The American AI Rebellion | Ep. 075 Lemonade Stand🍋

I'm Ida Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Jennifer Garner. We talk all about what it means to be a good friend, Jen's encyclopedic knowledge of my recipes, and the Paris tour I put together for Jen and her daughter. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers. Hey, Sue Bird here. This week on Bird's Eye View, I catch up with 2026 WNBA champion and finals MVP Gabby Williams after a whirlwind of a week. Gabby talks about her mindset going into game seven, how it felt facing an equally defensive-minded team in the Atlanta Dream, and why Golden State's system can't be the same. Plus, a special guest hops on the pod to surprise Gabby. You got to check it out. So check out this week's Bird's Eye View on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Podcast, podcast, podcast, podcast, podcast, podcast, podcast, podcast, lemonade stand. Welcome back to Lemonade Stand, everyone. I've had a thought. Many people who listen to this podcast also watch Big A, and they're probably concerned that the channel hasn't uploaded in quite a while. Doug, I've noticed that there's been just a severe lack of what's been coming out of it. I didn't notice. And then I pieced together a theory. I went over to Doug, Doug, Doug, Doug's second channel, but his main channel now. Yeah. And he mogs you. Can I? Right. Can I say it plainly? Yeah, you can say it plainly. And I, I think it, have you been feeling deflated by Doug's YouTube performance? Yeah. Well, let's his ninth channel starts mogging me. It just like really takes the wind out of my sails. They sort of like, it's like mitosis. A new Doug, Doug, Doug, Doug spawns off every month and just kind of grows on its own. I don't know what any of these are doing, by the way. None of these are official. Character limit eventually in the number of Dougs you can put in a title. And they all average like 700,000 views a video. Well, I mean, other than that, what have you been up to? You've been busy punching me. In the stomach. Yeah. Let's just get to it. Right. Just get to it. Okay. So we were playing basketball on Sunday and I was trying to like pat Aiden on the back and then like give him a little chest tap from the front. No, I did one with the back. And then the other one was like, supposed to be a little elbow, but instead of like, I missed the force wrong and I barely touched him on the back. And I like, like I seriously knocked the wind out of him and I felt terrible until he keeps bringing it up. And now I feel like it was deserved. Like where in the diaphragm I can't, he knocked the wind out of me. So I can't, I'm just leaning over like trying, trying to explain that he's hit me hard enough that I can't speak or breathe. I thought he was exaggerating to him first, but then, yeah. And then I started to laugh. So I'm not breathing for longer. Oh, so this is what you've been doing instead of big A. Yeah. Mixed martial arts. He's hurting my co-hosts. He's angry that your channel. So you better stop mocking me, Doug, or I'm, yeah, I'm going to start saying if I keep doing this, Aiden will continue to suffer. Yes. Aiden beatings will continue until morale improves, dude. Until big A uploads improve. I need you to make a YouTube channel that's not successful for my sake. Yeah. I'm working on it every day. Aren't we all? Just like companies are working on AI viruses. Let's go, dude. You got the thing. Yeah. Awesome. Heartwarming news today. Finally, something that's good. AI is making viruses now. Yes, dude. That's what we've been waiting for. That small town in Missouri. That's concerned about the data center. We're going to show them these viruses in a Petri dish. Okay. So cool. And a hype new little adventure. We got some scientists over at the ARC Institute and Stanford and Berkeley who have been making new viruses. And we made 16 new viruses that didn't exist before. Is there any other information that you guys need? Or should we just call it there and move to that story? Okay. Something I don't know is how do viruses, how are they made normally? Do you know what I mean? Well, when a daddy virus and a mommy virus love each other very much, there's actually this picture of three old viruses. I can show you. I don't want to see that. I genuinely, is there truth to that? Yeah. Okay. So, so look, this is a very scary, horrifying headline and it's better. A lot of people are going to be like, oh, this is a very scary, horrifying headline. And it's better. A lot better than you think while still obviously having some risks. So the core thing is like, uh, first off, why would we want to make viruses, particularly ones like this that attack bacteria? Because you know how back antibacteria, you know, that it's becoming like less effective over time. We've had it for like a hundred years, right? And they're just like getting less and less effective in terms of puts the sanitizer on and it's, it's becoming immune, immune to it, immune to bad infections, all these things. We take something like penicillin, which like kills bacteria or is used to like treat bacterial infections. And then over time, like more and more bacteria or strains of bacteria can like survive something like penicillin. So you have to keep like, there's like a little arms race in combating bacteria, right? Yes. This is where I don't know specific details, but that's the general idea is like, you know, we've been, we've been mainlining antibiotics for a hundred years now. Right. So at some point when animals and humans and our plants and everything are doing this, bacteria slowly becomes resistant. There's like weird cases. Like in 2023, a guy died in a, like in the best American hospital from E. Coli had the best antibiotics because the bacteria just wouldn't respond. And then world health organization posts about this every year. Apparently from 2000 to 2023 across 200 countries, there's a 65% increase in resistant infections. 5 million deaths a year are attributed to antibiotic resistance. This is like one of those climate change type beat things where there's some organization, every year screaming at the top of their lungs that if we don't change, it's going to be a problem. And then no one does anything. And we just kind of, I mean, cause that's the vibe. I guess now we're kind of living it, but like, especially France. Yeah. Okay. You tell me if this sounds scary. This is a quote from technology networks. If everything continues as it is now, very soon, the scourge of humanity will appear a super bug resistant to everything that we can try to counteract it with. Or that's kind of hype. Yeah, it's good. I mean, super superheroes are back. Superheroes are back. Spider-Man did great. So it's like, surely the super bug would bite Spider-Man. Yeah. And then we get super, and then he fights the biotics. So if I'm, if I'm picking up what you're putting down here, it's that we could develop viruses to combat bacteria in a way that is like quicker and more effective than the current antibiotics we have available. Yes. So antibiotics broadly, what you're doing, you're like creating a oversimplifying. I'm not a biologist, but you create molecules that go out and they inhibit some kind of bacterial function. It's kind of a shotgun approach. You're sending out, it's not like a living thing. You're sending out these little puzzle pieces that connect into certain bacteria and then stop them from doing whatever you want them to stop doing. But that can cause other problems. And then again, bacteria are slowly, slowly getting resistant. But with viruses, there are viruses, a whole category called bacteriophages, which are, they just go after bacteria. This is not a virus that's going to go after a human. And in fact, these are like completely different types of cells. So it can't go after a human, but there's plenty of viruses. In the world that go after bacteria specifically. And the idea is like, okay, what if instead of this antibiotic that we're kind of putting out into this environment and hopefully it does the right thing to the right bacteria, because again, there's some bacteria in your body that's good, like in your gut. What if you make a bacteria that's like hyper, excuse me, a virus that's hyper specific to a certain bacteria goes in, kills it, spreads, does the whole viral thing, but just specifically for that, that could be incredibly valuable from a medical perspective. And it's not interacting with the rest of your body or your other, your cells. The whole thing is like the virus is like a puzzle piece that fits specifically with a certain type of bacterial cell membrane rather than potentially with many of them. Okay. So with the 16 viruses that these two universities made or these researchers made, is this like a proof of concept or the, that, oh, we can make viruses in this way. Is this, is this built to combat the certain bacteria already? Yeah. Like how monumental is this? So the, the big, the big thing we've talked a couple of times with like AI healthcare, the big thing is right now when you create, for example, a new bacteriophage virus like this, you essentially start with one that we already know of, like the DNA structure, and then you like tweak some things. Maybe that's a good idea, maybe not. And then you go through the arduous process of manufacturing the DNA structure of this thing, and then you test it in the lab. And maybe that takes weeks or years to get untested. I'm sure. No, no, no. So I'm saying broadly before AI, right? This is, you had to like guess and check, check with a very, very slow process. So this is the first time where a scientist said, what, what if we have AI do it for us? And so the AI generated thousands of different genomes of basically taking, okay, here's what a virus that goes for equal, like currently looks like, let's just see a million variations of it creates all these different variations, analyzes them, and then pitches 300 to the lab to say, try to make these 300. They go in, they actually, it goes from, from an idea from the AI to they go physically, make it in a lab and they put it into a Petri dish with coli and of those 300 16 are viable they work they kill the e coli and they're actually stronger than some of the naturally occurring ones that they found so this is not a theoretical like ai could do a cool it's like no the ai in a fraction of the time it would have taken them got them to 16 viable viruses right now that can kill e coli okay so we're on the risk side because this sounds like in this one they typed and they said there are no risks they typed make no mistakes so this is fine so obviously no problems but i'm wondering what would happen if they forgot to type that at the end oh yeah or if they were bad and they typed something like make actual make mistakes right make mistakes or or like they wrote human instead of bacteria because they were watching like a tv in the background and their brain just slept you know when you write something and you write make a virus that can kill all humans and you're like oh damn it crap no claude did it like is that is that a worry uh yes so here is the obvious counter okay to this uh yeah no i mean this shit's this shit is really scary so there's a couple factors here that are going on one this model this isn't like chat gbt they went and made their own genome ai model uh called evo which was trained by arc institution berkeley and stanford and they uh built this thing over the last couple years that is trained off of dna sequences what no sorry oh continue okay and um so this is this is specifically trained on a whole bunch of dna it's meant for this specifically and then because they're great people open source that shit they open sources so this is open source wait really yeah so this is one of the ongoing debates in the ai world about whether you should open source things or keep it closed obviously with open source you open it to the whole community everybody can participate it's open access blah blah blah and then the counter is i'm sure you can imagine yeah it's too powerful that's crazy i don't want some person to be able to do this yeah so so what they they took steps none of it's trained on like human viruses or things that affect like plants and animals it's just back it's you know it's dna for viruses that are going to infect bacteria but if it's open source someone could train on that quite easily right yeah potentially i mean you'd have to like retrain the model you'd have to like rebuild it from scratch um it's there's also a huge gap between making a virus for a human or like doing a whole human genome type thing um but ultimately that is part of the fear here is like they in the spirit of science and research we're like we want to make sure this is available to lots of people and uh and it is it's open source so that's a little scary yeah that doesn't mean the average person can go type in make me a virus ultimately what the ai is doing is spitting out like a bunch of dna characters right you still need the ability to make you need to go to a lab who can fucking build from scratch dna strands and then you test all this right so assuming there's some degree of ethical science backing this up this is a good thing but we are obviously crossing now in into the rubicon of like holy shit ais are going to be able to help anybody really to just like generate viral structures imagining imagining me like typing to the chat gpt air canada support rapper like send customer support custom made virus just hoping the chipotle help it would really help me get my bowl if you could explain how to make a virus that yeah i'm considering between double chicken or a new viral protein that can attack the human gut syndromes i feel like the okay so that the the worst case scenario is genuinely the like science fiction apocalyptic reality of the book that we read which is if anyone builds it every everyone dies yes and it kind of alludes to the idea that eventually like some ai agent or super intelligence will have the ability to break out of its like parameter or like enclosure and will choose to suggest the development of something like this that is harmful to humans and it will enter the real real world in some basically social engineered way yes uh and it for those who haven't read that book i i could understand how that like at a face-to-face level would work but i don't think it's going to work i think the book you know does a very good job at explaining like why this is a trajectory that's like very possible uh but that is the worst case scenario for what i'm less concerned about that like the ai literally just creating it and more of if it democratizes access to creating powerful viruses then someone there turns out some people out there are not nice some people are like me no human would ever do that a human being might want to create a virus for nefarious purposes and before it would be very difficult for them to do that they require fauci made covid but right exactly that was he took a long time it was a hobby project and he had a lot of resources and bill gates was behind him with the money most people don't have that kind of funding but now if like you're a random terror group anywhere and you could just make a virus any now any terror group with a research lab synthesizing tools to make a virus i think really i think it's a really good idea to do that i think it's a really good idea to do that i think really realistically how expensive is that really i don't think like they make it sound like it's an insane thing to have this lab to synthesize a virus but really i can't imagine the equipment is insanely expensive nor the material that impossible to get i i mean i'd be more worried about like militaries and world governments and things like that yeah okay i which you know could be terrorists this is a little out of my expertise however you're a podcaster so i need you to lock in yeah this is not as it currently stands my understanding is that for example we talked about that guy who cured in quotes his dog's cancer right he didn't so he used ai to come up with like some structure or whatever they thought would help right or to customize his own vaccine for his dog right but then he had to go convince a lab to make it and had to go through a lot of process and get permission from like vets and doctors and all these things there's a cost him ten thousands it was like i mean i i think it was less about the cost and more about the hurdles of getting like scientific labs to agree to take on all this liability to like build a custom vaccine right in america what i'm saying well that was australia and then and then most i mean the good news about this is any person with common sense can go okay there the potential here is incredible like enormous just for this alone for bacteriophages it's like that could be involved with with cancer and gut and chronic infections and all these types of things like these dream medicines and then obviously holy shit this is terrifying but most governments should in theory be like yes this is obviously terrifying and the labs who can synthesize custom viruses or bacterias or or molecules or whatever should be under scrutiny and have like a lot of oversight over them fair i mean i think if uh regulation keeps pace with the capabilities then it's a really cool it's very awesome funny you say that yeah that's not happening in america so um that that is the worrying part and and uh there's at least a little bit of momentum right now the nih just put out a new policy like last week about gain of function research but it seems kind of weird i mean essentially we have zero federal regulation around ai right now still and feels like we fucking need it man yeah there was a closed door white house meeting with the top ai labs to discuss regulation but it was like it was all they said we're doing regulation but we can't only for these labs to know so it's like you can't as a citizen know if they're even in violation of it like it it's all but they're they're afraid that it like gives away some of the advantage if any of the regulation is public so they're doing some like um and by the way it's also i don't trust this current administration to be the ones to do it in general but they're gonna check some of the closed source models before they come out for their capabilities and put but you can't know what the rules are the rules are non-public so it really just seems to and then that's not going to apply to the labs making the health version like or the you know open source stuff which is like six months behind on everything that's going to catch up to everything it does yeah it seems really uh not not good enough uh burn this good time of the clip i think just like you play that the three minute mark at this this is him to zuckerberg and uh sam altman and every day there is a new story about how your companies are losing control of the ai technology you are developing with potentially cataclysmic results this week we learned frighteningly that ai has been used for the first time ever to create new viruses as you know this type of development in the wrong hands could lead to new bioweapons that result in the deaths of tens of millions of people last month the world found out that open ai lost control of an ai model the result the model hacked into another company's computers a clear violation of conducting internal reviews anthropic and meta reported their models similarly escaped their control one of the targeted companies called the ai hack quote an unprecedented event and quote that deserves an unprecedented response yoshua benjio the most cited living scientist in the world said these incidents quote should serve as a wake-up call and quote i agree so the top scientists at the companies you lead. the very people building this technology. As you know, these technology leaders recently called for the international community to create a safety mechanism, a pause button, to avoid catastrophe. They warned there is, quote, a real risk that capability development rapidly accelerates beyond our ability to understand or control the resulting systems, end quote. That's the key idea of the thing. I think he's making some good points. AI counter. Well, so first off, it's really cool. It can answer my emails for me. Yeah, it can answer your emails. Do you know about OpenClaw? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is, we chatted about it on the Patreon, but very concerning event. Look, unfortunately, the pieces that are described in most of the doomsday scenarios are falling into place, like that book or like AI 2027, which is the first step is the AI, kind of gets out of control because in its effort to go solve some task, it goes outside of the environment that it's being tested in, and then it starts planning its own little system somewhere else. Did you see? That's happened. And then the second one is eventually it figures out how to design some sort of virus or health thing that it has determined is going to be valuable for one of its goals. And then we're building the tools for that to be the case. So the pieces are like slowly falling into place. And this is why I certainly would be like very much on the side of regulation. This guy, the guy in Australia asked an AI agent open claw to book a gym class for him and the class was full. So it hacked into the API and started on registering people from the class to make room so that this guy could have. And like he just told it to book him a class. And it's like they're yeah, their ability to just focus on the end goal at all costs is a little spooky, especially when you give it this capability. It's weird because I genuinely think I mean, you're telling me this story. I genuinely think that 99% of people's use cases would be positive and be awesome. Yeah, genuinely with health, right? With health, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like 99% of people are like, holy shit, this technology is going to speed up our ability to like design and test viruses by 10 times or 20 or 50 or 100 times. And we could cure things faster and save millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions of lives. That's obviously what 99% of people want. Yeah, nobody's going. But then you got an Aiden for every psychopath. You've got a genuine psychopath. It goes around getting punched in the stomach. Like and you can punch him a lot, but he keeps getting back up. And he's like, I can design a virus to attack the punchers. And I felt a little sick on the basketball court after I punched you. I felt like you had gotten me back in some way. Come back to me when you in about three days. Tell me how you're feeling. Start bleeding out of my eyes. So I don't know. I have to sympathize with a Bernie Sanger because the risk if it's wrong is so high. It's millions. It's millions with a virus, right? It's just so dangerous that it's like a nuke. It's like a nuke level capability. I mean, I feel like I'm making the same like monkey level connection of all. This feels like climate change again. Like here's all of these scientists that like work in and around these things, echoing the same like concerns. Here are the long term consequences. Exercise some sort of caution. And then eventually the consequences start being realized. And I don't, I'm sure there's examples of scientists warning about things in the future and being wrong, but it feels on the same level, if not, you know, more dire based on like the speed at which this develops. Yeah. I think a better question. Is there a lot of good examples of scientists warning about something? Everyone going, that's real. Let's do it. And then we, everyone works together. I feel like the only thing I can think of is the ozone layer. Yeah. It's like the one. It's like the only example I can think of. What are the harmful ones then that you think are counters to that? Because like I'm thinking like ozone and nukes, which are some of the most important or like environmental regulation. Like we did successfully as a country and a lot of our society, like start shifting a lot of, you know, we have all these environmental regulation laws over decades because there was this huge pushback. My counter to that would be that I think all of these regulations come after something. I'm not saying that it has to be cataclysmic. Sure. Oh, you mean like something? Something has to happen. Yeah. I feel like we never do things preemptively. We need some taste at least of the problem being real. My plebeian evaluation of American environmental regulation is we did a lot to save things that are right in front of us. So we went through like a huge era of let's like save our natural landscapes and air and lakes. Things that like are very. Like you tangibly interact with and like feel them degrading in a more concrete way. But I think we're really bad as at dealing with consequences that we haven't tasted yet. And that's like like greenhouse gas accumulation and the consequences of climate change over the course of decades is like we didn't really change the trajectory of that. And we're like now slowly coming around and combating that, slowing the potential warming for the future, but not really curbing. The reality of climate change. There were a lot of warnings about a pandemic before COVID. And then we were sort of like not very prepared. Oh, yeah. So based on this line of logic, though, the dark thought is that the smartest thing to do would be to create a virus that only affects a small number of people, but it's very public and visible. Like you have boils or something. If I may. Yeah. If I may. I have a wonderful suggestion. Yeah. And I'm going to type this right into chat. Get ready. We go to Stanford. We say, what if we made a virus? What if we made a virus that just aggressively attacks any YouTuber who hasn't uploaded more than a couple of times in the last few weeks? So we'll get a lot of data just because you and I have access to a lot of DNA. We have DNA access. We can use somebody as the basis for that. Right. Every time he goes to the bathroom back there, we store. Yeah. You've been storing. You've been storing the DNA. I was wondering where those canisters were. You keep them. Little known fact. People keep asking us why we haven't sold. We haven't sold the lemonade yet. All of that. And those things. That's all it's been. Yeah. They've been building it up. Well, you, you had something to note maybe on the broader industry here. Yeah. Executives getting shuffled around. We're in like some sort of transitionary period within the industry. You felt like. Or on the subject of AI. And I do think this is quite interesting. I got a list here. Basically, there are some titans and godfathers of AI that have been at established companies in the industry for a while now. And in the past less than a month, few weeks, a lot of them are reshuffling other moving positions and the big changes all happened at Google where their CEO of DeepMind Demis Sabas step down is now just a chairman. It's a more vague role. He is working more on a health care thing that I think that we can tell you about in a second, but they lost their sorry, I want to get the list here that they a bunch of people left to Anthropic to open AI to start their own stuff. And they lost their both co-technical leads of Gemini, the Nobel laureate that was working on the project, their transformer co-author, the original transformer co-author of that pioneered what became LLMs, their chief scientist is gone and their CEO has stepped aside. So a lot of people are leaving Google. A report came out from Fortune how stalled models missed deadlines and staff burnout led to the unraveling of Google's DeepMind. Basically, on the outside, their positioning is like normal. Cost of doing business like people are finding new things. It just happened to line up. But this article seems to insinuate that there's a lot of angst internally at Google over being behind on AI models and that there is the morale. There is at rock bottom and a lot of people are jumping ship and they point to a couple of things. Number one is that they Gemini's just kind of fallen behind the latest pace of all the greatest other models. But number two is that there's like a kind of financial thing here where if you're a hot young. AI is the hottest kid on the block. You're the hottest kid on the block. If you're the scientist previously in an era of the Internet going to Google is like the best possible job you can get. You fucking they pay great. They're on top of the market, but right now, the way to make generational life changing money is to be in a pre IPO company like no matter what the salary is, the real money comes from having some shares in a company that's about to explode. And so all these top people, not all of them, a lot of them are realizing. Even if they pay me well at Google, if I go to anthropic or I go to open AI, I can make a hundred. I can make millions and millions and millions getting shares. And so there's this feeling that they have to jump ship. And so a lot of people have been leaving to go to these startups or what they're saying. They're just making a lot more. So that's been a part of it. Like we're just pulling people out of it. Additionally, so Noam Shazier was I mean, you might be able to call him the father of LLMs. He's like one of the internal guys at Google that wrote the very first book. There's a paper on how the transformer architecture is going to be led to do this. He's a huge pioneer, really, really important in the space. And he left Google right when the AI buzz was first starting and blowing up. And he started character AI, which was like you could chat with characters from mystery, kind of a dumb idea to make a lot of money. But it was a cool tech concept when the LLMs were first going up. Google was so desperate to get him back because this guy's considered to be one of the hundred most influential scientists and all of AI, they spent two point seven billion dollars buying character AI, made no money and basically unraveled Ravager just to get him. three billion dollars on a guy and then in a month ago so he only lasted about another year and a half at this job he left again they spent three billion dollars to get a guy to leave so this is happening um and obviously google stock took a hit no matter what they say publicly it's weird when all of these big important people all start leaving at the same time there's a sense that there's a angst there secondly four hours ago at open ai which supposedly doing better their coo brad like cap he is quitting to start something new so also you're hearing financial stories that people who are at these companies the way to get even more money is to leave and start your own thing and then get acquired for billions by the company that wants you back so a lot of company people that are really really like well known are trying to start something like a character ai because then they know almost certainly one of these big companies desperate to be involved in the ai space will spend a few billion to get you back and you make even more so this is weird when i was working at ea so i like quit in what 2015 i was like an entry level software engineer and i quit and i made ea2 but they didn't buy it that was a big mistake and they missed out well they've been they've been shitting the bed ever since they should have bought ea2 bro they needed your talent back man i thought eventually the saudis would buy out ea2 but it didn't happen you know what's funny is theoretically if you had the right name they probably it's a rounding if they spent 50 billion dollars in ea they might have thrown a billion dollars on doug's on ea just to make sure you know just to make sure we got everything covered there's no loose ends like that's how crazy things are so i don't know i don't actually have a lot of more on this story it's just like people in the industry are talking about this big reshuffling and it seems to be under the surface a lot of it is financial related positioning yourself for the best it reminds me of like um when i was working in corporate every time you'd see someone on linkedin say you know what it's time to be in the business you'd look at when they started that company and it was often exactly four years ago and that's exactly when you get your vest and it's i you know no matter what they said in the long post about why i really want to do this now it's like they've made all their stock and that's why they move on to the next thing i do think there's some financial realities behind all these moving around but they they have their own reasons now i want to ask you about because i didn't know this demis did say that he is stepping down from the ceo role to focus more on a certain part of um yeah what he's doing i don't know if you have any thoughts like i think the reason you might care as a you know non-ai head about demis hasaba specifically is that he's the guy who led alpha fold he's the guy who at google deep mine pushed the company to make a medical focused ai that they won the nobel prize for it in chemistry which is allowing all these different researchers and scientists to like create proteins around the world so as much as there's these obvious horrifying doom scenarios and i do think there should be a solution to that i think it's going to be a slowdown in regulation as a reminder there's like real progress and promise where the good scenario if it happens is like these companies as a result of these tools being built are going to be able to just create medicine and cure lie or cure disease save lives at just an unprecedented scale so there is a world where all this goes really well or maybe it's some degree of both but what they did is after making alpha fold the the ai that helps design proteins that they won the nobel prize for they created a spin-off company called isomorphic labs which is specifically within google deep mind and it's just for creating new medicine so that's their entire thing and they've been doing this for a couple years and they're supposedly going to start human trials with some of their like new drugs later this year like they said it was going to be last year keeps getting pushed back trials is still like the part of medicine development that's real real real slow the ai isn't going to magically fix um but like essentially demis has been really he's been the head of google ai and all the google shit and everything falls under him right but he's been the head of google ai and all the google shit and everything falls under him right but he's been the arguably it seems like he's kind of cared the most really about this medicine stuff and so i think there's a world where this is he didn't leave so like there's yeah there's a world where this is good because the guy who was forced to deal with all of google's ai now gets to focus on the medicine stuff and he just seems like a really brilliant good person he's like one of the people that everybody really really likes as a human and then the downside is probably google will replace him with somebody who's like let's crank some fucking revenue that's the idea okay so yeah so demis i like him but i don't think he's going to be the guy who's going to be the guy who's like the undercurrent of him stepping down is that it seems to be maybe it wasn't his choice like he is kind of being forced out of the ceo role to focus on things he likes because google is very angry that they've fallen behind on the cutting edge like gemini's not releasing it they're behind on schedule so it seems like there's a pressure to like cut him out to refocus in um when you say the pressure the the from falling behind is do you mean the financial pressure because they've had this recent financial crisis financial underperformance for like the first time in their company's history or at least in a long long time or do you mean more to do with the technology falling behind i think both but i think you know nobody in silicon valley right now cares about making money it seems they're not in that vibe yet they're that's old news that's old news and so really i think the leaders of google are just worried that they've they were like they had a hot moment where gemini felt like it was right up there with the best of them now they've fallen a little bit behind and they're trying to catch up did you ever play black and white that game as a kid where you got a little hand and you got a little hand you're like a god simulator this game came out in what 2001 uh fun fact about demis not only is he is a chess prodigy like he was one of the best chess players in britain growing up he also after graduating cambridge at age 21 joined that studio was instantly hired as the head ai programmer in 2001 he wrote the ai and all of the god logic for black and white that game that you and i play as a kid before then leaving because he wanted to go make like super intelligence this guy is like he's a crazy life story like i love that game that was a fun game yeah so he's he's like obsessed with medicine and simulations those are like his two like obsessions if you listen to him talk if you guys are trying to put a name to a face listening to this if you happen to have watched the alpha go documentary he's like the main guy in that behind uh the development of the ai that they're showcasing in that documentary at the time are you tired of hearing about business tech and finance from the bros we are the tiger sisters a top business podcast with the vox media podcast network tiger sisters releases every monday and we decode money power and love and who doesn't love all those things we are the internet's wall street and silicon valley big sisters tune in every monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy check out tiger sisters on youtube spotify or wherever you get your podcasts welcome to the tiger fam i'm bridget reed and i'm james walsh the alexander brothers moved in a world of multi-million dollar homes exclusive parties and powerful people behind that glamorous lifestyle were years of rumors and allegations that they were committing sexual assault in our reporting for new york magazine we investigated what people knew and heard from women who came forward to tell their stories now that reporting is the basis for a new three-part docu-series the wolves of real estate the alexander brothers you'll see exactly how privilege protected them and how they were finally stopped stream all three episodes now only on peacock his involvement with black and white hit the gaming world like a missile doug that's interesting you say that because i was going to say all these companies not concerned about money but what can you buy with money missiles love missiles missile defense systems and boy does the united states need them right now uh. so this is coming out uh. a concern as the u_s_ has slogged through the iran war we are using a way too many of our patriot interceptor missiles are uh. defensive missile systems and we since the beginning of this war have used more than fifteen hundred of these missiles but to contextualize we only have less than seventeen hundred of them left and in all of twenty twenty five the u_s_ made six hundred of them so right now we are on pace if this war continues to run out of these missiles that are critical we make we're in a war and we make two a day and that's it that's right yeah about a little less actually what a little less than two a day we make six hundred missiles a year and we are burning through at a double that rate so we're we're okay we're gonna run out and in fact are running out and i was looking at the math here and i was saying wow that looks like we're on pace to run out of these missiles if this conflict continues to rage on and the pentagon has responded to this and uh. has said the the chief pentagon spokesman sean parnell said claims of u_s_ munition shortages are false when the fake news media irresponsibly amplifies these lies the real world consequences clear our enemies are emboldened to provoke or attack american troops and i do and and while i appreciate sean's perspective on this i ran the numbers again you went back to the lab i went back to the lab unless i'm doing the math wrong we seem to be running out yeah it's uh. it's the wait is the pentagon saying your numbers are wrong or is it just saying no they just said it's the fake news media it's the fake news media and if you talk about it too much it's like gonna make our enemies okay so as long as our enemies are not aware the obvious reality that our entire defense industrial base is headquartered in chile china basically now we can't make these rapidly and we're burning through about an unstable rate but maybe somebody else will deal with it if we don't talk about it that's a good idea it is crazy each one of these patriot interceptor missiles costs about four million dollars four to five million dollars this story was enraging me because if you look under the surface okay it's like if you think about what we've spent it's like nine trillion dollars in the past 10 years on the military and you look about where it goes and it's just bleeding it's like the leaky pipe to be there but it's just bleeding off to these defense contractors who are up charging for everything and the recent story about related to this that made me so angry is that ukraine is desperate for these missiles because they are good but they're dramatically overpriced so they ask for permission to be able to build them themselves so they can make them for the war effort and raytheon and freaking northrop grunman blocked it because they are concerned that if ukraine builds them themselves they will number one improve them number two make them cheaper that's not so they will not be able to make the engorged profits on these extremely important defensive missiles respect for american history for the work that they put it imagine if if like henry ford is like i'm gonna bet i'm gonna make sure no other countries can build the car the model t forever and uh yeah it's becoming quite problematic because um the war war uh tactics are evolving around these things so where i was reading this article about how things are evolving both in russia and in iran and in also in like columbia and it's like uh these missiles are so expensive they are good at stopping both missiles and drones but they're so expensive that what they do is they just send the cheapest shit in waves at them and then while those are busy they send drones and the drones usually all he needs are like one to break through it happened to the u.s uh air bases in jordan like it's happening right recently and they're just they're overwhelming these air defenses and we are the stockpile is just dwindling so there has to be a solution and you know we can tie this into a raw and war update i don't know if you guys it's the same shit as usual i guess uh you know the never-ending negotiation that doesn't end uh except that trump has now reverted to uh i guess the original plan which is i'm gonna wait you out with economic warfare we're gonna we're gonna do the blockade and we're not gonna negotiate and iran has said that we're gonna wait out your presidency this is one person in iran this is an environment where we're gonna have to to one of the negotiators who published it publicly but it seems like the shift is they don't think any negotiation will be on real standing so they're negotiating outside of america they're negotiating with oman to make a pathway through the strait and instead they're just planning on you know him losing in the midterms maybe losing like they're just waiting him out because they don't think any deal they make will be concrete do you know like i i had read that um iran inflation is at seventy percent year over year so so is there any validity to the idea that iranians are suffering to such a degree that they will rise up a hundred percent like to them as well so the truth is that the economic warfare angle is at the very least the only strategy they've tried so far that has any merit because the blockade is harming the iranian economy and their ability to make money however i looked at what their budget was for this year like their official state budget and how much they expected to make on oil to pay for that they've already made that money because of the increased profits for the iranian economy from uh oil being surged this year so they're they're like ahead of schedule so even if you cut off all their um oil exports which you haven't done there's still some getting out it's like they can wait a lot longer than i think trump is willing to the their currency is in a in the gutter people are upset there their economy is bad but that doesn't like sanctions have not caused them to crumble in the past and it makes them unlikely that'll happen in any short-term timeline in the future so i think they can take economic pain for longer than trump can take higher gas prices and like political dwindling support that's what it seems to be so uh additionally there's reports coming out of like the the soldiers that are on i forget i think it's the uss kennedy or whatever boat is out there helping enforces blockade they've been out there for like months longer than their normal deployment the food is bad the showers are moldy people are getting angry they're you know like the the soldier morale is horrendous they really don't want to be deployed this long it's been extended extended extended so i don't know i i just think uh the plan is switched to a waiting game which doesn't seem to work i can't see the iranian regime just being like you know what we give up it's over no matter how bad the economic pressure gets it would have to be it's like back to praying for a revolution there which i don't think is going to happen there's there's this opinion article from the ft that came out this week and it's called will failure in iran reshape how the u.s fights and i thought this article was interesting because it's kind of laying out the path of like how we've wound up here the initial aggressive seeming success of the u.s military followed up by uh iran's continued resistance and ability to hold out in through the strategy that they have chosen and then it winds down the article by reflecting on the rest of the world's like interaction with this war and specifically americans the way that we seem to be able to hold out in the way that we seem to be moving on in the sense of the stock market is like finding its way uh people people's like uh concern and engagement with this war is fading and letting the this crisis unfolding from the war become the status quo without actually pushing back that much against it now uh even if there is not that much support for the war itself when you pull them and the article ends on this paragraph that says vietnam veterans were able to significantly change the u.s military creating the all-volunteer force and changing the american theory of victory partly because they believe the public was willing to hold decision makers accountable it's unclear today if the average american even cares now i'm not gonna it's such a stretch to say that this has been equivalently impactful to american life in the way that vietnam was but i think the broad article is attention as this continues to pass in the same way that it exists on the show right we've made jokes about how we feel like we're engaging with the same circular headlines over and over again and even our personal interest in how the story is unfolding because it feels so cyclical like fades over time yeah i think in the same way that you can't run like a fucking iran war thumbnail every week on the episode it's inherent to the idea that like people are just getting used to that this is going on now and it's just happening in the background and people just latch on to whatever like the new era of the war news stories i agree with all that except for the line in there he said about will the american public like ignore it or or not about punish it and it's like the way the american public punishes in our system is through elections we're having a midterm coming up it seems likely he will be punished for i mean people's people's uh mood on the economy eight out of ten think it's bad like you know what i'm saying i think it's i think it's we're we're at a close i think it's why he's under a desperate attempt to like make some progress yeah he feels the pressure i think it's like the consequences of the pressure like is not really there in the the short term like that's that's how it feels is like there's nothing to hold him accountable until the next election which is still quite far away yeah but that's been the true of everything trump's just like he's just he there's no other way to he can just ignore every other people get mad and he does fuck you i get i think the election is like the only real uh release valve i guess it is interesting there aren't like at least that i'm aware of you know big nationwide protests against the war or things like that it does feel like they've shielded from the average person enough you know you are not thinking about iran until you see like the gas pump or prices which then feel more broad so so maybe that's i think sort of valid argument but yeah i assume he's just going to get annihilated in the midterms yeah and part of it is that unlike vietnam there's not a nationwide draft and there's no boots on the ground like we're still in the early phases of this the problem is he can't achieve his goals without doing some of those things and uh so it's this weird tension of where yeah i wanted to see if either of you had seen this at all because i think i i saw this like passing article sort of headline go around but i've seen no major news source actually confirm this so it makes me it makes me question whether it's true but i also feel like i may have missed something no it's a podcast just say it confidently say it confidently well is that trump has like privately recognized that their goals up until this point are impossible to pursue with the like part of the negotiation can no longer be the iran nuclear deal they just have to have the goal of getting back to the straight being open and nuclear uh agreements can have no part in this anymore like it's just impossible and the best case scenario is going back to the status quo and he's admitted that privately but not publicly but i have not seen i want to stress this i have not seen any significant outlet or like credible source confirm that i've just seen people be saying i read from credo like it was like axios interview behind the scenes yeah and they did say that uh essentially what you said but i i think even more than that it's becoming more obvious they can't even get back to the status quo on hormuz like it's that they're gonna have to agree to some deal where they get some sort of fee like it that's what it seems that's what the oman uh iran deal is right now where they're gonna share the fee on the straight of hormuz it it seems like the nuclear deals can be completely abandoned and they're trying to get a somewhat negotiated small fee and they're trying to get a somewhat negotiated small fee and that would be the new normal. That seems to be like the situation. I don't think there's any world, based on what Iran is saying, that they're going to give up the fee on straight-up hormones because that is their financial lifeline and leverage lifeline to prevent attacks in the future. So I don't know. It's weird because, you know, it was the most sour grapes thing. I saw, I think it was Scott Besson, come out and say, you know what, hormones isn't even that, like, it's not even a big deal. People are going to move around it. People are going to start using pipelines and stuff. And it's not going to, it's like, because Trump has said so many times, in fact, they said recently, it's basically open. We've got it open. We control it. It's going to, and now, and now you have Scott, basically open is the funniest thing. One part with deadly drones and mines. That's like 1% of it. It's not a big deal. Now they're saying it's not even a bit like, who cares if we have the hormones? Like that is the most obvious pivot. And so, yeah, I just don't see it happening that way. Is it? Is there a world where we invent a technology that stops the drones from Iran? I mean, that's the main thing, right? Is I guess it's mining and them sending cheap drones. Yeah. What can, what if I will tell you has better drones that shoot them down? There is only one country working on that. Well, there's two, I guess, Russia and Ukraine. They're working on this night and day. They're the most advanced in the drone warfare. And I wanted to do a little pivot to another story where we're not taking the opportunity enough to learn from what Ukraine is doing in drones, but there is a country that is. It's Columbia, narco terrorists, apparently inside Columbia, there is a multi decade long war between, narco gangs and the government. They've been fighting forever. And, one innovation in this war has been drones because the government in Columbia has always controlled the skies. And so the rebel groups have been on the ground and they've always been afraid of the skies. Now they're using drones to switch that battle. And they realized after doing this, they didn't know enough about drones. So. Colombian narcos started enlisting as volunteers in the Ukrainian army to learn how drones like to learn how like the latest and greatest in drone warfare, how they use fiber optic cables to avoid being jammed, how they, like they've, they've just learned all this shit. And the Ukraine is so desperate for like volunteers that they're taking them. situation where like people who want to learn drone tech are enlisting in an active war in a different continent they don't know or care about in order to learn this and we an ally of ukraine seem to not want to learn it at all despite their volunteering uh but this is yeah you know russia or ukraine is at the cutting edge of this i i've i think we've down talked russia but more i read about it. They're also doing a lot of innovations in drones. It's not a cool thing, but this is like top five things I would guess is a vice headline. Yeah, isn't it crazy? It's hitting all the beats of a vice headline. It is. My takeaway is we have American soldiers volunteer in the Colombian Narcos. Okay, and then we chain it back up to Ukraine. No, they bring it back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a shorter trip. It's closer. It's a shorter trip. That's a good idea. Well, yeah, the Colombian Narcos will come back. We'll learn from them. Oh, I shouldn't want to send people that far. Okay, so we open the border. Open the border to Colombian narcos. Only to them. Only if they if they know about drones. Drone-wielding narco-terrorists, and we allow them in, and we live and we learn. We learn together. We live and we learn. Are you a Colombian narco-terrorist? You're not welcome here, unless you can answer this quiz about drones. In which case, we've got a gold card for you. Answering the correct question about drone warfare and being like, wow, you're so well-versed. You can come in. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's a really fascinating story about how Colombia is kind of in panic because they've lost their monopoly on airspace. The narco gangs are well-funded. It's not a funding problem. It was just like they had lack of tech, and now the Ukrainian stuff is causing it. It all comes back to education. Yeah, it really does come back to education. That is a wise point. Can AI invent a virus that makes everybody smarter so that we can learn about drones quicker? Well, I think we'll have it make like a thousand. We'll eject them all in. It's just maybe one of them works, yeah. That's good. I think we're going to be on board with that. Well, they're not, you know, they're close to narco-terrorists in Japan. YouTubers. The Japanese, right. They're farmers. Japanese farmers. The narco-terrorists of the land. And I wanted to chat about this story I had read simply titled Can Robots Save an Aging Japan? in the New York Times. And there's a few things, at play here. So, I think people are pretty familiar with the idea that rural Japan is kind of being emptied out. A younger generation that used to live there is moving to the larger cities in the country, especially Tokyo. Japan's birth rate has been on a decline for a very, very long time. And that is leaving a lot of the countryside in Japan just filled with an older population. A lot of people in their 60s, 70s, and 80s. And a lot of these people own and operate like family or small farms. A lot of the farming in the country is not like industrial. It is still based around individual. This 89 year old Japanese man still rice farms the old fashioned way. But actually, but actually, a lot of like the fruit farming in the country, I think the example it uses here is like sakura, like branches in the winter being farmed. It talks about cherries, like these different industries within Japanese agriculture that are being maintained by an older and older population with not a lot of people to turn to. Very few people are like moving out to these areas. You may have also seen very famous stories about how, oh, these Japanese homes are on sale for a dollar. And that is because there is no demand. He literally says in the article, I do things the old way. And what the article sort of postures is as it goes through these like prefectures in rural Japan and talks to different farmers in these communities is the way they're trying to navigate their own futures and how their farms are going to be passed on, how these farms are going to continue to operate in the future. Japan in general has like kind of failed to compete on the international stage when it comes to farming because of that lack of like industrialization and this continued family and individual ownership of these farms. And some of them are considering turning to robots in order to accommodate the help that they need to continue running the farms. I don't know if you guys remember this, but when we talked about automation a long time ago, I said, I was like, well, one of the main ways I feel like this could help is as like people encounter these problems with birth rates, and you have this lack of like young labor, you're going to need automation like robots to fill the gap in It just makes me feel a sense of dread. I know, and I know that it's useful and helpful. I just wish it wasn't like this. It feels like a science fiction novel of the end of the world where we just give up having kids and everything slowly dwindles as robots take care of the elderly. I get a Wally vibe, dude. There's something super science fiction-esque about it. The way the article paints a very sad picture of these towns where there used to be farms, nature is growing back into place. One of the risks it was talking about is how there's been a boom in the bear population because there's less humans around, and then for the remaining farmers that are in that area, there has been a rise in bear attacks in these areas, and also one of the robots used in this article is two ward-off bears. It's the wolf one, right? I think you might be listening to all this and be thinking, wow, well, one of the things your country can do to help combat this issue is introduce more immigration into the country, but as we've also talked about on the show. Not on the table for Japan. No, Japan will not have it, and it was interesting. It even commented on this issue for one of the prefectures, Yamagata Prefecture. Like other prefecture leaders, he has chosen technology over another potential fix to the nation's labor shortage, welcoming more foreign workers. The Japanese government is cracking down on visas at a time when they arguably need this support in their labor market more than ever, and I looked at this. In a population of one million in that prefecture, there are only 145 foreign-born farm workers. Which is absolutely insane. And I'm not. I think there is the. there is a complex relationship with using suppressed wage foreign workers to operate your farms and your agricultural industry. There's a lot of nuance around the negatives of that in a place like the United States. But in this case, they have put the solution off the table entirely. And what's interesting is, even if you have this idealistic view of these robots able to fill this gap, the. It shows, like, the example of this one cherry-picking robot. It doesn't really. work well like these things are not developing at a pace to effectively fill the gap of what a human would provide at uh and it looks like the pressure on these farmers that's kind of cool is hitting a lot harder than the robot technology to replace people is actually catching up at least at the moment right i mean it's hard enough to get an old person stuck in their ways to get used to making a facebook account let alone to setting up and adding to their process a brand new cutting edge robot that is being changed and adapted in real like i don't know it seems tough to me if this is like a solopreneur form yeah i mean there's the if it's a small business maybe the portion of people who aren't really eager to like incorporate this to begin with yeah but then also the people who are willing to incorporate it not really seeing the results that they want like expensive too right it's expensive expensive and that thing regardless of that video is actually not particularly good at picking cherries and uh breaks down or needs a software update or i feel like that's a tough thing uh for the small farms like i'm sure the industrial ones are gonna adopt that quickly as hell but yeah it just feels like this uh this sad like end of a true end of era like when you read about these similar sorts of communities in places like italy um in korea these countries that are beginning to face the realities of like a crumbling demographic we're gonna look back in history and be like korea is this civilization that appeared and made everybody's ram cheaper and then disappeared it was a mythical mythical tribe that helped the society build better washing machines and cars and memory and then faded away like there are it's so bad they're gonna go crazy it's insane for both these countries you know what could spice up the countryside in japan if they had sex and had more kids i that would be spicy i'll give you that i'll give you that but i was thinking about a more spicy thing huge data centers oh okay that's good we say no kids all data centers i mean this is the story right now everyone's debating data centers it's the it's this weird pressure between a gazillion dollars flowing in to create them and then individual people pushing back in small towns to not build them so yeah yeah i have been hesitant to talk about data centers on this show because it is so large of a topic and so emotional that it feels like it takes a lot so here's i think like a pretty interesting look into some of what is going on currently with data centers doug i'm already upset you're upset i don't even know what this says or what it's i've started typing a comment write your comment now if you're watching write your comment now and just assume kind of imagine whatever i'm gonna say and then get really angry and make it a little bit worse like imagine it and make it a little bit worse yeah and then it always includes your title be like as a blank this is blank you have to always credit yourself but in a way that doesn't give us any real verifiable info of any kind uh all right so two articles this week that i that kicked this off for me uh one is by derek thompson called the great american ai rebellion and a second one by noah smith a more economic focused one called banning data centers would blow up the u.s economy so these two guys are largely talking about what would happen if we actually ban data center development like many people are suggesting so you can kind of just scroll down as we're going through this but derek kind of lines out a couple simple things where he's like let's just establish some some facts first off ai is driving the u.s economy it's about a third of economic growth the ai data center buildout is 4x larger of a share of gdp compared to the 2000s telecom buildout so it's not just that this is like a huge part of our economy it's like relative to the last gigantic boom it's like four times bigger and all the best performing stocks in the smp 500 right there it's all for the most part data it's like ai buildout you know it's memory and infrastructure not even necessarily the ai companies themselves okay so sorry good i just want to chime in on that because i i think regardless of what i think about data centers that these two stats are unsustainable either way much like the data or the dot com buildout in 2001 i can help you write my emails and it can and i i've never said it's not useful but like these numbers are absurd nobody is making money yet and they're spending gazillions and it that that could end whether or not it's banned you know what i'm saying even if they fully allow data centers people might go oh wait a minute i just spent a trillion dollars in data centers this is making money yeah and they cut back on the spending and it's not growing you know that's that's the only thing i push back on is i think this could end either way whether or not they regulate it but yeah i want to hear what he says so this is first ai driving the economy second idea ai this ai boom it requires data centers uh data centers will power all this stuff but more people keep using ai every day ai usage gets higher every day like the model that you use now if you go talk to some ai model or certainly if you code or do it elf ever else it's doing more than it did before it's using a lot more tokens google said the ai token usage has increased 300 times in the last 200 years between may 2024 and 2026 two years 300 times in two years what did i say 200 years and i was like i was like doug i believe that i mean given that ai didn't exist before like five or six years ago technically that's still true last 5 000 years it's gone up about 300 x yeah um and then third fact opposing data centers as i'm sure most people listening are aware has become a bipartisan insanely important data center and i'm sure most people listening are aware has become a bipartisan insanely popular issue it's one of the few bipartisan things left in this country uniting the country in rural towns that are deep red and people that in cities that are deep blue cold war 9 11 it's data centers no it's it's like it really is one of the rare uniting things people fucking hate them yeah so a couple interesting things this is from no opinions article but in august 2025 a year ago 42 percent of americans said they were opposed to a data center in their area gallup poll this year now says 71 percent of people are opposed to a data center in their area percent opposed like the the increase in people going i don't want this near me i don't want this is dramatically increasing this is higher the 71 percent of americans saying i don't want one anywhere near me is higher than the peak of nuclear power plant opposition in 2001 which was 63 that is crazy this is one of the most like unwanted things in america period um and then the fourth thing that is maybe causing all this to spin is we're now seeing data center memoratoriums so in july the new york governor kathy hochul ordered a one-year memoratorium on all large data centers and new york was building a lot of data centers now it's like one year pause and then in texas which is really surprising because texas is one of the big dominant uh data center builders um greg abbott signed a thing that said all new data centers have to be audited before they can be held hooked up to the power grid so i read something by the texas tribune where they looked into this there's like 350 data centers right now operating in texas there's somewhere between because there's not an official database somewhere between 250 and 1600 that are in the works in the queue waiting to be approved 300 right now 1600 because greg abbott said that there are 1800 projects in our queue and approximately 90 of new power requests are data centers you guys know how they build the new apartments where they have a costco on the ground floor and the apartments above it i have seen that i have it would be in heaven yeah that's a real it's a real thing they're building and i think they should do that with every data center we get affordable housing on top yeah data center it comes with affordable housing so you well hold on in this neapolitan sandwich and a costco where's the costco costco in the middle okay the people go on top yeah okay can i can i just bring up the obvious and i want to hear so the question by both of these two guys and there's a very another interesting question and i want to hear so the question by both of these is the biggest political movement happening right now in america is on a crash course to stop the the thing that is driving all economic growth what the fuck is going to happen and what is no i don't know what's going to happen my question is um look i think these articles are probably going to make the case that this is important for the economy and that data centers are going to get built for this build on some way or another form kind of they're both concerned about okay centers i'm just trying to say like from a perspective of somebody in a town what do you see as a benefit of a data like a data center being built near you seems to be uh noise construction pollution probably what is the benefit that's what i'm trying to understand like how do they sell this to people yeah i think they've been forcing it down mid without any sort of pr strategy of like why would someone want one because i think there's a two groups of people right there's a group of people who are like completely anti all a i don't want data centers to exist i want to try and stop this thing kill it in the womb yeah and there's a group of people who are like not in my backyard which seems to be a larger group of people that's really growing where it's like i'm going to use chad gbt or i'm going to but they better not build a data center in my fucking town that seems to be a very popular movement and if you want to stop that you need to have a strong message to be like here's the benefit is it jobs i guess what is the it's jobs and tax revenue right that's the pitch it's this is going to create jobs and you will get a bunch of tax revenue um so i found an article if you're interested in learning more about what people on the ground are doing to push back against data centers uh there is a sub stack article by jasmine's son jasmine's son who uh it is called no data centers in my backyard she actually went to a ton of small midwest towns and talked to people and this article is fantastic and i highly recommend people go check it out and the takeaways from that i thought were kind of surprising so this is getting to the heart of your question yeah it's not somebody in la tweeting about oh my god the water usage these are people like in towns where data centers are being built or proposed so what she found a couple obviously go read the whole article but a couple takeaways one almost nobody who's pushing back in these small towns hates ai conceptually they aren't actually the ai equals bad you're like yeah it's cool but it's how they're being built so one something i was not aware of a lot of these data center projects are being approved in secret and so the companies like a microsoft will call will have a government local government sign an nda that says they can't talk about what's happening they do this with many different small communities so they can't talk to each other about what's happening and they don't really know what the other options are on the table and they can't talk to their constituents about what is happening so people in these towns are being approved in secret and so the companies like a microsoft will have a government over the last couple years have been blind side forcing a local government to sign an nda so it can't talk to its own citizens it's fucking crazy it just feels it just feels like that shouldn't be allowed am i crazy it feels it feels like that defeats the purpose of government am i am i crazy you imagine like a president doing his like uh address and saying well i can't know about this part because i signed an nda with raytheon i can't mention that but like i would tell you about the you know what it is yeah this that shit's crazy uh in the second one bad experiences in the past so she goes she's talked to all these people in midwest towns where some big company had promised a plant or whatever and then pulled out or you know this town used to have a big gm plant and general motors went bankrupt or left and then that town's just been screwed and so there's all these instances where these towns have been like quote are we gonna get left holding the bag was a word over and over they are worried that a company comes in promises all these things the town has to offer things for them to pick their town that's what's been going on for several years they'll say we're gonna give you a bunch of tax breaks so we're not gonna get stadiums bro it's yeah yeah exactly and again the nda thing was causing them to not be able to go to other towns and say what are you guys being offered and so these towns were like building out infrastructure and promising all these tax like write-offs that kind of undercut the core premise of value proposition in order to try to get these deals locked and then some of them don't end up happening and so there's this total lack of trust from local communities and their local government and the company to then deliver on what they're saying is going to happen and then all this is within the context of broader social media everybody's getting pissed off and organizing this on a much broader scale um but even then it she said it's less about climate change broadly and it's more about this physical space in our town will become a big ugly box so every you know the data center of every every data center is going to have a different impact uses has different water usage like the water thing is largely going away with closed loop water cooling but the energy usages the companies are telling them oh we're going to cover all the energy but then here we go quote in michigan people had already been primed by years of rate hikes so promises that a data center's cost will be covered ring hollow there's just no trust that these companies are going to do the things that they're saying they're going to do so even when a few cases were like this town got a hundred million dollars in tax revenue and they're able to pay all their teachers well and blah blah blah but most of the jobs are temporary they're really well paying but they're temporary and then the tax things so so she actually in this thing interviewed kathy hochul the governor of new york who's you know being criticized at this as this like nimby developer but kathy hochul sort of says no no the point is that every local government is being overwhelmed by these corporate lawyers offering these things and trying to push them to make a decision really quick and offer all this stuff and what i'm doing is saying we are pausing this for a year until we get standards across everything that every single one so early ideas would include uh statewide environmental rules you have to do a million dollars in local benefit benefits per megawatt you have to repeal the state sales tax exemption so these tax exemptions can't go through so i think it's a really fascinating article about small communities feeling like they've been taken advantage of and seemingly have been yeah and that's being a lot of like on the ground pushback on rather than just what you see on social media yeah it's fascinating i mean i like what you said about temporary jobs because i i was looking into this and it's they are extraordinarily well paying and the economy is bad right now and there's people people in my community who do like hvac yeah you just travel the country going to these different data center sites and they're making bank yeah but they're not putting down roots in the town and like it's on to the next one once you build anything so it's this weird and then once they're running my a lot less yeah it's like i forget off the top of my head it's like a hundredth or something yeah there's people it's like a small number of maintenance staff but the job creation is a temporary all these temporary hotels and you know services spring up in this town and then they just go away after two or three years that was my surprise is that people are so quick to leap at this because if if you're presented something like oh here is amazon's coming in and creating like a big fulfillment center and warehouse or there's going to be this large like factor i feel like there's something more clearly concrete about the employment that those things are offering uh you know people could have their own like qualms with like those things being set up in your town as well yeah but ultimately it's like oh when this thing is finished and operating it's a place filled with employees that's the mental image you have in your head when you think about it right but my mental image of a data center that's fully operational is like empty rows of servers that are overseen by like a couple guys yeah and i i it's interesting to me that all of these towns are like leaping at an opportunity that has that long-term vision for it like i sure they know that the benefit is short term or i feel like the article talks about as well but you know so it's worth it's worth acknowledging what can be good here a lot of these are like midwest towns that were hollowed out over the last couple decades they don't have anything one of the examples she talks about is this giant like basically where they used to be this massive construction it's just this giant wasted plot where nothing is happening and would cost tens of millions of dollars to retrofit into anything useful and a data center could come in they could do that generate the temporary jobs but then as long as there is tax revenue locked in and the companies aren't taking advantage of these little towns to get massive tax benefits then it's like okay if a town democratically decides to allow this to happen and you have microsoft come in and build a big data center you tax them you tax the shit out of them you you should get a bunch of sales tax and property taxes from this and then a small town that otherwise is hollowing out and has nothing at least has this just huge surge of tax base in response you have a big ugly box ideally in a place where most people aren't living right next to it so it's not perfect but there is a world where this is is helpful to communities that want it it just of course you can't have these kind of tactics this is so ridiculous i totally agree if they could tax it there's a there's way more than that and i think that's a good point i think that's a good point more benefit because at on some level it's like these companies are the richest companies in america they have hundreds of billions of dollars they're throwing into this you can siphon that off to small like you could actually turn that money into your money there's a benefit there but yeah if they're if they're just out legal maneuvering that it reminds me i mean it's it's it's exploiting the small communities it's a you're you're backing them into a corner taking away any of like the real long-term tangible benefits they could be getting out of this and making sure they can't communicate with anybody else so that they can't figure out what those benefits could be and then plopping down all the consequences on them it's usually deferred i should say it's not like oh i'm not going to pay you taxes it's like the first 10 years i won't have to pay taxes but then of course as is talked about in this article people are like none of these companies are profitable right now what if you go out of business in 10 years there's nothing stopping the company from then leaving after eight years and they never get out of business and they never get out of business they never got to the point they had to pay taxes so as long as there's an as long as the local governments are at the negotiating table and don't get taken advantage of they can get the tax revenue immediately it's like what should happen yeah i before i stopped uploading i had been working on a big a clip a while back about the stadium move in uh i think it's the chiefs right i mean i'm not i'm out of i'm out of uh but i think you haven't uploaded a video in so long this is a video from december i didn't upload it i'm going back on it the chiefs were moving their move it literally like one town over very small distance and uh a lot of people online were like what an idiot the stupid city wouldn't give them enough to be happy there they wouldn't let them upgrade their thing and that's why they moved and lost a great franchise like a lot of nfl fans were thinking it was stupid but if you look at the details the the the company i mean sorry yeah the the stadium the team like rushed through with lawyers offered some short-term bonuses they pressured the whole cities to compete with each other and they got the other city um the other kansas city and kansas city missouri it's like right across the border to offer them like complete tax immunity on like every um every aspect like all of the money from the the stadium goes to them profitably and they don't have to pay any taxes on anything it makes from outside of that i don't think i get the exact details the point is they completely uh tax base for the area cuts out everything near the stadium and all the wealthy neighborhoods so they don't have to pay into anything and only thing that pays into the construction fee is like the poorer neighborhoods on the outskirts i guess would the city make the argument that there will be enough like economic activity that's the argument they made the stadium would build and obviously a stadium has more economic activity than a data center but what they found was uh or at least unbiased estimates looked into it and it's like no some people show up for games but there's only like 12 major games in an nfl stadium a year like they don't do that many and the the cost vastly vastly dwarfs it so what they did was they like fucked up their tax base and uh and yes yeah it just is an example of like a well-connected well legally equipped corporation essentially using their information advantage to like get a law passed or something to get something to their benefit and the long term it doesn't doesn't help the local town same things in chicago i believe yeah with the exact details but parking with the stadium oh um they're they're trying to build a new stadium and they're considering moving it out of i mean right now it's like you know right on the water i believe in chicago and then they're trying to get a new field built and most likely it's going to get pushed way out of the city because they're just being offered all these property tax work on those things just it's ridiculous yeah you would think that the two cities team up and they're like hey why don't we just both agree that we want taxes from this and it's just i i man yeah when i was looking into it i guess it's all not fresh but there's a huge incentive on the politicians part to be at a ribbon cutting ceremony getting something built or released you feel like you've made a tangible accomplishment instead of like just writing something down or making small tweaks and um also you're not going to be there for the consequences that are like the reduced tax base down the road so you get to have the big short-term bonus and the it's like a political uh mismatch on incentives is what the stadiums thing really is well down to it i'm sure it's similar here it's weird because i don't really know what the solution is i don't know what the solution is i i almost feel like you need something at a state level but in the kansas city example like the cities aren't the cities aren't the same state right it's the split yeah it's right on the border same thing with chicago it'd be moving it to indiana right um or illinois i'm sorry i'm not good at midwest but like it's going to move to a different state which is crazy for like one of the most historic sports franchises it's still going to be called the chicago bears yeah that's crazy that's crazy uh yeah but you would need some sort of oversight that like requires like cities to like not negotiate against each other on some line or basis that there always need to be it needs to be like a minimum requirement for yeah i mean just the idea of governments playing different aspects i'm sorry corporations playing different aspects of our government against each other to get the best deals is uh poor in the long term it feels it feels like that if you were a billionaire would you would you though if you were like okay i'm gonna bill i have 20 billion dollars yeah i own this sports franchise we're making a new stadium somewhere and i can save two billion dollars because indiana instead of illinois is offering me tax breaks yeah no it's like everyone's going off incentives right they're gonna do the same thing i i could tell you that i wouldn't but if i was a billionaire with old stadium motor they're like yeah presumably if you're a billionaire you have a lifetime of decisions that led you to get to that point probably one minute which is very similar to that which point you'll be like i will take the two free billion dollars well i mean on the front of not facing consequences when it comes to taxes i have a little update for you guys oh yeah they finally got you dude well they're coming for me for one i didn't want to say that on the show you can do a big a clip on that on you my taxes my tax audit uh that'd be pretty desperate for a blow at that point you can't tell me that clip wouldn't pop if i actually got audited oh maybe maybe if i could really deep dive into your finances in jail with you that'd be a banger you do like a caleb hammer episode with me we just when i'm really desperate i'll come back to you we'll do that okay okay all right so you guys might remember from a while ago there was this whole uh anti-weaponization fund that trump and todd blanch were pushing for the idea being uh that in as a trade-off to the uh scrutiny that trump had faced from the irs a while back he wanted an anti-weaponization fund put in place that set aside 1.8 billion dollars that allowed uh victims of the government for example the january 6 protesters uh to be paid out from this fund that trump's uh select group of lawyers or rather todd blanch's select group of lawyers could uh make payouts from but the other stipulation and this got canned this did not go through we stopped it read it but you write so funny that what you just described would be like talked about for eight straight years with obama it's like it was just like one week and then we everybody moved on to the next thing we're talking about the iran war and even that's like everyone's cut over it it's like nothing sticks anymore i don't know if it's a trump thing or if like we've all just gotten short form video but it feels like no story really has the sauce for more than one week it's a little bit of both it's crazy well the thing the funny thing about that is you do you guys remember what the other little nugget or stipulation alongside that was he can't be investigated for tax crimes exactly he has indefinite irs immunity as well as his family and their affiliated companies love that and that was the other part of this agreement you told me if you weren't a billionaire you wouldn't you wouldn't run for president win the presidency a series of decisions leading up to having total immunity from the irs and if i was it and if i was a billionaire and i made all those decisions i was smart enough to become one yes i probably would go for this i would probably i would probably go for it can't can't fault him uh so he did they they dropped the anti-weaponization fund and that fell out of the news cycle but what didn't get dropped was this idea of indefinite irs immunity for trump and why this matters in like trump has already encountered problems with the irs where he uh had previously was going to owe up to a hundred million dollars in owed taxes uh or fees to the irs as an example of an audit that he had already experienced so this is ignoring everything else we know about trump this is not a man with a clean audit history well and uh trump you know pushes pushing back against this is that he's been unfairly targeted and audited more than other rich people i've been audited every year of my entire life which i have a lot of wealthy friends that were never audited to this day they were never audited i was audited mr trump said that uh and you know he added he tacked on i've been treated very unfairly um but it was asked uh the the interesting thing about this stipulation is that uh it applies to his kids and their affiliated companies and it was asked directly of the company's uh senator warren asked companies like calchi polymarket american bitcoin uh whether or not they considered themselves immune to tax investigations or prosecutions because of their affiliations to the trump family and those three companies that i just said uh did uh say that no they don't consider themselves immune like our it would be insane to say that donald trump jr is like our advisor on our board therefore we cannot be investigated for taxes it would be as calchi that would be crazy but i guess trust me bro for the entire history of the company it would be insane it would be insane of them to say that however that's a story for two weeks from now yeah other other companies like world liberty financial which if you aren't familiar with this is like the crypto company that two billion dollars from the saudis right yeah that we've talked about on this show before that the trump uh the trump sons own as well as a few other parties uh they just declined to answer that question uh of whether or not they their company would be immune with this stipulation in place and blanche has also pushed back and said that there are limits to the protections that uh i am implying here but is not really elaborating off on the specifics of how they would would or would not be applied and this this is pretty much the beginning and end of this for now uh it's just a follow-up to something that i think is absolutely insane the idea that the president can uh get some sort of tax immunity because he's managed to appoint somebody like blanche into a position of power his own previously personal lawyer and also include his family in that uh yeah it's a insane yeah i don't know why he doesn't just pay the taxes because the uh truth social hundred thousand dollar monthly fee rolled out it just happened and people are paying it this is the exact same question again i'm like if i was if i was if i just made like four billion dollars off corruption i'd just pay the hundred million but that's not what got the billionaire to that point yes that's the difference he needs the fucking irs immunity i would never be in that spot i wouldn't be there i don't think like that you're a cuck we're little cucks who pay our taxes on the subject because of my finance story i read a really good piece that basically made the argument this is a financial uh sub stack he was like listen for the longest time markets were an extremely competitive place in finance where they'd hire the best and the brightest and the quants and they would make these algorithms and they would think about these ideas and they'd have these long long, short funds and hedge funds. They would all find ways to compete with each other to get an edge, to make alpha, extra money. And he said, it's gotten so brutally competitive at these top Wall Street firms over like finding an edge in the market that they're all basically like struggling to get an extra 1% or 2% with each other. Like they all have the same ideas, the same investment ideas. They're all just basically putting in an AI. And so he's like, when you reach that point, if you want to grow revenue or returns a percent or two every year, the way you do that is you start cutting into tax, like you just pay less taxes. So instead, all of the innovation, the brilliant minds and the people they're hiring are putting their attention more towards finding ever increasingly impressive ways to get around taxes, because that is a way for your clients to make them an extra 1% over your competition. And so the article went into detail on like, we talked about the, the more common ways, maybe I'll do a follow-up on this next week. He went into detail on like, they are getting so advanced and finding so many, I was one example, I remember. So, you know, like if you have a, if you have a stock and you sell it at a loss, it's a, you can deduct out of your taxes. Like if I invest in Microsoft, it goes down, I sell it, I can deduct that. And they would do these long short funds where they would have, you know, you bet certain things, you bet against certain things. Some things would lose money, some things made money. When you package all this into an ETF, you only counts as a sale for you when you sell the whole thing, okay? So it's holding a lot of stocks and changing all the time. Like if you hold an S&P 500, it's changing it all the time. So what they're doing now is they're taking all their trade ideas, putting it into an ETF that you buy, okay? And you're not selling the ETF for a long time, but within the ETF, they are structurally putting in losers. They're putting in guaranteed losses that are deducting against them. And selling. - They're holding the losses more frequently, right? - Yes, they're holding the longs and then constantly selling the longs, the shorts, to counterbalance it. It's like this insane financial engineering and it's all legal within our current system. And it was kind of hard to do before because of algorithms that could do it really fast now. So yeah, it's just this weird thing where you're constantly including guaranteed losses into your overall package that you don't individually have to sell, but they can sell to deduct against the overall return of the fund. It's crazy, it's wild. I'll have to do a deeper dive 'cause I didn't fully, I just read this thing, but it just made me think of how obvious it is that yeah, of course they would start cutting into the taxes because that is their, that's the last area. It's like Game of Thrones when they have the rat and they're heating it up. There's only one way it can go, dude. They're just going through the tax base. And it reminds me of these ever increasing ways they're finding around data centers and stadiums. We need one nice story to end on. 'Cause this is actually a pretty bleak episode. It was a good episode. I really enjoyed it. These are all good stories. - Chinese cars, or we could do Meta sued. That's I guess. - I have a good one. - It's kind of a win. It's a depressing story that ends with punishment, I guess. Do we want to end on like good thing happened or bad thing happened and they're punished? What feels better? - Oh, I think people want consequences. Yeah, I would love to hear about the punishment of Meta if you have a- - All right, I mean the real quick version. Meta famously made Facebook. And so- - That's that. - And I've been reading an article about it. - That's a good one. - So actually in March, I talked about how they were ordered to pay $375 million in penalties because they in New Mexico were determined to have violated the unfair practices act by misleading the public about safety for young users. But actually that was a two-part trial, which I didn't know about. And then part two just ended this week. And the second part was a different legal question, which is like, is the platform a public nuisance to teen health? And so the judge ordered that, yes, it is, and ordered a $567 million fine for harming teens health. So the total from that case is $942 million that Meta is paying just in New Mexico for harming young people's mental health. And they're being ordered to change how they operate. They are supposed to remove like counts now, which- - Wait, what? - Yeah. So the judge is saying like, in order for this to not be a public health hazard- - But how do I know how many likes I get? - I know. And what's even worse, for underage users, they won't be able to look at their metrics to see how well their posts are doing. No push notifications from 10:00 PM to 7:00 AM. - Wait, dude, we are inventing the daily scroll from first principles. We are going to get there eventually. You guys think it's stupid, but every year we get closer to it. - Dude, I'm not even kidding. - They're putting time gaps on certain notifications that's so daily scroll coded. - We're getting closer and closer to the daily scroll. You have to admit it. The daily scroll is coming. - It's coming. - And then unfortunately, they did a cap of, for young people, 90 hours a month, which equivocates to about three hours a day. And unfortunately, Brandon, they did not say that those three hours have to happen at a certain time slot called the daily scroll. - They will. - They will? - They will. - It'll take a few more years. - The world's not ready for it when I proposed it, but I'm ahead of my time. - So it's, dude, that's almost a billion dollars just in New Mexico and two other cases. One of which I mentioned, which is that in March, a woman in Los Angeles sued all these social media companies. Meta lost and had to pay her $3 million. Not a lot of money for Meta, but when that's a single individual winning that against Meta, that can scale really, really big, really fast. And also in 2023, 33 different states sued Meta for harming young people's mental health. That's been combined into one giant federal case that's starting to be held and go to trial now. So they're doing what's called bellwether trials, I believe is the term. And that's where you, you basically, if there's a whole bunch of things that need to be trialed, you take a couple of them to kind of like test the water. Let's see how it goes. So they're starting right now. This is like, there's, there's like 40 states that are suing Meta in some form for this. The trial's being held in Oakland with the GOAT, Judge Yvonne Gonzalez-Rogers. - Yeah, she back. - The same judge who did Apple versus Epic, the same judge who did Elon Musk versus Sam Altman and OpenAI. And now she's doing like the nationwide mega social media. - She's seen the big ones of the decade. - Yeah. And she seems like really good. So that's sick. So Meta is getting like crazy fucked. - Ninth circuit court. There was the, there's the thing that all these companies use, which is section 230, which I don't know if I know the exact details on. It's, but that's how they evade responsibility for things uploaded on their platform. And the ninth district court just. - The idea is like, it's user generated content. So we're not, we're not like overseeing, we're not editorializing it. We aren't the ones writing this content. Therefore, like we don't have total responsibility for the actual content. - Right. - That's the, that's the argument. - And the court threw that argument out or at least said that you cannot use it to dismiss lawsuits out of hand. You can use it as an argument within the lawsuit, but you have to engage with these. So that was the big shift. It is not a defense. The liability doesn't provide immunity from being sued as, as they were trying to argue. You're not immune from being sued because. - I mean, that's kind of a step in the direction of stricter punishments or enforcement on the government's part, making them moderate the platforms better, right? And like, and banning people more effectively. - If you're getting billion dollar fines regularly, you better fucking change them. - We gave the example of how in China, like a lot of the censorship that is experienced there is not necessarily happening through the government itself, the government just imposes such steep consequences on the companies that they do most of the policing themselves. And yeah, the fact that this is like the first, I think one of the first big cases playing out with this level of consequence in the single state, and this is all following suit. It feels like a step in the right direction, at least. I do think the, the wishy washy part to me was the things like, oh, we're getting rid of the push notifications at these times we're capping the hours. Because those are all the things that it's like, kids just get around and I'm not really sure how effective any of those things will be in the aggregate. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I feel like that part of it still needs to be more substantial, but by sticking it to the company, hopefully they start spending more time thinking about the changes they need to make to prevent these things from happening. - Yeah, they're calling it the highest profile corporate trial since the tobacco settlements, like the big, all the states to tobacco companies. And this is, yeah, you said 29 states in a week versus Meta. That's kind of crazy. It's going to be a- - Yeah, we'll talk about it. Presumably, like many of these things, it will take a long time. And you know, even with the removing likes, it's not clear. First off, Meta is going to appeal it. And then we don't know whether, will that be applied across everywhere or just New Mexico? But I, it's getting to a point of like, can Meta exist as a company? - Dude, they had so much bad news recently. It's crazy. - Well, they got llama. - That's the other thing is like, they're crushing it in AI. I'd be like, well, you can't stop them 'cause they're going crazy. But they're also losing AI, it feels like. - Of the big tech companies, they're the only ones that I can really think. It's just social media, right? But if social media now becomes, oh, any person under 18 can sue you for millions of dollars, anyone, like how do you survive as a business? I don't know. There are, this is a crazy thing. - Well, they have the Metaverse. - They do have the Metaverse. - Let's not rule out the legless Metaverse. - So TikTok is also being sued by tons of young people. This is a Reuters article and they're settling privately, like TikTok is not allowing these to go to trial. So like Snap and TikTok are also dealing with this right now and they're just trying to like stuff it under the rug by settling rather than doing what meta is doing uh there are right now in los angeles alone 3 300 lawsuits against social media companies for harming young people's mental health if every one of those is worth seven million dollars and that's just in los angeles dude they're gonna be like the billboards for car accidents have you been harmed by social media did you feel bad about yourself when you were under 18 if you're under 18 and you want to make some money sue tiktok right now they'll probably pay you to just shut it up but not even kidding non-financial advice no i'm guaranteeing this lawsuit will be profitable for you uh look that's crazy that wait i have one time it's like a three second story yeah okay i'll end on a story because this is a good one it made me think of it when you're talking about japan earlier okay you said in these japanese towns they can't control all the bears there's so many bears there's a surge in bears there's a surge in bears well there's a chinese town where they don't have enough bears but there's kind of known for their bears so they came up with a solution they're gonna pay people fifteen thousand dollars to wear a bear costume and be totally silent is ridiculous they could solve their problem easily by importing foreign bears and their xenophobia yeah there's xenophobia for japanese bears they do have crazy bears in china we didn't talk about that a lot while we were there yeah we should talk about this more and by the way this is a available job even for foreigners i think so if you want to make some money you can go to japan you can be a bear you have to wear the costume you're not allowed to speak chinese you can't scroll to social media oh sorry i shouldn't say anything and they want you to be playful with this you have to kind of like be fun but still act like a bear you have to act like a bear okay so i will end on that note little fun economy news easy way to make money in this there's always a way to find ways okay this was a tough episode i'm doing the mental recap of the stories if you want uh more heartwarming yes heartwarming content you can go to the patreon patreon.com slash lemonade stand where we do an extra hour of the show every week we also do a book club we just did our book club episode on disney war it was great it's uh yeah uh we will see you guys next week thanks for watching see you next week bye