Testing $1,000 Mountain Bikes in the Desert: Value Field Test Recap

Speaker 1 Hello everybody, and welcome to the Pinkbike Podcast. I'm Mike Casmer, joined today by Dario Degiulio, Stefan Pelletier. And we're going to talk about field test, Sedona value bike field test. We're down in the desert couple months ago on some bikes that were almost less than $1000. We'll get into that in a little bit, but we had a a crop of four and then five bikes and then did some testing in the desert. Hello Dario. Hello, Stefan. Speaker 2 Hello. Hi, guys. Speaker 3 Here we are. Speaker 2 We're here. We're back. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, it was great. It was super fun, like always a treat to get to go there. Such a cool part of the world. It was really fun to drive into Sedona with Stefan for his first time and just watch his mind split in half at the beauty of it all. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 3 And a fun crop of bikes, like genuinely a surprise to us in terms of like what we ended up with, which was fun like, you know, for a little like peek behind the curtain. Usually when we're doing a field test, we kind of talk about the group as a group and we try to come, you know, to some decisions collectively. But on this, Mike just like chose the bikes, had them sent to Sedona and we showed up and found out what we were riding. So it was kind of a fun little surprise and. Speaker 1 That's it. This is the least expensive bikes that we used before in a value test and past value. Value obviously means different things to everybody, but we've kind of done $2500. I think we did one that was around $3000. So those tend to be mostly full suspension bikes, little bit nicer parts. And this one is kind of these are the bikes that people that want to get into the sport, brand new to it and they want something that's, you know, a step above a a department store bike, a bike you can actually go mountain biking with, but they don't want to spend thousands and thousands of dollars. That's how we came up with these four bikes. Yeah. So we have the Ozark Trail Fast Flow FS .3 and then there's the Polygon Xstrata 7, the Giant Talon and the specialized Rockhopper SO1 full suspension 3 hard deals. Speaker 3 Right around 1000 bucks. Yeah, I think it's it's funny, it's like a very arbitrary number, but the one that gets thrown around always when someone's like, I'm thinking about getting into this sport, what can I get for $1000? Like it's it is a sticky thing for some reason, so. Speaker 1 It seems like enough that you should be able to get something good, but it's not so much that it's crazy like it's still a lot of money. There's no, none of us like I just thrown $1000 around. It's still a lot, especially if you're comparing it to, you know, if you want to get into running, it cost you expensive pair of running shoes of what, like $200? You know there's plenty of $100 running shoes that would be fine. Speaker 2 So for sure like skateboarding. Speaker 3 I would implore people to look online and like take a peek around. There are very few good bikes for $1000. Like it's kind of a hard, it's a hard segment to do well. It's really difficult to be the product manager for these sorts of projects because you don't have anything to play with financially. Like you really do have to scrimp and save on everything. And so you end up, you know, compromising somewhere that's a guarantee. It's just a matter of where. I do think that this group was like generally pretty impressive in terms of like what they managed to do with 1000 bucks or whatever the the OE costs are for them. Like obviously the thousand includes profit for the company. So yeah, it's it's a really tough thing to do. Speaker 2 It was interesting reading the the comments so far. Episode 1's out. If you haven't checked it out, check it out. But a lot of comments, a lot of people chiming in on, you know, what they think of $1000 bikes should be what where, you know, brands should be compromising or not compromising. But yeah, I mean, we, we looked around and it was, you know, this is what 1000 bucks gets you. And in all the bikes defence, I want to just say like they're all rideable. We rode Sedona, which is not easy riding. It's quite technical, quite chunky. It's a bit more on like the cross country ish side of things for a lot of the stuff. I mean, there's some really gnarly moves if you, but it's like it's very technical and awkward cross country, you know, exactly. But like. Speaker 1 Hard country, hard country, hard country, hard. Everything's hard. The ground is also very hard and it's pointy things or prickly. Yeah, beginner in Sedona would be pretty tricky to, you know, to let people know the trails we tested on, we did test on more trails are appropriate for these bikes. We didn't just go up to, you know, hangover and wonder why the bike felt funny on some steep rowdy stuff. But it they did get tested on hard trails as well as easier. Speaker 3 Yeah, we also like quickly overestimated what we'd be able to get away with on the bikes and like, yeah, did some adventuring, but it was fun. Like I. Speaker 2 Think it was a combo of not knowing? Well, maybe you'd been there before, but not knowing where we were going and yeah, riding, yeah, trails blind. But it like where I was going with that is the bikes. You know, we were mountain biking on $4000 bikes and I had fun on all of them. Like you can go out and ride these bikes and they're real mountain bikes. It's not like you're buying, you know, a $400.00 bike that's from a big box store, although one of them is from a big box that that won't be able to get you, you know, out on the trails. You can ride mountain bike trails on these SO. Speaker 3 One, one thing I loved about the comments so far here is every time we do a field test, it feels like 30% of the comments are people like, oh, why didn't you include this? Whatever bike that I ride every day and love with all my heart and want confirmation bias on, that is a very silent block of people today because no one can come up with alternatives. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like I think we did a good job that the only bike. Speaker 3 There's just very few options, like it's a really tough segment. Speaker 1 Yeah, the one bike we did try to get that wasn't, we wouldn't, weren't able to get one was the Trek Marlin. That's another bike in this price point and like a common bike. Speaker 3 Of the cheap but yeah, so. Speaker 1 We weren't able to get one. They don't really have them available for review apparently, just because they they kind of sell themselves. So like, we don't have any we can send you, which is too bad. I would have liked to have it in the mix. But we did get. Yeah, having to specialize in the Giant in there just because those are bigger brands that tend to be in many bike shops. So that's kind of what you're likely to see. And then, yeah, the Ozark Trail, same thing. It's, you know, sold at Walmart or at least online. It can be hard to get, but I think. Speaker 3 Yeah, I had a hard time finding it online. Like when I supposedly there's a. Speaker 1 Yeah, it'll be back in stock soon. So people that were into that, but that's a bike that's kind of had a lot of hype around it because it is Walmart making a closer to a higher end mountain bike. But you can obviously get it everywhere and it's very inexpensive for what it is. So yeah, I was glad we got that one in. But let's go into like the let's start with the stand outs out of all the bikes. And by the time this comes out, we'll have the the second episode where we brought in another bike, the state state bike, which is a little bit more expensive, but we wanted to do some comparison of what 500 extra dollars would get you. So the state costs $1500 and you know, that gets a little bit nicer parts kit and stuff. But yeah, what were some of the standouts? You know, any bike in particular that surprised you or, you know, some favorites? That's how we used to Von. What do you got? Speaker 2 Yeah, the Polygon I think was a stand out for being in that same sort of price point. It ended up being a bit more money because I guess tariffs or whatever you whatever it was. Speaker 1 Yeah. Originally they came up with a new model and now it's 1100 or 1299, so it is more than $1000 that. So we've tested bikes around $1000 but it's still in that realm and they make a cheaper one too. Speaker 2 But it was because they have a lower spec of that one. But just in general that frame quality felt a lot more dialed. And just the the component spec, like we, we kind of quickly noticed everyone was compromising somewhere. That was sort of like the, the theme was, you know, you'd put all your eggs in the suspension basket or whatever basket. That felt like the most well-rounded part spec throughout the whole build. For me. It was the most natural feeling bike to ride right off the get go without making any changes. So that was really impressive. And of course, the Ozark just having that rear suspension in a $900 package was total stand out. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, it was super impressive and. Speaker 1 And actually impressed too. Like this isn't just you know, there are cheap bikes you find at Walmart. You know they have their mountain bike shaped objects because the suspension is just a coil shock that has no right anything. Speaker 3 Damping is just like a weird spring attached to a seat post or something and it like doesn't really do anything. Speaker 1 Quite. But yeah, this is an air shock that you can adjust your body weight and you're able to get it to field bearings. Speaker 2 Yeah, it's worth noting. Like I was curious how you know it was constructed. So I did take the linkage apart and I mean you know alignment aside, it wasn't perfectly aligned like you would expect from that price point, but the frames burly and it uses real bearings. Speaker 3 Yeah, it was actually shocking to me. Speaker 2 Yeah, I didn't think and it has UDH derailleur hanger threaded BB tapered head to. Speaker 3 Lighting like XX transmission on the Ozerks trail. Speaker 2 Yeah, it could. It's a thing. Speaker 3 I know it could. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 You could spend like. Speaker 3 You could spend five times the price of the bike on the drivetrain. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 I know I even have like the kinematics charts. I I, the the guy that designed the bike got a little back and forth with him, but it's pretty cool. Like his task seems to be the design of a mountain bike that doesn't cost a lot, that actually works. And like, it looks even the the the design and everything could be a higher end bike. It's obviously heavier. And like you said, some of the tolerances and defined details are not there. It it is clear that it's, you know, around $1000 bike, but it rides really decent. Yeah, I think it. Speaker 2 It's a bit heavier too. I feel like they used maybe thicker tubing in hopes that they'll have not have failures. Yeah, like it's really, I think it's quite overbuilt, at least looking. I don't know how they'd stand up to like heavy abuse, but yeah, it, it looks, you know, kind of reminds me of a Bossnet, that other value bike kind. Speaker 1 Of a caliber. Speaker 2 Yeah, so cool. Yeah. That way you start out, yeah. Speaker 3 I'm going to kind of ring the same bells like that Polygon was definitely the most well-rounded bike. We kind of we were excited by the Ozark initially just because it was full suspension and it like kind of did the best on most of that technical desert riding. But then as we rode the bikes a lot more, we found that the Polygon was kind of holding up to abuse a bit better. And I think it just represents like a very solid do a bunch of things bike where like the Rockhopper was pretty constrained by some of its features and it's geometry just felt a bit sketchier. And then the Giant I think was promising, but had just an abysmally bad fork and like it really held the whole package back. So like, I do think that Giant could be upgraded pretty effectively, but the Polygon ultimately like as a, you know, check the box bike like did the best job and then. Speaker 1 The Polygon just seems nice too, even like looks wise it. Speaker 3 Looks the frame is nice looking, Yeah, genuinely. Yeah. You know, if we're including the upgrade picks, like that state is awesome. Like I think we both probably had the most fun riding that bike. Like which? Speaker 2 Just felt like a little little, I don't know, big dirt jump trail bike it's. Speaker 3 A 20 Niner dirt jumper. But yeah, it rode really well. It has better Geo for the kind of riding we wanted to do on the bikes and you know it. It's more expensive. It comes unassembled. So there are some asterisks on the thing. But like genuinely a really good bike and probably like, you know, looking at the frames in close detail after a bit of abuse like it, it was probably the one that would hold up to a hard life the most, I think. Speaker 2 I think it's like a steel frame like that like if well taken care of and you know, not totally abused. I think that could last you 10 plus years yeah easy. And you could just replace things as they go. But that bike was so impressive, genuinely like I I have a it was I've had a chromatic root down in the past and I have another steel hard tail and they're way more expensive, but like I couldn't tell this. Speaker 3 It's the same thing, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, it's true. It's. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a cool one. I will say that yeah, we we mentioned it in the in the episode, but I I was a little bit bummed when it to find out how disassembled it comes 'cause if you're. Speaker 3 Shopping for it, It is just a box of parts like there's, Yeah. Speaker 1 Like the steer tube's not even cut on the fork. And there are things that your beginner wouldn't have access to and even some right avid riders wouldn't have all those things You'd so you'd have to pay extra money, which it's a nice way to save money when you're purchasing a bike, but there's just kind of that built in. It'd be like if your car showed up with the wheels off and the engine sitting next to it. Speaker 3 Yeah, it's definitely like it's a tricky 1 to price out as well cuz shops will charge a fairly different price to build an online purchased bike depending on how they feel about that. So you might get a homie at a shop who's going to do you know, whatever, 70 bucks to build a bike or they're going to try to disincentivize you by charging you $400.00 for a bill. So it's hard to price that out, which is a bummer. But yeah, my bike is sick. You know, nothing that YouTube and a knowledgeable buddy can't try to fix. But it will be some amount of work for the prospective buyer. I think there were some like takeaways in general from the test that we're worth noting, like in terms of the components that we're seeing and like the general trend in that world. Like we did have a couple questions in the comments I noticed about why even buy a bike with suspension at that price point. And I think well, it it's better like it, it is more comfortable. If you're a new mountain biker, you are going to be much happier if you have suspension. I think that's the counter intuitive thing with like how we recommend bikes is often you hear the adage of like, oh, you should start on a hardtail. You get better skills. A lot of people would be better served by starting on a bike that has front and rear suspension that's well set up. Like the better you get at a thing, the worse the equipment can be and you can still have a good time. But if you're brand new and you're learning the skills like having bad equipment is hard and makes it harder. And so I think all these bikes try to tackle that problem in a different way, piece to piece, but like they do a pretty good job of it. Speaker 2 Yeah, something, but what the Back in my day crowd, you know? Speaker 1 Yeah, it was kind of funny. I was gonna. We'll have to. We should. Yeah. After this, we have. Should we should all say our first bikes? Mine. My first actual mountain bike. I just did a little calculation. It was a Diamondback Topanga SEI bought it from Dick's Sporting Goods and back in 1996 it cost $470. And then I just did some calculation because and that's makes me seem old, but in today's dollars that's $1000 and 13 or 1013 dollars. It's like my first real bike was $1000 hardtail and that had full suspension, not full suspension, sorry. It had a suspension for it because like RST 381 L or something. And I've ridden fully rigid bikes since then. But that bike was nice to start on because you do hardtail was fine. Like I didn't full suspension wasn't even really that much of a thing around then. But just having you know, 80 mils or 60 mils of travel, it takes the edge off things. And as you're learning and making mistakes, I do think it's it's nice to have that And even the, you know, all these budget forks, most of them at least worked. I think that there were ones there. They have their weaknesses and they're not super adjustable, especially the ones that are just a coil spring in there. I think the giant might just be a coil. Speaker 3 Spring. So yeah. Speaker 1 You know, for bigger riders it doesn't really work, but it's still better than nothing I think for a lot of riders and they're they can be swapped out in the future. Speaker 2 Yeah, I have Brody Helion Helion with but it had like a coil whatever Marzoki fork way back when. Yeah, I mean it's definitely like you can argue either way on the hard tail thing and building skills. But at the end of the day people get new to the sport. I think the more you can make your experience enjoyable, especially in those early days, more likely you are to stick with it because mountain biking is not like the most, you know, friendly sport to get into at the start depending. Speaker 1 On so hard, yeah compared to like, you know, skiing and snowboarding your hard because you are gonna crash but like mountain biking, there's no snow you're just hitting the ground and that's expected. You know it is kind of a funny thing to tell people like you're gonna crash onto the ground, especially if you were starting for kids it's not as big a deal because they're made of rubber and they can bounce and they love it. But yeah, if you're starting anywhere older than 1516 it just you're taller and you're full size human that's a lot of you're up tall and you're falling to the ground. It's hard. So yeah, if you can make it so that doesn't happen that much I think it's better. And yeah, I like hard tails. There's nothing wrong with them. Like this isn't full suspension is all there is. But yeah, if somebody has the funds to buy a full suspension bike and want to start on that it's totally fine. I don't think there's any. No need to shame people for having better equipment that makes it safer and easier. Speaker 3 I mean, it's part of the reason that, like, current World Cup kids are so talented is that they started on really good equipment, like really good. The confidence level is just much higher as a result. Yeah, yeah, real mountain bike for for the record, coming to Fire Mountain. Speaker 1 That's classic, such a classic. That's classic. Speaker 3 Yeah, still something you can buy. They just keep iterating. It's still like 100 mil hardtail. That's the job. Speaker 2 How much do those go for, I wonder? Speaker 3 Currently there's 699 but they, you know, there's, I mean there's line up options. I should say that like that's the cheapest 1 I think. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's created the hard to. I'm thinking back to that Diamondback I was talking about. If that was technically $1000, hard deal. I think a candle ever brakes on it. That's crazy, yeah. Speaker 2 Times are different times. Speaker 3 Are the V brake for sure? Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 But now you're getting disc brakes, hydraulic. All these bikes have hydraulic disc brakes, which is really nice. Like, you know, even for especially for kids, You know, if you ever see a little kid try to pull a cable actuated brake, their fingers aren't strong enough to actually activate it and they're just their brakes don't work. Which is also crazy to put your kid in a bike where, yeah, but you can't stop before they. Speaker 3 Treat the main line safety feature doesn't work. Speaker 2 That's an interesting point, Mike, and as I was writing the second article, I was thinking about that and honestly all the all the bikes had the brakes are all, you know, within safe. They were all safe. They were all good hydraulic brakes, no problems. I don't think that was a concern. The drive drains are all for the most part good. The the micro shift on the Ozark was maybe a bit sloppier, but they're all like wide range shifters, you know, multiple height, 11 or 12 speed. So that was really good. I think where we had breakdowns were in the wheels, in the cockpit and in the suspension. Those were like the bigger differentiators and tires actually, like a nicer set of tires does make a huge difference in confidence. But yeah, it was kind of cool that all the bikes had good brakes and gears, which. Speaker 1 Yeah, and you really the. Speaker 3 Tires thing, go ahead. Speaker 1 Oh sorry, I was gonna go with the tires because we didn't have that many flat tires considering we were in the desert riding hard tails on hard riders. Speaker 3 Yeah, like that's which wasn't the tire. Speaker 2 'S fault that one wasn't the tire's fault that was. Speaker 3 Truly 2 failed, yeah, and it didn't puncture it just like sheared off at the valve, which happens when you're yeah, shredding, I guess, but it's just. Speaker 1 Smooth, smooth riders out there. Speaker 3 I mean, I definitely was like riding cautiously in some areas just because I knew, like, it would suck to get a flat. And so there's some element of that. And that's like good advice for a new rider is like, try to preserve your gear, but like, don't ruin the experience and service of it. Like, you know, try to use your tools. But no, I think we did a good job of balancing all that. I destroyed a wheel on the Ozark out of stupidity, I suppose. But you know, it happens. Yeah. I just wanted to touch on the cockpit thing just because that's like a funny area of distinction. Like part of the reason we liked that Polygon so much right off the bat is it had a short stem. Like it's it's that simple. But it like really does change the experience where you have that giant with like 100 mil extrusion stem and it just makes the handling horrible. Like I don't care if cross country pros ride stuff like that. Still it sucks. Like it's not a good handling experience if you're looking for like comfort and like. Nice feel. It's maybe aggressive and accurate if you're that kind of rider, but like most new riders aren't looking for that. And it's we we all assume, and I think this is probably true. That's just like an overstock thing. Like the reason those stems are on those bikes is because specialized in giant own 10s of thousands of those stems still from back in the day. And they're just, you know, they're popping them on there. Speaker 2 I don't know. Yeah, I. Speaker 1 Feel like now, I mean, yeah, I'm waiting for that stock to run out. It's got to get close like one of these years. They're finally. Speaker 3 There's no way they're buying those steps. Like what's? I don't know. Speaker 2 I feel like maybe just no one's called them out on it and it's just, you know, business we should go. But like it's I think the. Speaker 3 Longer, yeah. Speaker 2 Well, we are right now. We're calling them out. And yeah, if you're a product manager and you're listening and. Speaker 3 Why are you expecting this? Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, put a shorter stem on. It's just it's more intuitive to ride. I mean, we, I feel like pink bikes sort of guided, you know, longer dropper posts on on bikes. So. Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, Mike was part of the vanguard of people getting shorter stems on bikes as well. Speaker 1 Shorter stems, wider bars were like me and Levy were up there in the front, but like, hey, let's do this. And then now it's sweet because when even the higher end bikes come, they have short stems, wide bars, even on more cross country bikes because people realize that it rides really nicely like that and it doesn't really affect have negative effects on the climbs. Speaker 2 At that level of cockpit for the OE guys, that that stem, you know, is probably a couple bucks literally. And yes, it can't be, you know, more than like a dollar to make it a better stem like a it's. Speaker 3 It shouldn't be more expensive to be shorter though. That's the like. I mean it falls under the geometry is free camp. You know, it's like less material. It should, right? Exactly. Speaker 2 I'm sure we should have a product manager come in and explain to us why they expect these. Stupid. Speaker 3 I would think I'm fascinated to talk to someone who does this level of product management cuz we often get to talk to the people who do the nicest end bikes because that's often what we're presented with. But this is a really difficult prompt. Like make a good bike for 1000 retail is a really hard thing to do and those people must be sweating like details that you don't otherwise think about. Like like the brand of rotor bolt that you're getting matters, you know, like those sorts of things add up in price and they change the whole spectrum of pricing so. Speaker 1 Yeah, and you're trying to get enough bikes, like a quantity of bikes that you're ordering is gonna be a lot greater than your high end bikes. But you need to make sure you sell through them. Otherwise you get stuck with bikes like I mean that rock hopper that I would say it's by the worst bike that we had in unfortunately from a big company, Specialized, you know, huge. They make some of the fastest, best fanciest bikes on the market right now. But then down here at the $1000 level, it definitely hasn't trickled down. That bike had quick release skewers front and rear, doesn't have a dropper post, and it has a it. Speaker 3 Has a straight steer. Speaker 1 Tube, like that's not, you know, I mean, it's acceptable for gravel paths, but for mountain biking, I don't think that's really acceptable in 2026. Like for this much amount of money compared to all the other contenders. Like it's kind of a bummer when we open that box. Like I had an idea when I did order it, but like, well, this is their $1000 mountain bike. They should, that's what it is. But yeah, disappointed. Speaker 3 And it, it falls into that camp of like, if you look at the picture on the on the Internet, you're like, yeah, it looks like the same as the rest. Like it, it has the silhouette, it it's got a nice paint job. It seems like it should tick all those boxes. And then in person you're like, oh, this is worse. And it was still fun. Like that's the The thing is like, we had a good time on it. But like definitely falls short in, in some pretty meaningful ways. And I mean it had a. Speaker 2 Dropper post, a tapered head tube and through axles. It would have been, yeah, you know, probably right up there with the Polygon. Maybe not quite, but like close. Speaker 3 Yeah, the Geo is like a couple degrees off and otherwise pretty normal. Speaker 2 But I mean, all those things, I don't know, like it's easy for us to sit here and be like, why don't you just do that? Like maybe it cost money, maybe we're missing some details, but they don't seem like expensive things to change. Not doing a tapered head tube versus a straight steer head tube. Or you know, I guess the dropper post definitely cost money, but hey, you know, like little things that at least make it upgradable later in life and just bring it up to a modern standard I guess. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly, because that's the whole goal. Like you want these, if these are people's first bikes, you want them to ride it and get excited about mountain biking because mountain bike, it's awesome. I guess the whole take away. Yeah. And then you get this bike like this is great. Can I buy something to make it even more better? Now I'm hitting bigger drops or I can go down steeper stuff. I need a dropper post or I need a a better fork and yeah, I don't know. It's a it is cool. I would say it's cool overall. How many good bikes are in this, how good bikes have gotten. I think that's a nice take away. But there's definitely still room for improvement, especially in this price point. I think if we had done another value test of the $3000 or 2500, there's a lot more options and then things get even better, obviously. Yeah, but they cost twice as much, so. Speaker 3 Like my approach if I were doing this, I think would be that like what has the best upgrade pathway? And I think maybe that's coming from the already like obsessed hobbyist perspective where I like, I know I love this thing. I'm going to do it all the time and I want something to get better with time speaking to the bike. But like maybe the maybe the approach is more like what's going to give someone like a pretty good experience for the one day a week or one day a month that they go out on it. And you know, I could see that being part of the logic here, but I don't know. Speaker 2 Realistically, they're not gonna like, if you really get serious about mountain biking, you're probably not going to hold on to these for very long. And I think that was something that was in my mind the whole time I was riding was, you know, that breakaway point between these budget bikes, you know, $1000 range to like other budget or value tests we've done in the past. And it's definitely worth, you know, if if you are trying to buy your first bike and maybe you've biked a few times, it might be worth looking to the $2000 range because you'll get probably better bang for your buck, more durability. Yeah, it's definitely there's a lot of factors to consider, but and also the used market, which we had. So we should open. Speaker 3 That game, I think. Speaker 2 100% we so for the second episode we did kind of like the upgrade 50 like added 500 dollars 1500 total budget and we did look locally for the used market on the pink bike buy sell and marketplace other other things to see what was out there but there was nothing even like the used bikes. I think at the shop we looked at, there was nothing in that price point at the time, but they. Speaker 3 Surely be a fun instead of stuff showing up with the state. It would be fun if you showed up with a used bike of some sort. So that was like, he has that budget, but yeah, it's, it's really hard to find a good $1000 used bike, like unless it's a homie deal. And that was like, I remember buying $1000 Canfield hardtail from a friend that had sick parts at the time. And it was like such a come up. I felt like, you know, I'd won the lottery and I rode that bike for years and like, that was a good deal then, probably would be now. Like it's pretty rare. Like I have $1000 buy, sell alert up just to see what shows up. And there's very little of quality that shows up. Speaker 1 And for a new rider buying a used bike, it can be a good option, but it's kind of tricky to know what you're getting. And you might end up seeing something 1000 bucks, but it's a 1999 Klein Mantra. You know, you're like, it's full suspension. I want that. So there is, you almost need that guidance. You need your more knowledgeable buddy or a shop or someone to kind of help you through that used bike buying experience because you, yeah, you don't want to spend $1000 and all of a sudden you're going to ride and was like, what are you riding? You know, where did you get that? That's not going to be safe for whatever. Speaker 3 Yeah, so the dude I bought the 1999 Stab Deluxe from, he was not a mountain biker. He is like a dude that lives in town here, wanted to get into mountain biking a couple years ago and bought it from his neighbor who had lied to him and told him that it was only two years old and this guy didn't look into it. He was just like, oh cool. It's like a modern mountain bike. That's sick. Bought this thing and it was like, wow, I'm having a horrible time riding this bike. I don't like mountain biking. And then he sold it to me for 300 bucks. But like that it can happen. Like, if you don't know, like for me, like getting into skiing, I was just like, I'll buy a set of skis. And turns out they're not all the same. And I, you know, I have the power of Google, but not everyone necessarily wants to do research on their new hobby. So yeah, the user market is is awesome, but like it's too open-ended for some people maybe is the answer. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think you. Speaker 1 Can use it, but yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, and if you have, you know, buddies that already ride, maybe that's it's like buying it. Like sometimes when I'm buying a used car, I'll bring my, you know, car buddies to come check. So helpful because I like I have a basic understanding of cars, but I can't tell all the, you know, they can look at it and be like, Oh yeah, that's rusted out, that's going to go or, you know, this particular year had this issue, let's check it. That sort of stuff like it's just ingrained knowledge by doing it for a while. Like, you kind of need that to a certain degree to buy a used bike. Yeah. And the bike shop, I think is a great place to start as a new rider just because you can pick the brain of whoever is working at the shop. They usually have some sort of a riding community and probably some sort of drop in, you know, beginner rides where you can meet people that are getting into it. There's a ton of value in your local bike shop that goes beyond buying the bike or like surfacing the bike. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. And ideally, even if we say you end up buying that Ozark trailer, bought something online, a good local bike shop will still help you up out in your path to being a mountain bike. Or, you know, whether it's, yeah, trail suggestions, riding, even maintenance and stuff too. They shouldn't be shaming you for your bike that you have, you know, like there is. You know, we've been, or at least did you work in a shop, Stefan? I can't remember but. Speaker 2 Yeah, I worked. Speaker 1 At So we've almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we all have the experience of someone coming in with just a clapped out, kind of a garbage bike, you know, that probably cost $200 new. And those are ones you don't wanna work on. But like all the bikes in this, if you bought into a shop, no one's gonna kind of give you that. All right, I'll deal with this. It's like they show decent bikes. Yeah. Speaker 3 No, yeah, they do even go to a different. Speaker 1 Shop go to different shop, but these are all bikes that are like appropriate components and can be can be made to work again where sometimes people bring in rusty strange objects like can you fix my bike? Like I'm so sorry, but I definitely can't. Speaker 3 It's funny because it's. Speaker 1 Costing too much money? Speaker 3 Yeah, like the adage you often hear is like, oh, so and so brought a Walmart bike in and one of our bikes literally is a Walmart bike. I know. Yeah. But like it, it represents a different category than like the the Huffy bikes that we're describing otherwise. Like it is, it's a legitimate mountain bike and like it should be treated as such. I think that there is definitely some elitism in mountain biking. There isn't every outdoor sport and so. Speaker 1 Elitism. Mountain biking. I never heard about that. Is that? Speaker 3 Real just breaking through that is hard and I think like I don't know that this block of bikes necessarily like does that. I don't know how that happens. I think it's just a matter of like, you see more of them and they are acceptable and hopefully that means they'll get better in time. Like, I don't know that every brand takes this category seriously. I don't think they do. And so I think if more big companies thought to apply real focused energy on this block of bikes, they would really get better. Speaker 1 Yeah, does feel like it's almost like gap where we're starting to see better kids bikes so like 24 inch, 26 inch wheeled bikes. You know, there's a lot of good full suspension, kind of expensive, but the people with the parents that have money that can buy them fancy bikes are getting pretty good. Bikes like the Groms are kind of set. But then there's that gap between, yeah, if you're an adult or even a, you know, taller kid that wants, you know, 29 inch wheels or 27 five even, there's a kind of a gap in that affordable mountain bike space that could. Yeah, they could be more options. I think for sure. Hopefully, hopefully it happens. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 3 I don't know what else, what failed us. You know, tubes, they're fine. They're not great, but they are fine. I'm trying to think of like little set up things. I don't know that this podcast is gonna be like the advice podcast for people, but like, you know, there is a wealth of knowledge on the Internet for those that are getting into the sport and I hope that it's accessible in a way that feels like easy and digestible. I think that's like the yeah, unknown here, but. Speaker 1 I think like once you get your new bike that, you know, say you've got one of these bikes, the next steps kind of the upgrade path, similar what we did in Episode 2. That's kind of a good thing to go down. If you've got the bike, you started to ride it, you really like it, you're into mountain biking, like what do you do next? And there's kind of different pathways. But I think if you, you know, talk about tires, I think converting them to a tubeless setup is a thing that we always recommend. It's kind of a silly thing. Yeah, you can definitely buy some. You buy the sag ometer and yeah, switch your Shim stack in your fork. But no, the I think just going tubeless is nice because it lets you run lower pressure as you're less likely to flat and it can seem weird. It's funny to kind of take a step back away from mountain bike, even think about what tubeless is. You're just putting like strange liquid into your tires and it's kind of a pain. But once you've figured out it's not too bad. But it unfortunately it's still a thing that we do. It'd be cool. Imagine if we had tires just seated, didn't need anything but. Speaker 3 I did, I did do the Whistler opening day story. We're not, we're trying not to do new stuff here. But like a lot of people just run tubes in their bikes at the bike park, which like, yeah, that's a unique use case that we don't need to get into. But like, it is a thing people people be riding with tubes and. Speaker 1 If you run high enough pressure, which you can in the bike park, if you're just doing dirt version laps on a line laps and you can run 30PSI or more, you're a lot less likely to get the pinch flats. They're the reason that we tell people that Tubelus is sweet. But but if you are on more varied derain and want some traction and stuff, then yeah. Speaker 3 Like, for instance, in Sedona, we're like having a bit of tire compliance to get through like really weird rocky tech. It makes a real difference. Like, yeah, yeah, it's worthwhile. Speaker 2 I think too, it's worth note, like, you know, the the upgrade paths or, you know, next steps as a rider, it's worth mentioning at that stage, I think just ride your bike as much as you can and just, you know, find trails that suit your ability and ride them a lot. And yeah, just have fun with it. Like at that level of mountain biking, more time riding is gonna be more beneficial than you know. Speaker 3 Having to buy expensive. Speaker 2 Better. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, yeah, like the Ozark Trail with the full suspension changed how I rode it to a certain degree where, you know, you're you're not scanning the trail in the same way and looking at features in the same way as on a hard tail with the fork. That's kind of like a Pogo stick. Like there, you're being very cautious. Sure. So it, you know, within this range, whatever, whatever you end up with, all I'm trying to say is just go ride your bike and have fun with it like. Speaker 1 That's the best start on mountain biking. The way you get better is you just ride and ride and then eventually you're like, oh I'm really into mountain biking and this is the best. Speaker 2 There's a lot of, you know, especially on pink bike of marginal gains and you know, people that are really technical, technical and picking apart every little detail and and that's great and it's amazing. And it does mean new bikes are so you can have such amazing ride quality, but at the same time, you could still have a great time and RIP on a bike without, you know, all the crazy latest and greatest. It's it happens all the time. Speaker 3 For sure it happens as much as it doesn't. Speaker 2 It's always like that sleeper guy at the local, you know, at your local trails that's riding like a 10 year old bike that he hasn't serviced it ever and he's like the steeziest, best rider in town. Speaker 1 Who's the who's the Squamish guys at Milton Conville? Is that his? Speaker 3 Name. Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, he's riding that, Yeah. Speaker 3 Rides that Wilson with a single crown and just rips, Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, he's very, very, very good. He's riding. I mean, it's still a decent bike. It was, but it's definitely on the more clapped outside of things of what you'd expect for what he's doing with it, which is cool. Yeah, there's something we said about that. Cool. Well, yeah. If anyone has any more questions about the field test, drop them in the comments to this episode and we're happy to answer them. If you have bikes that you're liking that your bike you started on a suite and still available, but people know, yeah. And hopefully everyone likes this and we have more field tests later this year, but it won't be $1000 one, but maybe next year. Again, I do like the I think it's the value field test stuff going. It's cool to get everybody on some more inexpensive bikes. It does just remind you that bikes are fun. So it doesn't. Speaker 3 Yeah, One note, like while we were doing this, I was thinking back to the last value test we did, which was with Sarah in Squamish. And I think that was $2500 price cap. Speaker 1 Yeah, that seems right. Speaker 3 And there were a couple hard tails in there, but like they're like the which? FC Core 1, which is like the cheapest version of the YTGFC was in that test. And I remember being like blown away by that thing. Like I would, I did ride like the gnarliest trails I ride in Squamish regularly on it and it was fine. Like it did genuinely did the job just fine. And I think like it's worth like if you are someone who's shopping in this world, like if the budget is double able for you, like you can get a fantastic bike, like not just great or not just good enough rather, but like something that you would happily ride on a very high ceiling of trail. So I don't know, I think there is some sort. Speaker 1 Of chart you could make about like some sort of graph where it just. Speaker 3 Shows Elker where? I think where? Speaker 1 The price doesn't matter. Yeah, you get to a certain point and it just falls off like a $15,000 bike compared to a $10,000 bike or 8000. There's no difference like. Speaker 3 When someone mentioned it in comments, like if we did a timed loop, like would a $10,000 bike be 10 times faster than a $1000 bike? And the answer is no. Like no, unless the $1000 bike broke and it took you, yeah 10 minutes more to walk out. But like. Speaker 1 Yeah, you might be a little. You'd be a little faster maybe if it was a lot lighter and fancier, but not to a huge extent. It wouldn't match the price difference basically. Speaker 3 I don't think it's a speed thing, I think maybe like comfort and durability become the biggest. Speaker 1 Thing, but it leads to speed, like if you're on a. Speaker 2 Yes, for sure, yeah. Speaker 3 But but I think that's my point is more like a $10,000 bike might be 10 times more durable than $1000 bike. I'd hope like. Speaker 1 Unless it's all super light and fancy and then it's less durable. True. I thought we think this graph will be. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, it is pursuing. Yeah. Yeah. But before everyone listening, know that we're not just trying to push everybody into 10,000. Speaker 3 Dollars like not no, I think I. Speaker 1 Don't think we've ever come across that way, but I know sometimes people think that, but that's we like riding them and they're fun to check out. But all the bikes that we would purchase with our own money would not be the $10,000 fancy things. Yeah, for sure. So if you do see us purchasing them, then something went really right in our lives and I don't know, maybe ask us about crypto advice or something. Yeah, but we do have a ton of reader questions which see how well they tie into the the value bike test. But yeah, thanks to everybody for sending in all these reader questions. It's a reader. Speaker 3 Question I'm shopping between two $7000 forks which. Speaker 1 One exactly the Shim stack in my S works isn't correct. I recommend to I need one more clicker rebound. But yeah, let's see what we've got. So we'll get here the first question. First question comes from Josh. This e-mail address looks familiar, but we'll see if we've heard from Josh before. Yeah, we'll see. Speaker 3 Oh. Speaker 4 Oh, Jim, bike crew. Here's Josh. Yeah on the geez that decided to call you up for the day I dropped back from Glasbury Festival last year. Fuck. Speaker 3 Yeah, Josh, no way. Speaker 4 It's me thinking out of massive own goal. Speaker 3 But I love this guy. Listen that. Speaker 4 You look are quite receptive to the mad waffle of a guy in absolute tatters post festival could have thought. Anyway, my listener question refers back to another listener question from a couple of months ago and you were asked where you thought the soul of mountain biking is and in what direction you think it's headed. I thought that was an absolutely brilliant head wobbler. I think at the time you said you could probably do an entire podcast on that subject. And I for one would absolutely love to hear that deep dive. Anyway, my question is a smaller part of that, and it's this. As I look around us as a group, mountain bikers, I think we draw from quite a narrow demographic. So my question is, as a community, do you think there's anything we can do to make this thing we love more accessible to a wider audience? Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing but good things to say about the current crop of riders. Most of my favorite people on the planet ride bikes. It's just I would like us to be able to open those doors wider, invite more people in and broaden our church. This year His Royal Highness Sir Michael Evers has decided it's a fallow year at Glastonbury, so there's no festival for Josh. Sad times. But to fill that void I am going to do lots of digging up in my local spot BC just outside Bristol. As much riding as I can fit into a busy life. And it's the UK, so there are plenty of other chances to get wonky and wild in a field to a bit of dance music. Speaker 3 Dude, ignore us. Speaker 4 And hopefully I will catch you. Speaker 1 Later on, Josh is the man. This guy is the best. Speaker 3 We're not supposed to choose favourites, but this is my favorite call we've ever. Speaker 1 Had he? He's so good. I really want to meet him. Josh somehow. Let's make it happen the next couple years. I don't know where it'll. Speaker 2 Be a festival around here and we should. Speaker 3 We've got Dance Fest, yeah. Speaker 2 Dance in the field. Speaker 1 Go rave with Josh somewhere. Speaker 3 I'm here for it. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's question. China ties in nicely. Was even talking about mountain bikes, like base entry level mountain bikes and stuff. But how to grow the sport? I mean, I think the easiest way for everybody just kind of get a buddy out there riding. There's so many people that maybe never ridden before, don't even know about it. OK, let's go for a ride. I got a spare bike or, you know, set them up on a rental bike or something. I think that's a easy, easy way to do it. And then lots of it is cool to see, at least where I live in Bellingham, Dario 2, like there's a lot more kids groups kind of popping up and even just group rides there for people that want to progress. We're starting to see a handful group rides that are just for people that want to try different features on the mountain, kind of like almost like jump jams but at on the little free ride features, which is kind of neat too, like. Speaker 3 And there's little barrier breaking rides like people who have never done it before, like that kind of thing I think is key is having a safe space to like just see if you like the thing. Because obviously the buy in, even at the cheapest end, $1000 is too much to see if you like a sport. So having a way to just dip your toes and see if it's for you is pretty huge. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. That's true. Like it's really nice if a shop can do that or shop or a company in your town where they can just kind of set people up. They can roll up and get a free rental and then go out and just even see what mountain biking is like. It's pretty neat. And then you just get some ride leaders that are can help kind of shepherd people through a basic ride. And there's it's, I've been on a couple of them. It's really cool to see the questions that come up, things you don't even think about. And you see people chart to figure it out so fast. But other people, you know, like the concept of riding with level pedals is pretty tricky for people, but you don't even think about it if you've been riding for a while. But then you see someone going downhill with their, you know, 1 foot just pointed out the ground, like, hey, level pedals. But little things like that can make a difference. And also some of them have a good time and not crashing all the time. Yeah. Speaker 2 It's like a it's like a drug dealer. The first one's free, you know? Yeah. Speaker 1 Exactly. It's I think it's a good way to get people into it, you know, and it's true. I think those kind of groups, and anyway, also ones we have like the Vamos project here in town too, which is for, you know, people that might not be able to afford mountain biking because like we said, it's expensive. But if you can get donations from companies and kind of, you know, there's there's basic containers full of bikes that the kids get to use when they go out to ride and then they get to experience mountain biking. And, you know, still it's just more ways to get people in the sport. I think they're more of that we can have the better because it's. Yeah. Speaker 3 I mean, I think too. Speaker 2 Oh, sorry, Dario. Speaker 3 Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, this conversation quickly, like balloons beyond what mountain biking can do, and, like, become something that's more of a broad political conversation of, like, a lot of people just don't have disposable income or disposable time. And so like, even just getting to consider a hobby sport is like a huge privilege. So I think there's a lot to be done outside of, like, mountain bike product management to fix that problem. But like, you know, it is where efforts like Vamos become massively impactful is like the kind of representation you get from even just getting like a dozen kids on bikes who otherwise wouldn't be able to is far more valuable than like signing 1, you know, influencer. Like, I think I know that's like kind of callous to say, but like it really, if you could just like give kids bikes, it will change more lives than like stocking out a few people who already do the sport. I think that's kind of my my gut check on the whole thing. Speaker 1 Yeah, Even getting them into schools, like we're starting to see more pump tracks have popped up around the United States and around the world. I think the pump track programs are kind of neat to get kids. Some schools have like fleets of dirt jumpers that kids can use at recess, basically, or gym class for pump track, which is just a good way to get people realizing what a bike can do, you know? Yeah. Speaker 3 It's so cool, yeah. Speaker 2 Another, I think really big one is supporting the local trail association where you're at. And cuz the reason I say that is they're the ones that are gonna be building, you know, green and blue flow trails that are fun for anyone. And you know, I think the biggest thing for mountain biking for a long time was it was just so hard and difficult and abrasive to get it like like borderline not enjoyable. And now especially like I look at Cumberland, which is not notoriously known for having the rowdiest, roughest, crazy pro trails, but it's got a ton of really fun, flowy green, blue kind of stuff that anyone can come ride and have a good time. And I think that's kind of the thing that allows people to fall in love with the sport, especially if they're a bit older or whatever. Like if you want to bring in new people, make it fun for them. And I know you know, it's like that constant. They're dumbing down the trails, whatever, and you can feel whatever you want, but that's the kind of stuff that expands the horizon. And a really simple way to help, you know, facilitate that is becoming a member at your trail association, helping out at dig days, whatever it is like the trails is where I think it, a lot of it begins. Speaker 1 And it's not dumbing down the trails if you're getting more trails, you know, like it was thinking if you have your favorite gnarly black diamond trail turned into a paved flow trail and that could I could see that like that stinks. But if right next to this gnarly black diamond trail, you get a cool blue flow trail or green flow trail, like that's really neat. You have something for everybody that can aspire to the harder trail. They can ride the new trail and. Speaker 2 I would say, and they won't ride your double Black Diamond trail, Yeah. Speaker 1 Exactly. And realistically, I mean we're, you're probably seen it in Cumberland and we've seen it with or seen it here in Bellingham. The the building style for blue trails these days is getting pretty cool. Like it's a I'd say we're kind. Speaker 2 Of at the. Speaker 1 Forefront of building, but now there's like berms into little techie natural bits into berms that you can ride at all different speeds. You can double up stuff. It's like a it's hard to describe if people haven't experienced it, but I'd say modern blue trails, at least in the Pacific Northwest or something that could be unrelated around the world. And they're they're pretty cool. Speaker 2 There's a new trail that literally opened up this past weekend called Top of the Pops in Cumberland. And it's like exactly that. A blue flow trail with little little tables and little leaking. Like you can hit some optional double S, lots of really good berms. Yep, it was like a highway there this weekend. Like everyone was out riding it. Everyone was talking about. Speaker 3 It the same thing, Yeah, Olay just opened here and it's like it's the exact same experience and it's so fun. Speaker 2 It's like a 60 meter climb, so like it literally takes like 10 minutes to get there and do a lap. That's the kind of thing I think where people could try mountain biking in that sort of situation and be like, oh wow, this is super fun. So yeah, support your local trails and hopefully they'll do some of that. Hopefully they'll also fix up your rowdy double black trails and it'll be a win for everyone. Speaker 1 Sweet. That's a great question, Josh. Thanks for calling in. You're our favorite. Speaker 2 Josh, I want to hang out with you. Yeah. Speaker 1 Don't. Speaker 3 Let our love for Josh dissuade you from calling though, dear listener. Speaker 1 Everybody else can be as good as Josh, too. You can be your favorite callers. Yeah, you just need a cool accent and some good stories. Next one comes from Sean. See what he's got to say. Speaker 5 Hey pink bike podcast, not to get too deep into tire talk, but I've been running Albert radials front and rear for the past few weeks and I was really enjoying them on dry and hard back. Came across some mud this weekend and they did not work super well. The magic Mary, the tacky Chan, like point me in the right direction. I'm still radio curious. I've got my continentals in my garage waiting to be put back on, but still we're trying to play around with these things a little bit. But yeah, could use some advice because I am not super familiar with Schwalby so give me the scoop. Thanks. Speaker 1 Magic Mary. Speaker 3 Bad in the mud. Like really bad. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 Thicker mud, thicker yeah, like I rode. We wrote some medium mud mixed with perfect this weekend and the the Mary was great. It's so good yeah. So that would be my besides. I mean they Schwabe makes the shredder, but that's for extreme cases and it's not that fun to pedal around unless you are on AE bike. So yeah, I run Magic Mary front and rear for most of the year for my bike that sees the most aggressive terrain and most likely to encounter mud and deeper dust and stuff. I really like it. I'm running the gravity casing with a recently I've been running gravity casing rear and the trail casing front magic Mary. And that works well for me. And I run the same pressure in both because they have the the trail casing is a little bit softer. So if you need to run a little more pressure and the gravity casing is thicker. So I just can go for me? I'm pretty light but what do you can run 24 front and rear? Speaker 2 OK. Speaker 1 It's working really well. Makes sense. So it's sweet. But yeah, that's what I recommend. And you could even just start with just a front magic Mary like a front Mary with a Albert rear. Be OK in mud. Depends on how gnarly your conditions are and that could be a kind of do everything combo. But yeah, tacky Chan will also be better than the Albert. It's just a little more wider spacing. There's the new 2.5 that just came out so. Speaker 3 Yeah, or run the, I don't know. The specialized radials are good. I like those a lot. They're. Speaker 1 More tread's not as deep though. I wish they had deeper tread. Speaker 3 It's not like a mud tire, no, but it's worked well for me, like through the sloppy season. It's just not as good as something like the Mary in terms of like clearing sloppy mud. So if that's the goal, then yeah, go with like. Speaker 1 Yeah, bigger Mary's gonna need you can, you can all finish a trail and kind of look between each tire and see which one is packing up and which is not. Like obviously in deep mud they all get kind of cloggy, but the Mary's knobs tend to stick up a little bit. So you still got some traction. So that's where I go. There's a new Romy, but we haven't, we don't have any time on that yet. So we'll get some miles and I think that's gonna be more of an intermediate type thing. Yeah, we'll try that one. Speaker 3 Would be worse than the Albert I think. Speaker 1 It looks a little more open though. We'll see. Speaker 3 Maybe. Yeah, we'll see. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's that's a mystery still to us even. But yeah, for now I go Mary's and you'll be pretty stoked. And now there's new ultra soft Mary's so in more size. Speaker 3 Rubber, right? Speaker 1 Yeah, so it'd be even stickier, but but I found it actually doesn't matter as much with the radials because they kind of give you the mechanical traction versus chemical. So you can run like the soft compound, your tires last longer, but then they're still super grippy. So yeah, I've been liking them. Let's see, next one comes from. Let's go with John. Speaker 6 Hey guys, this is John from Vermont and have a bit of a two-part question. So first part, why don't the makers of park specific bikes offer the dual crown with all the shifty bits in the back? So thinking like status, the spin drift park, the bottle rocket, some of these builds that come with a dual crown also come with the little gears. Why can't we get a pedaling bike with a dual crown fork? And I guess the second part of the question is why don't these bikes have motors? That is the perfect. Speaker 1 Reason for any. Speaker 2 Bike. Speaker 1 Heavy bike. Speaker 6 Big dual crown on the front that can pedal to the top with a motor. Speaker 1 I don't want my park bike to have a motor. Speaker 6 Warrant a bit more discussion but love the pod guys, podcast guys. They love the hot takes and curious to get your thoughts. Thanks. Speaker 3 I think because they're loud. I think that's the biggest reason for the drivetrain. Thing is, like if you're running a Big 12 speed drivetrain in exclusively in park use, it's just gonna clap around more and you have like essentially a more complicated and expensive derailer and drivetrain to beat up. Speaker 1 Plus you need more speed like you can spin out like if you, if you're in the park, like actually riding high speed downhill trails, like you'll spin out pretty easily and you're not, you're just using like the bottom three gears on your cassette and even if with a bigger chain ring. So ideally a park bike has a, a larger like a 34 or 36 chain ring and then a tinier cassette. So it gives you a better range for. Speaker 3 Yeah, I guess that's like the upgrade pathway that maybe those product managers are considering is like most people buying a park bike want the fork, not the drivetrain. And so like not that it's like an either or thing like per your question, but I think most people who are buying those would probably just be fine on a single speed. Like they're just coasting downhill for the most part, hitting jumps they take. Speaker 2 A price point, too. Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. Like it's more expensive to add those high range drive trains and then like probably diminishing or negative returns for a lot of users. So it is a bit niche. And then for the motor thing like bike E bike, what about this? Speaker 1 Yeah, well, I think he's yeah, the Knievo. I think his question is more like there it is kind of funny that there is a there's not a lot of companies doing the dual crown E bike thing. True. Yeah, because you know, why not you do have this motor, it doesn't really matter about paddling uphill, why not make it more downhill oriented? But I think that dual crown forks still turn off some users. They just think it looks like too much or it's too scary, even if it might be better decent amount of applications. So. Speaker 3 To be another thing one other major detail is like the down tubes on E bikes are very fat and dual crowns have a limited turning radius anyway and so when you add those two together you actually can sometimes build a bike that just can't turn very much. So like I've seen people put dual crowns on E bikes and the bike just can't turn past you know like what would be a. Speaker 1 Normal steering mark like so fast. Speaker 3 Exactly. So that is like something to consider if you're building that, but I don't know an option. Speaker 2 No, I thought I had something. Speaker 1 Even, I mean, a modern single crown fork is getting pretty. They're pretty early these days, you know. Speaker 3 Pretty early, yeah. There's definitely the obsession with like dual crowns being like they're going to unlock some level of potential with a bike and like they do on a real downhill bike. But like versus like a 38 or a ZEB at 190 travel like it's not like going to change your life, I don't think. Speaker 1 And if you're on AE bike, if you are riding uphill too, you're gonna be going kind of quick and getting that hitting that steering lock of the dual crown and like a tight turn going uphill. And you're pretty scary, almost even scarier than when you're going down cuz you're, yeah, you're just trying to make it. And there's a lot going on. So I think there's still a market and there are, you know, basically like downhill E bikes kind of being created. I know some people are working on that type of thing, but I don't think we're gonna see the down the dual crown resurgence that keeps being proclaimed. Maybe when gearboxes come, then we'll have it all. Speaker 3 One other thing is like you can't usually get into a gondola with an E bike. Like you have to run it separately. Yeah, like you know where things that way, like you can't keep your battery and your bike and get on the gondola you have. Speaker 1 To go on its own gondola. Speaker 3 Correct. Yeah. So it's just. Speaker 1 Like on fire. Speaker 3 Kind of a nuisance in some ways. It would be. I would be. Speaker 2 The same way to go to be the. Speaker 1 Worst like probably up there in one of like the top ten worst ways to die is an E bike fire in a. Speaker 3 Gondola in a gondola would be pretty bad. Speaker 1 It's so scary. I didn't want to think about it because you'd be so cluster that'd be. That'd be the worst. Speaker 2 That is nightmare fuel. Speaker 1 They need to have those little like electric fire blankets in the gamo so you can just like cover your battery if it catches. Speaker 2 Them you got to be able to open the door in an emergency, like an emergency pole and you. Speaker 1 Could just have you could be so high. Oh yeah, to the forest, right. I was thinking about jumping out. I would probably be better to get the bike out first and not be yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah. Scary. Yeah, that is scary. Yeah. Speaker 1 I think we have time for let's do one more question. I think we got time. Speaker 3 Yeah, there's a lot right now, so we might. Speaker 1 There's very many, yeah. Speaker 2 Thank you for sending them in, they're awesome. Speaker 1 It's great. All right, next one comes from. Let's see, they're all like the same exact amount of time for their questions. Let's see this one. So it's 47 seconds long. So see, they got in a quicker one. This is from Luke, maybe. Come on, Luke, you can do it again. Speaker 7 Hey guys, Luke here from Australia. Quick question about suspension tuning the dark arts. I've got my rebound high and low speed, one click off fully open. I'm riding really rough, fast rocky trails and that feels good. I know what you're going to say feels good, run it, but is there another direction where I could be sort of more in the middle somewhere and have room to go on in either direction? Or is that normal to run really super fast, rebound on really fast rough rocky trails? Let me know, cheers. Speaker 1 It's got one click left. There's one more Click to go. Turn it to 11. Speaker 3 If it is fair, I'd be curious what like if you're within the normal range of air pressure for the setup just because if you're running it really soft, then running it faster will like compensate. And yeah, I mean, everyone's different like run whatever feels good. But I think being super duper fast on high speed rebound is maybe a bit unusual just because that isn't as much a personal preference thing as like how the bike reacts from like really deep hits. So you could try slowing that down and seeing if it's still usable for you. But. Speaker 1 There's also that, yeah. I mean, if he really wants to keep going experimenting further, you can depend on the fork, but there's a good chance that you can get a lighter rebound tune for it and you just get the damper revalved and have it try a lighter tune that might put you more in the middle. So then you could try until you get to an uncomfortable setup because yeah, I can see if you're you want to try more and there's only that one extra click. It's kind of like is there more? But yeah, I think that depending on your fork, but I know for sure Fox and Rock shocks definitely have different tunes that are available that you can get get that worked on at your local local shop or maybe need to send it out to get some service, but give you a try. And it's, I don't think that having depends on the rider, but we've definitely seen a trend for some riders to go towards faster rebound in the last. I don't know. 5-7 years or so. I know like Dakota Norton, I think he's got pretty crazy fast rebound of rider. Waite also plays a difference, not so much with Dakota, but lighter riders tend to, you can sometimes not be able to get the rebound fast enough depending on the air pressure. There's different things there. So if you're really light or even really heavy, there's those can those can come into play too. So depending on your, your rider weight might have an influence. Yeah, I chat with your local shop and see if they got some options. You might be able to to just try a different rebound tune, see if you like it. And then be curious what your shock is like too, like how you're running your rear shock. Just because those do, you know, they're influencing each other, the overall field of bikes. See where we're at on that too. Yeah, good. Speaker 3 Yeah, I think so, Yeah. I like, I often think of this more in like the shock realm just because we get review bikes with like, you know, a ton of different shock tunes all the time. That is often where I find myself like, oh, I'm at the extreme of compression or rebound in some direction and that's when maybe a different tune would make more sense. It's pretty rare that I find myself there with a fork, but everyone's. Speaker 1 Different, I know, like, yeah, like like even this year Matt was Matt had a rock rock fork where he was kind of rebound full open. Jessie Mae's experienced it before and Jessie Mae's definitely on the lighter side. So yeah, it's not uncommon, but I'll just do some experimenting and yeah, chat with a suspension tuner and see what they offer for options. But yeah, worth a try if you think it'll make your right experience better. Give a shot. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 1 Cool. Speaker 3 Well, should be a little music corner we. Speaker 1 Should probably do some music Corner. Yeah, we don't. Speaker 3 Have one for Josh because it's all I've been listening to and it would probably fit into the Dancing in the Forest realm. I've been listening to a lot of hard style trance from this guy named DJ Pastis. I would. I played it for some friends recently and they all described it as unpleasant to listen to but like I think it's kind of nice and calming. So it depends on how you're wired. It's just like thumping and repetitive but it does the job for me. So DJ past us. I think he's like Spanish or something, I'm not entirely sure. Speaker 2 Interesting. I'm going to keep keep the same vibes going. Well, other than listening to Upchuck because I've been listening to. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. But for this one, for Josh, it's a song called Berlin by DJ Carpet and sounds like what I imagine Berlin could sound like. And it's good. Speaker 3 It's sick. Welcome back to the Glastonbury Josh podcast. Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't really have. Well, what do I try to think about listening to any like? Speaker 2 Duff, Duff. Speaker 1 I don't even know, maybe I was listening to my old Moby the other day just because there was like the set Coachella. I think I already talked about it maybe, but there was one of the sets from Coachella where he played natural high with this singer and this guy like the voice is insane. So I think I might share it on the podcast. But if not, may I put a link of that because it's ridiculous. But I'm not the biggest Moby fan, but this in particular brought me back to like 1999. But I've been listening a lot of Mogui lately, recently just it's really easy for me to work, to like sometimes I'd like to have. Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure more. Speaker 1 Louder or like loud music but without vocals and so the hawk is howling. It's pretty good. Also, I forgot how good their song titles are. There's one on that. True The Sun smells too loud which is so good. I love it. Now open to the title track because I'm Jim Morrison. I'm dead. Yeah, if you haven't listened to any Magua in a while, I recommend it. Also, the new Drake albums suck like I hate. I don't like Drake. I decided. So that's my hot take. I couldn't. I came out with three albums the other day and I listen to him like this is not good. Three. He's busy. I don't know. Yeah, hit me up if you get. Speaker 3 Drake is the best one. Good album instead. Speaker 1 That would be nice, but I don't, I don't know, I think it was like the most streamed thing ever on Spotify or something, but I wasn't a fan. But I don't know. That's my my Music review for the week. But yeah, Magua is good. And then, yeah, I want to listen to you guys dance, dance party mixes. Speaker 2 Yeah, I sent it to you already, Kaz. Speaker 1 Awesome listening after this. Cool. Thanks for listening. Everybody keep sending those questions in. We'll get to more. And yeah, catch you next time. And check out the field test stuff if you haven't already. There's two videos and look at the bikes. And even if you're not in the market, just kind of interesting. Speaker 3 To see stuff, there's some positive fun times in the in the desert out there. You know, even if you don't want to shop for $1000 bike you can watch stuff, do a cannonball and a 360. Speaker 1 When you start planning your your trip to the desert, your fall trip to the desert, it's. Speaker 3 Getting pretty awesome, right? Speaker 1 Now, I wouldn't recommend it now November, like September through the end of the year is pretty sweet down in the desert. So check it out. All right, thanks for listening. Catch everybody next time. Speaker 2 Bye bye.