The 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters

From New York Times, I'm Micah Bavaro, this is the Daily on Sunday. Over the past year, under a veil of secrecy, my colleagues at the New York Times magazine have been arguing over a list of the best living songwriters in America. Across all genres of music, famous lyricists, Sonic pioneers, hit machines, and beloved storytellers. Today, Times journalists explain how this list was made, and we hear from the artists themselves about how they created some of the greatest songs ever written – it's Sunday, May 3rd. Sasha Weiss. Michael Bavaro. You must be exhausted. We've had some late nights here, but fun ones, really fun. Just to explain, you are the deputy editor of the Times magazine, and you were deeply involved, along with a vast crew, in creating this list. And I wonder how do you even begin to create a list as ambitious as this? Well, we decided to draw on the wisdom of the crowd, and not just any crowd. We wanted to really canvas a lot of different music experts from all walks of life, so we sent ballots out, of course, to working musicians and songwriters, but also to producers, to label executives, to many generations of music critics, to top editors of music magazines, to scholars, to authors, to DJs, to music supervisor, so we really tried to go wide. And in the end, the list that was generated by that balloting process had over 700 individual names. Wow. What followed the balloting process was a second part of the process, which was inviting Times critics and sometimes affiliated critics to come to the Times for a long day of debate. And just kind of slug it out. Just slug it out. Were you in the room? Oh, yeah. What was it like? Passionate, contentious, sometimes heated. You know, I mean, there were some people who were obvious shuans. They balleted high above the rest. Stevie Wonder was one, Dolly Parton was another, Bob Dylan was another, Carol King. So hold your fire, those guys are in. Those guys are in, and that was part of our rules. And sort of the lower down we got in the balloting, the more they had to reach consensus. So there was a lot of debate. There was a lot of playing music in the room. But when they couldn't get agreement, sometimes they had to move on. Crushing. It was crushing. I mean, I think at various points, different people in the room felt crushed. You know, part of what we were trying to do here was to complicate the image of a kind of singer, songwriter, barred that a lot of us have in our heads and that, you know, some of the kind of usual suspects represent. It's one mode of songwriting, a very important one, but it's actually relatively new. You know, it was really in the 60s that Bob Dylan, among others, kind of inaugurated that kind of songwriting, you know, and we wanted to represent these other traditions. So how do we do that? So who do include from Nashville? That was a big question and how to arrange that, you know, how to explain that to readers. Well, let's talk about who ultimately got left off because so much of our conversations today is going to be about who makes it. And I'm going to go first here, okay, because I've had a chance to evaluate your list. And just off the top of my head, Billy Joel. Sure. You left off Billy Joel, the poet laureate of New York, the man who turned dinner at an Italian restaurant into an opera. You're not alone there, Michael. Many commenters on our project have been lamenting the absence of Billy Joel. Yeah. Well, Billy Joel, everybody in the room would agree, I think, at least most of them would agree. The Billy Joel belongs on a list of great songwriters. But when you're making a list of 30 and you're rooting it in a balloting process, you have to make hard choices. And there were people who were higher than he was. And, you know, there were also people representing the Piano Man Schmaltz tradition. They're Schmaltz? Sure. Schmaltz meant in the best sense, emotionalism, opera, you know, a kind of like bigness of storytelling, which is a venerable tradition in American song, you know, and represented on the list. But Billy Joel, some people argued in the room as a lyricist. If you're kind of putting him up against a Springsteen and a Dylan, people who he admires and I think pays homage to, some people argued he's not quite there. And there are others who are better. And we do have to represent the Piano Man. They're there, but the Piano Man himself ultimately is not. I wonder what you see and or hear when you look at the final list of 30. I think it's a list that reflects the world that we move through. I think it reflects the way that American music comes out of everything from like a speaker at a bar mitzvah, you know, a dance floor at a bar mitzvah, to what you see on TikTok. To like the thing that you'd sing at karaoke that everybody would know. We have people who are wearing in production and a kind of sound that threads its way through popular R&B and soul and hip hop. We have all your love. We have schmalz. And we have avant-garde indie, you know, weirdness. You know, we have all of it and we really wanted to show a range and to show that songwriting is not just one kind of songwriting. So the list tells several stories about that. And I'd argue best of all for our purposes is that because this list of 30 songwriters require them to be alive, we can actually hear from them. Yes. So that was sort of the third step in the process. Once we went through the very difficult work of winnowing this list and by the way, it wasn't just one session. It was many, many sessions over weeks to get to where we got. We wanted to go to these practitioners of song and say, how do you do what you do? And for the rest of this episode, we're actually going to hear from a couple of our colleagues who helped create this list and did these interviews with these living songwriters. And we're going to start with a colleague who spoke with arguably the biggest name in music today. And we're actually going to hear from her in the great tradition of schmalz. I'm going to use a pun here. We're going to hear from her quite swiftly. Excellent. We'll be right back. Joe Cascarelli. Hey. Welcome to the Sunday Daily. Thank you for having me. You cover pop music for The New York Times. You co-host a show, pop cast. You were one of the journalists who helped winnow this wisdom of the crowd that Sasha mentioned down to the 30 best living American songwriters. And most relevantly for our purposes, you interviewed The Queen. Not Beyonce. The Other Queen. Not Madonna. Taylor. Yes. Pretty big deal. Yeah, fun. A fun one. A good assignment. Tell me why Taylor Swift made the list. How could she not? That's my stance. I think there's a lot of himming and hawing over Taylor's omnipresence as a celebrity, as a cultural figure, her sort of imperial reign over pop music, especially in the last five years. The fame is one thing, but the music is at the core of the fame. And I think that ultimately is the reason for everything else. It's the songs. And that's what puts her on the list of best living songwriters. You're a student, maybe even dare I say, a scholar of Taylor Swift, and you've been studying her work for how long? I mean, I've been listening to Taylor Swift since I was a teenager, which is when she was a teenager. Yeah. We're about the same age. She's 1989. As we know. I'm 1988. Oh, we've grown up in parallel. She's always been there as a soundtrack to my own adolescence and young adulthood. And then I've been covering her as a journalist for 15 years now, 12 of which. which were here at the times. I interviewed her before for my songwriting series on YouTube called "Diary of a Song" in 2019. And then after that interview, she essentially goes dark from speaking with reporters about her work. - Until. - Until now. - All right, we're good. Ready to rock? - Oh, absolutely. - Thank you so much for doing this. What a treat. - Thank you for inviting me to talk about songwriting. - I have a million-- - Where do you start this conversation with her about her songwriting process. - You know, I actually started with the first line of the first song of her first album she ever released called "Taylor Swift" in 2006. That song is called "Tim McGraw." ♪ He said the way my blue eyes shine ♪ ♪ But those Georgia stars to shame that night ♪ ♪ I said that's a lie ♪ - We used that to get into all of these little songwriting tricks that she still does today that started with her initial schooling in what it means to make a record. - There was almost this tradition of sort of breaking the fourth wall, making the song then a part of the song or the writing of the song becomes a part of the song. - And one of the tricks I've always loved that "Taylor Swift" uses, which is a very country music thing to do, is this sort of plot twist, this perspective shift at the end of a song. - And I did that in a song called "Tim McGraw," where, you know, I'm singing about this kind of love lost. ♪ And there's a letter left on your doorstep ♪ ♪ And the first thing that you read ♪ - And then in the bridge it's revealed that I wrote this song and I hope he hears it. - This is something she was doing on that first album, on songs like "Tim McGraw" and "Our Song." - The song "Our Song," which I still love so much. It's all about this romance and this relationship. And then in the end it says, "I grabbed a pen in an old napkin and I wrote down our song." So I loved doing that. I still kind of loved doing that. It's kind of just like, and it was me. - And then she drew the thread all the way years and years later to a song on her album "Fokelor" called "The Last Great American Dynasty." ♪ Rebecca wrote up on the afternoon train ♪ ♪ It was sunny ♪ - It is just so much fun to like tell this story about this real woman who lived in history and she defied the social norms and she drove people crazy and she had a marvelous time ruining everything. And you talk about the house she lived in on the coast and basically then in the end you're like, you know, she moved away from holiday house. It sat quietly on that beach. ♪ We are not beach free of women with madness ♪ ♪ A minute that happens and then it was bought by me ♪ - And then it was bought by me. And you're like, every time I get to that part when I would sing it on tour, I'd just like, like I wanted my grin to go from here to here, but that looks crazy. So it's like I had to like taper down my own excitement that that hook happened. - As you two are discussing the early phases of her career, she mentions a musical influence that I had not quite expected. - Emo. ♪ Breathe in for luck ♪ ♪ Breathe in for luck ♪ - I was intensely impacted by Emo music, right? Dashboard, confessional, Chris Caraba, Fallout boy, Pete Wentz's lyrics. ♪ And I'm more than you boogie for yet ♪ - This was a real light bulb moment for me because Taylor and I are about the same age. We grew up on the same MySpace era music. And so when I asked her about this thing she's always loved to do, which is playing on idiom and even cliché, she drew it directly back to these sort of malign at the time youth culture bands who were known for putting a sort of clever twist on an expected phrase. ♪ And this is nothing you better ♪ ♪ But you're just a lady to song ♪ - They'd take a common phrase and then they'd just twist the knife of it, right? Like I'm just a notch in your bedpost, but you're just a line in a song. Drop a heart, break a name. I'd be reading those lyrics and I'd just finish reading a line and just go, "Oh my God!" - And Mac got her talking and thinking about all these little language tricks she likes to lean on. - I really gravitate towards juxtaposition and polarity in a line, right? So hey, what could you possibly get for the girl who has everything and nothing all at once? Our coming of age has come and gone. - She talks about these little rules she has for herself. Like she doesn't like one word to end on the same letter that the next word starts with. - A really funny bugaboo. - For example, in the song, our song, it was supposed to be when you're on the phone and you talk real low. But I was like, I don't like the real low. So it's turned into when you talk real slow. ♪ When we're on the phone and you talk real slow ♪ ♪ 'Cause it's late and your mama don't know our song is away ♪ - Taylor is famous for her bridges and songwriting. And here I'm just gonna confess. I don't think I'd ever really understand what her bridge is. But I know you guys talked about it. - I think an easy way to think about a bridge is that it's a stand-alone part of the song that comes near the end and you've never heard it before and it probably doesn't repeat. I knew I had to talk about bridges with her because Taylor has made a point to really make the most out of this part of pop songwriting structure. - I think the importance for me of a bridge, it just feels like we're painting a picture, we're setting a scene. You can start like painting the picture in the verse. You can get to the heart of it at the chorus. But then the bridge can be where you zoom back, you walk 20 feet back and you see what this entire painting was supposed to be. Like you've seen brush strokes, you've seen the color tones. But the bridge can be when you step back and you feel everything that that piece of art was supposed to make you feel. That's just how I feel about bridges. - And she zeroes in on something she likes to do that she calls the rant bridge. - We love these rant bridges where it's basically like stream of consciousness, endless pouring out of emotion. Intrusive thoughts like blended with metaphor, with discussion, with shouting. Like you want this rant bridge to feel the most intense of what that feeling is that you're trying to establish over the course of the song. My favorite moment in the interview, in case you wondered, is when Taylor Swift describes to you how an entire song just starts to come to her and that has always felt like the divine in the songwriting process. And she recounts a recent example of that. - Yeah, she's talking about the song Elizabeth Taylor. - She's talking about this really sort of mundane moment of being on vacation with her boyfriend, now fiance, Travis Kelsey. - I go on and on and explaining to Travis like why I love Elizabeth Taylor so much. She fought for artists rights. She was exploited in so many ways. - You can just imagine Travis, you know, in the driver's eater, whatever it is, just sort of like okay, interesting, you know, learning all about Elizabeth Taylor. - I'm just going on and on and I'm like her eyes were violet. Some people said they were blue, some people said they were violet. I think they were violet. And we arrive, we get home, he gets out of the car and I'm just in my head, I'm like this intrusive melody. I'm like, I'd cry my eyes violet, Elizabeth Taylor. And I'm just like scrambling to open my record like app on my phone. - For somebody who is writing songs constantly, I think a conversation easily becomes art. - But that's like one of those spontaneous places where it floats down like a cloud in front of you and all you have to do is grab it and the song transpires from there. It comes as if from nowhere. - I was struck, Joe, by how Taylor Swift thinks about her own reputation as a songwriter. - I see what you did, but she's exceedingly sensitive and she tells you this to the idea that other people have written her songs. - Totally. And then that's something that started very early in her career. Taylor's third album, Speak Now, is one that she wrote entirely alone with no other co-writers. - When I wrote Speak Now, I was 18 and 19 and I was coming from this big, massive moment that I had with an album called Fearless and it had one album of the year at the Grammys and it was this big, it was the first time there was like this big debate over whether I deserved to be there. They're always going to-- - After Fearless, her second album blew up, you had a bunch of people coming out of the woodwork saying, "Ha ha, cute, look at this little girl who's writing her songs." - I was like, these discussions can lead to a really bad place if I don't don't do something to counteract them and to prove it. that "No, it wasn't my co-writers that did all this work." And, yes, I am the author of this entire body of work that I was very proud of. And I think that's something she's had to return to over and over again throughout her career, this idea that, no, no, she, in fact, is the chief architect and author of everything she makes, even if she works with some of the biggest songwriters on Earth. I'd written so many songs alone, and I love collaboration. I love co-writers, but it's not something that I needed. It's one of the things I've always loved and respected about Taylor is that you can tell she is in tune with the conversation around her, even as she's gotten to this level. And if you pay close attention, you can hear her in this interview responding to different lines of criticism. I do kind of like it when people challenge me on something, because I never want to be in the room with creators who are afraid that if they have a better idea, they can't argue with me, because it must be my idea that makes it through. I'm never going to grow that way. When she says something like, "When I am collaborating, it's the best idea wins in the room." A.K.A. I'm not surrounded by "yes, men," which is something, again, that a lot of people have said. Oh, Taylor songs are slipping because she's so famous because no one in the room with her can tell her when she has a bad idea. She does this thing where she not only internalizes the criticism and responds to it in a forum like this, but also responds to it in the music and in the songs and in the way she makes them. I'm glad you brought this up. She talks with really bracing frankness about the concept of criticism and about how she thinks you're supposed to best use it in songwriting and how you're not supposed to use it, and the balancing act of that. I thought that was maybe her savviest and most wise section of this interview. Yeah, criticism has been a huge fuel for me. It's been a huge jumping off point like a creative writing prompt or something. She says basically like, dip into it, get a taste of it, and then use it in your art as fuel. There are so many songs in my career that would not exist, like blank space, would not exist if I hadn't had people being like, here's a slight job on her boyfriend. ♪ Got a long list of ex-lovers ♪ ♪ They'll tell you what I'm insane ♪ ♪ 'Cause you know ♪ And then anti-hero is a song that I'm so proud of still like. ♪ Sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby ♪ ♪ And I'm a monster on the hill ♪ My song doesn't exist if I don't get criticized for every aspect of my personality that people have a problem with. ♪ It's me ♪ ♪ I own the problem ♪ ♪ It's me ♪ ♪ I own the problem ♪ ♪ At the time ♪ My favorite thing when I sit down with new artists or songwriters and I'm like, why are you reading your comments? Like, you're inundating yourself with too much criticism that doesn't really have a focus. But I think a little bit of it, you gotta just be like, this is part of it. ♪ You ♪ ♪ With your words like knives and swords and weapons ♪ Don't make this make you stop writing or make you edit yourself or whatever. If it's an interesting point to you to kind of respond to, then that's a gift for you to be able to write something. Maybe you wouldn't have written something that day. ♪ Pickin' on the weaker man ♪ Don't, like, God, don't go to the notes app and post it. Like, write about it. Make art about this. Don't respond to, like, trolls in your comments. That's not what we want from you. We want your art. ♪ But you don't know someday ♪ ♪ I'll be big enough so you can't hurt me ♪ ♪ So all you're ever gonna be is me ♪ ♪ Why you gotta be so mean? ♪ Joe, a final question. Maybe even a curve ball. Mm. Did you vote for Against Billy Joel? (laughs) Oh, putting me on the spot. I voted against Billy Joel. Why? I find Billy Joel to be schlocky. I think just because people wanna sing your songs at karaoke or a bar, that's one ingredient to a great songwriter. But I don't know that the catalog itself stands up when you put a little more pressure on it. Well, Joe. Thanks for all the hate mail, Michael, in advance. Thank you for most of this conversation. Maybe not the very end. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. ♪ We'll be right back. Jody Rosen, welcome to the Sunday Daily. Thanks, Michael. Great to be here. You're one of the esteemed critics. I would argue. Shucks. Deeply involved in this songwriting project. And we just spoke to Joe Cuscarelli about his conversation with Taylor Swift, just so you know where you're entering here. That's one kind of songwriting tradition. When it comes to this list, that wasn't the tradition you focused on. No, I actually wrote about had conversations with songwriters who represented a bunch of different other styles, idioms, traditions, vibes, if you will. Well, let's start with rap with hip-hop and who you focused on there. Yeah, so I went out to Los Angeles and had a conversation with a New Yorker. That is with arguably the New Yorker, or at least one of them, Jay-Z, who of course is Brooklyn-born and bred. One of our things, the writer, rapper, behind arguably our great New York anthem of the 21st century Empire State of Mine, among many other songs. Beyond Billy Joel's, obviously, yeah. I think of him as sort of a more of a bridge and tunnel bard, but moving on. So Jay-Z, of course, chronicled his life, his kind of hard-scrabble upbringing in Brooklyn, in a lot of his music. His kind of mythic journey from street corner hustler to famous rapper to now mogul, and yep. Billionaire. Jay-Z, of course, a master storyteller, but also kind of a legendary technician. Just a true genius when it comes to writing rhymes, finding rhythmic pockets and flows. Just one of the great practitioners of his art form ever. What was the most revealing thing he said to you about his songwriting process? What was really fascinating speaking to him about sort of how songs start for him? Most times, I'll come up with the flow first. You may have heard people like he does his rainman in studio, 'cause I'm like, "Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh." I'm trying to work out the pockets, and then I'll fill it with words. Jay-Z is famous for hearing it coming to the studio, hearing a beat, and kind of writing very quickly in the studio to that beat. These are the ingredients I got to work with. I'm making this type of meal, and I have these sort of things, and that's it. You take one of your arms and you tie it behind your back. That's a challenge, but it's a challenge as a writer that you relish and you want. So if you listen to, like, a great early song of his, like, "Dead Presidents, too." [MUSIC] What you hear there is intricately rhymed lines with double entendres, triple entendres, puns, the word play, all that. [MUSIC] For me, that's where I really drive, like, when I'm challenged to, like, do a thing. To make a word mean more. It's triple entendre, quadruple entendre. That's when I feel like I'm in my best. So Jay-Z had to be on this list because he is just a master practitioner of this great art form, which maybe not enough people recognize as central to songwriting itself. Now, from Jay-Z, you then veered into a kind of songwriting tradition that, in my mind, is kind of unheralded and to a certain degree, unseen. And that is a group of writers in Tennessee. Yeah, so I wrote about the three honorees on our list who are probably the least well-known because they operate mostly behind the scenes. Not entirely behind the scenes because one of our three, Brandy Clark, is herself a hallowed singer-songwriter. But she does a lot of work behind the scenes, coming out of the tradition that is referred to by the catch-all music row, which, of course, refers to the kind of row of songs. publishing offices in Nashville. That has been the epicenter of the country, music, business, and songwriting tradition for decades, generations. The other two people who are in this little collective that we chose to recognize as a songwriter named Shane McNally and a guy named Joshua was born collectively between them. They have written dozens and dozens of hits over the past decade and a half. But they represent this tradition of writers who approach songwriting as a nine to five job. They get together, have what they call co-writes, little sessions at last for a couple of hours. Usually it starts at 11 in the morning. And then they ping pong ideas, chord changes, melodies back and forth. And they tend to produce a lot of songs, like many songs over the course of a week. And of course, these writers aren't the ones generally speaking whose names go on the record. You know, they kind of shop their songs to stars, to performing artists. It's a different mode of production than, you know, okay, the singer-songwriter who's pouring out his or her heart, you know, in that kind of like a ironic, romantic mode. These people are trying to write hits and trying to place songs. What are some of the hits that this collective of three songwriters have made? Yeah, so this group are notable because while they operate out of this music road tradition, they're also kind of, I would say, subverters of tradition. That is, they came in and kind of innovated a little bit. They kind of teamed up with some of the more progressive stars down in Nashville. So artists like Casey Musgraves. She's sung about smoking weed, about being who you are, no matter what your sexual preference is. Follow your era. That was a song that was written by Brandy Clark and Shane McNally. Another great Casey Musgrave song, kind of her debut single, I believe, is a song called Mary Go Around, which was written by Josh Osborne, Casey Musgraves and Shane McNally. And that song is a kind of gritty look at small town life in I believe East Texas where Casey is from. It looks at things like adultery, dead end lives in an unvarnished way that was very surprising. Shane McNally and Josh Osborne have written a lot of songs with Sam Hunt, who's a big star down there these days and who is another kind of innovator. He really has brought an R&D sound and sensibility to country music. We'll talk about your conversation with them and what you learned about how this trio, and I know it's sometimes in different formations three or just two, how they do this work. Yeah, so I went down there and interviewed them in a place called the Bluebird Cafe, which is a legendary songwriter as Hangout. They spoke a lot about how they're kind of constantly writing and how that even impacts their everyday life. There's a great scene in the movie of Walker where Dewey Cox is laughing and here having this big fight and he says, all right, that's fine, I get it. You're innocent and I'm guilty. Guilty as charged. I'm guilty as charged. Guilty as charged. Don't you dare write a song right now, Dewey! And that's exactly how my husband feels because he'll be talking and my glaze over and he'll be like, are you writing a song? This is our life. But that's how it happens. It's scary how accurate that feels. Another thing they said about their dynamic is how they kind of function as a support group for one another. Osborne and McNally were talking about the process of working with Sam Hunt on one of his very first songs, a great song called Take Your Time. I don't know if you're looking at me and you probably smile like that all the time. I don't mean about it. Sam and I had a co-write set up with an established older writer that had had some hits. We were both very much in all of this person admired this person, really excited to be in the room with them. Sam Hunt brought that idea into a session and there was an older writer there. Sam said, I have this idea for a song. I think it would be really interesting in this day and age. If you had a song where in the verses I was literally talking to the girl. And that idea landed with a thud. And the older writer started laughing and he said, I don't think anybody's going to want to hear that on the radio, Sam. And he left the room to get some coffee. But Osborne and McNally knew that it was a great idea. The second he walked out of the room. I said, don't tell that to anybody else. We're going to play that for Shane because I knew Shane would get. He got the last laugh. He did get the last laugh. But, you know, that's true. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting because you know, these guys are, again, they're trying to write hits. It is different than, you know, the kind of confessional tradition that we associate with senior songwriters who operate more as, you know, kind of a lone creators. Finally, Jody, you spend time with a songwriter on this list of 30 whose creations, in my mind, feel like they kind of belong to all of us, somebody who wrote dance anthems in particular that are so ingrained in our lives that we, and here I mean me, forgot to ask who actually wrote them. Yeah, I spoke to Nile Rogers, who is co-founder, band leader of Sheik, the great 70s, early 80s disco band. He is a legendary guitarist. When you hear his guitar sound, if you don't off the top of your head know what Nile Rogers guitar sound sounds like, trust me, you know it. Just listen to, for instance, the song "Good Times." These are the "Good Times." He's written songs like, "I'm coming out the Diana Ross song." We are family. We are family. He's the greatest dancer, sister sledge songs. La Freque. Freak out. Forgive me. These songs are, what I love about them is, you know, they sound like glossy products of a very sophisticated recording studio environment, but they also sound like songs that were found under a rock. Because they sound like they have always been and should always have been. Yeah, they're tall mudec. They've always been there. But of course, they haven't always been there. They came out of a very particular moment, cultural and historical moment. And that's what's so great about talking to Nile Rogers. I went to this club called "The G.G. Barnum Room." He talks about, for instance, writing the great song "I'm coming out." And that particular night was not just a heavy trans night, but for some reason I guess they were having a Diana Ross look alike kind of night. So I was standing now. I was at a club downtown in the bathroom out of your own. I just happened to look to my left and see like six or seven deep Diana Rosses. And I looked to my right and I see six or seven deep Diana Rosses. And sort of like a lightning bolt, it hit him. I ran outside and I called Bernard up because, you know, it was the days of payphones. We didn't have cell phones yet. He called his co-writer co-founder of Sheik and partner of the great bassist Bernard Edwards. I said, "Wake up, wake up. Write this down." He said, "What?" I said, "Right down. I'm coming out." He said, "What?" I said, "Right down. I'm coming out because I know I'm going to get drunk and forget." Now, what struck him at that moment was it was both a bolt of inspiration, artistic inspiration and a commercial lightning flash. I'm telling you, if we do this, the gay community alone will buy a million records to have Diana Ross come. I'm coming out. So, do you have the distinction, or I guess you have the burden of being the last word on this list, of the 30 best living American songwriters? So, when you look at this list, all the names on it, from Taylor, to Jay-Z, to Nile, and recognizing, of course, how imperfect the creation of any list inevitably is, what wisdom do you extract from the project? It's obviously a list that represents all kinds of genres, traditions, eras, no pun intended. Oh, yeah. But what I hear is a kind of grand tradition that pulls us way back through the myths of history. American popular song has lots of strains, lots of streams. So, you can go all the way back to West Africa and follow. the kind of Greo tradition that West African and slave people brought to this country through field haulers, spirituals, the blues, up through jazz, the great traditions of African American music. You can look at the music that came from the British Isles and found a way into Appalachian folk song and country music. You can look at the music that Eastern European and Western European immigrants, lots of Irish people and Jews brought to New York right here in New York City. All these different strains fed into the music of the individuals on our list. So when you listen to a real building songwriter like Carol King or even Paul Simon who began his career as a very young man in the real building, you're hearing stuff that came out of that Tin Pan Alley tradition. It's the same for everyone on this list whether you're listening to Willie Nelson sing "Crazy" or whether you're listening to Stephen Mary. The kind of quirky indie songwriter who updates Tin Pan Alley in all kinds of mischievous ways. When you're listening to Smoky Robinson or someone like Miss Yelliot who's music sounds like it's from outer space or Stevie Wonder. So what I hear is maybe not a single tradition but maybe a grand tradition. One big tradition that brings together all these different strains but represents a kind of hive mind, a kind of something that can be called American music, you know, an e pluribus unum way of song. Well Jody, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you Michael. Today's episode was produced by Luke Vanderplugue and Alex Barron. It was edited by Wendy Door. Our production manager is Franny Carr Toth. This episode was engineered by Sophia Landman. Contains original music by Diane Wong. If you want to watch extended video interviews of some of the artists we talked about today including Taylor Swift, Jay Z, the Nashville 3 and Nile Rodgers. Visit nytimes.com/30greatest. That's nytimes.com/30greatest. That's it for the daily. I'm Mike of Obaro. See you tomorrow.