The Antisemitism Horseshoe

[MUSIC] >> Welcome to the commentary magazine daily podcast today is Thursday, October 29th, 26th. I'm John Pauhr, it's the editor of commentary magazine with me as always executive editor eight, Greenwald Hyabe. Hi, John. Senior editor Seth Mendel. Hi, Seth. Hi, John. Joining us today are contributing editor, host of the Breaking History Podcast columnist at the Free Press, Eli Lake. Hi, Eli. Hi, John. Eli, you informed me yesterday that I was unjust to somebody that I actually don't particularly want to be just to, but in the interest of fairness and comedy and intellectual honesty, I want you to explain what it was that I got wrong yesterday about the comments made by Pod Save America podcast, bro. John Love it about Jews, Michigan, and the LCIED Rogers race and what Jews and Michigan should do. Okay, so as I see it, or not as I see it, if you listen to the full context of his remarks, what he's saying is that the Republican Party is openly embracing racism, nativism, it's scapegoating immigrants and trans people and that historically speaking, it's only a matter of time before they scapegoat the Jews, and that this, by allowing for, or by excusing away the norm violations of like a Donald Trump, who by the way has torqued it up in ways that I don't think anyone on this podcast would say when he's been stumping for Mike Rogers, calling him by his name is Mohammed, Mohammed, Mohammed, and saying he's a jihadist and not being particularly careful, and, you know, and so there's a sort of, you know, everything that Trump says is hyperbolic, but there is an argument that if you want to take literally what he's saying, well, you know, some of this stuff from the president of the United States is just as anti-Islamic or they would say Islamophobic, has anything that Jews have an issue with in terms of whatever this anti-Zionism, anti-Semitism, and so Jews have an obligation to vote for El Sayed because they have to vote for Democrats because that's the one party that will not allow the kind of disgusting bigotries that we see in the Republican Party that just sort of standard operating procedure at this point. That was his argument. Okay, because what I had said was that he was saying you better vote for El Sayed because otherwise that he's going to come after you. So for your own safety, and in fact, someone did in this race say something very close to that, or in the mission. That's something like that. No, no, in the Michigan political Democratic Ambit, Damon Nestle, the attorney general, said Jews need to overlook issues of their own safety and vote for Abdul El Sayed. So if I was going off an imprecise or not, I didn't listen to the full context, I apologize for getting that wrong, but this gets to a very interesting larger point, which is inducing that Donald Trump will inevitably, where the Republicans will inevitably become a worse anti-Semitic force than somebody whose entire political career and his ideological history is based in what you and others have called palestinism, and that that's a very interesting play because it's not as though people at commentary dating back to 2015 and Ben Shapiro and various others were not sounding the alarm about the danger of anti-Semitism on the right. So I've experienced it in very large measure in her, in the second mention I'm going to make of her this week. Cess wife Bethany Mendel was among the top 10 recipients of anti-Semitic bilge tweeting in 2015, was then the ADL report. I was a recipient of it, but you know, Ben Shapiro was number one, Bethany was somewhere in the top 10, and all of this was coming at us, and so this was one of the reasons that we were alarmed at Trump's rise, and then, of course, we're surprised and delighted by what Trump did after the egregious Charlottesville moment that he was not, I'm sorry, not responsible for, and was-- the both was unfairly tied by the both sides and was unfairly quote unfairly tagged with it, but then he basically became the most pro-Israel president that America has ever seen and has continued being so in the second term. So however, there is, of course, Tucker Carlson, who is now no longer Republican, by the way, that's the joke here. So that's where I want to go. So we can start talking about what it is that love it's saying that is defensible, theoretically, and also why it's very wrong. Okay, so there's a couple things on that. One, the argument is somewhat discredited from love it because this week, Abdel El Sayyad's campaign did put out an ad that featured, among others, Tucker Carlson saying, you know, what he said, which was I wouldn't vote for Mike Rogers if you put a gun for my head. So you can't, on the one hand, say, you have a choice between a party that accepts Tucker Carlson, and then us-- and the way he put it was-- and then, you know, there'll be an uncomfortable debate about Israel. And I understand why a lot of American Jews would be uncomfortable with El Sayyad as part of that debate. And I get it, but this is far better than, you know, voting for the party of bigots and jackals or whatever. And, you know, again, fair enough, if you want to say that, but, you know, Sayyad is now using, in some ways, the de facto endorsement from Tucker Carlson in a campaign ad. So that's number one. And number two, I don't really see much of a difference at this point, whereas if you're going to say that there's a slippery slope where you start scapegoating minorities. And that is-- there is a truth to that, by the way, that there is an interest that Jews in diaspora has because they are a minority to make sure that, you know, we don't allow for, you know, big a tree against other minorities. And that's why so many Jews participate in civil rights. And we can go through that, you know, everybody knows that. The issue is the Democratic Party just says Israel now. And what they really mean is, you know, a lot of them really mean is Jews. So they want to try to say there's this important distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. But the way in which the Israel issue has emerged in the midterms from Democrats, especially progressive far-left socialist Democrats, is that Israel is the root of all is evil and is basically a stand-in for the standard anti-Semitic trope that goes back millennia that Jews are responsible for what you hold, you know, there are threat to what you hold dearest. And whether they're, you know, Israel is responsible, you know, the AIDS Israel is responsible for rising grocery prices, that, you know, Israel is, you know, are child killers. And all of this over the genocide, all of this hyperbole, which love it himself as part of the Pots of America. They didn't start off this way after October 7th. We should make it very clear. They were kind of normal. But over time, they got the message they understood where the audience was. They have been part of it as well. So it's not just a policy debate. I actually, I think, I don't know where you guys are. I would be fine with phasing out or cutting off the military aid to Israel. I've been saying that for more than a decade. And a lot of new conservatives, a lot of conservatives have been saying that. It's not a policy issue. It is how Israel in the debate has become the object of hatred, the, the, the root of everything that you, that is wrong with everything. So I find it to be like incredibly naive to make that argument. And it's not just love it is making it. You're now seeing it from a lot of the Democrats who are acknowledging, yeah, I got to hold my nose, but it's better than voting for Republican. And that they want to say is well, the Islamophobia is really bad against. I'll say that it's a tough choice. But I'll take this because we have to check Trump. And Trump is a force that will ultimately, you know, bring, it'll, it'll ultimately blow up in the face of American Jews. So if you care about American Jew or you got to vote for Democrats. I, here's, I understand why some people would look at the anti-Semitism on both sides and say it's worse on the right. I don't agree with that at all, but I understand why. The left's anti-Semitism as crazy as they are, as wild as the lies are, the genocide lie, the war crimes, the starvation, the, all of it. They still bother to have a cover story, which is that they care about Palestinian lives. They care about the Palestinian children. They believe they're against colonialism. These are also not a colonialist country. But nevertheless, it fits into this larger cover story on the left. You look at people on the right the anti-semites on the right. They're talking about the protocols of elders of Zion They're talking about the Talmud at Jew. You know, they're talking about the All sorts of Jewish sorcery and you know a cabal controlling everything. It's naked The anti-semitism on the left is pretty close to naked But it's not The on the right they're not bothering Well, so we're starting to not bother on the I agree with you about the started not bother on the left, but so you know somebody A journalist once asked me what it was that bothered me specific what scared me or what spooked me or whatever I forget how she phrased it about left-wing anti-semitism and And I my answer was that because It's not immediately recognized as anti-semitism because it comes in under a cloak of something else It gets far into the bloodstream before you counteract it So you know to me I wrote a post recently about this about how like We waste a lot of time Pretending people aren't aren't anti-Semitic who obviously aren't anti-Semitic and then it's like okay fine Yes, Linda Sarswar is an anti-Semitic. Yes. Can I have the three years of my life back that you spent calling me a racist for saying it Linda Sarswar's like the Nazi the guy with the Nazi tattoo Turned out to be an anti-Semite. I know you're surprised. I know I'm so we're all surprised apology except but like It just there is this sense that like he has a he has an SS tattoo But he says BB and so people are like well, maybe just anti-Semitism or whatever the problem is that You can see it on the right and so you can immediately Target it and it comes under a certain cover and so by the time you get to a point where people want to address it within the democratic party It's gotten it's grown so much more than it should have if you had treated it at the beginning The other thing that I would say is that I you know I kind of find to you eyes point, you know There is this like when they say Israel they mean Jews or whatever, but I also get really annoyed at how the conversation about Palestine has often includes Nothing about Palestine and nothing about Israel and it is treated by the public by the narrative as if it does Let me give you an example Susan Sarandon made a comment early on in the war after October 7th, right? And she says that her agent dropped her and so she was complaining about Whenever being blacklisted or something like that now every story on it was Susan Sarandon punished for being pro Palestine Susan Sarandon You know for for making pro Palestine comments, right Here is what she's here is the quote what she said There are a lot of people that are afraid of being Jewish at this time and are getting a taste of what it feels like to be a Muslim in this country I Didn't hear Palestine. I didn't hear Israel. I didn't hear Zionism or anti-Zionism or BB but person just said Jews are now learning what it feels like to be Muslim in this country It was a quote about American Jews getting a taste of what a different minority feels in America because there was violence against them It was it Right, it was it was they're getting a not just a taste. Yes. Yeah, or or at least or or at least they are finally Maybe now they'll have some empathy for Muslims or some there was there was some element of that. Yes But it was again, we have a lot of these discussions that actually have nothing to do with that and what what's happened is that the instinct To cover it with anti-Zionism has now transferred to when people just say Jew And then people on the left say oh she's talking about Palestine and anti-Zionism and stuff like that It's reversed itself to cover up even the obvious open anti-Zionism Hey, it's time once again to talk to you about quince I want to talk to you about the new winds holo shirt that I got this fall new piece It's called the organic cotton long sleeve peak holo. It is fantastic. It is one of the most comfortable things that I've ever owned and Right now I'm sitting in the peak polo shirt in the loading green color with my quince Hortaroi pants on now. I'm not the only person I know who is outfitted Completely in quince as my friend Steve every time I see him says hey look here's my quince sweater here my quince pants I'm even wearing quince underwear. This is a guy who started shopping with quince because of the commentary ads and here he is Surrounded by quince high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like a hundred percent mongolian Cashmere organic cotton and marina wool Styles timeless versatile and designed to become the dependable pieces you reach for every day So find your next fall favorites at quince download the quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com Get free shipping on your order at 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too and when quince asks where you heard about them Let him know. It was the commentary magazine podcast. It's the best play to support the show There is a viral clip going around There is a comedian named Lucas Zellick Who is not funny by the way and as I find politically loads him He in his this clip he says I'm a palestine guy and prop out, you know Israel's doing disgusting things So he can drop dead as far as I'm concerned Rich kid total nipple baby father was head of 20th century fox Mother is from the richest Jewish family in Canada Muzzle tough to him. He's a rich boy who isn't funny who was trying to be a comedian But he got himself a viral clip because while he's talking on stage Somebody in the audience shouts out Jews are evil And so he decides to do crowd work, which is what you call the moment when a comedian tries to interact with with with the audience which is the hottest new trend and stand-up comedy is doing crowd work And so he tries to engage with her and he says whoa Whoa, what do you what do you mean Juzer? What do you mean evil like what what what are you talking about and then She says something like well Gaza and then he says well wait a minute. I'm standing here on a stage in the United States And I'm pro palestine. I'm you know, I I think basically said I think Israel's committing a genocide in Gaza You're talking to me. I'm standing here on this stage. What is it that you're referring to Saying that Jews are evil And then she says well, I'm the one asking the question and then he says no, I'm asking you a question and then It keeps cutting back like it's a it's an edited clip and then at some point she leaves the theater And he says wow, I can't really believe this is you know happening usually I only talk about I talk about being Jewish and being rich But here I am and you know like I don't believe in shutting people down even when they're um anti-Semites or something like that But this reason I'm bringing this up even though I find Lucas telling like a a a a repugnant Person was that even he Mr I'm gonna assure assert to you that I am you know with you in the Anti-Israel camp you're calling me evil. I'm even saying to you in response to what you just said That Israel is terrible So can't you just come back at me and say okay? Well, then Jews aren't evil. It's Israel. I'm talking about She can't she didn't the audience member because she reflects the truest deep You know opinion of what it is that is going on here As anti-Semitism has exploded since October 7th Because Israel's behaving in one way and Jews are getting attacked in America in another way There are Jews in Brooklyn who are Part of an anti-Zionist Jewish movement The sautner Hasidim who are opposed to the existence of the state of Israel On the grounds that it is a blasphemy for there to be a state of Israel before the return of the Messiah Who are getting beaten up in the streets or getting you know getting punched in the back of the head or something like that Why are they in Israel? Are they do they have noggin? Are they wearing you know a noggin the feed? Are they you know? Are they are they handing out literature looking to elect shots To the you know to the parliament? No, they're just Jews standing on a street and that is what Has been going on in the United States and people like Lucas the experience of Lucas Zelnik is itself an example of What it is that John love it and people like him either refuse to see Or don't don't really they don't actually care They don't actually care that they are empowering, excusing and providing space For people who are trafficking in Frankly genocidal stereotypes Jews are evil is the fundament idea behind Jews are evil. They took, they stole Christian children and used their blood from Mata. They, you know, they created the black death. You know, they're responsible for, you know, whatever. I mean, that is the source of all ideas about Jews and their punished this effect on the world, which Tucker Carlson, frankly, is now basically, is just now the loudest voice in the English speaking world on this point. So there's, but he now says he's not a Republican. He says, I'm no longer a Republican. I will never vote through it. I would vote for El Sayed and all that. So, yeah, three things on all this. The first is the Republican Party is having a reckoning on this issue at this point. We have to say, and Donald Trump, you know, to my pleasant surprise, I guess, or maybe, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be surprised, has taken the right side of that debate within the party, partly because, you know, Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene, kind of, you know, you're right, they've said, they're basically not Republicans anymore. Okay, but the thing I wanted to get at, which I think is really important, is that much of this debate now on both sides of it in Michigan is about Jewish safety. That bothers me. There's another viral clip from the fiance of Haley Stevens. I don't know if you've seen what he says, but Haley Stevens, of course. Haley Stevens was the candidate who ran against Abdul El Sayed in the Democratic primary and lost by a point. Right, okay. And she still says, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna endorse Abdul and all this other stuff, but her fiance kind of said, I couldn't stay silent anymore. - He's Jewish. - And, right, he's Jewish. And that there is, you know, people have said, you know, this is gonna get Jews killed and this is, you know, this is about Jewish safety. I have a real problem with having this even being an issue that you can debate. Like, I don't think that the Jewish community in America should even be asking any politician, do you support the safety of Jews? This is a, this is part of the bargain of citizenship. Are you kidding me? And, you know, I'm of the view that, you know, the Jewish community has gotta start standing up more for itself in terms of its own safety. And I'd like to see more resilience. That's another question. But that's where it's like the Democrats like love it, who come from kind of another era than the socialists. Like he's still stuck in this idea that, of course, that Democrats are always for the safety of minorities. That's why you have to kind of come back to us, even if we are gonna allow this obdolsaid, that just means we're having a debate about Israel policy. But you should understand that you're gonna be safe with us. And that to me is, I just find it, it drives me a little crazy. Stop gaslighting us. You know, because this guy, obdolsaid, the reason I'm concerned about him, actually has much more to do with the fact that I'm a patriotic American. And as much more to do with the fact that I don't think that he represents America's national interests, I think that he's against values that I kind of think are American. And you are just skating past that by saying any question of what are very clear affiliations, I'm not saying he's not a member of the Muslim brother. He says he's not fine. He's a fellow traveler of political Islam for sure. And we have ample evidence of this. And so the idea that is really pernicious because it's like you can't bring up this stuff in the final leg of the campaign of who obdolsaid is. By the way, we didn't need the latest reporting that he signed a letter in 2012 to the Egyptian, the Muslim brotherhood leader of Egypt at the time that encouraged him to purge non-Islamists from the police and the press, which should be a giveaway. We didn't need any of that. We could tell because he campaigns with Hassan Piker who himself is celebrating me. Hassan Piker says my favorite flag is Hezbollah. I think Hamas is better than Israel. I mean, that's the Muslim brotherhood position. So all of that is what should, it's about what obdolsaid believes. And the idea that in the last five days of this campaign, if only obdolsaid would give a speech where he would say, oh, I take it back. Sorry, we've crossed that line. There's a reason he's not doing it. He's not going to really denounce that. I don't know who's even, I don't honestly. Halley Stevens to be frank. No, all the Democrats are like, hold on. You haven't made that. They're all saying that. Who? I'm saying the argument from the Michigan Democrats who are going with Rogers. Like Halley Stevens is fiance. I know, but they've already, but you know what? If he made that apology, they still shouldn't vote for him. Like that's why I shouldn't, but I'm saying that that's what they're saying that he has made no effort. The reason I make us feel safe is what they're saying. But the reason that I'm bringing, bring this up about whether or not he should apologize or say that ad was bad and it should be off and it should, and why he's not doing or why he's doing it or whatever is. As you say, he is like Donald Trump. He is who he is. And by the time Donald Trump ran, you know, by the time it was election day in 2016, why didn't the access Hollywood tape take Donald Trump down? Because it had already been subsumed that Donald Trump was Donald Trump. And the person who was yet not entirely fixed amazingly enough in the public imagination in some fashion was the person who had been in politics for 25 years of 30 or whatever was Hillary Clinton. Because the day on October 28th, is that yeah, like yesterday, 10 years ago, was the day that James Comey reopened the investigation into Hillary's emails because of Anthony Winner. He closed it, he closed it on the 20th. He opened it like a week and a half before and they got through it very quickly. And then he had to start spending three days before people voted, saying, okay. Yeah, okay, whatever, okay. So, he, Hillary, they reopened the Hillary email investigation, which I'm sure is what basically was the thing that tipped the election over into Trump's camp. I'm bringing this up only to say that this is now all fixed. Trump was Trump, he was the issue of the campaign and people who are willing to vote for him, were willing to vote for him. People willing to vote for Abdulla Sayed are willing to vote for Abdulla Sayed. Nothing that he does now is going to make it so that people who have already now decided they're gonna vote for Rogers are gonna flip and vote for El Sayed. The question now goes to whatever small number of people that are left in Michigan who haven't made their minds up yet. Meaning either he's won or he's lost, probably. Today this morning, if you look at CNN, you would say that he is won because CNN has a pullout that has El Sayed up 49-42. That is not conforming, that does not. Remember, polls can be siops. CNN is not a very good pollster as I'm reminded by pollster friends of mine. And in every race according to this, every, every, every Democrat is ahead in every race. So, I don't know what's going on there, but I bring this up only to say that he shouldn't apologize. Like he, that just makes things more complicated for him politically to start introducing doubt about his own views and things and what's going on in his campaign in the week before the campaign. He's made his case, he is who he is, he's tried to be authentic and his authenticity is, he hates Israel, he thinks Israel is monstrous and he thinks that, you know, and he, and he ain't too fond of American Jews for being supporters of Israel or for whatever reason. And he doesn't think it's necessary as a Michigan or a politician to make a central point out of how people shouldn't be driving cars into daycare centers and nursery schools at synagogues in his own state where he is trying to become the senator because or say something about how the person who was responsible for more American deaths over the last 40 years or the regime aside from Osama bin Laden, that is Iran which killed 1,000 Americans in Iraq and killed 241 Americans in Lebanon and has targeted Americans all over the world. That you can't say that it's good that the leader of that regime, you know, was taken off the geopolitical chessboard 'cause that might be offensive to people and of course hurt people, hurt people. So there's another, by the way, there's another element of this that bothers me, which is the idea that you're voting for the party and not the man. When in fact, you know, a couple of years ago, Carrie Lake ran in Arizona was among like some of the, you know, a group of kooky trumpists, candidates running for a senate and. house races, right? And I remember in the results, pretty sure what happened was the Republican lost the Senate race and any other top line races. And they, the state elected a Republican state treasurer. Now, in order to do that, you have to really look at your ballot, okay? You can go like, you know, governor, senator, house, you know, and then be like, oh, but you know, for state treasurer, the Republican running for state treasurer is sane. People were, and they did this ballot splitting in other states. They did it in Georgia, for example. And so it just felt more pronounced when I, you know, a treasurer was the highest ranking Republican to actually win in a split ballot. But what it told me was that people were looking for sane candidates. And that was a good thing. It was better that people were looking to elevate sane Republicans and punish crazy Republicans than it would have been to punish every Republican, even the sane ones and throw them all in the same basket and then go over to the Democrats and say the party ideas all that matters. What people were doing was saying we want to incentivize people to not be psycho. And so we're going to vote for non-scikos and we're not going to vote for psychos and we're going to make that plain. That is a way that you can, I'm not saying it will, but that is what, that is the way that you can improve a party from within is elevating, you know, reward the candidates who are right that now. Okay, I want stuff that else that's with us. So let's, let's, let's, let's take this back historically. Talk about trend lines in the Democratic Party and the Republican Party over the past three generations. I'm sorry to get like, you know, didactic, the trend line in the Democratic Party dating back to the year after 1967, the six-day war, the high water mark of when, when American Jews fully became Zionist. Significant part of the community was not Zionist. American Jews were, you know, blown away by what happened in 1967, Israel's, you know, self-defeated fact that it really wasn't ever going to go away. They, they, they were not sort of backing the losing side or whatever. In 1968, there was the first major explosion of anti-Semitism inside the Democratic camp here in New York City. It's a complicated story. I'm not going to go into it. There was a teacher strike, right? Yeah. There was a teacher strike. There was a, there was a community board that took over a school system inside the school system in a neighborhood called Ocean Hill Brownsville. And the, this, this board of black activists fired Jewish school teachers, claiming that they were not proper stewards of this overwhelmingly black population in Ocean Hill Brownsville, which had once been a divided neighborhood where, like my father grew up. So half Jewish, half not Jewish. And, and the, and the union took the teachers out on strike. And there was a very violent, crazy period of a, of a union strike on the grounds that the schools that this community board did not have the right to fire teachers who had a contract with the city. And this is, and there were, and what, what's more, they're being fired on the basis of their race or ethnicity or, you know, or beliefs anyway. And that was unconstitutional. And the response in the city among black activists was openly, nakedly, anti-Semitic. And there was a moment at which a bunch of people supporting the effort opposed to the AFT and the union. And then supporting the efforts in the Ocean Hill Brownsville took a coffin into Central Park, painted in Maghanda V, the Jewish star on the coffin, and danced around it, danced around the coffin. That was an epical moment. That was a foundational moment in the creation of what is now known as neoconservatism. Because these, the, the neoconsurers were all Democrats. They were, a lot of them were, you know, New York City Jews. A lot of them, by the way, worked for the AFT and were part of the union labor movement under George Meaney, who is the head of the AFLCIO. And we're all very supportive of all this. And no one had ever seen anything like this. And this idea that something bad was going on in the Democratic Party. And that it wasn't denounced by everybody at the same time because there were fears of alienating black voters. And of course, the civil rights movement was then in full bloom and was the noblest effort going on in the United States. The Democratic Party from then went on this very slow and went in a lot of different directions. And I'm not saying this is a through line. But, you know, you had that. Then you had another explosion of anti-Semitism when Andrew Young, the UN ambassador to Jimmy Carter met in violation of US policy, met secretly with the PLO in in 1978, 1978, 1979, by the way, also said Ayatollah Khomeini was the Iranian George Washington. Right. Anyway, Andrew Young, who had been the mayor of Atlanta and was the UN ambassador, was fired. And then there was a huge out there was a huge thing. Then 1984, Jesse Jackson runs for president calls New York City, Jaime Town, you know, then, you know, then, you know, then Foxman works on how many apologizes and yeah, the hell with him. Anyway, okay. All right. The hell with his apology on that, John. Okay. I know. I know. Well, you believe that people's hearts can change. And I don't. And I don't think Jesse Jackson's heart changed. And I don't care. I don't care. That was he had Louis Farrakhan as his, as provide security. I don't care. I know I'm just saying all that. So again, I'm pointing out these sort of high what highlight marks as we go through time. Okay. That's the Democratic Party. 74. There were moments later, there were moments in the 2000s and the 2012, you know, campaigns and early accusations of genocide and the rise of the BDS movement and all of that, all of which is on the left and all of which is affiliated with Democratic Party to some extent, even if the Democratic Party was still supporting, you know, arms sales to Israel and all of that. Okay. Okay. But I can probably let me finish. I want to put it on the left. Okay. All right. All right. What? In 2016, Bernie Sanders yelled at his own supporters at a rally who were saying like some pro-Hamas thing. He said, that's not what we're about. Yeah. And now he's about. And now it's what he's at. That's my point. That's my point. The Bernie Sanders 10 years ago. Right. Yeah. I mean, we did. We had many disagreements with him, but at a fundamental level, he was still Zionist. He's no. Yeah. No, no. He thought he could go to New York. He was worried about, he was worried about losing me. He was, he thought he could win New York. If he was nicer about Israel, he was a total anti-Zionist then and he is now. Let's face it. Let's just, that's the true. He was a two-stater. I'm sorry. He was a two-stater. I mean, you may be in his heart of heart. You could say whatever you want. And I agree that his background is very pro-Sandanista and pro-Commy and all of that is worse than that. But we don't have to have an argument at Bernie Sanders. I want to go now. Now I want to go to the Republican Party. Story of the Republican Party is almost the reverse of the Republican Party. It wasn't a fundamentally anti-Semitic party, but it was very generally speaking, not happy with Israel. Wanted to side for conventional rail policy reasons with the Arab states. It was like we got these 22 Arab states. They have oil. They're people that we know how to deal with. And then there's this piddly little country with a bunch of people sitting there, making trouble for our economic lifeline and causing oil embargoes and all of that. Why are we even bothering with them? And they were old country club people didn't let Jews into their country clubs and all of that. And then came this sea change in the Republican Party. Former Democrat, Ronald Reagan, a emotional Zionist becomes the president of the United States. Number one, number two evangelical Christians, all of whom were Democrats. And the evangelical movement is the political religious story of the 1970s, the wild rise in the number of evangelical Christians. And evangelical Christians we believed in Genesis 12, which says, you know, those who bless you, I will bless those who curse you, I will curse God says to Abraham and believed it was therefore their responsibility obligation under the terms of the Bible to support the state of Israel. And the evangelicals became the most important voting block inside the Republican Party. And while the Republican Party was 50/50 pro anti-Israel in 1980 by 1988, it had shifted radically and you had the last, the last sort of emotionally unfriendly to the idea of the Jewish particularism in George H. W. Bush and Brent Skullcroft as national security advisor in James Baker, his secretary of state, who had no emotional connection to any of this, were themselves not evangelicals. We're old, old line, you know, cappalians and didn't know why we were bothering in this way. Okay, that was the last presidency like this from 1990 until 2020, until the rise of the groipers in 2015 and then the fight over the last 10 years inside the Republican Party, the Republican Party has moved, became the most reliable supporter of the state of Israel that America has ever seen. Overwhelming, not just the Republican voters, but the Republican politicians with a very few exceptions and some of those exceptions are gone, right, literally due to the intercession of politicians at the top of the party. When David Duke, the head of the clan, and this was George H. W. Bush, becomes the Republican nominee for the governor of Louisiana in 1990, the president of the United States, the head of the Republican Party, tells Republicans to vote Democrat so that a clansman can't become governor of Louisiana and poison the Republican Party. When Thomas Massey becomes an enemy of Israel, Donald Trump champions the effort to get him booted from office in a primary and wins. And then there was the case of the guy whose name I constantly forget earlier, Congressman Iowa, Iowa talking about the guy from Iowa, not joke it, no, not joke it, but the Congressman from Iowa who also lost because of the interest and very, very anti-Semitic. Steve King. Steve King. Not just anti-Semitism, he used to talk about Mexican immigrants with calves like cantalopes and stuff like, like, really wacky guy. So anyway, the Republican Party has fought inside itself against this trend toward supporting anti-Semites. And the Democratic Party, and now we can now date the Democratic Party's journey to this point to 2019, to where it is now, when the all about the Benjamin's comment was made by Squad member, was it Omar? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, why do we support it? It's all about the Benjamin's, right, the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, seeing the rise of this radical movement on the right, wanted to nip it in the butt, with the assistance of her, the guy with whom she was not friendly, her whip, Steny Hoyer, but Steny Hoyer, a supporter of Israel, wanted to condemn or issue a censure or whatever of Ilhan Omar for this remark and the Democratic caucus of which she was the CBC in particular. Congressional Black Caucus, but the Democrat caucus said we are not going to vote to censure Ilhan Omar. And they ended up with a resolution calling for the end of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. That was the last moment when conventional Democratic politicians stood up against active anti-Semitism inside their own party. That was, and it didn't happen, right? They did it. They failed, and never did it again, Joe Biden behaved well toward Israel for the first eight weeks of the 2023 war. And I think people who support Israel still in weird ways owe Joe Biden a debt of gratitude because he could have gone otherwise. And we know from the voices inside his administration who are talking now like Phil Gordon and Jake Sullivan and others that there were plenty of pressures inside to bend even early toward not letting Israel do what it needed to do to defeat this incredible hustle. So we have these two trends, 60 years. Democrats slowly and, you know, with a lot of twists and turns, turning against Israel and Jews, even though Jews are a voting block inside the Democratic party and the Republican party going more and more with terrible moments of horrible behavior, particularly in the last 10 years from their furthest right flank, going more and more exceptionally supportive of the state of Israel and of Jews and believing that, and this. And I don't know, Eli, you said you support, so you said you support, or your problem with Abdul Tayyed is that he is anti-American. Well, and I agree, I agree that, you know, if you if you're a lover of America, you can't vote for Abdul, he hates America and that's it, right? But what the difference between Democrats and Republicans, even on this matter, is that Republicans in general, in large measure, do not see any contradiction and in fact see a commonality between being a American patriot and a supporter of the lone democracy in the Middle East that is based fundamentally in the Judeo-Christian tradition that they that they hold to and the Democrats do not. That is not where the Democrats are if they support Israel's for other reasons and it's not because they're patriot, it's not because their patriotism jives with their understanding of what the Middle East is like and what Israel is like and what the threats to the United States are in the Middle East and elsewhere. So when I say that we're looking at why this is a watershed election, we are seeing the possible enshrinement of the idea that the Democratic Party should be and electorally will succeed at being fundamentally anti-sianist and effectively anti-Semitic, so here endeth my, here endeth my historical report and yes, everybody on YouTube please make comments about how I talk too much because I'm glad I did this now let's talk about it. I would say also one other thing is about the anti-sianism thing itself is that the Democrats have embraced what I what I've called not all Democrats, but you know I the progressives I should say progressive the progressive movement, especially the activist wing have embraced what I what I would call lifestyle anti-sianism, which is it's not just the political position it's a personality they their personality is anti-sianist you know it's like are you type a or type B I'm type anti-sianist I'm type Palestine that's my personality and so it's in everything you can't how you know we had these I remember one of my favorite stories was I'm proud and I'm sure I've told this before but during the tentifada uprisings and all that stuff at the colleges one of the one of the schools I think it was Columbia had this you know had had had a class about astronomy and the TA who gave the class notes had a thing in there about how we shouldn't be even doing this because when people in Gaza look up at night they don't see stars they see missiles IDF missiles or whatever so if you were taking a class about space at an elite college you were told don't study space because the Palestinians don't have space space is privilege you know that sort of thing so this is the this is lifestyle anti-sianism which is if it's going to feed into everything you know then this is why this is why you have clubs on campus making anti-sianism a prerequisite for joining because it's the same thing essentially as a loyalty oath it's you know so if it's one thing to say I man I meant designs have all these problems with Israel and you know it should just be Palestine from the river to the sea whatever that's a terrible position to take but if it doesn't affect how what basketball team you root for you might be a tolerable human being to be around before we get around to you I might not even know your position the problem is that it's like veganism or you know something like that where you shake the guy's hand and it's like hi my name's Fred on Palestine that sort that that is a suffocatingly hyper politicized lifestyle and it is organized around the idea that the one Jewish state in the world shouldn't exist and that is part of a big part of the problem because next year it's not it doesn't feel like next year it's going to go back to being abortion or something else it doesn't feel like there's a real rotation of basic issues it feels like there's one litmus test now to being a part of that whole broad political coalition and that is different from saying they have a bad opinion regularly on X okay I just think I give it one little silver lining what drove the coalition that elected Trump in 24 one of the factors was the compelled opinion one must have on gender ideology on you know policing on race that kind of you know what that was the environment, especially in elite institutions, leading up to the 24 election. It kind of tapered off, you could say in 23, maybe 22, but people very much presented that. And that now this Palestine firstism, Palestine, you know, Palestinianism, has replaced the gender ideology and things like that. Now, you know, in elite spaces one can have a view that say, hey, I don't think you should, you know, do these hormone experiments on adolescence. That can be exploited to be an advantage because I believe that part of there's a paradox in the Palestine first movement. On the one hand, they like to sort of say, we're a ground up movement and we're against all the corporate money, the APAC money in politics and we're against all odds and look at us now. But on the other hand, you're right that they practice the politics of compulsion. They, you have to say it's a genocide. You have to agree with us on all these things where else you're gonna be cast out. But I think it's better but Cess Point is right, which is if it's a lifestyle choice, it's not just that you have to be forced into it. Right, it's that you're let into the club. Right. And the price, the price of admission is having this, and then you get to have a lot of fun inside. I, as long as what I'm saying is that one, that dynamic was you could have said the same thing in 2021 that you didn't go with Black Lives Matter and that was everything, then that was then you were not going to be part of at least these kind of respectable on elite campuses and so forth. That produces, that always produces a kind of blowback in a lot of ways. So people don't like that. They don't want to feel compelled that there is something transgressive then. I would argue in 2026 going forward, there's something transgressive about showing up with a pro-Israel t-shirt and saying I'm a Zionist. That's more punk rock now than all of this other stuff. If you say, that is a very small, that is a really small silver lining. I mean, that is a silver lining. I'm not saying it's the, I'm agreeing. Because I don't know that that's bad. I don't even know that that's true. What you're arguing, I mean, look, I have kids on college campuses. Yeah, trust me, it's not punk rock to walk around wearing a Zionist t-shirt. Yeah, but it is punk rock. I wouldn't believe that. No, it's that's the forbidden thing. You're not allowed to say it. What I'm saying is that. And you know what? And people don't say it. You're saying. No, so that's what makes it punk rock. I'm sorry, but that's the point. Is that at a certain point, yes, it's right now, it's looking very grim, but eventually, because I'm assuming still that young people in colleges have a little bit of some of them have a rebel streak, some of them have an independent streak, some of them want to stick it to their professors and stick it to their consensus. And if that's what you want to do, I'm just saying, the new, it's in ways opens up a kind of an opportunity out of the enormous kind of social status and stature that pro-Israelism and Zionism has lost in the last few years. But I'm saying that at this point, you can see no sign of that on the left. I know how to say. I see no sign of that on the left at all anywhere. I would, I'd be happy to see it. I see no. I'm not saying that. Even what you're describing. But if you say, no, but even what you're describing about Black Lives Matter and trans, you're talking about politicians who are in swing districts who are worried about getting crosswise of voters who are passionate about these things. Show me where-- - Are you talking about politics? - Okay, I'm saying this. - I'm talking culturally. I'm talking culturally. Where's your evidence, where's your evidence that trans? Where's your evidence that trans, for example, is in a different cultural odor than it was three years ago? I mean, there's just, you feel it because-- - No, but polls do show that. I mean, polls always showed it. - It was never a poll. - Okay, okay, now as you get it, we're getting a field. I just, I'm way more pessimistic than you are about the idea that people are going to rebel against this consensus. - Yeah, I'm saying that it opens a slight opportunity for someone to do it, and once you do it, and once you prove this is the new group thing, this is what they're compelling you to say, there is a natural kind of revulsion to that in our culture. They people don't like being told what to think and what to say, and it's obvious right now that the most powerful force in our culture of what you absolutely have to say is you have to say it's a genocide, you have to say that Israel shouldn't exist. And every Hollywood actor pretends that their renegades, they're not, is my point. - Okay, they're conformists. - I think there's some truth to what you guys talk about here, but I don't, we're nowhere near there yet. Palestinianism has to get so absurd, so silly that it suddenly becomes like woke. That it becomes this obvious on its face, laughing stock. It hasn't, I mean, it should be already, but whatever they have to go through or a few theatrical phases to get there, you know, but hold on, but I just wanna say, yeah. And part of the difference between defund and the trans stuff and this cause of Palestine is that the second you defunded the police or whatever drew down police funding, people saw crime went up and had immediate, real world bad results. Trans, you had a series of whistleblowers saying, well, we're doing to these kids and these clinics, the way that they are being, families are being guided into this mutilation factory, this is a nightmare. And so you saw, wait, what bad things are happening here? It takes a lot for the pro-Palestine cause what are they going to see here anytime soon? - Can I, can I give it a go? - That's bad as a result. - A recent example, this week, Dan Goldman, not my favorite guy, I've written critically of him because of his role in the first impeachment and other things like that. Dan Goldman went out on X and got an argument with Ben Rhodes and, you know, said, if you don't announce this ad that says that Israel's responsible for the price of bananas, then you're full of shit. That's what he said, excuse my language, but that's what he said. Now, that is an example of somebody who is kind of on the other side of having been compelled to go so far as to say all this stuff, but wouldn't call it a genocide, then gets primary by Bradlander. And Bradlander made, by the way, I could see Bradlander in a year, ending on the same square in some ways because he's gonna have to deal with the same kind of things with these altars in the movement. And he's coming out and he's saying, get out of here and you're seeing a lot of it in the Michigan Democrats. The fact that I'm just saying this is something that's very real, people don't like being told that they can only think one thing. - You like, I agree, let's exploit that as well. - I'm seeing early, very early, yeah, but not even green shoots, but there's some sort of pushback on the genocide, litmus test and things like that. But, you know, also part of the problem here is, DEI forced people, every day people with jobs in schools to go through a malist personality training. - Horrible, right. - They haven't yet implemented that for anti-signation. And what is happening is happening 9,000 miles away from here. What is happening, the issue here involves people who couldn't point to Israel on a map who have no idea how large Israel is geographically, who don't know where Gaza is in relation to where the Jews live, who know absolutely nothing about this. What they know is there were bombs, and unlike in Israel, when thousands of missiles were fired, Israel managed to shoot most of those missiles down when Israel fired at stuff at Gaza, it landed and blew things up. And so, this is one of those moments where boy, wouldn't it have been great if thousands of Israel's had been killed in missile strikes, 'cause then people would feel sorry for the Jews, the way they feel sorry for the Gossens. Well, guess what? Thousands of Israelis were murdered and raped and beaten and tortured and treated this way, and it led to an increase in hatred of Israel and anti-Semitism because the Jews responded. So, there's no turn that I see happening here necessarily because, as Abe says, because what's happening is divorced from the personal experience of everybody except American Jews. Everybody except American Jews. American Jews are on the front lines. American Jews are spending a billion dollars a year on security, private security to harden Jewish facilities. American Jews are wondering whether or not their children should wear a key coat on the subway. [BLANK_AUDIO] If they're believing Jews wonder what's going on at the hills on their campuses, where people are getting hired lying about how they feel ideologically and then trying to preach anti-zionism inside the hill L at Emory, having misrepresented their opinions and all of that Jews around the front lines. But nobody else is, nobody else is unless they're emotionally attached to Israel. The only people in the United States who are emotionally attached to Israel who are not Jewish are evangelical Christians. So I don't know where you're going to get. I think if that lunatic terrorist had succeeded in his attack in Michigan at the Jewish day school and it had been a horrible tragedy, I'm so glad he failed. There are, I just think that, or just in general, there could be terrorism that is not just directed at American Jews, it's directed at Americans, and there are a lot of things that can blow back. I mean, they talk about globalizing the Antifada, you know, October 2018. We're going to globalize that into Fada, and October 2018, 11 Jews are killed at the Tree of Life synagogue. Yes. Right? Right. October 2018. Six months later, Ilhan Omar says it's all about the Benjamin's and you can't get it to Nancy, you can't get Democrats in Congress to say that is unacceptable. Six months after Tree of Life. So what I'm saying is drive that, succeed in blowing up the Bloomfield Hills synagogue. That won't move. You might be right, John. I don't want to move. This is extremely speculative. The only thing I'll just end on this is that you have as a result of this, at the very least, a number of Jewish Democrats who were happy to sit on their hands and go along to get along who are no longer willing to do that. But if you're counting, if you're counting Dan Goldman as your example, that's a, I'm sorry, that's a terrible example. He's only. What about John? Because he done. Josh Gottheimer. There's a lot. Okay. I'm just saying there are Jewish Democrats. There's not a lot. You just made up one person. You made one person in the house. Godheimer. You can go through the. And there are others too. What the. Mosquits. Yeah. I've been out there in Rosquits. I'm thinking of something else. But I think you can give me a list. No, you're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. They write me emails all the time. I get it from electeds and others who reach out to me privately and they're like, this is, you know, by the way, a lot of them are listening to commentary now and they weren't listening before. Good. I'm. And I'm saying that there's, there's at least now a fight. It's gotten so bad that at least there are elements of the Democrats who, by the way, wouldn't have stuck their neck out in 2018 because maybe it wasn't as bad. But now they're saying the sole of the party. And if Al Sayyad loses, they will have a little bit of momentum to say we've gone in the wrong direction. And if he wins, if he wins, they go, they go right into the rabbit hole. You know, they go right into the rabbit hole and they, you know, they put on, they, you know, they put on a cross, they convert to a piscopalianism, they do whatever they think they have to do. I'm just saying you're seeing, you're seeing green shoots at a moment when you probably should be seeing the opposite. Like I don't know that this is hope that you're offering. I love you. I love saying it's going to be okay, John, what I'm saying is that you're saying it's okay. I don't. We're in the moment we're in. Yeah. We have to look at like, okay, what are our advantages? And as I see it, I still believe the American college student does want to piss off his parents, does want to tick off his professors and for some of them, at least this is the ultimate way to do it. You want to, you want to really be transgressive, you know, wear a monoclembagin t-shirt. That is hope. And that is like, that is like, you know, O.D. levels of hope. That is like, you're going to be hospitalized for your overdosing, I'm going to tell you some, you know what they, I'll say the ear goon was an organization that it maybe had at most about 1500 people in it at its peak, okay? And so I'm just saying, all I want committed group of warriors, I want their, that's what I'm saying. I'm looking for. Me too. Okay. Me too. This is why, by the way, this is why, by the way, the whole Maclamore thing. Should give us hope, because he's obviously a massage plant, because if you were trying, if you were trying to make the Palestine movement cringe, which is the big sin now, you would take somebody whose, whose music style can best be described as cringe core and put him on stage. And, you know, so that's what I'm hoping for, that's the one piece of evidence in Eli's direction is that if Maclamore is going to be the guy on stage, maybe that will cringe or find the movement faster, and you'll get a, you know, a punk rock rebellion. Okay. Gal Gadot. Gal Gadot. The biggest pop culture star ever to emerge from Israel is moving back to Israel, because she says it is too hard to live in Hollywood as in Israeli. She is the biggest star ever to emerge from Israel. Start in two billion dollar grossing movies is a huge star in Netflix movies. She does not want to live in Los Angeles anymore because it's too hard to be in Israeli for her in that community in the United States. And it is safe for Gal Gadot to, the Gal Gadot to live in Los Angeles. I will believe that the tide has turned. I didn't say the tide is turning. I'm saying it's very grim right now, but let's find our resistance fighters where we can. Yeah, I haven't, I mean, I, I'm with you. I got him. I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, who is the Greek who went around looking for the one honest man, why am I blocking on that? Diogenes. Diogenes, right. We need diogen, I'm diogenes. I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking for that warrior. All right. So far, I'm not seeing that warrior. Gosh God, I'm, it's been great. Jared Mosque has been great. So let's, you know, you try to build something. I don't know. Okay. Okay. But just, you know, I just have to say Trump, just trumping you on this, like I did spend like a weekend on a college campus and I'm not saying it wasn't, no encampments and nothing like that. But you're not. And also where, where, where does this come from that you think that there is a mass population of people who want to, who, who are college campuses who want to piss off their parents? I'm saying there's, I'm not, it's not a mass. I'm saying there's always going to be some people who are going to find the thing that, that they're not supposed to say and once you get them and then they don't get their heads chopped off, that's how you move the culture. Okay. I'm saying it's okay. Okay. In 2018, for someone to get up and say men can't get pregnant was actually a transgressive thing. Today, it's been all, but it takes a couple people at, at the front end to sort of stand up and say, this is ridiculous. These professors have no idea what the hell they're talking about. And once you kind of get that and, you know, you can't, I think you think about, I feel, first of all, I think that the trend line there is very favorable, but I think if you think that that question is resolved and settled in places where we don't live in the, you know, in the, in the, in the progressive precincts and college campuses where we don't live about birthing persons and men can't be, I think you are, I think you were overestimating the degree of the cultural change on the trans issue, not, by the way, that there hasn't been a significant cultural change. There has. I'm not denying it. It's a legal change and a policy change and a policy change, we don't live in that world anymore. Yes. Okay. Anyway, Eli, this has been a fantastic conversation and, uh, and, uh, just remember crushing morocity is our, I, I am now representing you are representing an attitude of, you know, high good humor and hope. And I am speaking for the Jewish people who know that there's no hope, I, I, I, I, there's no hope. That's what I'm saying. Okay. (laughing) This is the Hill All Tarfun debate that we're, that we have going on here. For those of you who wanna play along with the trivia home game, the sun head drink, trivia home game, anyway, we'll be back tomorrow and I'm hoping we're not gonna talk much about, weirdly enough, I think I don't wanna talk much about the election between now and Tuesday because I think basically mostly things are settled and resolved and we have no, and we won't know until Tuesday. It's like the entire conversation about the Israeli election in the week before the Israeli election turned out to be Narskite because it was nonsense, nobody knew anything and the results are now, it remained unbelievably confusing two days later and so, you know, like we don't know what's gonna happen. So we should probably talk less about it and talk more about what's actually, we're gonna know tomorrow morning about what's going on in Israel and we are gonna have on Matt Continental and Dan Seymour to help us make some sense out of that. So we'll be back then. Eli thanks again for Abe and Seth of Jump Up Hortz. Keep the camera burning. I'm James Patterson. I write way too many books. Welcome to Hungry Dogs. The title comes from my maternal grandmother, Isabelle Zalvis-Maris. Dan used to always say, "Hungry dogs run faster, James, and I've been running fast ever since." Here's what will be coming your way soon, and this is a really terrific list, I think. You'll hear from some incredible people like Stacey Abrams. Yay! BJ Novak! Yay! Kathy Bates, Dolly Parton, Josh Gad, and Pope Leo. Okay, maybe not Pope Leo, but who knows, maybe he'll show up. "Hungry dogs run faster, thank you grandma, returning me into a hopeless, obsessive compulsive." Listen to Hungry Dogs with James Patterson, that'd be me on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Hey, this is Jeremy Stern. And I'm Walter Russell Need. We're the host of What Really Matters. Each week, Jeremy picks three stories from the news and one evergreen topic from history. And Walter helps us understand the news, decide what matters and what doesn't, and enjoy following the story of America and the world more than you do now. We cover politics, foreign policy, history, literature, technology, and everything else you need to understand where we are, how we got here, and why it matters for you. Please subscribe to What Really Matters with Walter Russell Need on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.