The Art of Radio Storytelling: Insights from Valerie Geller

Radio creators, inspiring community and small scale commercial radio. Hello, I'm Steve Randall and welcome to Radio Creators. Back in the studio this week, after the excitement of being in Cardiff for the last episode, where we talked about community engagement and the importance of being a part of those big community events. This episode sort of carries on the theme of engagement, but we're talking about the very basic tool of radio. Storytelling, communication, connection with an audience. I have somebody who has been talking about this and just absolutely nailing it for years. She's the author of a book called Beyond Powerful Radio and audio communicators guide to the digital world, news talk information and personality for podcasting and broadcasting. It's the updated third edition of the book, which is out now. And, wow, just very excited to speak to her so over to Valerie. My name is Valerie Geller and I work to train talent and communicators for podcasting, broadcasting. And it even branches out to people who work in other fields, but also maybe speak a lot or need to engage audiences. And it's all about telling the truth, making it matter, and never be boring. And I worked in the early days with LBC Radio 25 years ago. And then I got to work with the BBC for seven or eight years and just had an amazing time. And now I'm running around training people. Basically, we have techniques that work to help people become more powerful communicators. They work in any language in any country because it's really not about radio. It's about human struggle and how to help people get through their days and how to inform and entertain and inspire and persuade people and just keep people company through audio media. And it is my passion and my love. And I just feel so honored I get to do it. Well, I mean, it's a fantastic thing to do. And your book Beyond Powerful Radio, it's the new edition, an audio communicators guide to the digital world, will help people to understand what is at the heart of it the most important thing about radio. I've said many times when talking about different elements of radio, that we love the stuff that involves playing our favorite songs or pressing the buttons or listening to the jingles. And all of that sort of stuff we like. But at the heart of radio is storytelling and that human connection. And we know some fantastic broadcasters who do that. I mean, here in the UK, one that always springs to mind is something like Terry Wogan, who was just an amazing broadcaster. And worldwide, they're a great broadcasters. One time I saw a piece of research on Terry. And it was like the Mount Everest of research. When I saw it, I thought, my dream is now to have every presenter and every talent I work with get this type of a response as a personality. Here's what it said. We book our holidays when we know Terry is booking his holidays because we don't want to be in England if we can't listen to Terry in the morning. Wow. I mean, yeah. I mean, that speaks to the magnitude of the man and the broadcasters. And the thing was, Terry Wogan was so understated in the way that he broadcasts. He wasn't sort of, he was a big personality without being over the top. And I think that was, that was just genius. He really did get that one to one thing. I mean, a quote that I'm sure you've heard, Valerie, you know, we won't make this whole episode about Terry Wogan, but he is just one of the greatest communicators on radio and TV that we ever had. There was a quote that somebody said when they asked Terry Wogan, how many listeners do you have? And he said, only one. I love that. You know, really you should do the same show for one person as you would for a million. And I think that the magic of Terry was authenticity. The magic of Terry was that every single person, even though he might be a total stranger to a lot of people, they felt they could go down to the corner pub and have a beer with Terry. And they felt they knew him. And in fact, the highest praise you ever will get when you're on the radio or doing a podcast is when a total stranger comes up to you and says, you know, I never met you, but I feel like I know you because I've listened to you or you on the air. Yeah. And that does happen. You do get that connection. And I think that's so important. And that's almost another quick takeaway for people that actually do every show with the same effort that you do your favorite show because you don't know who's listening. And it matters to those people who are. And so, you know, you don't really do a show on the radio. Or you shouldn't do a show on the radio that you're just phoning it in. You know, you should be putting in the same effort and making sure you're delivering every single time because it does matter to the people on the other end. You know, Cindy Lover had a story about she walked into a bar late at night in a hotel. And the bar was completely empty and it was very close to closing time. And there was a singer at the piano playing like to no one. And as soon as she saw Cindy Lover and she didn't know who she was, as soon as she saw Cindy Lover, she started a song. And Cindy said that woman sang her heart out for one person. And she never forgot the lesson that you should give 100%. Every day, every show, every time you open the microphone. Because number one, you never know. And number two, it matters. Yeah. And it absolutely does. And people have different views on radio as to whether it is part of entertainment, part of the show business, you know, world. And I always think it is in the sense that that doesn't mean you have to be an over the top performer. But it does mean that you are delivering something to entertain, to inform, to connect with other people. And I think that's where the work that you do in your book, Valerie, is so important because at the heart of that, for radio in particular, is storytelling. Because, you know, we don't have the visuals. What we do have is the power of words. And the way that those words are constructed, how we put them across the words we use, the words that we don't use, the pauses we leave in between. All of those things go to make great radio. It's true. We have better pictures because we have the pictures in the imagination. And it's an amazing thing. It's why the book is usually better than the movie. If I say to you, we've got a pink elephant, and he's about to fly, you know, over the Empire State Building. If I'm on radio, I can just tell you that there's a pink elephant. And look up there, he's about to fly over the Empire State Building with his little wings, you know, and his little outfit on. If you work in television, you actually have to produce an elephant. Or now with AI, you've got to put up a fake elephant and people can tell. So again, right now, I just think we have better pictures. And when you talk about storytelling, every single human being on earth can become a better storyteller. Not everybody is a great storyteller, but we can all learn techniques to make you a better storyteller. And when I wrote my first book, the way that I really had learned how to do radio was by trial and error. And if you made a mistake and failed, you got sacked, and you had to go get another job, and you learned a lesson. If you succeeded, usually you got better offers, and you packed up and moved and went to another station. And again, it was a big upheaval. It would have saved me 10 years if I would have had a book of just what to do and what not to do, and how to get and grow audiences. And so I actually contacted a bunch of people that I worked with, and everybody contributed, and we wrote that book. And now it's in a third edition, and it's just really exciting to be able to put this work in the world and really offer people techniques to focus their topics, engage audiences, ways to state opinion and position so that you're not going to polarize people, but you're going to create interesting thought and discussion. And finally, the storytelling and leaving your audience with talkable topics so that when the radio or the podcast goes off, they can talk to each other and become more interesting. You add to people's life because you're on the air doing your show. You give something. Now we always say, imagine every listener has a bucket, and they're holding it in front of you. What chunks of solid gold are you putting in their bucket today? Did you tell them something new? Did you make them feel connected to life? Did you make them laugh? Did you give them a better understanding of the world around them? Did you connect your audience to community if somebody is feeling alone, you know, and isolated, and they're lonely, and suddenly they push a black button, and you're not alone anymore. You've got somebody right there with you. And finally, inspiring people. These are dark days in the world, and we need every ounce of inspiration. I think the music does that, and humor does that, and just plain old human connection and good company does that. Yeah, I mean, that that so beautifully put. And this comes back to something which is kind of one of the pillars of this podcast is that, you know, I always say you have to know who your audience is. And that's not just that broad brushstroke of it's everybody in the community because it's going to be more defined than that. It's going to be more focused than that if you're going to be successful, and if you're really going to resonate with anybody at all, what you're describing there, those elements of knowing who you're broadcasting to and being able to relate to them, and being able to communicate stories and pick the time. topics and say the things that will resonate with them, that has to start with knowing who they are. In a sense, you know, anyone can switch the radio on at any time and we don't know necessarily who they are. If you're targeting your station and your show towards particular people, particular demographics, you have an idea and as good an idea as you can possibly get about who they are, that makes telling them stories much easier. Well, certainly from the angle, you know, I believe there are no boring stories, only boring story tellers. I also believe interest is interesting. If you have an interest, you can make anything on the planet interesting. But if you're bored, it's boring and the thing listeners tell us they hate is when it sounds like and now another topic manufactured to fill a slot on my show, they don't like that. They want to feel like they're just connecting with a person. And so we encourage our presenters and producers to observe life and filter what they see through their own creative process and tell those stories, things that mean something to them. And you know, if you make it matter, it's going to matter to the audience. There was a survey of, you know, what all human beings always care about. And it went across many, many, many countries and the UN was part of it. And it was a really interesting study and they found that every human being on the planet wanted to have a healthy body. They wanted to feel safe in the world. They wanted a better world for their children than they had for themselves. They wanted joy and laughter in their life. They wanted some say so over how they lived and where they lived. They wanted to have decision making ability about where they worked and how they worked. They wanted to have opportunity. Every single human being, every single one of them wanted to feel that their lives mattered and had some importance. And so if we can understand that as broadcasters, we can better serve a mass audience because the personal is universal. And if you feel it, the audience is going to feel it. The only thing I would add to that and going back to the point of targeting is that if your station is kind of playing older music, for example, you're not going to get the kids tuning in. However, good a story teller you are. But in that sense, although it's broadcasting, it is it is targeted broadcasting on most stations. But certainly, you know, being able to tell those stories that resonate with most people, you know, not making it too narrow, I think is brilliant. And to pick up on what you were saying earlier about using your own personal experiences, I think what's so good about that is you've instantly got something that's unique in so much as it's something that's happened to you and something you can talk about with absolute credibility because you were there. It was you. You were involved. But you know, when you get those stories that they are your stories, but they are things that happen to lots of other people, that's brilliant. That's where comedians do really well with observational comedy, you know, and they pick up on stuff and we all go, yeah, that always happens. You know, those things are so much better than just picking another story out of a newspaper or picking something on a website that everybody has already talked about. Right. We want to be an original personality. And, you know, with AI, they're coming for you. You know, AI can literally search and scrape the web for every single piece of information. So, AI can take the information, but they can't take you and your take on the story, your perspective, what's happened to you in your life? How do you feel about this thing that happened? You know, and again, it's not radio. It's the struggle to be human and how to help audiences get through their day. You know, and in the book, beyond powerful radio, it's kind of a cookbook for how to do that. It really lets people know step by step by step. If you try this, if you storytelling in this way, here's a lot of ideas and methods. It put it before you like a big buffet, try these things and see if they work for you. Could you use some extra content for your radio show or station? Perhaps there are topics you'd love to cover, but you just don't have the time. Airspace is launching in January to provide free, professionally produced audio features that you simply download and play on air. Some of them will be available to add your own sponsor to, providing revenue opportunities. There'll be content on a range of topics, but the first in January will be a series of new year, new U features. Bringing your listeners great life coaches and well-being experts just as demand for this type of content peaks. Get these features for your station free. Find out more at airspaceaudio.com. Click the link in the show notes. Have you ever wondered why someone gets in to radio? Have you ever wondered what buzz they get out of it? Well, have you listened to radio crates yet? It is my podcast presented by myself, Luke Davis, where every ever week you can catch me chatting to a fellow radio presenter about their life story on The Wireless from Get In The Bug. And I was amazed at how this music was having such a profound effect on everybody to their first ever show. The very very first link I ever did, or on Viking by myself in a studio. It was ABC all of my heart. The high points. You could be the princess of Wales, one of the most famous people in the world, if not the most famous, and yet what excited her was having a request on the radio. And maybe the low points. I kind of gained the reputation at Radio 1, I think I'm on people, as the guy who was using Radio 1 to get into touch. Well, do you fancy joining the adventure? Why not download Radio Brates now from wherever you get your podcast from? Radio creators. Helping floor radio stations to think big. If your telling stories, and again, we can reference Terry Wogan, you know, very, very good story teller would would be very relatable in what he said. But he wouldn't talk hugely necessarily about himself and his life. And there's kind of a fine balance, I would guess, isn't there, between talking too much about yourself, particularly if you're not a celebrity. Celebrities can get away with it because people know and that's probably what they're interested in the celebrity saying, you know, less interested when celebrities start talking about politics or, you know, whatever it may be. But if you're just an average woman on the radio talking about her life, yes, that's good, but does it relate to the audience? I believe that there's nothing you can't say on Radio if you make it personal, but not private. And I'll give you the method. You use the word you instead of I, me, we, us, our, our, our, let's. You talk to one person and you use the word you, have you ever, can you imagine? I'll give you an example. This was a story of a female disjockey in New York who told the most personal story I have ever heard on the radio. And yet it was not private. She was single and she had been dating and that night she was going to go on a blind date. And after the date she went on the air until the story. You try on every single outfit in your cupboard because you want to look great for this guy. Could he be the one you get to the pub early? He's there early. He smiles. He has beautiful smile in your eyes, meet. Your heart skips a beat. You sit down and you talk. You agree on music and architecture and art and whether you like dogs or cats. You're talking three hours of gone by and now you're sitting down to dinner. It was just supposed to be a beer. You get up to go to the bathroom and you're so excited. You turn around and that's when your heart sinks. He's getting the waitresses phone number. That's great. So it's used to reward you instead of weep me. I asked our and we talk a lot about this in the book that if you can make things visual tell the truth make it matter never be boring. Speak visually. Talk to one listener at a time like Terry was would always say talk to that one listener and that's the most important thing. You know it's not all of you those of you many of you. It's if you are a man or you are a woman if you have kids if you don't have kids you're still going to want to know they're talking about corporal punishment back in schools. You know you you actually talk to each individual personally because that's the magic of our medium and then the last thing for powerful radio and this is the most important method before you put your finger on a red button and go to air. You answer the question Steve why should I listen to this or here's why you need to listen to this and then hit the button. Yeah I mean that is a really crucial part of going from just doing radio to actually really crafting it creating it doing something that that matters something that resonates because if you put those checks and balances in place and just you know for people listening we're talking about people who are on community radio we're talking about people who you know this is not their profession and so you're not going to get this from the first time you go into a radio studio and do a show it's something that comes over time and this is why I always say to people you need to listen back to your shows you need to record them and you need to listen back. You know I have an air check criterion and we listen back to the audio. because it's the only way. It's like looking in the mirror. It's better to do it with another person and it's better to do it with an old show so that you don't remember what you meant to say. You're listening with fresh ears like a listener. And there's a checklist. Did anything go too long? Did you introduce the audience to characters they care about? Was it boring? What were the visuals? How did this matter? What was new? What was unique? Do I know you from hearing the show? But was it not all about you? Was it about the listener? Did it engage? Did the time go quickly or did it seem to drag? And it takes it out of the-- you think it's crap, but I think it's great. It gives you the very, very specifics. And if you don't have visuals, well, radio is a blind medium. So if you're saying, hey, did you see the beautiful sunset? But maybe next time you can say, Tangerine sky. You can use words to paint the picture. Maybe that's better and you can work on it. So I have a self-check list and an air check list. And I give it to everybody because I believe every single human being on Mike, you can get better. You can grow your show. You can grow audience. And you can hone your craft as well as your art form. Because otherwise, why are you doing this? You know, yeah, OK. You might say, well, I'm doing it because I enjoy doing radio and I want to do some radio. But you'd want to do it the best you possibly can, the same as if you weren't fishing. You'd want to do that the best you can. You didn't waste your time in a riverbank all day for nothing. Although people do do that and they enjoy it. Well, that's fine. But if you're saying, well, I'm here to broadcast to the community and make a difference. Again, either of those reasons, whether it's just for your own enjoyment or whether you're really genuinely trying to engage an audience and serve an audience, why would you not want to get better? Why would you not want to learn techniques and learn from yourself? That's the interesting thing about doing the air checks is you learn from yourself because you hear yourself doing things. You think, I don't like that. I wouldn't do that next time. And you get better and you get better and you get better. Well, the other part, too, is really important to remember why you loved radio. Most people who do radio listen to it and they enjoyed it and they were inspired by it. Or they heard people who weren't very good and they secretly thought, you know, I bet I could do that. And they had a little voice inside going, I could probably do that. And some things triggers a switch in people who suddenly, you know, it's like the sun comes out and they see this way of expressing themselves creatively. And so a lot of the work I do is just, you know, let's go from black and white to color. Let's maximize your talent. Let's hone your skills. Let's help you tell better stories. You know, start your stories with, you know, instead of with attribution of who said it, start it with what happened or what's in it for a listener. And always remember you're serving the audience. Public service radio. I mean, this is really service. And we are serving people. I think it's also really important to remember what brought you to the fair. Why did you come to radio? Why do you love it? Because it really is magic. And I think if you understand what it feels like, being alone in a room or alone in a car and hitting the button and you're not alone, and you have joy and music and interesting conversation and the time goes quickly and you feel connected. That's kind of magical. And it's a real gift we as broadcasters give the audience. Yeah. And I think, you know, we were talking about community radio and some of the communities that station serve are very small. And I think when you were talking about using you instead of I, in a similar way, you know, can you, not in a clunky way, but can you relate the story to the local area or to, I mean, it may not be a geographic community. It could be a community of interest. But can you relate it back to that as well? So as well as relating it to the listener, you're also relating it to the location or the community that you're serving. I think that is another great quality, a trick if you like, that you can do just to make it even more relatable. And that's such a key word is making things relatable. So people get it. They understand it. And they're in some way touched by it, you know, amused by it, whatever it may be, shocked by it. I mean, any kind of emotion is good, right? - Well, I believe you should be able to put any topic to the so what test, so what, you know? And if you can't answer so what, well, here's why. If you can't defend it, ask yourself, is it relevant? Does it matter? Do you care? And how are you going to make a listener care? How are you adding to someone's life by talking about this? Are you going to make them laugh? Give them new information, inspire them, persuade them. What are you going to give? And you know, just plain old entertain. What's your purpose for talking about this? And in community radio, one of the things that I really love is working with very earnest people who work in community radio, who have a mission. You know, they're almost like zealots. You know, they have a mission, they have a purpose, they have a cause, whether it's to protect a language or a certain edge of government or whatever, their area is. And so now it becomes, how do you storytelling around it, giving them the techniques to create interesting radio and interesting programming that even someone who wasn't interested in this would pay attention to it? The hallmark of a great talent, any great talent, is they can get you to care about something. You didn't care about one minute ago. A great disjockey can get you to listen to a piece of music, you never would even think about. In America, we had a guy, KC case of who could get you to listen to anything, anything. Even if you didn't like that kind of music, you would listen to it because the way KC introduced it and made you care about it, because he found a way in to care about it. And I think that's really the secret sauce of all of it. There are no boring stories, only boring storytellers, nothing in life is boring. So whether it is very, very detailed to the community, I mean, I just heard a whole radio show about potholes and road repair. And it was the funniest thing I have ever heard. This woman was talking about this whole thing about having to navigate, holding a hot drink in one hand and driving in the other and wet and sued. And everybody was talking about this little tiny stretch in a very, very small town where they had been promising forever. And they kept reallocating the funds to other things that came up because there were emergencies and they just never got around to fixing this particular patch of road. And everybody had a story. And it was terrific radio. And you would never think that. I heard a show about a local funeral parlor. The presenter asked the guy, what's the story? You tell it 11.30 at night at a party when you've had a half a bottle of wine. And the guy told a story about how there was this very, very formal funeral with a-- it had been a dignitary and it was a horse-drawn cart and a marching band. And they were going on this very old road. And all of a sudden, basically, the gist of this story was old road, bad cart, bad wheel. And the cart tipped over and the casket slid down the hill, the embankment. And because it had happened, it was actually in the UK. And people in England are very stoic. The marching band kept playing and the Paul Beres just marched down and took the casket. They rited the cart, put the casket back on the cart, and on went the funeral, carry on. And it was the funniest thing I've ever heard. And when I understood the promo for the show, the trailer for it was a conversation with a mortuary director. And I rolled up my eyes and went, oh, no, that's going to just be terrible. And it wasn't. It was terrific. They said, why is it that an urn when somebody gets cremated is 600 pounds? You could just go to IKEA and get something for two pounds. Why are you sure? It was a fantastic conversation. And it was about life and people. And it was as local as local could be. But it was so much fun because it was real life, Steve. And that's what we want to do. We want to hold up the mirror and reflect real life, real people. Yeah, I love that. And then taking those, what could be very serious and frankly, quite dull conversations of being able to elevate them in that way, usable of humor, whatever it may be that's appropriate. It's just brilliant. Because I'm laughing at that story. A tragic story in many ways from the people involved. But my goodness, it's funny when someone's telling that story, everyone's laughing at it when they're hearing the story. That's what story telling is about, isn't it? It's having that connection and making people care. The other sort of a secret sauce and all in this is genuine curiosity and deep listening. So instead of listening just enough so that you can ask your next question or you can say the next brilliant thing, listen to what people are saying, but also listen to what they're telling you behind the words and be genuinely curious. And being curious is your superpower as a broadcaster. Why? How is it like this? Tell me more. All these things are your superpowers and then true listening. I could already tell Steve, you're a wonderful listener. And that's part of your superpower. And the more we can develop our listening skills, the better we're going to be as broadcasters. And you know what? Some of the best interviews I've ever heard have been from community radio people. Because they don't think necessarily like broadcasters. They think like people. And more broadcasters need to think like people rather than broadcasters. Because then they ask the questions that the average person ask. and that's great. - It's a real conversation. You know what I'm saying? I have this list of questions that my producer put together, and I have to get to all of them. No. If a conversation like a river takes a different tributary, it's like taking a scenic route. You have your vacation all mapped out in the car, but then you see a sign that says scenic route, and you take a left turn and you go on the scenic route. A great interview has those scenic routes. They have the left turns that are off the, if you can follow those up, you can get amazing, amazing stories out of people. - Yeah, I love that. It's like every time you find a pub or a restaurant or a little cafe or something that you didn't know was there. I mean, those things are wonderful and conversations can and should be like that. You don't absolutely know where it's going. It just hopefully ends up somewhere wonderful. And if it's not going in the right direction, you can change that direction. - That's the great thing. - That comes back again to those listening skills that are so important, because if you're listening and thinking, "I'm bored with this," don't think, "Well, I'll ask this next question in a minute." Just change the conversation there and then. - Please write that in neon for every community radio broadcaster. If you start to have an out-of-body experience when you're interviewing somebody, you're bored. It's boring. Stop, stop now. Talk about these things else. Change it. Kick them out. Don't be the nice polite, British wonderful person that you are, lovely matters. No, this isn't the place. This is not the place for lovely matters. This is the place for, if you're bored, it feels long, they're going on a bit. You have to stop it because it's better to be a little bit rude to one guest than rude to thousands of people who are giving you the most precious thing on God's earth, which is their time. And by the way, if you are boring, you're not going to have those listeners. They're going to zone out or they're going to tune out if they are bored. So if you are bored, believe me, so is your listening audience. So again, you have to be merciless. And just as you would in normal conversation, just change the subject. And you can even say, don't mean to be rude, but moving on. And there are ways to do it. And you have to seize it because you are God and king or queen of your show. And you have to wrap your arms around it and protect it from being boring. That is wonderful and a great place to end our conversation. The book is available now. It's called Beyond Powerful Radio, an audio communicators guide to the digital world, news talk information and personality for podcasting and broadcasting. Valerie Geller, thank you for being on Radio Creators this time. Steve, thank you so much. I enjoy that conversation. I could have talked to Valerie all day. She's got so much to share. And you can find her online. Just search for Valerie Geller, connect with her on Blue Sky, on Twitter, go to her website, get the book, all of that and more. And while you're doing things, don't forget to subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite podcast app. You can also get our newsletter free radiocreators.com or the details are on there. And we would love to hear your inspiration, your thoughts, your insights, the best practice that you can share with community radio and small-scale commercial radio in the UK and beyond. We would love to hear from you. There's an audience waiting to hear what you're doing well. The things that you have learned from your radio experience, the projects, the initiatives, the programming that you're doing differently. Maybe you have great examples of telling stories and connecting with an audience. I'd love to be talking to you on this podcast very soon. Get in touch by radiocreators.com. And until next time, thanks for listening.