The After Show: The Suitcase Murders

From the producers of the Traders comes the All New Hulu original series The Mob. Welcome to Italy! Hosted by Parker Posey, 12 celebrities will compete in the ultimate game of power. You'll be doing jobs. Let's go! The Dondesize, who gets paid and who gets taken out. You do what you gotta do. Let the games begin. The All New Original series The Mob premieres October 26th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers, Terms Apply. Hi everybody, welcome to 2020 The Aftershow I'm Deborah Roberts and as always it's so good to have you with us and today in particular, because we've got a fascinating guest with us, who is going to help us understand a little bit more about the criminal mind. She's a special agent who just retired from the FBI, but played a major part in our last 2020 episode called The Suitcase Murders. If you saw our program, you will remember her and if you didn't, you are going to learn a lot today. It is the unbelievable story of two women, seemingly unconnected, who disappeared about a year apart, 19-year-old Jenny Gamas of Oregon, and 37-year-old Laura Simonson of Minnesota. Now there were about as far as their families were concerned, were a mystery. Until June 5, 2014, when sadly both women's bodies were discovered hidden inside two suitcases along a rural Wisconsin highway. Well, as you can imagine, local investigators initially had no idea who these women were, let alone who might have killed them. FBI special agent, Carrie Gibson, was brought onto this case, in fact she had been involved with it somewhat earlier to help put the pieces of the puzzle together and she would eventually help authorities zero in on an unexpected suspect and ultimately help bring justice to the families of Laura and Jenny. Agent Gibson is joining us now, nice to have you with us again, Agent Gibson. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you again for being a part of The Suitcase Murders, your licensed psychologist and an FBI special agent or you were until you just retired. You brought together two really major parts, I think of a of a career that can offer insight into all kinds of crimes over your 18-year career or 18-plus year career with the FBI. Tell me a little bit about how those two parts of your life work together when you got involved in investigations. So, for my standpoint, I had been a clinical and forensic psychologist before I came into the Bureau and I had a fascination with wanting to learn more about the why of a fender behavior. And so for me, it was a natural place to go to learn more about from behavior to become an FBI agent and so that was where I started my career was in Minneapolis Field Office. Well, let's talk about that because you were in Minnesota when this discovery was made. You had already been looking into the disappearance of Laura Simonson. You knew this was a woman whose whereabouts had been a mystery. How did you learn about that case and get involved, ultimately? Yes. Laura had went missing in November of 2013, her family had reported her missing right around that time frame. I didn't become aware that Laura was missing until February of 2014 when there was a report made to the FBI in Minneapolis about her disappearance and the assistance of FBI really wanting to be brought in to help find where she was at. And so it was really in that time frame of February 2014 that that I reached out to local law enforcement where the family had made missing person notification. And I want to talk more about her, but also the other victims. So let's talk about this disturbing crime scene. Two suitcases with remains of two women on the side of the road found by a highway work crew. I mean, it's just mind-boggling as an FBI agent when you first hear about somebody discarding remains that way. What comes to mind for you right away? Just really discarding them like the regarbage, just really thrown off to the side of the road. And it was obviously very sad to find two young women in that way. But we had known that Laura was missing and so when we got the reports of the individuals being found on the side of the road, I knew right away that it was Laura. And so just was a matter of time before we were able to identify her as one of victims. Yeah. So two different women. That's a one thing. I mean, it's one thing for you to find Laura. But now she is also thrown away, if you will, along with another woman. You were working with local police to try to get some answers here. So let's talk about this. I mean, it would take three weeks ultimately for them to identify Laura for sure. What did you know about Laura? She was a mother of six children. She also had some struggles in her life. Yes. So Laura had actually was a mother of seven children. And she had just lost one of her children in July of 2013 before she went missing. And so she had been struggling. She's one of these individuals that we would refer to as a high risk. Had struggled not only just with life in general, but has mental illness, had different volatile relationships, had really struggled with addiction. And they found herself in many different, high risk situations. And so when this happened for her, she was at the lowest point in her life. She was very depressed. She was suicidal. You know, this is she encounters him a month after her daughter had passed away. She thought responsible for her daughter's death. And so she really just in that point in time was very vulnerable. Let's talk about the other victim, 19-year-old Jenny Gamis. She was a teen mom when you talk about vulnerability, also somebody who was vulnerable. Folks who saw our program Friday night heard more about her story, tell us about her. Yes. Jenny, another sad story, a young female who, as you stated, was a young mother. She had, she ultimately had grown up in a foster and care environment, didn't really have any close supports to anybody in her family. And in fact, nobody had reported Jenny missing. And so when we found Laura and we found, you know, at that point in time, Jane Doe, we didn't know it was Jenny. That's what made it so challenging and she had never been reported missing. She moved around a lot and we've seen more transients. And so ultimately, when we were able to identify her, it took some time. Which is why she, nobody was really looking for her initially because they did not know she was missing. You zero it in on something though, two vulnerable women. And we want to talk about that. We need to take a quick break. But when we come back, we're going to talk about a little bit about the who the people are now, but the why is going to be the big question here we want to explore. So stay with us and you stay with us and we'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Who Killed Angel Harris, a podcast from ID. On June 25, 2011, 31-year-old Angel Harris was found murdered in Gainesville, Florida. More than 15 years later, her case remains unsolved. But on the new podcast, Who Killed Angel Harris, a podcast from ID, host Sarah Kalen, travels to Florida to uncover what happened to Angel and who may be responsible, retired Gainesville Police Detective Courtney Roberts joined Sarah to review evidence. That includes surveillance footage showing Angel with an unidentified man shortly before her death. And then the same man walking away alone soon, the search for answers in one murder turns into an investigation of five unsolved homicides. Who killed Angel Harris? Listen to Who Killed Angel Harris, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. I'm speaking with FBI Special Agent Carrie Gibson, who is giving us kind of a deep look at our latest episode for 2020 called the suitcase murders. She was involved with investigators helping them solve a mystery of two women from very different walks of life who met the same chilling fate. Police began looking closely at the digital history of 37-year-old Laura Simonson, who was the first victim they were able to identify and they were looking at her cell phone, her computer. They found some surprising things, she had been on bondage websites, communicating in online BDSM chat rooms. Agent Gibson, they zeroed in on one man that she had been talking to. They called him Mr. Handcuffs. Tell us about those conversations and what you made of that. Yes, so that was his handle for his name online and that's where he had met Laura and that's where they started their conversations until eventually they took them to direct messaging and ultimately it was all about power and control from his perspective and it was really set up for him to be the person that dictated what would be said, what would happen and for her to be subservient to him. So he would be dominant in this situation and she would be the subservient one and ultimately would be referred to as the slave, never referred to by name, very much dehumanizing to her. So this wasn't about sexual thrills for her, really, it was really a control kind of situation wasn't it? Well, BDSM is a lifestyle and I think that there's always a potential for a reelsal to be attached to various aspects of it but really at that point in time in her life she was looking to be controlled. she didn't want to have to live life because she was very depressed about losing her child. And so ultimately she fell into this submissive role. She'd been in this role before. So she knew she knew about the BDSM lifestyle. And at that point in time she just really didn't want to think for herself or be responsible for herself. She wanted someone to take care of her. So that was really telling for you. And then what was really shocking to us in our reporting, Mr. Hancovs turned out to be a man by the name of Stephen Zelech. And he was a former police officer. That was really stunning to us and our team. What did you make about that? And what did you learn about him? You know, at first I was surprised by that just like you guys were just again because we don't expect that type of behavior from one person officer. But it was very important. We learned very early on that he was a former police officer. So from that standpoint, for me as an investigator in assisting on this case, it was very important is that he knows all the aspects of what it is like to be a law enforcement officer, but also what it's like for a criminal investigation. And so ultimately he would have the upper hand potentially in a case like this because he would know what law enforcement would be looking for. Yeah, because it is about power. And he also came from a law enforcement family. His father had been a police officer, which is what we talked about. I want to point out one thing that we found to be very strange in our reporting, we interviewed one of Zellich's former girlfriends who described him from years ago, kind of a neat freak of a guy apartment was very meticulous. But then later on, when police actually went into his apartment much later, they found a place that was really pretty disgusting. I mean, just one of our folks said it was almost like a reminiscent of silence of the lambs. I mean, what do you make of that? A guy who began one way and then suddenly police see a very different scene in his apartment? Well, I think it is all it makes sense. In some ways, when you think about the obsessive nature that would go with him having to be very clean and neat in his in his apartment when he first started out, very rigid and controlling in his own life in that in that situation. And so that doesn't surprise me. And then as as it progresses for him, I think what you start to see is, you know, maybe early on when he was finding solace and the BDSM activities and the communities, he was able to keep it more controlled and contained in certain areas, right? So this home was still able to be very neat and it was obsessively neat. So you see some of those underpinnings of some of those psychological constructs that would be present that I would see as a psychologist. As time goes on now and he starts to lose that job, lose those contacts with other people that that are in his life, no one's coming to his house anymore. No one's coming to visit him. It becomes easier and easier to fall more and more into this, this other side of his life, the fantasy life, right? And so then that's where you start to see it turn into this, this scenario. As you said, the signs of the lamb scenario where ultimately he thinks it's a good option to have a female in his fridge for 15 months and that that scene has an option for him and then, you know, continuing to keep her outside after that with Laura in the trunk. And it really goes to show that now he's fully in the other life and that fantasy life and he's getting more out of that than he is his regular life. Clearly a new persona had emerged. Yeah, Mr. handcuffs. And that's where he was really embracing all that that he was doing on a carmy page and all of those contacts that he had because that's where he had the power and that's where he had the control and playing on the police connection to Mr. handcuffs. Well, one of the things that we were able to to reveal on our program, Laura and Zellich, checking into a motel together. And the next day, cameras show him checking out a loan, which is quite revealing. Stunning footage in our episode on Friday night. Talk about what you're, you and your investigators made of that. I mean, clearly it tells you a lot of he goes into the motel with a woman and comes out along. Absolutely. I mean, I remember having conversations with the investigators. Again, she was reported missing in November of 2013. I don't get involved in this investigation until February 2014. But in part of those conversations, those facts were being shared with me. The fact that she had checked in and paid cash and then ultimately he had checked out and that there was no video footage of her. And I remember asking, well, where is she? What do we know? You know, what did you find out and they just said the assumption was that she was likely from the people at the hotel, the assumption was she was out in the car. And I just said, well, we can't assume anything here. We have to try to figure out where she's at. And you know, obviously the footage, you see him pushing out the luggage cart with the suitcases. And I remember that very distinctly, thinking about that and thinking about, you know, what that could mean in that moment. So shocking. And I have to tell you, I reported on a story years ago for 2020 that had some similar connections here, too, because there was somebody who checked into a place and we saw him leave with a suitcase. And ultimately, there was a woman's body found there. I mean, it's just really chilling stuff. What else shocked us was ultimately police start talking to Zellich. He is a former police officer, so they know they've got to sort of handle him in a way that might be sort of careful because he knows what to expect. I want to play a portion of the police interview where he is openly discussing with the officers what he says happen to both Jenny and Laura. Let's take a listen. Steve Pesto, can we say the first one, which name, which name, I only know my name, I don't know which one is the first one and second one. Jenny, Chetty. Okay. Thank you. What was the last name? Gomez. No. Well, it's similar to that. Gomez. Something similar to Gomez. She contacted, was interested in, you know, you know, coming out here, she was from West Coast, let me think a moment. I had the rope on her neck and pulled it, it was hard enough and long enough without releasing it, and resulting in her death, which got way out of it, way out of it, and obviously my fault, then I'm going to pay a price for that. There's blunt comments. He's there in his security guard outfit, because now he's a security guard, no longer a police officer, but he's talking with the police as if he's one of them. And that was really intriguing to us, and obviously the police were using a tactic there with him, right? Yes, that was one of the things that we had discussed. We want, you know, when you need this type of situation, we're going to bring him in, they're going to talk with him, and we want to be able to have him feel comfortable. We want him to be able to share, and ultimately we want him to tell us what happened to Jenny and Laura. And so the decision was made at that point in time, you know, through different resources. We had the FBI. We were able to utilize the FBI's behavioral analysis unit, and one of the suggestions that the profiler had made about Morton retired FBI profiler had made was that we should really appeal to that. We should really align with him in that way, because that would be disarming. And so ultimately, when you see us all interacting with him on the video, that's exactly what we're doing. We're really trying to make him feel like he is still part of this team and really use that in a way that could be disarming to him so that he would be more open and honest in his disclosures. To keep him talking. And our team was really struck by the fact that he seemed to be sort of impressed that the FBI was talking with him. He obviously has some knowledge of what police might be looking for. Did that make it harder or in some ways did it make it easy, especially with your psychology background to kind of think how to approach him? So I think his background is a law enforcement officer. It's challenging leading up to when we ultimately arrested him and were able to speak with him. Because at that, you know, before he could hide, he could do different things. He could be more covert and know what law enforcement would be looking for. To the fact, it was really easy to be able to align with him because we were all law enforcement officers and were able to talk to him in a way that we would talk with our co-workers. And ultimately, we could see that was having an impact on him. We could see that he was enamored with the law enforcement and he was enamored with the FBI. He was enamored with my background as a clinical forensic psychologist who had worked with sex offenders who was enamored by the knowledge I had about BDSM and just ordered a rousal. And all of that led to him being very open and talking through the scenarios. Now, he always was very calm and he was always very blunt and matter of fact in his communication. That never changed. But he ultimately, you could see that that had an impact on him and it was disarming. Yeah, disarming, but also enough that he was starting to give up, you know, the details. And you know, he had the hubris there, psychologically speaking, what do you think attracted Lara and Jenny to this type of a personality? So I think for both Lara and Jenny really didn't psychologically have the strength to feel and understand what their worth could be. And so ultimately, they felt like they were going to come out. into his control, his manipulation, because in that setting, given their challenges that they had encountered, and really they're feeling that they were broken and damaged, that this was really their best, right? And he had somebody who wanted to care for them, even if it was in this slave capacity, it was still somebody who wanted them, and so they were willing to settle for that. And so it was just very sad. But I felt very connected to both Lore and Jenny, because of the understanding of vulnerabilities. I felt very connected to their psychological underpinnings of what led them to find solace in this life. They don't know their worth. And that's why it's so important that we help people understand that they're worth more than this. Yeah. That was the sad part of it. You know, you're absolutely right. He truly prayed on these women. One of the really disturbing parts of this case is it police would learn that Zellich had actually kept Jenny's body in a refrigerator in his home from more than a year and stored both Laura and Jenny's bodies in the trunk of his car for months. It was in cold weather, but then ultimately the weather warmed up and he had to try to figure out what to do with these bodies. Let's talk about the mindset here. That was actually for this case, like that is one of those factors that was unexpected for all of us. We did not see that coming, but as we unpacked the case, it made more and more sense. And so, you know, he ultimately kills Jenny in August of, I think it's August 28th of 2012. He kills Laura in, you know, November 2nd of 2013. And those bodies that are found in June of 2014. And I think that the reality is that for him, it goes way beyond concealment because some people might say, "Well, gosh, it just took him some time to deal with it, to figure out what he was going to do." And it's bigger than that. He had way too much time to figure it out. And he knew as a law enforcement officer that he needed to figure it out and still he chose not to. So from this, from our kind of discussions and thinking about this case, it was really, it became apparent, right? If you think about it through that lens of the BDSM lifestyle, they're his property. And ultimately, for someone like Stephen Zell, it just was all about power and control. And in a part of his life where most days, he had no control or nothing really fascinating happening, this represented a part of his life where he had absolute control. He had succeeded in ultimately taking their lives, which was the ultimate power and control for him. Well, as you say, he had control until he was eventually arrested and your team were able to zero in. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we want to talk about the charges that he faced, what ultimately happened, and also talk about his prison sentence and get some advice from you about women out there and maybe give us some thoughts on red flags that women need to know and online dating. So don't go anywhere at Ancient Gibson if you would stay with us and don't you go anywhere because you're going to want to hear these details when we come back. This show is sponsored by Vinted. It's officially fall and it seems like every where you look, everybody's wearing adorable fall sweaters. And you might be ready to start shopping for your own fall wardrobe. But when your closet is already full of spring and summer styles and clothes from years past that you don't wear anymore, it's hard to find the space for them. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a free to download app that makes it easy for anybody to sell their pre-loved fashion and make a little extra cash. It's a great way to give a new life to old clothes you don't wear anymore. That vintage sweater you used to love might be exactly what somebody else is looking for. And by connecting your clothes to somebody who will appreciate them you're doing the right thing for the earth and keeping them out of the landfill. Listing your pieces is easy and convenient. And once all your items sell, Vinted will create a shipping label for you. All you need to do is walk it to the post office plus there are no seller fees so you keep every dollar you earn. Give your clothes a new life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app today to start listing your clothing now with no fees. That's V-I-N-T-E-D. I am speaking with FBI Special Agent Carrie Gibson, just retired FBI Agent Gibson, who helped to investigate or solve a disturbing mystery. The case of two women murdered and left on an open road in suitcases. We covered this story on Friday night's program. It was called the suitcase murders. And we are talking not only about the dangers that these particular women faced but I'm going to give you some insight into the program that maybe you didn't get to see on Friday night. Agent Gibson, you met Steven Zellich, the man charged with those murders after his arrest. You got the impression of him, he was sort of smooth and sort of a very much in control guy. He ultimately had to fess up. He said that these crimes were an accident that he was, he admitted that he had harmed these women but said it was an accident. You've spent your career studying criminal offenders, choices they make. This man was a former police officer as we said which was even shocking to us. What did you make of him and did he surprise you at the end? I mean, he didn't really quite claim responsibility but he ultimately did tell you that he did this. Yes, it wasn't surprised that he didn't fully come forward and share specifics related to ultimately owning that it was purposeful behavior that he had completed. But I mean, when you, when I had the chance to interact with him, what became very apparent is that for him, this was really all he had in his life was this type of lifestyle. When you would read his words on paper, he sounded very intimidating, very controlling, very scary. But when you interact with them face to face, like he was really pathetic, like it became very clear that there's a reason why he was thriving on the online space and not in life. And so for him, he ultimately admitted that, you know, he killed both Jenny and Laura and he did it accidentally during breath play, a BDSM activity that is called the more of an edge play session because of the deadly nature of it. He did admit though that ultimately when he was driving to pick up Laura that he was thinking about Jenny and he was thinking about how she died during breath play and he had made the decision that he was going to do breath play with Laura, even though it had been deadly for Jenny. So we did get him to admit that part of it, which was, was important as well. But it was very clear from his behavior that it was definitely something that he had considered and planned and prepared and knew what he was doing. Yeah, and breath play is a strangulation, right? Yes. It's restriction of the breathing. Yes. There must be a lesson in this. I mean, I want to talk about warning signs for women, but when you think about somebody hiding in plain sight like this, do there stories, teachers, anything about what we can learn about people who might be lurking out there? I think so. I mean, this case, you know, taught me a lot. It taught all the all the investigators a lot. He was very calm and calculated and wasn't very anxious at all, no matter when he interacted with the law enforcement. And that was something that I think all of us kind of felt with the stereotype of, well, gosh, if he had something to hide, he would have been anxious. And the reality is, is that if you, you know, conditions yourself that this is your life and this is what you like to do, you're not going to be anxious about it because it's a part of who you are. So even when, you know, law enforcement approached him in March of 2014 and interviewed him and he gave his DNA, you know, you know, gave consent for his DNA and he gave consent for his computer to be taken. I remember everybody talking about gosh, he was so calm. But ultimately, Jenny and Laura were in the trunk of his car at that time. And so he needed to be compliant, he needed law enforcement to, to leave. And so ultimately, he did that and just being very calm and, in, in control. And so I think we, again, we have to, we have to, you know, test our assumptions. We have to understand that there's, that if we assume someone's going to respond a certain way, again, that's based off of our thoughts and our patterns, it's not necessarily based off of theirs. And so we don't really know all of that going into this. And so I think for, for him to be hiding in plain sight, he knew that police would probably feel more comfortable if he wasn't anxious. He knew if he consented to everything that they would probably feel better. He knew that if he just kept calm, that that would maybe, he'd buy him some time. Again, from a long-term perspective, this wasn't looking good because he had two bodies in his trunk and it's in March of 2014 and he's going to eventually have to figure that out. So it was so interesting to me is like that didn't really matter to him because he was so caught up in the fantasy of the BDSM activities and his contacts with females online. And again, his obsession and his fantasy base, you know, from my perspective as a psychologist kept him compelled in, in focus in a certain area way beyond, you know, his, his, what would have been, you know, seen as better judgment for most, right? Most people would have taken care of business. He didn't. creepy stuff to think that he's being questioned by police and he's got bodies right there. Well, fortunately for us, you were on this case and you helped not only solve it, but also help us understand. So, give us some thoughts there. There are a lot of women out there in the online dating world. I mean, this is very different because, as you said, BDSM was sort of different. But there are people who are meeting people online. And I'm sure there must be some red flags other than just somebody being a jerk. But give us some ideas for women who are out there of some patterns to be aware of that might possibly save them from something dangerous. Absolutely. I mean, no matter what type of forum you're in or who you're meeting, again, everything should be in this consensual place where you're able to openly talk and be able to either consent or say no to something. And in this situation, it was very clear from go that what he said is what mattered and they didn't even really have a voice. And so right there, that's a problem. Any type of relationship should be bidirectional and balanced and equal. And so if there's a hierarchy or there is a structure that doesn't allow your voice to be heard, that's going to be a red flag. Another red flag is he really wanted to isolate them from everybody. He wanted them to delete their Facebook pages. He wanted them to, you know, delete their accounts. He wanted them to just disappear. And I called it the disappear game. Like he was telling them to just disappear in their life because ultimately they were going to be his slave and so they didn't need any of their possessions. But the reality is is what what it seemed to me is that he was making it harder for law enforcement to figure out what happened. And so again, nobody should isolate you. No one should take you away from your family. No one should take you away from your friends. And if somebody is trying to control you in that way, that's a red flag and I just think it's so important to recognize that that that's not okay. That's not normal. It's not something to tolerate. Yeah, that's very, very good advice, especially when you talk about that whole isolationism. It's really scary stuff. Well, fortunately for the families of Laura Simonson and Jenny Gamma's, you were able to solve this case and bring at least some answers to them. And we thank you so much, Agent Gibson. Congratulations on your retirement and thank you for the incredible work on not only on this case, but on Friday nights episode and for being with us today. Thank you so much. Of course. And thank you for being with us. Of course, you can find 2020 on Friday nights on ABC and you can stream episodes like this one anytime on Disney Plus and Hulu. Take good care, everybody. The Hulu original series, Foni, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. My name is Sonny Cook. Ever since the accident. My mom looks different. You think your mom has been swapped out with a different woman? I know something. Okay? Something's wrong. I don't know what's going on with you. I know that I'm your mother. If that's not your mom, I just think she is. I don't know. I need to find her. Watch the Hulu original series, Foni. streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+, for bundled subscribers, terms apply.