but that you're deeply engaged in their work. So the way that I try to do that is I try to figure out what are either the thematic or structural or even just kind of linear notes of their career that I have noticed. Sometimes it's coincidences, sometimes it's very purposeful choices that a filmmaker makes to show patterns to them. Sometimes they respond to them, sometimes they don't. I learned this from listening to Elvis Mitchell, who hosts KCRW's The Treatment, and was a film critic at The New York Times among other places, and is wonderful at this work. And I love his show, and I think he's excellent in having conversations like the ones I've tried to have. And those patterns tend to show the person that you're sitting with that you really care about what it is that they do. And that can only come from reading a lot about them and watching their work closely. But the other thing that I'll say is the most important thing I think to have with conversations with artists is follow up questions. So when they say something, you're not rifling through your list of questions, making sure you get to every single beat that you've created for yourself. It's when you hear them say something that fascinates you, being willing to go down that tributary with them. That's the thing that I think is most important. And maybe you'll hear me do it with Patrick Fishlor, because I prepared a lot to talk to Patrick on this episode. And he has such a vast career. He's got a almost 40-year career at this point as an actor. But I didn't get to everything I wanted to. For example, I didn't get to talk about under the silver lake with him, the David Robert Mitchell movie that I love. And he's used in that movie in a very similar way to the way that he's used in teenage sex and death at Camp Measima. And as an actor, he's become this kind of indicative figure of a certain kind of a movie that a filmmaker is trying to make. And I could have talked to him about that movie, but we went down other paths, and I never quite got to it. But it was okay, because we got to things that I didn't know were going to be great. So just being reactive and intuitive and I'm listening. I really think listening is obviously, it seems obvious, but it is the most important thing, especially in this era where you watch a lot of junket interviews on social media, and you see that there's like, somebody's been sat down for five to 10 minutes at a time, and the journalist, and I have empathy for them, because I've been in this situation in the earlier parts of my career, where they just have to kind of plow through the three or four gimmicky questions that they know will get them hit on social media. I have made a sincere, concerted effort on the show to make it more about slightly more long form conversations, never less than 30 minutes. I try to have as many of them in person as I possibly can, because they're just better, they're just different. And also because I'm putting the time in and they're taking the time to come and sit with me. And so I want it to be worth it for everybody involved. So I appreciate the question very much. And it's a great timing on the question, 'cause there's a great guest on the show this month with really good conversations, and like a wide variety of experiences. So, and the other thing too is, I sometimes will have a great conversation with a guest, and then that guest will become a part of the firmament of the show. So like Alex Ross Perry as somebody who just came in to talk about his movie Golden Exits, and we hit it off, and we had a lot in common. We had similar taste in things, and he's become a huge part of the show, and a genuine friend of mine. And I love that. I love that that can happen. Ben David Grubinsky was here earlier this year, and he's gonna come back later this month and talk with us about something that I'm excited to share. So, it's one of those things where, if you give people sincerity and time, they usually will repay you if you're in the right atmosphere. Okay, what's the next question? - Next question comes from Greg. With the current turning of public opinion against AI and data centers, I feel that Eddington was even more ahead of its time than previously recognized. What are some other movies that you feel were ahead of their time and deserve a rewatch and more attention? Just gotta say, it's really nice basically seeing the Babylon hive happen again with Eddington hive. Every day, there's another person on x.com, the everything app going, did we look past Eddington? - It's true. - Yes, you fucking did, motherfucker. - Yeah. Well, as per the Spider-Man brand new day, I know it, like I'm not always right, but I knew I was gonna be right about this one in the minute I saw the movie. Also Ariaster, another person who I've had on the show several times and have gotten to know a little bit. And I feel a kinship with his storytelling, so maybe I have to check myself on this sort of thing, but Eddington just felt tremendously, transparently, clearly right about how we are with each other to each other and about the world. And so I'm happy that people are coming around to it. It's also just very, very, very funny. And it's hard to be funny about the things that it's funny about, but it is. And so, yeah, I'm thrilled about that. I thought of a couple of movies that I think sort of saw the future or oppression or were a little bit overlooked upon their release or maybe need a revival. The one that I think needs a revival and that is not really available in too many forms, like there's not a fancy Blu-ray release, for example, is Bob Roberts, which is a 1992 political satire comedy directed by Tim Robbins, about a millionaire Republican presidential candidate. And who could that possibly have something in common with I don't know? The movie is really funny because Bob Roberts, the character that Robins himself plays, is sort of like a folk singer, but he's transforming folk ballads and popular contemporary music into Republican sloganering. And it's a very amusing movie, but it's mostly a movie about the kind of messaging, branding and packaging of political candidates and the way in which provocation is used strategically, the way in which the sort of like empty suit persona is leveraged very clearly by most politicians. And Tim Robbins, of course, is a huge lefty and very politically active. And he's portraying somebody who's all the way on the other side of his politics in an effort to draw attention to it. The movie, I think, was a Miramax film. And I think it's basically been kind of buried in part because of maybe some of Robbins' opinions. I'm not totally sure of the origins there, but it's a movie that if you look at our contemporary political landscape, it sees the future, I think, in a way that is very similar to Eddington. And it probably seemed like it was a little bit broad and over the top at the time that it was released. And now it seems maybe a little mild relative to the world that we live in. Another movie I thought about was Karn Kusama's Jennifer's body. And there's two things happening in that movie that feel very contemporary to me. One, it's a very kind of amusingly and intensely scary slash funny combo that recalls obsession. And it's not quite at that kind of demonic chaos point that obsession gets to. It is a little bit more arch because it's a Diablo Cody script, but it does feel like it's moving in a similar direction to that movie. And then the other thing is it's a very comfortably queer story without the trappings of a lot of traditional queer storytelling. And I think that if you look at something like Teenage Sex and Death and the way that it's kind of responding to the history of Slasher films and we'll talk about that more with Adam Namin later this week, this movie is kind of a link in that chain. And it's not surprising that it's had like a big cult resurgence in the last 10 years and is being rightly recognized. And Amanda Sifred and Megan Fox are so terrific in that movie out of Brody is so funny in that movie. But that's one that feels like just tonally, it was way ahead of the curve and trying to replicate something that was happening in the 80s. It was hard to replicate at that time, but now feels more comfortable. So I'll point people to that. I just really watched Ghost in the Shell. The Japanese anime film from 1995 and I just feel like that movie sees everything style wise. And it's been noted over the years how most science fiction storytelling seems to be riffing on at these days in terms of the sleekness, the sort of robot tech that you find in it, that kind of cutting edge surveillance style that it utilizes. And it's kind of in the aftermath of the Cyberpunk moment, but it also feels like it's predicting things like the Matrix that are coming very shortly thereafter. If you haven't seen Ghost in the Shell, I couldn't recommend a movie more. This seems kind of obvious, but psycho, which at the time there were not very many movies about mass killers and the serial killer psychosis and attempting to psychoanalyze that, those figures in any way and about repression in that way. And psychos, of course, one of the most historic movies ever made, we've talked about it many times on the show over the years, might be fun to do. Like a proper psycho. Actually, when I get questions about what would be the best old school rewatchable so we could do, we've joked about movies like Casa Blanca in the past or the Wizard of Oz. Psychos kind of an obvious one. I actually think that would be a great episode if anyone from the rewatchables universe wanted to do it because it does feel still so modern in the way that it tells its story. And kind of pinned to that, I thought of they live a bit, the John Carpenter film from the 1980s about Obeyance in society. And then the fifth one is Speed Racer. And people might have heard Daniel Goldhaber, the director of Faces of Death, stomping for it on the show earlier this year. The 4K was released this year when back in the theaters, if you were lucky enough to see the movie again in theaters, you know what a sensation it was. At the time when Speed Racer was released, I must admit, I did not get it. It's not that I disliked it. I don't think I truly saw the vision, though, that everyone sees. And I have really been swayed over the last five or 10 years. As it has become more of a cult object, and I look at the incredible vision that the Wachowski's had for that movie, I didn't watch the Speed Racer cartoon as a kid, and so I thought maybe it was a little bit outside of my realm of interest, but it's such a propulsive electric colorful movie that it feels like it consumes everything around you. Like you can't, in a time of distraction, you can't be distracted watching a movie like Speed Racer because there's so much happening in the frame at any given time. So that movie I think also, like I said, it was way ahead of my time. Like it was way ahead of time for me because I didn't see the way. I think I was looking for something a little different from the Wachowski's after the Matrix trilogy and kind of got wrong-footed by it. And now I go back and look at it. And maybe the same will happen for me for Cloud Atlas or for Jupiter sending movies that I never really have totally clicked in with, but there's a lot to admire about them, but there seems to be something silly and if it's strange about them at times, but that was sort of how I felt about Speed Racer. The Wachowski's are really do an episode on this show 'cause their legacy is so incredible. And I just heard Lana on the business, the KCRW podcast with Chemasters last week. And there's just an amazing well spring of stuff going on there. So maybe we'll think about about a Wachowski's episode in 2027. Okay, Jack, what's coming next? - This next question really gets to the ask Sean anything portion of the mailbag comes from Simon. How do I know when I find someone that I love and want to pursue as a partner? When did you know you were in love with your wife? How did you know you wanted to spend the rest of your life with her? Was it a realization one day or did it require a lot of work to get to where you guys are? Simon! - Wow, Simon. In the earlier in this episode, I thought the names of actors I think should appear as X-Men characters in a movie that's not even on the calendar yet. And this guy's asking me about how I fell in love with my wife. One of the amazing show we've created. Well, I've been with my wife more or less since 1999. So I'm not the most experienced when it comes to playing the field. And so it's an interesting question to ask me. I think that, but I like the way that he framed it. 'Cause it's not about falling in love. It's about being in love. Falling in love I think is relatively easy because you know when you connect with someone, you know when you have things in common with them, you know when you're on their emotional wavelength, you know when you have fun together? It seems obvious, but having fun together, I think is the most important thing. Eileen and I, my wife, we met when we were very young, probably met when we were in sixth grade, but we were not even really friends for a number of years all the way up until 11th grade. And then in 11th grade, we had health class together. I don't know if they still teach health class, but they do, Jack. - They did for me, okay. - I just said a thing like I don't know if they still teach, which just means I'm officially in my mid 40s. So health class, Eileen sat in the front row and I was seated behind her. And I would say neither of us were terribly interested in the class, but we talked. It was the first class in the morning, it was first period. And we both, let's say you get to school five minutes early, we talked nonstop for five minutes. We had a connective tissue because we had a mutual friend or friend Becky who sat next to Eileen in the class and I sat behind both of them and they would both turn around and talk to me. And then I would talk to Eileen, make jokes, attempt to charm her throughout class. And then we had AP American history, immediately after that together. And same thing, she sat in front of me. No, she sat beside me. And she famously cheated off me on the test. I'm just gonna throw that out there. I'm sorry Eileen, you're going under the bus. Not to cheat, Eileen was an excellent student and yet for some reason she cheated. And the question was about the Enola Gay, which I believe was the plane that, I can't remember what bomb the Enola Gay dropped, but it was a significant plane in military history. I did very well in the American history, AP by the way. And Eileen looked at my paper and tried to copy my answer on this quiz and class and she wrote down Irwin Gray. And that is not Enola Gay. She just couldn't read my chicken scratch handwriting. And that was the funniest thing in the world to me at the time. And I remember that story vividly to this day. And we weren't dating when all this was happening, when we were getting to know each other in 11th grade, but I just remember laughing a lot with her. And really appreciating that she got my sense of humor, which is sometimes welcome and sometimes not. And so, and we basically kind of danced around the idea of dating all the way up until the first day of our senior year of high school. And she's the one who stepped to me. It was just like, let's get on with this big romance as James Khan says in Thief quite memorably. And we did and we haven't looked back since. And I don't think we analyzed it a lot. We were two people who were pretty sure we were going to be together for a very long time. We clicked into place. We had some similar experiences and some different experiences. I was a little bit more tentative about marriage, given my parents' divorce. I was not a person who wanted to have kids. I was very driven in my career and very focused on things I felt I wanted to accomplish. She was, I think, I feel like the work always came to her very easily. And she was not as career-motivated even though she's very successful. But we were very in step and in tune. And we like to do the same things together and spend a lot of time together. I'm sharing all of this with you on this podcast because if you have to think a lot about it, if you have to spend a lot of time intellectualizing it, I don't think you're in love probably. But if it feels like it is flowing and your life is sort of falling in together, then you are in love. The falling in love part is like, you're going to be physically attracted to a person. Then you're going to start talking to them and you're going to get much more attracted to them if you like talking to them. And then you're off to the races. I think, but I haven't really done this in 27 years. So don't take me at my word. Maybe somebody can ask Amanda when she comes back. She took a little bit more time to find her partner. So she might have a little bit more insight than I do. Okay, interesting question. Thank you, Simon. I would love to know how old Simon is. Right back at me, Simon. The next question comes from Ryan. I started a movie club with friends and family where we each pick a movie and meet every few weeks to discuss. We started picking movies from each decade starting with the 1940s and we're currently in the 1980s. Can you lend me in the listeners some lesser known criminally underrated 80s movies that we should check out for our movie club? You know, I love a family movie club. That's just wonderful. Yeah, I can talk about some 80s movies. I'm not the biggest 80s fan, although I have caught up with a lot of blind spots over the last 10 years. And I've somewhat shifted my opinion on the 80s as a film decade. I do think a lot of it is really related to when you were growing up. And the 90s is really more my period. But just a couple of quick ones for you. Sleezy, fun movie. Maybe don't watch this through their parents, but I really like John Frankenheimer's 52 pickup starring Roy Scheider and Anne Margaret, which features an incredible John Glover performance. It's just like a nasty piece of trash that I love. If you're looking for some anxious, saffety style energy, I recommend the Boost, which is a Harold Becker movie about a guy who moves with his wife from New York to California to try to level up in his career. It stars James Woods in an electrifying performance. A movie that really surprised me that I'd never seen before. If you're looking for self-referential horror, try Fade to Black, a movie about a movie obsessed teenager who becomes a killer and is inspired by the movies to execute his kills. If you're looking for some army-getting fun when it feels like everything is burning around us, try Miracle Mile, one of the great Los Angeles movies starring Anthony Edwards. Slick Thriller, I just watched the package late last year, the Gene Hackman movie, which I think will come up when we do our Gene Hackman Hall of Fame later this fall. I will be doing it with Tracy Letz. I've been doing a lot of able for our prep for an episode in one movie that I haven't seen in a really long time and I just revisited is. China girl, which is sort of his version of West Side Story set a sort of a romance between an Italian American kid and a Chinese girl, Chinese American girl living in downtown New York. That is just absolutely gorgeous and beautiful look at and beautifully told. And then sci-fi comedy, I think some, a lot of people know this movie, it just got a beautiful 4K from Arrow, but interspace, Joe Dante's comedy about, I guess a man who has to go inside of another man, be shrunk down in the meantime, starring Martin Shorten Dennis Quaid, that is great and is also a very fun movie that my wife loves. So those are my 80s picks. There's a lot more there. I'm just trying to give you some recent favorites. What's next, Jack? Next question comes from Nick. Who are the most reliable chemistry alchemists in Hollywood history? i.e. which actor reliably produces it across many different partners, genres, and directors? It came to mind when reflecting on Gosling's career. Just next level with Rachel McAdden, Adams, Emma Stone, etc. You'd believe he'd married each of them. Good question. Carrie Grant, number one for me. There's Nari at performance where you feel like he's not in the relationship that he's in. And I think he's really well known for playing. He's kind of fast-talking, prat falling, debonair, screwball comedy figures, but an Alfred Hitchcock movie I love is Suspicion where he plays a man who may or may not be plotting to kill his wife. And he is dynamite in that movie. And has, he has great chemistry with all of his opposite numbers. Jack Nicholson? Jack Nicholson could have chemistry with a telephone pole. He is the most locked-in actor I think of all time. And I find him to be so fun opposite women that he obviously has a connection to. I just discovered, you know, Iron Weed for the Meryl Streep Hall of Fame. I've never seen that movie before. And their chemistry is incredible in that film. But yeah, he is, I mean, the Witches of Eastwick. Opposite all three of those women is amazing. You know, we talked about Reds and the way that he connects with Diane Keaton and that one critical sequence as he's playing Eugene O'Neill. So he's somebody who's very obvious to me. I'm trying to think of a contemporary person. Can I give a shout? Please. I just saw Tony yesterday and I would shout Antonio Banderis, not strictly from like a romantic perspective. But when I walked out of the movie and I was talking to my girlfriend, I was like, he is such a force multiplier and that he brings the best out of all of his scene partners. I completely agree with that, Jack. It's a great shout. He's one of the absolute highlights of Tony. We'll talk about him a bunch. I had, I had Antonio on the show for Pain in Glory, the Home of Dove our film. And he's been one of my favorite actors. He might have been one of the very first solo actor conversations I ever had on the podcast because I like him so much. And I'll tell you what, I think he and I had chemistry. We were clicking that day. And he was very humble, very humble actor. But Tony is a real, like, he doesn't have an Oscar and he should have an Oscar and we should just like start pushing that. He is the absolute heart core of Tony. And I agree with you. And he's like great opposite sound of Hayek and Desperado, but he's also great, great opposite Sylvester Stallone and Assassins. I mean, he can really do it all. Okay, next question. Really fun one up here. This one comes from Kyle. I recently saw a tweet going around claiming that your quote to horny. Would you agree or are you the right amount of horny for context that tweet exactly says, I love Sean fantasy, but sometimes he's too horny on the big picture. I think that's a misrepresentation. I'm not saying I'm not too horny, but on the big picture, I think me noting my appreciation for certain actresses, you know, I have my, I have my faves, right, Anne Hathaway, Jessica Chastain, there's others there. That is not too horny. It's like looking at a great work of art and saying, God, there's such depth and specialness here. We should acknowledge it every time we see it. If you go to the Lou, if you've been to the Lou five times, you don't not look at the Mona Lisa. You look at the Mona Lisa. It's there. It's a classical work of art that's meant to be appreciated over and over again, and it's right to say so. Is that too horny? No. That doesn't mean I'm not horny, but it doesn't mean I'm too horny. And the other thing I'll say is one, you know, elder millennial repressed Irish Catholic, like, I'm doing the best I can. There are times when I feel like, I shouldn't say anything, and then there are other times when I feel like I should only say what I'm really thinking. And this is the paradox of being a podcaster. You want to be honest, you want to be yourself, but you're also performing, but you're also protecting yourself, but you also want to create avenues of nobility. I'm doing my best. If I cross the line sometimes, it's only out of appreciation and respect. I'm not trying to objectify anybody, and I won't. A man, on the other hand, is too horny for the big picture. Next question. Getting us back on track with a question from Lucas, not our Lucas. There were lots of conversations around Nolan's strengths and weaknesses as a filmmaker after the release of the Odyssey. I saw some people saying that others could have made a better movie if they were able to get a $250 million budget, which makes me wonder, who are the $250 million dollar directors? The people that a studio would give that much money with no questions asked. And in addition, who are your $250 million folks? The people that you would like to see given that much money through a studio might not take that same chance with them. I think the question is a faulty premise because there are no $250 million dollar no questions asked directors. The idea that Christopher Nolan did not have to sell Universal on his idea is wrong. It doesn't mean that Universal is desperate to keep Christopher Nolan and their stable. Of course they are. He is the most proven commodity in filmmaking right now. But nobody writes a $250 million dollar check to a no tour and says, have fun. That's just not how it works. There's a huge process that goes into these movies getting made. So I'm not sure I totally agree with that idea. I do think that there's obviously a few people who have a tremendous amount of leeway when they want to make a film. Obviously Nolan is on that list, didn't even know if I think it's climbing the ladder on that list. James Cameron has been at the top of the food chain for a very long time. But even then, I don't know if Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, a lot of the masters that we've entered on the show, none of those people really have $250 million dollar blank checks. Does Greta Gerwig have a $250 million dollar blank check? Not really. She's adapting IP for Netflix, so she's making a very big movie. But I don't really think that that exists. I don't think that there's a person. I don't think Ryan Cootler could get a $250 million dollar original movie made right now, unless the material was exciting enough for the people who are funding it. So to me, there's a vast difference between my desire to see artists empowered and the way that we talk about people getting a chance to tell original stories or fresh stories and the fact that telling them at scale is really what matters. And part of what makes the Odyssey so special is those boats are out at sea. That movie looks like it was incredibly difficult to make, incredibly challenging. And it was so challenging in part because it was so expansive and expansive often means expensive. But I don't really think there's anybody who gets to do that. You know, I would love it if somebody gave Steven Spielberg $250 million dollars and he got to do whatever the hell he wanted. And he could be the most experimental version of himself while also scaling every massive building in the world and traveling to the pyramids and to Machu Picchu and doing all kinds of crazy things. But that's not realistic like this. It is a commercial art form. And this kind of relates to a question that we'll get later. But the one of the reasons why I constantly talk about box office and industry trends and where things are going and what power people have on the show. One, obviously it's fun and it creates some dynamic structures for the discussion. But two, it is a commercial art form. It is not painting or poetry. It is meant to be, it is the creation of a work of art that is meant to go out into the marketplace and consumed. So you have to see it from that perspective to understand it. And as much as we want to say, like, well, that guy should be able to do whatever he wants. Greta Guru made Barbie. She should do whatever she wants. Like, it's pretty much never going to work that way. And it's good to understand it. That's not not going to be the case anytime soon. Okay, what's next? Next question comes from Mallory. I really like this one. I'm 17 years old just starting my senior year of high school and trying to figure out what to do after I graduate. I love to watch and write about movies and I'm considering getting a journalism or film degree and going into entertainment journalism or academia. You have what would basically be my dream job. And I really admire the way you discuss movies on the podcast and in your writing. I wanted to ask if you had any advice on how to get better at thinking, talking and writing about film. This is also a great question because of the conversation you had with Patrick. Oh, giving advice to younger people. So this is a great one, Mallory. I find this very hard answer now. And years ago, I would do lots and lots of calls with college students who would reach out and ask about this. And I always tried to make time for people because people made time for me when I was really young. In New York, I would reach out to people. I told the story about meeting Chris Ryan. But like, there were a lot of people who was writing. I really liked and I would reach out to them. Some of them made time for me and chatted with me and gave me some insights into their journey. And you know, things are much harder than they were before. I think there's a big difference between like, how do I make a career out of this and how do I get better at it. thinking, talking, and writing about it. If you just want to think, talk, and write better, you just have to do those things all the time. And you have to read a lot. I would just go out and buy the five polling kale collections. I would go out and buy the five key ebert books. You know, just like real starter kit kind of things. You know, I have vivid memories of going on road trips with my parents, my two siblings in the backseat, and I'm sitting at the window on the right side behind my mom, and pouring over the polling kale collections. You know, like 5,000, one nights at the movies. And I would get them out of the library. And my parents thought I was an alien. And it probably was like kind of an alien that we were going to like a beach vacation, and I just wanted to be inside and reading about movies, which will be no surprise to you if you see me now, given how pale I am. But I think that was all like work towards getting to this place where I got super lucky to get the opportunity to do this, but all that reading and then making friends who were really into movies and spending all my time talking about movies with my friends and music and other forms of culture books that I really cared about. But I talked a lot, I do talk, still talk a lot about movies all the time, and I'm constantly thinking about them. And so it's just like, it's a life's practice. And if I didn't have this incredible job, I'd still be doing that. And when I was doing a not this job, as recently as nine years ago, I was doing that. I think one of the reasons why I'm doing the show right now is because Bill Simmons was sick of hearing me talk about movies all the time. So I would just encourage you to kind of throw yourself into it as much as you can in your free time. And some people, if you're really lucky, you get to make your hobby your career. And that is something that I don't even really felt I knew I could do and has slowly snapped into place over time, but journalism degree is a tricky one. I'll say, as someone with a journalism degree, I had a good college experience. I learned a lot at my college. I learned most of it from doing it. I learned most of it from working for the school newspaper, writing for local newspapers, working for news day in my summers off, getting internships at magazines. That was where I really learned to do the work. The classroom stuff, not as much. I wish I had spent more time in film class. I wish I had spent more time studying film theory and film technique, because I had to do all that work as a catch up when I got older. And I'm still doing it. I'm doing it to this day. I'm still trying to learn as much as I can without kind of burning out my passion and enthusiasm for it. So I would say, think critically about what kind of degree you think you need to go forward. What's next? Next question comes from Jackson. Has it sunk in that you are considered one of the major founders of quote, it's so over, we're so back. And how much it has become a ubiquitous saying in modern lexicon, I use some variation of it all the time. And it's also used constantly on the internet see the Alamo draft has re-opening or acquiring this in a Ramadan, excuse me. Beyond your daughter, would you consider impacting the English language your greatest career achievement? Beyond your daughter. No, I would not consider that my greatest achievement. I also don't even really know how responsible I am for it. I've been asked this many times. I was interviewed by the New York Times about this a couple of years ago, where they said I was one of the proprietors of the phrase, I don't know. I definitely didn't invent it. And I do think it was very much a component of what it felt like in COVID as a hardcore movie fan. Someone talking about movies every day because it did feel dramatic. And I was dramatic about how things were going. And that feels like a long time ago, given how things are now. But catchphrases are important. I have no shame about having a catchphrase. It's nice to have something that people can relate to and remember you by. And if this is something that people relate to me and remember me by, I'm not opposed to it. I do think it would be really funny if there was a large banner over my coffin that said it's so over at my funeral. Just throwing that out there for everybody if they're interested in that. What's next? Next question comes from Steve and Charlotte. Criterion calls you and says you can do a commentary for any movie you want with any guest you choose. What movie in which guest do you pick? - Love this question. I just did another commentary with Tracy Letz and I had a great time and I really like doing those with him because he's so smart and so informed and we're similar in some ways, but he sees things from a different angle in ways that not just like educates me but really entertains me. And so I would do, I would do commentaries with him until the day I die. If you work at a Blu-ray 4K distribution space that is looking for commentaries with folks, give us a shout 'cause we're interested in doing that and I think we've really enjoyed doing it together. But the easy answer for me with this is the third man with Orson Welles. I never met Orson Welles, he died well before I was in the movie game but there's probably not a single person I like listening to talk more when I'm bored and I don't have a movie in my queue. I will sometimes just go to YouTube and just Google Orson Welles interviews and talk show appearances and just listen to him cook for a while. And the third man's my favorite movie and he's obviously one of the stars of that film and it would be amazing to just sit with him for a couple hours and hear him talk about his experience making that movie and the craft of acting and filmmaking. He didn't direct the movie but you can see that he would see what is so special about the filmmaking in that story. So that's what I would really love to do. I'm such a fan of those early Peter Bogdanovitch books, who the devil made it and who the devil's in it and a couple of others. There's a now I think a full, I think there's a full, my lunches with Orson Peter Bogdanovitch book as well that is just his conversations with Welles over the years. And Bogdanovitch is such an interesting cat, obviously a great director but he spent the first 5, 10 years of his career effectively transforming his movie psychosis fandom into a sort of hobbyist career as well where he would write these index cards out and do these kind of like many reviews of movies just for himself when he was a kid and a teenager. And then he transformed that into kind of a journalism career which allowed him to meet a lot of the iconic film directors of the 30s and 40s, some of whom he'd be a friended and he would have these long conversations with them and these deep relationships with them and he learned a lot from them and he applied some of those techniques to the films that he made but he and Welles had a really fascinating relationship and I just wish I could have been in the room for some of those conversations, let alone watching a movie with them and talking about it while it was happening. So there's my answer to that question. Okay, what's next? - Next question comes from Adam. Similar to CR's stocking guys like Logan Marshall, Green and Luke Wilson, I was wondering who you have stocking and no one else seems to be buying. - It's interesting that no one else seems to be buying thing 'cause I don't know, I don't really think you can have that anymore, like in the era of stand culture everyone's got a shooter, everyone's got someone who they claim, so it's a little tricky to be like, well, no one loves Patrick Fischler, so I had him on the podcast, like we put that picture of me and him up on Instagram today and people were just like, hell yeah, that guy's amazing. So everyone knows who everyone is now, so it's a lot harder to achieve that. Part of what's really funny with CR is that he loves Logan Marshall Green but he also loves Tom Hardy and Logan Marshall Green is constantly mistaken for Tom Hardy and he's even talked about this in interviews now, and so what that means is really that CR has a type, there's a certain kind of a man, there's a masculine man, a burnthal type, a Luke Wilson type, that Chris is very fond of. So the question could have been, do you have a type? And I probably do, but I didn't give that too much thought. So I just thought of a couple of people who were like earlier in their careers, who I think I'm sure have lots of fans and lots of supporters, but who I am very fond of. The first one is Julia Careppi, who is the star of Redrooms, which we have talked about a bunch on this show, a movie that came out a couple of years ago, Canadian Film, about a woman who is obsessed with a serial killer, who is standing trial, and Adam Neiman talked about it lovingly, CR and I talked about it on a couple of our horror episodes as well. And she also cropped up in Chandler, Lovac's "Milan Kicks" earlier this year, which I think is on Netflix now, if you haven't seen that movie. And she plays the woman who lets her house to Barbie Ferraris character when she's moved to work as a PR flag for a band, and she's completely different in "Milan Kicks," completely transformed. You wouldn't recognize her as the scary, obsessed girl from Redrooms. And so I have a lot of stock in her right now. I feel like she's a super special actress, and I'm excited to see what she does next. The other person who popped into my head is Theodore Polaren, who, I forgive me if I'm mispronouncing his name. He was the star of "Lorker," the Alex Russell movie that came out last year, and he gives an insidious and terrifying performance in that movie, and I feel like he's got a really bright future. And then two filmmakers who I really like, one is Arcasha Stevenson, who directed the first Omen, who was a great guest on this show during that, and she's not making a movie for A24, that I've heard some very exciting things about, and I think she is about to be a thing, so buyer stock now. The other is Curtis David Harder, who made two movies for "Shutter One" called "Influencer," the other called "Influencers," a follow-up film that I thought were very slick, and really well-made, and really entertaining, and deserved a little bit more attention than they got. And I could really see him making something pretty profound that I, so those are my early stock buys for actors and filmmakers. Okay, what's next? Oh, yeah. - They made sure to include this one for you. - Yeah, thank you so much for including us. - Of course. This one comes from Nick. Could you see Jay-Z releasing a Taylor Swift-esque concert film with all the hype he has generated with the three nights at Yankee Stadium? Is there real domestic or worldwide box office potential for more hits? pop-oriented concert films to succeed now or in the near future. And please give a quick top five HOV album ranking if possible. Incredible stuff. This has got to be a real one who has this question, Nick. I mean, Jay already had a theatrically released concert films called "Fade to Black." It's one of the best concert movies of all time. Unfortunately, it only made $800,000 in the box office, but it was meant to be his final performance that also acts as a dual-making of the black album where you see him by the scenes, working on songs with Timberland and Ferrell and Kanye and all the producers who worked on that record. And it's a great movie. It's a really fun movie. I saw it in movie theaters. Not many people did, but among Jay fans, it's a hugely relevant artifact. It could he do another one? I guess he could release the Yankee Stadium performances he just did a couple weeks ago. And that would be cool. And I was really jealous to not be there for those. I've seen Jay in concert many times, probably 10 or 12 times. So I don't feel like I need to go see him again. I saw him on tour with Mary J. Blodge. It was an unbelievable performance at MSG. So I've seen him quite a bit. Top five albums is hard. This really torpedoed my night, looking at this question. I got back from vacation. Let me just tell you a little story about my travel back from vacation for a second. I had a 12 p.m. flight on JetBlue and we flew out of JFK, which is the 8th circle of hell. And 12 p.m. flight took off at 11.45 p.m. We had an 11 hour and 45 minute delay. We were boarded. We were about to take off. And they told us the flight path closed. We were de-borted. We sat in the terminal for about three hours. Then we scanned our passes again. We went back into the airway, the sort of the air bridge. We lined up, stood there for 30 minutes, then they had us exit again. And we sat in the terminal for another three hours. Then they boarded us again. And we sat on the plane for two hours. And then we were told that the pilot was going to time out. This was after the previous round of pilots that already timed out. We were told that the pilot was going to time out at 11.45. The plane took off at 11.43. I was traveling with my wife in a five year old. This was one of the worst days of my life. There's nothing more boring than travel struggle stories from people who have nice lives. I understand that. I wish I could have used that time that I lost in this 12 hour period, listening to Jay-Z albums to come up with a better list for you. Can I tell you something? Yes. This exact thing happened to my father. You guys must have flown on the same day, except he made the critical mistake of not getting off the plane. So when they said everybody can get off the plane, he stayed on the plane, but then they got delayed again for another six hours. So he was stuck on the plane the entire time. We actually were going to stay on the plane, but they told us we had to get off after an additional hour. So anyway, that's 12 hours that are never coming back in my life. I did nothing of use at that time other than just be like a coil of anxiety about what was going to happen because there were no flights the following day. Everything was all booked out. There was only one or two flights on Monday. I wouldn't be here with you recording this episode and thinking about Jay-Z, my beloved Jay-Z, if not for that. Jay, let me just say a quick thing about Jay. I've met Jay-Z many times, maybe four or five times. I've been proximate to him a bunch of times. I had interviewed him maybe twice. He's one of the signature artists of my life. Somebody who had poured so much time and energy into thinking about none of that comes up on this show because of what the focus of this show is. It's so funny that Nick asked this question and that Jack even knows to include this question. Making a top five is a disaster because of how much time I spent with the records. There's a part of my list-making instincts that wants to be like, oh, people don't understand how underrated Blueprint 2 is or American gangster or I still ride for Watch The Throne despite Kanye being an absolute nightmare public figure and doing deplorable things. I still hear Watch The Throne and I get excited. I have a lot of time for 444, even though I was shifted out of that world by the time that record came around and I respect old guys making hip-hop. It's something that has not happened very often and that's a very reflective album that I appreciate. But the five for me right now, one is clearly reasonable doubt, which is one of the most cinematic albums in the history of music. It's just the introduction to a storytelling icon and someone who's grace with verbosity truly inspired me. I love listening to Jay String Words together and also craft his persona in such a compelling way. Really using the tools of gangster movie storytelling, of 40s gangster movies, of Scorsese films, of Coppola films. If you listen to the best songs on that album, then can I live as one of my favorite Jay songs of all time? That song sounds like it belongs in the Godfather even though it was recorded 25 years after that movie came out. Number two, okay, here's my one Zach. Just go with me on the Zach. Number two is Volume 3, The Life in Times is Sean Carter. Does it have the best most insightful lyric writing? No. Does it have the best pop hits? No, give or take, Big Pimpin. But it sounds like the future. We had that question about movies that see the future and the production on that album, the Dr. Dre beats, the Timberland beats, the beats are so crazy. It still sounds like a THX 1138 or something. It's such an incredible document of the way that hip-hop production was evolving and that Jay was always willing to jump on where it was going and push it a little bit further. I was in high school and that album came out. I remember mowing my mom's lawn being so fucking miserable. I had to mow the lawn twice a week for years and years. Not on the lawn, whether I was experiencing this weekend. Volume 3 was my salvation. Being able to listen to Volume 3 loud enough that I could hear it over the lawnmower, it transported me. That's number two. Most people will probably say that's a crazy choice, but it matters to me. Number three is the blueprint. Truly one of the most significant personal documents I think in rap storytelling. Also a movie that I think shifted the paradigm of hip-hop production. Really, really personal record. Number four is the black album, which is such a fascinating farewell. I would love to know what the world of rap would be like if he never came back. If he just stayed gone, he obviously was never going to stay gone, but such an interesting experiment by using a number of different producers. Not every song holds up for me on that album, but the experience of that album's release in real time was incredible. Number five is the dynasty rock laugh familiar, which is a fun album full of bangers. That's all I got. You could easily slot in Volume 1 or Volume 2 into number 5. I love Volume 1 and Volume 2. I was listening to Friend or Phone 98 non-stop on the way to work today feeling like I was 16 again and loving it. My best experience with Jay was I went to a listening session for those of you who don't know what that is. Once upon a time, journalists would be invited by a record label to come and sit and listen to a new album. Oftentimes, those events that I went to in the 2000s were full of like 100, 200 people, and they'd play you with free drinks, and they'd play the album so loud you could barely hear it, but the decibel level was so overwhelming that you couldn't tell if a song was good or bad. Jay-Z had this great tradition of inviting a select few people to come and sit with him, and he would play the songs one by one and talk about them. I did that with him like maybe three or four times, and I did it once for the American Gangster soundtrack, which I thought was such an inspired idea, and I sat right next to him during that session, and he was making fun of me because I'm a dorky white guy. I was about to get on a plane ironically based on that JetBlue story, and I had all my bags with me, and I was like the first person to arrive, and so I took basically the front row seat, and he like lovingly mocked me the whole time because I was like really vibing out and feeling myself during that listening session, and afterwards I got to hang out with him and talk to him for about 15 minutes because I was taking so many jabs from him throughout the session, and just a fascinating artist like somebody who I really, to this day, just by thinking about this question and listening to those albums was really taken. Okay, let's do a couple more questions. Okay, great. This next one comes from Schreeman. On a few occasions, you've said that you and Amanda are not critics. That being said, you continue to have "serious critics" on the show like Wesley Morris and Adam Naiman. In decades past, serious critics like Pauline Kale played a significant role in shaping the film canon that we appreciate today. What role do you think academic criticism has to play in defining the current era of cinema for the future? Do you think instead that Kale's progeny has been replaced by you and Amanda Griffin, David, C.R., etc? Gosh, this is such a, this is such a thorny one. I don't think anything has been replaced by anything. I don't think that critical canon is going anywhere. I just, I spent a lot of time over the break reading Jonathan Rosenbaum's "Substack," which is full of his writing over the years. He had a great piece about his time with Sam Follower, the filmmaker. So all that work is still present. There are tons of great working critics. I do think movie podcasts are very successful and popular right now. And so that maybe is throwing some of this in a state of disrepair. I say that the show is not criticism 'cause it's not. It doesn't mean that we're not saying whether we like or don't like a movie, but saying whether you like or don't like a movie, and even doing thematic analysis of a movie isn't necessarily film criticism. But the reason I keep saying it is because not just I have respect for the craft of it, having done it many times over the years, especially when it comes to music. But I'm not just because it's a conversation, but because I'm operating from a wholly subjective point of view in this space. And I don't really subscribe at this stage of my life to this idea of a kind of objective analysis of a work of art. I'm very informed by my relationship to the filmmakers, not just in real life, but my relationship over the years. I fully acknowledge that. If it's a filmmaker that I love, I've just wrote about this recently with Spider-Man 3, like Sam Raimi. I'm really interested in what Sam Raimi is interested in. And so I'm more willing to be forgiving of certain flaws in a film, because I see other things that I admire so much. We talked about this a bit in the Spider-Man brand new day conversation about the subjective experience of art, as it's been more democratized across lots and lots of platforms thanks to social media. It doesn't mean that criticism isn't still, there isn't still incredible work being done in that space, because of course there is. And maybe I do it from time to time, but I always feel a little uncomfortable with that word, because I'm also talking about a lot of things in the show that are not necessarily historically the domain of criticism, not just interviewing people, but talking about the industry and history of the business and my relationship to the careers of figures and a lot of higher article stuff, which is all kind of made up sports jargon-y stuff that doesn't really have any meaningful relationship to criticism. I, people are always saying like, do I not call myself a critic so that I can like, be nice to movies and not break relationships on the show, which like I get why people think that's the case, but I don't really know what to say. Like I don't ever have a guess on the show whose movie I don't like, or at least not interested in. And I see all the movies beforehand. I never book a guess before seeing the movie. So it's not really about that either. It's more just that the act of criticism, I think is a very singular experience. David Sims is a great film critic. I'm not sure that he's practicing film criticism when going through his favorite hamburgers on blank check. They're just two totally different styles of media. And so I don't think that they're going anywhere. You can read David's work in the Atlantic. It's terrific. Yeah, you can read my sub-stack and sometimes there will be some criticism. I've been thinking about a final girl's a lot. So I was reading Carol Clover's book again, Men, Women, and Chainsaws. And it's relationship to teenage sex and death and a lot of the horror movies that we've seen this year. And so I'm thinking like a little bit more academically about the history of horror and female representation in the stories. And you could make the case that whatever ran up writing, if I write it, would be an act of criticism. But talking with Adam on the podcast about some of those ideas and talking through them, I don't just don't see it in the state through the same prison. But thank you for your question. What's next? Next question comes from James. Coming off the Knicks, finally ending their long championship drought and the Mets recently celebrating the 40th-year anniversary of their last celebration. World to exactly. World series. I was wondering if you held any optimism for the future of the Jetson Mets to do what the Knicks have done. Which team do you think is more likely to do so first? And what is the path forward for these franchises for the record I wholeheartedly disagree with Sean's take? Boy, I'm excited about everything going on at Jets Camp. The obvious answer is the Mets, right? The Mets have young talent, have two exciting outfielder's. They have three potential rotation pieces. They have Francisco Lindor and Wonsoto and Boba Shett, almost certainly on their team next year. They have Steve Cohen's spending power. They have a, I think a very shrewd behind the scenes team, especially in the developmental phase. This year's been a fiasco. The year before that was a fiasco. I'm happy with the five out of six run that they're on right now. And I do think that they're, that Nolan McClanes going to be a really, really, really good picture for a long time in the cars and benches the star. I agree with all those things. Something is not clicking though. And the Mets find ways to lose in dispiriting ways. I guess all the things I'm saying are also true of the Jets. And the Jets are even more foolhardy and ridiculous as a franchise, but I don't know. I just have a weird feeling like it's been too long for the Jets for them to not do anything. We just had 2024 with the Mets. And now I'm just doing like Cosmos stuff where like the Cosmos were so against the Nix for so long that like the damn had to burst at some point. And I have a very similar vibe with the Jets. I love the offensive skill players in those position groups. I don't love Aaron Glendiz, their head coach, and I don't think he'll be their head coach. I don't think he'll be drafting their quarterback at the future next year. I could be wrong about that. I do think the team will be much improved this year though. I think they'll win six or seven games and they'll be a pain in the ass to play at times 'cause they're just gonna chuck the ball down field every single game. And I really like Darren Moosey, their GM. And I think he's made several smart moves. And so yeah, I'm choosing the Jets. Prove me wrong. If the Mets win next year, fucking A, who cares? Being wrong would be meaningless. I was totally wrong. I thought the Nix should have signed Katie and Kyrie. And they're failure to sign them. I thought was the worst thing that had ever happened to the franchise. You know why that mattered? Not at all. Katie and Kyrie could not care less about them. Jalen Brunson is an icon. Great story. We stayed in a hotel for a couple nights in New York City and we had to walk to the Long Island Railroad to Penn Station. My family and I last weekend. And we walked from our hotel to Penn Station and we arrived right outside of Madison Square Garden and one of the big LED screens flashed an image and my daughter looked up at the image and she raised her hands and she said, Brunson. It was Jalen Brunson on the screen. And I've never felt better about being a New Yorker in my life. Obviously I'm not a New Yorker anymore, but I will be forever. Okay, one last question, Jack, let's go. Comes from Leslie. What movie are you most excited to show Alice that you haven't yet? We tried to watch Project Hill Mary yesterday and it didn't take, it was too human and too complicated but it made me think this week we should do ET. Project Hill Mary is the first movie that hasn't worked on Alice in a long time. She's a very good watcher, but it reminded me of just how much you need ET to get Project Hill Mary. So that's my answer. I think that'll do it. We should save some of these and do some more in a future date. That sounds good. Okay, thank you for all your incredible questions. I hope I was open and honest in ways that were useful to you. I hope you find love. In the meantime, please enjoy my conversation out with Patrick Fischler. Okay, Patrick Fischler is here. You're here to tell me about the life of an actor, your life of an actor. Okay. I want to start all the way at the beginning. The first thing that I read about you is that your name after or an iconic eatery was named after you. An iconic eatery was named after me. Yes, so Patrick's Roadside. Roadhouse. Roadhouse, excuse me. Yes, I was four, four, five when my dad opened it and literally it just closed last year. So it's open for like 49 years. And this is on the one. It was on the PCH going up before Malibu and my dad opened it when I was super little and it kind of took off. And in the late 70s, 80s, it was like incredibly iconic here. And I was around sort of the business starting at a really baby young age. Yeah, so tell me about Los Angeles in the 70s, 80s, 90s. What was it like growing up here? What was it like to live here? What was your relationship to the media entertainment complex like? I love LA. I love LA. But LA in the 70s and 80s was pretty fucking great. It's really great. In what ways? It felt alive in a way. Santa Monica was not what Santa Monica is. It was not rich. It was a lot of old age homes. You know, on Ocean Avenue, it's all like fancy hotels and club. None of that. It was my grandmother who was in her 80s lived on Ocean Avenue in an old age home in one of those tall buildings. So it just felt different, especially Santa Monica. The West Side was not a thing. So that felt different. And being down at the roadhouse, I grew up in front of a TV. I was like a latch key kid. So my mom lived in South Africa. My dad had the roadhouse. And after school, I'd get home at age seven, which I can't believe because I have a daughter. Then I'd walk home alone from school. And I would eat a bowl of lucky charms and watch TV all day. And so I grew up in front of a TV and went to movies every five seconds. And then actors started coming in the roadhouse. And that, for me, was like, wait, holy shit. These people are real. And at a very young age, like Goldie Hahn, I was a huge fan of foul play. Private Benjamin seems like old times. And so she'd come in the roadhouse in 1979, 1982. And I was a little kid. And so it just-- it was kind of mind-blowing. And then it just became normalized. And I worked there. That was my first job. And I was 12 child labor laws. And-- - Family business? - Yeah, that's fine. So it was kind of incredible. It was kind of great. I mean, I just love the business. And not the business side of the business. I just love movies and TV. I think they have been kind of everything to me. - Did you learn that actors were real people by seeing them in your father's establishment? - 100%. - Do you remember the first person you saw that kind of broke the illusion of movies and TV? - I'm using Goldie Hahn as the example because she met a lot to me. Like, she's a comedic genius. And I guess foul play was really like, wait, 70, 80? - Yeah, 70, yeah, yeah. - So I was very little when I saw this person that, and foul play kind of covered a lot of stuff that was interesting to me, mystery thriller comedy. And I tried to show my daughter a couple of years ago and she was like, mm-hmm. - It's really fallen out of fashion that movie. For a movie that was a really big hit. - Yeah. - It came out. It hasn't been canonized in quite the same way as some of the others. - It didn't really hold up. - Okay. - But at eight or nine? - Fuck yes. - That's great. So yes, she's someone I really remember as like, wait, what? Oh, that's you. Oh yeah. And then it just kind of snowballed. - Did that encourage you to want to be an actor? - No, no, no. I don't know what encouraged me to be an actor. I kind of, I went to NYU and when I went to NYU, I didn't even know if I wanted to be an actor. I, before I went to NYU, I worked at Paramount in the story department. - No kidding. - Yeah, for like six months, my dad again. - Like after your senior year of high school? - Yeah, I took a sort of, I went to Northridge and went for a month to Northridge and I was like, yeah, I don't want to be here. And my dad from the Roadhouse knew Ned Tannen. - Oh, sure. - Yes, of course. - Legendary executive. - So he was like, does your son want a job at an internship? It won't pay. I'm like, he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I worked at the story department and then did a good job and worked then for Teddy Z who was a vice president of production. And he would just put me in a screening room and be like, watch these old movies. Tell me if we should remake any of them. It's like, what is happening? And at that time, they were doing like cousins. Do you remember that movie? It's a remake of, oh, I think you guys just talked about this. It's a remake of the French film. - Cousin Cousin. - Yes, yes, yes. - And Joel Schumacher did it. - Yes. - So that was Teddy's movie. - That's the movie that, gosh, who is the star of the film? It's William Peterson, right? - Yes, exactly. - Yeah, and it's like the William Peterson like sliding doors. - Just sliding doors. - Yes, that's so funny. So that was Teddy's movie. So that's one of the ones I remember we did. But so I was at Paramount and I was like, oh, I'm gonna be an exec. And then a bunch of my friends who were the year below me at, I went to Beverly Hills High School. They were like, we're gonna go to NYU. I'm like, oh, I wanna go to NYU. And again, Roadhouse. Everyone's gonna be like, oh, NEPO guy, but I'm not. Steve Tisch came in the Roadhouse. And so he Tisch School of the Arts. He was, my dad was like, my son wants to go to NYU. He's like, well, he's got audition. So I went to New York, auditioned and got in. And went with my friends to New York to NYU. And when I was there, I was really like, am I gonna be an actor or an exec? And by the end of school, I'm like, well, I'm gonna be an actor. - That's so fascinating. Were all of your friends going to study acting? - Yeah. - Yeah. - And was that because they were Hollywood kids and that was what you did? - Well, one of my friends who was really good friend of mine is Jameson Newlander. He was in the Lost Boys, the original Lost Boys. - Okay, sure. - He was one of the Frog Brothers. So he went and I thought, I just want to go. And they weren't Hollywood kids. They just all wanted to kind of be actors, which changed very quickly. When you go to college and everybody realizes freshman year, this many people stop software or junior, it goes the pool gets smaller and smaller. - Why did it whittle down? - Because people realize like, I don't want to be an actor. They think they do. I mean, it has continued to whittle because then a bunch of my friends after school moved here, a whole group of us. And it's just hard. The business, you know, wears you down. - Yeah. - I have a lot of questions about that. - Yeah, we can hit all of them. - I'm very curious. - It's a real thing. And so, anyway, so I went to NYU and by the end, I decided, oh, I want to be an actor. I want to go back to LA. Now, I laugh because I do believe in my heart. If I said I want to be a studio executive, I'd probably be a miserable guy, but I'd be running somewhere because I just, I knew I was on that. Those are sliding door. Those are my paths. - Can we talk about that for a minute? - Like one minute. - You having that exposure to that kind of world at such a young age is really interesting to me. I feel like I'm talking at studio executives professionally all the time. And most of the men and women that I meet that do the job are really kind, thoughtful people who really like movies. Not all of them. It's changed a lot in the last 15 years. But the ones who are aware of this show, I would say, usually are like, you really love movies. Let's talk about movies. But that job gets a terribly bad rap. - Yeah. - And the idea of you going in the direction of like pure artist and expression of yourself working in these formats versus the person who's making the decision that hurts people and breaks their soul and maybe ruins the movie industry is such a fascinating pivot in your life. Like, is there any part of you that wishes you went into the executive route? - This is amazing because I've never talked about this. - Okay, great. - With my group of friends. And no, there's no part of me that wishes I die of. Because I really love being an actor. I love it so much. But I would have been one of the few studio execs who tries not to break everybody's heart, but it's impossible. The job sucks because you can't make everybody happy. Like, there's no way. I go to so many movies and I see all the movies that are greenlit and I'm so excited and then sometimes they're bad. There's ones that don't make it. It's just all impossible. So, no, I'm happy. I'm my choice, my choice luckily worked. - What were the actors that you looked up to wanted to be like thought about emulating, especially when you're going to Tish? - I mean, I'm gonna shout out the number one because people never expect it. Glenn Close. - She is, by the way, I'm just saying right now if you ever do a Hall of Fame and you do not call me, we are never speaking again. - That's good to know and I love that. And as you know, I love to have somebody backstop us on a Hall of Fame. That she is, and again, as a young kid, randomly, my dad took me to New York when I was like 10 and we saw Barnum the musical and it was starring her. And she, I remember being like, who is this woman? She's incredible. And then seeing her in Garpe was the beginning. I mean, she has a run of Oscar nomination, Oscar nomination, Oscar nomination, that's mind blowing. And again, the big chill personally means a lot to me because I was a kid, Latchkey, family sort of not around a lot. And I, my friends kind of became my family. So I saw that movie at 13 and I was like, "Oh, friends are the answer for everything." And it has stayed that way. That my group of friends, I've known since college, my wife I met in college. So that movie really spoke to me and kind of shifted my life a little bit. And then she continues on a run that's just like, I mean, fatal attraction is, her performance is unbelievable. So anyways, she was someone that I thought, wow, she can kind of do it all. Well, is that what it was? Was it her flexibility versus utility as a performer? First utility. She could do period. She could do contemporary like all of it. Because forgetting, by the way, dangerous liaisons, which was another one that I thought, she just always blew me away. And obviously, De Niro, Pacino were all I watched, like as a kid in thinking I want to be them. But then something happened with her and it continued for years because damages, which was a show I was obsessed with, a good friend of mine, Glenn Kessler created it. And I remember seeing her on that when movie stars weren't doing TV. And I just was like, she can just do, she can sort of be a bad guy, but you still just love watching her and care about her and it kept going. It's in everything she does. So maybe that was it. I don't know. Her versatility was probably the biggest thing. It's fascinating. She's still going. I just saw her in Label and Negrit. Can't. She's great. It's amazing that she's still doing great parts. Incredible. I mean, I think she's kind of going to go forever. She's someone who the business is lucky to have. That's a great role model, though, because you can tell that she chooses things that interest her, that she's not driven by market forces at all. And that's really interesting for an actor like you. Did you study a particular methodology with a particular kind of teacher? Yeah, I went to NYU at the time, and still now you pick a studio. So it was like Lee Strasberg, Stella Adler. I picked a place called Circle in the Square, which is a Broadway theater on like 50th. And their method spoke to me, because again, this is kind of how I work. It was like everything put into one, meaning there's no right method. There's whatever method you choose, which Adler was very specific. Strasberg was very specific. And I just knew, I didn't want, I wanted to just kind of take a bunch of the meal and see which piece I like, what bite I like. So I went there, and that was, I had a teacher named Alan Langdon, who passed about two years ago, and he was, that was it. That's when I knew I was a good actor. He helped me realize, oh, I'm a really good actor. 'Cause when I went, I didn't know, I was 18 years old, I had no idea. Were you intellectualizing the process in college? Like, did you like that idea? Or was it 'cause some actors are like that and some are very just feel based, right? They're just emotional. - Fully feel based. Fully, I hate overthinking anything in life. My wife would tell you right now, I make decisions very quickly. I'm like, I think this is our, I go with my gut, and that's the same with acting. Obviously, if there's things to do or research should do, I'll do it, but I'm the guy who really likes to just go. - As you were learning about acting and thinking about it as a career. Was your relationship to movies changing at all? Like, there's a little bit of that thing when like, You are a sports fan growing up and then you become a sports writer and you lose all your fandom because you've learned too much. You never lost that. I'm one of the few, there's so many actors I talk to that are like, I don't like movies anymore. I don't watch TV anymore. I watch everything. I go to every fucking movie I can go to. I have made my daughter who is 17 now at a young age be like, we are going to the theater. You are not watching this at home. We are going to a movie theater. I love movies. It's one of the reasons this podcast kind of just shifted my life recently because I'm like, others like mine did people out there. We're still around. I'm not alone. And by the way, the business we're back a little bit, so it's an exciting time to be here. But I just, yeah, so what did you do? Did you immediately move back home? Immediately. I mean, like, that was always the plan just to come. The day after I graduated, I knew here's why, because I had friends who stayed there. My wife who I wasn't married to at the time, she stayed in New York for a couple of years. I knew I wanted to do film and TV and this was at a time when film and TV was not in New York. It's so different now. It's so crazy that film and TV is not in LA. It's everywhere else. But I knew I wanted to get right into that. I just, I wasn't theater wasn't where I was going. I just, I wasn't as interested in it. And so I moved back here right away and then slowly a bunch of my friends from New York started moving. Okay. You're 21. You've moved back. 22. 22. It's an agent. How are you figuring out how to go in addition? How do you actually do the job? Again, anyone who's listening to this podcast who's under 40 something will not realize that it was a time when we had to do plays. And so with my friends from NYU, we started a theater company called Narotic Yellow Urbanites Terrible Name, but NYU. And we, our first play was like a night of one acts. I mean, my God. I came in. If I saw it now, I'd probably die. And from that play, one of the girls in the play had an agent. And they came and they were like, Hey, do you want to audition for us? Come in to the fucking offices and do a monologue. So I went into, it was the agency called Buckwald and this is 1993 at this point. And I went in and did a monologue. You remember what you did? From the play called Private Wars. I did a monologue from the play I was doing and they signed me. I started auditioning. What was, when you were signed, was your mentality like it's happening? I will be De Niro. Like genuinely, like, give me a, give me a, there's going to be a meme of me saying it. So I'm not going to say it. But just examine your ego from that time. I'm very curious like what you thought. This is, oh my God, you have such good questions. I didn't think I was going to be De Niro, but I did think like, here we go. And the reality is this. So we can get, we'll get to this at a later point possibly. But my look in the 90s was actually not a look that the business really wanted very much. Did you describe what that means? Like, not generic, not handsome. If I was born in, if I was 22 in the 70s, my career would be total. Leading man. Yeah. Yeah. I can't believe that sometimes when I see these guys, I watch movies and I go back and I'm like, fucking a, this is the best time. And it started to shift in the 80s, but by the 90s, forget it. So I didn't audition as much as my other friends who were like, you know, more traditionally handsome or, you know, I didn't audition as much. But I did start working very quickly because it took directors who were like, I like his look. And my first job was someone who appreciates a European director and appreciates a different look. I did kind of think like, here we go. And it didn't kind of go like I thought right at the beginning. Well. Okay. Yeah. Tell me about your first job. Speed. Okay. So you booked speed. So I went in an audition for speed. This is what you know television before this? This is the first job in film television that you got was Yandobon's speed in 1994. Okay. Well done. It's 93. 93. No, the film you got in for. Okay. Okay. Okay. And like a guest spot on, I can't, I kind of don't know there was like a really bad show. I did do, again, Roadhouse. Oh god. These stories suck. I did a nots landing, which was the producer used to come in the Roadhouse. And I wanted to get my sad card. And that is how I got my sad card was nots landing. I was like a guy at the business who was like, hey, where are you going? I mean, I don't know. If you found it, again, worst thing. And so I met that, this is how I got my sad card. But the first job I think I booked may have been speed. So I went in and auditioned and it was Yand, and I was auditioning for like the guy on the bus. There was like a younger guy on the bus. And I didn't get it, but my agents were like, you got the guy on the elevator. I'm like, great. Amazing. I didn't care. I'm like, oh my god. And we, that elevator shit shot for two weeks. And we shot downtown and we shot at Fox. And they built the whole, you know, elevator shaft. And I'm 23 and I'm like, this is everything. This is the great, this business is amazing. Wait, so before I ask you about that, can you just tell me how you were cast out of it is Yand in the room when you're reading in a casting director? Yeah. Well, anybody else? Is any of the stars? No. No, no, no. I was Yand casting director, producers. Okay. Pre-read. I'd read for a casting director. And it was the guy in the bus. So I don't even remember. It was like a couple of lines. I don't even remember. And then I got called back to read with Yand for that same part. And he was, I remember just sort of loving his energy. And I could tell he liked me. And then, yeah. And then I got cast. Did you know when you were making the movie, this is going to be a massive sensation? No. No, we could talk about this for probably three hours. We won't. You guys, that movie was, I mean, it was, it was not, it was a Central Bullock had never done anything. Kiana Reeves was Bill and Ted. So yes, we had Dennis Hopper. I mean, you know, but the movie was not anything anyone talked about ever. Like that was not talked about. So when it opened, I love those movies. When all of a sudden everyone in town is like, wait a minute. This fucking thing is great. And when we were shooting it, I did feel something. I did, which I have the experiences where I can feel something and I'm right or feel something and I'm wrong. And this one was like, I think this could be really good. What do you think, what's your percentage you think over your career in terms of guessing right, whether something's going to work or not, because you've been in a million things at this point. I'll go, I'll go 60 40. Okay. 60 right. Yeah. But most of the wrong was when I was younger. I'm pretty good now. So speed happens. Yeah. Millions of people see that movie. It is a genuine sensation. Does it have a meaningful effect on your career? Like, are you not at all? That's why this is a weird job. It's honestly, man, there's, there's not, I mean, we can talk about it, but there's very few jobs that have been like the thing that have changed something. Speed, I mean, I had like two lines and I'm at the beginning of the movie. So it was like, I just went back to auditioning for guest spots on TV shows, like small little things, it didn't, it didn't, if it did anything, it was introduced by the young who then cast me again in Twister. That was the only thing it really did. It did something for me, though, because like, and emotionally, it actually did something for me, sharing a personal moment of like, my dad died in 97. So taking him to the man's Chinese in 94 to see speed and be like, you know, I'm doing it. I did it. That was really lovely. That was lovely. So, how do you make a career at this stage of your life? You're in your 20s, but jobs, they're not like jobs I've had where I am hired by a corporation and they pay me money to do a thing and I go in every day. You're trying to piece together. Each component part of your life is your, is your now life like still living in New York or are you guys going to get back together? We were just friends until she moved here and then we started dating about two years after she moved here. We've been together for 30 years. So we started dating in 97. So at this point, she moved here in 95, but I had this whole group of friends. To be honest, I love this because I'll be frank and my daughter will watch this, but like, we just get high and go to movies. I mean, that was what we were doing. It was 1994 and I was like, we'd either all have an audition and we'd work on auditions. We'd be like, oh my god, we have an audition. You know, but financially, I stopped working. I worked at the roadhouse up until a speed. And from that moment on, which is kind of amazing and I feel incredibly proud of it, I got health insurance every year, which is hard to get in SAG especially when you're not working a lot, health insurance every year and never went back to waiting tables. So that's pretty, that's how it changed my life, you know, because I would do guest spots. I would get a guest spot on NYPD Blue, like I did that, like I do stuff like that, you know. Can you describe maybe the psychological feeling of constantly being evaluated when you're reading for good jobs like this? It'll break you. Yeah. It has not broken me. I actually, I had a very weird strength that I still have, which is the power of saying no, and the power of passing and not trying to take stuff personally. I feel like most actors are totally unempowered. And I try to talk to young actors to be like, don't let the business not. treat you well because it's going to try to break you. Not intentionally, it's not like some evil thing, but it's really hard. It's really hard to not go into a room and not think that it's something to do with you personally. And it's often not. Are you trying to be artistically strategic when you're trying to book jobs like that? Are you trying to say I'm looking for filmmakers or shows that I know I respond to or creators? At that point, yeah. Do you want to give me money? I mean, like, I couldn't. There was no way because I wasn't capable of doing that because I also just, I think the reason I have as big a career number-wise as I do is because I'm a real believer in like, I just love working. I love it. And I enjoy making the money because there's been many years I haven't made as much. So residual checks are everything. They are everything. And that's another way I lived back then. I'll never forget that after speed came out on DVD. And I hadn't been working a little bit. And then I actually wasn't speed, damn it. It was twister. But I got a residual check a year later that was so big. I'd never seen a check like that because this was back when residuals were like insane. And so I'm very grateful that residuals have fed my life for a long time. But I do pass if I don't feel like I'm being valued in the way I feel like I deserve to be valued. What did you learn on the set of speed about acting? Like, I'm sure you learned a ton about how movies work. And nothing about acting. Nothing. No. We'll get to the day I learned about acting on film. It weighs away from it. Interesting. Yeah. Because I'm a 23-year-old kid from New York who'd only really done theater. And I thought I didn't realize what the camera was. And that will come. But what I learned about more was starting to see like shots. And there's two things. There's acting on camera. And a big one that a lot of actors don't do is learning where the camera is. So you the camera is doing scenes with you. Like if you and I are doing a scene, you're my scene partner. But the cameras are seen partner too. And I think it's very important to be aware of it. Which a lot of actors aren't. But I why is it important? Because for certain shots, it's very important to know the size. So I want to know if we're wide, my performance is going to be a little different than for here. Because I try to give the same performance. But when you got to save some of the stuff here and it's also got to be just a little bit less when you're here. So much of what film actors do is with their face. So I've always wanted to ask an actor this and I never have. Do you look at yourself in the mirror and practice making a gesture or a move with your face that indicates something? I just rewatched a bunch of episodes of you doing Jimmy Barrett. That's such a physical performance that you're doing in that in Mad Men. And it is a different kind of character than you have played in many times over the years. And I was looking at the choices that you're making very specifically. But like is that something that you have to work on individually to know that you're getting what you want to accomplish and what the film needs? Mad Men is very specific. So that can be it. It's on like conversation. What I didn't do those practices for the mirror. I don't I can't really do that. That would make me crazy. It would make you crazy to look at myself. It just would not. So maybe I've done it. Maybe what I sang the lines out loud, but looking at myself. I don't know. I feel like I go crazy. No, I've never done that. Never done mirror acting. Okay. So I'm going to try it now though. I'm going to try it once. Don't whatever you're doing is working. Don't change right now. In the 90s, were you thinking at a certain point, this is going to evolve and I'm going to be a big star? Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And was there a moment when you realized like actually I have a different niche or I have a different skill and I should apply that? No. No. I just kept going. Also, you know, I mean, you were being in your 20s. You're just an idiot. And so I was kind of just an idiot. So I just was like, let's just go let's just go let's hang out. Let's go drink. Let's go to the bar. Let's do that. That really was my life. And because I had a group of friends, we were all together. We all lived in Santa Monica. We all went out all the time. I started dating my wife. It was just like a sort of super free time. And I really wasn't thinking we were all talking about what jobs we were booking. And I was psyched for every guest spot I got. I was psyched for the jobs. But no, I wasn't, you know, when I was thinking like, where's this going? You know, but I don't know. I think just people in your 20s are just so dumb. Were you and your friends competitive with one another? Not really. No. I don't think so. I mean, I don't think so. We were all super psyched for each other and we were in a theater company together. So we were all happy to, you know, congratulate each other and be there for each other. And it was all exciting. So we were all kind of riding the same way together. And the waves start to break differently as it goes. What was it like when one of your friends either in school or in this time in your 20s, like through in the town was like, I'm not, I'm not going to pursue this anymore. I'm going to go get a day job. It was, you know, it's always hard because I find the business is like rolling dice. I don't believe if you're great, you're going to make it. It just doesn't work like that. In any field of art, it's a lot of it is random. So it was a little heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking because I just feel like I know many talented people who should be working more than people I see or work with that I'm like, wait, what? I find it very random a lot of the times. What would it be like? I don't know if you want, I don't know if you'd feel comfortable deciding a specific example. Did you ever go up for something that you thought you were perfect for and didn't get that really hurt? Oh my god. Fuck. I'm lust of. Didn't I? I don't know. This is hard in this moment. I've certainly applied to jobs now. I haven't gotten into that. I mean, damn it. I would answer this. This is the worst question because I would answer it. I can't think of it right now. Okay. There is still on it while we go through. There is a hundred percent jobs that I've gone out for that I've been like, I can't believe I didn't get that. Did you have any preference towards film or television when you were working jobs? Because you've done a lot of both and you've done a lot of TV now at this point too. It's just there's more TV made. Yeah. I started to come into a time when TV exploded. In the 2000s, till now it's like, so there were more opportunities. I was a believer of you do it all. Even though I grew up at a time where film and TV actors were so separate. So like when Clientel FDR, he went and did movies. You know, I just saw from Dustel Don at the Academy Museum and I was like, that was the moment when he was doing it when he decided to do that. That's so funny. I love that movie. So no, I was I was a big one for like, because I also grew up in front of a TV, I love TV. And I think you can tell incredible stories on TV. And so I was happy to do any of it. What was the job where you really figured out what film acting really was? Mahol and drive. Okay. So let's let's talk about it. Yeah. I know that you get asked this all the time. But it does feel like it may be at the top of your legacy in terms of what you've done. So you know, you appear in this extraordinary sequence in the film, legendary sequence. Lynch just passed last year. I'm sure people were asking about it or talking to you about it nonstop. But I do want to hear from your perspective. How did you get that job? How did you prepare for that job? What was it like doing that sequence? What does it mean to you now? Like I want the whole gigaboodle. I could talk about this forever. So I'll start with he doesn't audition actors. So I don't know if you've ever heard this. He didn't audition actors. You would go and meet with the casting director. And she would ask you questions about your life. And so I went to audition for Mahol and drive. And it was a ABC TV pilot, which I'm sure you know. And so she would just say, Hey, where are you from? And I was like, you know, and we just had a conversation like this with the camera's filming. And that's what David watches. So it's why in his movies, you could get like some amazing acting and then some like, is that person an actor? Do you know what I mean? Yes. And so because he never auditioned. He never auditioned people. But he's responding to an essence that a person has. Yes. Yes. And so I did that. And then I was like, okay, never heard anything, but not right away. And then all of a sudden my agents were like, you got that David Lynch pilot. And I was like, what? And then they sent, here's your scene. And I see this monologue. And I'm like, oh my god, I'm going to die. How am I doing this? And I kind of internally panicked because I will say this before I tell the story that David Lynch means more to me than anyone in this business because as a 14 year old, he'd sort of changed what movies could be when I saw Blue Velvet was, I forgot what year was. So it was 16. As a 16 year old changed, I didn't realize movies could be that. And then in college, I didn't realize TV could be what Twin Peaks was. So it changed movies for me. It changed TV for me. And then he changed acting for me because doing my whole drive with him was a game changer. So was that the number one reason you went up for that? Was that like a thing where somebody was like, you should, you should audition for this because it's a new show. Like, how does that actually work? No, I'm just minding it out. No, my agent's called and said, there's an audition. David Lynch is doing a new show. And I, I mean, the answer was immediately, oh my god, yes. Okay. Because I was Twin Peaks was I think people don't realize how ahead of the time Twin Peaks was It really it was nothing like that. That was not TV in 1990 Yeah, 91. Yeah. No, come on nothing look like we're just coming off dynasty and Dalit like it was late 80s was just ending It was there was nothing like that. So I Did it went and just talked to the the casting director and Got it. It was Joanna Rae was the casting director and then they called and sent me the pages and then I Go to sit to set Well, let me see one question before you talk about that was the idea that that part that you were playing in that pilot Was it would be an ongoing character in the series? It was okay. I don't think I've ever Said this but it was And people of guests. They're like always a guy talking to a therapist or their business been we were I was an agent Which makes total sense when you think about that show so I don't know where that would have gone but That's what I was told and that's amazing because it actually just makes it way more legendary that a we don't know and be that It didn't continue in that way. No, I know I don't know if that had been a pilot and kept going this would not be talked about in the way the whole thing would be different So again, that's another sliding doors. There's Mahal and drive the ABC show that lasts for one season or there's Mahal and drive the film So you show up on set what happens? I show up on set and I do terrible Terrible impersonations. So when I start to sound like him it doesn't sound okay, but you'll understand I go and so We rehearse the scene at the at the table and I do the monologue and I was doing what I thought was good acting and David who is a one of the lovelies people who's ever lived came and sat next to me and was just like wow I was I was really good Patrick really good Um, and I'm like thank you, and he said so you know, let me just let me just talk to you you know You're just having You just haven't a dream, you know, you just you had a bad dream right? You've had bad dreams, and I'm like yeah Yeah, yeah, and he goes and it's just um He didn't want to say the word simple, but I could tell what he was telling me was just Bring it do do a little bit less do a little bit less because I think what I was doing if we could ever see that rehearsal footage was pretty like It just didn't work for what he was doing and doesn't work for helmet TV and I Instantly understood when he was like, you know, it's just it's simple. It's just a bad dream I thought okay, and I'm kind of internally panicking because I'm like I'm doing a bad job and then something just clicked in me and I just Shifted everything I was doing and I could just tell Right after I did it and him coming over and just putting his arm around me, and I just knew like oh This is what acting in front of a camera is it's just It's just less. It's just less. You've been doing it for eight years at this point. I've been doing You know nothing that had a guy like that Yon is amazing, but Yon's watching the stunts and the like making everything being credible and David was not doing that This was still in the rehearsal though. Yeah, but then we shot it and I he never gave me a note again that whole day And we shot all of that in two days I think then we did the inside and then we did the walk outside Which I he talked me through what he was gonna do sound wise and that's what I was gonna ask you Because that so many of the choices that he's making in that scene I feel like would inform how you would perform like cutting out all of the background noise and the ambiance sound But then what he's gonna do a score and then how even the camera is gonna move like maybe you can help us understand what that's like when you're creating something But it's all there's it's just artifice all around you. I mean now in my career for many many years I'm I'm very clear on what's happening with the camera with direct like I want to know everything because I understand that I didn't fully get that then, but he was clear enough to say we're gonna He did tell me that like a lot of the sound was gonna be taken out But he didn't talk about score or anything and at that point I was so kind of in it that I just I didn't even Need to know anything because I knew the idea was this guy As we all would be if we had a bad dream somewhere to take your friend to that place the dream is just what you're thinking about when you're walking down there And so him taking out the sound and the score and the like that that's what it internally felt like to me So I didn't even need to know that much, but he did include me in some of it and camera wise he didn't But again, I I'm not an actor reactor, but I was kind of lost in all of that at the time in a great way I felt very Just lost in the whole thing because it was also it's so lynchian to be lost So does a moment like that spoil you as an actor where the next thing that you're working on that is more of a work-a-day type job You're like, I wish I could get back to that feeling. That's an entire career. That is my entire career. Yes Yes, that is that is that I would love to talk to any actor that wouldn't say you get spoiled and then The next one may spoil you again or it may not and you just kind of got to go and do it Well, how can you just talk about that? Interregnum between the it not becoming a series and then it ultimately Yeah, I'm curious how you felt because I'm sure you felt like I gave a good performance in a David Lynch thing and I want this to come out I was like I can't wait. Everyone sees this. This is gonna change everything and then we got word ABC didn't pick it up And I was like okay, so back to the grind of auditioning for step-by-step or whatever which I wasn't Has that happened many times though where you were in things that eventually never has caught? Yes It's again continual you just Can't expect anything to be anything because when you don't expect it to be something it's obsession And when you like meaning you just don't know but I was bombed I was severely bombed and then I got it like a letter in the mail I'm not kidding. I got a letter in the mail from David a typed letter saying hey Studio canal wants to put up some money to turn Mahal and drive into a movie Would you for scale come back and do a little additional thing? Which is what ends up being when she turns around and sees me standing at the cash register That was added okay, and I was like oh my well obviously of course So we went back to that same place. I just did that little shot where Naomi looks over and I'm standing there I had no idea what's going on And then next thing I know it's it's a film and the majority of the first hour and something is the pilot Mm-hmm. Like he really just shot another movie like he shot like 45 minutes, I guess of additional footage to turn it into a film This is an interesting contrast that the speed experience to because even though the speed part is significantly smaller You don't have a monologue. It's not this kind of iconic moment It also had they both sequences happen early in the film Yeah, and you could forget them just like people tend to forget the first hour of many movies after this Yeah, but you're seeing I mean I remember I was in the theater the when that movie came out and we were all like What the fuck just happened like it really is Such a truly memorable moment in a film that is full of memorable moments. It really impacts people in a very deep way Did anything change after that because I'll tell you from out the outside would change for me please Well, I think that that's when you ascend to this like the that guy status where it's like you are a person who at a minimum You will forever be associated with that and then when you see older things that you were and you're like oh my gosh That guy and I'm interested in that person because they can do something that is very special So even if your name is not yet known You take on a character you become a character in the wider world of Hollywood storytelling. Here's what I'll say That is all absolutely true. It didn't happen at the time It has happened over a progression of time because at the time that movie comes out It's not it was like a People I mean obviously he got a best director nomination, but it still didn't shift Anything for me. I kind of just kept on the same because the business was like Naomi Watts is the thing you take away from that movie not the guy at the diner But the that guy had status what started is that performance as you just said kind of helped people notice me and other stuff And then it has built what's happened over the years is that movie has become so incredibly iconic that my That movie being associated with me has helped me much more in the last 15 20 years then Right when it came out even though the kiss that's 25 years ago came out. Do you feel like that part is the thing that led to that You know ghost world old school black dollya like you're in this like chain of movies where There may be real filmmakers and they're or their studio movies and are you getting like called into audition? I don't think so. I mean I got into audition for ghost world which my wife is in ghost world as well That's the first thing she's the girl. Have you seen that movie? Of course yeah at the yard sale the one that's like fuck you Yes, that's great. That's my wife. So we have like three things we've crossed over together. That's one that's an iconic mom Yeah, so that movie was an audition. I had and then I mean all of that was all me Just kind of that part again was nothing but sort of the pen in the ear was all me just kind of doing it at the time I honestly I don't remember but I don't know how much that was all mollhorn drive, but it was like a slow Build and old school. I actually this is fun to tell stories. I've never told but like it was Pivot and I for his part and then I didn't get it and then they were like, do you want to be this guy? And I'm like, sure, I'll be that guy. And so I did that. And then it just kind of kept going. It just kind of kept growing, but I don't know how much at that time had to do with mall and drive. Like, Black Dahlia had nothing to do with mall and drive because I auditioned for that. And I'm, uh, Carrie was the first movie I saw in a theater, which is unfortunate because I was six. Um, nothing unfortunate about that. And I, so the palma was big for you. I mean, yeah, yeah, the dress to kill blowout. Carrie, that's it. So when I went in and read for that, I was really nervous. And when I was leaving after I read, I just read, and he was there and he was like, okay, thanks. And then I left and before I left, I'm like, I just have to tell you, you mean a lot to me, like as a director, you have met a lot. How did he receive that? Fine. Okay. Yeah. You know, he's not the warmest. No, he received it. Depama S. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, okay. And then I got it and went to Bulgaria and shot that, which I will share and be totally frank. That is a movie I think I'm not very good in. I think I'm fine. I think I maybe miscast. I think I'm maybe too young. And I also think I may not, I think I didn't, I still needed a director to help me and no fence. I'm not sure that's what was going on. We were all in different movies, like Scarlett and me and Josh and Hillary. We were all like, I kind of just felt like in different movies. And that is so interesting because I'm really sort of, I like, I like to look at myself and be like, honest about it. And I do remember kind of watching that and thinking, uh-oh, that's all right. It's not great. So interesting. You know, I mean, and I always talk about a duplicity. And like if you did duplicity a hundred times, like if it would come out better 99 times. Yes. I was kind of one of those movies to me too, where I'm like, it's all the right people. It's the right story. It's the right material. I mean, it was Phil Mosigman, Dante Ferretti, because I remember doing it and thinking, there we go. Hold on, this is a perfect example of what you asked. I was like, oh, it's about to change because 13 Oscar nominations. I was thinking of the Oscar nominations when I was there. And then I went to the premiere and the air was going out of a tire like live while I was watching that movie and thinking, oh, and I felt it on set. And I don't blame Brian. I don't I don't even, I don't know what it was. We were all in different movies and movies can't work if everybody's in a different movie. You all need to be doing the same thing. No matter what, the TV show, the movie, you all need to be on the same page. And that felt like something that it just felt off. It felt like the like you said, the parts didn't click. And maybe there's a version where the parts do click. Yeah. It's such an interesting thing. Is there ever a moment when you realize that on set and you can change the dynamic or shift it? Now the director, I can't. I mean, I can only realize and I do realize it on set now. And I didn't then because I was again, 33, 30, I was young. Yeah. That's why I think I was kind of too young for that role. But you know, I just, I'm so grateful for him because I loved doing it. And I got to travel a lot of that part of the country and my wife came to visit me and everybody was lovely. And you know, there's nothing you can do about it because you're not in charge. And so if people are, I don't even think anyone was necessarily miscast, it was just, it just was a, you know, I like to cook. And sometimes the ingredients just, they don't make a dish that tastes good. You mentioned you have a daughter. I do. Fia. This movie was made before you had her. Yes. And I'm wondering like if your career and the jobs you took changed before you had a family. If it changed once I had the family? No. No. Yes. Sorry. Yes. Actually, I've been offered like serial killer like, which I would totally play a serial killer if it was in something that was trying to do something or was, but I've been offered things that are not or child molesters or things that I'm like, I don't want any part of that unless the writing is incredible. And I feel like we're going to touch on something that hasn't been touched on. So I have said no to stuff that just feels like since my daughter, that I would have taken it 30. I'm interested in that component too because many people think of a working actor as like somebody who's constantly trying to book jobs. But I love talking to Tracy Letz about this about the things he said no to where they like, we want you because you're perfect for this. And you're like, well, this isn't something that I want to do. But also I want to pay the bills and take care of my family and so on and so forth. Maybe can you talk about the decision making like the financial component, the artistic component, how those two things fit together? Well, yes. As we said earlier, I'm good to say yes. I enjoy saying yes. But and I enjoy making the money because it helps to pay the bills and send my daughter to college and all that stuff. But it just, if it just feels wrong, it's not going to be fun for anybody, including myself or anybody there. So and if you know, I've been doing this a long time. So if you're not paying me what I feel like I should be paid, that's the other thing is I'm just I'm okay to say no because I know something I've always been this guy that I know something else is around the corner. And I know I'm going to be okay. And I feel like it's served me. I've yet to be like and I've done stuff for money. I'm not fast going stuff for money. I have no problem with that because I do have to it's my job. Yeah. But it's not hard to say no when something just feels like. Yeah. Yeah. Does your antenna go up when something like lost comes around where you're like, I know that this is a sensation and I'll do anything to be a part of it. Yes. Can you talk about joy because I want to hear about loss in Mad Men and appearing on two shows just as they are like something is happening. I mean, just an incredible time. I was also at the same time on a show that didn't take off in the way I thought, Southland amazing show. I love that show. That was like, what is happening in my life? That show was on AMC or HBO would have been different. It would have been that show was really incredible. So Mad Men was first. So if we want to do want me to talk about that before. Yes. Let's do Mad Men. So Mad Men, I was at a town in Florida doing a show called Burn Notice. That was a show as well. It was a show. And I was doing that and my manager who has been my manager for years. I have two managers and they're amazing. She reached out to me and she said, Hey, oh my God, I wish you were back. They're auditioning for this comedian. I'm Mad Men. You'd be great for it. And this is before again, self tapes. We are in a different era now. This is the self tape was not a thing. So I wasn't in LA and I was like, well, I'm shooting. I obviously can't come back. I landed and got a phone call from her and she's like, they're doing one more day of Mad Men. Can you get this all these sides together tonight? And I'm like, oh, for fuck's sake. And I look at the material and it was the dinner scene when I go and yeah. From the benefactor. Yes. So something clicked where I knew this. I knew who this guy was. I really knew who this guy was. My dad at the roadhouse would insult people when they came in. He was a very gregarious guy with white hair and he stood in the front and he insult people and they laugh and people would come to be insulted. It was really interesting. And I had this moment of like, oh, this is kind of like my dad. And I thought I also just I didn't even watch anything. But I was like, oh, I kind of feel like I get this kind of insult comedian. And I wanted him to have some sort of charm because I didn't want it to any wasn't Don Rickles. It's not Don Rickles. Like he was kind of Don Rickles meets Joey Bishop in my mind. And so I went in and I read I met Matt and there's a New York Times magazine that you you article you can find about there was a reporter in the room when I auditioned. And it's in the New York Times magazine. So I only know all of this from fucking reading the article. And you didn't know when you walked in that room at that time. Yeah. It's Matt casting this woman. I thought she was a producer. And she wrote about it's kind of awful because she writes about they couldn't find this part and they kept seeing people. You have to find this Google my name New York Times magazine. Not your he was you know them in the times on Sundays. Yeah. Sure. And it was a whole article on Matt and it was this is coming off of the first season the success of the first season and we're relating it to madman season. Yes. And so she talks about and in case the I'm not giving myself a fucking compliment here and quoting what it said. She goes and in came gold. And she talks about Matt's shoulders going down and like to read about what someone was in an audition experiencing with you. I've never had since. I'll probably never have again because that's not a thing. Reporters are not in rooms. So great for your legend. Dude. Dude. So but I knew when I was in the room and I knew Matt I could tell his energy to me. It was like oh shit. I just got it. I got the guy. And so then I read got the part go to the table read and the woman who's playing my wife Melinda McGraw is older than me and Matt came up to me after the read and he's like we got to do something to make you look older. It's a problem. And I'm like I'm getting fired. I can't fucking believe I'm getting fired from admin and I my hair is very white. I most jobs diet like the show I'm on right now colors it and I said to him oh whoa whoa whoa wait wait it's really white under here and he goes what and I go look look look so I show my roots and he's like okay we got to go let me get hair so they got the hair department and he's like I want him to have all white on the sides and that'll help age him so don't dye your hair will just dye the top cut this short, all of this is happening as I'm thinking, "Fuck my fire, and my fire, and my fire." And I wasn't fired, obviously. And then I go and do madmen. - It's a wonderful thing, 'cause your performance is phenomenal. It's also coming off of a moment where the show gets very hot all of a sudden at that first year. So a lot of people are interested in it. It's also it's the media's favorite show, so they're constantly talking about it. But it's also your character is so pivotal to the rest of the future of the series, because of what he does and how he affects Betty and Don's marriage. So like, you're one of the 10 most important characters in the history of that show. - I kind of knew it when we were doing it. I was, oh well, I knew what I was doing. I mean, I'm the first person, like I'm telling Don off, calling him on a shit, and telling Betty about his affair. So I knew it at the time, I'm like, this is insane. And when I did the first episode, you know, I hadn't seen scripts, I didn't know what was coming. But Matt did say to me, to help your performance, you're gonna have a line in six episodes from now. I've been standing behind guys like that my whole life. And I was like, oh my god, I just got it. - Did you know then that you were on a six episode run that it was gonna be multiple episodes in a row? - I think they had told me, I forget, but I think they told my rest. - Is that really how it works? - Yes, they have the season. - Like I'm signing up for X number of episodes. - Yes, with Paradise, I knew. - Yes, they tell you, they shows that haven't mapped out usually tell you, yeah, most of the shows I've done recently in the last years, yeah. So Mad Men, I think they had told me how many I was doing. But I didn't know that I was telling Jamie. I didn't know any of that. So he just wanted me to know here to help you, this is a line you're gonna have, does that help? And I'm like, that's it, that's the guy. That is literally the guy. I've been standing behind guys like this my whole life is the line, I mean, that's who this guy was. - I still think that's the best show. - It is my, just going back to look at what you were doing yesterday, I was like, I'm in my happiest place watching this show. - It is really remarkable. So that was spectacular and super fortunate. And I, again, that is that show was the career shifter for me. - Was it? - Yeah, that was the game. - That's interesting to hear. So does that lead directly to loss? - That leads to loss. That leads directly. And Carlton, my first recurring thing on TV, was a show called Nash Bridges. - Oh, of course. - Oh boy. - Yes, of the late Chuck Norris. - If we can talk about that, no, not Chuck Norris. - Oh, I'm sorry, Don Johnson. - Don Johnson. - Not Walker, Texas, Ranger, Nash, Bridges. - No, no, no, no, the other one. - Yes. - Judge Maren, Don Johnson. - My apologies. - Boy. Oh boy. - Anyways. - Fun production? - Sure. (laughing) - And so, again, I'm 24, 25, recurring on the show, playing a character now I'd be canceled for. Again, I'd be seriously, never, it is so. - On network television. - Oh yeah, so offensive. I honestly, I just can't, but I mean, look, in fairness to me, I didn't know what the hell was going on. The world's as different. It was, that was a whole ball of something. But Carlton, Q's wrote on that show. Damon Lindelof wrote on that show. Sean Ryan wrote on that show. I mean, that show found some sort of something. - All of those network shows were cruisables for all those creators who you ended up working with later in your career. - And so that was lost. And so then I get a call that they want you to come do lost. And that was an example of they didn't tell me how many episodes. I just went and did that first one. And then I kept not being able to leave, 'cause they're like, wait, you're in the next one, wait, you're in the next one. And my wife was pregnant. And so I will always give credit to this, to Damon, the line producer, everybody for helping me. But I knew we were done, they kept saying, and I said, am I in the finale? And they said, yes. And I said, my wife is a do. I, I can't, either you have to shoot me out way at the beginning, or I can't do the end episodes. And they changed the, they put all of my stuff which people don't do on big productions. They do not do, especially I wasn't some huge partner anything. But they, I guess sure, you know, and then they did it for me. And I was able to get back, I had to be back like three weeks in case, you know, my daughter came early and I just was like, no job. There are just things you're just nothing in my life in my ever missing for any kind of job, no matter what the job. - That's such fascinating timing, too, that your daughter would be born at this time when it feels like everything changed where you're like, I assume stability is a part of that. - For the most part, we're the window in there where I did think like, oh, I was wrong. My, it comes up later where I had a sort of dry period where I, and it came at a time when my wife was on true blood. She was on true blood for five years. So the timing was okay because we've always see sought kind of. But I knew in my heart it was all going to be fine. But yes, my daughter, I think children bring great luck and great fortune and great everything and she brought that for sure 'cause it was all just happening and lost was one of those things then that year, lost and madmen were the five nominated writing Emmy drop, those two shows. So I went to the WGA Awards and presented because I was on both shows. So it was pretty cool to be like, oh wait, these five things nominated are all something that I got to say the words of. - That is absolutely amazing. What's it like being in a marriage with somebody who is doing the same job as you? - Amazing. - You talk about the work. - Well, we've been together so long. We talk about the business more than the work, but we talk about the work. We talk about everything. I mean, she's my best friend and I mean, it's just my life. But yeah, I love it. People are always like, don't marry and I'm like, that's a complete bullshit. If you're stable and you're cool and you guys love each other and your best friends, you can both be actors. It's all gonna be okay. - That's interesting. - So what is the down period that comes up? This is after the show? - No, it was after Madman lost Southland and there was like, if we look at my MDB page, there's like a period that's like, what was I, I don't know. - Did you ever think about quitting? - No, God, never. - Literally, 22 on, never. It was never an option and I know I wouldn't have to. No, so when I say a down period, I still worked, but I'd maybe get a guest spot of one episode. Like it was sustaining me, but it wasn't, it's so hard to go from the best show on TV to, you know, I don't know whatever I did. But it was a little bit of a period of time that just felt like I was not being seen, you know? And that was a little challenging. - You were a little critical of your own performance in Black Dahlia. Is there anything that you've ever done that maybe is lesser seen or lesser known that you're like, I know I crushed this. I know that I was good in this. - Defending Jacob, an Apple. - I haven't seen it. Is this the Chris Evans show? - Yeah. - Yes, yeah. - That was a perfect example. I shot that and I thought, I mean, here we go. Chris Evans is doing TV. This is a game changer. And that was such a great story. The showrunner of that told me when my audition came in, he saw my face and was like, oh, he's not right for this because it's a grieving dad who's, I'm the dad of the kid who's been killed. And he just was like, I mean, I love that actor, but he's always playing the asshole or the villain or the this. And so he watched my tape and said to me, I was totally wrong. You floored me. And that was one of the best auditions I've ever given, ever because it's in a very emotional scene. And the motion stuff is often hard. I can find it in my later life. It's post-kid, super easy to find. And this is a thing about a kid who's passed, who was murdered. And so he totally, it was amazing to have someone be honest with me, that is the business. They want to box us. And I'm just like, don't box me. I promise you, I can do a lot of stuff. And so defending Jacob was one of those things that when I was shooting it, I did thing and I'm good in it. And I thought, oh my God, I can't wait for the world to see it. And then COVID came out, COVID came. And it came out in April 2020. So again, people were home and the reviews weren't great, but it's fine enough that I thought people would watch. And Chris is one of the love is people have ever worked with. He is an absolute joy. So when you say you thought everything would change and you've had that thought a few times, was part of that thinking maybe I won't be typecast as the asshole or as the villain? That's exactly it. Which I'm really not anymore. I will say the business doesn't, they're people that still want that. And they want to limit you because, you know, I think it's easier for them. And I'm happy to play the asshole. Like I love playing the asshole, it's great. But I also want to play the this or the that. And I feel like I'm really getting to. I feel like I'm really, really getting to do something. What do you, why do you think that is? Because I think I'm older and I'm done enough work that a lot of directors and show runners and riders trust me. And they just know that I'm capable of much more than people maybe thought at first. You know, I'm not just Jimmy Barrett. I can do Jimmy Barrett because I have an ability to do a lot of different things, right? You know, that's why. - So I find you at an interesting time where you're in a bunch of things. - Yeah. - And I feel like you're being used differently in all of the things. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, the top of the list for this show is Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. Where I feel like you're being used almost as like a talisman. Like almost as like a sign to the audience of like, do you know what movie you're watching? - That is. - You remember Patrick, this is what he represents to us. I guess it's not. Is that how you felt about it? - That's how Jane feels about it. I think I'm putting words in their mouth, but I, yes, I do think that is why. I think that is a ball hole in drive talisman, to be honest. And I think, I remember when I got the offer for that, and I love TV glow, so I was pretty thrilled and I'm a Friday the 13th absolute fanatic. The first one is, again, I could talk about Friday 13th forever. I like when killers are not just monsters, but the fact, anyways, spoiler alert. - You're wearing Halloween t-shirt today, but you're repping for Friday the 13th. - I am, I am, because I don't have a camp crystalline shirt, and if I did, I may be able to worn it, but-- - I have one, that would've been great if I'd worn it today. - Oh, should've, yeah. But when I got the script, and then I spoke to Jane, and I mean, I thought the idea is so brilliant, and I thought, I love your work. I told Jane whatever you want, but I looked at it, and that part is like the guy at the gas station. It was written, not me. And I said, hey, I thought, if you want me to do this, maybe it's not like the normal, you know, like Hick at the gas station guy, and Jane was like, what is it? Tell me, what do you think? And I was like, what if I'm in like a sports coat? And it's more of like Norman Bates combined with something else, and Jane was like, let me go rewrite it, and then sent me pages, rewrote that stuff, and my answer was like, amazing. Yes, I'm in. - So the thing that interests me about that, from your perspective, is like, what does it mean to become a signal to movie culture, you know? That like, you're just your mere presence communicates something to those-- obviously, it's a very meta film, and it's a film for, 'cause it really rewards like horror obsession. - Yes. - But for you as a person that you've gotten to a place in your career where someone is casting you in a part, because of what you tell us about what kind of movie you're watching. - Yeah, I mean, it's everything. It's pretty cool. - It's, no one has said that to me, and I haven't been able to put that in those exact words, but that is everything. That's all I could ask for. Like, I don't need anything at this point, but that's pretty fucking cool. And Jane, I remember writing them a note after shooting, because Jane reminds me of David Lynch, and there's something similar happening of not caring what anybody thinks and just putting a singular vision on screen. And so, yes, I'm happy to be a talisman. I'm thrilled to be a talisman, please. - So interesting. I do want to ask quickly about working on LA Noir, the video game, which is another like working after thing, like that's a job. - Only game I've ever done. I don't say yes to games. I don't want to do games. - Why did you want to do this? - Because it was right after Mad Men, and it felt like cool. I don't know, something felt cool about it and different. Again, I didn't know people. I've never, I think I've seen my image on the game. I don't, I don't know. - You don't play it, you're not, not a gamer. - I played Atari, and that's a little different. - But it's a different kind of acting, right, 'cause presumably it's a mocap. - Oh, it's all mocap. And it was, the craziest part was the room with all the cameras in the face. And the mocap was all, they had the whole sets laid out in all the, you know, whatever. Silverware, and you had it all there, but then you had to go into the room with all the cameras around you and do the face stuff. - Interesting. - It was pretty remarkable, and I'm so glad I did that because it was super cool. And I'm, wait, who do I play in it? - Mickey Cohen. - Right, and then I played, yes. And I played Meyer Lansky on the Frank Derbont show that didn't last, lost to Angel. - Yes, that's right. - Yes, so I did that. I remember that was one. There we go. In the finale, and I'm like season two, this is Meyer Lansky, and Derbont was so lovely, and I'm like, I can't wait for, wait, it's canceled. Oh, okay, oh shit, all right, that's over. - What a weird career you have. I have to ask you on Amanda's behalf. Something's got to give. - Oh, Telemanda, she'll hear this. - She'll hear this. - I had to audition for that. I want to really give the real answer here. I think I had to read for it four times. Because Nancy is very specific. Four times. I think I have three lines, maybe four lines, four times. And at the time, I remember being like, what's happening? When they call me back, the note was A, or the note was B, very small. And I'm like, okay, and I was fine doing it 'cause I knew who the movie starred. And then I will say this, shooting it, there's maybe no one lovely in the world than Diane Keaton. That was, she was just the best. And I was a young guy and I was so star struck and she was so lovely. And then Jack was just watching The Lakers. - I mean, no, Jack, literally they had to bring a TV to set 'cause we were in like a big theater downtown. I forgot which one and she's just got the TV rolled in 'cause it was at a time when, and you know, she's just talking to me and he's just watching The Lakers. And I was like, Hollywood. - That's really great. Maybe setting aside Mohanlon Drivewoods, your favorite thing you've been a part of, or maybe your best experience on a project. - Oh man, oh my god. Oh, there's a very undiscovered gem of a TV show that I don't know if you can find it anywhere called Happy. It starts Chris Maloney. - Okay. - I just did it in, we did two seasons. It was sci-fi, S-that, not like, S-C-I, S-Y, sci-fi. And then when Netflix, 2018, 2019. - Okay. - It's based on a graphic novel by Grant Morrison about a hitman who starts seeing an imaginary blue flying donkey that's his daughter's imaginary friend that was voiced by Patton Oswald. And I'm smoothie, who's the big villain of the show for two years. It is so spectacular, Brian Taylor. - Yeah, sure. - It's his show. - I've never seen it. I know it. - I find it. It's so fucking weird. It's so over the top, we did two seasons of it. I was so proud of it. It's balls to the walls. It, I love Maloney. I loved working with him. Our chemistry was great. And I'm the big villain that carries through the two seasons that it was on the air. And it was an amazing experience. And nobody watched it. - Happy. - Happy. - Okay. - Exclamation point, happy exclamation point. Before I let you go, let's nerd out about movies a little bit. - Please go. - So you actually are watching new releases regularly. - In the theater, of course. - Which is-- - I mean, I have not seen the new release, but I'll go on Sunday. 'Cause we had a way, I've taken my daughter again, making her go to the theater. But yes, I'm seeing, I mean, I just saw the invite, which is one of my favorite films of the year easily. - So I'm interested in your, like, ability to still be enthusiastic about it. When you're watching a movie, are you seeing the stitching and the choices that are made in a different way? Then, like, are you explaining to your daughter, well, here's how they did this, or I've been on a set that does this. - She loves movies, she loves writing, she loves a lot. So I don't explain, at this point, she's in. - Okay. - No, I gotta tell you, man, it's the best. I watch things, I love things. Like, I wanna go in, I'm not going in judgmental, which is not common for actors and directors and people in these business. I want to be swept away, I wanna be emotional. I could cry at anything. So, I'm so open. So when I don't really like something, which is rare, but has happened this summer, there's been some things I've seen that I've been like either disappointed by it or they've been okay, or me as well. I'm open. I'm totally open and I don't watch the, I don't even think about actors on set. I think about watching the invite. I think about how fucking good the writing is and I think about choices they're making and how incredible they are. But I really, I go in really wanting and open to this being great. I'm so excited to see stuff. What about TV, do you watch a lot of TV? We watch way too much TV. I'm, I just, none of it's ever gonna go away. We watch so much TV. Like, we have a couple, we're slow with TV, my wife and I, 'cause we have like six shows going at once, which is kind of insane, but like, you know, we're still trying to get through beef, we're getting through widow's bay, we finished maximum pleasure guaranteed. It's exhausting. I'm so busy in my life right now that we laugh like we find time to just squeeze it in. But the same with TV, I am so open to wanting things to be good. I'm excited. - How much of when you're watching things is just like kind of industrial concern for the health of Hollywood? Like, do you think about that? Like, I think about that for reasons that are mysterious to me. Like, why do I care about this so much? But I do and it's a lens through which I see a lot of things. You know, once I'm done being swept away by something. - Yeah. - And I've tried to figure out why I like it. - Yeah. - Basically, it's like, well, what does it mean? How does it impact XYZ? And when I sit down to write about something, it's always through that lens. And I'm trying to figure out why that is. But I'm curious for somebody who actually does the job who is actually reliant upon, you know, the health of the movie business or the health of television or streaming versus whatever else is the other alternative. Are you thinking with that cap on? - I'm not, but we're fucked. No, I'm kidding. It doesn't, it seems like it's really, really bad and also okay at the same time. - It's the weirdest feeling that is exactly what it is. It's so scary. And it's not going great. And then at the same time, I'm like, I think we're okay. So I don't understand the feelings I'm feeling. I'm confused by them. - Yeah. - But I feel it with TV, TV's weird. TV's not great. Here's why TV's not great. I'll tell you this. I just listened to Wild Back, David Kelly on The Town. - Yes. - And he described this that when he used to make TV, that, It was like the execs were like Customers at a restaurant who would just be at their table and say I don't love this and the chef would be the showrunner would be like Oh, let me get you something else and they'd go and fix it or let me fix that for you all good now The execs who are the customers say I don't like this I'm gonna come in the kitchen with you and I'm going to tell you what to do and I'm gonna I'm gonna cook the meal and it's like that doesn't work execs are the best shows or I think when execs give their notes, but also step back and there's a lot of Just touching that doesn't need to be happening from your perspective as a not a creator or showrunner Do you think that that is just because it's a very data-oriented business that tells you the things that we they believe people do and do not want? Yes, yes, I think we are Not we you and me personally, but the business is relying on computers to tell them what the the joke in Barry the algorithm joke Yeah, it's not a joke. It's totally real. It's just Really scary that they're like this is there's no audience for this and it's a computer telling them based on data but it's yet stuff comes out if I can't believe baby reindeer was adolescence that a network that relies a streaming service I guess they'll never hire me again relies on an algorithm let those shows that then became huge and they're not realizing oh Maybe we don't need to imagine adolescents being put through an algorithm. Mm-hmm. Of course what that an algorithm would say no one wants to watch them They like that so Yeah, it's a little bit weird. It's very weird right now. It's very weird. I'm glad. I'm not 20 offense to 20-year-olds, but or 24 I'm glad as an actor. I'm not starting up right now because it's It's a little scary. Do you encourage people to do it? What do people ask you like can you make a living as it's? Yeah, I tell them if there's anything else you want to do do it do the other thing really that's what I tell young people want to be journalists That's so funny. They say that but why are we so why is it like it worked out like we're okay? Because I didn't want to do anything else more than I wanted to do this like I love what I do and that doesn't mean But if I I've gone and spoken at acting classes universities, and I've said you know Do you have anything else? Do you you know if someone's like I love interior designing as well? I'm like, oh, did you should do that if acting is the only thing you want to do if there's nothing else You're like I can't see any other light God go just go toward the acting light But if there's anything else it's just it's just hard It's just hard and you will you got a fight and you got to stand up for yourself all the same stuff You know, it's just it's not easy and the business is getting harder Patrick we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers. What's the last great thing they've seen? You mentioned the invite why did I say the invite should have said that you're gonna have to go back to something before that I think okay, so you mentioned you're a horror fanatic. That's why and It's a movie that I think Took off got huge and then anything we get to use this a significant backlash to it as well I saw it opening weekend. I saw it before and I took my wife hates horror my daughter loves horror And I took my wife because I'd read the reviews and I'm like I think this is special This is not what you think it is and she fucking loved it. We all three loved it. Yeah, I feel like it did across that Rubicon of non horror likeers got interested in it because there's two scenes that are hard maybe but otherwise It's just you know, and it's well directed. It's well written. It's well acted. It's it's great It's great. But by the way, I should say that this I were big on showing my daughter movies in this weekend We showed her money ball and memento. Wow. What did she think of those? Loved memento. She said maybe one of the favorite movies she's ever I had to she hasn't been Nolan She hasn't been and she's going to Odyssey this weekend with us So I said to her. Let me show you let's start without the following let's start at the beginning. Yeah, and She just was absolutely blown away the big leap from memento to the Odyssey I know. Sorry. You missed the one between. Yeah, and we'll get back to it. She'll get to it I just it felt like the right time to show her that and you know and and money ball We went through 25 25. I was looking through and I'm like, which by the way I laughed. I'm on two of them What's the second one? Someone's got to get of course. Of course. How can I ask you about bull? Yeah, well that maybe that's why you're sitting here You're an icon of this show as well. I'm 10% you've been Incredibly generous to your time and and your candor. I appreciate you speaking honestly about your your working career Thank you. I thank you guys for doing this show because it really does It means a lot. Thanks Patrick. Thank you Thanks to Patrick for sharing his life. What a great chat. Thanks to the listeners for your questions today Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production support later this week We are talking about Jane shone brunt's fascinating new feature teenage sex and death. I can't be asthma with several very special guests. See you then You