(upbeat music) - Hey, it's time for another official of Terry's Bugging Podcast. Terry Plutos here, I'm your host, David Campbell. We're back after a week off, and you've shaken whatever bug you had a couple of weeks ago, Terry, which is great to hear. How you feeling? - Yes, I am doing well. So I'm sitting here to say, I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to coaching searches, and I'm working on that. - You had a few days off last week, you came right back in the maelstrom of coaching changes around the NFL. - Right. - Full throws, as they say. - I mean, David, I'm very, very serious. I've had this for decades. When you're covering coaching searches or even managers, for example, the Guardian's on a higher Terry Francona easy. You can look at his record, all that stuff. Okay, they want a higher Stephen vote to replace Terry Francona. Well, he was a pretty good defensive catcher, and he did spend a year as a bullpen coach in Seattle, and his wife's a really good softball coach, and this is the guy that's gonna take Terry Francona's place. - And he's been a two-time manager of the year. - Yeah. (laughs) - So what's the football equivalent of that, right? - Yeah. - I mean, the Guardian's talked about, they talked to like 150 people, I think, about Stephen vote. - Right. - Before they hired him. Didn't they say that when at the press conference, did they have that. - Yeah, some crazy thing. - And he said he was interviewed by a dozen people there, or whatever, but nonetheless, what, I mean, I guess he could sell himself. He could say that, and there's that's part of the job. But tangibly, it isn't as if he was even like a big time hitting coach or a big time pitching coach. I'm not knock, I'm just saying this, and it shows. All right, and then the other two things we go to, and I'm opening with this is because, all right, Mike, before Mike Tomman was fired, Dave Campbell, he was, I mean, fire, excuse me, before he was hired by Pittsburgh, he was what? - His job? - Yeah. - Was he with, boy, I don't even remember, it's been 20 years, right? - That's right. - Well, I do know that they was, I do know that they interviewed him when they hired Bill Cower. - Right. - That's where they first came across him, but I don't remember where he was before he went to Pittsburgh now. - You know, I'm not sure that's correct, because he was 34 years old when he was hired. And he was a defensive coordinator for how many years in Minnesota? - Zero. - One. - I was close. And the year before, and before prior to that, he was defensive backs coach for five years with Tampa Bay. So that's it, and then there's some college stuff, including a stop at VMI I may add. The cradle of coaches. Now, where I'm going with this is, you look at that, or you look at Stephen Vult, and who knew? - How about John Harbaugh? What did he do before he was hired? - I kind of put you in this stuff. - Yeah, I mean, yeah. - He was in college for a while, right? - Yeah. - And that stopped several years special team's coach, Philadelphia. So he got a special team's coach. He got a one time, one year defensive coordinator, and you got those two guys who were the pre-eminent, other than Andy Reed. By the way, what was Andy Reed before he was hired by Philadelphia? - Yo, he's an offensive coordinator. - Oh, he wishes. - What was he telling me? - Quarterback coach in Green Bay. - So he wasn't a top. - He was part of the Mike Holmgren tree. - Right, but the point is, there's your top three, okay? I want anybody to say, I look at those resumes and say, oh yeah, those guys are gonna be coaching for decades and this, as opposed to I just say, some of the people that get hired right now, Kevin Stefanski get hired by Atlanta. You know, there's stuff to look at. The reason I'm doing this is because those of us in the media, some of us like really researched this and they talked to all these people who know them, and that's all you can really do, but you don't really know what he's going to do. - Well, they don't either. - Yeah. - That's the point, they don't. You hope, you hope and you don't. All right, I'm not done yet. - You ready? - I'm ready. - I'll just do this. I'm not gonna put you on the spot for any of this. - I'll just keep getting things wrong. - No, that's okay. No, I'm doing that because actually, you follow this stuff and I wouldn't have known this that I'd not been researching this for my newsletter and that. Okay. Greg Yudinski, 30 years old, played football at Towson and Davidson. This, another, you know, they turn out a lot of coaches. Dave's has been a good basketball school. Okay, his first job out of school was, he was a grad assistant, a Baylor, for a little while there before he found a place to live, he slept in his car at Walmart. That's a graduate assistant. Matt Rule was the coach there. Matt Rule liked him. And a year later in 2020, Matt Warb became the head coach at Carolina. He takes Yudinski with him and Dizinski, for two years there has a title of quote, coaching assistant, unquote, which means it kind of do whatever they tell you to do. In 2022, he goes to Minnesota as assistant to the head coach, which was a entry level job, by the way that Kevin's Defansky had Minnesota for Brad Childress many a moon ago when he was young. 2023, he's still in Minnesota. He is assistant quarterbacks coach. 2024, he gets the title of assistant quarterbacks coach and assistant offensive coordinator. And in 2025, he's hired in Jacksonville as the offensive coordinator, but he doesn't cover call plays. Now, clearly he impressed a lot of people along the way to get these jobs, 'cause there are tons of coaches who want these entry level jobs. They'll sleep in Walmart themselves if it would get him a job. They'll work in a toy department, stocking at night if that would get them a job, whatever it would take. Oh, yeah, I mean, we've heard Eric Mangini talk about having to get food for the coaches when he wrote the rounds, when he was a, like a slow level entry coach. Well, maybe I'm not putting this down, but I'm just saying, you look at that and tell me at the age of 30, turn 30 on January 12th, would you think that this is gonna be a finals for the brown job and he is. He's in the final four, whatever. No, maybe he is the next Sean McVey, or maybe not, I don't know. But I'm just saying, would I go to write about it? I don't know what to really say about these people. - Well, we haven't had a money ball reference in a while on a podcast area, but you know the scene where Brad Pitt's talking to the head scout and he says to him, you walk around here and you act like you know what the future is gonna bring these prospects and the fact is you don't. Like, you don't know. Some of them are gonna bust and some of them are gonna be great. And we see the same thing with coaches. Like, you can interview great, you can have a great resume, but there's a difference between being a coordinator or a quarterbacks coach and being a head coach. It's a totally different job. And you just, you can never know. - Now the flip side, we can evaluate. All right, let's go to Sean McDermott. What would you say about him? - I think that, and we've talked about this, a lot of times coaches are better the second time around. I hear us, our colleague did a post last week looking at some coaches including Jim Schwartz, who had, you know, because it's relevant to him, how they do the second time around. - So, all right, so we go to, we go to, we go to then to Sean McDermott. And your thoughts are, I would like to see what he does the second time around, but I mean, he had a lot of advantages in Buffalo, he had a great quarterback. He had patients from ownership. And he had some chances in the playoffs that they could not pull off. I don't know what he did the second time, I don't know. - I will say this, first of all, he went to a franchise that hadn't been in the playoffs for a million years. He went to a franchise where the starting quarterback was, who was a Dave Campbell that first year? - Rob Taylor? - Rob Taylor? - No, Ty Rod Taylor. - Yeah, I got one right. - Absolutely bet, yeah. And he somehow guessed them into the playoffs. So, the next year, they draft Josh Allen. But if you look at his stats from that year, this is the fact, I believe McDermott's only losing season. Allen, like, completed 52% of his passes and the stats are a mess, the team will ask. It was a struggle. So he didn't go in where there was a quarterback in place. He had a fine one. And that's what, see, this is some of the stuff I could look at in there. First of all, I see somehow he drinks Ty Rod Taylor into the playoffs because Ty Rod Taylor doesn't get the playoffs on his own. We've seen him elsewhere. He's a very nice backup quarterback. And then, they work with Allen. And Allen was not considered a finished product out of Wyoming. In fact, as we are speaking, I have my University of Wyoming had on because it's kind of my adopted collar thing ever since my friend Larry Shiette became the head coach basketball coach there many moons ago. And he also has Larry next junior. So I always thought, and I like Wyoming as a state. So I thought, well, why not? But so I followed Allen, actually, because of that. And Allen had no division one offers out of high school. He went to a Juco in California, then he was recruited to go to Wyoming, which was his only division one offer and played there. Now, you know, he's more of a physical specimen, all that. But there were a lot of concerns about his ability to become an accurate passer. And he developed that in Buffalo. And meantime, retirement won a lot of games. To be exact, I mean, he's the guy that you look at his record and in the last seven years, Kansas City has the best record overall in the last seven years. Counting-- this is E from ESPN, counting playoffs, Kansas City. Then the team that's won a second most games is Buffalo. Number three is Philly and number four is the Rams. Now, the argument is only Buffalo failed to win the Super Bowl in that seven year span. And McDermott would say, that's correct. But we got knocked out by Patrick Bowling's four times in the playoffs. I mean, that's tough. And the last three playoffs-- it's agonizing. They lost by three points in each of the last three playoffs games. And I know you're still mad at about one of those losses to Kansas City. Yeah, I mean, when they had to lead in the last 20 seconds or whatever it was, and they gave up that-- I forgot. Yeah, that was bad. It was bad. You know, coaches make mistakes. And you hope they learn from it. Yeah, I mean, you're right, Terry. They could do a lot worse than him. My argument would be, it isn't like he walked in to a set situation. And he walked in where there was no quarterback. And they had to develop a quarterback. And you know, he brought-- as I would say, he brought legitimacy and watchability. I mean, to Bill's mafia. Now, at the end, you become so close, then you get into Marty Schachtman's number land. You know, that you can't-- now, we go back and look. Dave Campbell, the last Browns coach, back to back winning seasons, not a trick question. Marty Schachtman, I remember. Yeah, of course. Yeah. If we'd be building Marty's statues, if he weren't-- I mean, it's incredible about that. And this guy, you know, this popped out 10 wins seasons and 11 wins seasons and did it in Buffalo. So see that, you could really begin to analyze that. How did he come in? What did he have to work with? What was a franchise like before? What led to him being fired? How is he now? Then you have real data from people who worked with him as a head coach. How did he handle this and that? But these other guys, it's just so hard. That doesn't mean you must hire somebody with experience, because now I'll give you a Dan Gilbert one. This is when Gilbert hired Mike Brown as the head coach of the calves first time. And so I went up to Gilbert afterwards. It was just he and I talking. I said, Dan, this guy has-- he's don't experience his head coach, not in college or anywhere. And he said, well, you know what it is about experience. I said, well, what? He goes, actually, that's it. I say, he has experience doing what? Being mediocre or being good? Or what? He said, just because you have experience, in other words, he's kind of saying experience is neutral. And that is based on exactly what you did with the experience. So simply-- and there is a thing in the NBA, by the way, certain coaches that kind of bounce from team to team. And they just sort of kind of maybe win it, just enough games to once or while I make the playoffs or be-- they were called 401K coaches. And no worries, they're that kind of coach. Yeah, love that. They find just a way to keep their job and get fired in this. So-- and I think that would be-- probably I should have told Dan that one. He'd steal it and like it, because I got it from an older GM long time ago. So-- but that's why when I look at this, we could look-- now, let's talk about Schwartz. All right, let me-- why don't we do a reset here? Let me run through all the candidates, based on Mary K's reporting, and then we can kind of get into Schwartz and wherever else you want to go. All right, so the Browns are having their second slate of interviews this week. Jim Schwartz has had a second interview. They've also got interviews scheduled this week with Todd Munkin, former Ravens offensive coordinator. Dolphins coach Mike McDaniel, which will be on Wednesday. You mentioned Grant Yudinsky, possibly also Wednesday. And it looks like Jesse Minter is going to be coming in this week. And according to Mary K, that's the first time they'll be meeting him in person. And they've also been interested in Ram's past game coordinator Nate Schillhouse. But they have to wait until next week to talk to him after the NFC championship game, which the Ram's are playing in. So that's it, right? That's everybody. Before I go back. But so that's why you took Schillhouse-- And McDermott potentially, right? Yeah, I've heard-- I've not heard they're interested in it. I was trying to make some calls today, by the way. I'm not sure they are. Or they don't think they can get them or something. Anyway, Schillhouse Yudinsky, Minter to me, are in the same bag of really who knows. I mean, who knows? They might be good. They might not. I have a hard time analyzing that. And maybe-- and now, I know they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to have these people analyzed. And then the other two, at least have a track record, McDaniel and Schwartz, I'll just say, I'm not a McDaniel guy. What do you think of McDaniel? I don't think that he necessarily fits what the Browns need right now. And I just get a weird-- you watch Mike Rabel's team play in New England, and you know what it's like to be in that locker room every day. Like it's kind of an honest, outwardly facing place to play. And I don't get that same sense with Mike McDaniel's Dolphins locker room when I watch them. Like it was a lot of stuff with two of this year, where there was a little bit of infighting. And I just-- I didn't get the sense that it was the same vibe as you want-- or you want to see in a winning team like New England. I'm not just comparing those two. Those are just-- I was watching New England a lot this season because of Rabel. Yeah, I mean, but it doesn't feel the same to me. But if you even go to, I'd say, Tom one has presence. Harball had presence. I'm not saying there. Kevin, not so much. But Kevin was successful at different times. But McBride, McDaniel's to me, is like a locker room and let him, you know, X and O. But I would not see him. That so much comes at the head coaching job now of, you know, he is the face of your franchise along with your quarterback. And he is the, you know, and also guys at times are looking for more than just X's and O's. And maybe they're looking to have an offensive coordinator. That could be it, too. I don't know. That's true. So not to put words in your mouth, Terry, but it seems like you're kind of-- you'd like to see them hire Schwartz or McDermott because of the experience in the proven track record. Is that where you're at with this awesome? I mean, I like McDermott's resume. Now maybe there's something like the last year, he kind of lost it in some way. I don't know. And that's their job to find out. But at least you've got that. Now Schwartz is interesting because he was, his last year coaching, fifth year in it. I think his record was 29 and 53. I forgot to write it down. There, he took over a team, was O16. So you talk about Steven the bottom. You couldn't be any lower. In a place where the Lions had been, they were even worse than the Browns, till of recent vintage when you looked at the last several decades. And he got them up to 10 and 6 at one point. The last year, he was 7 and 9. But the tough thing there was, he started at year 6 and 3. And then lost, I think, 6 is his last 7. He did a mass effort during that time, a young mass effort. So he had a quarterback. But it's hard for me to stick a-- what he did in Detroit 13 years ago to say that's exactly who this man is today. Where you could look at Stefanski, you could look at Harbaugh, you could look at Tom, all those-- this is real recent stuff. So I don't know what to make of the Detroit thing, other than he's had some experience. And-- but we know he's a heck of defensive coordinator. Yeah, and his players play for him. And there's accountability. I mean, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, Terry. Right, McDermott, and Jim Schwartz, they have a lot going for them in different ways. But I think they could do a lot worse than either of those guys. And then you've got to turn around the Buffalo situation as you described it. Sounds very similar to what the Browns have right now when McDermott got the Buffalo right. Yeah, McDermott came in, correct. Right, yeah. And he made them relevant and watchable. And he embraced the Buffalo community. He loved him and I've stayed New York in terms of that. I mean, he was about kind of the right stuff there. And then the difficult thing is, you know, I think in the end, Jimmy Hasle makes the call. Of course, I remember Joe Banner telling me this one. He says, in the end, the head coach-- sometimes a GM will let you do it. I'm sorry, sometimes the coach will-- the owner will let the GM pick the coach. There we go, line him up. But often, the owner is the one who steps in at the last minute and makes the call. Well, I because he owns the team. And like the Browns, when they brought in Hugh Jackson as 16, McDermott was a finalist for that job. And then Jimmy like Hugh Jackson better. And then in 2019, Jimmy let John Dorsey make the pick, which turned out to be Freddie Kitchens. The very deep-edistic group was pushing Stofanski. And so then, when you're late, it happened in '20. So sometimes Jimmy kind of lests the GMs or the foreign office do it, and sometimes he does it himself. And that'd be an interesting dynamic, too, who, in the end, who does he do that? And Jimmy might decide, I want the next young hot coach, whoever that may be. And so that could end up being Yudinski or Mentor or one of these guys. I don't know. Going back to the Schwartz-McDermott, kind of not a debate, but comparison-- yeah, I was just looking at the final four teams in the playoffs, right? OK. A lot of people are like, oh, you've got to have a good young offensive mind. And so two of the coaches are defensive oriented. And two of the head coaches are offense, right? So you can go about it different ways, right? Seahawks, Mike McDonald, has a defensive background. And the Patriots, Mike Frabel, defensive background. Mike Frabel, a Walsh Jesuit grad in former Ohio State of Buckeye. And then now the Rams McVey offense. And the Broncos Sean Payton offense. So you can then, if you look at that, you can get there either way, as long as it's-- Right. The culture is right. And the product is watchable, right? Yeah, Vrabel, Hayton, extensive experience, McVey, extensive experience. I remember when I was in-- now, here we go. I was in Baltimore a few years ago. And I'm talking to a couple of my friends high up with the Ravens. And McDonald's name came up. He was a defensive coordinator then. And they're raven to me. This guy is going to be a good head coach. They really believed it. And thought so. And I know-- I talked to actually one of the person with the Browns a couple of years ago, same thing I heard. And it turned out, it was at the right. Yeah, I mean, he went from there to Michigan to help Jim Harba, Beto High State, and then he went back to the NFL. Yeah. So it's worked out. Yeah, looking to the coaches are McDonald and McVey. They're in the final four. So maybe McDonald and McVey are-- Yeah, that Irishness. The Irish Campbell clan came up. That's right. You got to put the Irish guy in. All right, so at the end, we've talked for 14 hours, and we've really decided nothing. Well, I think what you're saying is that you would like to see the Browns pick McDermott or Jim Schwartz because of their proven track record. And the other guys would be taking a chance. Can I summarize that, right? Yeah, that's my thought. But what about you? It doesn't even work out. It's just a chance. I'm kind of there with you, to be honest. It's just-- I don't feel like I have a handle. We're not in the interviews. We don't talk to people who've worked with these guys. We're basically just-- we're outside looking in here. And I don't want to pick one of these guys because I don't feel like I don't interview these people. I don't have their resumes. I don't talk to their background. I'm not going to pick on him, but I went through in depth Yudinski's resume. What is that that qualifies you to be a head coach? Now, I could say this. It's a different situation. But at the age of 24, it's in turn 25, I was taken out of Savannah, Georgia, as a minor league baseball writer. For one year, I didn't even do the full season. I came in after the season started. And one year at AA, and hired by a guy named Bill Tanton with a Baltimore evening sun, they had two of the morning sun evening sun. The morning sun was the big paper evening sun. He needed somebody young and cheap, as he was made very clear to a person who gave him my name. And I replaced Dan Shaughnessy, by the way, he's in the baseball Hall of Fame, because he had hired him when he was young and cheap, and Dan got a higher job. And he went with me, which I'm just wondering. I mean, I know in Baltimore, the thing is like, Tanton hired another kid. I remember this older writer telling me that. He goes, yeah, he nailed it with Shaughnessy, but then he mentioned some guy before that it wasn't very good. He goes, so we'll see how it goes with you. And I'm like, oh, OK. So I was beneficiary of probably a Udinsky type resume that still, they gave me a job in the big week. So what am I to say? Well, and the other thing, Terry, like a lot of times, they have these guys in, because they want to meet them in talk football. And maybe they're not looking at him as a head coach. But you know what? Tell us about what it's like to go against Sean McDermott's defense, like that's some of the things they might get into, where you're asking about other people. And so we never know what they're going to be talking about. It's interesting, though, the same thing. All these teams, the same guy set a flip from team to team interview to interview. You don't see too many people like Munkins or one that came out of nowhere, by the way. I haven't seen them interviewed anywhere else. Any thoughts on him? Just that he's been around forever. And I think he's seen it all. And I think he's a great offensive mind. But it didn't work with Lamar Jackson this season. And so what does that mean when you try and take that and apply it to the Brown situation with some young quarterbacks? I don't know the answer to that. I don't know either. I mean, my guess is he's probably a pretty good offensive coordinator overall. By the way, I got to meet me. All he does is pass, pass, pass. You know, because he got that. So I looked it up. The Ravens are like third or fourth in rushing attempts. Derek Henry was, I think, fourth or third again, the same thing in rushing attempts individually for a team. No, they just didn't. It wasn't like the Browns who let the league in passing attempts in 24. It wasn't like that at all. But we'll see. I find it odd though that he's on the second round. He must have interviewed well for the first round, or they get a pair of them with shorts. I don't know. Yeah, it could turn out that way. I mean, that would be a very intriguing match. Yeah, well, you got it. If you want experience, that's experience. So they go there. All right. So you want me to run through the coaching hiring so far. And then we can talk about the openings that are still there. I see the giants of higher John Harbaugh. Falcons got Kevin Stofansky. The dolphins of higher Jeff Halfley, who has some Ohio connections. And the Titans have hired Robert Salah. So that just happened today. We're taping this late on Tuesday afternoon. So that leaves the bills. Ravens Steelers, Browns Raiders Cardinals, as the six. If I have, where would you put the Browns in that thing? So I would group those kind of close to the way. I guess I just listed them. I think the bills, Ravens and Steelers are probably the top three group of three. And then Browns Raiders Cardinals would be in the bottom three for various reasons. How you have it? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, why? Well, first of all, Buffalo-- I'm sorry, you can take that job. You better be in the Super Bowl in two years. That's the expectation there. Ravens, you better get back into playoffs and win a lot of games. You got one more. The Steelers are the Steelers. Haven't helped you if you have a losing season. That would be it. But they are in that frustrating area. They have one playoff game since 2017, I believe. But they also believe in stability. And if you take that job, you could be there for 15 years. Yeah, if you end up being pretty good. Then you go to Arizona. Caligra Murray, I guess, they're tired of him, all that. They've had problems there. The Raiders, they tried Pete Carroll for what, a year, right? That didn't work. They got the number one pick. You got Mendoza if you take that job. And the Browns, you're drafting six. You probably won't get a quarterback. At least, there's somebody that emerges later on the process. And then, I mean, I've been hearing from fans. I mean, these, I think they got three picks in the first 39. How about two offensive linemen in there? Something like that. And a board receiver? Yeah, or draft. Take that sixth and move it down to 12. And pick up a fourth pick and go between 12 and 29, whatever it is. Basically, I kind of do what they did last year. Maximize that. And yeah, receivers and offensive linemen. And whether you end up going what you do, or you bring in another veteran or something, I don't know. All right, do we do have a few emails from listeners? Okay. Go ahead on through those real quick. Sure. All right. This first one is from Terry Ramey. Terry lives in Burlington, North Carolina. He says, "Hey, Dave and Terry, news just broke of the Bill's firing, Sean McDermott, all my." To me, he is the top coaching hire that Browns could get. He understands the Midwest vibe and the AFC. He would be perfect for Cleveland. I sure hope the Browns grab him up if he is interested. Schwartz would probably stay if you get a veteran coach like McDermott. Can you imagine what we could do with him and offense and Schwartz on defense? What do you think? Could it work? And I think we already talked a little bit about that, Terry. Yeah, right. He's a defensive guy, too. So they've run through some bunch of offensive coordinators there. Brian Dable, although Dable became a head coach, but Ken Dorsey, Joe Brady, and there's somebody before Dable, I forgot who it was, Buffalo had, because he would need to find a good offensive coordinator. But I just, you know, if they hired him, I would feel pretty good that at least this thing is going to be run the right way. And you've been writing a lot this fall and winter about being watch a watchable product. I've been on this thing for years. That's what they would have, right? It's important. Yes. And if it's not, then you really look at front office and everything else and say, well, look, this guy, you know, cranked out seven consecutive 10 win seasons or whatever it was. I think that's correct. And so it ain't him. All right. Here's one from Dennis. He says, hello, there's an old three stooge's scene, stooge. I quit, boss, you can't quit, you're fired. Kevin's to Fansky's point of view is this, I never wanted Watson, a gunslinger that doesn't fit my offensive philosophy, but I went up, but I went along as a team player. Watson was predictably suspended most of his first season. And then his tough guy ego got him in trouble and he got injured in year two, the third year, the Achilles tear, looking ahead, the Browns are stuck with Watson in his massive salary. It's time to leave this loony bin. I proved myself, there are greener pastures where I can do things the right way. That's all from Kevin's to Fansky's point of view. Well, you've got to run it out and Haslam and Barry have their messed a clean up, spin it for the fans and hope for the best. Maybe a new coach will save us. Thanks for that, Dennis. Yeah. We should come into the last year of Watson. That's one advantage. You can sell that. And I wrote the account on the other day, you know, Kevin's new job and Watson exhaustion. And that's what it was. I mean, you go back and think about how many guys got fired because of Watson and or the Watson move. I mean, 2023, Kevin is coach of the year. They win games, they played five quarterbacks, they win games with four different ones. They go 11 and six. They finished 10th in the NFL and scoring and they fired the offensive coordinator like half the staff. That's insane. Why, because we got to get something in here to fix Watson. Well, then you got Ken Dorsey and then that was the year where of course Watson was terrible to start. He gets hurt. You got James once and you lead the league in one category. Well, two, you lead the league in fewest points score and most passes throwing. And that's when it started to fall apart. It really did. And that's where you became totally in watchable the last two years. All right. This next one is from Steve Mulvihill and I mean, sorry, Steve Shane Mulvihill from Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Sorry about that. Shane. Several more jobs have come open since the Browns fired Kevin's to Fansky, including Baltimore and Pittsburgh. I think the Browns need to come to terms with the fact they have a bottom third job of the openings available. Yeah. And they're unlikely to land one of the most desirable candidates. Yes, we were just talking about that Shane Gray point as are the Browns going to outthink themselves and bypass the most logical candidate for them and Jim Schwartz. This is experienced and well respected by the players and is ready to step into the head coach role for the second time in his career. With Schwartz taking an interview in Baltimore, I'm worried the Browns will wait too long to make a higher and be left with a third tier candidate when it's all said and done. Thanks for the great work you do and go Browns again, that's from Shane Mulvihill in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Thanks for that Shane. I don't see the Ravens hiring Schwartz, but I guess you never know. It was the only place these interview for the head coaching job. My one concern which Schwartz would be and I have no answer on this at all, but you know, he did miss before he came to Cleveland three years ago, two years for health concerns, his thyroid and that. So I would want to make sure that he's really good physically because even though the coordinator job is demanding is not anything, there's nothing quite in the NFL like being a head coach or what it takes out of you emotionally and physically. So that would be my one concern, but otherwise, I mean, I think, I think Jim can do it. All right. And you know, if you have any thoughts on the coaching search or people you'd like to see considered, hit us out. I'll ask you this. This thing has hardly come up here. I hadn't come up here at all and all right, I think he's interviewing in Pittsburgh, Mike McCarty. Yeah, I don't know, I'm just like why. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, his record is pretty good. It really is. It is. It is. When he went in to get the Dallas job, he's like, well, you know, I'm, I've been studying I analytics and I'm up to all the stuff that's going on in the NFL right now and then it didn't happen in Dallas. And I just, it just feels like these other guys would be better. That's just my first take. What's yours? I mean, I guess I take them over over McDaniel, but in terms of experience coaches, but I mean, McDermott, McDermott Schwartz, those are my 1A1B and you could put whichever order you want. And these other guys, they're in the river you mirror. All right. We do have one last email here from Chuck Loughlin from Menor and Chuck says, Hey, Dave and Terry while the Browns, while the Browns are beyond frustrating, they do give us a lot of things to talk about. This topic is dysfunction. It's clear that the Browns have a dysfunctional organization, regardless of what the unbiased Jimmy Haslam says, when one team has the worst overall record in the past 27 years, culminated by the last two seasons with a combined record of eight and 26, the record speaks for itself. You are what your record says you are. And we have no established top 15, even a top 20 quarterback. And as we said so many times, it's almost impossible to win without a good quarterback. That reminds me of a book title. Why can't this team just find a quarterback? Mr. Fansky is probably the best coach we've had since coming back in 1999 unless the Browns find someone who is eager enough to be a head coach anywhere. The Browns will likely be the last team to hire a head coach after all the other spots are filled. Then we will, once again, be putting together a step of leftovers and so the cycle continues. It is really hard to break out of this cycle. Thanks for that, Chuck. Yeah, you look at that. I bet you get a lot of emails like that, right, Terry? Yeah, I do. I really do feel for Browns fans, and just it's all, I'll be out of the guy today. He's working out. You've told me about when he dropped the season tickets a couple years ago and he just couldn't take it anymore. He said, I said, look, I'm not going to convince you to spend money on a product that you don't like. Watch it on TV. If you want to go down there, whatever, but anyone that is, he was like around 60, went into the, my dad used to take me to the games thing. I said, the interesting thing would be how long does that hold for Browns fans? That's what they need to become viable for a couple of years in a row, so they could build another generation of my dad used to take me to the game. My mother would make parogies, like one person said, and we'd sit there and watch those games, especially the four o'clock game or the later on game on TV, or sometimes she even snuck them into the games, and that's what you need that, but that happens when you have something to watch. I mean, when I wrote "Vinished Browns" part of the reason was, as time passed, I really almost became angry about how those teams were put into the box of the drive, the fumble, you know, you even go back to SIPE with the Red Red 88. What are you talking about? They were watchable. They were fun. They were good guys. They were relevant. And now you look at this and go, look how good those guys were. They ran into John L.Way. You know, it's kind of like McDermott ran into Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reed. I mean, it just, it happens. When he woke us ran into Michael Jordan, they had some good teams in Toronto up there, and they kept running into LeBron James. I mean, it just, that's what happens. That sports. Yep. Yep. All right. Let's take a break here, Terry. That's a lot of browns. And again, if you want to hit us with any thoughts,
[email protected], put Terry's talking in this subject line. When we come back, I want to ask you about the Cavaliers, Terry. And if you feel like some things got to give here after yesterday, or if this is just as Kenny Ecken said, there's games like this that happened during the season, we'll get into that. And more when we return on Terry's talking. All right. We're back on Terry's talking. I did want to mention a couple of appearances. You have coming up. Terry one is on the 28th of January, man, which is coming up ready. And one is on the 29th of January at two different places. You want to talk about those? You're going to run through the dates. What do you want to do here? The 8th is be at the music box, a really kind of cool, super club thing in the flats. And it's a different type of evening. I'm doing it with Regina Brett, who needs to work for the playing dealer, and it's called like a night of faith and stories. We did this a couple months ago and it sold out. It was interesting to see Regina and I kind of wondered if anybody would come. I mean, would people be interested in that? And Regina writes, sort of like I do more, kind of from the heart. I'm talking about the faith columns and that, pretty practical stuff. And she's with the rights of the Jewish news now. She's written several books. By the way, she's a best-selling author in Poland. It's really odd, but it is. She sold like 900,000 books. I'm not making that number up in Poland. So she's a big deal over there, but she will be selling books in English at the music box in the 28th. And then 29th to 630th, there's a brand new Barnes & Noble opening in Strong'sville at the end of the month. And I will be doing, they have this area there for me to do a talk. And I will be doing a talk and if people want to bring books to get signed or have me signed books or of course it's a bookstore that we'd like to sell them to you. So I'll be doing that. The music box, I forgot what they're charging, but it's a benefit. All the stuff, the gate receipts are all going to the Haven of Rest, which is my favorite charity. It's where Roberta and I, in fact, we were there last night doing their service at the Akron City Mission, which is the Haven of Rest, do that a couple of times a month and I've been giving them money and doing things for years and years. So that's another reason I'm doing that because at the first time Regina and I did it, the beneficiary was the gathering place for people dealing with cancer and Regina's cancer survivor. So it's a nice thing. They put this thing together for those and so if you got, if you need some faith come there on 28th and if you really need some, your faith tested coming to 29th and I'll be talking about the Browns and quarterbacks and maybe a coach, maybe not. And again, 29th is the new Barnes and Noble in Strongville. All right. And for information on the 28th, the faith based event, it's musicboxcl.com, they have an event listing there. And then Barnes and Noble is at 167.00 Royalton Road in Strongville. So check that out. All right, Terry. It's been a crazy week plus for the calves. Last week they go to Philly and play a back-to-back on the road there and beat the Sixers twice, 133 to 107 and then the second game was 117 to 115 on Jalen Tyson's big night. And then they come back yesterday on MLK Day. It's a national TV game at home against OKC and they get dusted 136 to 104. Kenny Atkinson called it total domination. And as I mentioned before, the break like Kenny Atkinson said, you know what? These kind of games happened during a season. It's a long NBA season and they outperform us in every possible way. Is yesterday's game something to be concerned about or do you agree with what Kenny said that it was just another game and that they'll move on and they'll be better? I watched it. I love to be fair. I think I dumped out what about five or six minutes to go in the game. I watched it on tape. And offensively, I didn't think the effort was terrible. I really didn't. They just ran into a great team. I mean, Oklahoma City, they are the defending champions and they just they were they dominated them because they were that much better, David. I mean, they what we're seeing now and I'm surprised it hasn't happened earlier because I'm very big on this strategy. If like the other team as a great player, I'm running two and three guys that make him give up the ball and in it finally filled Elfie did it because I think in the previous four games, Donovan was averaging almost 40, 40 points against them. So in the second game last Friday, they ran everybody out of them and that's when Jaylen Tyson was open all day and kept making those shots, but I'm sure Oklahoma City was probably thinking about that. They look at that tape and go, let's see if Jaylen Tyson can go for 30 or 40 again and also were better defensively than anybody else, period. So they were, I think they came out of him hard. The calves did some really nice stuff in the paint. They really in terms of getting the ball defensively, they just had all kinds of problems. They just could not stay with Oklahoma City and to me, it was domination because they were just that much better. I wish it was like they were slick. So Terry, the calves, they have the highest payroll in the NBA, right? I'm trying to put myself in Dan Gilbert's shoes here and you're watching that game yesterday on National TV, a 32 point loss at home. Your team is highly paid. The payroll is their second apron. They're supposed to be a title contender and they go out and I know there's been injuries and stuff, but like to go out and lose by 32 on your home court. And then there was this, this was a really interesting quote from Donovan Mitchell I thought after the game yesterday talking about O.K.C. he goes, watching them defensively, they make the little rotations, they do the little things consistently. They're defending champions for a reason, kind of stealing something from them. It's watching their habits one through 15. So if I'm a calves fan and I read that, I'm like, all right, you have a highly, you have a high payroll with a lot of all-star caliber talent and it's almost February. Why don't the calves have those habits? I mean, I'm just thinking like Dan Gilbert would be thinking, what is going on? Well, I think it's also a philosophical thing. When Kenny Atkinson was brought in here, he was brought in here to jack up the offense, get her up more threes, become kind of like the Celtics were, when they won the title and that. They didn't talk much about defense. They talked about offense. And of course, the regular season last year, they delivered a top offense, but the problem when the team is kind of offensive oriented David and sort of what I would call finesse team is they can be exposed by the gritty or tougher teams now where JB was the other way. He was the defensive coach, remember, embraced the grit, all that stuff, which by the way took them from terrible to pretty good. They got to be pretty good that way, but then they couldn't score. And that's what, so that's what they flipped it. So now this year you look at what their injuries out, but when you ask yourself, who is an Oklahoma City style player? You don't get a lot of names. I would say Craig Porter Jr. is, Tyson is. Moby would be, although he's not, but he's just so talented defensively, Jared can, but sometimes he's not, then you get into Garwin is terrible defensively. I don't know what's going on. Lonzo ball. He goes out there and stands in the corner and shoots rocks. It's incredible to me. Why isn't that ball in his hands? I was told by somebody that he defers the Donovan all the time. He shouldn't be deferring to Donovan. Get Donovan off the ball. If they are double teaming you all the time, get off the ball and have them run some plays there. Another one, this is a, this is actually the deal and the contract that threw him into the second apron is Deandre Hunter. And Hunter, not Hunter sometimes looks like he'd rather be somewhere else than other times he seems engaged, but that, and I like the Hunter deal. I thought that was going to work, but you, you put, all right, and, and ball was supposed to be good defensively. He's not bad, but he's, right, the way he's playing offense now is almost, it's worse than Isaac Accoral. It's really bad. But David, they made three big kind of moves from the middle of last season to now for veteran players. Larry Nash, Jr., Ball, and Hunter, and all three have been basically, you know, failures. So I am, I'm just trying to, going back to my original question, Terry, does this feel like something that the cabs will just move on from and, and they're going to just stay the course. And, like, to be fair, right, they have barely had the same lineup for more than a couple of games at a time. Yeah. Struse is still out. Right. Ireland has heard again. Like, it's just been one. Meryl's the thing after that. Meryl's a big deal to them. Yeah. Right. And you listen to Kenny, he talks about, Meryl six, they're 16 and eight when Meryl starts. Well, I, because Meryl does some of those, those Oklahoma City things, well, we know about him making threes, but in fact, that's part of the reason he keeps getting hurt. He's like, he's drawn charges on the floor and he keeps messing up with that wrist. And Garland, he was never good defensively, but after the toe, I mean, just, it's been miserable for him. And I don't know what's going on. Now it's on the other foot. I think they put together the, they wanted this roster to score more. But then you run into these other teams, and I do think that what happened is Indiana, not Indiana's terrible issue, but last year seeing Indiana, New York, Oklahoma City in the final four, all those are tough-minded teams. And that's what Kenny Atkinson was trying to explain us and he's absolutely correct. He's not about having something to say, I need some guy like Kendrick Perkins or Rick Warren to go throw bodies around. That's what we're now talking about. You watch Oklahoma City. They just wear you out. They just keep moving. They're double-teaming like what, what Donovan talked about, Indiana, the same thing. They weren't that super physical. Yeah, they went over your back for rebounds and stuff, but they weren't dirty. This is not the pistons, but they were athletic and they were all over you. But Cavs, actually, you know when you sometimes see some of that, when they put together, you put Nick went out there with Porter and also Jellon Tyson. You see some of that spark and some of that scrambling around. I think that's. Now this is on Kenny to figure out, and you know I'm a Kenny fan. I like him as a coach and I think he's a sharp guy, but he's got to figure this out. He's also got to get a ball back into the universe of basketball, where he's in the rotation. And he's got to tell him, "We need you to bring the ball up. We need you to help defensively." And you don't have to just keep shooting threes. You are allied to drive. There's no rule that says Lonzo Ball is permitted, is not permitted to drive to the rim. That is not in the rule book. And remind him of, "Look, you may not be the same player you were before this knee thing, but you're not this either. This is ridiculous. You're better than that." All right. So Chris Feudor has a story up today on Cleveland.com, like just the gap that exists right now between the Cavs and the Thunder. Yeah. Ethan Sands, his colleague on the Cavs beat, wrote a post last week, he had talked to coaches around the league about how they use press conferences to call out players. And that some teams find that as a way to keep guys accountable. It's like, "Hey, we're all responsible here. If I do something wrong as coach, I'm going to admit that I did it wrong. If I don't think you're playing up to your potential, I'm going to call you out in a press conference. Do you think Kenny should do more of that or what do you, in terms of getting to where you think this team can be? What do you want to see Kenny do?" Yeah. Kenny could do that. More of that. One of the things is more willing to admit what he got wrong, you know, we didn't coach it well or whatever, and he could be more specific in the area, but he's very stafansky asking and protecting his players, isn't he? Yeah. He is. And it probably comes from Steve Kerr and that one of his mentors. But he's got to look at this and kind of lay out that, all right, an Aggie Basu reference, my great Hall of Fame Benedictine coach, by the way, David, in the Hall of Fame for both coaching football, high school Hall of Fame in Ohio, and baseball. And I played for Aggie at Benedictine. And when things went wrong, he would say, "Hell's Bells, that was his biggest for fan interview again." That's what I said. I did it in my high school too. Yeah. "Hell's Bells, Terry." Then he said, "You're better than that, Terry, you're better than that." And then he would say, "You miss a calloff man or whatever it is." But it would stick with you. I think he needs to give a Hell's Bells, you're better than that, things, sometimes to these guys. Because when you start with you're better than that, you're saying that I believe in you. But there's more there. There's more there. And we need to get it. We need you to do this. You've got it in you. And that would be something that I would suggest with Kenny. I know that the coaches have been, as I mentioned before, perplexed by Ball, perplexed by Hunter. But like that's the coach's jobs is to get these guys to play well. Right. Like I said, it's almost February. That's I mean, they're trying. But maybe this would be the other way to do it. Now you're right, David. That's why they're perplexed. Those guys are not hurt. Now, Struce, by the way, now he's an OKC player. If we ever see him on the court again, you know, he would be, he would be another. I mean, if you want to build an OKC type line up, you know, Donovan can play anywhere. You got OK, you would have, you would have Donovan, you would have Merrill, you would have Porter, you would have Nakewin, you would have Struce, you would have Tyson. I would throw a mobile in there, Jarrett, and I've been a big Jarrett fan, but he's been, he's disappointed in me this year. And, but this is, and just as Donovan said, just more attention to, to that. And we'll see what, we'll see what they do. I thought I'm not trying to over dramatize yesterday, because like, it feels like something's got to happen. Right. Now in the trade deadline and they're kind of handcuffed on the trade deadline. Yeah. It can't be sitting well. Yes. Or else, you know, what you end up doing, you end up trading, I know the Lakers I've heard want, DeAndre Hunter, and they want to give you a bunch of garbage back. And, but it might get you out of the second apron and you just do that and you give those minutes to Nakewin Tom one and other, you know, something like that. I don't know, the second apron's a killer. There's a reason only one team's in it. Very hamstrung. So, yeah. And we do have a quick email here, Terry, you know, move on then. This is from Joel Longtime. Listen to me, he says, hey guys, just the thoughts of an old fart lounging, lounging around recovering from bronchitis. It's a small sample size, of course, but could Tyson be the answer to start at small forward or a much more complex move, could Mitchell move over to point guard with Tyson starting at shooting guard? What do you think of that, Terry? Thanks, Joel. Yes and yes. How's that? Shorting to the point, yeah, yeah. But right now, if they're going to continue to just go after Mitchell, so hard with those other guys, then maybe you need somebody else to bring that ball up the floor. Now, this goes against things I've talked about in the past. I remember, when Garland was hurt a couple years ago, and Mitchell went to the point, I said, I like this because it came from something Doug Collins sold me when I forgot who the point guard was, they got hurt for the bulls, and he put the ball in Michael's hands. And he said, because, you know, if the guy's in the middle of the four, it's kind of hard to double team him. And Michael started averaging triple doubles back then, by the way. Now, if they didn't win the title, this was early on as career, but he's also said it made Michael think more like a point guard and passing. And he thought it was good for Michael's growth, too. And we saw that when Garland was hurt a couple of years ago, when they had streus and donov in the back court, that was pretty good. They won a lot of games that way. I forgot what the record was. It was pretty good. I had all those stats. And the streus and donov and Mitchell plus minus together was very high. So, but this is what I've seen the last couple of games is some of the most extreme double to triple teaming after a guy in a long time. And if they're going to do that, you're going to have to have him give up the ball. That means others there, or you have somebody else bring it up. I mean, Porter to me is amazing. He's actually has no position. I mean, he just, I remember when he said, you know, some guys, they just play basketball. You don't even, in fact, if he tell him that play like a guy in a position, they feel like they're in a box, you know, just tell him to go run around and play. And, and that's what he does, he, you know, he picks up guys full of courties on the floor. He goes and tries to block seven footers shots and sometimes he does, he comes from behind. He's all over the place. And that's again, that's Oklahoma City, Indiana last year style of all. And so that's, you get, you're just going to have to watch where the league is going. Yeah, they still shoot threes, but they're going to scrambling style of defense and the cows better figure it out. All right. I'd like to move, I want to move on to the Guardian's real quick. Terry, I have a question. I've been thinking about the last week. And I want to run past you. You ready? Yeah. All right. So the LA Dodgers payroll for this upcoming season is going to be over $413 million. And, you know, the Guardians and the Marlins are, I mean, we're talking about a factor of four or five times, right, which got me thinking, and I'm seeing all these guys signing for 30, 40, 50 million dollars a year and stuff. Jose Ramirez is contract for this year is 21 million, and then it's 23 million and 25 million. Yeah. Do you think the Guardian should go to him and say like, hey, should they rework his deal? Yes. Out of good faith or do you think they should go to him and say, listen, we're willing to do this, but should we use the money to make the team better? What do you think they should do? Because, no, I was, but they still want to win. I would give them a bonus for it like for this year, just give them right to check. Five million hours or something. Yeah. That'd not to be big. Just we love you. That's it. We love you bonus. And we can still keep our payroll to where we can bring in some people we want. Yeah. Almost like it's an incentive class. Yeah. I just feel like things have escalated the point of insanity around baseball. And I'm excited because he wanted to stay in Cleveland and he wanted to be good. And he's still us as far as I know now. What I'm happy about the Kyle Tucker contract with other is even like the Yankees and other going, what is going on? It has to reach some sort of boiling point so that the baseball could join all the other leagues with some type of salary cap and also salary for it that you must spend some money too. And maybe this will do it. Because otherwise, you know, just pittling around, I mean, I got an email from a guy who completely misunderstood the situation goes, why should the owners do it? They're making all this money or whatever I said. The owners are for the most, the majority owners are not the problem. Some of them, but the majority aren't the problem. The players are the problem in terms of not wanting a salary cap, but maybe manfred the commissioner has not been afraid to make changes and make some tough decisions. We'll go after this and put the Dodgers, you know, put the target on them and say, is this where we wanted to go? They can just keep spending and spending and spending. And do you really, really want baseball to be that way? I think the players would say yes. Yes, they do. And the owners would say no, but, you know, the owners do have power. It's going to be an intense negotiation. If they get put some pressure on those guys, and there's a reason, all the other leagues, they've been able to get salary caps. I mean, even something like what the NBA has, a max contract situation. No contracts are longer than five years, most are fourth, and they're worth a ton of money, but it's not like you're sitting there going, oh my god, what am I going to do? You know, for this guy's getting 10 years, Scott Boros is, you know, trying to have you pray for his great, great, great, great grandkids to go to Yale. I mean, it just, it's incredible what the Boros, the big time agent, by the way, that's the reference there. Well, we're probably going to see some kind of a work stop, as I think before we see that, but we'll see where that ends up. Okay. You did have a book you want to talk about this week, a John Grishon book. Great. Yeah. I did. Grishon's one of my favorite authors, and it's called The Widow. And to me, after I don't know how many books, I mean, John's written more books than I have, and he's written a lot better books because it's a fiction, all that. It's so much more challenging, and there's stuff that I do. And it's a, it's about this kind of second rate lawyer who has this woman who acts like she has all these assets and things, and it's, it's a con job going on during it. But his ability at small town, you know, he's good in small town, southern settings. And he just moves a story, and I mention it over the weekend. And Mike Snyder, who's a WT, T-A-M, his wife's lot ordered it and read it in two days. So, really? So there we go. That's high praise. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't catch the Rainmaker, which was on TV a few months ago, which is a, based on a John Grishon. Yeah. I have, I think, from the '90s, maybe. It was one of his earlier ones, I think. But he's great at like painting characters and giving them texture, I think he really excels at that. Yeah. And also, I mean, he just, he just has such a feel for the South and is, and I lived and, I could say this, I lived in the South, probably about three years of my life. I was worked twice in Savannah and once in Greensboro. So I'm not just acting like some total Yankee who never lived down there. And I granted that was in the '70s and '80s, but I was there. And it really, especially a place like Savannah, which is real old South, when John writes about Mississippi or those places, you know, that's, as I said, and of course, I mentioned that thing when my favorite author is Wyoming's, CJ Box with Game Warden Joe Pickett is his guy and he also has some others and he's a great reed too. So, and as someone who goes to Wyoming many times and he, he makes you feel Wyoming. James Lee Burke, whose I like some of his novels and others, which books are sitting Louisiana or the Bayou and that, I mean, you could just feel the sweat coming down and how humid it is and the mosquitoes buzzing and just the swamp and, you know, is that an alligator out there or what is that. He's really good at that. So those are all fun authors to me, to me reading sort of the mysteries and some of the other stuff is a big stress reliever. Yeah, I think the widow is Jean Grisham's latest book, so check that out and just called the widow. All right, I say this question for the end, Terry, because I thought it was really interesting so I thought we would end on this. It comes from Ron Rischner. Ron, I hope I got your last name right. It's R-Y-C-H-E-N-E-R from Hilton, Ed South Carolina. He says, "Hey, Terry, of the three football, baseball and basketball, which coach or manager do you think has the greatest impact on the success of the team? Which has the greatest impact on the team's failure? Can a bad coach or manager still have a successful team? That is, are his weaknesses hidden by good players rising above it? I enjoy hearing and reading about your encyclopedic knowledge of our Cleveland teams. Thanks, Ron. All right, so I guess what he's getting at, Terry, which coach or manager has the greatest impact on the success of the team? A football coach, a basketball coach or a baseball manager? How would you rank those? I have my ranking here. Good. Please rank it. You sent it to me. I'm still. It's a good question. I feel like I'm still a clueless landlord looking at all those head coaching candidates who have no resumes. Go ahead. All right. I think football has the greatest impact because there are 11 guys on the field in every play. If one of them doesn't do their job, the play blows up. Things have to be working in synchronization. There's so much detail and coaching that goes on in football and it's just so intricate that a bad coach will never have a good team like I'm pretty convinced of that. Number two is basketball. Let me do baseball. Baseball is my third one. You theoretically could put a baseball team out on the field. You could put schemes out on the hill and he'll throw a nine inning shot out and you have your best cleanup hitter hit a homerun. You win one and nothing and you'd need to lift a finger, right? So I think baseball is the least impact, although I know you're probably going to bring up a lever, but I just think that baseball is the lowest on list. I think basketball is kind of in between those two where I think there's culture and basketball just like there's baseball and football, but it's a little bit more hands off than football and maybe more hands on than baseball. So that's my order, football, basketball, baseball. What do you think, Terry? Of course, probably one just because it's like running the Pentagon, you know, all those things. Number two would be baseball and number three, here's why I say basketball. So Braun James hooked up with David Blatt to go to the NBA finals. You either have LeBron James or you don't. You either have Magic Johnson or you don't. You have Michael Jordan or you don't and here's the difference. When you have a player in basketball, your foot, you as great as your quarterback is, he doesn't play defense. Baseball, there, you're unless it's Tony, oh, show, hey, he doesn't pitch and hit both. What Braun James, Shay Guilness Alexander watch the other night, they're involved in like almost every play in the game. They can and five play in basketball, nine or slash 10 depending on how you want to count the G that they're in in baseball and an army place in football. So in other words, a star in basketball has a greater impact than the other sports because he's just out there with everything. The coach's main job in basketball is yes, is some strategic, but also just managing these Eagles and personalities, that's that's where you run the challenging things in basketball. But that's my feeling, but we both land down football first, I think just because it seems to be so complex, even though you could say if you don't have a quarterback. All right, so who are the four quarterbacks in the final four? Well, let's see, you've got Sam Darnold, we all do he be there. Stafford. Yeah. Back up to Bonix or Bonix, let's go to Bonix, all right, main, main, yeah, from the hatred. It's right. Right. So you got a second or it was May second year, I think it is a second, second, yeah. And you got Nick's who was considered to be drafted to higher or whatever. And either one of those guys was like considered supposed to be an instant star. Sam Darnold has been booted around. And then Stafford, you know, he's been a lead quarterback, he's battled injuries, but he's got a Super Bowl ring. But I would say none of them are your, you know, vintage LeBron James version of a quarterback there. But so I get argue then that you got Sean Payton and Alie coach and you've got an Alie coach with Rabel, I think he'd been coach of the year and all that before that. And so then you start looking at that and the impact those guys have made with their teams. Obviously McVey is considered an elite coach and who am I forgetting? I just got McDonnell McVey Payton and McDonnell, that's right, McDonnell, up and coming coach, up and coming coach. So that's it. And then, you know, so you, those guys I think have real impact. And McDonnell jacked up their record pretty quick and that baseball is, it's really interesting because it's so much now driven by you mentioned or weaver, but the analytics and how to do that. But I think, you know, the leadership element that we've seen from Stephen vote the last two years, that's kind of Frank Kohnish. You can't really, in fact, I know for a while, Chris Entenetti told me several years ago, early on in Frank Kohnish period, Chris Entenetti said they even try to quantify how do you measure clubhouse chemistry in that because Tito talked about it in the end, they really couldn't. It's almost like, you know, when you see it and you kind of know when you don't have it, you could try to find certain guys around that help bring it. But that's an interesting, it's an interesting debate. So you can say football, baseball, basketball, and I have football, basketball, baseball. So anybody listening, want to send in your thoughts on that one, which manager coach has the biggest impact hit us? I remember talking to Red R block, it's a name drop, but it's true. I interviewed him from my book, Tall Tales, MVA 60s and 70s. And we talked about why, when he tired or basically moved us here as a GM, he may bill rustle to the coach, player coach. And he said, one, I knew it would be very hard to get anybody else to coach bill, but secondly, I knew Bill as the coach would really make Bill as a player, you know, deliver. And because, again, Bill rustles on the court, back then he was playing like 42 minutes a game. He's playing, you know, he didn't have to play as much offense, but he would play some. And he would just, in other words, X's and O's are important, but they're not everything at all in there because the great stars impact the game in so many different ways. Yeah. And the, as you said, the NBA is a player's league. So, yeah. All right. That'll do it for us, I think. Anything else you want to get into here? I think of all the podcasts we've ever done. Yeah. This is the most recent. That's true. Memory, memory. All right. I do want to mention Terry. Terry did talk about his newsletter earlier in the podcast. You can sign up for that by going to cleveland.com/pluto. There's a blue bar at the top. You get two weeks free. It'll be jammed full of interesting coaching stuff, which you can check out tomorrow at noon. And it comes out every Wednesday. So, have a great week. Everybody, we will talk to you next time. Terry's talking.
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