The 0 to 8 Figure Playbook

If you're quite literally starting at zero, I think you just focus on making a diverse range of creative that is messaging to these different types of people as we talked about, load it into one campaign and allow meta to dictate where the spend is going to go. Because when you're quite literally at zero, and I know that's not where most people listening to this are, when you're quite literally at zero, you need to signal. To Brad's point, you know, spend is a good indicator, but another indicator when you're early on is just looking at Facebook ad comments and Instagram ad comments. Seen what people are actually saying to the different like headlines, different personas that you might be targeting in this creative, because you might identify something really interesting in the comments, which then allows you to make a change to your website. Like for us, we started with these socks. We had one style of them, and I'm like, I don't know who's actually going to end up buying this, but we're going to try to sell it to a little bit of everybody. And what actually happened first was that we were starting at Facebook ad comments of people in the midway saying like, all these would be great for hunting. And I never thought, oh, we'd sell these socks to hunting or like, you know, that category never really stood out to me. And that's when we started making ads that that called out that, you know, persona. And that's where we like actually caught fire in the first year. One piece that goes into all of these ideas is offer optimization strategy. And, you know, that can go across so much of it, and is very ignored by so many people. Obviously, you've done a ton of offer testing, Zach, I think that's something that you do incredibly well. What are the keys that you wish would be out there that people don't talk about when it comes to offers? So, and now let's take a listen to the scalability school podcast. Okay, and welcome to episode eight, the zero to eight, zero dollar to eight figure playbook. Here we are Brad and I Zach's coming on. This is second. Brad always good to be right here, my friend. Likewise zero to zero to eight figures for the for the episode number eight. That's right. Exactly. And really what we're going through today is essentially we get we kind of talk through a lot of questions we've been getting from listeners. By the way, thank you for those of you who listen and share it with friends. Obviously, our listens are exploding into the tens at this point. So thank you. And we wanted, we get these questions essentially like, how do you put all this together, talking about a lot of pieces, talking about a lot of different tactics. And what are the things that you can do and like what's a playbook that we can run and what's the playbook that you guys run, because there's been enough consistency in terms of the performance that you had over time. And so that's really what we're going through today is like this is what the playbook looks like. And I'm not sure this might be two episodes. The one part one and a part two. We're going to see how how we get through it. But that's where we that's where we are for right now. So let's go ahead and get started on the playbook itself. As we talk about the part one, start wide strategy. Brad, this is what you went through. You said a great example is loop your plugs. So you start wide and then eventually you can scale wide casting a wide net. What goes into this like start wide strategy in your mind? Yeah. So I'll back up one step. I think what's what's interesting is we kind of have gone into, I think each of these steps over the last several episodes. I don't know if we missed any. I think we've gone through most of these. And so you can we might not go super deep into each one specifically, but obviously you can refer back to previous episodes and go a little bit deeper. And if you have any questions, you can always DM us on Twitter. We love that too. But starting wide is really all about like, so if you if you everybody here for the most part, everybody that's listening is kind of in the seven eight figure range. So they've got they've got at least some success and they're trying to figure out how to how to push it forward a bit more. So at this point, you've probably got your product at least somewhat dialed in and you have a sense of what people like and you're trying to scale it out a little bit further. So starting wide is really all about casting a wide net, particularly with your ad creative and your messaging around what might resonate with people. And the example that you mentioned, loopier plugs, I think is an interesting example of our two reasons. One, they continue to go wide, but gives it gives kind of a great example of how you can actually get to that width as well. And so if you go and you scroll through their ad library, well, you'll see is they sell your plugs, and it's not like earbuds where you can put in music, you know, listen to music, it's literally like noise canceling earbuds. There's nothing being played as far as I understand that. And I don't know where they started, meaning I don't know which which of these wide buckets they started in, but you'll see that they a message for parents, right? Or for sleep or at festivals because you want to drown some of that or people who are just like sensitive to noise generally speaking. And that's what we mean when we say star wide is you want to build a bunch of those pillars and angles that we've talked about in previous episodes where you can message to a lot of different people and you can build out all of those and launch with a handful of ads. And we can talk about maybe quantities of ads and things, that things like that because when you get those up and running and you have all of those different people that you're speaking to in all those different use cases, you can start to get a sense of where where do I go from here? Because if you just took one, it doesn't work, you know, you're kind of out of luck and you got to pivot and go to the next one. So at least starting wide gives you a chance to see when I launch these ads, this is what's resonating with people off the bat and then you can kind of dig into that little further, which is step two, but I'll pause pause there. Talking about that, I think one of the things is in the old time that a lot of meta advertisers specifically have came up through was that you basically run your ads to you build a general ad or a bunch of ads that are talking about your product and then you put those via different like targeting to the audiences you're trying to speak to. And this is obviously like in the new model where all of us live, right, which is you're building the creative to speak to those particular people right away, which I think is just like worth calling out because that's a different way a lot of people think about this. One thing I'm wondering in your senses, because when I've talked about this before, the number one thing I hear is like, well, how do I, if I don't have a ton of budget, as I'm building it from zero dollars to a lower budget, to 5,000 a month, to 10,000 a month, how do I start to do this testing in terms of going wide better? Because I think what ends up happening is a lot of people have done two of these, okay, and persona expansion is not necessarily something that's gone. They haven't tried it at all and they've maybe listened to the earlier episode and you talked about it, but they've started with like two of them. So how do you start to test this from a budgetary standpoint in your, in your, yeah, I think if you're graded, I'm glad you kind of talked about the tactical setup, because I think it's a really important point. Because when you're quite literally at zero, and I know that that's not where most people listening to this are, when you're quite literally at zero, you need to, you need to signal. And even if it's not going to be the long term thing, it's like, you can't, you can't get to the long term thing if you have no cash in your pocket to get to the long term thing. So sometimes you just have to start with with what you see is getting some spent and I think getting some spend is important because if you launch that, so make all of this creative, load up a CBO, lowest cost, cost caps, whatever, load it in there and see what meta spends towards. Even if it's not performing super profitably off the bat, spend is probably the thing to lean into. I know we've mentioned this idea of spending velocity recently going a bit, but that should give you a sense of where you should be then focusing your attention from there because the meta is telling you people are at least responding to this in some kind of way. They're clicking through. Maybe they're not converting quite yet, but that yeah, from a very simple zero to one perspective, load into one CBO and just started all there. I don't think it makes sense to be splitting up your budgets across five different campaigns, across five different personas. And I also think you should just use broad targeting. Like, I don't think you need to have coach your targeting. You don't have to do it too much. Yeah, I mean, Brett, so Zach, like from when I go to Foxville founders meetups, I meet people and I know this isn't too inflate or you go, this is a real thing. He will say, dude, I'm trying to do what Zach Stuck's doing. I'm building the holding company. I've got D to C brand. I have an agency to draw. And a question that commonly comes across is, how does he, how is like the things that he touches so successful so quickly? So how do you think about this in terms of like the step one in terms of the zero to eight for your playbook? Like talking about step one, starting wide, and you can get into other stuff too, but like what are the pieces that you think about with this? Because I think a lot of people are really curious about this, including. Yeah, I mean, the first hack to all this is that I invented my own time zone, which is the ST. So I can show up, you know, 10 minutes late. So our podcast recordings and my podcast partners don't absolutely. That's a huge unlock. That's a big unlock. Yeah, I mean, so we'll start there. Riley at Homestead knows all about ZST. The team at Easy Street knows all about ZST as well. So no, I think in all seriousness, the reality is, you know, we take a lot of shots like that starting wide to try and figure out like just get a taste of what consumers might be interested in, right? So if it's from anything from like a health and wellness brand, all the way to an apparel brand to like a home goods brand that we owned, I mean, we started with making a ton of static ads in Facebook. That's like the easiest place to start driving traffic to the website, usually to start. And just seeing what people react to, right? And I think to Brad's point, you know, spend is a good indicator, but another indicator when you're early on is just looking at Facebook ad comments and Instagram ad comments. Seeing what people are actually saying to the different like headlines, different personas that you might be targeting in this creative, because you might identify something really interesting in the comments, which then allows you to make it changed to your website like for us. I mean, I've talked about this on many podcasts in the past for Hala, like we started with these socks. We had one style of them. And I'm like, I don't know who's actually gonna end up buying this, but we're gonna try to sell it to a little bit of everybody. And what actually happened first was that we were starting at Facebook [BLANK_AUDIO] comments of people in the middle of the same like all these would be great for hunting. So I'm in an active reds point like you kind of just have to study all of like the human interaction of the initial ads. And for us like that's why I think a lot of people don't choose to do that. They just look in the ad account and like these ads aren't working. Like you have to dig into those things that are kind of the fundamentals, which is just like, what are people saying about the ads? Where are people saying in the first customer reviews? Like what are the things that they might be saying even in post purchase of why they're buying that might allow you to like then find a big unlock to just double down. So I'd say like if there's anything that we do in the portfolio brands and even with some of our clients that we've had like some real success with is just like digging into that initial data as much as we can to try and figure out where there might be a place to double down. So that's to me is usually like the starting point. I mean it's interesting. And in terms of the starting why I don't mean next question I want to get into is, you know, I would say common mistakes that are made in this one within the first step. Common mistake always is trying to do too much right off I mean I've seen that a hundred times or as I'm sure you guys have or like I literally audit in the count of the days like, oh we haven't had any winnings and it may running for two weeks at a hundred dollar a budget and there's 15 periods. Now it's like how are you supposed to have any idea, you know, it's like nobody like the financial side of it is like it's always my opinion on how you guys feel like better to spend more in a shorter period of time even if you can rather than try to spread it out. What are other, do you, I mean I would much think about that or like what are other common mistakes you guys see. I'm sure Brad probably does this too. I know Brad's more of like a cost control type of person so try to use like if there's interaction happening then medical spend more. Usually for us when we start we're running those costs and we're trying to gas as much budget as we can right away to learn quicker because you know if you're seeing if meta-scenes of signal in a 24 hour period it will start to move spend like pretty quickly over to a specific ad. I think this is a point we've maybe made it like previous episodes about it's super overwhelming. Everyone talks about the million things you need to do right you need to do all this crazy stuff on retention you need to do landing pages you need to do everything. I mean I truly think until you're at three four or five hundred thousand dollars a month in revenue just pushing traffic to your website is totally fine. I think that you can get a lot more unlocks in trying to figure out like on the ad front of who is actually buying your stuff and what they're resonating with. I mean this is where you know the creative diversification stuff starts to come to play. I know Brad like you had some thoughts on that but to me I mean we launched you know we've launched three brands and we bought three brands at EasyStraight over the last three years and of the ones that we've launched I mean it's it's starting wide open. We don't know what headline is going to resonate we don't know what pain point is going to resonate even if we have like a super niche single skew product we're not sure what is actually going to click and I think that that only can happen really easily in in ad creative so not worrying about oh I need to do landing pages right away oh I need to do like all this crazy email and SMS flow stuff right away like I think really it comes down to just the fundamentals of trying to figure out why people might buy your products and what starts to click and like what actually start to build momentum. Yeah I agree I just wanted to add like two tactical things because you just actually mentioning some really tactical things I wanted to add two tactical things that you can do. One is like along with the comments reviews and feedback you can add post purchase service and just like ask like how do you intend to use this product or you can say and leave it open ended or we have a couple clients where maybe they sell like like a protein bar. So how do you plan to use this? Is it a mural placement? Is it is it a snack? Is it a pre-workout a post workout and then you can start to see how they're actually going to plan to use it and then you can make creative that speaks with the terminology that they're using. Oh you plan to use it as a snack right are you mom and you need like you're too busy to like make a meal like and then you can dig it in that a little bit deeper. The other tactical thing I'll mention is I'll give this away for Pantyway that DMs me on Twitter if you're curious. I have a deep research prompt that we use for all clients that onboard with us and basically you plug in your you I hope it's a really long prompt you plug in a URL and it will do a bunch of it'll run for 20 minutes and it'll give you a bunch of different research on this like pillar and angle thing and it can give you a starting point for like what else the other reasons people might buy your product. Now it helps if you have like some reviews because it'll work that into but if you're like struggling to figure out what does wide mean and like what are examples of how I get there that can be really helpful so I will share that if you do get me an assort. Awesome just a value value add and get probably I mean you probably get tens tens of DMs as well I mean you know like it you know well say me five tens. Yeah you just have to you just have to comment book or scale like that yeah yeah exactly maybe on the YouTube maybe maybe people need to comment on YouTube and over to get this yeah yeah exactly on the one thing sorry the one thing that bread said that I think it's super interesting that people I feel like when they're getting started building brands don't don't do enough is use the terminology that their customers use so I mean you could be selling whatever you can be selling rugs you could be selling supplement you can be selling honestly anything there's definitely terminology that your customers your true customers will use to define your products why they use your products why they like your product that's just wording that you've never used before in marketing or in any of your ads or on your website or anything like that really study that they like go through all of your reviews go through your Facebook comments like dig in because there might be terminology that you're just like missing or you're being too generic about that someone might resonate with if you kind of like niche it in a little bit more to the actual customers yeah to the rest point I think that that's like one big thing you should definitely spend more time and I think we've gone into the the second piece of this as well the playbook which is diversifying winners right talking about creative diversity talking about same message new creative style duplicate top ads with new copy I mean copy is obviously such a huge one that's under under look you know under utilize if you like expand a new personas and demographics we've talked about this a little bit Brad to you in terms of this playbook what does this mean in terms of diversification for you yeah so once you once you start to have like some some spend going spend in performance going into a couple of different angles like usually what it looks like is you have one ad that's spending 90% of your budget in the ad account and you're like okay great I would like to have spend look or be evened out across a few more assets what you can do is then just kind of like obsessively pay attention to that ad how it's getting delivery and then figuring out what you can do to make it different let's say you have a video ad and so I have a david's protein here is like as an example because I think their their library looks really great so we can always talk we can talk about protein bars again for a second so let's say that you know you've got an angle that's working really well that's for you know busy moms it's like okay great how can I and the thing that's working right now is a video that's from from a mom creator that is talking about like how well it works for her great what you can do is you can go to that video and you can figure out how do I iterate this how do I turn it into statics how do I turn it into more moms it's just like taking that and expanding it across a bunch of different things totally I mean like a good example of like let's just take that exact example busy moms right the post of node ad is like a classic I'm like scrolling through david's protein thing we do a ton of it at at hollow like there's such an easy way for a mom to resonate with like a handwritten note on the fridge or on I don't know maybe a bag in the kitchen whatever by like the shoes before you like leave the house I think like just taking those moments of like that customer demo and trying to say like what are things that they would do themselves naturally that they might like actually pay attention to in the feed that just feels more organic versus maybe just like another direct response video that you're basically changing just the three second hook on it that to me I feel like is like a great way like for us we found ways where like if we're actually going to do you know these kind of like written format ads which kind of gets people's attention and they start to like you know they're going to read the text then on this post it note is trying to take that and like apply it to the use case so like where would a you know where would a runner be like potentially looking at a note that they wrote to themselves and is that like on a gym bag is that like in chalk where it's like at like a workout facility or whatever where it's talking about you know whatever do 20 burpees today and then also you know replace your crappy cotton socks with alpaca socks right so I think the biggest thing is like trying to like get into that their their head space and like things that they might pay attention to if like Brad said you like find something that starts to resonate yeah it's not it's like a it's almost a style feeling of what they're doing and it's a so it's not necessarily as much of a diversifying winners is a part of it but it's more about taking already what you know and just taking a deeper and taking it in terms of style in terms of ad type in terms of potentially ad type potentially you know the way it's displayed like talked about so I think that's that's a super interesting one but looking at different headlines urgency curiosity emotional versus logical appeals or I think that's a big part of it when you've seen this not go well before in terms of trying to diversify this what has been the mistake also the one that I've seen right out of the gates and that I talked to founder members a lot about is they take an angle like to an extreme and then double and triple down on it and like don't have enough that they've proven and they're and it's like it is such a niche thing that they think that there's more than that their net scale it might not be an example of this is somebody that was was like doubling down on essentially people that they identified that people was like gum health was an issue it was like a oral care product and they were like oh yeah it's gum health people are really interesting gum health and then like all they did was make all this like scientific looking ad all about gone and that's like where they took this and that and it was and there was no other diversification. Yeah, and it was like, yeah, there was a single where they didn't go. Yeah, it was like the one lit on this and then it was like all in it was like, I understand what you're trying to do. Like what makes sense? But it's like, you also still have to keep that diversification in terms of the message and the type and everything else. I'm not saying that that's not a winning angle, but there's more out, you know, you're gonna kill yourself. I don't know what other first dates you guys see. I mean, like I'll just hit on one real quick. So for Hollow, again, just to like use your own brand example is it's antimicrobial, right? It's like a natural fiber. So you can talk about like the fact that your socks won't stink anymore. No one really gives a shit about that. Like we've tried it, maybe it resonated in one hook and then it's like very easy for you to tell your team or to go tell your agency and be like, hey, go make more ads about this and try to like run it as hard as you can. I think like unless one absolutely pops off as far as like a headline or a hook or some type of like new persona that you're going after, yeah, be cautious to like double down too fast or over index. Like definitely over indexing is like a could be a huge pain point. We've had, we've seen that with homestead clients in the past similar to you, Andrew, where they have one, you know, they're a bag that sells to a specific like customer and that's all that they stick to and it's like, okay, well, you might have tapped everyone in that niche customer now that has the ability to spend hundreds of dollars on this like specific type of bag. You need to think broader than that. So yeah, definitely have seen it on both sides. Yeah, I would just add, I think if I had to pick one thing and Andrew, I think this is kind of what you're alluding to in a way, is like I think people think probably due to the chatter on Twitter, but they think it's just like diversity equals volume and all of a sudden you, you sub, it's not actually diverse. It's not actually looks different. Like all of a sudden, you look back and you zoom out and you're looking at a figment board of everything you've created. You're like, this all looks the same, but we didn't, we didn't actually change anything here. It's like, we changed the headline because we thought that that's what it meant to create diverse creative and it's like, holy shit, we actually haven't, we actually haven't achieved that because we just, we just wanted to go and achieve this volume goal of doing more, more, more. Yeah, I mean, Brad, seeing the inside of like, we did this exactly. Like we hit a point with what of our new brands were, we got an obsession of like hiring offshore creatives to just like make a ton of statics for us and got to the point where we were making like 400 statics a week and it's just like, you can't, they're not unique enough. Like they were, they were all starting to look the same and also just trying to launch that many assets like in a period of time depending on your spend threshold can start to break. So yeah, it's definitely about like quality of swing over crazy volume and like different swing as Brad saying. So then, you know, the ads don't look the same. David's protein, great example of that. Go check out their Facebook ad library. They've got a ton of diversity in their, their account. I think looking at the third part of this playbook, strategic white list thing, obviously, is something we've talked about before. I think to get into this right, this is targeting places in your, targeting pages rather in your winning niches, partnering with relevant content creators and collaborating with niche influencers, niche niche, rich, everyone you feel like depending on the day. And I think this is a big one and one that I would say we are all coming around to in the last six or nine months and it particularly in 2025. I feel like this is an unlock that we're all utilizing and last year, this was a little bit of a secret sauce. So strategic white listing, how do you, how's this done well? How do you start to find a few of these folks and how can this be part of the playbook? Yeah, I think that there's, there's, there's different levels to it and we just did, we didn't episode not too long ago all about white listing. It's up, you're looking for more in depth information. I think that's going to be your go to and I will say before we jump into some of the things you can do quickly with with white listing to get that started, the next like several things in my opinion, Zach, I think yours of you disagree with this. Like the next couple things that we'll talk about, like it doesn't have to go in this order, right? Like the once you kind of have the thing, we just need something working and that's the part, the whole point of like starting wide, you don't have to go in this exact order. So just just wanted to call that out. No, it should be it. It's, it's the Brad $500,000 playbook. You can get it today $4,799. And it's one easy thing to end in 97. It's probably going to be paying all the easy payments. So $20,000 mastermind. It's not a proud, Brad, you got to, you got to productize your mind. But no, I understand I totally get to it. It's not, it's not like these can go in any way. I agree with you. I think so. Yeah. So I think with white listing, so there's, there's a couple of different levels to it. I think the easiest thing to do is like, okay, you've got an angle in a pillar, however you want to call it, that's working. And you started to diversify kind of the creative and how it looks within that. What you can do, I think that the easiest way to see if white listing can at least like have some kind of an ad additional volume to your ad account is just like, literally create a page that's like going to chat GBT, give it, give it context about who is responding to your ad right now from a persona and psychographic information. And just say like, I need a Facebook page name to go with this or an Instagram page name. Like, can you give me 10 examples? It's going to give you 10 examples of, I don't know, I'm going to make something up off top of head. It's going to give you 10 examples in your niche and you just grab that plug it into Facebook, give it a make a Facebook page and make, make an Instagram page, ask it to generate a Facebook profile image with that. And then you, you set this page up, you duplicate your top ads that are going to that demo to this page and you see what happens. I think we talked about this on the white listing episode. I mean, did that ripped totally? It doesn't always rip, but it can't. Yeah, you look like we can just give an example, right? Let's say you're like a men's skin care brand, right? Then it's like top gifts for men 20, 25, whatever, right? That's the page name or like men's health tips and tricks, whatever, right? So like you can, you can take that as for GBT's really helpful, but just to give like an example of kind of what we're talking about is something along those lines. And yeah, free to do spin up a page. You don't need like, Sonic, you don't need crazy stuff. You don't need, you know, cover photos, unless you really want to definitely just a profile photo. And yeah, like Brad said, like it's such an easy, I mean, spend an hour on it probably in our reality, but it's an hour task to then see if you can get some more scale. So yeah, we've done this now a handful of times. I think Brad, we want to keep rolling into the next stage. I can kind of talk about the like influencer white list and stuff that we're doing. Yeah. So I think there's, there's kind of like the adjacent one to the niche peg. You can make your own niche page, right? The adjacent thing to that is going to like an advertorial site that maybe kind of exists in your industry. I think the quality edit is one that I was actually talking about with somebody on our team today. Like they ritual is perpetually using the quality edit. That's like an adjacent one, but that is one where you have to pay for them for access. That's that's that's way more involved. Just duplicate make your own niche page of your need to for the starting. The next kind of next step of this is like actually going to a content creator or an influencer, like a human being as opposed to like a niche page that I'm working with them. And there's different levels to this, whether it's a content creator that has essentially no following. There's micro micro influencers all the way up through like mega folks. That's that I think that's where you have a lot a lot more experience. So I'll let you jump. Yeah. I mean, we tried, we tried kind of a handful of them, right? Like we tried the one to 10,000 follower person, the 10 to 100,000. And then we've also now more recently been trying the like 300,000 to a million five follower influencer creator, right? We, I don't know how much detail we wanted to send to a previous episode. But if you haven't listened to that, basically the playbook that we're doing now is we're building a relationship with this person where we're actually taking the time to get their contact information, reach out to them, send them product, just tell them that we're interested in a partnership with them in the future and just see if they want to, you know, get free product and see if they like it. It's usually where we start. So it's a slower process this way than the micro or whatever influencer they try out product. Then usually what we're doing is we're signing like a 60 day contract with this individual where they have 30 days to shoot content and then we receive it, edit it, and then 30 days to launch those ads. Based on that 30 day window, then we can go into a month month contract or a longer term contract with these people. We have found that, you know, for Hollow and some of our other brands, like now we're spending 30 to $50,000 a month on just like these contracts because this is like a great way to add diversification to like your ad account of of these creators that are really good at making content and running white listing ads with their handles of the content that they shoot. One of the like the bigger hacks though with this is making sure that you're not just giving every one of these partners the same brief. So it's like writing a brief specific to each one. Now this is where like the amount of work starts to pick up and this is where I'd say like if you're doing a million plus in revenue, this is where you can probably start to like tap into this part of the playbook, a million plus in revenue per month. This is where like we have found to get incremental scale. So like there's definitely been some months where this is like 50% of our ad spend onto like all the AI stuff videos that we do, all the internal editing videos that we do, all the statics that we produce internally is this white listing ads that with these influencers. I've seen some brands like spend a million dollars a month behind like an absolute knockout partner like this. So I mean it's definitely something to look into once you're spending you know a few hundred thousand dollars a month on that matter when you're trying to feel like you're tapping up against you know not being able to spend more money. This is like a great a great process. I think that's all super helpful again. Yeah a lot of detail in the episode that we reported about it, but I appreciate going through the playbook again. It's useful to hear. I think across those brands that are doing well and the agencies that represent those brands and the foundation I've received for this time and time again that this is like a huge part of the reason why they're successful is they have developed and have a longer term vision with white listing partners which is huge and they've also done what you talked about beginning of like their own thing to sub-dickery. One of them was was I think it was a basic just called like make your face feel good. And I was like, that's a good year right there. And I probably picked looking. So going into talking about landing page optimization, how often do you think when you start to take winning creatives, personas, and then building landing pages that speak to those particular demographics, how much does that increase performance that you've seen? It seems to be a common, I mean, because I will say that the times that we've done this and I've seen other people do this, it's like easily an increase in like 20% in terms of performance overall, in terms of decrease in pack or whatever metric you're looking at. Like there seems to be at least a 20, like it's not nothing at my point. So I'm curious what you think about it and what are the keys of landing page optimization as part of the playbook? Yeah. Before I say that, just one more step back, it's like each, each kind of option in year two. And like I know I just said that it's not sequential, but I think the point of this episode generally speaking is like once you have something working, you can just like look back on this, take your notes, and it's like, great, something's working. What am I supposed to do next? You just go pick one of these things and like it should be thoughtful, right? You should be intentional with what you're doing. But like the point here is, okay, when you feel stuck and you have some you keep running the ad budget and efficiency just drops, and you can come back to this checklist, you say, shit, I haven't tried that yet. I should go do that with intentionality. So to your point on the fun enough, we in the last week, we've had a really fun win with with landing page tests. So we'll just say we have a product going to an older demo. And we're straight up sending it to the PDP, founder, founder, founder video, talking about why, why they created it and the reasons kind of explaining the product, fed up with all the other options that existed out there. But it was going to the PDP, which worked fine. And this is what I kind of meant where you could just have to get something working. It was working really really well. But we took that video and we just like, we looked at where's the spend going on a demographic perspective. Okay, women, it's going primarily 45 and up. Okay, great. Now we know a little bit more about them. What a comment say does X point earlier? What do the reviews say? What is the feedback then to the customer service team? We start to develop an idea of like what really matters to these individuals. And then we take that, we turn it into a five reasons why just a quick listicle page. Primarily because it doesn't require a lot of dead time, which I think we just talked about with with Ryan Doney on, I think that's literally the last episode. It's just like super easy, very copy, heavy, couple of images you can throw in there. And you can have something up and running in in no time. We took all the learnings from that and we just put together five reasons why in order of like the volume that these things were coming up. Meaning like these issues popped up. The more the issue popped up, the higher was on the landing page basically. Since we launched that, like I think we're like two weeks into this, the performance on the efficiency is double, relies literally two times time. Now I wouldn't expect it to double every time you do this because there's a couple of things that can happen. One, landing page is enable more volume. So your efficiency doesn't actually necessarily change. You're just able to spend more because you're kind of spending into it and two, you know, or just like generally speaking, I or you just get more efficiency, which eventually leads to the point of role in there. And so that's what I'm saying. And the way that we launched it actually was we didn't launch like a post click experience, which I'm pretty sure in that episode, we were all like you should probably launch a post click experience split test. I just duplicated the top ad and flipped the destination. And basically what happened in meta is day one original add to the PDP spent way more than they closed. Then they closed, then they close and day five it flipped. And now it's not even close. It's all this landing page and still holding on efficiency and still cranking. And I just keep adding budget to it. So that's it. That's, yeah, that's my quick, my quick example of what I've seen recently. It's nice. I mean, it's nice to listen to a podcast and have something that people can fall on to that gives guaranteed results. You know what I mean? Like that's just so nice. Brad, Brad, James, a name of a podcast. Yeah. Guaranteed success. Yeah. The one thing that I want to add is kind of the counter to what Brad just said, which is hollows, getting the point know where I feel like we tried every landing page possible. That we're only now getting incremental wins off of new landing pages that we test. So I think there's a certain point here where after you've done it, I mean, I think we talked about in the podcast and don't eat like we've launched hundred over 100 landing pages in the last year. After a certain point, like there's a template that works best and there's, you know, a format and there's language that you use that just works the best. So I mean, I think if you haven't run these landing pages yet, it's definitely worth doing. Definitely start with like, you know, kind of what we talked about before. Start wide, figure out who's buying your product, see what pain points in like headlines and hooks are resonating, get more in the creative diversity, then maybe play around with this white listing stuff or move over to a landing page. I think to Brad's point, like these are kind of like the next two things that we start to mess around with. But there is definitely a point of like diminishing returns. You're not going to get this like double row as every single time you launch a landing page, especially if you've already tested different formats, variants, A/B tests of what section show first, all that good stuff. So I mean, I think just to like bring it back to reality on that other side of it is like there will be a point where you can't push it much more and then you lean back into the ad creative stuff and say, okay, well, what more can I go do there? Yeah, I mean, I think one piece that goes into all of these ideas is offer optimization strategy. And you know, that can go across so much of it and is very ignored by so many people. So, yeah, I mean, so what are the pieces of it? I mean, it first starts with a math, right? Like if the math isn't mathing, like it's never going to work for you. So, I mean, I say that when it comes to like, you know, hey, we're going to offer a discount offer, a dollar off, we're going to test that or hey, we're going to do a free gift of the purchase. What does that actually mean to like your margin? And what does that mean to wear performance test to get to for it actually to back out? Even with bundling. So like for hollow, great example, started adding bundles and increased AOV up with that increased AOV. We were able to spend more into our CPA and it worked out and it backed out and it was beneficial to us. But I think just starting with the math of understanding, hey, I'm going to to Brad's point and like one of our previous episodes, I'm going to make this like starter pack or whatever variety pack and then we're going to try and sell two of them before we give a bigger discount. Like you have to really do the math on what is the cost of delivery, like the true landing cost of that product at the customer's door with the discount in mind before you actually figure out then, okay, like is this offer going to make sense for my business or not? So that's usually where we start. So internally, you know, if we want to change an offer for hollow or one of our other brands, is we build on a model, build on a financial model, what is the cost of goods, what is the cost of delivery, hey, if we add more products to it, does that mean our shipping cost goes up or a pick pack at our 3PL goes up? Yes. So we have to factor that in. Then we start to figure out, okay, here's our target range CPA that we can spend into this new offer, which may mean if we can push up AOV 20 bucks, that may mean we can spend another $10 on cost of acquisition. If we know there are CPC or cost of traffic and conversion rate or kind of at these baseline numbers, I know that like I can maybe spend I can get four more clicks and get the same conversion rate and it's still going to back out because that's that's where like the actual like, you know, cost of traffic versus conversion rate backs into your CPA. So I mean, I think starting with the math, the figuring out, okay, if I roll out a new offer, what could that do? What will that change my AOV to and then based on that AOV, what can I afford from a cost of traffic or conversion rate standpoint of like maybe my cost traffic can go up, my conversion can come down or the inverse or the opposite or whatever. I think you have to take any consideration that math before you pick your offer, but that's what a lot of people don't do and that's why they're like afraid to do it because some people might say, hey, I can't offer 40% offer, I can't offer 30% 20 is my max. Well, if you push up AOV and you get people to spend twice as much as they are now, even after discount, even after cost of delivery, your contribution margin like that you're able to produce off of like your CPA not increasing because conversion rate stays flat, cost of traffic stays flat because buy or intent goes up with a better offer. That's where like the real wins can start to be unlocked. So I say when it comes to offer optimization strategy start with a math and then figure out how you can roll it out and what it can look like on your site and on your land, there's no ads. Do you think when you with all, you know, with all these options, right, the idea in theory is, you know, you kind of have something working, you're maybe hitting your head against the glass ceiling and all these things are. Checkless options or OK, if I look back and I pick one of these picking offer that's like maybe going to help me break through the glass ceiling is that like is that like, is that you totally yeah, so like, for example, for hollow, we were, you know, we were trying to like triple last year or triple last year, double this year to do that. I'm like, OK, I need to be able to likely because we're going to double our spend we're going to go from spending, you know, 7 million total advertising last year to like 15 to 20 million this year, likely the efficiency of that advertising spend is going to go down in theory, because those numbers are starting to get pretty big. I then need to find a way where my CPA can go up in the math still makes sense. So I basically said, OK, if my CPA is going to go up from 50 bucks to 75 dollars and a new customer acquisition cost. How can I make those 25 dollars back up and for us because it's like more of a first time purchase, not a crazy LTV play for us, we're trying to be profitable and first person, I have to push my a ov up even more. So that's where I'm basically saying, OK, maybe we're doing bundles of like an eight pair of socks right now and you know, this can be relevant to anything t shirts, supplements, whatever, if I'm selling one, I could sell three. So we basically said, hey, instead of selling eight on average in our bundles, let's push up to 12 and like let's not change the discount and that that in theory just pushed up a ov and maintain our margin profile that we wanted to be at. And you know, that's what gives gave us that little extra room to spend $25 more and still be at the same profit on first purchase. So to me, that's kind of like it comes either when you're stocking, you're not able to push through or when you're really trying to scale up and you know with more scale that your CPA is likely gonna go up. So that's kind of like the two points where we start to figure out, okay, what's a change in offer that could maybe help fix this. - So let me give you a scenario that was recently presented to me and see what you think and reference to offer and in sort of all the things we've talked about, this particular company, or this particular company that have one, they have a number of products that they can give three products, but they have basically one bundle that they push of, it's men's skincare. And it comes with all three products and there's not been any innovation necessarily in the offer because it's the same products and there hasn't been necessarily any innovation in the landing pages. They're sending everything to the landing page for that particular bundle. They don't have the inventory or the money to go out and like, I mean, I think they're maybe thinking about developing new products, but where do they go? Like what, what are some, I mean, obviously, I have ideas, but like what do you guys think in terms of where they could go? 'Cause I think a lot of folks get into that and it's like, yeah, I mean, how do they, how do they make that offer more interesting? 'Cause like they don't have the money to go develop a brand new product or bundle it differently. Like it's not like you got like five face washes or whatever, it's like you guys need one. I'm a guy, so I'm gonna use like one ever again, maybe. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's a good one. That's like a tough scenario to try and crack. So there's two things I think of right away. One is an accessory product that can cost less than a dollar that they can source from overseas that can add 10 to $12 in value to their overall bundle that might give allow them to push up the price of their bundle without having to like, push up the price of their like face wash or moisturizer, whatever else they're selling. So to me, that's like, maybe it's like a scrub brush or something for like their skin or whatever. It's like, you use this every day before you wash your face and it's like this extra tool that's not necessary to get like the best experience. If you can kind of sell that into it, like that's a good option. I've seen a lot of brands where they've added this like one off accessory literally to source from overseas is like $12, but retail value on it's like $15. It'll push up AOV $15. So that's one that I'm looking to if I'm this company, for example, the other one, which is kind of an obvious one, it's just increase the price. Like try to find a way to increase the price where you can make the offer seem more compelling. So like, let's say they're selling this bundle, I just like Google men's skincare bundles for $40, $50, I'm not sure what they're pricing it up. What I would try to do is try to find a way to, on the front end, like through a listicle or a landing page educate why our product is more premium than anything else that's out on the market. So that someone that's coming in from a listicle landing page to a product page, which is likely this like bundle page is already anticipating this being a more premium product. So that way when the price is slightly higher, they have less of a reaction to it. So I think that's a lot of brands like don't do that enough is like talk about how premium things are and use words like that. Now, the thing that you can do with that is like, you can always price things up in fine ways to discount them down with subscription. So if I'm these guys, I'm doing one of two things. If I'm focused on one-time purchase, I'm trying to find like this accessory product that's super cheap to source and ease to source and bring it in and add an extra $15, $20 to the AOV of this bundle and explain why it's necessary to get the best experience of the product. Or be push the price of the one-time purchase up very high, significant like much higher, discount down on sub-in-said. Maybe their CPA doesn't change, but now they're getting much more subscription revenue. So I mean, I'm probably going like one of those two options. The price increase thing is like another thing that's kind of like in the middle. We definitely found like at at home said we had a client that was selling a product for like $150. We just increase it to $250 one day on a shoppable landing page, conversion rate didn't change. So I think like if you're acquiring and you're trying to scale, and 90% of your customers are new, they don't know what your product is priced at. They don't know what it was priced at. You can take those shots at gold to see like, hey, what happens if I add another $100 this price? I mean, my conversion rate could cut in half and it could still back out if my cost of traffic stays the same. So those are kind of the three. - Brad, I know you have to go by the way. So the Zach and I will close it out Brad. I don't, we want you to stay alive and not have your wife kill me. - Oh, it's okay, I can hang time for a little bit. We're good. - Okay, I'll just wrap it up here then. All right, it's my collapse of fingers. - Super appreciated, good ideas. I mean, I think it's kind of a practicality, right? And if you have more questions like this, always feel free to direct message to guys or email me and your actualdigital.com. I will just say that I have only received messages from SAS vendors. I've never received a question actually from the podcast, which is good and bad, you know. It could be that we're explaining things well or they think I'm a total loser or maybe it's both. So who knows, but anyway, look, you can always reach me at www.interfoxleddigital.com or the guys on Twitter. I think super interesting to go through. Guys, anything else in running through the playbook that we want to make sure that we're mentioning? - I think just like this is outside of starting wide. So I think that's kind of inescapable. I think you kind of need to do that unless you have a really strong and idea of what's going to work. I think this, again, it's just a checklist of options that you can work through when you're feeling stuck. And this was like, this was inspired for me at least by like trying to build an internal tool for our team where it's like when you're hitting the ceiling and you're not sure what to do next or things aren't looking like they're going in the right direction, go to the checklist and then think about it. Just like stare at it for a little bit, pick an option, commit to the option, and then roll out a test with that. So yeah, hopefully it's valuable for you all as a resource. Also, I have had people DM me and ask questions. So maybe it is a you thing, I'm not sure. But it's been, but it has been very great and I've really enjoyed answering some of those questions. I think at some point it'd be fun to share some of those anonymously here on an episode. So yeah, Zach, anything from here on? - No, I think it's looking at all five of these things in one tweet would be overwhelming and be like, I don't know where to start. Just chip away at it, right? I think a lot of people try to do it all at once and they kind of half-ass their way through it. Like we've used the word intention on this podcast, they end up all times. Like you have to be intentional to get the results that you want to see. So slowly chip away at them, start wide, then going to create a diversity, then maybe try a white listing page, then maybe try a listicle, then maybe if that's all of those things are not working, then maybe it's your offer. So I think it's just being intentional about what you choose to do versus trying to do a little bit of everything. Let's do a big team and you're a big brand then go for it and do all of these things all at once. But otherwise for the 99% of us out there, just pick one and chip away at it over the course of the week. And likely you'll see some progress. - I will say Brad that one listener sent both of us a direct message and you would already responded to him. And I said, whatever Brad says, he's my guru and then the person just wrote back, "Keehee," which I feel like in the top. - "Keehee" is proper. - So I see you texted us bold or message us bold. "Keehee" Look guys, thanks for being here. And we'll look forward to the next episode. (upbeat music) - The only way that we grow this podcast is by you sharing it with your friends. Honestly, like reviews kind of don't really mean anything too much anymore. They're really meaningful, but they don't do a lot for the growth of the podcast. And so sharing YouTube links, sharing Spotify links, sharing Apple, whatever we call it under the podcast app. Now anything you can share, the better we're going to be. Guys, anything else you want to say on this? - Yeah, please go check us out on YouTube, rack up those views for us. We'd love to see it. And then subscribe. Make sure to subscribe on YouTube as well. And I relentlessly refresh the YouTube comments because it dictates my mental health for the day. So please say something nice about all of us. - Thank you everyone. - Thanks for listening, honestly.