The Ancient Olympics

BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Yksi, kaksi, kolme, neljä, vii. Ota lähitapiellen henkivakuutus ja lepää traohassa. Henkivakuutuksen myöntää lähitapiolla keskinainen henkivakuutusyhtiö. Lähitapiolla, samalla puolella. Täällä meillä satolla on tapana sanoa. Kun on parhaimillaan kotona, on parhaimillaan elämässä. Siksi meillä on myös lemmikin tervetulleita. Kun on kotona hyvä, on usein myös elämässä hyvä. Muokra huoleton kotia. Sato, pisteffi. Katsotaan lähitapiolla. Katsotaan sinne katsotaan. Lähitapiolla. FBC Sounds, music, radio, podcast. Hello and welcome to your Dead To Me, history podcast for everyone. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author, and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Stories. If you haven't listened before, this podcast is all about mashing together First-class history and comedy gold for a winning combination of learning and roles. And as it's an Olympic year, today we are donning our Lycra, wrapping ourselves in the flag and lighting our fancy torches as we get to grips with the history of the Olympics. But none of your journey come lately, modern stuff. Oh no, we are journeying all the way back to Ancient Greece to cheer on our favourite local legends at the original Olympic Games. That's right, we're chatting OG OGs. And to help me do that, I'm joined by two champions of your Dead To Me. In History Corner, he's a class assist from the University of Warwick, an author and a BBC broadcaster. You may know him from his amazing documentary series Invisible Cities, in which he pointed lasers at old things. It's the wonderful Professor Michael Scott. Hi Michael, how are you? I'm well thanks, it's great to be back talking about naked Ancient Greeks again. Have you been limbering up? Have you been feeling sporty? Absolutely, I was last seen running naked down the mall earlier this morning in preparation. That's very, very important for you and for us. And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand-up, a novelist, a cultural icon. You have seen her alive at the Apollo, eight out of ten cats having the news for you. And of course, I'm a celebrity, get me out of here. It's still wonderful. Shapi Korsandi, hi Shapi. Hello, how are you? I'm alright, are you feeling sporty? Well, I've started to run with my dog, and that's embarrassing, because I run like full-pal. You go for it. And the dog just trots next to me. So, my self-esteem is low, but my thighs are toned. I think that's the best thing. It's so not. It's suddenly very hot in here. Not sure how to respond to that. Yeah, when I said thighs, I meant calves. Alright, well, we're already off to quite a weird start. So, what do you know? So, let's begin with the so-what do you know? Where I try and summarise what I think you at home might know about today's subject? Well, the Olympics are, of course, famous. We all love the Olympics. And chances are you've run for a bus while humming the theme tune to "Chariots of Fire". I certainly do. You're probably thinking Olympics, huge stadiums, metal ceremonies, amazing opening ceremonies, iconic victories for Mofara, and you're saying "Bolt, just NS". You're thinking maybe the five interlocked rings are taught parade, wall-to-wall coverage on the tally and Emily Sande banging out a tune. But you are probably not thinking ancient Greeks. So, I think we should start with the basics, really. Michael, can we talk about the Olympic rings very, very quickly? Are they ancient Greek? No. Right. The torch parade? No. Fine. Alright. We invented by Hitler for the 1936 Berlin Olympics, the torch relay. And the rings were around from beginning of the 20th century. But that's all part of the modern Olympics, as indeed is the marathon race. Named after a Greek battle. And it was never part of the ancient Olympics. Right. What do we know then about the very origins of the Olympics? I mean, can you tell us where is Olympia? So, Olympia is a place that you can visit today, and it's in the Peloponnese, which is the lower part of Greece. Olympia is kind of very much landlocked. It's big, open, flat land, two big rivers kind of coincide, the Alphius and the Caledias, and that's where the Olympic Games were held. Supposedly, the first Olympics was in 776 BC. And that's a famous date, because actually for a long, long time, scholars thought that history began when the Olympics began. And I think that happened before 776 was not history. It was called prehistory. Oh, that is. But then after the Olympics began, you could have history. And what else is there in Olympia? Well, there was one of these seven ones in the world. Shapi, do you want to guess what it was? One of the seven, oh gosh, now let me go through my mind and remember my Asterix books, The Asterix and the Olympic Games. Oh, is it the javelin? No, is it a mountain? Is it to do with a mountain? It's not a mountain. It's a giant, gold and ivory statue of Tom daily. Sorry, Zeus. Again confused, it's the abs. Zeus, 13 metres high, massive, whack and great statue. There is a really famous hill though, because Shapi was actually right. There was a famous hill. There was the hill of Kronos. The hill of Kronos, that was the one. Ah, still there today. And it sits right behind where they do the modern ceremony, every time there's an Olympics when they now light the Olympic torch. They light it at Olympia using parabolic mirrors. So it's a flame created from the gods. There's also an origin story. Have you ever heard of Enemias and Pelops? Shapi? Enemias and Pelops. Unless they live down my street. It's a very middle class name, isn't it Enemias? There is a couple at the bottom that no one really talks to. It might be them. Okay, I don't think it's them, Michael. So you have Onomat who's a king. He got told a prophecy that he was going to be killed by Sun Endor. So obviously he had a daughter. He wasn't very keen for that daughter to marry anyone, because he might get killed as a result. So he came up with a brilliant ruse. Any possible suit of his daughter. He challenged them to a chariot race. If they won, he could marry the daughter. If they lost, the dad killed them, basically. I say. And he had the best and fastest chariot around. And he thought he was kind of like kind of quid's in. Pelops turns up with a cunning plan in which he bribes the chariot driver, Enemias, to replace the axel pins of this chap's chariot with wax. At the same time, Pelops goes to his former lover, the god Poseidon, as you do, to get a really fast pair of horses, like kind of things. So he's got an equally good chariot. The chariot race starts. The axel spin round. The wax warms up. Chariot wheels come off. Enemias, the dad falls to his death, gets trampled under the horses. Pelops walks off with the girl. But what did he promise the chariot driver? First night with the bride. Whoa. When back on that chucked the guy off a cliff instead. As the guy fell off a cliff to his death, he turned and cursed Pelops and all his descendants forever for his actions. As a result of all that, they set up the Olympic Games in honor of Pelops. Hang on. Where did that be? It comes in very, that's a real like tacked on. And then I guess some Olympics. It's utterly bonkers. So the Olympic Games are supposed to be either funeral games in honor of the death of Pelops, or perhaps celebration games in honor of his victory. But he had a little enclosure in the sanctuary of Olympia dedicated just to him. So at the heart of the Olympics is a story of a guy who cheats his way to victory and commits a few murders. So I mean, now the Olympic Games are religious festival. Are they a political thing? What's the purpose of them? The other massive difference in the Olympics today is that they were in a religious event. They take place in a religious sanctuary sacred to Zeus king of the gods and also with a bit of Pelops worship going on. In fact, there were 70 different religious altars across the sanctuary and games places at Olympia. Even worse than that, the Olympics took place over five days in antiquity. Pretty much the first two and a half days were entirely religious sacrifices, religious prayers, processions in honor of the gods. Nothing that took place at Olympia was not completely part of a religious process. So there was a sort of opening ceremony, but it was a religious one. Absolutely. And it took two days and it culminated in the sacrifice of a hundred oxen to Zeus. So the whole play couldn't follow that. Shappy. Yes. The Olympic Games isn't technically speaking the straight translation. It's Olympia Koi Agnos. Do you want to guess what Agnos might mean in Greek competition? Nearly. It's sort of agonies, isn't it? It's kind of, it's really intense struggles. So they expected death. I mean, it's for long. It's the ego. It's the contest. It's the competition. It's the struggle. So if we had the Olympic agonies now, I mean, what events would we have? I mean, Shin kicking. But they do those like what I make when on a hen day, they said it was like going to be an obstacle course. But she didn't express how intense it was going to be. Like it was a proper scale, this wall, way through this mud. And half the women came in high heels. Which is another reason I don't go to hen nights. I mean, one of the things that the Olympics were solved that problem. Because they didn't allow any women to compete. I want to ask you every four years we have the Olympics. Has it always been like that or was it an annual event before? No, it was every four years. Do you want to guess what the first ever event was? Because to begin with, there was only one event at the Olympics. I reckon it must have been running. It was running. It was 200 metres. It was called a stadion. Which is where we get the word stadion from. There we go. So 200 metres naked. And that's the first event. And then they start to sort of phase in other events. Some of them we recognise today. Right. So there's lots of different lengths of running races. I'm talking about four and a half K, something like that. But then they had a really weird running race that was called the Hoplittodromoi race. Yeah. Where they run dressed in full armour of a soldier. Which I mean, it kind of makes sense because every citizen in the ancient Greek world was also a soldier. There wasn't any kind of professional army. Being ready to fight was sort of a natural and normal part of what you were supposed to do. So to have a competition to run around in all of that stuff, I guess it kind of makes sense. So they're wearing the shin pad, the grieves, which is the sort of the metal shin pads. They're wearing helmet and they're carrying the shield, the Hoplittodromoi. Then you had some wrestling. Pan crattion. Ah, the pan crattion. So it translates issues. Pan all crattoth power, the all power event. It's an ultimate fighting. So it's WWF, like kind of in which there were only two rules. You couldn't bite anyone and you weren't supposed to gorge their eyes out. Well, that's a silly rule. Bar that. Straight for the eyes, chef equals Andy. What is that? I'm not fighting her. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I never seen a woman with shorter nails. And then things like discus throwing that we'd recognise. Sure. I was always discus thrower at school. Yes, all the kids that were chubby were always the discus. And the kids who were tall, like my best friend were the high jumpers. Yeah. And I remember my best friend ran up and she went under the high jump. And my discus just always fell to my ankle. So whenever I hear discus, I just sometimes brought it back to 1984. And turns out I was really good at running. I came first in running. I'm a very good sprinter. I'd like that to be made public. All right. I think the one that we'd find the most difficult to be looking at today, is that they had the long jump. I did that too, and I enjoyed that. But the long jump, where they did it in ancient Greece, was that you had these weights that you held in each hand, that you sort of threw forward to help you go forward. And you did it as three standing jumps, each accompanied to the music of the flute. Oh, come on, we should bring that back. You had to sort of have the elegance of a dancer, the strength of an athlete. And the willingness of a belly flopper. Exactly. It's brilliant to see, you know, and I put it better myself. Correct, rather than doing a triple jump, while someone's just sort of playing a bit of foray in the corner. But the one, if you were a lazy man, the event you went for was the chariot race. Okay. Because you were said to be the competitor because you owned the horses color. This is the only way a woman could win an event, isn't it? The guy who was actually driving the chariot round the course and won the ring. No recognition whatsoever. Don't even know their name. Who cares? It's about the person who owned the horses. So, Kinista, who was the queen? Kainiska. Kainiska. Kainiska. Who was the queen? Who won the Olympic Games? The first and only woman to win an Olympic event, perhaps? Yeah, she saw Snuckin. She was the sister of the King of Sparta. That was only because she owned the horses. Yeah, and it wasn't really allowed even then. She wasn't supposed to be doing it. But basically, it was the way she and the King of Sparta could put two fingers up to the rest of the Greek world at the time and go look you Greek men who think you're also hard winning all these Olympic events. My sis can win an Olympic event. It ain't that big a deal. There's a statue with an inscription saying Sparta's kings were fathers and brothers of mine. But since with my chariot and storming horses, I, Kinista, have won the prize and proudly proclaim that of all Greek women, I first wore the crown. It's quite a good inscription. The whole sanctuary was littered with these statues and inscriptions from victors of different races and different areas, and they were all doing Yarschuck's boo, I'm better than you to everyone else might kind of around them. So it was a continual kind of monument wars going on. There was nothing subtle about the ancient Olympics. No, so was this like made popular when people didn't have a war to fight? Because it's all very rare. And I don't know what we did before. That's a really good questioner, because there is the sort of Olympic truth, isn't it? There was a truce, but it wasn't the kind of truce that we make it out to be today. Tämä on näyttänyt, että kaikki on tullut tehtävä. Täällä on tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa. Tämä on tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa. Tämä on tullut hausnaa, että joku on tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa. Tämä on tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa. Tämä on tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa. Tämä on tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa ja tullut hausnaa. Vaikka se on, että se on, että se on, että se on, että se on, että se on, että se on, että se on, että se on, että se Vaikon älimentti. -Yes. -Shhappy, what do you think the winner would get in a Olympic event? -Oh, it must be gold of some sort, the metal of some sort. -It looks on the shiny. -A live chicken. -Oh. -That's not like the live chicken. I think everyone should be given the live chicken. What did they actually win? -It was a crown made of olive wreath. So you weren't winning gold or silver. What you were winning was immortal glory. -Play us. -Play us. -There we go for having one at the Olympics. There was no second or third probably. That's the other really important thing. It was winner takes all. The stakes were high rate. The description of what losers were treated like when they went back home. There's a great phrase of ancient radical Pindai who talks about the fact that even their mothers wouldn't look at them. -Oh. -And you're like, "ouch." Going back to that idea of it being an agon of a contest of a struggle. It was winner is everything. -Do you know what? I used to live on this estate. And on my estate was a rowing champion. And my son was only about three at the time. So we went to this person's house on our estate because he was very nice and he let the kids on the estate come to look at his medal. And I took my boy and I said, "Look, we're meeting a real Olympic champion." And he got it, his medal and he opened it. And my boy went, "Oh, only bronze." I was not welcome at that house anymore. I actually moved from the area. It was the most mortifying moment. -Would it be a lot simpler if there were only gold medals given out? -Exactly. -Oh, only bronze. -But this was the bronze age. So surely all bronze medals were gold medals and prize the first. -Shabby, what do you think happened to a woman who might have snuck in to watch the Olympic Games? -Oh, gosh. I tell you what. I'm thinking of Iran. It's only recently that it allocated certain seats to women and football stadiums. I don't know what they did. And what would they include? Just something horrible. Shave their heads. -Well, that I'm afraid. -You chucked them off a mountain. -No. -But then there was another woman who got away with it. -Yes. -Because she managed to basically go, "Look, I'm related to this winner, you're supporting that winner. I had such a good lineage that basically they couldn't bring themselves to chuck that up. -What a gamble to take, though. I've sort of lied to get into clubs before. But to know that they're just going to grab you and throw you off a cliff. Did these people just really, very strongly believe in an afterlife? -There was definitely an afterlife. But the rules are the rules about the Olympic Games. And don't forget, this is all happening as a religious ceremony to the gods. So the big worry is that if they break the rules, they'll offend the gods. -They'll offend the gods. -They're offending the gods. And if there's anyone you don't want to offend, it's the gods and the king of the gods. -Yes. -Do you know I get it now? If I was there, I'd just throw myself off the cliff. -Straight off. -Yeah, just, oh, the Olympics were on. Let's go, girls. Just felmer and Louise it off a cliff to appease youth. -The name of that lady was Calipatera, I think. And yeah, she got away with it because apparently she was related to an Olympic boxer. -But the whole story around it is that she'd done brilliantly. She'd dressed up in disguise as a man. No one could recognize her. And then she got a bit excited at the match. A jump to for the barrier. And as a result, tripped over and exposed herself. I mean, you were one of these things. You were so good, you were doing so well. -Then you pouted in a selfie. -So how do you think they got around the problem of women disguising themselves as trainers? Because, you know, trainers were allowed to be in the kind of, not shoes. -You know I was thinking of shoes. -I guess some trainers wouldn't necessarily be really butch with that. They'd just be knowledgeable. Did they ask them questions regarding there? -They basically made everyone naked. So trainers, naked, people competing naked, everyone naked. Basically, they wanted to see the D in your ID, essentially. -Okay, so we've talked about the ancient Greek Olympics. Can we fast forward a little bit to the ancient Roman Greek Olympics? Because you've heard of Emperor Nero. He really wanted to compete in the Olympics. Now, Shabby, do you want to have a little guess of what he did to make sure that he could compete in the specific year he wanted to compete? -He made up a rule that certain games you could only take part in if you were an Emperor. -That's really good. It's not far off. -I think that's genius. -The first thing he did is he moved the games from the four-year calendar. He just moved it two years. -Okay. -He went, "I'm coming this year, so hold it then." And then he just made all the events things that he was good at. -Like the emperors, javelin, the emperors. -The emperors. -Poetry. -Poetry. -You think? -Really? -Yes. -And then he competed in the chariot race and what happened, Michael? -When you were saying he was competing in the chariot race, we didn't win, but because he sort of fell off. But he was declared the winner. Because as we all know, if he hadn't fallen off, he would have won. -Yes. -In fact, miraculously, he won every single event he entered. He did his tour of engine grease that summer and crowns all over him, like. -Something like 600 prizes or something stupid, isn't it? Like he competed in all the games and just won every event in every game. And apparently, people were paid to cheer for him or they were sort of lost. They were locked into the stadium. They couldn't leave. -That's great. Sounds like one of my birthday parties. Sorry. -We had a friend, she had a parler get parler game. She'd always come to parties and insist we played this game. And it was always a quiz based on her life. So she would ask people questions. And the answer was always something in her life. So see, if you knew her well enough to win the quiz. And she always won the quiz herself. -Genius, isn't it? -I mean, I guess from the arrow, it got to come home with all the medals, claiming to be the greatest Olympian of all time. -Shapy. -Yes. -There was a very famous chap called Eric Keon, I believe. I suppose that pronounced it correctly. -Just about. -Just about, that's no. Eric Keon, come on, give him the right one. -That will do. -Eric Keon, okay. Eric Keon was a very famous champion. But his victory in the wrestling was somewhat unusual. Do you want to get to why? -He tickled them. -No, I love it. -He bit them. -He did not bite them. Basically, he was dead. He was winning the fight. But he was a. he was strangled. -Oh, god. -So it was one of those things where it was all about not giving in. So Eric Keon was being strangled by his opponent. But he instead of trying to get the guy off his throat and went to break his toe in his foot. And so the other guy, just as Eric Keon dies of his fixation, goes, "Ah, I can't take the pain in my foot anymore." And kind of gives up. The dead guy was the one who hadn't given up. -Oh, I see. -So he was the winner. -Yeah. -So they crowned the dead guy and sort of parade him as the veteran. -I mean, that's a fantastic ceremony. That's the podium you want to see. -And holding a chicken. Oh, absolutely. Good chicken with a crown on his head. -Was the alive guy really annoyed at himself? Damn it. -Yeah, the line goes, "Ah, I've already had lasted just a little longer, my foot." -I would have been dead. -My mother won't ever look at me ever again. -He gets home, everyone's like, "Oh, there's the loser." -It's all a bit much, isn't it? -It would have been absolutely intense in your face competition. There's another story. The names, I think it's Krueger and Damon McZenner. I think one of them has grown his fingernails very long and gouges out the intestines of the other. -Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. -He's just going to go, "Come on." -They've been punching away each other all day, neither would fall over or give in. We've got to get this thing to an end somehow. So they were each given one move, one punch, who could do maximum damage. So one of them goes in the face with a massive punch. Other guy sways a little bit, but doesn't fall down. Then the other guy goes in with his hand into the stomach up, pulls out all the intestines. But was disqualified because that was more than one move. -So another dead guy gets crowned the victor. -I love the idea of VAR, like some sort of video ref kind of game. Oh, that's actually two moves. -Two moves. -So you're disqualified and the dead guy wins. -The rules matter. -How does the Olympics come to an end in both senses? Firstly, is there a closing ceremony? Do they get the spice girls on taxis to drive around? -So there's sort of final rituals again, because it is a religious ceremony and that has to be closed off and sorted out and kind of everything. And then everyone disputes. So nothing like the kind of closing ceremony that we're used to. I suspect most of people would just be like utterly exhausted and fed up and tired. I'm pretty full of all that 100 oxen meat and would be lying around dozing in the sunshine with a bit of indigestion. -The true spirit of the game. -The typical post-glasto kind of feel, or it is. -Hand over for sunburned. -Absolutely. -We watched a man kill another man. -Yeah. -And also, what about the toilets? I mean, how many people will we talking here in this stadium? -So, yeah. -No toilets. -Those two rivers are for your everything. -So they camped out for five days and pooed in the river? -The Olympic village would have been pretty sorted. -How does the actual Olympics as an idea end? Because it was revived in the late 19th century by Baron de Coupeter and Hitler obviously gave it a nasty fascist twist. But how does the Greek Olympics stop being a Greek thing and just sort of, you know, drifts off? -What I mean carries on under the Romans and the only thing that really kills it off is the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity. -Okay. -Because once you've got the Roman Empire officially Christian from the end of the 4th century AD onwards, the Olympics are a religious ritual to the pagan gods, so they can't continue. I mean, they do a little bit because everyone's like, "Yeah, but we really like the Olympic games, so maybe we'll just dial down the pagan bit and we up the games bit." But they slowly peter out and then officially all pagan sanctuaries are abandoned. So this is about 400 sort of CEAD. -Yeah, the Olympics probably actually probably limp on for maybe another century. -So essentially, the Olympics, the story of the Olympics in the ancient world is 776 BC to about 500 AD, which is what, 1200 years? I mean, that's a really impressive run and then revived later on. So fair play. -I think that sort of brings us actually to my favourite part of the show, which is the nuance window. -The nuance window! -This is where our expert historian is unleashed. They can geek out for two uninterrupted minutes, Shappie and I go quiet and just bask in the wisdom. Michael, what are you going to talk to us about? -Well, I want to take us back to that thing we've been circling around a couple times, which was what it was really like to be at the ancient Olympics. We have to imagine this was summertime in ancient Greece. 40 degree, he probably the biggest conglomeration of Greeks that ever came together anywhere in the ancient Greek world. So maybe 40,000, 50,000 people. They're camping out around the sanctuary of Olympia. They're intense. They've got those two rivers to bathe in, poo in, do everything. They've all probably brought some animals with them that are also pooing that need feeding as well. And so 40, 50,000 people for five, six days are camped out in the blazing Greek heat without any sanitation. And there's going to be tons of food sellers there. There's going to be not just the athletes punching each other up and of course those hundred oxen with all their throats slit and blood everywhere and then being cooked on a massive barbecue. But there's going to be historians reciting their histories. So Herodotus recited his histories from the steps of the Temple of Zeus. So they politicians banging on and trying to prove how amazing they are. There was a politician who in 416 BCE decided to pay for everyone's dinner one night for the 40,000 people just to show off his largest. So this was actually not a very pleasant place to be. It was even an alter dedicated at Olympia to Zeus, Apomuyos, which translates as Zeus, the swatter of flies. So you can imagine there must have been a bit of a fly problem there as well. And we have a couple of statements from ancient sources. Plato, rocked up at the Olympics, couldn't get a tent, couldn't find anywhere to stay. Epic Taters, a philosopher, goes on about, "Oh, don't you hate the din in the heat and everything and it's awful." And my favourite of all of them is a guy called Alien, Ancient Medical Alien, who went, "You know what, if you want to punish a slave, you send him to the Olympic Games." And that is how I'd like you to remember the Ancient Olympics. And the women still risk getting thrown off a cliff. That's the place and they didn't want to be anything for an easy life. I would just sit at home and wait for them to come home and run my bath. Is that really a separate wife of me? How you do what you like? I just want to go back in time and wash everyone. Feel free. You can't bear it. Well, I'm afraid that's all we have time for today. All that's left for me to do is to say a zused-sized thank you to our lovely guests in History Corner, Professor Michael Scott from University of Warwick. And in Comedy Corner, stand up legend, Shapi Korsandi. And to you dear listeners, join me next time, when you're dead to me for another chat about something completely different. But having done all that strenuous exercise, I'm now off to do my warm-down stretches and have a soak in the tub. Until next time, bye! Are you fed up with the news? Top jobs and the new cabinet have all gone to horses and get pulled glitch. And I loved it. The skewer. The skewer. The news, chopped and channeled. I will crush the British people. You wouldn't like her when she's angry. Well, there's nothing new about a labour leader. Who the hell are you? This trust? She is. It is calling for more tax rights. Yes! Everything you need to know, like you've never heard before. Thousands of lesbians were striking today in a dispute over pay. The three-day walk-out could delay the processing of up to 60,000 gay women. The biggest story is with a twist. Surgeon food prices. Coming up. Washing up liquid. 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