The 9/11 Investigation that is STILL Going On...

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. Welcome to the show, Matt. It's great to have you. Thank you for having me on. Of course. Of course. So we are here. We're recording this a couple of days before. Crazy, the 25th anniversary of 9/11, which has just been like holy shit. I'm getting old thinking about that. But you know, it is a. Seminole moment that changed the country for sure. Definitely changed the world. And it also was a tragic day where just under 3000 people lost their lives. And both of you did lose your fathers that day. So, you know, I can't even fathom that all the years I've been talking about this on the show all the years I talked about it before. It's just like. Unbelievable to me that there were two buildings that used to stand right there. And now aren't. And you know, people had family members that just went to work on a normal day. I never came home. But David, you and I last year had a chance to go through some of your story. I'm going to have you do some of that again today because I was just one piece of that podcast last year just for people who didn't hear it. But Matt, for people that aren't aware of your story and your dad, how old were you on 9/11? My dad was 38 years old. No, it was a four boys. My youngest brother was born June 2001. So yeah, dude, just went to work. I was a normal day. And what's crazy is that my dad would go into the city super early in the morning to work out at the gym in the Marriott Hotel. He missed that slept in missed the morning workout. And I mean, for him sleeping in didn't mean shit, right? Like it was just he got to the city at, I don't know, probably 7 a.m. So as I remember and David and I know remembers too, like it was such a perfect day. The way I describe it because if you only know the feeling if you're in the Northeast, that transition from summer to fall, like you could feel it in the air, it was like pal, you could feel it. Hey guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe to huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link in my description or in the pinned comment below. Number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the discord link in my description below. And I got pulled out of class at about 9 o'clock in the morning, and I walked into the hallway with the classmate of mine, superintendent of my school walked into the class. I lived in Mara, Senators, he went to a small school in New Vernon, called Harding Township Middle School, like maybe 300 kids totaled in the whole school K-3. My class was considered big, I had 50 kids, and very sheltered community, I feel, and the teachers were young, they didn't know what to say or what to do. I don't even know if there was a TV in the office. I really don't know if they were watching this unfold. I can't remember. I never saw the footage in school. I walked into the hallway with my classmate, and my brother Nick, who was seven, was standing in the hallway with his teacher, and my classmate's brother. And they huddled us together, and they were like, we think a small planet, your dad's building, they're both safe, there's nothing to worry about, they're evacuating the tower. My classmate's dad worked on the 33rd floor, I had no problem getting out, and then they took us and brought us to this room, we called the computer room, it was like the luxury playing computer, gizmos and gadgets, and games like that, right? And it was bizarre to me, it was watching the kid get pulled out of class, and it was like every 20 minutes, you see moms and dads running down the hallway pulling kids out, and my mom didn't come to school to get us. And moms and dads coming in, they were dads too, yeah. So a lot of people who either weren't in the city yet or were on their way and turned around, came, like everyone was freaking out. And so, I sat in this classroom, no one in the school knew that my dad had called my mom, and so I can kind of backtrack, so leading up to 9/11, my dad had what I consider a spiritual premonition. And my dad came from very humble beginnings, my grandparents came here right after the war, World War II, from Italy, barely spoke English when they came here, wearing Italy. My grandfather from Parma, my, yeah, grandfather from Parma, my nun knows from Noveli, and so, came here after the war, and lived in Fort Lee, New Jersey, and my dad had a sister who died as an infant. And aunt who died of ALS, so about two weeks before 9/11, he woke up in the middle of the night screaming, pointing to the foot of his bed, my mom woke up with him, and he was like insisting that his late aunt was standing there healthy, holding his infant sister, and like, that was his, they were like telling him to come. But if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day, because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button. If you haven't already, I really appreciate that. Also, the like button's a big help, and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below. Some crazy shit. Now, didn't you know, I mean, you were young. I didn't know this at the time. No, I didn't know this at the time, but your mom and mom and he was insisting that it was not a dream, like that he that they were there. So, for the two weeks leading up to 9/11 after that night, he was just going on and on and on about, like, I feel like I'm going to die young, like, I want to be cremated when I die, like all these crazy things. And the weekend before, he said to my mom, like, I'm going to quit. Like, I'm not happy. He was having some issues at work. Wait, he worked at Canter. He worked at Canter. What did he do? He was the managing director of interest rate options. He worked on a hundred fifth floor. Oh, at age 38, age 38. Oh, he was very successful. He worked very, very hard. Yeah. And he was like, I'm going to quit. I'm not happy. So, that morning, 849, three minutes after the plane hit, he called her from a cell phone. And that was what was kind of rare is that what people don't always really know is it was really hard to actually get cell phone service in those offices, even though there was the antenna. So, he got through and all the stories of the people getting through on their cell phones because the office signs were all dead is miraculous. It's so, that's a strange phrase that gets ignored, gets ignored. Yeah. So, even today, you have problems in those buildings getting service. Yeah. So, he gets through to her, picks up the phone. My mom picks up the phone. She's like, what's going on? He's like, hey, she thought seeing his cell phone pop up on the house phone caller ID that he walked out, because he never would call her during the day. So, did she already know the tower was no idea? No idea. Because he could only call her three minutes after. No idea. Yeah. So, he liked to pull pranks and jokes. So, my mom answers and she's like, he's like Michelle, do you have a TV on me? I think of a small plane hit. I'm gathering my stuff, beginning to evacuate. And my mom was like, this John, this better not be some sort of sick joke. And when she said those words, the line cutoff, he had actually said to her to, do you have a TV on? So, line cuts off, she turns a TV on, and they just now are covering it, right? It's three minutes later. And all these, like, we don't know what hit, like, all the reports of, we think a small plane hit. Yeah. They didn't know at that time. They were saying, like, the says no or something. Yeah, exactly. So, she sees the smoke billowing out of the building. And back and forth, they were calling each other and she would answer, and just hear static. And when she kept calling his cell phone, because the office time was dead, he'd answer, and there was static. And finally, he got through to her one last time. And basically, he just told her that he loved her and goodbye. What time was that? Probably, I don't know. I asked her if she ever pulled the logs from, like, Verizon. She never did, but she wrote a letter to him when we buried him. 849 was the number she wrote for the first call. She didn't say the second call. It had to have been right before 9 o'clock. Because my dad's brother, my uncle, was the last one to get through to him right at 9 o'clock in the morning. And no one spoke to him again after that. Whoa. What floor was he on? 105. 105. Yeah. So, it hit at 846. Yeah. And it's, unfortunately, a very famous story that canter, in particularly, where both of your fathers worked. They lost, like, everybody. They were all above the hit zone. 101 to 105. Yeah. So, the smoke and the temperatures, as far as I've been told, like, in the first 10 minutes, just got to insane levels. Like, almost unsurvivable levels right there, even before the second plane hit the other tower. And that kind of lines up with, like, the last time your dad talked to your uncle was 9 o'clock. That's not that long after. Well, what's interesting is I've done a lot of extensive research over the years. That was where my first obsession regarding addiction that I dealt with was 9/11. And it stems from when I came home from school later that day, and I saw the footage. And then, when the footage was being played on that TV, there was a family friend sitting on the couch. a channel when the buildings come down on this TV replay and she will went over to a Spanish new station, and the first thing I saw was someone jumping. Oh, that fucked me up and changed me. I was nine years old. That is what affected me tremendously. So that led me down this road of research, and then these documentaries started coming out, and these families from Canter were being interviewed. And they were like, oh, I was, you know, looking at these photos of all the people in the windows, and I was zooming in, and it was enhancing them, enlarging them, and they would say how they'd contact the photographers. So I started emailing the photographers. But when I went to high school, I took the train to school. Same train I was going to New York City. So I emailed these guys, and I was like, hey, can I come to your galleries and see these photos? None of them responded to me. But none of them responded to me. I think they just were like, we, you know, this is some grieving kid. Like, what do you say? Like, how do you do this? Right? I would think that if you wanted to come see the pictures that they took, though, if they saw the emails, I kind of assumed someone dead, that you would respond to that, though. That's a little strange. Yeah, it was a response, right? Yeah, nothing. Yeah. So it's kind of weird to hear. It's kind of weird not to get a little response. Nothing, yeah. The photographer, one that I reached out to in particular, was known to be sort of a, like obviously he's an artist, if you will. So he viewed it as like, I think he only was selected with the families that he met with in the beginning. I want to say he only did that in the early years. I reached out to him probably five years later. So like, I think a lot of them are like, out of sight, out of mind type of thing. Yeah, I feel like this kind of transcends art, though. I agree with you. Listen, I agree with you. I look back. I look back like years later and I was like, did you ever respond? You never did. Summers officially over, which means back to reality for most of us. And there's a real window right now. For your fully in winter mode, to fix your sleep instead of just pushing through another season on a bad mattress. That's where my friends at Ghost Bed come in. They have more than 20 years of manufacturing experience. 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At Ghost Bed prices are already up to 50% lower than comparable brands. So this is the perfect time to make the upgrade. Head on over to gosped.com/jolien, link in my description below and use promo code Julien for an extra 10% off your order site wide. - So there was another one that I got in contact with years later, his son actually. And his son described how his father was very traumatized obviously by what he saw and what he photographed. And he said he would look into some stuff for me. And it just has been hard for him to get his dad to agree to look at certain things. And I described what my dad was wearing. And asked him if he could look through it and he said that he would and he at least got back. And this was honestly, this was recent. This was over the last few years that I contacted him. I saw him post something on this Reddit page and I personally reached out to him. - There are a lot of people I talk to who were there that day whether they worked in the buildings who were more likely were right by there and were looking up when this was happening and were escaping the dust cloud when everything fell who will not talk about it. And I fully understand that because it was just every single beat of that day from the things they had to immediately accept were happening, which is like watching people make the decision of do I wait here and die or do I jump to my death. All the way to like thinking the world's ending when it comes down, it's just the post-traumatic stress that I had is so insane that like I totally get it. - Well, what I was gonna say before is that there were reports that the 100th floor in the 101st floor where how the smoke went, hit those floors harder at first. - Why did they say that? - I don't know exactly. There are pockets of floors, pockets of the counter offices that were actually immune to the smoke and the fire, mostly the smoke hitting them until later. That's why as you like look at some of the photos right as the building's coming down, the smoke is dark and arid but you could see people in the windows still. There were still hundreds of people standing in the windows. People don't realize that and now it makes you wonder how many people are behind them, right? That's what's hard to think about. But and then another thing too is the windows in the world restaurant, which was above the counter floors, also for whatever reason got hit harder by the smoke sooner than some of the pockets of the offices. - And it wasn't, it's been a while but people, they couldn't access the roof. - Either. - It was locked. There was a kid that worked in my daddy was 23 years old and my dad was his boss and he made a call to his parents and the rumor was that he said we're gonna try to get to the roof. So I believe that my dad, they tried to go up. Now what, I don't know, like did they get up there and it was locked, like in my that point, like there was no. - And they couldn't, that was the other thing, the helicopter pilots there, like some of the guys who were flying around, there were news pilots, I think there were other types of pilots as well. They were making attempts to get even anywhere near the roof and scientifically it was not. - There was one pocket on like the northwest corner, I think it was, it's in the nachio documentary, where they can literally, you see how close they get and you could see the people in the windows, like waving at them, standing in the windows waving at them and the pilot said, you know, we tried to get there but there was no one there. There was no one on the roof. - Like, you know, you're in school though. - Nine o'clock, you remember seeing your seven-year-old brother put it out in a class and you're seeing a bunch of moms and dads come and pick up their kids, but your moms, not there. So did the teachers just like take the principal's office, what happened? - They sat in that computer room for the rest of the day basically and then went back to class and then got on the bus and went home. - And when I got home. - You went back to class, like for like maybe a little bit and then we were like, it was a very, no one knew what to do. - Right. - No one knew what to do. - You know, I think most of the afternoon was in that computer room, you know. We might have been in the principal's office for a little bit too. - Did you have any concept at that point that your dad might not be getting out of those buildings? - No, I had no idea. - No clue. - No idea. - The teachers didn't even know about the phone calls. So I think that no one, I don't think people realized the severity. I think people thought that those people were gonna be able to get out, you know. Now who, you took the bus home from school. So when you got home was your mom there? - Oh yeah, there was probably, there was like 30 or 40 cars parked in the driveway. I really, I kind of struggled for a long time with why my mom kept me in school and then I understood when I got home why she decided to do it and I can understand it. And I've done a lot of interviews and things over the years where people, I've seen people like say, like how could she do that and all that stuff? But it's like, for us to go home and then see the TV footage and then then try to pretend like things are normal. Like she was trying to preserve our last chance of normalcy. - Right. - 'Cause it was fucked from there on out. I mean, we didn't go back to school for three weeks. It's like, how do you describe the commotion? People running to the house in the days after and I'm sure you remember this too. Like bringing food, like trays of food and there's nowhere else to put the food. Like you can't even fit it in the fridge anymore. Like no one knew what to do. And, you know, again, she was a three-month-old at the house too. - Oh shit, my youngest was three months old. - My youngest brother. My other brother Michael was three years old. So she got a seven, a three, and an infant, and an infant. So it's, you know, they just didn't know. - I take issue with people who play the Hindsight 2020 game on something like that. You're reacting moment by moment. - Right. - Like, we know all about this now. But I remember that day. I was seven, eight years old. And it's one of the first things I can viscerally remember every single part of the day in my life. Like there's things I can remember from before I was eight, but not like every single piece that day. I know every minute of it. And it was so chaotic. And I was in South Jersey. So there's fewer people who have exposure to people in the towers. There were some, but, you know, for people to like, try to determine how you're gonna respond at the instant to that. When you're also watching on TV, just like everyone else wondering if your loved one is going down with those buildings. Like, come on. That's crazy. - Also too, I think people don't understand how different the world was back then. - Oh, yeah. - You know, like, you would, I don't know if you could still smoke on planes at the time. Maybe. - God, it was a better time for that. - Yeah. Still smoke on planes, maybe. But like, the security, there was no security. - Amanda, were you alive? - No. - You weren't alive. - No, you're post 9/11? - Wow. - That's why. - Yeah. - There you go. - It's just different. - It's different. Same thing with like how the hijackers got their stuff the plane. Yeah, it just it was just different. Yeah, you book a flight. Now you, and you look down the receipt of all the taxes in the September 11 tax, like people don't look at that probably and then know what that is, right? But it's there. We can talk about that today too. Obviously there's a lot. They're still ongoing lawsuit. Yes. And everything's kind of wild. So we're going to get to a lot today, people, but I want to make sure we get through the starts of some of those stories here. So when, when was, when you got home and saw the 30 to 40 cars in the driveway and you went inside, did your mom at that point, like, you know, because you're old enough, you're not like three. Did she pull you aside and say like, Hey, we haven't been able to reach your father or did that come later? Not came later. I walked through the, through the hallway, through the kitchen. And as I kind of entered the kitchen area, there was like family members. Cell phones weren't as much of a common thing back then, right? So, but you saw people on cell phones. And there was these newly established hotlines in hospitals, obviously, but there was hotlines for the hospitals as well. People were calling in to see if you'd heard anything or person was there. If I kept walking. And there were so many people crying. And then, as I turned the corner, that's when I saw the footage. And then when I saw the other piece that I talked about before, I, that's, I physically reacted to that, you know, that's when I started, I was like, I was extremely upset. My grandmother saw that and grabbed me and kind of brought me outside and said, go, you know, to go play on my friend who was my neighbor. Was that your father's mom? That was my mom's mom's mom. And, you know, at that point, it was, you know, it was too late. And then I just remember how people were coming in and out of the house all day long. Over the next two days that we had like a memorial at our house, I go, no, no, I'm a memorial, but like a prayer service. And then a week later, they came to the house to tell us that they found them. Oh, they found them. They found them. So it's crazy because David and I started talking about this. So all these years, I thought that they found my father three days later. That was the, for whatever reason, that was the day that I thought he was found. He was found basically two days later. And he was identified by his wallet that was in his pocket. So I went to the memorial and I met with a chief medical examiner, the doctor over there. And I looked at his file and his report and everything like that. And so basically, he was mostly found two days later. He wasn't identified fully. I should say he was identified by the wallet. And then the rest of the remains weren't confirmed until different points, right? So they came to the house to tell us that they found them due to the wallet. And then as time went by, we, you know, we buried them. We buried him 10 days later, but we continued to get remains that were cremated for his wishes. Yeah, that's pretty what that combination to is pretty insane. Yeah, it's great. That's the kind of shit that makes me just be like, what type of dimension are we tapped into? You want to hear a crazier dimension? Sure. My dad's father was 16 years old. Ish, maybe a little bit older. I always mess this up. He was taken, him and his father were taken during World War II after the Germans and the Italians broke off the axis. Okay, so now the Nazis invaded various parts of Italy. They also, we were not Jewish, but they captured non-Jewish people Italians and made them essentially their prisoners of war, right? And they were brought to forced labor camps. They were not killed by gas and all the other things that the Jews back then, the Italian Jews were killed by in the concentration camps, but they were basically worked to death. My grandfather's POW number was 9/11. I'll pull the photo. We'll get the photo of that. That's when I say, like, dimensional, crazy fucking weird shit. Like, you're standing at 80 years to prevent 9/11. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's like, you got that whole dark comedy thing. I love it though. Yeah. I love it. I mean, he does it for a living. I hope he's got it. But he's got a good, he's any deliverance. Crazy. That crazy though. That's crazy. Wow. So I don't know, man, it's some weird stuff. That is some weird stuff. Really. All right, so we'll come back on the timeline, but let's come over to you David for people that didn't hear our episode last year. It's pretend no one's heard that obviously because you know, we do a lot of episodes here and that one also, I think, is one of the more underrated podcasts we've done. That was one of my favorite podcasts last year. But you obviously have your own show where you go through all this stuff with all different types of people from all different backgrounds who lose loved ones in different ways and kind of how they deal with their grief, how they deal with death and the concept of it. And we'll link that down below. Obviously, everyone should go check that out. But you lost your father on 9/11. Where were you when you found out the towers were hit? Honestly, very similar experience that we found, which is why I'm kind of sitting here locked in. I got super I'm sorry to I'll get to it in a second, but I got like super emotional as soon as you said your dad's age because my dad was 46. And also, it seemed to be applying. You might have been more successful at 38 than my father, but besides that, I'm 37. Yeah. And so I'm not quite at the age of my father, which is the thing. You know, my sisters are getting closer to 46. And this is a weird, trippy idea. And I'm already going to be your dad's age and to think how young that is. Obviously, we're younger people. I mean, I know that, but to like hear it sit next to me just like it just hits differently. And plus we're both baby boys at the time. Yeah. Yeah. Hit me different. But similar to Matt's story, I was left in school. And I had a similar a similar thought process, but I did always sit with the idea. It was a better to pull us into the chaos. Like she didn't know. And I watched it a lot. If I snuck to the TV, watched it live, see my mom freak out. I think that would have been a worse decision. So I backed that decision. I think our mom's made. But my, I think you even have a better memory at nine or nine, right? Yeah. Because I mean, that day was like split in two for me. Where I remember our first period came. I'm buddy Jeff, who was late. So he apparently caught the 846 first impact. It comes up to me. No, my dad works in the trade center. And he said, Yo, Dave, doesn't your dad work in the world trade center? I go, yep. And he says a plane flew into the building. And that was just difficult to understand. I know what it meant. Nor did I think it was as serious as, I don't think anyone thought it was as serious when they first heard it or saw it perhaps. And I didn't know what that meant. So I tried going to the main office. They didn't let me make a phone call. And similar to my, your place, a lot of people was a commuter town. I believe Middletown, my town lost the most people outside of the New York jurisdiction, like 30 some odd people. So a lot of students had families and whatnot that work there. So they're probably trying to keep it under control. Like, you alluded to no one knew what to do. Didn't allow me to make a phone call. My mom left me in school for similar reasons. I was safe. I was right down the street. Perhaps it's giving me the rest of that day. Even though I was still paranoid. I didn't know what was going on. It was as normal as it could have been as opposed to going home. And the bell rang. And that was the time to go back. And one thing I get tripped up on is while my imagination is running the entire day wondering what was going on, knowing something took place, it was actually happening. So as my imagination versus this reality that was actually occurring. And while I was unsure of what my father did and happened to him and what was going on, it was happening. You know what I mean? While that wondering was happening, that's just something that is kind of going in retrospect. But by the time it came to walk home, there were 233 o'clock. So it was all done. I'm walking with my best friend James. And it was quiet from what I remember and what he expressed to me. And I remember getting around the bend similar to yours again. I saw cars outside. And that was the moment when I knew shit went down. I was like, why are the cars outside? Am I called the sack? Tuesday at 3 o'clock. And I was like, okay, even at 12. I knew something went down. And I was always interested in the nine and 12. It's a small gap now, but it's a big gap then. The level of understanding for better or for worse, there is a big developmental aspect there. So I just wonder what those feelings were between us as you explain. Get to the house. Me and James get separated. I don't know who separated us. I remember someone trying to keep me away from the TV. And I start walking to the living room. What I wanted to see what was going on. And I remember seeing my cousin's face. And I see Joey's eyes right now. And as he's looking at me, it was obviously fearful. But now looking back again, the whole timeline jumping. So he just knew my life was about to get flipped upside down in about seven paces. Looked at the TV for the first time. That's when I saw the footage. And I remember everything just came out of me. It just broke down crying. But the difference between my experience for some, for lack of better words, slightly jealous of is everything blacked out. Yeah, I don't remember anything after that. Obviously, that day and I remember everything else was scattered beyond that. But I don't remember anything after three o'clock when I first saw the footage. You don't remember like a couple days after. Yeah, I don't remember anything. I'm going to say anything. I'm jumping around. But I don't really remember that next day or the day after. I remember things happening. I just can't see the patchwork of when that was. Right. I know things I was doing. I remember the memorial service, which I don't know if it was a couple of weeks later. We didn't we didn't find anything. My dad got identified I think a while after and I went to the 9/11 where I look at his file. I just don't recall the date when they first they first found one piece of them. They found one thing one part of them. That's it. It's they identified them by the one piece that they found. But that was a while after. And so we didn't get any confirmation. I was just are knowing. And I remember asking my mom on my podcast, the video, remember. knowing he wasn't coming back. And my mom said that next morning. And of course, she wanted to hold hope for her children, but she was just trying to put the logistical pieces together. The smoke and he was so high up. There was no, there was almost no shot as much as you wanted to hold on to her waking up. She just knew that he wasn't coming back. And I don't recall having to sit down about this is what happening. It was just like we knew, just as much as I saw the footage for the first time. Besides it being violent, I just knew like, oh, no, he's even at 12. Like this is he's not coming home. Yeah, you see, I would imagine to like trying to put myself back on that day, but like, especially the adults that day who have a better concept of life than an eight-year-old would have, when you see that come down like that, you got to be thinking that's an unsurvivable event. It's a hundred, what is it? A hundred or ten stories. You know, coming on itself and it wasn't long either. Yeah, the first one fall, the last one fell at 10.08, right? So I'm like that. 10.29. 10.29. It was 102 minutes. And so the South Tower was hit 16, 17 minutes after the North Tower, but fell first. Yeah. Right. Yep. One did that fall. Do we have the time on that? 59 I think. 959. I think so. That's damn it. South Tower. That was that quick. That was that quick. Yeah. Well, it's funny. You mentioned about like the was it right? 99. So the blackout stuff because I, after that piece of the footage that I saw on my grandma telling me to leave, the rest of the things that I remember are scattered too. And like even, I had to like fact check so many people in my family when I was writing my book because I was like, did I dream this or did this happen? I had to ask questions. I was like interviewing everyone. I said, man. Yeah. My mom, like, my mom wouldn't even remember certain things. So I had also realized like, okay, like she was going through her own grief and trauma. Interesting though. Like your mom sent you the next day for us. It was two days later, the 13th, which is eerie to me because that's when he was found. That's when we had that prayer service. And there's like people sitting in our lawn with candles. And then there was like this massive gust of wind apparently, which I remember it, but legally, and my mom turned to my grandfather, her dad and said, he's not coming home. She's still held on to belief in hope that he might, but we had family who worked in the downtown. I had an uncle worked in the trade center too. And one of my uncles, my mom's cousin, came home. He took him hours to get back to New Jersey. Did he like do the whole walk? He did a walk and then like I like took like a small boat with someone or something like that. It might have taken one of the fairies over. It was something like that. And the car like hits the rise somehow. It was some crazy story. He told me before, but I forget right now. When he got to my mom, he got to our house that night. He said to my mom, I hope we find them. That's what he said to my mom. Like he knew there was no fucking chance. He said, I hope we find them. And so like I hear these stories and I've been told these stories as the years have gone by. And like I always will break down when I hear it, but it's I think people don't understand if they weren't in New York City. And like so for me, where my fucked up brain goes is what I'm there downtown. And you see how big those pools are. And you have to realize like those were buildings. And I don't think people understand how catastrophic it really was. That's where I kind of wrestle with this thought. Like they don't, people don't realize like this was like a war zone on a beautiful sunny September day. Downtown Manhattan turned into like a war zone. Like they don't get that. Especially after 25 years, you see it so much. It's so much it's so much in your face that it's not that it gets numb, but I mean, like a post day or day just talking whatever comes out. I don't know what I say sometimes, but I was like, yeah, we can just watch our dad die. And obviously other people are too, but sometimes we're looking at like this is obviously catastrophic violent event. Everyone knows that we're watching it, but it's almost oddly pushed to the side and maybe I'm wrong that is that we're watching this event, but we're forgetting that we're watching thousands of people die on video one by one. I said that this morning. I said, anyone can access my dad's final moments on YouTube. Like that's where I will never compare my loss, our loss with someone else who lost a parent in any way. And it's it's always traumatic. No matter what. But I think that where it goes over a lot of people's heads is they had maybe they had a goodbye. It was private. They were able to grieve in private. We will never have private grieving. Never. And then you and like I said to my mom the other day, from the 20th anniversary to the 25th now, like this all feels like one blur to me of like things I've done throughout the years, whether it's media, things like that. And all the calls are coming in on the monumental years, but the years in between the days in between are the days that like I get tangled up in it. You know, I'll be honest, like when I went to the memorial to me with that medical examiner back in June, I've been in a really good spot with my descent into looking at the footage and I struggle with that because that's where I wanted to. I feel like I looked at that footage so obsessively to connect in a weird way with my dad. Anyway, I've been at a really good place with that. And when I went to the memorial and met with that woman, she's really sweet and really nice, knowledgeable. It sent me down a little bit of a spiral like in the weeks after. Like I was definitely, I was affected by it. I'll be honest, like I was affected by it. And we had spoken. And when we got off, when I got off the phone call with you, I called her and set up the appointment. And I was like, I just got to do this. And I knew it would be difficult to do, but I was like, I have to do it. You know, I've been saying I'm going to do it for two years. I just have to go me with her and see what this is all about. But I see your point completely that like you getting to have your private moment to go do that. You're still examining something that's an extremely public event that the entire world gets to examine as well. It's a strange dynamic. You get to the memorial and you have, and there's also the World Cup. So there's a lot of tourists that were in the city. Well, I always wrestle with this because when I go to the memorial and you see people standing there at the pools, and you see, look, it's hot. It's the summer, right? You see kids sitting on the pools, on the names. You see people taking selfies. And then it's just to me, I don't know, I try not to get emotionally attached to it. And I have to understand that people don't have the same connection. But it's still difficult. How many times have you been to the pools? Would you say over the years? Probably maybe less than 10 times. Less than 10. Okay. So, you know, as someone who didn't lose family in the event, even me, every time I go by those things, when I have to be in that part of Manhattan, you cannot not stop. You can't not stop and like stand there. And it's never for like 30 seconds. You know, you're there for a couple minutes because I really, the way you described it a few minutes ago about how it was a war zone and you realized a scope of the fact that there were two buildings standing right there. It really hits you. But as you were pointing out for people who haven't been there before, they have all the names pretty beautifully carved in along the edge of every single person that perished in the towers and on 9/11. And you know, it's a really solemn thing. And maybe I'll say this, probably the World Cup wasn't the best time to be gone in there because you're going to see more of that stuff. You don't like it. But I will say, most of the times I go there, you know, I think a lot of people, there's something about it when they're there that the majority of people, they get it. And they're like, woo, you know, and I think I hope people listening to this who maybe have just walked by that before or not really thought much of it or, you know, wouldn't think of memorials like this, understand the gravity of that and how it affects, you know, living victims of that event because it's a serious thing. It doesn't matter how many years will pass, that's, that's, you know, your guys' lives were completely upended in one day. Yeah. How well do you remember your dad? I remember him pretty well. I mean, things have sadly faded as time has gone by. You know, I have, I have his voicemail recording, like, you know, when you'd call a cell phone, I have that saved, I have like home videos, like, I did lose remembering what his voice sounded like for a long time. And I have to kind of play that back to remember it. Do you remember when you started to forget that? Like how old you were? I mean, probably early teenage years, I would say. It's hard to hold on to it. Like, you don't, yeah, you lose it, you know, you lose it. But I do remember him pretty well. And it's interesting because I don't have many memories pre-9/11 anymore. Like I can't think back kids say like, oh, people say like, oh, I remember what it was like when I was in kindergarten. Like I don't remember anything like that. I have like the summer before my dad died. The last thing I really remember is when I was eight, go into the World Trade Center for the Christmas Party. And from like then to 9/11 is like a blur. And then 9/11 it happens. And then the days after Erbler, the weeks after Erbler. And it's like, I can't remember what Christmas or like I don't know. So then things fade. It's just the reality. Do you remember what he was like though? Oh yeah, remember his personal. Yeah. Very charismatic person, very happy. Love to joke around. He just loved life. I mean, that's like the crazy thing is I hear all the people who died 9/11. It's like they were all described very similarly to me. They loved life. They appreciated life. They were just a joy to be around. And I'm never taking And so soon, which is kind of weird. So yeah, he just had this, this, this knack about him. I don't know. He was very approachable and like most people loved him. And if you didn't love him, he said, okay, I don't care. You know, that was his personal. - Very, very North Jersey town. - Yeah, exactly. - A spot on. - Yeah, I feel like I know. - He flipped you the bird, so that was it. At least we do that here in New Jersey. As opposed to out in LA, they smile at you. You walk by and then they say, go fuck yourself. - Yeah, they tweet about it. - I actually not X anymore, not X, not California here. - Right, that's, I've heard a lot of people talk about that though in different contexts at all ages. When they lose people and then five, six years later, you start to, you're like, wait, was a voice like this? Or was it like that? So really it's, that's a really odd thing to deal with. And it's hard also when you're in the middle of growing up as well. So then all the experiences that, you know, you have that you're supposed to have like your dad there to help you with that you did until you were nine and suddenly you don't have it. But what about your brothers because they were younger? You know, you're seven year old brother. I imagine he remembers your dad a little bit, a little bit. We, you know, it's interesting because my brother Nick and I approached 9/11 differently for a long time, he would feed into a lot of the conspiracy stuff and all the background stuff, which opened my eyes to a lot of things too. He's very research oriented and he's smart. He's very smart and so, he opened my eyes to a lot of things that I was not aware of. I had a different approach to it and I think that I don't know. I don't talk to him about what he remembers. I probably should. To this day, you don't really talk to him. No, I talk to my brother a lot. Yeah, but I'm saying you don't really talk to him about what he remembers. No. It's hard. I don't know. Guys can be different. I don't have sisters, right? It's like my two youngest brothers don't remember anything. They will sometimes ask questions, but it's hard. I think that's hard for them too because they don't have a memory. They don't remember it. So the three months obviously doesn't at all, but the three year old doesn't remember your dad at all. Maybe a little bit. Maybe small things. They share a very similar path. I mean, we all share the same passions my dad had, but like my brother Michael really, my dad was obsessed with cars. And Michael's like that too. And like, no, it has very knowledgeable facts about them and all that stuff. Can spot what that is when he sees it dry by, whatever. But no, he doesn't. It's just hard. I don't know. My story became very public and I think that was kind of hard for them. I'll speak. I won't speak for them, but I'll assess that. I think it was hard for them. Harder than maybe they let on to believe. That year's story became important. My story, our family story became public. Okay. You know, I don't think, to my knowledge, any of them have finished my book. I think it's very challenging for them to read, truthfully. My mom read it, my step-dad read it, but I don't think any of my brothers have finished it. Wait, so did your story really go public like through this book? Yeah. You're saying? Okay. And you wrote that in 2020. No, I actually finished it in 2017. Didn't get published until 2020. The long journey. What made you want to do that? I guess like right now, sub 15 years later. Well, so I journaled since I was 10 years old. My mom's brother, who I'm very close with, my uncle, is my godfather. He gave me a journal for Christmas, the year after 9/11. And he described, so he wrote this whole note and said, I have stacks of these journals throughout the years. Try to write it in and every night. And actually, I take that back. It was the first Christmas after 9/11. And he just basically encouraged me to write. So I did. And I would write every night in that journal. And then there was a period of my life where I stopped. And then I continued and would stop and continue. So I dealt with drug addiction. We'll get probably into all that. But I started speaking at schools and I was about 9 months over. And I'd go into schools and I would never really go fully into my deep wounds of my story. Kind of service level described what happened to my dad, what happened to me getting sober, et cetera. And one day I went into a school and I got fully honest and I basically shared everything. I didn't plan what I wanted to say. I just let it all out. And the senior, I'll never forget, came up to me after and he said, I want you to know I went through something very similar. And you inspired me and you should consider writing a book. That's something I started writing the book. That's cool. And the book changed. I mean, believe me, it was a lot-- we got it right here sway. We'll have that right down below for people to check it out. It changed a lot. I caught a lot of stuff. I rewrote a lot of stuff. My first editor was like, you're not getting deep. You're kind of just like reflecting too much. You need to like really tap back into that nine-year-old. And you could say you didn't have it all figured out because you didn't write in 14-year-old voice and all that stuff. And so it was challenging for me. And it opened up a lot of things inside of me that I had suppressed for a long time. So my brother is basically-- there's a lot of stuff about my dad in there that now people who never really knew, now they know. And that was part-- What are some of those things? Yeah, just like, for an example, when they found my dad, like they found, I guess it just might as well just say, like they found his lower half first. That's how he was identified. Like I said, his wallet, his keys were in his pocket, his phone. And his wallet was not burnt or anything like that. It was kind of charred, but it was very waterlogged. And there was photos of me and my brothers in the wallet, which are stained. Watermarks, they have water stains. There was money in there. Do you guys have that stuff? We have it all. Yeah, we have it all. His business card, his credit card, all of the stuff is in there. And so that type of stuff, I think, was hard. Especially my younger brothers who didn't maybe know. My mom sat me and my brother Nick down and my dad's office, we called it is a little home office and told us that he wasn't coming home. Like that's, she delivered that news when they found them. But they didn't tell her until a week later, right? No, it's not saying a week later is when she sat us down and said, like, he's not coming home. And you remember that very well. That is like the last piece around that. And I have like, like bits of his funeral. And that's it. How'd you react like once she finally? I broke down immediately crying. So you give you an example, right? Nick, me and Nick were different as kids. And he said, my dad's dead. OK. And he got above the chair and he walked out of the room. Me, I started historically crying. And I think Nick has worked through his grief with the two. It took us years for us to connect and share tears together over it. Years. Yeah, I would say. I mean, it was just traumatic events that affect people differently for sure. And I have like friends who, like, I have one of my best friends at this day. His dad died at Cannes as well. And I told them that I went to the memorial. And I met with that medical examiner, Lady. And he asked me, he's like, I'm just curious. Like, why? He's like, why? He's like, I don't really-- I don't care to know. Like, I've dealt with my own way of ways around it. And what I think may have happened-- he didn't tell me what he thinks happened to his dad. But he's like, I just-- I don't know. Like, what do you gain from it? And I'm like, I don't know. But I wanted to do it. Did you find friction with that between the two of you? And noticing how differently you grieved? Or is that the friction? Yeah, probably. And I think that's what he struggled with was that I was so open about it. I don't know if you have any similar experiences to yourself. But like, it just-- people react to it differently. I mean, especially in general, that's probably one of the hardest dynamics I think, in my opinion, just from the familial aspect of it. Yeah. But just relationships in general have different everyone handles everything. And that could be rub people the wrong way for me or the other person. Sure. Based on how you're handling it. Now, we aren't talking different age ranges here with your family, respectively. But if I remember correctly, David, you were the youngest, right? Yeah, two older sisters are 70 years older than me if I have an Earth. OK, so two older sisters. And you were the oldest. And you were about 13, 12, 12, and you were 9. So again, it's a different spectrum completely. But it's interesting, as you grow up, you were the young one at that point. And your sisters are navigating through this. But as you're growing up, you're the oldest one. And you have two siblings who really can't remember. Shit. Yeah. They were way too young. That's like a-- these are two very different experiences of how to later deal with it. So like, David, would you say that as once you got past the period where it was just kind of blacked out to you, like your sisters were there to really talk with you over the years? Or was that also a slow process of actually having communication there? I think it was a slow process. Again, a lot of the pieces I had to put together, kind of what you said in regards to asking people questions. Like I asked my mom, my sister's questions. And one thing my sister said in our family episode was like, yeah, I don't really remember us talking about it for the first few weeks. But then there was a point where my mom reminded me that she would give us the opportunity to speak. When we were eating dinner, I would just sit there, not say anything and observe. And that was somehow-- I took it for a long time, which is why I kind of do what I do now, because I felt the guilt of not even a guilt. I didn't express much. I didn't-- get it out. But I was raised by three women, which I think is a big difference just being raised having men around me or boys around me. Because obviously we deal with it differently, but women are a little bit more expressive for the most part, more gentle around these things, not to generalize any of it, but having the women's perspective was a big deal for me. But a lot of my journey, again, was forgetting, remembering, asking questions, and as it became a man, things started opening up and understanding it. And for one of the things I did, which I think you were doing, was I was watching the footage over and over again in the early teens, looking for every angle. And I wonder if it's partially because we hadn't, we didn't have so many, we had no answers, even 25 fucking years later, we still haven't answers. But besides that, we just, I didn't, I wanted to know what he experienced. What did he suffer? It was her pain, was he a hero? Was he scared? And I'm anxious, I'm never going to get. So I just wonder if I wanted to see it to have some control over finding out what was going on, getting information. Everything was already public. I wanted to be there. So a lot of my process was diving into my own. But I had, I did have a support system. It was just different for each of us. Did you, this is like kind of a strange question. But when you were going to try to figure that out to see if you could find something that like puts you there and figures out what he was feeling, what he was thinking, if you could even get an answer to that. Did you feel like going into that, that that would change things for you? Or it was strictly just because you wanted to know? Honestly, I did it because I wanted to make myself cry. I think that was the initial thing. I knew I wanted to get some shit out of me and I knew that would make me cry if it didn't. That's a whole other problem. But I just wanted to get it out and I wanted to sit in it. And then I feel like I defined it later in life as kind of an exposure therapy that I didn't realize I was doing. But I kind of did by putting myself there by forcing myself to watch it by letting it come out and not running from it or looking away from the screen and jumping to my mom to hug her. It was just sitting in it, letting the cry out, being scared, trying to put myself there because I wanted to be there oddly. And by doing this, I just forced myself to feel it and let see what came out. And then afterwards I kind of just take a breath. And then I realized I'm still here. As corny as I sounds, I was kind of what it was. That's why I wanted to cry. And I wanted to put myself through it. And even 25 years later, I don't seek the footage as much. But when it pops up, which is very often, it's just like I watch it. And then I get that feeling back a little bit. But at the same time, I kind of want that feeling. You know, and I'll say this, just being someone from this part of the world, you know, where you did know people who were in the towers, at least, like there were a couple guys from my town, who died there and like New York's right here. And it's somewhere that, you know, I call home now and everything like we experience thinking about that day in a different way than I mean, you guys did in a way different way. But I mean, like people who didn't personally have family members in their experience thinking about that day in a way different way, no disrespect than someone who lives in Utah or something like that. And so that is the one thing, because I've had my own journey with going back to that day and trying to piece things together. And I still don't know what the fuck happened there. I think we would all like to know. But you know, I would find that when I would have the conversation over the years of people who were from this part of the world, there was, I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but there was a little bit more of a reverence for the day itself rather than when you're having those conversations about what really happened with someone who's not from this part of the world. I'm not blaming those people, but like they don't have that emotional attachment to it. And even I do, to say nothing of what you guys have to it as well. Like is that frustrating sometimes? You know, like how people will talk about it? Yeah, I mean, I live in South Florida. I don't even, I'm going to ask David too, like what people in L.A. think, but like, yes, two hour flights out. And I think the people down there, this is my first time being up north in four years, really, for the memorial, for like this time of year. Normally, yeah, I mean, yeah, the last time I was up here was, I think, 2020, like I'm here a lot, but for 9/11, it was 2022. So, which was actually probably good for me in a way, but people down there don't get it, you know, and also to like kids now, we're not even born. So they don't understand. So like, when I'm going to schools, I'm like, yeah, like her. And then when I'm going to schools and these kids are just, it's just so foreign to them. And they only know the here of things to like meme cultures. I've had people reach out to me about like loss footage and my knowledge of loss footage. And I'm like, yes, didn't exist. Wait, loss footage. There's a lot of like people who suspect there's like a lot of loss footage. Like a people who were videoing that day. Yeah, there's like people, there's these folklore videos that people think are real that occurred that didn't really occur. There's one that's very, it's all over these 9/11 Reddit pages. Haven't pulled it. Yeah. One of them is called, what was it called? It's not the guy who's watching. It's like I was supposed to be there. No, LOL Superman. They call it LSM. And it's supposedly a video of someone falling from the building and landing in the plaza. Never existed. But people have reached out to me because they heard my story about looking at the footage. And I'm like, I was pulling videos from Limewire before YouTube was like fully YouTube came up. Limewire. That's why I was pulling videos from Limewire. Yeah music. There's videos too. And YouTube was what 2006. Yeah, it just sounds. Yeah. So my freshman year of high school. And I remember pulling videos and like I never saw anything like that. So anyway, I've had people reach out to me about that type of stuff. And I'm like, if this is what they're pulling from what they're hearing on this podcast or that story or reading this article, whatever. I feel like they've lost the plot in many ways. But there's just a, I don't know, they're just not sensitive to what happened. Right. Right. It's history. I mean, it's history, but it's also, you know, you go to the memorial. It's people. It's obviously like, I don't mean to preach you guys, but like it's many people who in an instant were gone. And so there has to be a way to talk about both things. And if you got to put them even in separate lenses, fine. But like, that's just always, that's always been a tough line for me. Because like I said, like, I can't imagine it for you guys. But like, for me, it's like my life, I can like chart it back. Yeah. To that day. Well, it was interesting to about the pools that the people's names, I'm not sure if you know this, people's names are strategically placed around whether canner for Joe, people as an example are next to the people that they worked with that were friends with. And they pieced everyone together. And the same thing goes for the fire departments all of it. And they're pieced, they're placed on that portion of the pool by the people they were closest with. So not everyone knows that. But they did. There's so many. A lot of layers that people don't know. They did do. I'm not sure how you guys feel overall. It seems like you like it. But from my perspective, like as far as how they did the whole area right there, it's pretty amazing. Like it's beautiful. And then there's the family room, which I didn't know about until 2021. That's like private, right? Private family rooms can go in there. You can write a letter. You can leave a photo or whatever, which I've gone in there a few times. And then obviously the room where the it's behind the big blue wall, no day shall raise from the memory of time. That's where the the repository is. And so what I learned was when I went in the room and I looked at the file, there's two rows. One row is of remains that I've yet to be identified. And the other row is remains that have been identified, but the families don't want calls anymore. So the families don't do not want calls because there's more and more research and there's more and more ways that they've identified people. Like last, I think it was last year, there was like five new people that were identified. How did they do it? Just new DNA testing. So if I'm understanding from something almost microscopic in a way, or yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, they have the whole row, like you said, of unidentified remains of a district one by one, I guess putting it whenever they got. Can we Google that deep recent remains identified? It's like a year. I want to say it was a year ago from 9/11 and how they did it. And I think that that's wild. I don't know. I mean, I literally when I went to the same woman, I gave her my information. Yeah, ABC news 9/11 victim identified using first of its kind genetic genealogy technique. An adult female was formally identified using the technique. Let's go down. This was even more recent than I was. Yes, this is August 23rd, 2026. It's like two weeks ago. 25 years after the September 11, 2001 attacks New York City is still working to formally identify all of the nearly 3,000 people killed at the WTC. Now for the first time, the city's office of the chief medical examiner and the NYPD detective bureau have identified a 9/11 victim using genetic genealogy, which combines DNA testing with family tree research. The family of the newly identified victim who was an adult female declined to publicly come forward. She is the 1,654th to be formally identified, which means we have over 11. We have over like 1,300. Isn't it 2977? Yeah, yeah. So like 1,300 people still not identified. So let's go down. It's a breakthrough, Dr. Jason Graham, New York City's chief medical examiner told ABC News. I'm delighted to be able to say that we've now applied new methods to the WTC identification efforts. And we have a new identification for the first time in 25 years using new methods for nsic investigative genetic genealogy. Such a breakthrough. was unimaginable 25 years ago because the methodology did not exist. The technology really wasn't there. There's a lot of good future with genealogy. Forensic's investigative genetic genealogy has helped police solve the long-term unidentified co-ocases. More recently, the medical examiner's office and the police department have applied it to the World Trade Center victim ID. Dr. Jenodian is the woman that we met with. Oh, that's who you met with? Yeah. She's super super sweet. Yeah, super sweet. So she's she's with the she's a forensic anthropologist in New York medical examiner's office. So she does other things obviously with the city not just do you know she I don't know actually but she really literally is the one who's there. She is an office and she goes downtown to the memorial and she this is what she does. She's been interviewed several times over the years by ABC. She's a great. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode that link is in the description below or right here. And finally you can follow me on instagram and x by using the links in my description below.