Thailand's lesser visited spots

I absolutely love toxin massage, which is a very northern Thai tradition and it basically it's out, you're going to go, oh that sounds awful, but no, you get hit with a hammer. Okay. Give me out. Give me out. That's not what I expected. So there's like a wooden slate, they put it along the energy lines, which is similar to the Chinese medicine, meridian lines and the idea is that your energy travels along those lines of your body and they put the slate along the place in your shoulder with that energy line. And then they knock it with a hammer, small wooden hammer, it's brilliant. Hello, I'm Bella Tolbert, Marketing Executive at DK, and I'm Rachel Ledler, project head to DK Travel and welcome to where to go where we're on a mission to make every chip extraordinary with the help of global travel experts. Today we are exploring Thailand, Rachel, could you give us a bit of an introduction? I can indeed, located at the beating heart of South East Asia, Thailand is known worldwide for its lush islands, floating markets, ancient temples and gorgeous national parks. Really, it's so country that needs no introduction to be honest, everybody loves Thailand. But today we've got help exploring this beautiful country with returning guest, Lucy Grace. So Lucy Grace is a freelance travel and culture writer who grew up in Malta and the UK. She is since lived in Croatia, India and Thailand, was working for the independent, timeout, lonely planet and eye paper. Welcome, Lucy. Hi. Thanks so much for joining us. So as usual, we will start by learning a little bit more about our guest, Lucy, followed by her all-important recommendations of where to go and inside a knowledge of Thailand. Then we'll hear about how to plan the best possible visit. So, Lucy, you're joining us from Chiang Mai in Northern Thailand. If I'm correct, you've been living in the country, is it three, four years now? It's three and a half, yeah, it's coming up to four years. Three and a half? Coming up to four years in the autumn, it's really flown by. Can you share a few reasons why you love it so much, why you've stayed for so long? Yeah, absolutely. I think specifically Chiang Mai really appeals to me because I've lived in London previously before I moved to Asia six years ago. I was living in London for a really long time, like 15 years, and you get into this headspace that you can't possibly leave because you need live music and you need art galleries and you need all these cultural things. Chiang Mai has all of those things, but on a micro scale, but it's a brilliant city. It's not as hectic as Bangkok or Singapore or any of those other big capitals in Southeast Asia, but has so much fascinating stuff to do and so much cultural stuff that really just keeps me busy. I think that the main thing that really clinched it for me is it's just absolutely surrounded by nature. It's like mountains, waterfalls, you can drive to a waterfall in 10 minutes if you want to go and chill out by waterfall, and it's, yeah, you still get city life here in Chiang Mai, but it's a really peaceful place at the same time, it doesn't feel like a big city. So I've sort of got all of my needs met, basically. You've won the lottery, you've got the best of both worlds. I love it. I really love it. It's away from sitting next to a waterfall, that sounds absolutely idyllic. It's pretty nice, it's pretty nice. I visited Chiang Mai, I think it was maybe about 10 years ago now, and I remember thinking that exact same thing, that I was there with my other half and we really like going hiking, and just like the variety of stuff that you could do within the area was absolutely astounding. And you're right, it's just like so surrounded by these, it's like leafy greenness, it's beautiful, I loved it. Yeah, you've already got mountains or like rice paddies or jungle, it's just like, yeah, big variety of hiking trails, lots of people come here just for the hiking, I think. I'm not, I'm not a gifted hiker, I'm not a natural hiker, but I do. Another of my, I'd, I'd, I'd just give it the old college drive, I like driving motor bikes for places like little villages around and going on day trips, but yeah, hiking is, it's very hot up here, okay? It's not my natural sort of temperature, so that's what I, I'll blame the heat, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not a big hiker. In terms of getting out on your motorbike, is Chiang Mai quite well located for travelling around Thailand? It's well located to travelling around the north, and it's really well located to travel around Asia, like you can get direct flights to Chiang Mai from pretty much, yeah, nearly every Southeast Asian and Asian country you can fly directly to Chiang Mai, can I think of one or two you can't, but getting to the south of Thailand, you can take the train or the bus or fly, I try not to fly intently, the trains are adorable, they're like old, I say old, they're from like the 90s probably, they're like 90s carriages and quite rickety, but they're just so slow, sometimes you're on a train and you're like that old man on a bicycle is going past us, like what's happening here, it's really slow, so it takes 12 hours, it takes 12 hours to get the train to Bangkok, 12 hours to get the bus to Bangkok, and then from Bangkok it's really easy obviously to go to the rest of the south, so it's, I wouldn't say it's like really well located for getting around Thailand, but it's not, it's not hard, and it's quite, I really enjoy the trains, I kind of, I love them, they've got a special place in my heart. I feel like you must have fully shed the London mindset, because if you were to say here that your train was going so slow that someone was cycling fast in the air, oh it would be an absolute nightmare, you've become very zen. Yeah, I did, when I sort of sit, when I was back in the UK a little while ago, I was like, oh I'm going to Scotland, it's only five hours, and people looked at me like, what? I was like, five hours, it's so close. I've got to say, I've got the same attitude, because I live up in Edinburgh and commute down to London, relatively regularly. And yeah, I'm just like, yeah, five hours, that's no problem, that's a relatively short journey. I used to live up in Edinburgh, so that was eight hours, so it's, I remember the trains in, remember getting on the train from Chiang Mai to Bangkok, and I grew, it was just like one of the best experiences on the train that I had, it was a sleeper train, and the beds were super comfortable, and private, and I loved it. It's really popular route, it's really popular route, if you want to do that in peak season, you have to put your tickets and be really on the board, or use an agent to get tickets for it now, because, yeah, come in November, December, it's really hard to get, but at the moment, I'm going to Bangkok in August, so I'm like, oh, I'll just buy it to get, and it's really, it's, I love this time of year, because it's, it's, it's an off season, European, European summer, people don't really come to Thailand much, which is why it's kind of my favourite time to be here, and like he said, it's so scenic, but it's also really comfortable, and I think that sort of sense of, you've actually travelled from one place to another, whereas you can easily just jump on it, I've been playing for one hour, but I like the sense of distance of how far you've actually travelled. Yeah, it's like an experience in itself, the travelling. We all know that Thailand is home to like thousands of incredible islands, so could you recommend any for escaping the crowds, because I know that there are a couple that tend to get a little bit busy. Okay, don't quote me, and be angry if any of these are now crowded, because we've had the white loads, yes, and white loads, fever, and a lot of places that, a lot of islands assault, like, sold out, it's really, it's even going to coast a movie now in August, sold out. Well, I was quite surprised, because I always think of, you know, Thailand being peak season in November, December, January, they do have a microclimate in some of these, the white loads effect is very real, isn't it? I mean, every time they go anywhere, it shoots up like 400% in bookings or something, so. Absolutely, so this is my disclaimer, so I can give you some quiet tips, but if you all get there and they're not quiet anymore, it's my quiet sport not mine. So my first recommendation is Koh Lepere, which is an island, really far south on the Andaman coast, almost near the border of Malaysia, and it's really, it's really great for snorkeling basically. It's one that's just got these really fantastic reefs, the coral that's not too far, and even if you're, a lot of people go there diving, but even if you're not a diver, like, I'm not a diver, not a hike, not a diver, they, I think, I think Koh Lepers nicer to go than the hotel, really, the hotel is so packed now, and just very, just a very idyllic little sort of archipelago that's around Koh Lepere down there, so that's a good one. I love Koh Mac, Koh Mac is east of Bangkok, there's a really big island called Koh Chang, which is the second biggest island in Thailand, which is nice, but if you go east of Koh Chang, Koh Mac, which is sort of near the Cambodian border, is Thailand, kind of like, eco, low carbon island, and it's just lovely, everyone sort of cycles around or has the little motor side, there's no cars, really, if there are sort of vehicles there, electric, electricity powered, and yeah, I like Koh Mac a lot, it's not packed at all, yeah, I say, I say that now, I'm really out for hence of about this, one that I have only been to once, and it's fab is Koh Summit, and it's just south of Pataya, and it's really where Taito is to go, so if you want to have a very, very Thai experience, and all of your food is Thai, you're not probably going to get like Western food, and it's probably not going to really get people speaking much English, but everyone will be Thai, and it's great, and beautiful, and it's ten minutes to get the ferry there, from the mainland, yeah, Koh Summit, so like, that's the kind of, I don't know if I've got any of my Thai friends, we'll listen to this, it'll be like, yeah, it's nice to be on the download, it's only between us, yeah, and then there's a, and then confusingly, there's another island called Koh Chang, so I just mentioned the big Koh Chang that's east of Bangkok, but then there's another Koh Chang that's on the Andaman side north of Puket, and that's really tiny, if you want that kind of like Alex Garland, the beach, like, almost off the grid, practically no electricity, Koh Chang's great, that I just went for a couple of days in March, and then the next one I want to go to is Koh Pratong, which is also just above Puket, and it looks like they've got some really great sort of eco-results coming up, and I mean, I'm just interested in a lot of this culture on the Andaman coast, I want to go research around there. Lovely, some great options there, thank you for revealing your secrets, I could tell that you're apprehensive. I don't, I don't, I don't believe in gatekeeping and I'll share secrets, but I'm just worried that you'll get there in some of the mood busy, anyway, this woman said it was, I mean, yeah, I think listeners will know Thailand is booming right now, but for good reason, it's a beautiful country, and I mean, it's known for its beaches, which are world famous, but obviously it's got a lot of other natural attractions, and as we've already spoken a little bit about you, you don't think you're a great hiker, but I know you like to get out on the outdoors, so tell us a bit about some of these natural attractions that you'd recommend. Yeah, they're really, really surprising, obviously I've mentioned there's lots of portables around Chiang Mai, there's also a lot of hot springs across Thailand, if you're a hot springs lover, there's loads around Chiang Mai, and further in the northwest in Mayhamsung, there's loads of hot springs near Krabi, I love that, I go hot spring hunting, and then my favorite place in Thailand is Khao Sok National Park, and I'm going to mispronounce this, I'm quite sure, but it's just the most phenomenal lake, Chiang Lan Lake, and have you ever seen pictures of Halong Bay, where it's just like the Bay with all the rock formations, it looks a lot like that, but it's a large lake, it's much quieter than Halong Bay, because you can't get those big ships in there, because it's a lake, and you can stay on floating bungalows, or you can stay on some of the resorts in the park, and then they'll take you on a day trip to the lake, but it's just so pretty, like the sort of long tail boat that took me to my floating bungalow, I went for my birthday last year, and I was just like, just gobsmacks, just like where is this, this is amazing, every time anyone comes to Thailand and I'm like, right, we're going back to Khao Sok, we have Khao Sok National Park, I'm really sold on it, it's fantastic, and then I'm really like, I really like Khao Yai National Park, which is North East of Bangkok, it's just really stunning, a great month for hiking, loads of like waterfalls and whatnot, but there's also this new outdoor, I guess, sculpture-esque park called Khao Yai Art Forest, which is just awesome, they just opened this year, so if you want to, if you're someone that likes cultural things and nature, it's a really nice, it's a really nice combo, and then I have to fly the flag for Dui Inthanon, which is Thailand's highest mountain, and it's not far from Chiang Yai, it's about 45 minutes south of here, 2565 meters high, and it's the highest peak, so it's really cold up there, even if it's quite warm and humid down on Chiang Mai level, sort of drive down to Dui Inthanon, and I should have brought more clothes, so it's really cold. When we were away in Thailand previously, we went to Khao Sok, and I was absolutely much like yourself, just like blown away by it, it was incredible, and at least when we were there, it might have changed now, but it didn't feel particularly busy at all, it was like you got out onto the lake, and it was just you and the rest of the people on the board, amazing. The other thing I forgot to mention is there's no phone signal or Wi-Fi on the lake, so if you're there for two days, you just won't have any phone signal, just to stay south like it is. No chat notifications, nothing, I remember being very, very peaceful, and I remember there being caves there as well, unless I'm much mistaken, I remember going down into like a couple of limestone caves potentially, which had loads of like... In the National Park, yeah, selectite and select my formations, and that was, yeah, it very much felt like an off the beaten track, kind of little spot, loved it. Yeah, it's a great spot. So you mentioned hot springs before, and we know you're into your wellness, so are there any other experiences in Thailand along those lines that you could suggest? Do you know what Thailand's wellness scene is really booming, and I think that Thailand very sort of cleverly rebranded itself from a backpacker destination to wellness and luxury, and I just, I'm like, how did this happen? Is this like sort of happening around you in the course of the past few years? I remember saying to people a few years ago, "No, no, there's really a lot going on." So there's some very like world leading health results in Bangkok, a great-munkered raxor, a great-munkered RXB, there's lay-end life in Puket, and they're all really into like epigenetics and preventative wellness and things that are going to give you longevity, and same stuff they're doing in Switzerland, but here they mix a lot of Eastern medicine, like Chinese medicine, and I've had it in Indian medicine with Western, and it's, yeah, I've been to visit some of those, and that's been an absolute pleasure. On a very sort of stripped-back note, I absolutely love Toxem massage, which is a very Northern Thai tradition, and it basically, it's out, you're going to go, "Oh, that sounds awful, but no, you get hit with a hammer." Okay, I mean, it's not what I expected. So there's like a wooden slate, they put it along the energy lines, which is similar to the Chinese medicine meridian lines, and the idea is that your energy travels along those lines of your body, and they put the slate along place in your shoulder where that energy line is, and then they knock it with a hammer, a small wooden hammer. It's brilliant. You both look at me like, "No, but it's really good." I've got knots in my shoulders, and actually we're describing it. I was thinking like, "Actually, if someone did get in there with a hammer, yes, I've become a fan of deep tissue massage as well, even though it's like really, can not sometimes be pleasant in the moment. Afterwards, I feel like a brand new person, so I'm out for the little hammers, I think they sound good." Yeah, we'll give it a go. It doesn't hurt. I mean, it depends how hard they whack. It doesn't hurt. The idea is that it's realigning your muscles and getting rid of any tension, but also it gets you feel quite energized afterwards. So yeah, I'm a big toxin fan, and you can't really get that in southern Thailand. It's definitely like a northern Thai thing, so look out for that if anyone's coming north. A regional speciality. Well, I could talk about wellness all day, but Lucy, we're talking about Thailand, and we'd really be remiss if we didn't talk about food. So could you share some of your favourite dishes or your favourite spots? I can. I have to caveat that I'm vegetarian, so a lot of those Thai specialities are very, very meaty, but luckily Chiang Mai is vegetarian, vegan, heaven, it's brilliant. I've actually written about that. There's just so many vegetables, so I can get veggie versions of everything here. If I go to some of the other towns in northern Thailand, not so much, but I eat a lot of cow soy, which is a northern Thai noodle soup spicy, and it normally has like chicken. It's like big flat egg noodles, like yellow egg noodles with crispy fried noodles on top, and normally people put chicken or beef or something, and I get tofu. But I can have that for breakfast. I feel like you know you've lived in Asia for a while when you start eating savoury things for breakfast. So I remember going on holiday to Japan and China years ago, and I saw it in London. I was like, "Oh, these people eating rice at breakfast." I could never do that without my frosties or something, and now I'm just like, "Yeah, no, Lucy, for breakfast, let's go." But yeah, I do eat cow soy for breakfast most days now. Patsyu is another great one. It basically means stir-fried soy sauce noodles, and that's kind of like what Thai people would eat their number one noodle dish really, and it's delicious. You can get it with all different toppings, like wise whether it's street food or in a fancy restaurant, Patsyu is a really good one. You don't really see Thai people eating pad Thai, I have to say. It's a bit like the chicken korma thing where it's like, "That's not really something you'd get in India." You can absolutely get it everywhere, but generally, Patsyu is more popular, and I really like Pad Ka Proud as well, which is a stir-fried with basil, and then it normally has a fried egg on top and meat, but I'll have it with tofu and fried egg instead. Pad Ka Proud, Patsyu, classics. That sounds honestly so good. I'm like, I've had breakfast about 30 minutes ago, and yeah, I'm like hungry now, and noodles for breakfast sounds good to me. I'd be totally down with that. Not kids who you've tried it, and also mango sticky rice, I mustn't forget, mustn't forget mango sticky rice, but I try and limit myself to like one a week or something, because it's so, also it's a whole meal, like people say, "Oh, mango sticky rice is dessert." No, that's so filling, so filling, so I sometimes have that for dinner instead, which, in a responsible advice, but you know, why not? No, it sounds good to me. Sometimes you need a little enduro boost. So we talked about quite a few hidden gems, and off the beaten track stuff, but are there any others that you'd like to share with us? I feel it would be remiss to not fly the flag for Northern Thailand because of a lot of people I meet. So yeah, I've been to Thailand, I went to this island in that island, I've been to the north, though. Oh no, there were no beaches. Also people say to me, "You live in Thailand, and you don't live near the beach." Why would you do that? You know, so the north is amazing. I really love Nan, which is in the northeast, it's a few hours, maybe like four hours drive from Chi Mai, and it's a really fantastic city. The north of Thailand's got a lot of Lana culture. Lana was a different empire for a few hundred years, and so it's got a slightly different language. It sounds a bit more like Lao language, and there's a temple in Pumin. It's just got these most fantastic 19th century murals inside it, and you can just see how people dressed, and there's got these fantastic murals of the tattoos that Lana people used to have covered their legs, like covered in tattoos. I love that. I really like Nan. Also Nan's got a lot of really famously beautiful nature and drives, and co-clantations, and silver work, like it's just great. It's a really great one that I don't think many do this to me, you know, about. And then even tinier is this old town called Pair, which is spelt. He H-R-A-E, and it took me a very long time to work out how to sit there. I think I'd been there for about four times before I figured it out, and it's between Nan and Chiang Mai, so it's quite nice if you wanted to go to all three. It's quite easy because they're connected. And it's just this really great old town that's got lots of unusual teak architecture, because it was the centre of the teak industry in the 19th century, like the Western world, building their railways. The wood came from there. So it's got all these, like gingerbread houses, they're called, you know, like really ornate European style houses that are really rare. I like it there a lot. And then the other tip, I would say, a lot of people who are coming to Chiang Mai tag on going to Pair, which is a small village north-west of here, but I prefer Chiang Dao. Pair is really really busy. It's a backpacker haven, backpackers love it. Cytrans parties in the forest. Great. Can you tell? I like enthusiasm, besides parties in the forest, but Chiang Dao is gorgeous. And if you want to go to a small village and have the kind of, I'm driving a bike through the rice paddies to find a tiny cafe to sit in a hammock and write my thoughts, you know, like pies, pies lovely, but it's pretty packed. It's not for her Chiang Dao, which is two hours north of Chiang Mai. Amazing. Lucy, I think you're a great cheerleader for the north and for hidden gems in general. Thanks so much for showing so many things to do. I can't wait to get hammered in the back and eat some noodles for breakfast. Whether you want to sample world-class cuisine, explore awe-inspiring temples or bask on some of the world's most gorgeous beaches, Thailand has something for everyone. Make your trip extraordinary with your DK travel guide, available online and in all good bookstores. So you've convinced us to come to Thailand, Lucy. We're packing our bags imminently, but is then optimal time to visit. Generally peak season across Thailand is November, December, January, February. European winter or North American winter, it's when people come here, but I have a lot, I have a lot of love for green season. Green season is the marketing branding of rainy season. Very, very rainy. Nicely done. And some, as I said at the beginning, some islands in south have a microclimate, so actually July and August aren't rainy in Costa Moury, Copenia and Cotale. That, the Samoury archipelago in the Gulf of Thailand, they actually have their rainy season in November and December. So you can, it's normally cleared up by Christmas, but anyway, generally people come to Thailand in November, December, January, but I really like it here at the moment because it's much quieter. And if you do like natural sites and you do like being out in nature, it's just everything pops. It's so green. And you can't necessarily go on all the hike because you want to if it does, obviously if it chucks it, but it doesn't rain every day, it will rain, it will just hammer it down. Like you've never seen such heavy rain until I moved to Asia six years ago. I thought, yeah, I thought I knew rain, but you don't know. You can't drive in it, you can't walk in it, you just sort of stand and watch and hope that you've got stranded in a good place, a good cafe or somewhere that you want to be stranded for the hour or half an hour that it takes to pass, but it does pass is my point. So if you did visit in July of August and you think, oh, it's raining, it doesn't really very often last very long. And sometimes I've actually driven through the rain, like I'll drive, it's not raining and then I'll drive like 200, 300 yards and I've passed through the cloud and you're like, you come through the other side of it, it's really, you can sometimes see the sheets of rain coming down, it's very elemental. Yeah, I like it a lot. But I guess if it's the first time and you would like it an easy time, November or late January the best because obviously December prices are sore, like sore, so high, but early November, perfect weather, late January, perfect weather. So if you can box around, you know, sort of school holidays, but that's that's when I would say most, most comfortable, but if you're up to an adventure and you prefer to be in countries when it's not super busy, then why not try July? I am, I don't deal very well with the heat, I think a lot of the time, and so I actually really like monsoon season. I mean, maybe not if it was, you know, the whole time, but you're right, I think I've seen it come down like that before and it is super elemental, it's like an incredible experience and you can't, you can't do anything in it. I think like, sometimes here in the UK, you know, we'll go out with our brollies and stuff when it starts running, no brollies going to take that, it's going to be destroyed. Oh no, oh no, I can't do it. Just wave goodbye to your umbrella. Yeah, no, no, no, no. Okay, so we know we need to check the weather, but what about checking the calendar for any standout festivals or events that we could plan our visit around? The two biggest events on the Thai calendar are Leicroton and suncrowns, so Leicroton is the, I guess, Christmas equivalent. Leicroton is the festival at the end of November where all the lanterns are released into the sky. It's praising the goddess of water and the idea is that you're cleansed by water to start a fresh and people release the lanterns in the sky to make their wishes moving forward. They float baskets down rivers to let go of troubles and it's really, really pretty and it's always in Leicroton, but I want to say about the 25th, 26th, that kind of time of November. It's lovely time to be here. There are a lot of my Thai friends say be mindful of having eco cratons if you do join in and you want to put your hand on the craton that floats down the river. You can buy them that we can make your own, there's a lot of workshops in Chiang Mai and I'm sure there are in Bangkok and other places where you can make your own craton out of like bell leaves and things like that and not, you know, not bioplastic things, but then it's someone's job to go down river and clean up all the plastic, so yeah, yeah. So that's something to note about that, but it's gorgeous, like the lantern that's going off is just, yeah, it's a really special time. And then Thai New Year, which is in April, is the biggest water fight you've ever been to. It's called Songkran and again, it's a very water themed, like the idea is of cleansing yourself. A lot of tourists come and they put their Hawaiian shirt on and they go out with water guns and but you can actually get up early in the morning and go to temple. That is the main part of it. That is what it was for. The water fights have developed over the years, but people go to temple and wash and sort of put water over the statue of Buddha and it's just this, like, cleansing and purification and washing away bad luck. But then there's the water fight and that is that's really something. Bangkok and Chiang Mai are the most famous places for it. Chiang Mai is surrounded by moat and so people go to the moat and you can fire your water guns and yeah, that's that's the good time as well, that's mid-Aid for all. But yeah, it's now at the year 2500 and 68 in Thailand. So, you know, I'm greeting you from a different year. It's with 543 years ahead by Buddhist calendar. Wow, I didn't know that. I'm glad that you said that because I was trying to work it out. I was like, "we're the second. I'm not very good at maths." That's trying to, trying to work it out. The only time it confuses me is when I'm trying to read stuff on Google and you know how Google has the date of when things were published but it puts the date of the Thai year because obviously I'm reading Google in Thailand. I'm like, "I am a little surprised. I can't work it out there too much." I'll be doing exactly the same thing, I think. So, they both sound like beautiful events to come to Thailand for, but as well, we always like to end our episodes by asking how our listeners can make a positive impact when they're visiting Thailand. So, do you have any tips for that? I think that trying to visit under-touristic spots is a great place to start. Support smaller villages, support smaller businesses and local Thai businesses if you can. A lot of people come to Thailand and they want to see elephants and that's a real big issue because elephant tourism generally here. Elephant tourism is getting a lot better here but still a lot of the elephant experiences you see people going like bathing the elephants and hugging them and getting photos with them and just don't touch them, don't bathe them. You know, if you do want to go and visit elephants make sure that the place you're going has a very hands-off policy. We have one of people in the Nature Park which is completely hands-off. But yeah, even friends of mine who are experienced travelers or travel writers are like, "Oh, I'm going to this one and I'm going to bathe them." And I'm like, "Oh, don't do that." But yeah, I think that's the big thing for Thailand really. Research, elephant tourism and support local businesses and folks I'm really looked great on the white lotus but there's lots of other islands to visit. Lots of islands which you've recommended to us. Thank you so much Lucy. That was great. You're welcome. It's been such good episode. Thank you for inviting me back. It was great. Oh my gosh, cow socks. Sounds like heaven. I think after we get off this recording I'm going to go pick it up and book a flight because it just sounded so idyllic and I want to be somewhere very remote with no signal or interest. But it's on the water. That's great. I can confirm that, I mean, yeah, I was there a little while ago but it was just absolutely beautiful and Lucy's got me dreaming of going back a lot and she's also got me dreaming very strangely of being hit with tiny hammers. That sounds like right at my street now. Yeah, at first I was like, no and then the more I thought about it and I felt these twinges in my shoulders. I've said, "Yes, actually, I do want someone to get in there with a hammer." Yeah, when I realised I was like hunched over the microphone and I thought, "Yeah, maybe it would be a good thing for me." And also noodles for breakfast. She's got me sold on that. Yes. Incredibly keen. I'm sold on the Thai lifestyle. I want it all. Thank you so much to Lucy. Listener, you can follow Lucy on Instagram at 80Bays. That's 80Bays and find her work at LucyGrace.quantedly.com and join us for the next episode where we're talking all things maps. So it's a very special episode with DK's very own cartographer. You won't want to miss it. This podcast was produced by Julia Baker and me, Bella Tolbert. For more information about DKTravel, visit DK.com/travel and follow us on social media. Please rate, review and follow the show. We really appreciate your support. [Music]