Telling Indigenous Stories: from pre-colonization science to difficult truths

(upbeat music) - Well, it was a chilly late winter evening. Recording on the land to the Blackfoot Confederacy, Soot and the Nation, Ithka in a Code of Pristnation, and more recently, the O-Temp, the Blackweed TV. And the Ancestral Science podcast was grateful to speak with Chattis Leop, from Homelco and Stiligwamish Nations, a journalist and TV and podcast host amongst many other things. Check out his pod our new land. We'll talk about that later. But we chatted about his passion for being an indigenous journalist and how he balances those time constraints with indigenous protocols. His dream story that he would like to cover, the courage needed to tell the truth and artifact or ancestor remetriation. We heard more about his soon-to-be-lodge graphic novel, named Homelco Hero Stories, a graphic novel that shares stories of his ancestral lands before and after colonization. We even dug into the science within these stories that includes food preservation and sensory hunting to clam digging in relation to moon cycles and sand storage. So grab maybe some smoke salmon, cozy up with a cup of tea, and join us in being inspired by the talented Chattis Leop. - Okay. Okay, welcome to the Ancestral Science podcast. Thank you so much for being here everyone to listening. As of course, we always start with protocols. For everyone listening, I know you're going to hear something cool that you definitely will probably want to share. And if you want to pass that on, please remember that it's really important to follow those protocols of knowledge transfer by connecting those teachings to the elder, the knowledge keeper that's keeping those teachings as well as referencing the land that they're from. And this process ensures that teachings stay with the humans and the land protecting against appropriation and hand indigenization. And this is just saying, any of the knowledge, it's not mine, it's not the podcast, but it is connected to the humans and the lands that gift it with that. As always, it's just all the stuff that share just a little tidbit of the knowledge, the greater indigenous science knowledge that is within indigenous knowledgees and teachings to be gifted or truly authentically understand these knowledgees is to be in deep connection with the land and cosmos and culture and elders and ancestors. These relationships take time, relationality and humility. So let's not tokenize these knowledgees because they're the original, the OG science. So all the science is originated from a human that has deep connections with the specific land, somewhere on this planet, so that they could survive and thrive. And that's where we are today to learn about indigenous science. So with that, following protocols, Charles, can I offer you tobacco for your time in your wisdom here today? - I would absolutely accept that gift of tobacco for sure. - Hi, thank you. And with that, I will offer you space to introduce yourself in your own way. - Thank you so much, Eamot. I just would thank you so much for taking the time to reach out and allow me to be on your show today. My name is Chatticellio. I am an indigenous from my father's side, both from Humalku First Nation, which now resides on Vancouver Island and traditional lands going up to church house in Budinlet. And I'm also indigenous and from the East still warmest tribe of Indians from the state of Washington, just below us here from my grandfather as well. So my indigenity is both Native American and Native Canadian. And my mother is South American from Peru and Argentina. And so I'm quite the mix. And that's my background of, I'd like to call myself a res dog sometimes 'cause you're just like, who does eat? Like it can't only tell. But anyways, old jokes aside, I, that's my background in who I am. And I'm just really happy to be here. And I'm on Laquangan Territory, traditional Laquangan Territory here in Victoria. And I live in Lady Smith with my beautiful wife and my son. And I'm also here on the island with my parents, her parents and her sisters, well too. - I'll say in the, the Rainy Vancouver Island. - Rainy Vancouver Island, for sure. I'm sure it's raining outside as we speak. We call it BC Liquid Sunshine over here. - Oh, I like that. - Send my positive when it's raining outside, so. - Oh, I'd like that. Yeah, what would we say that here for the muddy, slushy, shinnokki, whether that we have here at Calgary. - I don't know how pretty you can make it sound, but you're trying, that's okay. - We also have a member of the Plod team, also supporting the episode here today. Alex, do you want to introduce yourself? - Yes, hello. My name is Alex Flett. I'm from Whiskey Peak in Manitoba. I've been in Calgary for about, oh my god, it's been like 13 years now. That's great. - Oh, you're so cool. - I can't say 10 forever. You know you get, when we were, no, I've been here for about 10 and then 10 turns to 11, but you still say 10, all of a sudden it slips out. - Now you can say over a decade. - Over a decade. Yes, there we go. Now I moved out to the next thing. Yeah. - It's like when you turn 40, you're always 40. - Yeah, yeah, kind of exactly. Yeah, that's me. Happy to be here. Happy to talk to Chados. We met at the pod summit last year in Calgary. It's a great opportunity. And just happy we can continue with our conversation. - For sure, it was great to meet you guys there. It's, yeah, that was a really cool podcast summit that was organized. And I'm also part of it this year as well as on the advisory board, which is great. And I'm looking forward to going back this year too. - Silly. - Oh, it's a great conversation. I learned so much. Which is always fun. So, bye. So you're a journalist, is that what we're gonna say? Is that the. - Yes. - How you call yourself? - Yeah, I guess that would be the layman's term of it. I mean, if we were to get very specific, my main full-time job would either be a VJ or a multimedia journalist. So that's a type of TV journalist that goes out and gets the story, films the story, interviews the people, writes it and edits it all in one day, usually before it goes to air. So it's kind of like taking the job of what used to take two or three people to do and you're doing it as one person. So that would be my main job here at Check News Victoria. And yeah, but I mean, like you said, journalists is a pretty easy bubble term for it as well. I'll say TV reporter, sometimes I do it in VJ. People say I'm a VJ, but then again, you got to explain it. So I try and use the words that are more descriptive, like journalism or TV reporter, but yeah, VJ, if somebody's in the industry or being in it, they'll know what it means. So. - I just realized VJ, and VJ, that was just like much music. - Yeah, so then if yeah, so VJ, like oh, this guy works like much music and that's not, sounds fun, but not the case. - Yeah. - Oh, it's Aged Myself more. - Yeah, yeah. - So I was gonna, how did you get into that? Like what started your interest in that field? - Yeah, that's kind of a, that's a great question. It's a two-part question, two-part answer rather, 'cause the first part was when I was younger. When I was about 12 years old, I picked up a camcorder that my mother had given me and I was just kind of playing with it and had the little tapes in there and just kind of learning how to use it, having fun with it. And then the TV station, local non-for-profit TV station, camcorder ever came to our school, did like a presentation at our elementary school and sorry, middle school rather. And then they said they'd take on one or two student community filmers every year or every couple of years. So I asked if I can do it, we had a chance to meet, they said yeah, you can come and volunteer one, two days a week. So that initial interest of just wanting to be in the community filming. In that case, I wouldn't call it journalism but long-form community coverage, I would say. That was kind of where my love sparked for this. And where I didn't really feel like work, it was just kind of like a hobby that I was doing as much as humanly possible. So that's where I started. Skip right through to leaving Cam Worver after the station was sold to Shaw when I worked for Shaw as the youngest production system the country had 18 years old. And then I throw that in there. And then yeah, I had a break in between that job and this job that I have now, I was in the car industry. I was doing a lot of acting as well too. Still do that as well. And then I was in the hospitality industry. I owned and sold the restaurants. I owned a driving company. I've worked in hotels and management and then just like that COVID. I just like anybody else COVID hits and then lost my job, had to let everybody go and then lose my job. And yeah, that's when I was with my wife and we were just trying to figure out she was like, what's that one thing you used to do that didn't feel like a day of work in your life? It was when I was a teenager with a camera in my hand and being in front of the camera and talking to people and giving people platforms and making stories. So COVID really sparked the real cause. for journalism, which is, okay, now I'm gonna go to Burnaby. I'm gonna go to school even though, you know, I'm in my 30s and everybody there's 20 and I'm just gonna push through and work as hard as I can to get where I need to go. And now I'm just, yeah, last month would have been two years here as a full-time journalist that checked news just doing my dream job. Bet. Love it. Like, it's almost like what have been she done? You sound like my wife when she's trying to like figure out my job description when I don't do. Um, yeah, no, I do evolve around the media a lot. Like, like I said, I do act in as well too. I, you know, make documentaries when I can. I'm being pitched in some other ideas. I do some executive producer consulting to work with some friends of mine that's an Indigenous film company here on Vancouver Island. And then obviously, besides being a full-time journalist here, check I'm also the host and of the TV show Our Native Land, which is also a podcast. So yeah, lots of lots, yeah, check it out. Yeah, plug. And so yeah, so it's, I lose, I sometimes forget all the different things I'm doing because I'm just trying to focus on one thing at a time and not split my brain in five ways every five seconds, but still working on it. You're doing great. You love us. Thanks. Okay, lots of things. We're going to get into some science. You ready? Okay, let's, let's do it. So question, I ask everyone. What is science to you? Science is the pursuit. For me, it's the pursuit of trying to find definitive answers. As a journalist, that's really what, what our job relies on, especially in the media landscape that we're in right now, we're really battling that sense of, you know, what am I reading? Is it real? What am I seeing? Is it real? Is it AI generated? Are they using the AI a little bit to make it seem like it's real when it's not? There's, it just, it keeps expanding every single day about people's hesitation of what is real and what's not real. So for me, science is especially when I do get a chance to do, you know, journalism disorder and sorry, you know, a regular newsbeat story or an indigenous story that revolves around science. I really like that because it helps me lean on that because that's our job as journalists is to bring those voices in to show an idea or something that's happening. So science is the pursuit of what is reality and what is real to the best that those scientists can prove. And I like using their smart brains and data and putting it into our stories to make it make sense in a palatable way to everybody who's either watching the show or who's watching, you know, a journalism piece. Fascinating. I think it's, and you mentioned this before about how, how do you find that in journalism that you, you know, if you're covering an indigenous story, indigenous science story and almost using global western science as a validation. Is that something that you find or not? Sorry, not assuming that you're doing that, but is that something that you find that it happens? I mean, I'm mostly doing that because one thing we need to do is, is journalists in this area as we are looking at academia and talking to those people that are actively working in that field on that specific topic, you know, sometimes those fields will interject with, you know, indigenous organizations and groups and elders that are, you know, a part of this community, whether it's around, you know, the University of Victoria, down the Rose University, the relationships with the nations in this area seems quite good. Again, I'm not from either of them, but based on that, you know, I feel the sense of security that if I am talking to, you know, an academic person that is not an indigenous working in a colonial, you know, system of an institution that they're doing enough to try and find a connection between what they're doing and also building that relationship with the nations around here, especially when it comes to environmental studies and working with the land and the animals and the plants. Rose Rose University is an example where they have a, you know, indigenous plant garden and they're actively working, you know, with, with elders to make sure that the teachings are both scientific, but also scientific and indigenous way, too. Absolutely. Alex, do you have a question? I think that connects with this. Yeah, you know, I find it interesting trying to bridge the two worlds and involving like, quote, unquote, "brooth," you know? So as a journalist, I know it's more than that, but as a journalist, a principle that I believe journalists have is trying to find the truth, right? The pursuit of truth. And with an indigenous ways of knowing, a lot of truth isn't as easy as just black and white. A lot of it can be gray. And my question is, how do you navigate both worlds trying to pursue monocoat the truth? Yeah, that is an excellent question. And I'm going to try and answer it in the best way I can, you know? Like you said, with journalism, we are actively trying to find the truth, you know? And despite what the rhetoric you might hear online of people that may maybe don't like traditional, you know, news media outlets, you know, that's where we don't do this job, we seldom speak for myself. We don't do this job because I want to go out and find a version of it that I think is interesting to tell somebody. It's like, how do I get all angles of this story to present it to somebody like the viewer and let them make their decision? So when it comes to, again, indigenous truths, these take time, they take patience. We all know when we're speaking with elders, it's all about building that relationship and listening and not talking and focusing on the matter at hand. And that's difficult for journalists because we like to talk. And we like to, you know, we're presenters in a way as well too, but in this pick format, you know, with traditional news media, we have about two and a half to three minutes to put a very small finite of information in a small time frame. And it's hard to get that truth of what elders are saying and get their full thought out because sometimes it's a minute long. And I can't put a minute long of an elder talking and a clip because I do need to talk about all aspects of the story. So it is a challenge. Ways that we've adapted that check as well as sometimes I'm a lot of more time to do these stories. So although the, and sometimes we extend it. So an example was going out to the Diddy.Tourist Nation last year and I did a four part series and was able over a three month span take 70 minutes or prime time TV to tell their truths and their version of what's going on and then balance it obviously with government voices and, and, and, and businesses and, and other people that may disagree. But we try and find ways like, okay, if it's something that needs to be told in long form, let's find a way to do it. And so we've, we've been able to do it in that way sometimes if the story warrants it. And another way that I find that I can give space for those truths that are coming from, from our knowledge keepers is through the show. And I'm one of those fortunate journalists or maybe very few journalists, if not very little, that also has this platform of this TV show podcast to do a 22 minute show. And 22 minutes is, again, sometimes still enough, not enough time, but it gives enough time to really let those teachings, learnings and any of the truth behind the science of those learnings really resonate and breathe within those 22 minutes and are also brutally interrupted with commercials to make it a half hour. I have a follow-up question. Oh, sorry, Corey. But I was just like two to half to three minutes. You don't, that is not a lot of time. I just realized it's not a lot of time. Yeah. And I don't think people realize it that it's like it is a short story. But when you're watching the news for that, like, oh, the news is an hour, but then you realize there's so much within that hour. So you only have a certain amount of time to really push it. Interesting. I'll go ahead. You had mentioned that last year you had worked with a community and made a four part series with them. And a part of that aspect was in order to make sure their voices and thoughts were fully heard. How do you feel that a story regarding communities and people would be interpreted if you only had two to three minutes instead of that four part series? So that story specifically, how do you feel that would have changed? How do you think the world would have interpreted that if they would? Yeah. Sure. I think, yeah, that's a great question. I've never really had anybody asked me, well, you get all this time, but what if you didn't? That's a really good question. My goodness. I mean, the perception of it, I think, is people wouldn't have a chance to connect and really understand the background of why the story is so important. So again, the main crux of it was there's potholes on the road. They're not getting fixed. There's one road in and out of the community. And there's no access to get in and out. out every time there's a sinking hole or a tree falls over the road. So, you know, in crux, it would be like, you know, maybe the general, the general population, but like, we'll just fix it. If the government doesn't want to do it, then maybe the nation just pays for it or, or like, just people come to these quick conclusions. So I'm struggling to give you an answer or I know what what I would do, but I would just, I would really just summarize everything in the two and a half, three minutes I have. And then if I didn't have that extra time, I would go onto my web story and write the article even bigger. So instead of usually maybe I write like, you know, 250 to 400 word, you know, a web page with all the details, I would probably spend a lot more time writing to really get the information across. So I would try and find other platforms if I didn't have enough air time to do it. But luckily, I haven't ever been in that situation yet, but I can only imagine maybe some other news outlets, maybe don't have the aspirations that we do to give that extension. I'm just speaking solely on my opinion, obviously, but we really put in the time to give the time when it needs it. That's really nice. Oh, sorry. I feel like I keep interrupting. I'm so sorry, Corey. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I don't know how many people do it, but I think there's a lot of appreciation that even if that time isn't there to fully air it in the media, you still take that time to make sure their voices are represented through typing it out, writing it out, sharing it on your website, whatever the case may be. And a lot of that, a lot of that time started in Trump isn't really necessary. The filming time or the writing time, the end time is the travel. This is like an example of remote community, you know, from Victoria where we work here to this community takes over three hours. And you know, like it's a login or like it's part of it is the effort and the willingness to do it first is also time consuming takes time away from me doing other stories and work in here in the newsroom. So there's more elements to it, too, besides just, you know, spending the time listening to an elder, it's the effort, the scheduling, the resources to get there in the first place. Absolutely, yeah, no, the intention is there. And it's that kind of also ties into protocols with intentions. And so with having so many different communities, where you work, how do you go about dealing with protocols because that's kind of a truck, a tricky area. So if we go to someone's community and we're talking about knowledge or whatever the case may be, are we following the protocols of the community, the protocols of yourself, how do you navigate protocols working with different communities and people? That's a great question Alex. Like you said, there's different protocols for different communities. I really spent a lot of time on this side of my desk working on it to be honest and building those relationships because, you know, I still got to push out a story every day because that's my main job. But at the same time, I am trying to build those relationships. And I really just try and find those moments in the day where I'm not doing anything. She's rare, but when I find those moments, I really decide, who do I want to build a relationship next? Who do I want to build that bridge and that gap between traditional media and indigenous communities that have enlisted mistrust in the media because of the way that we've been portrayed since media existed in this country? So I like, I like, I think it's my passion to do that. And because I love doing it, I think that's how I manage different protocols. So again, there are some nations like a protocol where we come in or we want to come in and they're like, hey, we want full creative control. And we'll decide whether it goes to air or not. In that case, I can't do it because it's just not how we work. We have to be a neutral newsroom and make sure that everybody gets a fair chance and if we need to be in control to make sure that it's balanced. So sometimes protocol doesn't work out. We'll say, well, our journeys aren't going to connect this time, but maybe next time. And then there's other protocols like, well, we just need you to do this and just come and meet the elders or have a meeting with the chief and just build that connection and then we can move forward. So really is just being patient, being okay with not getting an answer back. Being okay with saying no, being okay, that it's going to take four months, like in this case, to go on the west coast. So from the moment I engage with the community and the chief to the moment I was able to walk onto their land was almost four months. Yeah, we had a massive protocol conversation today. We have with about media, which is interesting. It's on the forefront of our minds right now. But I'm curious when you're saying, when you're, you know, when you have a story and you're trying to look at the multiple perspectives of that story. Has there been a story where you're uncomfortable telling it or it's, you know, to be indigenous and telling a story, whatever that may be and trying to be neutral. But does it affect that maybe, you know what I'm trying to say? Is there something that's made you uncomfortable? You didn't want to share it or you couldn't or you just refused to share it? Or do you've been in that situation? Yeah, I have been in that situation. And it usually nine out of 10 times revolves around a story that is related to residential school. And it's really dependent on the person I'm interviewing and the focus of the story because there's several different focuses when you talk about residential school stories. It's usually something happens or something happens within the government. Like there's different versions of it, depends on who I'm talking to once about. I've never been to the point where I'm uncomfortable that I can't film it or that we can't publish it. I definitely feel uncomfortable when I'm, when I just want the person to feel that I'm listening and that I care. And that even if I can't get all of this on air that I hear you and I'm listening. The uncomfortable part is putting the story together after an airing it and just hoping that I did it justice for not only the person who shared and for their hard out of what happened to them, but also to everybody else to understand it in a way that's balanced and that they care and can formulate. You know, formally, they're they're opinion on the piece. So yeah, nothing overly like I get uncomfortable when I hear the details, but. I don't want to I think uncomfortable has a maybe a negative connotation because I'm willing to do it. I chose to be there. I chose to be a part of that situation to make myself uncomfortable because, you know, that's some of the best stories that ever get put out. On in this world, make people uncomfortable, you know, if everything was just. Dandelions and roses, nobody would watch the news. You know, like news, news is for people that want to see a variety of what's happening in our community, whether it's indigenous or not, whether it's painful or happy or sad or mad. And so I'm always willing to to put myself in that situation, even if I'm uncomfortable and make sure that I get their story told. Yeah, yeah, I think those those moments of discomfort, those that's really important because it means you're, you know, outside of your. Those comfortable parameters that we know every day, right? For sure, for sure. And that's, you know, sometimes I think, you know, in the past, maybe we've made these stories more palatable to the general population where it doesn't share all the details. But you know, that's obviously changed over time. How, how do you think that's changed? Is it, is it like the, the audience has changed or the media has changed? I think, yeah, I think survivors, indigenous advocates, First Nations, Chiefs are just more willing to be louder and not scared of the backlash. And so because of that courage and that willingness to push and really speak their minds, I think that's why the climate is changing on how maybe uncomfortable some of these stories may be. Again, this is just my opinion, but you know, obviously when it's when the, you know, 215 potential and my grades were discovered, again, you're seeing that journalism part where I haven't put the word potential and that which is controversial. But, you know, it's, it's, I think in that moment, you know, indigenous people felt like, OK, here it is. This is out. And if you didn't believe it now, then take a look at this information now and how do you feel now? And I'd be very careful how I'm saying this because, you know, I, I don't like it's such a sensitive topic and I don't want to offend anybody. and we have to. to listen to everybody's story. And I think I'll leave it at that as we definitely need to do everybody a favor and listen to everybody's story no matter who they are. - That way. (whistling) - Ooh, I think I see a coyote in my backyard. Well, go on, I gotta go take a picture. (upbeat music) - The story tellin' is so important to indigenous history. Our native land tells those stories. - Really historic place, Tinless. It means calm waters. - Didn't even know one name, not one. - Being out of nature is where they want to be. - I want to inspire people that love to see smiling faces after people try their food. - New season of our native land, January 4th on Check and Check Plus. Supported by Royal BC Museum. - Okay, okay, that was fun. Not to hang out with the coyote. Dog didn't like it, but that's fine. That was great. We got lots of ancestors in the neighborhood. Sorry, please continue. - Yeah, absolutely. I think with those, I'm thinking of protocols and you know, with media, with video and even audio recording, you know, there's almost, I don't want to say taking of knowledge, but it's a preservation of knowledge, let's say, and especially traditional knowledge. And are there things that you, you know, if you like draw the line on, I don't want to film or I don't want to talk about this, like how we were talking today about like filming smudge and how that's, you know, like how do you navigate that? Or maybe there's, you're working with an elder, like I was just saying, you know, doing some work I've done with film and working with elders and there's some elders that want this and some others that want this. And it's like, I don't know how to navigate that. How, how have you approached that? - How have I kind of like navigated what to film not film is that kind of a question? - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, I mean, like it's funny. I was just the other day filming, you know, the most, not funny, but I was coincidental. I was filming the Missy Murder Indigenous Women March here in Victoria, and I'm interviewing somebody, then there's a smudge in the background, and it's how to focus, and I stopped. Like you can't even really see it, but I was like, I'm technically looks like I'm filming it, even if you can't see it, you know, the hundreds of people around me, maybe one elder's gonna come up and give me a smack on the head and say, what are you doing? So, you know, I changed the shot, and we move in different directions so I can make sure I'm doing it. So, yeah, I try and just, again, it kind of rolls back to protocol. I'm just, I'm open to protocol. I'm not really gonna push the boundary. And so, like, oh, no, just let me do it anyways. It's like I'm really just there to, however, I can tell the story as accurately and balanced as possible. I'm gonna do it, whether I get to show everything or not isn't in my control in those protocol situations. And, you know, we just have to respect that, not only as, you know, an Indigenous filmmaker, or a journalist, but just as a human being, like we're gonna disrespect what needs to be done here. And then find another way to tell the story creatively by talking about it, maybe there's some images you can use, you know, if it is smudging, but you can, like, film the sunlight or the rain, drop it on a leaf, or, you know, there's ways around that protocol where you can still give the sensation of, let's say, smudging, but not actually filming it, right? So, that made me think of, have you seen Wilford Buck, the film it's on, shout out to Wilford Buck on Crave? - No, I haven't, sorry. Lisa Jackson was the producer director, and I loved, you know, especially with star stories, it's a heart. There's protocols with telling star stories, recording star stories, and it's always interesting how, like, if you're watching a video and it's distracting, but you're trying to hear and listen to star stories, and I loved how she, like, filmed microscopic meteorites, and how it was, like, slowly moving, well, the stories were being told. I thought it was just beautiful, and you made me think of that with, you know, two different images as you're talking about it, but I think it gives it that those stories, reverence in that where, you know, you're really embracing those stories and not being distracted almost by, by seeing it regardless of protocol, I'm not regardless, but almost embracing the protocol, I guess. - Yeah, yeah, it's finding a way to tell the story in a way where you still have to physically show something, but you're letting the viewer interpret it in the way that you think that you would interpret it, right? - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. Thank you. - I did, and then I can't remember it. - Well, 'cause it was just an on-the-fly one. - Yeah. - No, I guess, I mean, as I'm listening to the conversation, I think of a question, and I'm like, I'm like, okay, I'm curious about that. And then I hear something else, and I'm like, yeah, that's, okay, another question came up, and I forget about the old one. - You sound like you have the same Goldfish memory that I do, so. - Yeah, yeah. - That's why I'm, that's why I'm writing stuff down, or else, yeah. - Oh, sorry. - Go ahead. - I'm curious. With the amount of stories you've done, the amount of people you've talked to, and the issues you've covered, is there that one story or topic that you're just, it's a dream for you to cover it, you know? You know what I'm trying to say? Is there one of those out there, and if so, what would it be? - Yeah, there's a couple that are kind of on my mind, and, you know, with building connections with different communities, I guess, kind of insight. It's from, you know, different chiefs and counselors that I've been able to befriend, in a sense. And so there's things that are kind of happening in the background, and this on this island, and in this province that, if comes to fruition, would be an amazing story. And I can't give overly too much detail, but one dream story of me that I would love to do is seeing a nation repatriating artifacts that were stolen. Now, this story has been out lots, there's been stories covered on it before. It's not anything new, so I'm not coming out here with an original idea, but to find out when it's in the process, it may be have a chance to go to that country where it's, where it's been taken, and have it film it, and then come back, and then it shows up on Vancouver Island, and there's this big ceremony. I mean, that sounds like a documentary to me at this point, but I'm just saying that kind of dream of being able to be there right from the crux when it's like, "Kare, we're gonna go get it," and then you're like, "Film them, take it on the plane," and they're coming, you know what I mean? I got these images, this mind movie in my head of what I would love to do, and that would be a dream I'm for sure, and I'm talking to a community right now that I hope. It works out for them, and that maybe, across my fingers, I would maybe be able to do that. There's also, for the first time since forever, I don't even know the exact amount of years since a bank around a nation is hunted for a steal, and I just saw that story, and we got, I got winded the story four months after it happened, and I'm like, of course, nobody was there to film it. It was probably a very sacred protocol thing, but you know, what if I could, what if I could find a way to film that journey of something that hasn't been done forever is finally being done, and I just want to be there for it. So, again, these are very specific ones, and they may or may not turn out, but that's kind of the things that can be extended, put into a little shorter series to get it on the news for a longer period of time over a few days, like things that can warrant that. That's what I love. That's some of my favorite kind of stories I'd love to do. - You had mentioned reclaiming, like, I guess artifacts, or I don't know, I feel like, I don't know what that's. - I call it ancestors. Yeah, artifacts, it's like an object, the thing it doesn't have spirits, and I said, like, rematreating ancestors. There we go. - Wordplay. - Is there any, I feel like there may be something in mind specifically that you're talking about? I guess what sort of ancestors have been taken specifically from the areas you're talking about, and is there any of those that you're trying to be a part of, I guess, in terms of filming and recording and just sharing the news out there? - Yeah, yeah, I don't have specifics. Again, this, I'm just, I'm getting very finite details, and again, I can't divulge too much, but a lot of a lot of nations here that have had successful repatriations, not a lot have happened yet, but they usually revolve around like chief benches, blankets, sometimes, you know, or look at that map. All of the typical things you would think that maybe was taken away by colonial settlers or trade it or whatever the case was. So those would be the main ones, you know, like any kind of construction site, obviously if there's, there's, you know, remain found, then there's a whole process for that too, so that can be put under the category of repatriation as well. So yeah, I don't really have anything specific that I can tell you of what my dream story would be based on what this nation's looking for. But it would, I would assume it would be one of those things or, or variance of that. I know the person that helped repatriate, repatriate that totem pole from Ireland. Yeah, that was an amazing story too. They were like on, they like that chiefs went there and like community and they like were on the plane with it. Yeah, it gives me goosebumps. Yeah, it's beautiful. They're visually amazing, and for me, as a somebody who loves the film, and you know that it just that the thought of that brings me joy on top of it actually going back home where you belong so. Yeah, that's huge. I want to talk about your graph novel. Yeah, let's do it. It's what a timely question. Oh, is it tell me more, would you let's talk with the novel and then I'll ask you a question about it. Sure, yeah, I guess for people that don't know over the past several years, I'd be working with an amazing team. And myself as a managing editor to put a graphic novel that's based off of our elders recordings. That were recorded in the late 90s and early 2000 from elders depicting true stories to the recollection of before contact during contact and after contact. And yeah, once those recordings were made, it was first turned into a podcast called Remember the story of our elders, which is a Spotify, it's a 12 part series. And we just pick clips out of these hour long recordings and really find the climax of all these stories, whether there's clam digging or hunting or food preservation or becoming a man or trying to find the right woman, sorry, trying to try to decide whether you want to boy or girl and decide which river you're going to go in for that decision. All of these amazing stories, so those were all put into first the podcast and then we talked about those stories and then it was turned into a graphic novel, which we believe that process and the type of graphic novel. It is has never been done before, so that's in that's the scoop, let's call it that. I'm so excited and need to listen to the pod. Remember, because you were mentioning that when we were chatting at pod summit and I remember we were talking about, I don't talk about the graphics first, I don't talk about the fonts. But you were saying how difficult it was working or maybe not difficult, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but about the, you know, working with an artist has maybe not from the nation of which the stories are told. And how, you know, if someone has a certain style or certain cultural style and how that is being obviously brought into the novel, but maybe not as authentic or I don't want to say appropriate, but. Yeah, no, no, that's true. I get what you're saying sorry interrupt you there, but yeah, I mean like also graphic novel in a modernized way will I don't think will always accurately represent the true traditional way that you know something was carved or something was painted. Because graphic novels has the bit of that sensationalism in my opinion, but yeah, of course there's different swells, we have a cool, cool card is going to create artists, you know, so there's, there's a mix so the backgrounds might be different than artists, but they're intention and values for, for these sacred stories, I think are in line with what we wanted. And so we worked with that and and we were able to to bring, you know, these three amazing artists together to help us put this together and it's it's we're finally now. Actually, the next day after we record this, I'll be doing our first public book launch and launch in the books will finally be able to start selling some of it to the public, which is exciting. So we should put a link in the show notes of people can buy all the graphic novels exactly right now the nation has an email for a wait list so it's not super. Up and running yet for delivery, but it is something they are thinking about in the future, the time we first launch it was during Canada post strike. We didn't set it up in a way where we're like hey, we're going to mail it out. I was like, I will just forget about it. We'll deal with that later. So that's something that the nation will have to. To work with so although on the magic netter and people say it's chat, you know, chess is book or whatnot, which makes you be uncomfortable. It's it's for the nation. All the profits go directly to language and cultural programs once it was completed and now that's all for them to take so which is great. I'm curious about was there a story. I'm curious about the before pre colonization parts of these stories and like was there something in there that just like blew your mind they were just were shocking or surprising. Yeah, I think so. I think one of the stories I heard about pre colonial contact was the amount of distance our people would trek over the Rockies. Our traditional territories on the west coast of the Rockies that northeast to Canberra on the mainland of British Columbia. But they would truck east and the res nations on the other side of the Rockies and they would truck west and they would meet in the middle. I thought that was crazy because like the mountains are already just like astronomically tall. And the distance they would travel. I thought was absolutely incredible. I even found out some of my my great grandparents like my great grandfather, great grand uncles. I heard elders pointing at different mountains they used to hike over to like get to the other side. And then you know, we were people running water. So we had a lot of fish and then they would meet with these tribes in the interior that would have like, you know, moose and all these other things that don't live in the Rockies and then that's where the exchange would happen. So yeah, I think that was probably one of the while incredible stories didn't make it into the book unfortunately, but that story I thought was pretty incredible. Yeah, I've heard I've heard some stories of you know those the meeting in the middle and you know that those those those really those original treaties of trade and support and you know we have we have a lot of salmon this year or a lot of buffalo this year. Yeah, there was, I mean, there was an internet and international wars as well too. Let's not paint it all is a pretty picture, but you know the one that I heard sounded good. You're mentioning about like clam digging and hunting and there's a lot of lot of science in that can you speak? Yeah, I mean, there is a lot of science in that and the science that you know our elders used were purely based on, you know, the moon and the sun and and making sure you're picking clams at the right time and and going in the right place and understanding the ground and maybe some gives way and some doesn't. So, you know, even my father did it as a child and and was learning from his father and and and mother before him on what needs to be done to do it safely to not get sick what to do if you get sick back kind of thing. So, yeah, the clam digging was a big one of the stories that we got one of the artists to do and and they went in the news at night so it's this beautiful kind of dark landscape comic strip for a few pages there. But yeah, same with if there was muscles, then it would be the same situation as well too. So, yeah, clam digging is really good preservation food, you know, there's certain caves we had up in the mountain that were just purely dedicated for like storing the goat meat and and drying it out so it could last throughout the winter. Yeah, it's it's incredible the knowledge these elders having, you know, it's just a book with three stories that you're grabbing the climatic points of the stories, but I'm sure there could be more versions and more stories of this. Because it's just there's just so much that was recorded and so much great knowledge within it so. I'm a full push. Yes, I just realized something you're on the coast and you have salt. You're talking about preservation like here, like on the plains and the mountains, you know, mostly with like smoke and like dehydration and like the chemical reactions of smoke preservation dehydration. Yeah, we have salt. Sorry, I just realized that. Yeah, go home, go ahead, Alex. Yeah, so in talking about scavenging for food, hunting food, how would you say, try to find proper way to say this. When when let's say looking for clams and hunting for seals, what are the differences in the senses that you are using in order to do so, if that makes sense. I'm not sure if I follow, oh, like all the type of ways that this is being hunted, okay, the different senses that you would use in order to achieve that. For sure, for sure, I'm not, I don't have confirmation for a nation ever hunted sealsers. of the ones that did, I don't think we were one of them. So I'll just learn from that. But yeah, I mean, the sense is obviously was, you know, like I mentioned, the clam digging, which is just, you know, tied related and moon related. But I mean, I've also heard all their stories, you know, when they're going hunting, and it's not so much about what they're seeing about what they're smelling. So being able to smell an L-cat X amount of years away, that was a sensory overload. I mean, you can smell them from a distance. And so that would be one of the sensors you're using is smelling like an elk from a long distance or smelling deer. That was a big thing, especially because it was such thick brush, such thick mountains. You can't-- there wasn't really, in our tradition, I had a lot of clear, like, clearings in Flatland. It just says, there's not much of it. So you really got to rely on that smell and also you're hearing like it's the crackling, you know, through the trees or the crunch on the leaves on the ground or the rock shuffling along the riverbend. So yeah, it's-- there may be other nations. There are other nations in BC, rather, that will-- or across the nation that are definitely more-- like, oh, there it is. We're going that way. But, you know, the senses are really, really important. And the nose and the ears. And then also remembering that location, because that's, you know, that mountain's good for that. This mountain's good for that. That river's good for that. So just picking a general area and then turning those senses on, I think, was really important for our people, particularly, or so. The smell is such an underrated sense. Yeah, especially, I think everywhere. But I think I've heard a lot of like navigation, like, seeing navigation stories of, you know, using smell and understanding, like, different-- you have a smell of different birds that are connected to certain islands and how that changes and know where you are. You may be-- I'm sure there's more than just me. But you probably, if you get a chance when you're in BC, and it's like during the rainy season, you can almost smell before the rains come in. You could just go, I can go outside and smell like, oh, it's going to rain later. And it does. And it's just like so. It's an underrated sense. Or maybe I was superpowers, I don't know. Probably, there's probably a connection, a little bit of all of those answers. Alex, do you have a last five questions? No, I just had a comment, actually. I believe that, you know, I can't speak for everyone. But I think there's, like, another sense that people kind of skin over sometimes, or they don't-- they don't realize they're-- but I go-- I let to go hunting last year. I typically go hunting for my birthday. And so I go back to my little bit to do so. And I find that it's one thing to see, to smell, to hear, to taste, to feel. But also, moments, so for example, I went to this one part, just by a farmer's field, and it sat just in the clinging of a meadow. And I found that, as I sat there, and kind of like my mind rests, I almost felt like I was connected to everything. And my senses were like, I was one with everything else, you know what I mean? And a deep understanding, but then typical things that, if I'm just walking apart, I wouldn't hear that, or I wouldn't have seen that, or I wouldn't have felt that, or smelled it, or anything. And so, yeah, no, I just wanted to comment and say, like, I think there's-- like, you become, like, in tune with the land's frequency, if that makes sense. Oh, for sure. Yeah, I feel the same way, too, when I go hunting. You know, you shut everything off. There's no signal. You're just out in the wilderness in your traditional territory, in my case. And yeah, you just start to feel where you are, instead of just seeing where you are and sitting where you are, it becomes something quite unique and special. It's a connection to Mother Earth that can only be described so much, and then you just got to go do it. So-- Yeah, yeah. That-- yeah, it's an extra-- so I felt like it's much an extra sense. It's like everything is more [INAUDIBLE] elevated for sure. Yeah. I mean, we have more than five senses anyway. But last question, before we do a little sneaky-- not sneaky, or lightning round. We keep changing the name of that. What's the most memorable story you've covered? Most memorable story I covered. In regards to, like, the TV show, or just a journalism-- It's up to you, something that really-- memorable, something that really influenced you, or maybe you think a different way, or just really made an impact, maybe on yourself, or a community or-- Yeah, for sure. I think, like, on the R&A to land TV show podcast perspective, I think one of my favorite things I covered was when I went up to my traditional territory, because we were doing a ceremonial burning. We had found out that there was a dynamite explosion for forestry purposes, or I don't know if it's forestry or mining purposes, rather. But we traditionally keep our ancestors. We had them in coffins up in the trees. And there was an explosion, and they all just were gone. And obliterated and sent to the ground and lost. And so we went into a traditional ceremonial burning with the nation. We had so many people out there. We didn't have so many form of nation that knew how to do it at 100%. So we had the former Lieutenant Governor Stephen Point come with us and help us with that. So I think that was one of my favorite-- one of my favorite things that I covered in the show. As a journalist, the Diddy Dodd First Nations, one of my favorite things I've covered, as I mentioned before, when it comes to journalism. And there's all these little tiny indigenous stories that I've-- not tiny, but in regards to like quantity, but that I've done across the island. That's not really what came right now, because I could do so. I do a lot. If I'm a journalist, 365 days a year, minus the weekends, and you do a story every day, you can imagine it's a lot. So my memory at this point isn't great, but I can safely say those two, for sure. Oh. Well, I want to do so many questions. That's another episode. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Old's happy to come back, but thank you. No, this has been awesome. On that point, shall we lighten around? Let's do it. OK. If you could create an indigenous superhero, what would their superpower be? Ooh. It would be a superpower where you can make a fire for a sweat log, just by pointing at it and then it turns on. So then you don't have to spend all the extra labor. It's just boom. And then in you go. It's why I like hot tub to just get it and go. You didn't there. I think that's-- Yes, you can go. Alex, how about you? Oh, that's a tough one. Yeah, I would love to have the gift of-- or creating a superhero as a gift of just healing. And it was an interesting topic yesterday of someone saying, well, if they heal, then you could do a cool thing where it's they take a piece of themselves and give it to the person or the life form to heal it. But that slowly, I guess, takes away some of your life. So it's a cool dilemma there. It's a cool dilemma, yeah, in person. I did not think of that question. That was not me. It's a good one. It was a good one. Briberad or Bannock? Bannock. Oh, Alex? I'm a Friberad guy. I got to say Bannock, too. Yeah. I'm going to say-- I'm going to say like a little link. Get my BC question in here. How do you guys define the difference? Because I've heard it say both ways and the same thing shows up on my plate. Oh, interesting. For me, Friberad is cooked in oil. Bannock is either in the oven or on a fire. And I grew up with Bannock on a stick on a fire. And then he put the sacred hot dog in. Oh, OK. OK, yeah. So that's what I thought, for sure. I definitely liked the baked one better. But it doesn't mean I don't hate Friberad. And that's for sure. Absolutely. Kat, favorite Ninja Turtle or a Power Ranger? I didn't watch either show. I can't answer the question. I'm sorry. OK. I literally have not watched either one of those shows. Alex? I'll pick purple. I don't know. Purple way. Donatello was my favorite Ninja Turtle. What about you, Alex? I got to say Raphael, because I love that they showed a character who uses their emotions and specifically anger as a string. Oh, that was a heck of an answer. That was deep, that was deep dish pizza deep. Good job. three. Was that did you think of that question before you had that ready? No no actually I was yeah it just it just came to me and then I was like well you know I've never actually seen that yeah that's cool it's a it's a cool way to portray someone's gift mm-hmm okay next question Star Trek or Star Wars I like Star Trek no sorry yeah no yeah my my dad like Star Wars I like Star Trek I love this favorite Indigenous movie or TV show that's a tough one I'll just tell you the most recent one that I thought that I like that I was able to host at the Victoria Film Festival with Sweet Summer Power what was my friend's Leslie Blatt and Harold Joe from Orca Co. media fantastic movie just came out as it's going to eventually make it's way across the country beautiful story of two different young people doing this power circuit and in the summer two different nations two different goals in life and then everything that ensues the love the argue in the trauma of the you know you know elder of like a family drinking and but also amazing Indigenous comedy like it has everything that encompasses you know Indigenous life in Canada my opinion I had a young teenage life or teenage age rather sweet summer power oh I'm excited thank you yeah that was deep I'm I'm plugging again but I didn't mean it's good it's good I appreciate that Alex maybe not for the old timers they're onto it but north of 60 was so good it was so good I had to like man they don't even sell all the CDs I had to buy it from some like bootleg in Ontario it was the craziest thing ever I got all the movies know what show still good it took a great show I love that I was talking when I was talking about eggplant before we were talking about reservation dogs and eggplant episode with the star people which I always show my class is great example of how with like film in media how those secret stories and how that how that is portrayed in a good way and the result of again someone embracing and being a word on in their understanding of the spirit world and the repercussions of that is not being accepted within general society that sounds amazing yeah you're gonna watch it now favorite food last question favorite food from your ancestral lands I like the open fire pit salmon big fire put it on some cedar stakes little to no seasoning just let it sit there for hours on the peg on it and then just take it off that take it off to stick maybe throw it on some fry bed or just eat it like that just like candy like it's so good that's that's that's when I love the best ice it's amazing Alex um yeah so back home there's so many legs and so many fish in them so you go fish you go bring a little cooker like a propane tank and a skillet or pan or something with you you go you fish you catch your pick roll has to be pick roll you put some butter in a pan fully it let it let it bounce for a couple minutes cook it eat it it's the best thing ever I promise you you can never buy a store like it it changes the game changes the game pick roll hey I don't know if I've ever eaten a pick roll in my life so that sounds amazing you've got to you have too much there you go it's on the list I'm I'm boring I don't know I love moose what's this good love this can't go wrong can't go wrong okay this has been fantastic well thank you so much Chad this for this time and your your stories and all the work that you do in community and all the work in passing on the knowledge but then you know lifting up these voices in these stories I think that's so working so appreciate that thank you too thank you as always remember to check our website relational science circle all one bird dot com for all lots of resources that are connected to each podcast episode uh so if you want to learn about some more stuff and dig a little bit deeper uh go check that out there's also an indigenous science merch store there so you can get some cool sewag uh all profits go towards knowledge keeper honorary and keep in the pod going remember uh free way to support is to like follow share and rate this always helps out uh and also special thanks to indigenous green office in bespoke productions hub and of course check out our need of land very important we'll put all the links in the show notes and everywhere it's awesomeness and you can hang it with Chadis thank you so much hi hi