Tennis Performance Analyst Mike James on Data-Driven Coaching At The Highest Level + Working with Rune, Wawrinka, and The Very Best Players in The World

(upbeat music) - All right, welcome everybody to another episode of the Inside and Tennis Podcast. I'm your host Mitch Michaels. This is another episode on the Outstanding Believe Network and the Inside and Tennis Podcast is available wherever you get your shows, your podcast platform, the Choice App, the Spotify name, and we are into the month of March. We got Indian Wells coming up. We've got so much great tennis. And with this show comes the opportunity to talk to some smart and exciting people in and around the sport. The first time on the show, really pumped to have this person on it. It's been a while we've been circling each other, but he is one of the smartest minds with the sharpest minds. They're data driven. He's at the forefront of all the analytical stuff that you're seeing in and around the game. He's worked with numerous players. Been a coach for over two decades, which is hard to believe given how young he is. Working with certain players has been a part of the Moratog Academy. Worked with Holger Runa, worked with so many others. Mike James now on the show, working for Aura Cotennis now as well, which we'll get into. But Mike, welcome aboard. I'm really excited to have you on the show and chat with you. - Mitch, thank you so much. Actually after that introduction, I think you should be my agent. - Yeah, we'll see. I don't take that much for percentage, which is good. So we have that. - Talk after the show. - Yeah, well look Mike, it is great to have you on. And getting to know you through social media and getting to follow your journey as well. Always curious to how your backstory is, which I want to get into. But first let's start with you're being an Indian Wells right now. And in this world of tennis, right? In this world of tennis jet setting, you have to adjust just like the players do to the constant travel. So how are we feeling? How is the body clock going? How is it feel now? It's getting into March, but it still feels like it's been a monster season already. - Yeah, I know. I mean after I came back from Australia, I'd only just adjusted back to Europe in time and then we come out to the States again. So I started last week in Austin. So the jet lag preparation was done in Austin for me. And then obviously it's only a two hour time difference, I think, to Indian Wells. So it's a nice, nice to be in Indian Wells, not feeling getting up at 3 a.m. and wondering what to do. So yeah, I'm fully locked into the US time zone now. - Yeah, it's been interesting, right? Like we talked about this tennis players and their teams follow the sun. You're always just trying to catch that daylight and there's no warmer place. So when it's cooking in the Indian Wells, but I want to get into the story, I want to get into how you've kind of got into it. And as a British man yourself, right from Wakecaster and just looking at your story again, I referenced that you're only what, 41 years old and it's been a long journey, but you're upbringing in the UK. How did that go in terms of sports, in terms of discovering tennis? What was your childhood like at the first step of getting to you this point? - Yeah, 41 years young, I like to call it really, Mitch. (laughing) Yeah, I mean, I've had definitely not a normal journey and I think, you know, I'd like to think I'm sort of a bit of an inspiration for people that are getting into the highest level of the game that haven't been professional players. So it was always a dream of mine to be in professional tennis. And I really would describe my journey like it sounds a bit corny, but sort of from to to to all. So I've been coaching toads tennis ladies coffee mornings when I was a young coach at David Lloyd Commercial Centre. And then really, I mean, I started tennis at like the age of 10, so which is relatively late, right? If you want to be really good, loosely county level. And basically, I think the biggest sort of learning tool I can give to anybody out there, without, could I talk about my journey for two hours? So I'm going to keep it very light, hopefully, on the right direction. But for me, when I was working at the lower end of the game in terms of level, let's say, I was always searching out mentors. And I think this is really, really, really important. I think when now, you know, I'm not the finished article where I want to be, but I'm definitely closer to where I want to be. I get so many messages from people on Instagram, LinkedIn, et cetera, of young coaches. So, you know, tell me about your journey. How can I get to be where you are? And I always say to them, find a mentor, find somebody that you can lean on. You know, if you haven't played at the highest level, how can you like, you know, navigate and draw down from that? So actually, my career changed massively. I was working for the LTA Academy, a junior academy in the Midlands. And it's funny because what happened, and this was 2012, and the funding got cut from this academy. So effectively, I lost my job, just, boom. And I was like, right, I've got, I can go down to Pazzer. I can try to find another job in the Midlands and keep on that performance pathway with the juniors. Or I can pack my bags, take out a credit card and go and travel the world and try to, you know, latch on to people that have been there and done that and got the t-shirt. And I just moved in with my now wife, that area, and I've moved in with her after six months, I'm telling her, darling, I'm off the flourder for the summer, turning her money and she's like, where are you going? And I actually went to Boles High School in Jacksonville, Florida, and Shadow, Claudia Pistolazy and Brian Gottfried. Yeah. So Brian is a legend of the game in terms of, you know, his playing career and his coaching career. And Cloudy would coach so many cool players, Hanchikovra, Ballelli, Robin Soddling. So I was literally out in Florida, shadowing these guys. And, you know, really that was sort of the start of the journey to work in Pro tennis for me and what was fascinating when I was shadowing and I always talk about your, your of two eyes, two ears and more mouth. So you should be visualizing and looking more than you're talking and I'll definitely do that at the time. And you've got Brian saying, you know, when I played Beyond Borg in the semi-finals of Wemble Dern or Cloudy was talking about, you know, when you play Bobby's back, or whatever. And I'm like, what do I bring to the table here? Literally, what do I bring here, right? So that's when the journey started with me, that when they gave me the opportunity to start to write Mike, you're going to leave this session with these players in doubles and singles, et cetera. I started to latch onto the technology side because actually no disrespect for those two, but they're coming from a different generation and technology for them, like wasn't in the game, wasn't culturally in the game. So I started viewing sessions, doing video analysis on strokes on tactics patterns of play. And literally, I'm talking, I mean, compared to what I'm doing now, I think I describe, I'm using the iPhone 25 before everybody else right now. And what I was doing back in 2012 was like something out of, I didn't quite have VHS, but it was like the Stone Age. Yeah. Well, that's the timing too, right? Because if you think about it, Mike, timing is everything. And you had this, you know, serendipitous moment where you're shadowing two players, that have two players and coaches that have accomplished so much. But you're doing it at a time when technology is starting to bubble up on the surface. There was a lot of, you know, a lot of it was unknown, still in a lot of ways as unknown. But at that time, it was at the forefront of just starting to be a thing. So I guess the question to follow up I have for that, Mike, is where you always somebody that looked at the game and maybe outside of tennis just looked at things with that analytical lens? 100%. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, you, first of all, I've always been into technology, analytics, gaming, all this sort of side of things. And also looking at other sports, we're shoot soccer fan, huge Leicester City fan, 10 years ago they won the Premier League, which was the longest sporting odds in history, 5,000 to 1, from by proud of this. And I was looking at other sports. In fact, I was actually going into, I went into Liverpool's performance analysis department and Leicester City's performance analysis department. And looked at what were the football of soccer coaches doing? And it's so normal and integrated in football or soccer. I use both for the size of the pond. That you do the training, it's filmed. Then after the training, you're analyzing the training, you then decide what you're going to work on for the next session. And you're repeating that a loop. Now in tennis, the challenge we have compared to soccer is that they're playing two matches a week right, maximum. Maybe only one. So they play Saturday, team comes in Monday, they have the video review. OK, this is what we're going to work on guys throughout the week. They get to Thursday, this is the scouting for the next opponent. And that loop is nicely planned throughout the week. And I think it's the same also in NFL. But in tennis, we don't know when we're playing, how long we're playing for. How are we going to be playing? Incredible. It's incredible. I mean, when I was going into the performance and artist departments in those football teams, and I was explaining this, they were like, I mean, it's impossible for you to work there. And I was like, well, it's not impossible, but I don't get much sleep. Yeah. And this is what was fascinating for me at the time. And then started traveling with a Croatian player, anti-pavage, who, when Cloudy was a head coach, and I was sort of, under Cloudy was the traveling coach. And at the time, I think he was around 600. And we managed to get him to around 230. And that was going well. And then he decided to focus on the doubles route. And then again, my career changed again. Right. We had a coffee with Magnus Norman at the US Open 2017. And obviously, I was doing analysis of future players, challenges players. And just a casual coffee, just meeting him, with Cloudy, good conversation, nothing else. And then I'm in Lamanca, Spain on vacation a month later, and I had an email, members that lunch with my wife, and I had an email saying, type of Stan Vavrinka. Yeah. And I was like, OK, I've got to open the phone. That's not fair. And basically, he was like, hey, am I really impressed with the conversation I had with you back in New York? I would love you to really do a deep dive into Stan's game. And he's like, I've been coaching him-- I think it was like six years or seven years at the time. I've gone through this journey with him. He's gone to the pinnacle of the sport. He's one X, Y, and Z, the three grand slam world number three Davis Cup, all this. And now he's starting to go this way. I can't see what the difference was. And it was in times of confidential. So I was like, well, I've got nothing to lose here, right? Like, I can do this project. Nobody's going to know about it. For one of the best players in the last 15 years, if the coach thinks it's terrible, then no one's going to know about it apart from him. Confidential, yeah. Yeah. That's on my brain work. So it took me about six weeks of-- I mean, again, now I've manually tagging all of his matches, taking the data into Excel files, doing annotations, breaking it down. Did the shoes report? He flew me out to Good to Great Academy Stockholm. And I remember being in the Beyond Borg or Wimbledon sort of executive room in his academy, going through stands backhand. And I was like, this is surreal. This is like, I'm slid in the floor. And I'm like, oh my god. If he buys into this and he likes what I'm saying, then this is going to be unbelievable. And he did. So I was working with him for maybe one year, 18 months. Yeah, sorry, I have to talk with that. Oh, no, it's great. And I love Magnus. Got the chance to talk to him a little bit ago. The curiosity thing. I think that's part of it. These great players that have leaned on data and found a way to improve themselves. And their coaches do it by being curious and not settling. I think that's a great story leveling up to putting the time in, my getting to the point where you're busting, you're hustling. And then you get to working with one of the legends of the sport, literally dissecting one of the greatest shots in tennis history. But on the surface level, and there's people in other situations in tennis and otherwise Mike that are wondering, how do you get legitimized? How do you stay in the moment and try not to get overwhelmed by talking to players and people that are legends? How do you prove that you're belonging in that room? So what were your not secrets? But how did you handle yourself and prove, OK, I might just be an outsider, which I am as well. But I know what I'm talking about. And I can build a rapport with you over what I know. That's an incredible question. I mean, we're always talking about players staying in the present, right? And I think you have to be like that. I mean, first of all, I was well prepared. I mean, I'd really, really, really gone through his game. At that point, I'd almost got to the point where I was watching his matches. I knew exactly what was going to happen on every single point. So I'd really like over the top, over prepared. And then to be honest, the fact that it was a private meeting and nobody knew about it, I didn't feel there's any pressure on it. Because I feel like I have nothing to lose to work with someone on that level. And it was only a bonus if he agreed to work with me. So we worked sort of behind the scenes for the season 2018. I think Stan got back to around top 20. And then I set up my own company, Sport Eye Analytics at the time. And I thought, do you know what? Why not try to expand higher analysts and work with other players? And then Piotr Szerspitalski, great young coach who was coaching eager at the time. And then they just won the French Open. He reached out to me and said, would you come on board and work with us? So that was back end of-- that was through the COVID time, which was top, and then 2021. And then again, we were talking about the game of life, snakes, and ladders, and then whatever. Through that period, Sandra, who obviously coaches Marta, who you've had on the show, was head of Chumsley Foundation for Patrick Morbatoğlu. And I know the story now, obviously, I didn't know at the time. But she was having a conversation with Patrick saying, we need somebody that's going to be running the performance analysis and diving into this side of the game. This would be great. With the world's best academy, why don't we get somebody like this? And then I think she literally had a conversation with Piotr and then Unbinown Piotr sold me to her. And then I got headhunted by Patrick. And again, the email was even better this time, because email was like, hey, how are you? I hope all is well. Can you do a project on Serena Williams? And I'm like, this is-- OK, all right. And then I'm like, and it was like, can you show me how she lost against Angelic Kerber at Wimbledon, and then beat Angelic Kerber at Wimbledon? And then there's one other topic, which I cannot quite remember. And again, same process for me, like fine tooth comb, over and over again, diving into the areas, find some key. And I think the thing is, it's taking a lot of date points and a lot of information and condensing it to the point where it's actually actionable on a court for a coach. I think that's important. Yeah, I mean, that's great. You probably had to check to see if it was a real email, like you're looking over it. Like, is this fake? What's going on here? Incredible stuff. Yeah, and I think that last part too, especially before we get into the More Tagal Academy, Mike, it's that there's so much data out there and a lot of people, even coaches, will say, players, especially, that it can be overwhelming. So finding a way to know what to look for and that last part, you nailed it to condensing it. So that process, if you could elaborate a little bit on it, what to look for and how you can dance. I know players are different, but how you go about condensing and targeting data when there's just so much to choose from. Yeah, absolutely. And again, I'll have to sort of link into other sports in terms of when people or coaches are analyzing another sports, it's very regimented in terms of, like, well, I'm going to analyze the defense. I'm going to analyze the offense and et cetera. And then if you look at the offense of the defense and you look at the physicality of the athletes, if we take NBA or let's take NFL right. So the quarterback often or the running back or the lineback has the physique is often the same type, roughly right. In tennis, you've got Diego Schwarzenegger, John Isner. I mean, you've got two ends of the spectrum. There's a famous clip on YouTube with Doody Sallow and Eva Carlevich, where he takes the chair, he runs up to the net and he gets on the chair, hugs him, he's still not as tall as it. And you're telling me these guys are showing the same field of play, the same size, but one guy is this size and one guy is this size and you've got effectively metaphorically fight each other. So I was talking about phases of play. So you've got the serve, you've got the return, then you've got the plus one. And then after ball five, so the fifth ball of the rally, the serve and the return is negated. So it's now not affected the point as much. So now you're effectively playing out the hand. So this is a different, so after ball five, it's a different phase of play now. So it's a medium to long rally we're getting into now. You've also got to look at pressure points. So often, you know, we all, everyone knows, zero to four, 70% et cetera, but we've gone past that, well passed that now in terms of like, well, okay, what happens on pressure points? What happens when we've got pressure points often first, third percentage goes down. So therefore you're playing a second serve. The returner, the server mentally sets up differently because they're playing a second serve and the returner also sets up differently because they're hitting a second serve return. And often those points are longer rallies. So there's so many nuances to get into and that's without looking at the wall changes, the surface changes, the conditions, like we talked about off air in Indian Wells, if you're playing today, first on, it's 36 degrees, if you're playing the night matches, 10 degrees. So again, that's why the analysts in soccer were just mind blown because it's like, and the other sports, it's like NFL game, we're gonna play five PM on a Sunday for 16 matches a year, well, finish. I can't wait for more or whatever, but at least you know, like it's the situation. And in tennis, it's just a never ending C of navigating. So being flexible and adaptable is really, really important. - So expert level stuff, it's the hardest for from what you're telling me to balance all the elements and all the parts of the equation. But we got more with Mike James here on the Insight and Tennis podcast talking to one of the smartest minds in tennis, Advanced Analytics guy has been a member of the Moore Toggle Academy, coach several players and we're gonna get into some of that right now. When you might got to the Academy, you mentioned Sandra giving you that, you know, vote of confidence working for Patrick and just being on a breeding ground one of the premier academies in the world. What was it like having that up close experience? I know you've had that tennis experience working at academies, but being part of that team and witnessing all that talent up close and personal. How did you handle that experience and find your role in that regard? - Yeah, it was an incredible time to be at the Academy. We had a young Holger coming through, Coco dipping in an outlet, Linda and Brenda Foover-Tover, obviously Steph there. What a facility, what an atmosphere and when Patrick flew me out to his Academy in September 2021 to meet with him, I was so impressed with the guy's work ethic. I couldn't believe he was the first one in the building and the last one to leave. It was like, when I saw his energy and how much he was on the court and what he was doing, I was like, I've got to go and work for this guy. This guy's unbelievable. He's an energiser, he's an innovator. And I've got to say, the four years I had there was incredible and it just went so fast as well. I mean, I can not believe now that was four years and now I'm going into Oroco tennis. So I've got to say, Academy's not for everybody, but if you, it's like anything right, Mitch. If you find the right coach and the right team, it's not facilities that make players its people. So you can have the best facility in the world, but if you don't have good people around you, it really doesn't matter. You can have great people around you and being a terrible facility and still come out of it and make it alive in the sport, which also makes it very, very exciting, right? Yeah. I mean, it's so true. And the players, you name, I mean, Coco's kind of a unicorn in that regard, but they were players that grinded their way up, develop. And they had breakthroughs at different times, but it took laying the groundwork to get there. And one of them we mentioned, I mean, Holger, you got to be on the ground floor still doing tremendous work with him. I know he's considered you part of his tight circle, which says a lot about your role in the game. But what can you tell us about when it all came together at that Paris Masters in 2022? I mean, four top 10 wins. So that's something by the way, that five, sorry, five. I forgot one there. It's hard to imagine, but just the ability to do that and to keep it going, the joke of itch match, not withstanding. I think in some ways, Mike, that overshadowed some of the other wins, but how does a player like that put it together consistently against the very best in the world? Well, you know, again, you can call it lucky or white face like time, but I joined the academy. And the first player I really got integrated into the team fully was Holgers. And last Christian Sun, he was incredible. I described as an incredible teacher, a technique in the game. He's been coaching Holger since he was a junior, as we all know, was really into the data and the vision side. So I connected with him very, very quickly. And Holger was 103 in the world start of 2022. And my first tournament on the ground with him was Indian Wells. 2022, he qualified lost second round in three sets to Bevoteenie. I think Bevoteenie was top 10 at the time. And he has that record, only him and Novakav that record, where he won the San Raymo challenger in April and then took a car and played qualifying in Monte Carlo on the same day and won two matches in the same day. He won the challenger final and then won first round of qualis at Monte Carlo Masters in April. And that play season was when he really accelerated. So I think going into September, he was around 30 in the world, 31, 32, Patrick came on board. And there was an unbelievable synergy of energy, expertise, feeling. And it's funny that one because Holger didn't have a good US hard court swing. He lost second round, third round, haven't really clicked. He made final of Sophia 250, which was sort of a good result. I think he beat Yannick actually in the semi-finals in straight sets. But going to Paris, I mean, the story was he made final of Barzol on the Sunday, lost to Felix, who Felix was on incredible streak at that time. He tears it up in, though. Felix is always a threat at that time of year. I didn't go to Barzol, I went to Stockholm, I went to Stockholm, I went to the Cardo meet and then met the team in Paris right on the Monday. They basically traveled almost through the night from Barzol to Paris in a car. And Holger had a fever, a 40 degree fever. And he takes to the court against Stan on Monday night on the second court. That's by the way, that's the nine top 10 wins. So it was five top 10 wins plus Stan. That was the right. But and Holger knows this, and it's not that he doesn't know what I'm about to say, but like, he was like six, six, four, five, three, 15, 40 down with a fever. And I took my accreditation off my hoodie, in my back, the zip to my bag. And I had one butchiecoff the seat ready to go like he was done. Yeah. And he holds and then I said the rest is history. That week was incredible. If I go my memory, see beats Stan, then he beats to be, then he beats Rubilev. Yeah. And he plays Carlos and he was a set up and then into the second set tie break Carlos had some sort of abstract, but I was for sure thinking, hope was going to be in that day anyway. Then Felix in the semi was like the big one, right? Because Felix had been absolutely tearing it up. He'd been incredible. And when we get to Novak, Holger was like, I remember looking at him. He was just white. He was just like green. Like he used so much energy, but the adrenaline was still going with him. And that was incredible match. I mean, in the third set, he was 315, 40 down, 315, 40 against the greatest of all time. And the energy and the charisma from Holger at that period was unbelievable. But also it just showed that like a player in that period of his career, having no scar tissue and everything he's going for you is like that belief was like incredible from him. Down a set against the greatest of all time to find a way at his age was phenomenal. I do think the adrenaline factored into it. I think in a weird way, it was probably good. They were playing every day that he can just go right to the tennis the next day and just lock in on that adrenaline high. So for me, bring back those masters. They're the best ones. Every single day for the fans, it's like big matches every day. For the players, it's better. There's no, I mean, we're going onto the topic now with the two witnesses. It's so much down time. No, I know. I'm with you. But it's not going into that now because I'm not. Like in one last thing on Holger, Mike, just behind the scenes, like what we don't see, because there's a lot of people myself included that Marvod, his potential, thinks he could be because obviously, sinner and alchreas have separated themselves from the field and we're looking at contenders that who can challenge these two of the younger generation, Novak, notwithstanding Holger's name keeps getting brought up. What do you see? What have you seen behind the scenes? That's that special stuff with Holger, the stuff that you see away from the limewight and the cameras that he possesses that can challenge these guys. I mean, Holger's work ethic is second to none. His intensity is incredible. His thirst for knowledge, you know, I've had text messages from him at one AM asking about his strokes and forehands and spin rates and stuff like this. So he is so dedicated. He's such a great guy now. He's not a kid anymore. He's 23 this year. And, you know, I remember saying to him in Stockholm, 2022, I said, you know, when Novak had his first gun slam, Roger had 14. So, you know, people should forget that. And I think, you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint. And of course, he's got these two guys that have clicked that have found their way. They're not getting injured. They've got a smart schedule. They're playing an incredible game of tennis. I do believe Holger will get to that level and be competing with them. You know, I do believe that. It's a long run. We hope the best in his recovery and it's progressing nicely from the Achilles injury. So hope to see him back soon, challenging the best. And just on the other note of coaching for you, Mike, it's not just been male players who mentioned the women's side working with Linda Frutovra as you are right now in any well. And also, you know, you mentioned Sandra. I know Marda Kostuk speaks highly of you as well. So you got some support on the WTA as well. And it's good to kind of branch out and prove that you're not just tied to one player. Yeah. And I think also like it's a modern role, right? I think the game, you know, always need, I mean, again, like I talked about Patrick Erder earlier, who's an innovator. You know, I do say to people, I've probably had the best coach education in the world. In the last 10 years, I mean, you know, to be around Magnus, Patrick Boris Becker, Seventh Lutherie, Sandra, I mean, you know, if I missed that, I mean, it's it's incredible to sort of being the co-pilot to many coaches and also still be coaching. I think it's a very modern way to look at it. Yes, there'll be coaches and there'll be people that will be like, well, I don't agree with that. You've got to be an out-and-out coach or an out-and-out. I believe that the sport is about adapting and it's about being flexible. And I think if you think you can help somebody, then you try to help them, right? So, and I also think that the way coaching is going, we're probably getting into the Orocoside a little bit now, and the way the world is going with AI, you know, people are going to have to adapt because a tennis coach 20 years ago was a quarter basket of balls in a racket. Now, a tennis coach nowadays is a director of tennis, is a manager and has to facilitate all of the different disciplines that are going on with the player nutrition, lead recovery, analytics. I mean, everything is developing fast. I've noticed a lot of overlap, too. And I think that's a good thing, right? With your have coaches that are working with a couple of different players and they're finding a way to work with the camps. I do think too, and you bring up something else that I consider Mike as that being part of a team. Sometimes it's just solo one-on-one work. Sometimes with these players that have the resources and are, you know, going for the best, there's multiple voices, there's multiple people in there and you've been a part of that. How does that teamwork work in the process of your role, the data side, with the primary maybe coach and collaborating working and coaching as opposed to just a solo voice? Absolutely. Well, first of all, it's over-communicating. You have to over-communicate. Once the communication dropped too low, people start second-guessing each other. So I think that's super important. Of course, the number one thing is trust, and you have to trust everybody in the team. In terms of my role, and I'll give myself a bit of credit here, I have zero ego. I mean, I really, I'm just passionate and love the sport so much. I'm married to my wife and the sport, and so I'm married to two different things. And, you know, at the end of the day, I'm, you know, the, if I'm in a team like Holgers and you've got the head coach, my job is to provide evidence-based information that the coach can support his job or her job. And I think that's the number one thing, you know, evidence-based. Whether it's a scenario where a player has brought me in or coaches brought me in for pre-season to deliver a presentation because there's some, you know, there's a bit of this going on, a bit of tension going on, or it's just confirmed learning. So I was talking about sort of 80% that my role is confirmed learning. It's just confirmation of what the coach or the player feels. So it's just like we can run through a brick wall now because we know this is right. And then 20% of something on the GPS that they're not quite aware of that brings to their attention. And that's how I would see my role. For sure. No, it makes sense too. And I think being collaborative, checking your ego at the door, and just if you're part of a team and you're not the top, you know, leader voice, you are supporting the leadership and you're providing insight and you're saying, "Hey, this is what I see. Take it or leave it. This is just what I'm seeing." I did have one final follow-up on that though, Mike. And it's, you know, I'm putting myself in this basket too, but you mentioned presentations. I know you speak and you know, address the importance of data and tennis and how it can help. How do you challenge yourself and get better as a communicator to maybe people that aren't as data driven, that are curious, that are learning, but aren't experts yet. They want to be. They want to learn, but they're not at your level of understanding. Well, it's very easy. The first thing I do is go to them and go, "How can I help you?" There you go. I don't need your help, then it's conversation over, but most of the time, nearly all of the time the coach goes, "Well, I wouldn't mind knowing more about this or I think this is happening." And then all of a sudden away we go. It's not me coming in, putting on them, my view or what I think and this sort of stuff. It's really like, "Okay, what is the game development plan of the player? What is the vision of the finished article of the player?" And that can be a cooperative approach with the coach and the player and the physical trainer, etc. And then it's for me to create this GPS in this roadmap of your goal setting, your targets, microcycling and really reviewing and bringing this process, this sports science process into the team. And actually capturing, analyzing, sharing the information and then just keep repeating that process because in tennis we're very bad at like, "Okay, we're winning right now, so we're not actually going to look at anything." Or we're losing or we're in a panic mode and we're over dissecting everything. And actually it's somewhere in the middle all the time. Yeah, some of the best breakthroughs come on these losses that you learned something. And conversely, it's like, do you think Al-Kharaz or Savileika, whoever, they're just going to stop getting good, like they're going to be improving too. So just because you're winning now doesn't mean it's great. Yeah, it's true. I mean, that's the process side of it, right? Like the data is evolving, the players are evolving, you've got to keep, you know, better in yourself. So totally agree. And I think this generation of players, I've talked to a few physical trainers and psychologists and generally every player now that listens to this is going to hate me, but it's not my words. Concentration is not getting better. It's getting worse. And people are dissecting information in short, sharp bursts. So therefore, my role has been quite effective with, you know, we took about some of the names earlier that generally a lot of those players are under 21, right? That we're talking about to actually have an impact where you're showing them a video. And behind that is all of this information of data and everything, but you can show them a video that has an impact on the practice core. They see it, they visualize it, they go. And I think that's where we need to be in terms of long gone of the days where the player for pre-season was watching a DVD with a team going to bed for 10 hours and not being on the phone because the smart phone weren't there. Now it's a midnight and the dating apps and all these different things that are difficult to control. But again, that's probably another podcast. So if you're Gen Z, a DVD is how we used to watch movies back in the day before I get in, just, you know, for the Gen Z audience out there that has no idea what that is. A couple more things here with Mike James on the Inside and Tennis Podcast. I love talking to one of the sharp minds in the sport. Also is the head of coaching intelligence and strategy at Oracle Tennis and his doing some great things in that world. But before we get into that though, I want to ask you to, you know, I noticed you're how you look at the game and some trends you've noticed. And you know, one of the predictions that I have this on record, Mike, you said, you know, I think best of five tennis might be going by the wayside in a little bit. And we'll see where that goes, but what's your biggest, I guess, critique and flaw of that system and kind of how the men's matches are just turning into marathons and wars in these majors? Well, I mean, are you a traditionalist and you like, you know, one wooden has to always be white and we always have to play five sets and bloody, bloody, bloody, I mean, I go through phases myself in terms of like, well, I sit on that, but it really is a war of nutrition. These five set matches. I mean, some of the best matches that have ever been played have been five set matches, right? I mean, look at the French over last year, Rafa Rodge of 2008. The reason I said that, I've common one, I said that, but the reason I said that on record was because of just people's attention span, just of the way everything is going. The people are not, you know, I noticed it when I've been in Holger's matches in long matches and I see the crowd, you know, after the third set or whatever, you know, they're leaving and they're going off and they're hoping it's gone into a fourth and they're coming back for the fourth set. So they just don't even watch a set. And again, you know, yeah, it's going to be interesting in terms of, I mean, the slams have the record attendances and all this sort of stuff, but look at Australia this year, I had record attendance, but it wasn't people watching tennis. It was people with party, DJ, Trumps, somebody thing and socializing. I think the tennis was actually secondary. I think what Craig has done in Australia is incredible, but actually five set tennis watching that for four or five hours, I'm not sure whether that's the future. Well, in terms of, and I do think it's a valid conversation to have, right? I think there's the attention span side. There's also the player side, player health and making sure they're okay. One of the topics, and I believe you've commented on this before, is the tennis ball situation. Do you see that as an alarming problem across the tours that the balls are changing, and it's a tournament and, you know, some, I mean, I'm not going to call out names, but some are just not viewed as tour worthy. Well, maybe the, well, it's funny to say that because Indie was now, we don't have the balls that they used to use. That's just not said the brand, but they're not here this year. It's done a lot. And that's amazing. They're actually now through the swing. We're going to have the same ball. So I think the tours are actually doing the best to make the ball consistent. And I think, you know, surfaces change. These hard courts are totally different to Austin last week, but if you have the same ball and the player is feeling the same velocity on the racket, you know, and the same quality, then I think that makes a huge difference. So I think they are trying to do their best. I think actually it's more the tournaments having the ownership in terms of dealing with contract sponsors, but I think we're getting there in the right way now. And finally, right now, I agree with that. I just, we want to see the best players out there. I know some injuries like, old girls are certain things are going to happen. It's unfortunate, but the shoulder stuff and the players are the ones hitting balls every day. You want to listen to their voices and just make sure this physical sport does the best to protect them. So I love to hear that we're, you know, making strides and getting there in your role too. And I mentioned it right. Like you've been coaching for so long now you started, you know, at the turn of the century, basically, and now we're getting into 2026. Yeah, I got to do it yourself here a little bit, but what are some of the trends you've seen in terms of how the games changed and from an analytical standpoint or just how tennis has played the biggest trends that you've seen changed with the game of pro tennis? Yeah, well, I think if we're talking about the two things, I think for the the female game now, if you're going to be a top 10 player, you've got to move unbelievably well. Like, I mean, the three best moves for me and the women's game are our cocoa, Marta and Eager, or you absolutely melt the tennis ball, which is Sublencher, Ribakina and Isomova. So they're the two areas that are going to create and be at the top of the game. Either you negate the power because you're an unbelievable mover or you deal with an unbelievable mover because you can overpower them. I think in the men's game, you know, the trend of an all court player. I mean, you've got, you've got under scenario with, with Sinner is Novak 2.0. So he does everything Novak does, but he does it slightly faster and slightly quicker. Okay. Then you've got Carlos that effectively can manipulate the tennis ball better than anybody I was probably that I've ever seen. In terms of when Holger played him in Wimbledon, quarter final of 2023, the variety of the serve speed, totally through us. We were not fully aware that he was adjusting the serve speed and the spin. In three quarter kick for serves, the second serve, increasing it to sort of, you know, 200 kilometres sometimes. And of course, his drop shot at one point Carlos was hitting 80% of his drop shots after the serve. So what was interesting about that is people think the drop shots coming later in the rally, you know, the players were at the player off the court and then they put the drop shot in, but he was doing it immediately and his success rate was almost close to 80% at the time. Now, a normal success rate for hitting a drop shot is just over 50%. So Carlos was like near 80% on this and it's ridiculous, but of course he was doing it immediately. So he's going kick serve, we turn her back so up and then immediately putting it in. Now I don't think he's doing that as much now, but again, the trends, you know, come often with surfaces and balls. Then you then get a trend setter right, you get a player that like everybody wants to copy. So everybody's wanting to copy Novak over the last, you know, 15, 20 years. He's the most copyable player. I've raffer Roger Novak. You can copy Novak more than Roger and Raffer, right? For sure. So that answers your question there. For me, the big trends and what I'm seeing in terms of like the top of the game, you know, if you're going to, if anyone's going to break through into that elite level, you know, I could say that the movement has to be incredible. And that's why there's some players, you know, I don't want to throw any players into the bus, but there's some players that are being hyped or big up in the men's game. A few younger guys, but I just don't see the movement there. Without the movement, I don't see them and they don't have the power. So I don't see them breaking to the elite level, you know, so of course you always get the anomaly like a Medvedev or someone like that who's incredible and is away, but that's just like one in a unicorn. Yeah. Now it's that's some great stuff there at Highlights that it is a copycat league in a lot of ways where you see Joe Kovic and you want to try to do what he does. Alcharez showcasing his mind in that Wimble then match and you know, the movement side of things and the women stuff. I think it's interesting because I agree with everything you said, right? There's elite movers. There's just people that absolutely pace the ball. I think in those individual matchups, it's funny. A great mover versus someone that hits the snout out of the ball, love those matchups. Maybe not as big of a fan of mover versus mover, but I actually think when you get Rebecca Savochenka to two women that just blessed the ball, it actually produces some good tennis. So that's just my observation of what is enjoyable as a fan, you know. Yeah, I love the whole offense versus defense sort of times. You say I mean, obviously Kovic's won her two gossums against Serena and they've been fascinating because Serena's played an on the game style and Kovic's slowly worn her down to the point where she's overhitting and overpressing and then you know, Kovic's got on a point of the match. Well, before I let you go, Mike, I want to ask you about the current role we're in the hat right now, or a coat tennis. I mean, you leave the academy on great terms. You have a lot going on, but then you pick up this role ahead of coaching intelligence and strategy at or a coat tennis. It seems like a match made in heaven, but how did you come to this role and what exciting stuff are you working on? Well, again, you know, I left the academy with nothing, just did the old LinkedIn and Instagram posts and then Shane Lee and Arge called me who is an amazing data scientist and analyst who's working with Arena on Jiber and he had a company called Data Driven Sports Analytics and he called me and says, I'm being emerging with Oroko. I had no idea about Oroko at the time. Oroko is an AI athlete management system and they're working in multiple sports in soccer and BA, etc. This was like, again, unbelievable to listen to this because I'm like, hang on a minute, and now we've got real quality sports science with athlete management to the tennis side and they're marrying with each other and I was like, okay, let's talk. Just to give you some of the technology that we've got available and there's many different areas we've got, but what we are in terms of Oroko, running an NBA. So in NBA now, we're running like skeletal data live, which we also get in tennis right. And what's happening is, let's talk about like Holger's injury. Holger's injury would have had a misfire in the brain at some point during that match where his running gate would have changed and we would have seen that with the AI before he knew that that Achilles was going to go. So you would have known that he was about to tear his Achilles in. Yeah, but in tennis, you know, you can't get hold of the live skeletal data you get it after. So we have the skeletal tracker and marker where we take the Hawkeye data or ball tracking data and then we can see. So potentially, unfortunately, like if, you know, after the etch of very match, I'd have checked his skeletal data, which we're doing with players now and I've seen his running gate changed, that would have flagged up potentially and injury could have been coming in the next match. And in NBA, what NFL, what they're doing is the analysts sees the live match, the skeletal data. So it's like a stickman for the viewers back home. It's like you're looking at the player, but it's like a stickman is over the player. That would go amber or red, which effectively is telling the analyst there's something going to happen to the player here. The analyst tells the coach and what does the coach do? They substitute them. Wow. That could be saving them millions of dollars because now instead of pulling a calf, a hamstring or an Achilles, they're pulling them off and they're saving them, resting them when we cover them, which is incredible. So that's just one side of the quality that we have in looking at players well-being and diving into it. And I think you touched on it early about the physicality of the five sets and injury rates and look at all the withdraws on the WTA tour in Dubai. That's where we really are going to have the full 360 package for professional players, which is the health management side, the biomechanical side and of course the tactical and the analysis side to help the win more, but also looking at training loads and really making sure they are staying on the F1 track throughout the year without getting injured. Wow. Well, that's really impressive. I mean, it's going to do a lot of great things and we know that data might not be all the way there and the self-aware and society might not all be there to put it together, Mike, but having people like yourself in this position to just keep the athletes healthy, right? Because that's what we want. And we want to see the trends that are going to elongate these great careers. So that's awesome. That's just powerful stuff. Yeah. And my challenge really is to be educating people on this because it's like I'm coming for the moon a little bit to some people and it's like the best teams and there's one particular player that we've got it really in good synergy and we're working with it at the moment that like has the full 360 package and I think that's keeping that person at the top of the game and is going to keep them staying there because I think if you look at the best players, they are always evolving. They're never satisfied with where they're at and that's why they stay there. Absolutely. That's Mike James here on the Insight Intensive Podcast. It's been a blast talking to you. He's got players that we can't get into that are seeking his counsel. So we'll just leave it at that. There's a lot of people in and around the sport top players, top coaches that come to you for info, for insight, testimony to your journey. Mike, this was fun. All the best going forward. I hope to catch up again soon, but always a pleasure to sit here. You talk and learn a lot. So thanks so much for appearing on the Insight Intensive Podcast. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Mitch. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. That was Mike James. This was the Insight Intensive Podcast. We are again available on all your podcast platforms. Apple Spotify, I heart, Amazon Music. Let's go to your podcast platform, a shirt, cup of choice. Search Insight Intensive Podcast. Click subscribe so every episode is automatically downloaded. And I'll leave a nice rating and a review if you're so kind. We're also available on YouTube, the YouTube channels at Mitch Michaels for full video episodes with Mike and his, our tons of great guests coming. It's going to be a great, great summer spring of tennis. So for Mike James on Mitch Michaels, this was the Insight Intensive Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. And I'll talk to you soon. [Music] If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.