The #1 Small Talk Rule That Makes People Like You (Stanford Communication Professor)

Your brain is like the computer. A computer CPU has only limited bandwidth. This is why I want to bust a myth here. Memorizing is so bad. So I tell my students it's about connection, not perfection. Okay, this is already so, so good. Yeah. I have feelings, but then I also have feelings about my feelings. Many of us run around with that volume turned up to 11, and that gets in the way of our communications. What? So what? Now what? Wow, can we do this every week? Yeah. I'm Sheree. I'm Jean. I'm Matt. And we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Have you ever left a conversation and immediately been like, "Oh my god, why did I say it that way?" Communicating clearly, confidently, and effectively is something we've discussed before. But today we're taking it to the next level with Professor Matt Abrahams. A world-renowned communications expert lecturer at Stanford GSB, author, and my former coach for my TED talk. At the end of this episode, you will have all the tools and frameworks that you need. The next time you're making small talk at a dinner table, they'll come you're networking, or even when you're making that big presentation. And you'll have saved $250,000 by getting all of the key lessons from Matt's perennially sold-out class at Stanford Business School. Yes, guys, this is a true crash course. And we're going to teach you how to think on your feet, how to calm your nerves, and how to network and above all how to talk to anyone. Let's get into it. Hi, Matt. Hey, great to be with you, Sri. And Gene. Thanks so much for coming to the Tiger Sisters podcast. I am thrilled to be here. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Okay, Matt. So let's dive in to the challenge of how to talk to anyone. What actually makes someone easy to talk to? Is it confidence, curiosity, charisma, or something else? I think it's all those seas. I think we have to be confident in ourselves and in our presence in the room. We have to be curious. Curiosity is a great lead-in to most communication. And while charisma is something that we're not quite sure exactly what it is, I mean, we can definitely feel it, but in terms of dissecting it, it's this idea that we have a presence, some energy, some interest. And that's what really draws people to us. And it also means not being distracted. It means leaning in physically. There's so much that goes into what makes somebody interesting to talk to. And I challenge everybody to just pay attention to the people you're interested in talking to. What is it that they're doing? What do you notice? And from that, you can begin not to copy them, but to build some of those behaviors into your own communication. So Matt, why do some people feel like you're instantly safe to open up to them versus other people? Even if they're really, really nice, you feel intimidated by them. You don't feel comfortable talking to them. If you aren't already engaged in a conversation, we're relying on people's nonverbal presence. What they do with their bodies. If we're open, we're leaning forward. If we're paying attention and looking at people, these are all signals that I'm here for you and I'm present. If I'm distant, if I'm looking away, if I'm crossing my arm, these all send signals. There's no one correlate, like crossing arms means I shouldn't talk to that person or I don't want to be talked to. But it's the amalgamation. It's all of them together send signals. And that's why it's important for all of us to be aware of how we show up in our nonverbal presence. At Stanford's Business School, where I teach strategic communication, all of my students are digitally recorded in different communication situations. And while it's very stressful, I tell people it's like going to the dentist. Most people don't like going, but they're really glad they've been. After people watch themselves, they become more aware. The reality is we're not that aware of what we do with our bodies when we communicate. So seeing it and then changing it can make us be more approachable. In the academic world, we call this immediacy. It's you want to be immediately present with someone and that's what's really inviting. Okay, and so in this class, is there a common reaction that your students have when they watch themselves back? Well, besides cringe. Yes, so the biggest thing is what we call the perception gap. People come back, come all the time and say, "I appeared more confident than I felt." And the reason for that is we have a whole bunch of insight into what's going on in our bodies and our minds that others don't. So I know what I was intending to say versus what I said. I feel my heart pounding and my knees shaking, but none of that comes across. So one of the biggest learnings people take away is that those internal feelings and states aren't always translated into what we do. So it's actually a big confidence boost for my students. And I encourage everybody listening and watching to record yourself and watch. And I'll share exactly how I make my students do it. First, they watch without listening. So they just see the nonverbal presence. Oh, wow. And then they listen without watching. So they hear what their voice does. And then they watch all to get both together. In each time they gain insight. And again, painful. But the learning is transformational. Yeah, this is so useful. So what do you have them say when they feel like do they like read something? The very first time they do it, we teach our students to storytelling. And as part of our class, we believe that there are five fundamental stories that everybody in business should be able to tell. And one is the pie in the face story where you embarrassed yourself or something didn't go well, but you learned something, the crucible story where you were really put to the test and you had to resolve something. So there are five choices. Students pick one of them and it's a two to three minute story. We work on what makes for a good story. How do you bring emotion? And that's what we have them watch for the first time. I like that assignment because one, there's variety. Not everybody's saying the same thing. And two, it's a genuine true story so people can be authentic because we like to start off talking about authenticity, warmth, etc. So everybody listening and watching, think about a story you can tell and record yourself. I'm certain you guys watch your videos and see what you're doing and learn from it. Yeah, it's a very useful teaching tool. We're mostly seated though. Well, you can do it seated, you can do it standing, you're going to learn a lot either way. Yeah, I've actually done the sex exercise. Sorry to, I never shared with you. But I took strategic communication. Yes, I know from my colleagues. Yes, with Alice and Clueger. For help, for you. And Bert. And I've actually done this exercise before. And it is so crazy. The different ways that you can perceive yourself without sound, with sound or both combined because if you're just focusing on the body language, you can see where you're doing really well or what's lacking and you can focus on the visual aspect. Our voice distracts us. And similarly, our movements distract us from hearing what our voice is doing. So taking the time to do that. And again, for my students, it's nine minutes out of their day, but it's a very valuable nine minutes. And when you film the students, are they presenting in front of all the other classmates? So for this particular assignment, we have them up in front of half the class. We baby steps towards larger audiences because a larger audience can be intimidating. So part of what we're trying to do in the whole course is build confidence. And so we start a little small and then graduate as we go. Yeah, that is so cool. I can't believe you never told me about this. I see the learning goes one way. What is this? Actually, see if you can get a copy of that video and then you've got some leverage. There you go. The beginning of the class, end of the class, you can see also how much I am. Absolutely. So my students, they redo that first presentation as their last presentation. But the idea is that they apply everything they've learned over the course so they can see the difference because it's very empowering, I think, when you leave a class feeling like I've actually made a lot of progress. Not to say that there isn't more progress to be made. I think all of us can continue to evolve our communication. But it's a very powerful reminder that in just an academic quarter, how much I've improved. Yeah. I mean, if you're listening or watching this conversation right now, I urge you to take 30 minutes from your Saturday or your Sunday to do this exercise. I know it sounds like, oh, that sounds good in practice, but like actually do this exercise because the learnings from it, because how else will you know how you come across? You don't really get that feedback in real time or you're talking to people, no one's going to tell you that you're very closed off. But if you can actually do this exercise yourself and self-analysed or with a trusted friend you can share it with and get feedback from them, I think this makes a world of a difference. Absolutely. And that feedback part is so important. Even though we're seeing it ourselves, we're not perceiving it as somebody else might. So getting feedback from a trusted other makes a lot of sense. I'm sure there's a lot of feedback going on between the two of you and that's helpful, right? Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of sit-up straight. We remind each other to sit up straight. It's a lifelong battle. One of the great easiest ways to do that is just pull your shorter blades down and you pull the shorter blades down. It forces you to sit up straight. We're asking the right person. It's seriously. What is the idea behind having the story ready? Like, what? So leaders are often in a situation. So it's premised on the fact that story really can help move, motivate, and inspire. In as leaders, we should have stockpiled some stories that we can pull in at any point. So I have a story that I love to use all the time. The biggest fight my wife and I have ever had is over toothpaste. And it usually gets that reaction like that's ridiculous. Then I'll tell you the truth. And this is a true story. My wife's a roller and I'm a squeezer. And there's nothing worse to a roller than a squeezer because we move in that work. But this story, one, it builds curiosity. You're like, what? This is crazy. But I can use that story to then talk about lots of different things. I can talk about respect. I can talk about listening. talk about knowing your audience. So having these stories as starters that you're comfortable with allows you to feel better in these in the moments where I have to inspire, motivate, persuade. So we're teaching our students to start cataloging and stockpiling early on. That is so smart. That is so strategic. But I think a lot of people with social anxiety can benefit from already having some of these anecdotes pre-planned. 100% and think about a job interview. If you go into a job interview and you think about, "Hey, here's some data I might need to share or could share." Here's a good story or two or here's a testimonial from a previous boss or a tribute I got. Having those at the ready help, you know, the thing that I teach that is often most counterintuitive is you can prepare to be spontaneous. And that sounds strange. It sounds like it's disingenuous. But think of an athlete. An athlete does a tremendous amount of drills so that when they're in the moment, they can respond spontaneously. We can do the same thing. It's just like an athlete goes to the gym and works out. We can stockpile our stories. We can do practice drills with AI. There are all these things we can do to help us get ready. So when we're in the moment, we can respond appropriately and be really present. So we're not in our head saying, "Oh my goodness, what am I going to say?" I just pull that in and then I can have that really present connection. I love that metaphor. Being a communication athlete. There we go. Yeah, that's right. It's so cool. Well, Gina and I, we say a lot, prepare to win. Yeah. So if you're going to have those tough conversations or be put on the spot and you need to be spontaneous, you have to do the prep work and the introspection ahead of time. Yeah. But I am shocked that in my 37 years of living and working, no one has ever taught me to prepare these stories. A lot of us don't get education on very practical, tactical communication skills. And just as you are focused on educating one billion people, I am focused on bringing practical, tactical tools to people because this is where life happens. It happens in the communication and there are things we can do to prepare ourselves and stockpiling stories, digitally recording yourself, getting feedback from others. These are all very strategic and tactical tools that we can use to get better. Yeah. I guess they don't teach it at Harvard Business School. No, not with Kabe. I have some amazing colleagues at Harvard who teach great communication classes. You know, Jean, we're always talking about money, power and love on this podcast, but something that I've learned from creating Sisters Matcha is actually pretty simple. What is it? Distribution is everything. Oh, 100%. You can have the best products in the world like we do, but if nobody sees it, it doesn't matter. And for those of you who don't know, Jean and I have a matcha brand called Sisters Matcha and it's from this one family farm that we source from that both Jean and I lived and worked on in Japan. Yeah, this business is our baby and we trust Shopify to take our business to the next level. Shopify is how your products get discovered everywhere on Google, YouTube, TikTok, shop, the shop app, exactly because I feel like one of the main axioms in business is to meet your customers where they are and that is exactly what Shopify does for us. Build your store, own your audience and actually create something that you love. Start today at shopify.com/tiger sisters. Okay, I'm going off script a little bit here, but can you tell us Matt, what are these five stories that you teach your students that everyone should have ready? So these five stories come from an excellent book called The Pin Drop Principle, the idea being that when you tell them you could hear a pin drop. And the five are, I just so happen to have my Tiger Sister card here, the value story, something that talks about a value you have and why it's important to pie in the face where you've made a mistake but learned something from it. Origin story, something that's really fundamental to who you are and how that developed over time. The crucible story, where you were really tested and you need to respond and show how you've changed. And then finally, the solution story where you've solved a problem or captured an opportunity. And being able to tell each of those stories allows you in situations where you might be put on the spot or you need to connect and draw people in to know with confidence that I can tell those stories. It's not to be memorized and just insert here, but it's to give you a place of comfort to go to when you need it. So many people understand that communication is really important, but the one thing that I think everyone stresses out about is small talk. So can you give us some insight into why small talk is important and what are the best ways to go about it because it can feel so uncomfortable? Yeah, it's so funny when you bring up small talk. So in my most recent book, Think Faster Talk Smarter, in the back of the book, I have six specific situations where people apply spontaneous speaking. And the very last one I threw in almost as a whim was small talk. And it turns out to be the one everybody is curious about. So who knew? But small talk is really challenging for many people. And part of it is the way we frame it. Many of us see it as a necessary evil. As a way to be punished for having to be around people in an elevator and a social event. In fact, big things happen in small talk. I think we have to rebrand it. I challenge everybody listening and in watching. Think about your friendship group, the real friends that you hang out with. My hunch is at least one of those people you met through some kind of small talk. We connect, we learn to collaborate, we initiate deeper communication through small talk. Now we need to get better at it. And the biggest challenges people report to me are, how do I start it? And how do I get out of it? But before we do that, approach matters a lot. On my show Think Faster Talk Smart, I interviewed Rachel Greenwald. And Rachel is a fascinating person. She is a professional matchmaker and an academic. Go figure that out. And she taught me many things. One of the things she taught me is the way you approach it. Many of us approach small talk thinking we have to be interesting. It's all about being interesting. I think in what she shared with me is it's about being interested. So the goal is to be interested in the other person, lead with curiosity and inquiry. The analogy I use is you know, tennis, the whole goal is to ace the ball over the net. And many of us feel like that's how we need to do small talk. I got to say something that's brilliant and get that ace. In fact, it's more like hacky sack. You know, that little bean bag where the whole goal is just to keep the bag up in the air. So when you change that approach, it takes pressure off of us. The single best way I know to start small talk is within inquiry or observation. So I can go up to somebody and say, what did you think about that keynote speech we just heard? I was at a banquet after a big work event. And we were in line. It was a buffet. And there's a guy standing next to me. I didn't know. And it's one of those things where we're close enough that we kind of should talk because it's really weird not to talk. And I just used an observation. I looked around the room and it turned out. Everybody was wearing different shades of blue. There wasn't like a uniformer's just coincidence. I turned around. I said, I must have missed the memo on the blue outfit. He looked around and said, yeah, that is weird. And that started our conversation. That's all we needed. He and I have become very good friends. We exchanged LinkedIn information that night. And whenever I traveled to where he lives, I visit whenever he comes out where I live. It was all just based on an observation. So inquiry, questions, observation, that's how we start. We have the approach. It's about being interested, not interesting. And then how do we get out of them? So Rachel taught me that she calls it the white flag. Not for surrender, but in an auto race, they signal the last lap by waving the white flag. So in conversation, when I'm done with my small talk, where I want to move on, I signal it. I say, this has been a great conversation. In a few minutes, I'm going to go over there and talk. But before I leave, I have one more question. I'd like to hear a little bit more. So you signal the conversation is going to end soon, but you come back with a little bit more. So it's not an abrupt ending. I've prepared you that I'm going to leave soon. You can start thinking about what you're going to do next. And it's just such a nice way to part because the way most of us do it is we rely on biology. I'm hungry. I'm thirsty. I have to go to the bathroom. And that comes back. I was talking to this guy once and I said, Oh, thank you. I got a run of the bathroom. He said, Oh, me too. And not all of a sudden, we had another 20 minute conversation, a very awkward environment. So we once you feel comfortable starting and ending, then it becomes easier. Yeah. I think I need to practice. I know. I was going to just be like, I want to try it out. So I'd say, this has been a great conversation. I, or I've learned so much from you, or I've learned so much. I want to go see the, I want to go meet that person over there. There's someone over there I want to talk to. So you signal where you're going. Okay. And then, and then you come back with, but I'd really be curious about one more thing. Are you talking about going to Hawaii? Which island did you go to? So you come back with just one last lap before you leave. Try it. It's been so great getting to know you, Sherry, for the last 30 years of your life. I'm going to go over there and talk to Katie, but you know, I just want to know one last thing is so maybe a little more practice, but you got, but you got the framework. You got the framework. Yeah. And actually it is easier when you're in the moment and in the environment than to do it in a rehearsed way like you're doing. It's just very natural. It's, you'll see somebody over there and say, I want to go do that. And, but before I go, nice and easy. Because that's what you're trying to do anyways. When you're, when you're wanting to exit, you're like, oh, there is someone over there that I should probably say hello to. But then like instead of saying, oh, I'm going to go grab a drink or something and then do, you know, a lap around, you're actually being like, oh, there is, you're like saying what you're thinking out loud. Right. And there's a, there's a whole bunch of evidence that's fairly recent that came out that that people feel that conversations go on too long. And when you ask them why, it's because I don't know how to get out of it. Yes. Right. And so conversations have a natural ebb and flow. And when it's time to be done, just signal and leave and it makes it easier for everybody. Instead of asking one last question, Could you be like, let's exchange information. - Perfect, there's some culminating activity, so it's not a cold stop. That's the awkwardness. We've all been part of that conversation where it's like, I'm gonna go get a drink, right? And we're trying to avoid that. - So you know how every year I have a New Year's resolution around finances. - Oh, I have one, two for 2026. New year, new opportunity to get our money right. - And part of that is having a bank that isn't just a place to park our cash, but something that actually works for us. - Exactly. And that's where our sponsor, SoFi Plus, comes in. - SoFi Plus is a premium membership that pulls everything together, banking, investing, and financial planning, all in one place. - With qualifying activities, SoFi Plus members can unlock $1,000 or more in annual value. - That value comes from things like 5% cashback, at grocery stores, or an investment match for your IRA. - Oh, my favorite one is the unlimited one-on-one sessions with SoFi wealth financial planners. - SoFi Plus is a great way to get more for your money, and you can get started for just $10 a month. - Go to SoFi.com/tigerplus. That's SoFi.com/tigerplus. And now back to our show. - So Matt, I recently made an Instagram reel where I talked about this concept of metacognition, where just personal anecdot, like I have feelings, but then I also have feelings about my feelings. So I'm not just, you know, upset. I feel embarrassed that I'm upset. So that's a separate issue, but I'm definitely very much like in my head, and kind of like monitoring and self-monitoring. And so in your book, you write that we judge ourselves, and the more we judge ourselves, the more difficult it is to connect with the other person. And I think a lot of people self-monitor, but probably at different levels, how does overthinking, how you're coming across, actually hurt or honestly kill the connection? - So I want to start by saying, I am not for not judging and evaluating what we say. We need to-- - Okay. - Because bad things happen when we don't do that. - When we have no filter. - Right, but many of us run around with that volume turned up to 11, and that gets in the way of our communication. Let me share a quick story. In about 10 years ago, the deans of the business school at Stanford came to me and said, "We have a problem. Our incredibly bright students are struggling to do cult calling. I'm sure you both remember cult calling." That's where the professor looks at you and says, "What do you think and you have to respond?" And our students knew the answer. It was just hard because they were put on the spot. So they asked me, "Is there something you can do to help?" So I put together a course which eventually became the book, the Think Faster Talks Martyr methodology, was based on this. And it's a way to help students feel comfortable in these moments. We rely on improvisation. So we play an improv game, and the game is called Shout the Wrong Name. And it's very simple. For 15 seconds, you just point at different things in the room and you call it anything but what it is. It's actually harder than it sounds. So if I point to the ceiling, I don't say ceiling. I call it yellow dove car, just not ceiling. And we're playing this game, and I have a student who's pointing at a chair and nothing's coming out of his mouth. And I go up to him, I said, "What's going on?" He said, "I'm not being wrong enough." Now I give no rubric around right, no surrongness. - So funny. - And I said, "Tell me more." He said, "Well, I was going to call the chair a cat, but a cat has four legs and a chair has four legs. I'm not being wrong enough. Sometimes a cat sits on a chair. I'm not being wrong enough." Now, we all do this. Now, he's several standard deviations out from what most of us do, but we're judging in our heads. And you can imagine how that evaluation gets in the way of us actually, in his case, saying anything. Your brain is like a computer. It's not a perfect analogy, but a computer CPU has only limited bandwidth. If I have lots of windows and apps open, each one of those windows and apps is sucking some of that CPU bandwidth. When I'm judging and evaluating to that extreme, I'm really taxing my cognitive bandwidth. And that means I can't connect, adapt, and adjust. People think, "Oh, I'll memorize." And then I can really connect what's happening when you memorize is you've created the right way to say it. And as I'm saying it, I'm constantly comparing what I'm saying to what I wanted to say. I have limited bandwidth. It's about being present and being there. Maybe it will come out exactly the way I wanted, but at least I'm in that moment with you versus being in my head. So we do a lot of this judgment. Metacognition, meta-awareness is really important. But if we take it to an extreme, it actually can reduce our opportunity to really connect. On the first day of my strategic communication class, I ask my students, I say, the goal of this course is to maximize your mediocrity. And you can both appreciate how MBA students might respond to hearing that. They've never been told to be mediocre. But now that you understand this cognitive bandwidth and you understand what I'm saying is, when you focus on just doing it instead of doing it perfectly, you end up doing it better. - Yeah. And I think a lot of people listening to this will relate to that because we are go getters, we're perfectionists, we're telling A's, we-- - Strivers. - Strivers and we want to be right or feel right or sound right. But honestly, the people that we're talking to, whether it's at a dinner party or if you're giving a presentation, people are generally very forgiving. - Absolutely. - Of mistakes that you make and they're rooting for you to do a good job. And so in our heads, we are our own worst enemies. We want to be right. But also the person that we're talking to doesn't know what we're supposed to say. - That's exactly right. Yeah, they only know what they hear. There is a, and I can't remember where I saw this cartoon, but it's the speaker's view of how they're envisioning their audience and the audience's view of how they're envisioning the speaker. So in the communicators view, the thought bubble is almost like what you would see in American Idol. It's a bunch of judges holding cards, grating them. That's how they're seeing it. And then the audience, in the other hand, they're just sitting like open-armed, waiting to get this useful information. We think people are judging and evaluating us and they're not. They're there to get value from us. Now yes, people do make assumptions and they do judge. But by and large, people want you to succeed. It's incredibly awkward to be in a conversation where the person talking to is awkward, nervous, uncomfortable. We don't like that. So we want people to succeed. So if we can dial down that pressure on ourselves, it really helps. And by the way, there is no right way to communicate. There are better ways and worse ways, but there's no one right way. If there were, we'd all be communicating perfectly. And that's not the way it works. - Hmm. Can we go back to your improv activity for a second? - Did you want to try it a lot? - We can. - I was just wondering, what is the goal of it? The goal of the activity is to show people. So it does several things. So the goal of shot the wrong name, at least the way I use it. And I learned this from one of my colleagues, Adam Tobin, he and I co-teach a class where he brings improv and I bring communication skills. We use it to do several things. One, we use it to bring forward how much we judge our communication. And then the second thing is what happens almost immediately with most people is they fall into routine and pattern. So if you've got 15 seconds to point as fast as you can, you start doing things like certain categories. I'm gonna just do colors or animals. Or I do what I call x plus one where I'm gonna look at the camera and call it the light. And then I look at the light and call it the camera. So I'm just whatever I next saw. And so we say, time out, look what your brain is doing in that moment. It's helping you solve a problem. But when I fall into one of those categories, for example, what am I missing? So if you and I are having a conversation and you ask me for what I think is feedback. So you ask a question, oh, she wants feedback. And I immediately start giving feedback and lock into that. What did I miss? I'll give you an example here. I came out of a meeting with a colleague and my colleague said, how do you think that went? And the meeting had gone very poorly. So I heard feedback and I started itemizing all the things we did wrong and all the things we could have done better. But had I really listened and observed in that moment and not immediately jumped into that heuristic of feedback, I would have noticed he was looking down. He came out the back door, his tone and affect were low. He didn't want feedback, he wanted support. And my itemizing, all the things he did wrong, I damaged that relationship. We took six weeks to fix it. So part of what this activity does is it highlights what academics call heuristics, mental shortcuts we use. And we need mental shortcuts. You could not get through the grocery store if you did not have mental shortcuts because you see all these choices. How do you choose what you choose? But sometimes those shortcuts actually get in the way of us being present and connecting. So this activity highlights a lot of these different things. And it's a fun way to do it, versus listening me lecture about heuristics, believe me. It gets the students involved. And I kind of like-- Have you done it? I did a version of this because I took a theater class at the Stanford like theater department. My professor was a professional clown. Is a professional clown, is fabulous. But we did a version of this. And I think it's great because it takes business school students and people who like think, you know, we're on our high horse, and we're like, where are Stanford Business School? And they're like, oh crap. We can't even do the silly game. And we're in our heads. It's humbling for us. It's so humbling. And I think we need that humbling. Well, I definitely think it opens people up. When you see something as simple as you go, I can't do that. All of a sudden now, there's a problem I can solve. We're going to an improv class this week. Oh, great Saturday, my first ever. And you've done improv before? Yes. So the mistake people make about improv is they think it's about being funny. And it's not. It's about being present. Well, naturally funny. Well, I know. So you're going to ace it. That's right. Because improv is a competition. No, error. It's about being supportive. And it's about really listening. So these are all very useful skills. I'm excited. We'll report back. Yes. We'll go into years. Guys, something funny has been happening lately, which is that we've been seeing you guys saying more and more that watching Tiger Systems, is like getting a free MBA. And we don't disagree. Jean went to Harvard Business School. I went to Stanford's Business School. And every week you get everything we learned distilled into a conversational format. All the frameworks, all the lessons, and all the incredible conversations that we took away. So you guys are basically getting a free MBA while you're driving to work or while you're folding your laundry. Exactly. So subscribe now wherever you get your podcast on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple podcasts. And big news, we are dropping a newsletter very soon. So make sure you sign up at the link in our description to get even more incredible content. And now back to the show. Okay, so Matt, transitioning to something very tactical. So one thing that we hear all the time is that speaking on the spot is so, so hard. And I know you teach your framework and it's called like a 321 framework where you organize your thoughts and you can speak on the spot. So can you tell us a little bit about this and how we can use it right now? If you think about it, most of our communication is spontaneous. Yeah. It's not the presentations, pitches, and meetings with agendas. Those are all planned. Somebody asks you a question. You're asked for feedback. You make a mistake. You have to fix it. You have to make small talk. You have to apologize in the moment. These are all how we communicate. Yet we rarely learn how to do this. One of the keys that gets you through this is to have a structure. A structure is nothing more than a framework. A guidepost, a GPS to help you get through it. There are lots of structures. You all know structures. If you've ever watched a television ad, you've seen a structure problem, solution benefit. Most TV ads are there some issue challenge in the world. The product or service fixes it and you benefit in some way. That's a structure. It's a roadmap. My favorite structure is three simple questions. What? So what? Now what? What is the information you're talking about? So what is why it's important? Now what is what? Now what is what comes next? Let me give you an example. Imagine you're in a meeting. Your boss turns you and says, "Can you give me an update on that project?" You don't have a slide deck. You didn't know you were going to be asked what are you going to do. What's the update? So what's why it's important to the goals? KPIs you have. And now what's what comes next? I just got really nervous. Because I said, "Give me an update." Yeah, that's what I looked at you. I'm sorry. My next example. I'll look at Gene so you don't have to be nervous. I'll have an update ready. Okay. Of course. With all the spreadsheets. Yeah, well, what's the what? And now what? Oh, there you go. But imagine feedback. So this time somebody actually really wants your feedback. I could say, I thought this meeting went really well. Except when you talked about the implementation plan, you spoke quickly and didn't give a lot of detail. That's the what. When you speak quickly without a lot of detail, people might think you're nervous or unprepared. That's the so what. Next time, slow down when you cover this material and add this additional information. That's the now what. All of the sudden when I'm put on that spot, I know how I'm going to answer. I'm going to use what so what. Now what? I just have to think about what to put in. I'm going to use another analogy to describe this. It's like a recipe. I'm a lousy cook. I am a better cook when I have a recipe. This is the recipe. And you can use this one in particular. What so what? Now what? In many, many situations. I call it the Swiss Army Knight of communication structures. And you can practice it. When people are done listening to the Tiger Sisters, I want everybody at the end to say, what's one thing I learned? Why is it important to me? And how can I use that information? By practicing that, you're actually laying down neural pathways. So it becomes easier to do when you listen or speak. And now all of a sudden you have this tool in your toolkit. And when somebody puts you on the spot, you know how to respond. Yeah. I love it. He gave him many exercise. A many exercise. He's a real professor. It's part of my job. Homework and exercises and readings. That's what we do. Well, Matt, you mentioned in one of your examples of how to use this framework is in apologies. And I remember there was a lecture that we had in strategic communications about apologies and the right way to do apologies. And I think the context of that was maybe more in the corporate setting, like what are ways to. That's crisis management. Crisis management or companies should apologize. But I'd like to take us to the personal setting. Is there a right or wrong way to, or I guess, a better way to communicate an apology? And I'm wondering if the what, so what, now what framework can apply? I absolutely think it can. I don't think there's one right way to apologize, but there are many ways, wrong ways to apologize. So, and my wife has been. She's received lots of bad apologies over the years. So, a couple of characteristics. So, yes, I think what's, so what, now what? Is a very nice structure to package up an apology. I actually have a whole chapter in Think Fester Talk Smarter about apologies. The big nuggets I'd like people to take away are when you apologize. It's important to apologize for what you have done, not how you made the person feel. So, I'm sorry I made you upset. Is not an apology. No, it's not. I'm sorry. It sounds like we have some experience there. I might say, I'm sorry I interrupted you. That's the action that I did that caused the upset. So, it's acknowledging the behavior. And it's very important to explain the remedy. So, people understand that I is the offender understand and demonstrating how I changed it. So, if the fault is I interrupted you, I might say, I'm sorry I interrupted you. That was disrespectful. In our next group meeting, I'll make sure to paraphrase what you say before I add my contribution. So, I am being very clear on what I will do to change. Now, you can come back and say, that's not sufficient or that's overkill, whatever. But now we can talk about the remedy and how that remedy will help me in the future and help you in the future. So, using the structure, what's so at now? What is a great way of packaging it up? But a good apology recognizes the offending behavior or attitude and the specifics of what you'll do to change. It's so simple but it's so good. Yeah, and in many spontaneous speaking situations like an apology, emotion is playing out. And that's what makes it hard. Like, you're upset with me, I'm feeling bad or maybe I'm feeling indignant. I'm a general interrupture. Right? So, there's a lot of emotion that we have to wait through. And that's why having a structure and some tenants or guide posts through how to get through it, that's what makes it easier. And apologies are free. They are free. That's right. And they can actually, apologies can deepen relationships. Many of us feel like it's atonement for something we've done wrong, which it is. But a good apology can build trust in foster relationships. So, it has a strategic progression that can come from an apology well done and well received. That's an interesting way to look at it. It has a strategic progression. Yeah. A lot of small talk is all about getting to the next level. Right? Small talk is the entry way into deeper talk. Apologies are a way of connecting more. Answering questions are a way of demonstrating similarity and collaboration. These all have meta strategic goals on the other end of them. And is the strategic goal that once you guys know each other better and you develop trust, you can together do better, bigger, more important things. Absolutely. That's exactly right. Communication is a, the word communication means to make common. And as we make things more common through connection, through collaboration, we build trust. And that allows us to feel more comfortable to advance more ideas. So, it's all a progression. Yeah. I think apologies are so underrated. Like the one that Jean's about to give me. I'm just kidding. Yeah. I think it's a really important part of building trust, especially in business and in personal relationships too. Because the person who is doing the apologizing has to introspect and understand how their actions affected the other person and communicate that. And the other person needs to be open to hearing it as well. So a lot of business relationships I think are deepened because of a simple apology. Absolutely. And if you are running a business, you want people to be trying new things and testing new things out. And when that happens, things break and issues come up. And the ability to apologize is really important. And that's a good sign that you are actually being creative, challenging, growing. But friction comes from that. And apologies are a way to reset and move forward. Yes. And people aren't, we're not taught how to do this. No, we're not. No, not at all. And I think it's important to incumbent on all leaders to when they make mistakes, to apologize and to reward others who apologize as well. I'm really glad we talked about this topic because a lot of times you say on tiger sisters you talk about money, power, and love. And apologies is something that runs again and calls all those. It certainly does. It connects. Yeah. And can connect them together. Okay, Matt. So now we've talked a lot about how to talk to anyone. The other category I want to get into is what about applying this to networking? Right. Cause networking is kind of this like almost like boogie man that people are always talking about. People are like, you have to network. You have to network. But how do you network? And what is the difference between everything we talked about before and networking? They're definitely related. When networking, we need to be a little strategic. So a few things I would suggest. One, have a clear goal, what you're trying to achieve. And to me, a goal has three parts, information, emotion, and action. What's the information I want to get across? And what's the information I want to get it from people? Be specific on that. How do I want people to feel as part of the interaction they have with me? Do I want them excited, curious, motivated? And what is the emotional tone I want of my messages? Is it one of urgency or is it one of collaboration? And then is there something specific I want? Is that I want a LinkedIn connection? Do I want somebody to be willing to be a reference for me? Be very specific. That helps you focus. A lot of people go into networking situations and they're unfocused and I did a work to them. Now, I don't know. Having a goal helps you focus and assess your success. Second, it's about reconnaissance, reflection, and research. If I'm going into a networking situation, I should think about it. Who am I meeting with? What is their background? What are some of the issues, challenges, questions that they could help me with? So looking them up on LinkedIn, talking to others who know them, reading what they've written, listening to podcasts, they've been on whatever. Do the reconnaissance, reflection, and research to help you target. And then, when you go in the moment, keep that in the back of your mind, but be fully present. If I don't know if you've ever been in this situation where somebody comes out and they have their agenda, it's like boom, boom, boom, boom, that can be very off-putting. If you want me to be a mentor, if you want me to help you, and you come in hot and have all these things, that's going to turn me off. So, have that in the back of your mind, have that be your fundamental orientation, but then just connect with the person. And then take stock of it. And after the event, connect with people. Think them. Take a moment to express gratitude. It feels awkward, but it actually helps you be more memorable and it helps you stand out. I can imagine a lot of people come up to you wanting to connect. You've got to think about, who are the ones that stick out most to you? It's the ones who are gracious. It's the ones who follow up. It's the ones who've spent time thinking about what you have done and accomplished and connected to what they're asking for. So, just being strategic about it can really help them. I think a lot of Gen Z people call this business charisma. Yeah. And I think there really is a science and an art to networking and in part of the small talk and asking the questions, making the person feel heard, but then also going in, having in ask yourself. A lot of times we're thrown into networking situations. Maybe we're not able to do the reconnaissance or the LinkedIn research ahead of time, but somewhere in the conversation, like what does winning look like for me and how can I also help the person who I'm talking to as well? That second part really important. It's not just me asking you for something. There's some value to you to the other person that we need to really think about. That other focus is important in all communication. The success of communication is not just getting information out. It's making sure the other person receives it. So being other focus audience centric is critical in all communication. So Matt, a lot of our communication nowadays, I guess since COVID or the pandemic has been not in person. It's been virtual. There are some tips that you have for virtual communication and coming across as authentic and yourself. So it's harder to connect when there's a camera between you and your audience. And there's some things that we need to do to help ourselves. In terms of content, the content has to be completely relevant and salient to the other person. We pay attention to what's relevant to us. Attention is the most precious commodity we have in the world today. And if I don't get your attention and make it relevant to you, that's a problem. And when there's a screen in between us and the other person on the other end, it could be doing their email or checking their Instagram. I really have to make it salient and relevant. When it comes to our presence, three things I suggest. One, I want people to pull their shoulder blades down and fill half the screen with their bodies. Many of us sit so far away from the camera, we look like the constellation in the sky. We like to see people's faces. So here's a really simple hack at silly, but before you join Zoom team, Meet WebEx, it will always show you a image and then you click join. That's where we make sure there's nothing in our teeth and our hair looks good. Before you click join, anybody sees you. You put four fingers on your head and you have four fingers of space between the top of your head and the top of your box. If you're doing this, you're sitting way too far away. So it's a great way to measure. So fill half the screen. Second, raise the camera up. Many of us are on laptops and tablets, so the angle is like this. Nobody looks good from that angle. Raise, get a box, a book, a stand, raise it up. So when I look, I can look straight at the camera because looking at the camera signals I'm speaking to you. If I look at your little image, if your video is playing, then it actually looks like I'm looking at your shoes from your perspective. So look at the camera and then finally get good lighting. You as creators know the value of lighting. Most people on these virtual calls look like they're in the witness protection program, sitting in the dark. So I tell my students and I tell the people like coach, I say, if you don't know how to get good lighting, find a teenager. They've cracked the code. They know how to do it. And then the last thing, this is based on research that came out relatively recently, your background matters a lot. We have three choices. Reality, an image, or that blurry background. What this research shows is that the blurry background, people actually think you're hiding something. And you probably are. But we want to avoid that. So either put an image or tidy up a background behind you. We don't want the environment to get people doubting us just because we've got that blurred out background. So very simple things you can do to come off as more confident. If your content is salient relevant to be more connected. I love that. Wow. I have to try that next time. I have to make sure four fingers. Four fingers makes a big difference. Yeah. I actually exclusively use the blur background. All right. Yikes. Put your wonderful technicist logo behind you. Totally. True. Awesome. Well, thank you Matt so much for sitting down with us in this conversation. We learned a lot. To learn so much. I'm like, wow, can we do this every week? Yeah. I would be honored to spend more time with all of you. I'm glad you took value. Thank you. So everyone listening or watching, where can they find your socials and find out more about your content? Excellent. Thank you for asking. So fastersmarter.io will take you to all things Think Fast Talk Smart. You can check out my website, madabrahems.com. LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok. Just search Think Fast Talk Smart. You'll find us there. Incredible. Well, thank you for being with us. Thank you. And thank you for the opportunity. It was fun.