The Art of Malicious Compliance with Ann Aguirre

Hello, hello, welcome to Novel Finds, a podcast place for diverse voices and good books. I'm your host Julia and our author today is Anne Aguirre. Hello everyone. So for those of you who don't know Anne, she's published about 50 books across many genres for both adults and YA, such as I think I'm in love with an alien, the only purple house in town, the Jack's series, the honor series, and literally so many more. When not writing, she loves video games, Korean dramas, music, dogs and cats, and staring at the sea. And today we are chatting about her newest novel, the Hocus Pocus Handbook. So without further ado, welcome Anne, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for hosting me today Julia. I appreciate the opportunity. Absolutely. Thanks for coming on. I really enjoyed the magical elements in the Hocus Pocus Handbook. So I'm really excited to talk about it. But first things first, if you could use a spell from Mudge's Grimoire, which one would you use? I thought about that for quite a while. And since I am not a cosmetics girly, I would love to use a spell for gilding and glamour where all I have to do is the soap and water and the little ritual. And then I would come out with a complete blow up and I would be my best self and everyone would think that I look amazing, even though all I did was wash my face. That would be amazing for me, which is kind of ironic because my daughter is a certified makeup artist. So she is a cosmetics girly. Yeah, this beautiful young woman come from she did not learn any of these skills from me. Oh my goodness. So does she like go on tour with you? She does your your looks or anything? No, she lives in Canada. Ah, okay. Well, that might be a bit hard done, right? Because you're not in in Canada. I assume. Are you in Canada? I live near Canada. So we're close enough to visit. But no, she has her own work to do and I'm just kind of amazed at her skills. Yeah, no, it definitely takes an artist hand to do makeup one on yourself and then on another person. It's wild. Like people are so talented. I love it. So can you give a brief synopsis of the Hocus Pocus Handbook and a bit about yourself? Yeah, of course. As you mentioned, I have written a lot of books. I was first published in 2008 with Grim Space and I have been publishing ever since coming up on my 20 year anniversary, which is kind of wild. Because I obviously books don't usually sell the same year they they published. So I first sold New York in 2007. So next year it'll be the 20 year anniversary of my first professional sale. I have a degree in English literature. I have grown children at this point. And I've been writing pretty much my entire life. And like you already stated, I have a huge back list. But I do have to say that the Hocus Pocus Handbook just has such a special place in my heart. And I think it's because it was a book that I really had to dig deep for to find the brightness and the hope and the belief that the world can become better. And if you make unconventional choices, if you don't walk the path that has maybe been set forth for you, if you if you do some groundbreaking and some trailblazing and you go off road in a sense that maybe once you push past the brambles, there's going to be something beautiful waiting. So with that, can you give us a brief synopsis of Hocus Pocus Handbook? Yes, the synopsis is essentially that there is a lot of tension and conflict in the feroam between the houses of winter and summer. And the who is the heroine finds herself in a unique position due to some abilities that she has, which are not typical for someone who was born in the feroam. And so she is in the unfortunate role of playing peacemaker due to those same abilities and that makes her very valuable to the ruler of the winter court because he does essentially use her as a tactical advantage. She uses her as an asset, not as a person and she is forced into an arranged marriage, I guess you would call it, but her spouse does a runner and she is forced to hunt that person down in order to prevent a war between the realms and hijinks and sue and there's a lot of found family dynamics. And I think it's just a lot of fun, a ton of fun to read. It is a lot of fun. Do you have a favorite line or excerpt that you'd be willing to share? Yeah, absolutely. I thought about that a lot and it's one from near the end when you come to the toward the end of her emotional journey, the end. And it's to love someone else truly madly, deeply, you have to love yourself first. Yeah, yeah, and I think the it is a dual POV. I think both of them really come to that conclusion by the end, which is nice. With the darker themes that you've got going on, there is a theme of isolation, which happens and is quite prevalent with the and with the other narrative. Are we revealing the other narrative or no? Yes, we can. Yeah, okay. How do you say his name? Because I actually couldn't figure it out. Yes, Kerbros. So between thea and Kerbros, they're both very isolated characters, but they have two very different reactions to the world. Kerbros is, he houses a lot of anger. He self isolates, but then he has like his own way to express himself when he's by himself, whereas thea is surrounded by others. And she is kind of like the eternal sunshine that happens. And even though like inside she feels very lonely because she came from the human world and there aren't any other changelings near her or anyone with her powers. What kind of things did you want to explore with these narratives that come from the same place, but then they branch into different directions? One thing that I've always been interested in is, I don't know if you've had this experience as well, but you may know two siblings who grew up in the exact same environment. And one of them becomes an artist and lives a very unconventional life. And the other one is a lawyer. And they have chosen like all of the things that society would say, this is how you succeed. This is how you get ahead. And but they had the exact same influences. They grew up in the same environment. They had the same examples and role models. So I've always been really interested in and exploring the impact of personality and preferences. And it's exactly as you mentioned, because they were both raised under kind of traumatic circumstances. She chooses to be a really happy person and she chooses to try and put good back into the world as much as she can, even though she does kind of struggle with you mentioned with feeling very lonely and kind of cut off and not part of the collective like everything that applies to fairy doesn't necessarily apply to her because she is treated from a very young age as an asset. Or something to be dealt with. I want to avoid spoilers, but there's one little flashback. Oh, yeah, absolutely. About a conversation she overheard about her that is just kind of heartbreaking because she's like, I have known people that were more concerned about rehoming a cat. Then we're shown like then is shown to the in that particular scene in terms of Kerberos his, his angst is very much darker because he is living with a truth that again, I'm avoiding spoilers. So I can't really go too much into his backstory, but I'll just say that it is quite dark and tragic. And he has understandable reasons to be a thunder cloud. And it's it is kind of exacerbated by his his tendency to. To be grim and stoic and pessimistic, but at the same time he's also internalized a lot of self-loathing because he was a child when certain events took place and he was completely powerless and him feeling powerless is a theme that has persisted Pretty much up until he is sent away with the Yeah, yeah, I enjoy their journey together because I think they both kind of they do learn more about each other I actually really enjoyed the the chapters in Kerberos' point of view and it's something that I would like Mentioned to my spouse would be like, "Gah, I just really like this because it's it's we can cut it out if this is a spoiler But I just love how down bad he is for Thia Because like you'd never know I don't think that's a spoiler because um When I'm doing my marketing, I do say like so much pining. There's so much, you know in some marketing materials It's like, you know, he falls first. Yeah, it's really not a spoiler He has had a thing for her like she has been his little sunshine angel He has just enjoyed watching her stick it to his disgusting cousin Like she has always Done the very least she can do To get away with yes Like messing the ruler of winter around if she can get in his way like she does it But just enough that he can't get rid of her because he does need her due to her unique skills that So she has been kind of in your facing this terrible person and giving um Kerbos so much vicarious satisfaction like oh look look she did it again I think it's natural that he just sort of first he admires her and then he falls for her And of course she has no idea because he's busy being the silent terrifying night Yeah, he's busy brooding in the shadows like literally But yes, just his his POV it's just so into Thia that I was like Just really love it when a male character drinks the I love my wife juice even though they're not married and like they're not in a relationship It's just there's something about it where I'm just like this is excellent. This is exactly how I want all relationships to be in terms of just absolute adoration and Thea being like a little prankster and Full of malicious compliance and full of just like these weird ideas about things is just Of course, that's the person that he chooses to just be obsessed with because she's wild and he is very restrained Yeah, and I love that about their relationship dynamic like my whole brain lit up when you said malicious Compliance because I was like yes Well, nation mark that is so thea like if there is a way that she can do exactly what she's been told to do and make it worse for the people in power like she will A thousand percent do that. Yeah, she just needs that like on the front of a shirt and call it a day Okay, so What made you want to start each chapter? So between the the POVs when it was a Thea chapter it always started with an excerpt of Mudge's Grimwar and With like a Kerberos chapter it started with a description of like artwork done by an unknown artist and Slowly you do like become to know the artist a bit more just through this unnamed artist how Did using this kind of help with the preceding chapters? Well the concept was always going to be that it was a spell book that was written by a father for his beloved daughter and so I actually did do Research on actual which spells like I ordered reference books from secondhand bookstores and Like there was the one of the little books I got had actually has a section where you can write like physically write your own spells And they teach you how to craft them so And the spell book that I chose is actually Supposed to be fairy magic and it's from an actual practitioner So these are literally spells that people could do like I don't promise any results, but these are literally no Okay, um I researched and What I wanted was to deepen their relationship and to show How very much he loves this little girl who Others saw as a burden or an obligation, but for Mudge She is the center of his world and someone he loves more than life itself and I wanted to really show that aspect Where like biology just doesn't matter like so for all the people that have chosen their family or who have been adopted Or have been fostered. I really just wanted them to see a relationship like this and for them to be seen and and yes That is your dad. Yes, that is your mom. That is your parent and they love you so much that they chose you They chose to be with you they chose to care for you and That's kind of what I wanted to bring with the spells And then like to be really blunt. I couldn't just leave kerbos is chapters naked So I had like I was giving fair enough. I was giving so much care to the uh that I had to give The same amount of care to kerbos So I thought about like if he could do anything he wanted and I don't think this is like a huge spoiler At his heart he is a tortured artist. Yes, he is So in order to bring out more of his personality I thought okay I need to put his struggle on the page his feelings his emotions everything he's repressed and I need to do it as if he were like producing a portfolio Like if he was curating his own show and writing descriptions of each piece Or if he wanted a gallery to be interested in his work This is what he would do So I just imagined him like trying to describe the unknown artist Without naming himself because he would get in trouble with his disgusting cousin If it was known that he was doing something that he even slightly enjoyed Because the cruelty is the point Right yeah, so it's like very restrained but it's also All of his repressed passion his longing his loneliness and it's just really meant to kind of Almost do like a compare and contrast because where thea has always had much in her corner worrying about her and taking care of her and making her porridge And giving the tools that she needs to not fear the world that she's sworn to And I mean also thea's story is also kind of a naturalization story About feeling like you don't belong to the place that you have migrated to So there's some allegory there as well But um in terms of carbureaus he is certainly Almost like the control element like this is what becomes of someone who has no one And instead of being able to go to bloom outward You curl inward Yeah, yeah, and the fact that You know he does do this artwork, but it's all kind of hidden in places I think around his bedroom Uh is is kind of what it seemed like with all of the different descriptions is just it's hidden But if you look at it properly you can see it, but also there's just this Because it's carving he kind of can get his aggression out there as well So tortured artist doing scenes of things that have really stuck with him But also like carving it into the wall Is impressive and definitely very curbureus Did you know that you can support novel finds on patreon patreon provides a space for artist To sustain ourselves by connecting us directly with our own communities Being a patron also comes with special perks like podcast merch And there is quite a backlog of many episodes, book reviews and more Spanning from the beginning of novel finds Join our bookish community and become a patron today by going to patreon p-a-t-r-e-o-n.com/novelfinespod And now back to the show So do you have a favorite character and is this the same as who you would be if you were in the book? - Oh no, you asked the dreaded, do you have a favorite question? As a parent and a writer, I am not allowed to answer this question because I love all of them the same, but in different ways. At like her roast is my torture lonely artist who I would love to very much give a hug. And Thia is the person that I would like to go on a wild adventure with. She's the person, the friend who will always have your bail money at the end. And if she doesn't, she will be beside you and jail. You've heard that saying, right? A good friend, a good friend. Your best friend is sitting in the cell with you going, my God, that was fun. Thia is the person who would probably be in the cell with you actually now that I think about it. She would not have mail money. She would be in the cell with you. (Tara laughs) And Tara is just your bestie who you can call no matter what's going on. I think I'm probably not going to say too much about some secondary characters for reasons. But there is one character that I am not going to name or discuss that I very much have a soft spot for because that character is just kind of inscrutable and doing things for reasons no one can really fathom. I think it will be kind of fun if I am allowed to explore that character in a future book. - Ooh, okay. Are you saying there might be a future book, maybe? - That is, as always, up to source books. But I will say that if readers love these and they want more, they should buy it and tell their friends because I do intend to write about Zef and Olive. - Mm. - Okay. - I don't know. - Do you pick that anything between those two characters? - Oh no, 100%. Yes, it was not subtle. (Tara laughs) Yeah, I really enjoyed Olive when Olive came into the story. I'm not going to reveal who she is in the story. I just really enjoyed when she did come in. I thought that was the sweetest, sweetest moment. Like, if I knew that that was going to happen, I would have probably cried. - At all. - I did just waiting for that moment. And I was like, I did gasp. I was like, oh my gosh, it was great. It was great, Olive's lovely. But moving on, no one, you'll only learn about Olive if you read the books, I go buy it. Is there anything that you would like for readers to pick up from reading the Hocus Pocus Handbook? - I would really not have anything particular in mind. I just would want them to know ahead of time that it is a safe place to land. No matter who you are, I think that you will find that it is a safe and welcoming space and that everyone deserves love. That I guess that would be the message, actually, now that I'm talking. Everyone deserves love, period. - Period. - That's, yeah. - And as a, just a quick addendum, it doesn't have to be necessarily romantic love. Like, you deserve love from a family or from your friends, whatever you value in your life. People who are ace or a romantic, like they deserve platonic love, they deserve familial love, everyone deserves love, and they deserve whatever form or shape of love feels right to them. - Yeah, I like that. I could definitely see that from this book. Yeah, 100%. So it's unclear whether there will be another Hocus Pocus Handbook book, but there could be. Can you talk about what you're working on next? - Yeah, I can. I have three different books currently on submission. - Okay. - Tell us about all of them. - Well, actually, if you want to. - Actually, I misspoke it too. I have two currently on submission. One is contemporary romance that I would elevate or pitch as a clueless meets a star as born. - Okay. - But with a happy ending because it is a romance. - I was, okay. - I was extremely traumatized by a star as born because I went in expecting a romance movie and instead it was romance in the way that Romeo and Juliet is a romance. And that's not genre romance. That is tragic romance and I am not here for it. So I have always in my life wanted to fix that ending. And so I did. - And now is the time. And then I have a cozy mystery that is currently on submission. And then the third book is not actually on submission yet. I'm still revising it and it is kind of a dark and mildly terrifying but very twisty thriller. - Okay. Very cool. You really like going with whatever genre kind of goes with your whimsy. I take it. - I do. Unfortunately, publishers are less down with it these days. They had more patience for it like 20 years ago. But these days they're like, the last thing you published was a romanticist. So we're really looking for more romanticy. And I'm thinking, okay, but one of these days readers are gonna be like, okay, we've really rode the wave of the romanticist. So now what about the next big thing? And when the bubble pops, I feel like we need to have other. - Are the irons in the fire. - Fair enough. I mean, spread your seeds and let them grow where they may. I mean, so you've published almost 50. I assume you've written way more than that. - Oh no, I've published more than 50. It's closer to 60. - Oh yeah. - I've published closer to 60 at this point. If you asked me to teach them, I would not be able to tell you, but I think it's like 57, 58 something like that. - Oh, okay. I was like trying to count them on your website and I think I got to 48 or maybe I miscounted. - There are some pen names that are not on the name website. So if you didn't count Elem Connor Norris. - That's for the Norris. - You may not have gotten all of them. - Okay, well yeah, that's definitely what happened then I missed your pen names. I should have introduced them as well. - I'm not writing under those names anymore. - Makes sense. - There's no reason to include them, but like yes, it's closer to 60 that I have published at this point. And then I also have a serial novel that I'm writing for my newsletter subscribers. And that will come out early next year as a published novel. It's a continuation of the Galactic Love series, which is Alien Romance. I have just written so many books. - You really have. It's wild. So we'll put a link to your website in the episode description. So people can just like check out your entire back list, not including the two pen names because those ones aren't on there. - I mean, they're, I think they might be mentioned in some obscure section, but those are old. - Yeah. - Those are like from 2008, 2009. They were just kind of like experiments. I guess you could say. - Hey, that's fine. Still published, still published books. (upbeat music) (clicking) - So this is another favorites question. It is one that I ask absolutely everybody that comes on the show. What are your favorite books? - I tend to be a very eclectic reader, but that's perfect. - I do love books by Courtney Malone, Charlotte Stein, Sharon Shen is another favorite of mine. I think Beverly Jenkins is just absolutely a legend. These are all except for Sharon, who is more of a fantasy romance. Everyone I've listed is romance. Victoria Helen Stone writes kind of domestic thriller, "Flash Women's Fiction." It's a little bit blurry, but it's really good as well. She used to write romance as Victoria doll and has Switcheshawn Res, Skylodon Cameron, Lilith St. Cro, I used to read a lot of Kelly Armstrong as well. Shontel Madison is brilliant, so is Jeannie Lynn. In order to tell you what I'm reading, I would have to look at my Kindle and that's on my phone. But those are some books. - Those are people that I buy whatever it is that they have put out, I buy it immediately. - Yeah, Kate Elliott, I love Kate Elliott. Her books are amazing also. - And I don't think anyone needs me to recommend Martha Wells's Murderbot is hugely successful, so. - That's fair, yeah. - The books are super fun as well. - Yeah, I've got Murderbot actually on my bedside table. It's just waiting. for me whenever I have a free week to read a book. I was going to say also, Shontail Madison, we had her on the show a few seasons ago for the Fallen Fruit. She's very cool. She is. I was actually at her house for Fourth of July last year. Oh my gosh! Small world. Do you have a favorite independent bookstore that you'd like to shout out where listeners may be able to buy your books? Yeah, my local is Village Books in Bellingham. But this is kind of a fun story. When I was touring for I think I'm in love with an alien, I got to go to so many amazing indie bookstores. I will shout out my last release. I think I'm in love with an alien. And if you go to the acknowledgments, I list all the bookstores that I visited as part of that tour. And so if you like that kind of little quirky information, and for many of them I actually wrote part of the Hocus Pocus Handbook in those bookstores. That's, you know, I think I read that in your acknowledgments for Hocus Pocus Handbook. Yeah, oh yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Definitely check out that note in the Hocus Pocus Handbook because that's where the bookstores are listed. I just realized that I visited for I think I'm in love with an alien, but I put it in the notes for Hocus Pocus Handbook because that was the book I was writing while I was touring. Ah, I love that. Okay, so I'll put definitely a link to Village Books in the episode description, but I'll also peep back into my ebook and link all of the other bookstores that you were writing it in. Oh, that's amazing. What dedication to write to like, I think I would just be so enmeshed in like when's the event starting? What can I do? Is anything like I would not be calm enough to just sit and write. You know, well, I had no choice because I was driving. This is actually kind of a fun anecdote. I wrote some of the chapters while I was driving from stop to stop. I could open the notes app on my phone and turn on text, a voice to text, and then I would start driving and then I would just dictate the story as I was driving. Oh wow. And then when I got to a pause point, I would just like stop and then like the next time I stopped for a a rest break, I would like restart and then do a little more work. And then when I got to wherever I was going, I would copy from my notes app and then paste it into my word document and clean it up because dictation tends to be not great and you get some very funny sentences, but still having something to edit is better than like doing nothing while you're driving for five hours. So I actually got a fair amount done just while I was driving. Oh my gosh. That is so impressive. Again, my brain would not be able to do that. So I'm just endlessly just like tell me more. This is wild. I think you also have like your writing, like your schedule in the fact of your website, I think, where you're like, how do you write so many books? Well, I'll tell you how. And it's just like a really great system that you found for yourself. And I love that. I am not as much on that schedule anymore. I really probably should update my fact now that you've pointed that out. That I'm so sorry. Okay, I did use to have that as my routine, but I am in grad school now. And I also do volunteer work. So I'm constantly juggling like a volunteer schedule and then my coursework and my reading and the papers that I have to write. So like if anything, like I have everything scheduled very tightly, but it's no longer just writing fiction. I have a lot. Well, that's still very impressive. Good luck with grad school. Thank you. Sounds yeah. Going back to school is always very tough. So I wish you luck with that. We have reached a soap box moment. And this is a place where you can talk about literally anything. It doesn't have to be about your book. It can be about something happening in your life. It could be about something that is bothering you or something that you love. But what is on your mind lately? And how are you finding hope and joy amongst the chaos that is today? Well, this is actually a really great segue since you mentioned I mentioned grad school. And now you're asking about the soap box. For the last two years, I've been working as an advocate with survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault. And I am certified as an advocate for that work. And I found it so fulfilling that I made the decision to return to grad school to pursue clinical mental health counseling. Because the number one request we get from survivors is do you have a counselor on staff that I can talk to? And unfortunately, the answer is no due to funding limitations. And I thought, you know, I have always been a good listener. I have always been able to put myself in someone else's shoes. This is something that I am very well suited to do. And I thought, well, if we don't have someone to provide that service, then I'm going to go to school and get the credentials. And like, I don't know whether I will be able to be brought on staff due to funding limitations. But I can always practice and offer my services to the organization Pro Bono. We are encouraged as we we study the program to consider what we can give back to society as part of our work. And I have determined that regardless of what the funding looks like, I will offer my services to that population. Pro Bono, if there is no way that they can find it in the budget. So I want to serve the population. I want to support survivors even more than I can as an advocate. So I'm looking at a specialization in trauma and various modalities. I think this is my little soapbox moment. I think if people focused on rather than how bad the world is and how there's no hope, if people chose to focus on what can I do to give back, what can I do to make it a little better, I think things would get better like slowly, a little little by little, just by people showing each other care and concern and respect and kindness. You can't change the world, but you can change the way you respond to the world. Yeah, 100%. And everyone needs community. I think it is such a worthy cause to go back to grad school for. Congratulations. That's that's amazing. Thank you. So final question. If people want to see more from you, hear more from you, where can they find you on social media or otherwise? I am on Instagram and I am on Blue Sky. If you search my name, like I think it's anagiri.bsky.social and then it's an underscore, a giri underscore author, I believe, on Instagram. And I have a Facebook fan page, but I'm not there a whole lot, but that is facebook.com and then backslash and dot it. I will have links to all of those also in the episode description. Do you have a newsletter? You do have a newsletter because you're writing a serial. So I'll link to the newsletter as well. Awesome. Yeah. And with that and we heckin did it. We have finished our episode. Thank you so so much for chatting with me. It has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. It's been really fun. Well, we heckin did it you guys. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to rate and review the show and share it with your bookish friends and family. For more content, join our community on Patreon and follow novel finds on Instagram. Details can be found in the episode description. Thank you for being a novel friend. See y'all next time.