The 3 things that Make or Break a New Artist

2024 revolutionized the music industry. From breakthrough new artists who have been crafting and practicing for 10 years to some of the biggest in the industry who have had record-breaking sales, I mean, we even saw new emerging artists who had had a number one song breaking records on Billboard charts. It seems like there's more new artists than ever, and it has never been more exciting to be a part of the music industry, which can't be thinking, why? Why do we have more artists now than we ever have in the past? I think there's a lot of reasons for this with the innovations of technology and streaming, democratizing the way people discover and consume music, this decentralization of the label structure, and more than anything, I think it's just more possible for an artist to succeed on their own. Simply having social media and these tools for discovery has made it so you can be an artist from your bedroom. And time and time again, especially I feel like in the endemic, we saw how that happened and people were able to build entire careers without these teams around them, especially in the beginning. So how do you do that? How do you grow as an artist in 2025? Well, that is exactly the question we sent out to solve here today. Welcome back to Nikki and I, I'm your host, Nikki Verde, and we have our very first guest who's so excited and honored to be here. Khalisha Midlani, a very, very good friend who has worked in music, and I mean, I've known her for a while, but Khalisha just introduced herself to you. - Okay, hi everyone, my name is Khalisha. I've been working in the music business for basically my entire life. I got my start being extremely online, running a One Direction fan account and now I have experience working at various record labels, like Epic Records and Interscope Records, leading digital strategies for some of your paper artists. I need to breathe. - No, that's great. - That was pretty good though. - That was great. I love that you came from One Direction Twitter. It is truly beautiful how much One Direction Twitter has like influenced music industry. - Yeah. - Like it's crazy how many people have had life along careers in music because of Stan Twitter. And something super, super interesting. So like if you are allowed to share is there any like artist projects or anything that you've worked on that you were really excited about? - Yeah, I mean, day one of my first time, or first day working in the music business, I got thrown into a Travis Scott project, which was insane. So my first day on the job, I was thrown into Jack Boys, we were gonna release in like a couple of weeks and we did a really cool activation for that. I spent the last year working on Lana Del Rey's Ocean Boulevard, which was a we met, or not actually we went through John Vitties. - We met through John Vitties. - Who is also another artist that I got to work on, World Music Radio was awesome. And yeah, those are probably like top three. - Great. - I didn't mention this in my intro, but I'm now leading artist partnerships at SoundCloud. So. - A. - Yes, it's fun. Getting to work at the intersection of music and tech, not to sound like that guy, but you know. - No, it is. And also SoundCloud and other great thing we can talk about too. I mean, I think you think like Billy was like the SoundCloud kid. And that whole era of music was super, super fascinating. So that is so awesome. And diving into the presentation. - Let's go. - Thanks for the audience. This is actually a presentation I gave at a label recently. So I'm interested, I'll see what you guys think of it. And maybe a bit of insight into what it's like with you hire Nicky Brayden. Please, my email's open. (laughing) But with that, build a great artist. I kind of place it into three categories. Number one, obviously is music. If you're listening to this podcast, you like music. We all know music is important. It is what you create is what you output. With that though, I think the ethos is most important. So it is not just about what you do, how you do it, or why you do it. Like what is your creative purpose? What is what makes you and your story different from anyone else out there in the world listening? And then last is the visual. I think that we live in a world now where music is a visual sport. Like it is a visual realm. I would argue that upwards of 90% of the time, you're even discovering new music, you are seeing it in some way. Whether that is through social media, whether that is through watching an artist's interview, whether that is you in the club dancing with your friends and like physically seeing how people move when the song comes on. Like music is this visual realm, not even to account for things like music videos and outfits. And you know what I mean? Like a rollout of an album is obviously extremely visual, but I think that music is a visual medium. And then you can see also how these things intersect as we'll talk about later on. Like lyrics is a great example of the music and the ethos of the artist intersecting and how you're telling a story. Or, you know, I always say like references and symbolism is a great example of how the visual and the ethos can kind of overlap, right? Like, you know, someone referencing Guana versus somebody referencing Britney Spears is not gonna be the same visual, you know what I mean? And they are different ethos but combined in different ways. So this is kind of how I have always thought about it. And it'll be interesting. I guess as I walk you through to see like how you think similarly or differently or things you've worked on in the past. Totally, I love how you've broken it down here. I mean, I don't really think about it in almost this like chart perspective, but I do look at it almost like, I guess that the visual in my brain is almost like like a roadblocks or like Minecraft world, like a fake world, right? - I like that. - Where it's like, okay, I'm walking through this. Like if an artist had like a Neopets world, almost like the Neopets, like when you're going to, you know, the gift shop or whatever, like what does each world look like if you're going to walk through it. And I've been thinking about this like even before these overalls or stuff. - No, I love that. I love that. And it's also it's like, what are the NPCs wearing? - Yes. - You know, like what restaurants are in the world compared to-- - How are they behaving? - Yeah. - Who greets you when you like land in the land? - Mm-hmm. - No, that's so interesting. I really like that analogy. That's a good one. We should circle back to that like the visual point. So talking about ethos, I always talk about this. It's this beautiful chat talk I've talked about in the past called the Golden Circle by Simon Sinek. Essentially, it's talking about how every creative person has three layers to what they do, right? And your why factor is the most important. The deepest, most inner layer that builds the deepest community and deepest connection. However, on the outer layer are the things that you do the most or people see the most. So out is what? What you do is you're a musician, you're an artist. Congratulations. You and one billion other fuckers on this planet, right? Like just being an artist is not interesting. And also, I think this is interesting when you think about like content, like promoting the music. You know, what you do is somebody like doing a cover of a song. Right, congrats. You're a singer, you have a good voice. Anyone else can cover that song. Then we go how you do it. How you do it is a little bit more interesting, right? Maybe you use a certain production style. Maybe you use certain software. Maybe you do certain things with your vocals. Maybe it really, I think how speaks to like education almost. Like it is identifying why you are an expert and why somebody should listen to you or believe you. So, you know, a great example of like how thing I think about that like when viral recently was like that clip from the Billie Eilish concert where she was like layering her vocals live. You know what I mean? Like that is, it shows how she is a good singer. Like this is literally how I made this song and the fact that I can do this makes you see like, wow, she's so talented, right? But again, the interesting thing about this like how content I think about is anybody can copy that, right? Like is it impressive and amazing, Billie did it? Yes, can another singer on their tour layer something and their vocals? Absolutely, right? It's impressive, it's educational, but it's not unique. Then the most inner circle is why. Why you do it, your why factor is like this unique piece of your human story that no one else can replicate. It is why you wrote the song. It is why you got into music, whatever, whether that is, you had this very, very specific relationship that had this breakup and this fight that made you so angry that you sat down and wrote that song, right? Like no one else can write that song because they weren't in that relationship with that person on that day, whatever. Why you do it is the most important factor towards I think building a connection. You know, anyone can write a song about heartbreak but like really making the audience understand why this is the type of man I was with. This is how long we were together. This is the things he did to me, right? Like this why factor is how people see themselves reflected in you. They might not be identical one to one relationship. They're like, oh my god, that reminds me of this. Boyfriend, I have blah, blah, blah, blah. So I think also the why factor is the hardest to tell. It's hard to get people to anchor on to that story or like fundamental piece of you, but it is necessary. And I think people who really don't do well or you see, I think a lot of times they saw early pandemic. These artists who got huge on TikTok like just doing things like covers, you know what I mean? And they did not build a story or like an ethos or a why factor. One of my favorite quotes is context is important, but not everyone deserves it. And I love that. I think Lana does that really well, right? She's telling you a lot without telling you anything versus some other artists who are really like world building and like throwing everything almost in your face. So I think why can be told in many different ways, whether it's like poetry and you're dying to dive in and like learn every bit, like who is this about? Like let's track down the, you know, timelines of, you know, the whole stand behavior of like figuring things out versus like I'm gonna tell you that this is what happened to me. - Yeah, that is a really, really good point too. Sometimes almost not saying things, like what she doesn't say speaks louder than what she does say, which is really, really interesting. And also again, talking about this like minecraft example too. Like I feel like with Lana, like she does it, she communicates her why through visuals. I think that's like what's most impressive about Lana. Like I would argue that the biggest like pioneer of what the modern like artist persona is, is Lana. - Correct. - Obviously not in terms of like everybody looking like her but in terms of the way she did it, like through music videos, through social media Tumblr, way back in the day. And thinking about this world, you know, like, like Noz Faratu is in the movie theater of Lana Del Rey's Minecraft universe. Like even though she's never talked about it, like it's just something about how it like, I would say like the ethos of a Lana fan, [BLANK_AUDIO] like true art, beautiful things, vintage. And like somehow that can see its way into other elements of culture. - For sure. - Another great example, I think of an ethos that someone I've talked about in the past is Do Chi. - Love this girl. - Right now, especially like specifically the song to "Dialos" or "River," I have said this song goes over a relationship, a breakup, getting cheated on, hindestering her entire apartment, her having a drug addiction, her having an alcohol addiction, her getting clean, her having her first viral sex, her pressure is from the label in the industry after going viral from that success, her struggle with the label, then to writing this album. Like it is an autobiography put into song. And I think not everybody does it in the way Do Chi does it in the song 'cause it's so literal. Like it literally, I think the first line into the song is like old dude from 2019, like it is literally like timeline, action, consequence, moving forward. And compare that to someone like Lana, Lana would never do that. Ever, ever, ever, ever. But I think I like this song as an example of ethos because I think it's so literal that it's like a very good thing to study, but is showing like you can't like this song without liking her as a person, or understanding her story as a person. - You can't, or you can. - You can't. - Okay. - You think you can. - I mean, I think like with how it's showing up online, there's, I would argue there's a lot of people who like listen that don't care because of the fact that it's just like, it's like an earworm kind of, but subconsciously you're like downloading her entire story. - Yes, well, I think, I mean, I think in any and all music, there is always X percent of the audience who like doesn't consume music to the level that like we do. (laughing) - Not everyone's a freak. - Like not, yeah, like literally not with people are like, "Oh, I just like that song." You know, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like that's beautiful, it's passive listening. You know, it's the same way how sometimes you like, watch a TV show, you don't necessarily pay attention to it all the time. But I think when I'm talking about, I guess like, building a fandom, you know what I mean? Like if you, or regardless of whether you love it or hate it, you at least know it is maybe more interesting. You know, like, you can't listen to the song and not know about her life, you do. Like, right, like even if you don't download that and encode it perfectly, it is there for the people who want to find it. Find it as you're talking about earlier, like with Lana. But like, interesting, I would love to hear your example. Like, and like talking about an artist like Lana, like what way do you think she, how does one establish that sense of ethos without directly stating it to an audience? I want to say like it was timing for her specifically in terms of like what distribution channels were available at the time. But if you think about who like has referenced her, right? If you talk about like Lana's daughters in the music business, like Billy, Nessa Barrett, Madison Beer, for example, all of them are kind of taking a play in her book while saying like, okay, we're gonna show this through visuals. We're gonna show this through having like really public breakups. We're gonna show this through whatever it is that we're going through, you're kind of gonna know about it. But we're not gonna give you everything. And I'm trying to think, like, we might have to go this out. But something Lana did tell me once when we're talking about world building for her, and like when she shot down ideas of mine, she said it's not for everyone, when like period. - Interesting. - And I took that and like really applied it to my entire life and started gatekeeping myself so hard. (laughing) - I love that. - But we were having kind of like, we were talking about like boys, I think, and like dating and love and what, you know, different songs meant. And she was explaining what certain songs meant that she hasn't publicly explained. And when I asked like ways to kind of, or when I was pitching ways to share it online or share it through her community, she was like, it's not for everyone. So I think people taking pages in that book were like, - Interesting. - I don't know if Billie has outwardly said the things, like the topics that her album is about. I think she has done a little bit more storytelling than someone like Lana Wood. But she's never outwardly being like, this song is about Jessie Rutherford. - Right. - I don't think she said that. - No, I don't think so either. - But like-- - But it's also like you're supposed to know. - It's very implied, right? - Yeah. - And there's like worlds being built around songs like that where it's like when she's playing it at the concert and like definitely crawl since an audience. Like, you know, everyone's like, "Ah, it's so crazy, it's crazy, it's crazy, it's crazy." - Right, right, yeah. And I mean, I think like what you said, honestly like the way I interpret it is it's like references. - Yeah. - It's references. And what's interesting even when we were talking about like, you know, like the daughters of Lana, I think they all reference Lana but in different ways. - Correct. - You know, like Billy is a clear vocal Lana reference. Visuals could be different. - Yeah. - Right, like Lana would not be caught dead in anything Billy I was just more than ever. And vice versa, right? - Yeah. - Like it's just not, but it's clearly like sonically, you know, like you hear ocean eyes and like you feel Lana in that. And other artists have done it in different ways. So, you know, you can talk about like an addison, like Dipepsy was like, very heavy intentional on it. And I think that is a good thing. Like if you want people to understand an emotional factor about you an easy way to do that is reference something that has that emotional factor. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? And in a way that also doesn't have to be so black and white 'cause it's not for everybody. - It's not for everyone. - Which is cool. I mean, something I talked about in this channel a lot too is I feel like a lot of time artists, like when they try to appeal to less people, they end up appealing to more people. And it's because it's like, yeah, this is not going to resonate with everybody on Earth. But the few people it does resonate with will internalize it and accept it so deeply that they want to talk about it. And they share it in the car with their friend and they put it on at the club. But you know what I mean? Like it's something like the depth of connection causes actually wider reach than just this like mass appeal. - Yeah, it's personal at the end of the day and like everything is subjective. - Yeah, going to the next slide. Something like I had always said too, like when talking about building an artist is I feel like the best and most, you know, quick successful artists we've seen are all people that you can almost describe in a sentence. And you understand who they are, right? Like Charlie X X party girl, Beyonce. I would say she's the queen of music in every genre. Taylor Swift is like girl next door. Olivia Rodrigo is like, angsty teen. Sabrina Carpenter is like, you know, sexual unapologetic flirt. Billy is like generational talent artists. You know, chapel is very like the Midwest princess queer icon. You know, like almost something that is so digestible that it is so short, you can say in a sentence. And also it makes you understand who they appeal to. I think really well. You know, like Charlie versus Taylor, they couldn't be different from when each other sonically. But I so deeply understand who likes Charlie and why they like her. And people who wouldn't like Charlie and why they wouldn't like her. And I think she, what's interesting about her is she doesn't care. Yeah, it's not for everybody, you know, like she under like there's so many people out there who are not going to get, I'm everywhere in so Julia. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like even it's she doesn't care. I'd argue though, it still got to people who didn't get her before. Oh, yeah, a lot of normies. And I say normies with love. Normie, yeah, a lot of normies are thinking that they're so Julia, you know, and that they're everywhere. And I think that's the beauty of this era. It's like it really transcended beyond the people that didn't care before. Yes. But I think that was not, that was a result, not the intention. Correct. But that is also an inevitability of just like success. You know anything, like once you get to a certain level, it people just, well, saying whatever, blah, blah, blah, endless, and like it, whatever. And that's fine. Also, I think like weirdly artists get in their own head about that. There was this really good quote, God, I can't fucking remember it now. But it's so applicable to this. It was like, don't spend your time being niche, waste, like, pining to be something bigger. Because once you get bigger, you can never go back to being niche. Something like that. And I was like, oh, that's like a really interesting thing. Like this idea. Don't spend your time pining over being niche, or sorry. Pining over getting bigger. Oh, yeah. Like people in these, like, that have, like, these really, like, small, like niche, like, cold, like, fandoms. You know, always pined for, like, greater appreciation. Or like the scale that they see other artists having. But I think once you get to that scale, you can't put it back in the bottle. Yeah. You know, like people know you in a way that they know. And there's going to be people who have no idea what you're talking about or referencing or blah, blah, blah. And there's a beauty and, like, enjoying that time when maybe not as many people like you, but the people who do like you love you. Yeah. Gatekeep your soul. You know. Gatekeep your soul. 25. Gatekeep your soul. You must. Gatekeep all things. We're bringing back gatekeeping. Charlie did say, at that one private event that she did where she had that quote, it's like, it's hot being ahead. Like, she said, there's power. Oh, no, no, sorry. It was Hollywood reporter event or something, where she goes, you know, there's power in the niche. And I think even at the time she was getting so much critical acclaim for a brat, but she still felt like this is niche. This is still a subculture. Absolutely. And I think even when she was having her biggest commercial success, all the things she did to market, that album were still only to the subculture. Yeah. It was boiler room. It was her doing the performance in the middle of upstate in New York, like that rave. It was her shutting down Times Square. Even as things to her to scale, it made it so, like, Charlie isn't chasing the party wherever Charlie goes is the party. My favorite thing was she didn't follow the traditional, like, press mold. Like, I loved that she waited to go on SNL. Because people are like, okay, it's album release. We're going on SNL this week, right? Yeah. And she waited so long. And I was like, yes, this is cool. Because also, like, brat was like the gift that kept on giving. Yeah. Like, it somehow kept getting bigger. And it's still giving. And it's still giving, right? It was like the album that it was Lord, that it was Remix, then it was Billy, then it was, or sorry, then it was the Deluxe, then it was Billy, then it was Troy, then it was Remix album, then it was Sweat Tor, then you know what I mean? Like, it, she knew that. Also, I think another interesting thing too, is like, a lot of the times I think artists who get the biggest are people who just put it out a lot. Yeah. Like, that is really, I think, something at the music industry has not latched on to yet of in this age of social media. The album does not matter that much. Like, I think that this is something, like, I would say ice spice, although she did not have a, has not had a good year. which we'll talk about later on. but when she got a best new artist on, and at one point had like, oh, I think 50 million months on the listeners last year, with no album, she was just like putting out a song every month for like 14 months. - Right. - I was like, I think the reason she got so big is because there was no moment for the momentum to fall, you know, like it just kept getting bigger. She was just putting shit out all the time. And I think that really helped. Like that's like not something that I think a lot of artists have realized yet. I was like, also, like not every song needs to be your best fucking work. Like you, it just put it out and see people like it or not. (laughs) Which is a very, very interesting thing. Going into talking about the music, sadly, my hot take, music is not always the most important thing. I think the job of the song is to tell the story of the ethos, but if the ethos isn't good, it doesn't mean the song will be good. And this is really lyricism 101. And I think music should always find a way to connect back to the ethos. And it doesn't have to be so deep. I'm not saying every single song needs to be your deepest darkest, most emotional trauma. But I think like an artist I think of who did this so well was chapel, right? Like the ethos is, I am a queer girl who's from the Midwest with a conservative family. I grew up with this entire life of not being able to accept who I was, love who I wanted to love. And then I moved to California and then I had this, you know, big moment of being surrounded by art and love and acceptance for the first time ever. And every song connects back to that thesis, right? Whether it is like ping ponging club is very literal, right? You know, I'm having dreams of Santa Monica, blah, blah, blah, blah, like lines of the song to Good Luck Bay, which is, you know, this talking at a very queer experience being in love with a woman who you know is gay, but it does not, has not accepted that herself. So she like can't be with you to casual getting eaten out in the passenger seat, right? Like not every song is equally as deep or as interesting, but like I can tell you that one sentence that thesis statement and directly explained to you every single song that she has released, how it can expect to that. And I think that is the most important thing, you know, like not, and to compare it to someone who also blew up this year, but isn't super deepest like a Sabrina. Like Sabrina is like the Haqra, you know, she's popular, she's cutesy, she's flirty. And espresso is not a deep song, but it is that me espresso, like that's me, you know, like you, I'm not heartbroken over you. You should be excited, I even walked in the room. - Yeah. - That's her, the ethos. So if you go to this next slide, two people that I think really has popped up to me in the past year are ice ice ice into Alipa. I'm very interested to hear your take on this. - One thing I will make very clear on this podcast, I am Alipa's defender. I will defend that girl till the day I die. So let's go. - I love to Alipa too. - I do, but it is undeniable, and I even liked a lot of ice ice ice music. But it is undeniable they both had bad years. - I don't think so. Have you seen the Brit nominations? Come on, I'm sorry Americans did not get radical optimism. You just don't have taste. - I just don't think there was something to get. And I think that's the issue. - Sorry, there's an entire Minecraft world or radical optimism. There is, it is totally a world around it. You just don't get it. - You're putting the radical, radical optimism. - Yeah, so yeah, there is a world. - Okay. - Just because she didn't do like a Brat style torture to pull its department style, like situation, I don't think she needs to be conventional. Do Alipa's radical optimism, like, okay, what first? Sorry, sorry, I respect this. - No, I love this. - What, when you think do Alipa, right, what do you think of? - Europe. - Okay, always on vacation. Instagram, great food, service 95, right? - No. - Radical optimism is all about the way you can go through just something so heartbreaking and horrible. And then, I'm just gonna like live my life and be so optimistic about it. Like, I'm happy for you. You know, it's the end of an era. I think she was like, it's just, it's great. - Great song. That's one of the great ones. Also, I'm obsessed with these walls. Those may hurt some of them. But I think the problem is not that I don't think you're wrong. I think that that story was not clear to 99% of people. - That's fair. - I think that's the issue. Like, there was no storytelling of this. Like, what is, I mean, even think about it's a little things too. Like, I can tell you so clearly. And I have what I would wear to live in a Rodrigo concert, what I would wear to a Billie Eilish concert, what I would wear to a Charlie XAX concert. No idea what I would wear to a Billie Eilish concert. - Just be hot. - But that is not, and that's, you need more. Tate is hot. Sabrina is hot. Billie is hot. You need more. This is what I'm saying. Like, I think like a big mistake, even like within ethos can be like a little thing. Like, I think something that really, really blew up talking about ice spice in the beginning was she leaned into this identity of being a New Yorker. Every song she put out was somehow connecting back to being a New Yorker, right? Like, Deli. A LA artist cannot write that song. It does not make sense. It's so unique. Even the music video just being shot in the Deli. Like, it was everything. It was iconic. And that made it. So, her ethos was tied to this piece of identity. And then when she shifted to like Y2K, do you know how many fucking people have done Y2K? I'm tired of Y2K, bro. Everyone, we're all referencing Y2K every 10 minutes. Like, it's not unique and interesting to me anymore. Yeah. But at least I think like her leaning into New York is a city with a cold like following. Like people who are New Yorkers are passionate about being New Yorkers. And I think that was something that really, really worked for her. And like, do a, again, like I just don't, like when I think of do as branding, it's anything artists and other artists can do. Like, you think dancer, I think Tate, you think, like she housing really, really incredible vocals also. But like, I wouldn't say she's a vocalist. Like, it's not what she's known for. I can't think of what she is known for. I can't think of like brands and things. It would make so much sense for a collaboration with Dua Lipa. I disagree. Good, then disagree with me. I want to hear it like, why are you disagree? Yeah, and look, I don't think you're wrong. I think a lot of people have this take, right? She didn't do anything traditional in the sense of world building, but she did it her way. And I think if we didn't have this almost like model that exists where you must create a world where you must have strong visuals, like for the purpose of this thesis, I think Dua Lipa is the perfect example of someone who did it wrong, right? Okay. I think she did not build a strong visual identity around it. I will argue that there is some information that the podcast cannot know that prevents people from seeing the real world that was built. I don't think I disagree with what you're saying. I think that my problem is that the anchor is not planted anywhere. Yeah. That's what I need. I want her to be visual. Or not to be visual, more specific then. I feel like if Dua Lipa should literally make an album called "European Summer Vacation". Like something like that, like literally. Yeah, I mean, you don't have to change the title a little bit, but I think that she so personifies this feeling of dance and pop and high energy. I think very back something you and I have talked about in the past is positive pop. I think that's why Dua Lipa really blew up in the beginning when I think of like self-titled and future nostalgia was that she was one of the only artists in this time of like, you know, the tailors and the Olivia's and the Belize, like those types of artists blowing up. That was the only like, I am hot. I am the hot girl. You know, like even I think way back to like 2015's era, that was what was interesting about like Taylor versus Ariana. You know, they never felt like they were in the same world because Taylor was like a sad girl poet and Ariana was like, hot girl, you're obsessed with me, vocalist. Okay. And I would say that they never felt like they were competition. Yeah, like they weren't in competition ever. And I think Dua has struggled to figure out where she is in that spectrum. I think if you look at Dua as a person, right? Positive loves to enjoy nice things, loves to read, really values her intelligence and being all spoken and health. And these are clear motifs that you see in her lifestyle, right? If her Instagram was like a content strategy, you know who she is and what she likes. And I think if you look at, you know, self-titled and future nostalgia, they were really strong visually. I think she went like in on future nostalgia. She couldn't go as in on radical optimism. But I do think her lifestyle, we're just using social, right? Really did reflect what she's trying to convey is like, you're not going to see me like hold up writing this album in a mountain because I'm sad over my breakup. It's like, I'm going to go experience the world and show my taste through my newsletter. And I have all these like multifaceted things about me. And I'm not going to do the standard like little show pony things that everyone expects me to do. I'm going to do a really awesome show at the Royal Albert Hall. And I'm going to like launch little activations with with my my fans, right? Yeah. I do think that there were a lot of other lovers that she could have done. Like, I think one idea I had when I was really disappointed about the marketing initially was like, this red hair was such a moment for this album. She fumbled not. Why wasn't there a beach London club, right? Like, or like, I don't even feel like it was like, like I wish she would have used the motif of red. Yeah, color would have been great. Color something. I think that's why people were confused. Like why red hair blew album, you know? I don't know. It was like a weird, like that's what I'm saying. Yeah. I don't think that the story wasn't there. I think that our fundamental disagreement here is you are saying things that are factual. What I'm saying is the facts aren't connecting. Yeah, it's not connecting. And that is not for everyone. But it's not wasn't it wasn't for many people. It was originally on this one, but it was for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, again, like and it was great music. Like I really like this album. Truly, but I think that that's why. And again, it's interesting because at one point, you in the next video. and what continues to be one of the biggest artists of all time. She's one of the only people who have two top 10 albums in the top 10 of most dream things on Spotify. But also again, I think this disagreement is like good. Like the fact that we consume the art differently is very, very good. But for the sake of time, we gotta go to the visuals. So again, talking about visuals is like, I think it's telling the story of the ethos through some sort of visual. And great visual storytellers transcend the medium of just music, a world is more than just a song. Like, I love this quote. If you wanna be great at fashion, study anything besides fashion, art, history, politics, anything, it doesn't matter what it is. You need to gain perspective on something else and take that back to fashion. And I think it's a quote about fashion, but I think it applies to all art. - Yeah. - And essentially just this idea that like, if you are constantly studying other musicians only, then the only thing you're gonna put out is something that is some blend or melt of what these other musicians are already doing. Whereas if you are consuming new stimuli, then you will create something new. Is I think really like what the foundational quote. Yeah, exactly. It's, I mean, because everything is source material plus some alchemy of your creative input towards the thing. Like we are all in average some of like the hundreds of thousands of things we've all consumed. So when you wanna think of something new, consume new things. And when it talks to, again, like I think about like, one of the best most impressive visuals of this year, possibly of all time is Brat. Like regardless of whether you like it or hate the music, you cannot deny that Brat was everywhere. And I think that this is the definition of like a visual that personified to the ethos. Like it was Brat Summer, it was crying in the club, it was being sweaty and not apologizing for it. And like everything she did was in pursuit of that ethos, right, to the boiler room, to shutting down Times Square, to having that music video with like all of those people in it, right, these people like that personified Brat. She never explained how or why they were Brat, but you saw these 10 people sitting in a room and understood like why they would be friends. Almost, you know what I mean? I'm talking about, it's not for everyone. It was this combination of references built a profile as to like what was Brat. And then you could then take that profile and assign it onto anything and everything. Yeah. And if you weren't already in those existing worlds, it required you to do research, right? And it in turn made all those people even more famous. Oh, for sure. For sure, for sure. And, you know, I think that that, and then we saw how Brat, you know, I mean, there was literally like runways of using this awful green color that they had never used before and cars and you know, all the brands changed their logo to it. To like that was another thing. I think that was interesting was that it was so simple that it could be easily repeated in a way that was cool because it allowed the fandom to run with it, I think in ways that she never even really expected. And it's still not done, which I think is great. Honestly, it might never be done. Like, we will never see that color and not think Brat. That, but also like the meme generators of like how you can use the font. I think a lot of things get done really quickly and tired really quickly. I'm not tired of it. No, I still think it's funny. It's so funny. It's so funny. And that meme generator is whoever came up with that deserves fucking race. I mean, like, I want to create a director's Instagram right now and like, it's just like this feed, man. Like, she did such great work. It's correct. Like, it is party, where she was the party happened. And that is, she is the party girl, right? And, you know, to contrast someone, like Charlie, I think of Lana. Lana is, what's fascinating to me about Lana is she is not new and trendy. She romanticizes this time of the past. She is not, she's timeless, right? Like what Lana has referenced in the 50s or 60s or whatever, you know, like the Jackie Kennedy and those types of things are like things that have already happened will always be there and always exist in the world that they are in. And I think that was so interesting about Lana is she is this antithesis of what it means to be a pop star, right? She makes pop music, I guess, but it's not a beat in high pitch, it's like slow and methodical. Her outfits are very retro, not like new and trendy and sexy. Like, everything about her is this antithesis of what should be her or what should be expected of somebody in her career path. And that, I think, is what made her so unique. I don't know, I'm interested to hear in your take as to like why, like, Lana is this blueprint of the persona. I think it's fresh. I think it's unique. I think she's really someone who has taken a lot of time to like sit and be with herself and be quite introspective. It's a cancer thing. We shall have cancer. But I'm done gatekeeping this quote from her. We can share this one. The most important thing she's ever said to me was the most glamorous thing you can do is have a real life. And I've taken that quote and I've internalized it, but I think what makes her so cool and what makes her visuals and ethos and everything so strong is, it's real for her. All of this is real. None of this is a fantasy. Like, even if she's romanticizing or being dramatic with certain things or like referencing things that aren't hers or creating perspectives from other people, like, at the end of the day, her life is her real life. And like, she's going to create art through it. And so there's this high level glamour that comes from just like, I'm me and I'm a girl and yes, I am like Lana Del Rey. But like, I like boys and love and I want to be in love and like, who doesn't want that? And I think really romanticizes where she came from. Yeah. The lifestyle she came from, the trailer park, and the cigarettes and the not beauty, but finding the beauty in what is like that Midwest life. How do you make an ugly thing beautiful? Yes. And she does that so, so, so well where it's like, you could say, okay, here's a leaf, like, right about it. And she would make the most heart-wrenching quote about this leaf, right? Because ultimately, I think a lot of artists are artists and Lana is a poet. And first and foremost, she's always been a poet. No, that's so good. You really open. And also, I don't even think making ugly things beautiful, making simple things beautiful. Yes. You know, like, I don't know, like, Lana shooting a music video in a laundry mat, which just makes sense. And I don't know why or how, but it just, it would. Like, she, it is this romanticization and glamoring what we all have to do every day, this real life that you're describing. And not belittling those things or aspiring for more, but finding out how do I love those things that I have to do anyways. Yeah. And I think that that is a really, really beautiful thing. And again, talking about it's, it's like, counterintuitive to the typical narrative of, you know, what a pop star would be. She's not sitting in there like, okay, we have a songwriting session today, right? Like, we're gonna, we're gonna write sports car. Amazing song. But it's her poetry throughout her life that she's writing, recording little audio notes of, and like, you know, collecting it. It's raw, it's real. Like, a lot of her music is voice notes too. Yeah, that's super cool. It's just real. Another two little, like, interesting things I wanted to bring up. One, I had the conversation with my friend, and I thought it was so interesting where we were talking about vinyl, like how people purchase vinyl. And she was talking about how every single person I know has like multiple vinyls that they've never listened to. And how the reason we buy vinyl is not to physically consume music, it is art. Vinyl is not music, it is home decor. And I thought that was so interesting. And then she was talking about to you, and she's like, what's very interesting to me is that the movie business, entertainment business, never figured that out. They never figured out people stop buying DVDs and nobody buys DVDs anymore. People stop buying CDs and they started buying vinyl. Because vinyl became this thing I wanna put on my shelf. I have a little, you know, section of my house that shows off my vinyls. I have a collection, whatever. And starting to think about album covers, not as what does a cover of an album look like, but what is this home decor? What is it gonna look like in somebody's house? - Interesting. - I thought it was like a really interesting thought process that I had never like reflected on anyways. I don't know, I just thought it was super, super interesting. - I know a lot of people who have, you know, their vinyls up as art. And I think it's cool. For me, the only way I've taken that is like, I think it's beautiful to listen to your music. And like, I love listening to vinyl. But if there's ever something where I want it on display or I want to protect the integrity of it, I will buy two of each. - That's cool. - For example, not to bring it up again, but like the Lana Boob vinyl, right? I'm listening to Ocean Boulevard on my standard Ocean Boulevard vinyl. Boob vinyl never getting opened. - Yeah. - But I'm also not displaying it. So I think it's interesting. For me, it is art and I think vinyl packaging is the highest form of music art from a physical perspective, a tangible perspective. But yeah, that is interesting that your point, the movie business never did it. Is that what I'm just gonna release a poster? - They haven't figured that out. I mean, it's interesting. The movie found out how to monetize physical merchandise through action figures and costumes. Like you walk into a target and it's movies. The kid section of a target is movies. Just interesting because I think music also should have figured that out. You don't think that Taylor Swift could have an entire aisle of the girl's kid section of target. - Oh, she could. Easily. - We just gotta figure out these label deals. - Right, that's what I'm saying. It's interesting that music never figured that out too. It reverts whites. And an interesting thing of like how physical consumption is like impacting these things, which I think-- - I think we're seeing a big shift in D to C though. Like which is really interesting. - I think we will too. I mean, notoriously, merch has been so bad. But last thing I wanna touch on super quick is this last slide about visuals building identity. Because two artists that I think are super interesting to compare as like, like, specifically in the past year that they've had is Addison Ray versus Addison Beer. - Well. - Because I think that they are so, came from very similar places. You think like this internet kind of realm, like I feel like I'll populate on the internet relatively around the same time. - Okay. - And I would say that Addison Ray is a worse singer, but better at building a world. And Addison Beer is a better singer, but worse at building a world. - Okay. - And it's interesting to me that Addison had a bigger year. - Okay. But like, I just think that it's so, like, 'cause I, to this day, like, again, like I don't know, I think Madison is trying to figure it out and she has shifted so many things, like even just looking at these three pictures of Addison, like I see how they look, they connect. She wants, her references are Brittany, Charlie, and Lana. And she wants to be this like middle point of the Venn diagram between the thing. Like she is pop girl and she's kind of party, but also a bit more poetic, you know, like dipepsy vibes. I feel like Madison has struggled so hard to like figure out her lane. She makes incredible music, but she's not found, like, a story that has grasped people. Does that make sense? - I got it. I have a lot of thoughts. - Okay. - I'm gonna summarize it as She's a Pisces. - And I think that's interesting is that like, this is Madison's problem. - I just think, okay, my honest take, Addison wants it. Madison doesn't want it. - Yeah. - It comes down to that. - And not real. I think that's really, really, real valuable feedback. Or is I think Addison's willing to fail. - Yeah. - That's the interesting about her. Like people don't want to talk to her. I'm like, this is like her third attempt at putting out music. It worked now, but she has tried. She's had music videos that got shit on. She's leaked an EP that got shit on. Then she rigged more songs, 10 songs that weren't even on this EP. Like, she has tried so many times. And finally it started working. And which one I think is cool. I really admire anybody who is willing to fail in the public eye and take feedback and improve. Like again, talking about do a, remember people who's a shit on do for being a bad dancer? - Yeah. - And then she just like buckled down. And now she's like an incredible, but like I would put her in like the top echelon of performers. - She's amazing. - And that to me is one of the coolest. Like I love to see an artist do that. I think it's so cool. Like we have wrote somehow like to criticize things instead of like appreciating and encouraging people to improve. Like, oh you're wrong, you're bad. Instead of like, this is an opportunity for you to get better. - It's interesting that you say that because I don't think like, yes Addison did fail publicly many times. But I think as someone who's followed her career this whole time, maybe I just wasn't hating on it, but like I didn't observe people hating on her. I do know that when obsessed came out like. - People were hating on her. - But it's just like, I don't think it tarnished her trying. - People still hate on her. - Yes, but they don't care. - Like there's people who just cannot get on board to Addison Ray. I've had this conversation with many people who work in music. - Same and I'm like, I'm sorry. - You got to get it. - You got to get in that girl. It's coming. - It's coming. - Like you're gonna be so sorry. - You are. - Like how do you love Britney Spears and not love Addison Ray? How? - That's such a good question. Because, no, and that's absolutely like you're right. It doesn't make sense. It literally just not make sense. But I think Addison has a vision for where she wants to go, even if she's not there. I think Madison is struggling to find the vision. And that has been her issue, you know. Like visually, like even these three pictures, I showed you like this magazine cover to what she wore at a concert, to what she was wearing in the Make You Mine music video. - It's very different. - Could not be more different. - I will say I will defend her, make you mine, was a reference. - Was a reference. - Jennifer's body. - Okay, that's what I thought it was. 'Cause she looks very Megan Fox. - Yeah. But I think her early identity to what it is now, it's confusing, it's confused for sure. And I will argue, I think it's probably just really hard to be that sexy. And have to like think that story. - God gives us Thomas Battles to his strongest soldiers, and Madison Beer is in the trenches at that, you know. Like she's just perfected everything and, you know, it's gonna be a rough life. Anyways, I really drew talking to you. This is so much fun. - Yeah, me too, thank you so much. - And no, you should come back sometime. We gotta wait until there's like a good release that we both like really want to talk about. And I'll see y'all next week. Bye. - Bye.