The 3 things that Build or Break a New Artist (ft Natalie Jane)

Want to be the one who's always in the know about the game, the scores, the plays? Here's a tip. The Apple Sports app. Just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules. And when your team scores, it shows up right on your iPhone lock screen, making it easy to check in anytime. So rule the group chat and download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone. For decades, a shadowy organization called the Lemonati has kept lemon on top and lime in the shadows. Look around. Lemon-forward sodas. Even lemon-forward songs. We ran the tracks, slowed them down, reversed them, and squeezed out the truth. That's lemon propaganda right there. But now, 7-Up is fighting back with their new lime-lemon soda. Join the 7-Up rising. Flip the sip. I have a theory that there are three traits that define a great new artist. Number one is emotional intelligence. Whether that is the heart-wrenching ballads or euphoric dance tracks, how are you able to pull out those feelings of the listener? Number two is cultural awareness. Do you have your fingers on the pulse of people and how they are feeling? Studying media and culture to understand the problems and experiences of other people and how you speak to those things through your own music. Last is worldview. I'm a big fan of the worldview. I grew up in New Jersey and now I live there. live in los angeles i moved when i was 18 and it's not just representative of a physical of the physical places but it's also just representative of i don't know obviously relationships it's like i'm leaving this relationship i didn't want i'm leaving everything behind and i'm going headfirst into the unknown and it's super scary but it needs to be done no i i very much like empathize with that experience i'm from virginia um and i moved to california like the same as you and in pursuit of doing something so much different from the lifestyle that surrounded me growing up um and how that was not the life that i didn't want it that was the life i didn't want either um and it's interesting too i think as you age too like you start to see people who were once upon a time in the same place as you whether that's like you went to school together or you were friends you met whatever and how much your lives have diverged and and it sometimes is like also reaffirming to me that i'm like i like the path that i chose you know um i think that's the beauty of it of also like going home even yeah i think just like your biggest dreams are dreams because they're so scary to like take a step towards yeah if that makes sense like it's not easy to become who you want to be you really have to like work at it and like doing that work is the scary part yeah it's terrifying and it's like to pursue life as an artist is like almost crazy you know what i mean in a beautiful way like it is like you know you are have to have this belief in your own self-expression and that that is going to resonate with people and i think that's also like why those moments you're talking about like on stage or like performing are so reaffirming yeah as a person because you're like this is the life i want you know i think it's also performing it's not just about like this is so cool we're all here together it's also like i it's like i see you like i've been there don't worry it's okay yeah yeah yeah um no that's also like when i was a bit of a spoiler um listening to the album i picked up on this line in the song gone that says guess i never know what i want until it's gone given her the world i didn't want yeah guess i never know what's good until it's gone until you're giving her the world i didn't want yeah that song is the first time i cried while writing a song really yes um especially in like the verses it was actually about a hypothetical this whole song is about a hypothetical it's about like i'm with a person and i'm just thinking about the day we break up and i'm thinking about like what if i break up because like this isn't what i want and then i i'm like oh crap yeah like am i allowed to curse on this yeah okay i'm like we're fucked like i gave up the best thing in my life and now you're gone like i didn't know that and the craziest part about the song is it's all hypothetical and i got so sad over it and i'm like i can't even imagine the day the breakup actually comes i'll be like so distraught yeah but i mean again i think that's normal that's an interesting thought yeah um but like i love this idea of you know like giving her the world i didn't want yeah and like i have been there even in relationships myself where i feel like you know like it ended and you're confident in that decision whenever that was but like there's always this like remorse in this what if and the grass is always greener on the other side you know what i mean like no matter what decision you make in life i feel like you'll never know the correct answer and that's so scary yeah exactly like you're always wanting the other thing yeah you always want what you don't have yeah and i and i love that that's song and or that feeling you know what i mean of like just gone like not the sense that i really wanted it to begin with but now that it's gone how does that make me feel yeah and like the verse is like thought i'd want to be alone till the first night that you didn't show up thought i'd want to go kiss new lips but oh i miss the old ones yeah it's like it's gone and now i want it more i know and and it's human too i think like also like a very like humanizing song is what's cool about it but what i what i love about that song is like it's yes it's for the people who lost what they love and now they want it back but it's also like it made me love the person more that i was with oh because it's like i need to hold on to this like i need you wait a minute yeah wait a minute wait a minute girl hold on yeah that's so funny that's so funny yeah um in a much different sonic direction let's talk about fallen want to be the one who's always in the know about the game the scores the plays here's a tip the apple sports app just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules and when your team scores it shows up right on your iphone lock screen making it easy to check in anytime so rule the group chat and download apple sports for free on the app store or find it on your new iphone the lemonati has spent decades keeping lemon on top and lime in the shadows their lemon agenda has infiltrated everything even our music that hit song named after the color of lemons not a coincidence big lemon has been pulling strings in the industry for years think about it but now seven up is fighting back with their new lime lemon soda now lime comes first seven up flip the sip that was the song that i was like like in the car listen i was listening that song i was like oh yeah oh like you got me moving thank you that's the point so mission accomplished mission accomplished accomplished um okay here's the thing about me i get so hyper fixated like i'll buy a shirt wear it every day for a month and then never wear it again same thing like i'll rearrange my room like once a month and i feel like i'm the same with music and i get so hyper fixated on something and then i don't necessarily move on but like i want to hear something new and that's why i'm so hyper fixated on something and then i i think this project has like a whole bunch of different like we have dance songs we have ballads we have like fuck you songs we have i'm gonna lock myself in a room and cry songs yeah and i think me personally i want that's what i want to hear because i'm making music yes that i want think the fans will love but like i'm not gonna make music that i hate like i'm gonna make music that i love and what i love is to hyper fixate on something and i'm not gonna make music that i and move on to something else and then go back and like to be multi-faceted as human like we all we have different things we feel different ways yeah and i think it's like very difficult to sort of display every emotion within one's body or every idea for a song within one's mind by adhering to one specific style and one specific thing and i actually think that range was very satisfying to me you know what i mean and and what's cool about it too is like the the meaning of the song i think like the themes of it are very cohesive right it is you know it like sonically it captures this feeling of like dancing with tears in your eyes yeah you know what i mean but it's about but i can have fun while i'm being pissed yeah exactly exactly like and and also i think that's um beautiful because i think a lot of the times like at least me when i crave that idea of like you know wanting to go out or something it's because i want that release yeah you know what i mean it's like a big theme of this album is like escapism and like escaping the world you didn't want escaping like yourself and just like accepting the fact that you're feeling these emotions and like letting go at least for the duration of the song yeah so you can escape and then go back to reality totally um and that's i think exactly what you're saying like it was so fun to experience and like in my head i was like oh i can like i'm feeling myself at the club like with the song and the yeah exactly you know fall in for that stranger i saw all of them across the room but then they start kissing somebody else and i'm like oh come on me i'm right here one bro like come on you know what i mean like yeah and people are in my comments like babe he doesn't want you i'm like yeah i know that's the point of the song i know yeah exactly um but but that's really what really like i think what i found most satisfying about it thank you i love the that melody too because i remember i was in miami and i went to a pilates class i didn't have a car there because i was in miami i don't live in miami we uber to this pilates class we walk in i never signed up my bad i thought i did i didn't so my two friends did the pilates class i sat outside for an hour and then i thought of the melody for fallen and then on the uber back i took a video and i showed them and i'm not going to show you i look so horrific and gross but thank god i missed my pilates class because now fallen exists that's beautiful and i love when like the universe works like that oh so many like weird stories like that for this album really yeah like how you been the lead single was written in a hurricane and my mom was and we were in miami and the hurricane was coming and my mom was like calling me like probably 12 times in an hour and she was like you have to get out of the state and like freaking out i was like no mom it's okay and i'm like if she was just like a little more persuasive because she's super persuasive how you've been wouldn't exist see that and that's - Beautiful. - Yeah. - I would love to talk about how you've been. That's another one of the ones I wanted to talk about. about like um one I love like I like you've always had the sort of like dark electro pop fusion but this one felt like a little rock in there yeah which I really loved in the sort of like pre-chorus and like build up to the chorus there's a lot of dead space like it gets slow before it gets like big with that sort of you know like electric guitar and the rock like sort of influence I'm talking about and I think that is like such an underrated tactic like for artists of like like sometimes when you have a part of the song that has less in it it makes this the part after it that has more in it feel like bigger and I think that's what like really struck me about that song listening to the first time you know it's like driving that emotion it's also like so jarring because I feel like that chorus is so aggressive because that's just like how that's the emotion I was feeling yeah like in the moment I was like oh I'm like so angry and like miserable yeah and I just love I'm a firm believer in like the build and like then the relief of like the big part that's so important to me and that song just like I feel represented that perfect yeah perfect and and I love like even you know like I think of other pop songs that have done that really well like you know like a happier than ever or like a vampire by like Olivia Rodrigo you know what I mean like it's it is using that dead space yeah to make the payoff like juicier also I love dead space I love dead space I love dead space I love dead space I love dead space in songs because like there's nothing to distract you from the lyrics and you can just like think about what I just said rather than focusing on like oh that piano is cool or like that sound is cool yeah oh she just said whatever she said I don't know what do I say I mean I think there's like a there one there's like a beauty to like minimalism and simplicity exactly and what you're saying right it's like the more that's going on the more there is to pay attention to but when you want them like like just this line or like just the emotion that's so powerful and so emotional it's like the emotion in my voice for the second yeah like I want you to hold that for a minute yeah yeah and focus and I think that that is um something you've done a lot of your songs but like I really felt it with that one in a cool way um then talking about really like you know this idea that I discussed earlier about um like writing songs that I think would really encapsulate the feelings that other people have in like culture and in the world in a given moment is really what girls will be girls I think was like for this album um so first I'd love to ask like what does girls will be girls mean to you well we went into the girls will be girls session actually I wanted to write a song about me being so jealous of a girl and interesting there's this specific girl that I was like how she looks her career that's just like and I was like so hyper fixated on it yeah and then it kind of evolved because I was like girls will be girls and they will be jealous and then I'm like it kind of shifted and it was like every girl has this feeling probably yeah it's another girl and then it's like girl it's not just jealousy girls will be girls like girls go through so much that is unexplainable to I don't know I guess guys but it's just it's my most empowering song I think on this album and it's the first time I truly felt like wow this song really means something like I feel like my other music has meant something but this one feels like it has importance to it I mean I think I love that it explores this idea of girlhood in both the positive and negative yes right like in the beginning it's about generational trauma like literally it's I learned from my mother what she learned from her mother sit still look pretty just flow with the water right like that is this the pressure placed on women right the the girlhood in its in its ugly side but then as it transitions into the chorus you know we warm up a bit it's girls will be girls hold the weight of the world behind a painted smile saying oh i'm fine and girls will be there hold your hand when you can't get out of bed sometimes yeah like that's the beauty of girlhood right it's like we all know what each other goes through and therefore we will always be there for each other and like you know they say you bond like through struggle yeah like i feel like this song it just makes me want i don't know like hug my best friend because i'm thankful for her um that's like what verse two is about but uh the chorus girls will be girls hold the weight of the world behind a painted smile saying oh i'm fine there's i really was inspired by the barbie movie actually really yeah my homegirl gives her whole speech at the end and like everyone is like mesmerized in the theaters with their jaws on the floor and she's like you can't talk too much and you can't you can't do this and then there's so much pressure from everyone yelling at you there's so much pressure to be exactly what you need to be and you just have to like go with it and be okay with it and smile yeah and and if you get mad about it then you're wrong or you're you're you get mad you're like you're like bitchy or like if you're too nice then you're like trying too hard yeah yeah and that's also like what i love in verse two and you say you you've seen all the pain that he would ignore yeah it's like the importance of that female friendship is the empathy right like it's exactly what you described is something i will never feel and it's something i i try to be there with my girlfriends and my girls for you know what i mean but like that is like why female friendships are so important yeah is because like that's what it it is this ability to to feel the thing that exactly what you're describing yeah and i don't know i get a lot of like angry dudes in the comment they're like we struggle too i'm like no i i know but this song's not for you like it's okay totally totally that's like another weird thing about the internet is like everybody takes it like very like me me me and it's like hey like this this is a call song called girls will be girls if you're not a girl it's not for you and that's okay it's fine it's fine yeah um you can have your moment you can have your moment you can find another song it's not this one yeah no it's not this one's for the girls and and we'll be girls and um you know i even love just like the flipping on its head of like boys will be boys yeah like that was such a cool title thank you um i just think it's so funny because like boys will be boys isn't really in like a serious manner it's like boy boys will be boys and like i don't know never clean their toilet seat or something yeah it's easy to excuse ridiculous behavior yeah and the girls will be girls is like we're there for each other yeah we're like this yeah and um something i literally was like talking about this in an episode of i think two weeks ago was just like how much i think in general like female friendships are much deeper than male friendships are on average you know it's like the way they communicate with one another and um this directness and i also think that's where some of the emotional turmoil comes from you know like where where that goes up it can also go down you know what i mean and when with your friends with your girls but um that's what makes it beautiful yeah i um i don't hate men just she doesn't hate men like live reporting natalie jane does not hate men love you guys so much yeah me too okay i'm trying to get it out yeah no i get it like it's it's it's um i would also like really you know love to like something you do with your songs i think is very interesting again it's like using these stories to talk about experiences that i feel like is reflected in the stories that i feel like is really what i loved about ava was that like i don't know who hey ava is but everyone has had their own ava do you get what i'm saying they have their own ava yeah have their stacy they have their rebecca exactly no she's mom just kidding um but like you know like i think that was also like a really cool um expiration of of self but it's like kind of the point of it is not to be about you right like the point of it is to be like we all know in ava and what that feels to like be with that thing and you don't know if you should be mad at it if you don't like i don't know i thought that was really cool my favorite activity at shows is like asking is anyone's name ava i don't know really yeah i don't think it's gonna i was like really trying for my last tour to give all ava's like 10 off merch because so funny because like sorry i bashed you you gotta like reconcile somehow yeah don't be mad at me no that's so funny that's your next version of like role model sally you're bringing up different avas but you're yelling yeah yeah and you know what that's okay yeah that's okay okay um i think they like the attention too exactly like if there was a who the fuck is natalie i'd walk in a room be like who the fuck is natalie me boom kicks the door down yeah i like that that's a dramatic entrance that could be an entrance that could be an entrance we're writing that down we're writing that down for tour um speaking of tour um and and also just like world building and and like visuals as an artist in general um something you told me about that is so cool it's like the posters you did for this album yes this is the first time i was able to take a step back and really establish a sonic and a visual of what i wanted this album to represent because i feel like in the past i've just put out song song song and they didn't really necessarily connect with each other and i think this album there is the cohesive storyline there is the cohesive visual that i put so much time into and you were saying the posters what i did the the album cover art is me on a train yeah it signifies i'm leaving the suburbs the world i didn't want is behind me i'm going towards the unknown and in the background you see like these ads on the train that you normally see but each ad is for a different song of mine and like i don't know it just i put a lot of detail into them like in the vinyl packaging there is like a copy of all the ads really yeah that's cool so you can like i guess see them and like one of the one of them is ronda's red wine because in my song gone i'm like guess you never uh i said fuck what did i say i said oh fuck red wine that ain't gonna get me over you tonight so it's like ronda's red wine get over him tonight with all these cute little ads and then i made like a whole biography about who the fuck ronda is um i love that and there's just a lot of cute little details in them that no i love it like i even a clock that you put like founded in 2004 which is the year that you were born yes and like made in woodcliffe lake new jersey yeah and i love stuff like that it's it's um very like if you know you know and one of my very good friends um her name's kalisha she has this quote that i love it's like context is important but not everybody deserves it and one of the most beautiful things like that as as an artist is like that is meant for the fan who gets it right like that's meant for the one who's like and when you get it you're so excited you're like right whoa right and and and also that's what makes it exciting right is that there's 10 other people who didn't get it it's your way of communicating directly to that person and this subtle nod and they nod back with the understanding of it that i think is so beautiful um and i also think it was like i just love the puns that you did too you know like with the london's lipstick it's that's like london's lipstick attracts tall men named ben under no circumstances can you wear london's lipstick on a bridge it will fall down london's lipstick does not smudge on fish and chips i um i made sure all of the products that i'm like advertising are what's the thing where it's like ll and then like like london's lipstick yeah an alliteration yes that all of them are an alliteration and i was like i like london so then there's like a picture of london on actual yeah all the cute little details i drew out all of them in this in my sketchbook i don't know how to use like a computer i can barely like use my phone except for like tiktok and instagram so like i drew out everything i wanted and we gave it to um the artist design yeah artist that's so cool did and also you told me that you have done like your own like single covers and stuff in the past my cover uh i did the cover of crazy i'm good my first song ever love is the devil because like i was uploading my first song and i was like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god my first song ever to distro kid and i didn't know i was like oh shit i need cover art so i just went upstairs and took a picture of something that's cool though right like that's so cool yeah and that's such like a again like an artist thing to do right it's it's just like creation this like you created the song you also created the poster and they weren't even connected at the time but also that poster like the cover art is like makes sense for that song yeah and also the the physical vinyl is like clear it's like cd through. Oh, cool. And I just wanted that, like everything I feel represents something. And that represents like me just being so vulnerable and honest. And like, you can see like right through my thoughts, I'm telling you exactly what I'm thinking. And like, that's why the vinyl is like clear. Yeah. I love that. Oh, also, sorry. Um, because this is not coming out until like after I announced my album, the cover art and the title got leaked and I'm, I didn't do it. Wait, no, I know. Um, I was, the way I found out was because my good friend, Lauren, Lauren Spencer Smith, fan DM'd her that my, like, I don't know that my thingy got leaked and Lauren called me like five times, broke my do not disturb and like woke me up so early in the morning to tell me this. And I was like, you are such a good friend. That is real. Thank you. Shout out to Lauren Spencer Smith. Literally. And Sabrina for telling Lauren. Yeah. So, like, what did you do? Did you like think about changing it? Did you spiral? No, I like spams my label group chat. I'm like, what do we do? It's down. It's down. We're good. It's down. We're good. I think. Did you like, I mean, that's kind of terrifying as an artist too. Like you're part of like the whole like rollout strategy is this, you get to plan this moment. Yeah. The surprise. Did you feel like you had to like pivot because of that? I was just like really stressed for a good chunk of time until they told me that it's down. I think it was like 24 hours. I was like, okay, what am I going to do? We put so much time into this. Yeah. Whatever. But like, shout out, Lauren. Love you. Yeah. Seriously. Shout out. That's good friends right there. Yeah. Um, a question I was going to ask just out of curiosity, like, have you ever tried or like sketch something for a music video? Like when you're thinking visually, do you ever like start sketching it out? I sketch out a lot for merch and like stage design. Oh, cool. Um, a big thing for me, this, an upcoming tour is going to be the first time I like tour with a guitarist. I've only used a guitar for a couple of festivals here and there, but I've only used drums and a lot of lighting, especially in like my European shows. Um, they just like, they like to have fun. I feel like your visuals are very light. Like you love the blues and the reds and this deep saturation. It's really cool. And I just felt like for me personally, the visual aspect of the rest of the stage was at the time, I guess, more important to me than having a guitarist on the road. But now I'm excited to have one with me. Yeah, no, that'll be so fun. Especially for some of the songs on this album. Again, like they're the guitar be there. Yeah, for sure. But, um, no, I'll sketch out the stage design. I'll sketch out. I work so closely with my, uh, merch designer for all the merch, because one thing about me, I've always wanted to have a clothing line. I thought that was really, yeah. And I, like, wanted to, I wanted to do that whole thing, but there's only so much I can do right now. Um, so it's just kind of cool. Cause it's like, merch is like an excuse to have a clothing line almost with limited drops. Like that's so cool. So I love taking advantage of that. And it's beautiful that it gets to be like connected back to this thing that is yours, you know, like as, as symbolic of the song. And also, um, I feel like merch in general for music, like what's beautiful, about it is like, you're kind of like buying a memory, you know, like I, like, even when I wear like sweatpants, I got a Coachella or something. Right. It's like, I noticed that so much. Like if I am at a concert, I will buy merch. I will not buy concert merch online, but like I'm there. I'm here right now. I need this right now. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's what it is. It's this association with like the emotional experience created that evening. Yeah. Um, for next year but like the we started honestly back in February for the hoodie I wear in the how you been music video we're gonna start selling that when we announce the album and like I've been like wearing that throughout the past few months and I just think that's like another cute little thing when they see that on the website they're gonna be like no those are my favorite merch things like that like when it's tied to like some sort of piece of of like the artists roll out themselves or also like random one of my random favorite pieces of merch that I got from an artist was um for this recent Billie Eilish album they sold like a lunchbox like an actual tin lunchbox with like a thermos in it and I was like you know what I mean like it was just for this specific album this was a good song and this thing like it was just perfect and fun and whimsical um and it's cool because it ties back to the music exactly but like it all tied so so the red sweatshirt that I'm talking about yeah there's a lyric in the last single on the album heart wrencher no it's not it's a heart wrencher but it's called black and white um I say red like the sweatshirt in his car I wore on the night that we watched the stars so like that is the red sweatshirt yeah you've been video and it's in the poster yes like I don't know she's I see the webs I see the mental connections coming together it was just so fun because we had time to plan and it was like the longest I went between the sick to my stomach ep and how you've been coming out that's the longest amount of time I've been on the album I took away I took a step back from like dropping music yeah and I was like let me use my brain and like really think to my full capacity totally and I think that's also like what is beautiful and fun about the doing the album right it is this cohesion of it is is there's a different process to being like you know I'm gonna have a few songs I like and then package them together versus like this is one story to me yeah but there are also like last minute changes that come up like the song I Butterfly that was my favorite song on the album really yes so that wasn't supposed to be on it we added that the day I switched out with another song the day before the album was it is my favorite song on the album really I think that was a good move thank you yeah I swear to god that was like I was good literally like that was one of my questions I was gonna ask about the song I yeah it's my favorite and because I also think it's like you're really good at transitions and that song is when you use transitions the most yeah that one is like you think you're in like this jazzy bluesy dark tavern world like a smoke across the bar and a red velvet couch yes yeah you get it i get it you get it and then it's a dance song yeah exactly exactly surprise but again that's what's fun and that's also the use of dead space we're talking about earlier like like it makes the like you're like whoa wait a minute yeah i was honestly for that one i was really inspired by hit me hard and soft because like that whole album it's like unex like every next sentence was everything was just so unexpected and like right out of not out of nowhere but like i've never heard anything like that before and i was like i want to try that it's flawless it's it's flawless like my favorite i think i think it's like i'm for sure top five pop albums of all time for me um but a question i always like to end the show with is if you wanted the listeners to listen to one song off this album when it comes out like that you really like i really want you to sit with this one and think about it what is that song and why anyone but myself okay the first track on the album it that song is essentially like so much self-doubt piling up and up and up and you get to the chorus and you're like fuck i just want to be anyone but myself and you realize that thought yeah and then there's this big drop and that's the moment where you like you've acknowledged your feelings and in this moment you can escape yourself and you can like be anyone else and like you just like close your eyes and listen to it and like it feels it really embodies in my opinion like escapism and you just feel like you leave this universe for like half a sec yeah and i think it's also like beautifully symbolic of like um leaving the world you didn't want and going to the world that you do want yeah and i think with that song it's not just about me and like my personal like struggles i feel like with social media all day every day i see other people all posting the highlights of their life yeah and like perception is reality and i see this stunning girl living like her best dream but like she is probably jealous of someone else too like we're all comparing ourselves to everyone and like i think that is why it's like my favorites one of my favorites on this album because like i'm accepting the fact that this is how i feel it's probably never going to change and i'm accepting that and that's beautiful and again that's raw and real like that that's what people like from music it's it's beautiful and what a great way to start the album oh thanks i like that it's like she's a ballad but then she's also like that trancy freaking i don't know euphoric yeah kind of sound totally well y'all the world i didn't want is available for pre-save at the link in the description y'all know where to find it yeah support our girl natalie jane and it was seriously such a pleasure to have you like you the way you think about music is so fascinating to me i loved want to be the one who's always in the know about the game the scores the plays here's a tip the apple sports app just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules and when your team scores it shows up right on your iphone lock screen making it easy to check in anytime so rule the group chat and download apple sports for free on the app store or find it on your new iphone coca-cola for the big for the small the short and the tall peacemakers risk takers for the optimists pessimists for long distance love for introverts and extroverts the thinkers and the doers for old friends and new coca-cola for everyone pick up some coca-cola at a store near you talking with you