Ted Lasso star Brendan Hunt talks about the World Cup at SXSW – Football Weekly

This is the Guardian. Thanks for coming everybody. It's a football week. Life's real honour to be asked to headline South by Southwest to close it. We didn't, we thought it was weird. They did it at 11.30 on a Monday morning, but this is where the, the close of South by Southwest is. So thanks for coming to that. My name's Max Rushden. I'm the host of this. We are the longest running football podcast in the world. We are, we think the biggest football podcast in the US, but we haven't checked for a few years. We're not going to do that. Can I just ask, does anybody regularly listen or has ever listened? It's an audio format, so no hands up just to kind of, like, some sort of, emit some sort of noise if you listen to football weekly. OK. And now for the same question, emit some sort of noise if you've watched Ted Lasso. I see how to skew this, this show. OK. What I'm going to do is I'm going to read an intro, because we're going to put this podcast out on Friday. And I see two people have left already. This is a blow, but that's OK. Thanks so much for coming. You thought it was an AI show, didn't you? I know. We're the only one not doing AI. Thank you for coming. We're not talking about innovation. We don't know what that is. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to do it. Read an intro. I will have the music to make you feel like it's the pod. And at the end of it, when I say all that plus your questions, and this is the Guardian Football Weekly, if you could then cheer wildly as if there are 20,000 people in this room, as if it is the greatest single moment of your life. If it is the greatest single moment of your life, you have my sympathies. I'm sorry for what you've been through, but I'll read that intro. It will sort of tell you what's going to come up on the show anyway. And then you all-- you're an intelligent crowd. I don't need to talk you through this again. But I'll do the intro. I'll say all that plus your questions. And this is not the bit. This is just explaining it to you. This is the Guardian Football Weekly. And when I do that, I'll probably make some big gesture. Go what? Like, standing ovation is fine. You should see people on the Dublin show, right? They're wasted. I doubt most of you are. But channel that, if you can. OK. Is everybody understand that? Does that make sense? OK, good. OK, thanks. OK. OK, I'll just get ready. Do you mind if I can stand for the intro? I'll sit down for the-- I just got to do my-- yeah. Password on this upholster seven. Exclamation. OK, it's into my bank as well. That's great. OK, producer Joel. Producer Joel's here, by the way. If you're a fan of the pod, that's nice, yeah. [APPLAUSE] Play the music, Joel. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly Live from South by Southwest in Austin, Texas. Today we'll talk about the successive Ted Lasso, not in small part to this podcast, Unwavering Support for the Show, Since It Began. We'll talk about the World Cup, the politics, Trump, ICE, Iran, where the fans should come, how fans feel about it here, and where the football weekly is tacitly supporting the administration, just by being here. Then the football, how will the USMNT get on, how much hope will England give us before another heroic defeat, how will Scotland mess it up against Haiti? Then some Premier League, mainly that picture of Mavera Panos getting the ball in his face. But also the title race, Arsenal Sally, not bottling it, tot them not being awful. If time will do some rexam, they need the coverage. We'll find out if Barry's bought some cowboy boots, answer your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. Thank you, Texas. OK, let's bring on the panel today. First of all, the nice man who I met two days ago, who is the face of our US soccer coverage, it is Alex Abnos, everybody. [APPLAUSE] Secondly, a man who was on the first ever panel is still doing it either out of sheer brilliance or a complete lack of ambition to do anything else. It's Barry Glendeng. [APPLAUSE] And finally, a man who has no connections to football weekly or the Guardian, but we were worried no one would show up to watch us. It is the co-creator and coach beard from Ted Lasso, the writer and actor and comedian, Brendan Hunt. [APPLAUSE] I think it's going well so far, Barry. Yeah, what a welcome. Yeah, I know. I was terrified nobody would come. So thank you all. And as Max said, normally when we do these live events, they're at night. The crowd is generally drunk and boisterous. So this has been brilliant so far. Yeah, and they weren't even asked to applaud. They just-- it was just organic. Now, Brendan, thanks so much for coming. Football Weekly has always been very supportive of Ted Lasso since the embryonic stages of that TV show. We have a clip to show you just how much we have always loved this show. There is a new TV series coming up called Ted Lasso about an American coming to be a soccer coach. And in one scene, he is seen reading, inverting the pyramid. Well, I think it's a blog behind him on the plane is seen reading it. OK, I'll have seen from Stillfogas on Twitter. How do you feel about this? Well, the program itself, if the best of the programs on the trailers, and it's one of the worst things ever, ever made. So it's slightly embarrassed to be associated with it, to be honest. All Wilson is worried about is whether the guy sitting behind Ted Lasso actually paid for his coffee, who's inverting the pyramid, are gutted in a second-hand shop or out of a bargain bin, like most wrong-thinking people. It looks terrible. I think it came from a-- look, it was an NBC or some CBS comedy sketch that they've managed to drag out to a whole series. I don't like it at all. Well, you know, you'd have thought, at least at some point, someone in the production team said, we need a runner to at least order inverting the pyramid online. So good for you, Jay. I like the idea that this terrible comedy character, even he considered inverting the pyramid beneath him and designated the reading of it to his assistant. Producer Sammy also points out, let's hope that that TV show is not thinking of sponsoring the pod after what was a glowing review of the program none of us have watched. I for one think it looks absolutely excellent. [MUSIC PLAYING] So in many ways, Brendan, you owe it to us. Yeah, thanks so much for that. All of you really, really an incredible piece of audio that I heard contemporaneously at the time, because it was the first time anyone in football sphere had spoken about Ted Lasso. I was like, oh, wow, the Guardian guys? Really? I love those guys. Wait, what? Oh, no. A few things about it. One is not only had we not send a runner to get inverting the pyramid, that was my personal copy of inverting the pyramid. And Jonathan's defense, the defense of both Jonathan's, the trailer, not beloved. Not beloved. People did not like the trailer, overall, so somewhat fairer there. But oh my gosh, the scorn, the scornberry. I have since watched Ted Lasso, and I really love it. [LAUGHTER] And I'm only halfway through series two, and I'm really looking forward to the rest of it. So I would like to apologize. I would also like to point out that of all the criticism level at the show we hadn't seen, mine was the most mild. It was. It was, yes, compared to the two Jonathan's, you come out very, very well in this. Max, thank you for your kind words about the show. My pleasure. You hadn't seen. But also, finally, just one of the-- in closing mentioned that, yeah, we went on to use inverting the pyramid throughout the series. There's even one of the episodes that has inverting the pyramid in the title. And the tale of like, you know, berries of great example, the whole trend-crim dynamic, you know, didn't like it refers, but then gets one over. I hold on my hand a different copy of inverting the pyramid. This is the expanded edition. And this was sent to me in the mail. And it is signed. Brendan, hope you enjoy this version as much as Coach Beard seemed to enjoy the last signed Jonathan Wilson. But here's the thing. Jonathan, by all reports, has still not seen the show. And this is merely a thank you for the thousands of books we've helped him sell over the past five years. Jonathan, you are welcome. What's good is Brendan sent us the time codes and the date of that episode. You have been hanging on to this. Hope this has been a catharsis for you. Alex, did you love that show from its inception? I mean, you probably have to say that now or-- Yeah, I mean, listen, I was honestly pretty skeptical because Ted Lasso was, of course, an ad campaign at first. And I was just like, I don't know if they can pull this off into a full show. And enough people that I trusted, sighed and loved it. And I sighed, and I love it. So there you go. I mean, I don't know. I do appreciate that in Drew Michael Jordan fashion, you took that personally. And while I needed it here, the other people in that episode were Jonathan Liu and Jonathan Wilson, the two sort of most eviscerating critics of a show they'd never seen. I checked with Johnny Liu if he had seen Ted Lasso since. And he said, I think I've seen 15 minutes of it. And a couple of clips. That's good. And I did check again with Jonathan Wilson just to be sure. Yesterday, have you seen it? No. Thank you, Wilson. [LAUGHTER] But Wilson then did say is if Brendan wants to offer a blurb, the US publishers would be delighted. He feels quite one way, doesn't it, from Wilson to-- to you, Brendan. The thing about Ted Lesser that is really interesting, I'm like, Barry, I've watched two series and think it is such a beautiful and lovely show. I'm not just saying that, I would say that anyway, but I'm not just saying it. But it's interesting that you make a show which has soccer in its heart for a US audience, which is a risk, right? And you make a show with Americans talking about soccer, which is a risk to a UK audience, right? Because we don't like Americans talking about our game, for goodness sake. Did you think about those risks or just think, "Sod it, let's try this." Yeah, I was kind of excited, "Let's try this." The origins of it as correctly stated in your vicious tech on our show, it was a commercial first for when NBC Sports got the Premier League coverage. So it was formed fairly spontaneously. We had no idea we'd still be doing it seven years later. But it is rooted in the fact that we are proper fans, not just of soccer and English soccer, but also English culture in general. So yeah, we didn't stop to think that we might be damaging our prospects of anyone liking it because we didn't necessarily think anyone was ever going to watch it anyway. We were famously a show on a streaming service that did not exist. So this is just a stab in the dark here anyway. What does it matter? What it's about. But when Jason hosted SNL a while ago, for the first time, if the show had come out, his great line in his monologue was, "We don't know why this is a hit because it's about two things that Americans hate, soccer and kindness." But there's an interesting thing Alex about the language of football and it being different in different countries and how do you feel that you've looked down upon? But I look down on you because you're an American talking about this game. Yes, I've personally invented. I feel you, Max Russian, have been looking down on me since the moment I arrived here in Austin and we met for the first time. No, he's been looking down on me for 14 years now. That's bad. With good reason, Barry though. I do think that that is a real dynamic. It definitely exists. I think it's lessening by the day. I honestly do think that things like Ted Lasso breaking through into wider culture is helping ease it a little bit. But whether you're talking about just people with an American accent talking about soccer, whether you call it soccer or football, those sorts of things, we were talking the other day. I was like, "Can we just call it truce and say that I can call it soccer and you can call it football?" We all know what sport we're talking about. Nobody's out of the loop here. It's all good. I think it's funny that we still have to have those conversations, but they're definitely less hostile than they were even as recently as 10 years ago. But even in Ireland, a lot of people refer to the sport as soccer because there's an Irish version, a gaelic football. If you talk about football, it's presumed you're talking about gaelic football, so a lot of people refer to it as soccer. It's not big deal. Famously, a British word. Yeah. So, I don't know. I thought all words were British. It's true. Like a round of applause, like a green party member gets on question time. That's good. I like that. Now, we, the podcast, have been accused of having an anti-American bias. Here is a clip. Below the line is a funny place to go. It's like social media. You get a lot of people saying, "I really hate everything you've done. Be a whole life, go away. I want to kill you." That's sort of X. But before that, it was just below the line. And here is a clip regarding the captain. Christian British at the captain of. I should know this. Often the captain, yes. Often the captain of the USMNT. Here is a clip. The podcast managed it again. You told the story of a Chelsea match. While completely eliminating the American players' contribution to the proceedings, he scored a goal. Every other goal was mentioned. It's set, except that one. This is the third time that this has happened. I brought this up another time after the match during Pudicic's first season. When he came off the bench, he beat three liable players to set up one goal and then scored a goal. And almost single-handedly made the match a contest. He was not mentioned in your account of the match. How is that possible? I have lived in England. I did some of my college in Nottingham. I lived in London, in Oxford, in Cambridge. I also played football in England at a fairly high level. I know this very one thing very clearly. British football culture is quite insular and specifically anti-American. To a degree that is really quite obvious from the outside but strangely invisible to Brits themselves. And Americans are almost wholly unaware of it, which is a real problem. Considering that some of our top players are now turning up at your clubs, we get it. You don't particularly welcome a future where Americans are good at football. I would warn all American players against signing with Premier League clubs. I don't believe that we have an anti-American agenda. If the US are brilliant at football, that's great. I mean, this is what I think. I don't obviously think that. I have a feeling that criticism is rooted specifically in some lame gag or other. We once cracked about Christian Poolysick being left off to training by his mum. Sorry, his mum in an SUV every day. And that particularly incensed that particular listener. I must confess I have no strong feelings. One where the other towards Christian Poolysick, I think he's a good player. He's struggled to force his way into the Chelsea team and get a good run of games. There is no more ardent supporter of the likes of London Donovan, Tony Meola and Alexi Laelas than I. I don't know if you're helping me. Does the writer have a, I mean, it's quite an extreme view to say don't go to the Premier League. And just to be clear, that was a very abridged version of the entire post. But does he have a point? Listen, when I listen to that letter, I do. There's a part of me that definitely identifies with the viewpoint because when I was growing up as one of the only soccer fans really in my general vicinity, you know, I was starved for media attention on American players and on soccer generally. So, like, I would have definitely been of the opinion that if Christian Poolysick or any American player comes on and scores a goal in the Premier League on a successful team, you know, I would want that talked about. So I really do understand where it's coming from. At the same time, I am at this moment in time deeply embarrassed by that. Why did you write it? It's the question. Well, I just think I think that American soccer has a long running inferiority complex as it applies to the rest of the world. And that applies with our attitudes towards our own players and our place in the broader footballing world. And I think as we just discussed, it is at times justified. I think people definitely do look down on the American way of talking about the game because it's so well-established or American players because other countries are so well-established. But it is getting so much better. And at this current moment, we have what is pretty inarguably the best generation of men's players that we've ever had. So, you know, I think people need to trust the process to use another American phrase and let it happen. The whole letter betrays a certain inherent implication though that we haven't really made it until you're talking about it. Yeah. You know, it's not enough to accomplish the goal. It has to have been recognized by established British journalism or it did not happen. But do you set, do you get that sense, Bernie? I live in Australia now and you definitely sense that, you know, if you grow up in the UK and you're a football fan, you get everything. You get the show before the show, the show before the show, before the show, you get the game, you get the show afterwards. In Australia, you don't get all that content, right? And so you have a paranoia as well because there are bigger sports that have more money. So it is the same principle, you know, you have NFL baseball hockey, whatever here, so that you'll sort of fight it. There's a sort of defensiveness and a paranoia about football fans. Do you think that exists? Yeah, I mean, it gets talked about a lot in US circles. Like in the last 20 years, there's a role to being a US soccer fan that is not true in any other country, which we're not only a fan of the sport, but you have to be a bit of a missionary for it, you know. So there's this constant desire to like prove that it's good and that it's worth your time. And it makes you insane. It makes you insane to try to do both of these things. And you put the, you know, it's your already complex on top of that. Then, yeah, you just, you just want it to be seen. Just to be seen, that's all Max. We see you. We see you. As a journalist, you know, it's really striking to me. You know, I've been covering American soccer now for on and off for about 20 years. And in that time, how much of my job is simple advocacy for soccer as a thing that is worth covering in a serious way? You know, I feel very lucky to have the job that I have and and be able to do it. But I do wish that less of it had to be that. I do wish that people just automatically understood this is the world's most popular sport. The US is a great place to watch it. It has a scene that I think, even if it's not huge, even if it's not the dominant sport, it is the most interesting beat in sports. I really firmly believe that because there are so many factors on the business side, on the sporting side, all over the place that just make it completely unlike any other sporting scene. Yeah, I mean, I have a huge admiration for kids from, say, the USA or Australia or Chris Wood in New Zealand who are able to make it as a professional, premier league footballers of Syria. Football or whatever because, like, in New Zealand, everyone just plays rugby and Chris Wood went, "No, I don't like that shape ball. I'm gonna play with this round one." And for him to grow up in a country like New Zealand and be good enough to play as a decent, premier league striker, I think it's remarkable. It's quite a staggering achievement. - I noticed you didn't say that about an American like Christian P.G. - Sorry. - And actually, there is a clip, I don't think we have an anti-US agenda on the pod, but this is a 20s, this is not a stitch up Barry because you said it, but here is Barry with his entire knowledge of the MLS. - Are you suggesting Barry that you feel like you've conquered podcasts and you have no more left to learn? - Oh no, I don't think I've conquered anything, that's the thing. So I am constantly trying to improve and I'm going to have to work for another 20 years. I'm not just on the cost of retirement, but maybe at some point I might get a lucrative move to some MLS podcast where I just have to talk about the woodland timber lakes. (laughing) That's not even a tea, isn't it? (laughing) - There we are. How are they going this season, Alex? - Listen, woodland timber lakes have had a lot of trouble finding the right to have the tam players to match with their DP's. They're making a late play for, oh boy. Who, help me out, who are the, what? - Alexander Lepiro. - Yeah, there we go. - They're getting him. - Ted Lasso, Jason Sonatic has said about Ted Lasso, that in light of Trump's rise to power the first time, and he made the character kind of kinder and more optimistic. Is that, that's quite an interesting thing to do, I guess, is to make this, was he not as kind and optimistic, or was there a direct, was that, you guys thinking we need to make this super positive, 'cause of what's happening here? - Well, in a way, yes. Like the first commercials that we did for NBC, which are still on YouTube, listen under an American coach, Ghost of London, are still, I think, pretty funny, but it is definitely funny in the way of a comedy sketch. Like it is a, Routin Tutin, you know, Loud Ugly American, proudly not knowing what he is delving into, and it's a bit of a hoot. And then the second commercial a year later, when they had us come back, we sort of accidentally found this more like, sensitive, curious side of him, and that was what made it interesting enough to be like, "Okay, let's try to do something with this later." And then by the time we're writing the show in 2018, and there was a certain unpleasant administration happening, we talked a lot in the magazine about a, there was a toxicity of the discourse, and that was not the kind, that kind of America that was going out to the world was like, not the kind that we felt as the most authentic version, you know, and like, and that can lead one to inauthentic versions as well, and sort of like a Jimmy Stewart kind of like mythology, but like, like there's some things sort of just midwestern and curious and, you know, perhaps basic, but also just nice about the guy that is like the teachers and mentors that we were familiar with. So it wasn't exactly an attempt to try to be consciously, you know, kind and smiley, but definitely tried to be different than what was going out there at the time. And now it's back, so that's fun. - Yeah. You know, coming to the States, and you know, being in the immigration queue and like checking, deleting emails and deleting my Twitter and thinking, "Oh, you know, and then, and then just getting waved through, because there was like 3,000 people trying to get in and one poor bloat going, yeah, whatever, you're totally fine." And we've had listeners, you know, getting in touch saying we shouldn't be here, doing this, listening to saying we shouldn't go to the World Cup. And, you know, Alex, you've written about this, you wrote a really interesting piece after what happened in Minneapolis with ICE before Iran, and you know, before who knows what happens between now and the World Cup. How are you sort of feeling, like, you know, and you're talking about advocating for football, advocating for one of the US, and now you're in this sort of dilemma, I guess. - It is a dilemma, yeah. It is a dilemma that I deal with on a pretty much daily basis anymore. I, you know, I wrote about this in the piece, but it's basically, you know, you spend your whole time in American soccer, whatever your function is, hoping to grow the game. And in my particular position, I really want more people to be into soccer, so that they read more journalism about soccer, which gives me more money. - Money, money, you know, but also just ability to do cool stories just like all the great journals and that I've read about baseball and basketball and football over the years. I really think it deserves that level of coverage. But for that reason, you know, the World Cup is just one of these like exponential events where you, everybody's counting on the interest rocketing up after the World Cup or during the World Cup, and everything is gonna get a bump. And for that reason, everybody's excited, and I'm excited, and the World Cup is the best thing in the world, it really is. However, it is taking place at this moment in time with this current administration, and the more stuff I saw happening in Minneapolis was really the moment where I just was like, I don't think FIFA's gonna take away the World Cup from the US, I don't think that's a realistic expectation. There's like about 100, 200 things that have to happen before we even get to where we can talk about that as a realistic possibility. But if we get there, if it happens, I feel like it's kind of justified, you know? Like we have federal agents in the streets killing on armed civilians for looking at them the wrong way. Now we're going to war against a country that has qualified for the World Cup that has scheduled to play all three of its group games in the United States. I think under any other circumstance for any other country, maybe for any other sporting tournament, we'd be talking about moving the tournament. And I think we have to be honest about that, we really do. (audience applauding) It doesn't mean, like, let me be clear, I'm not like cheering for this to happen, I don't want the World Cup to go away from the US, I would really like for it to be here, I want to be a country that people want to come to. I like that we have been a country that people want to come to for a lot of years, but, you know, we're not right now, and I think that's justified. - How does it make you, as a just a purity as a football fan, Brendan? How does it make you feel? - I mean, since the US was a word of the World Cup, I've so looked forward to it as being like, because at that time, you know, mathematically, there was no way that we'd still be in a Trump administration. So, like, okay, by that point, it'll be, oh, God, it's gonna be the 250th anniversary of the country being born, that's gonna be great. And it'll be our first big international event where we welcome the whole world to our shores, and we can give everyone a hug, and I'm sorry about that guy from before, and like, it's all better now, and that has all gone completely to shit. But I do still cling to, like, people will come here and they will meet us, and we will meet them, and what's great about hosting an international tournament is opening your arms to the world, and the world meeting you in return, and I still think that, you know, people Trump governments, if you'll pardon the verb choice there, but still. So, I still think that once it comes down to it, it will happen, and it will be a net positive in more ways than we can even think of right now, and not just for soccer, but for understanding. - Barry, it's the idea of a boycott, right? It's different for different sets of fans. So half-oiled, it's in the UK, and half is around the world, but a lot of England fans listen to the pardon, go through the sort of four-yearly or two-yearly pain with me of getting close and then getting knocked out. But if you're an England fan, you're gonna qualify for probably every tournament. So you could make a political stand and say, "Okay, I'm not gonna go to this." But if you're a Scotland fan, you've called it or a Cape Verde fan, or you qualify for the World Cup, but this doesn't happen ever or often, and now someone's saying, "Actually, mate, don't do that." - Yeah, well, I mean, we had the situation at the Qatar World Cup where Harry Kane as England captain was going to wear the rainbow arm band in solidarity to the LGBTQ community, and then it was made clear to him that if he did that, he would receive a yellow card before the game had even started. So he backed down or the FAA backed down, and I get why they did it, but I thought it was weak on their part. Let him take the yellow card. But I think it would be massively unfair to expect, for many of these athletes, it's going to be the highlight of their lives. There's a player who lives in Dublin, who plays for Shamrock Rovers. He qualified for Cape Verde through his father, and for him to go and play in a World Cup, it's just incredible. And I would hate if he someone asked or put pressure on him to boycott it. And you ask questions, should we be here? Should we be covering? I think journalists have it usually to cover these things. I'm looking forward to being at the World Cup. I wouldn't have a problem if the Guardian decided we shouldn't go. We all know what Donald Trump is like. He's not going to change, but my big problem is the manner in which Gianni, in Fantino, the FIFA president, has buried his way up. Trump's rectum appears to live there now, pops out every now and again. FIFA are to hand them a prize of some description. be first supposed to be politically neutral and they're not and they're an awful organization but they're the organization we're stuck with for the time being and ultimately I think you know there were reservations over the World Cup in Russia there were reservations over being in Qatar there will be reservations over the one in Saudi Arabia rightfully so there are reservations over this one but ultimately for all the political meddling and for FIFA's causing up to Trump they can't change what happens on the pitch and I'm pretty confident that will be good. I think it raises a lot of interesting questions about the involvement of politics and sports and I was talking with somebody else about this a couple days ago they were asking like you know don't we want sports and politics to be separate or is this a proof that they're you know an extra-bly linked and obviously it's the latter but I do think that there's a pretty big difference when we talk about the opportunity that these players have to play on the World Cup and I think about this a lot with Iran specifically you know I think that there's a big difference between allowing players to speak out on political points and do things like where a rainbow armband and allowing a situation where the teams are allowed to be used as political pawns which is really what you want to avoid and what is going to happen with Iran and what's going to happen with a lot of these teams as their federations and confederations have you know maybe increasing conversations about boycotting the World Cup or not going or making some sort of stand. I just think that puts everybody in an uncomfortable situation. And it will happen to the US team as well and the not entirely unlikely event that they do well you'll you will find Trump inserting himself into this as he's already been doing more and more and more and he's going to keep injecting himself in the tournament and that's one of the things I dread the most. Well I mean he won the club World Cup. I mean if you he was right there man. Yeah. I was at the stadium for that and the reaction among the press box was just like one of it was it was a 50/50 mix of total uncontrollable laughter and gasps of horror because they couldn't comprehend that this guy just like did not know what to do in that moment or was intentionally doing this in that moment. In Cole Palmer's defense he's literally never seen Donald Trump before. No idea. No idea who any US president is at all. Very strange current stand. And the thing is at that presentation he pocketed one of the medals. Yeah. And wouldn't give it back. And then seen Reese James is asking him to leave the stage and it just won't do it. And in Fantino's just off screen too trying to try to drag him off. Didn't the eventous players were invited to the White House and a couple so they had Mr. Pulicic and. And McKenney, West McKenney and a handful of other players in the oval. And the waves. Or yeah, Timothy Wade was. Yeah, Timothy was. They were not happy about that. And yeah, that's exactly the kind of event that I'm talking about. Like they were basically wallpaper for Trump to say like look at these players that are here and I'm associated with this great team and these great American players that are playing in this great tournament and blah blah blah. But then he turns and talks about how he's going to restrict the rights of the LGBTQ community in all sorts of terrible ways. And Tim Wade himself said afterwards it was pretty weird. We really didn't know that was going to happen. And that's bad. That's really bad. To be fair, to Trump actually Chelsea did sign him as an attacking lift. I put him on a 10 year amortized contract. He just doesn't get in the 25 for the Champions League's own army. So yeah, I mean that's the thing isn't it because you went to Brazil 2014 and you didn't even have a name. And it's like being the host country and when our host country does well up until a certain point, you know, that is so important. I've kind of Mexico and USM as he go well in this tournament. It will be an amazing place to be because it just every game it sort of exponentially grows. Yeah, so like I didn't get into football until I moved to Amsterdam in 1999 and then Holland and Belgium co-hosted Euro 2000 and like by then I fully had the bug but I was exposed not only to like a proper mania around one of these tournaments but then hosting it as well. And when that country does well, Holland made it to the semifinals and had literally to this day still the worst loss I've ever seen for any team. It was so stupid and I'm still so mad. But regardless, ever since that I've been telling people like if you can get to a country that is hosting a World Cup, you know, and it's a country that really gives a shit about the World Cup, which is again every country but ours, like you have to do it. It is a legitimate cultural experience and you know, the permeation of this event in every walk of life while you were there is unavoidable and fantastic. And if we get that because in '94 we didn't give a shit about it. Like as I was telling these guys yesterday, I literally didn't know the World Cup was happening until I slipped through channels one day. I was like, "Oh, oh, the World Cup is starting." And it was a mile away from where I was in Chicago. And I had no idea whatsoever. But if this thing can come off and come off in a good way, it's going to be a really, really wonderful thing and as a potential to be a really wonderful thing and it's a wonderful energy to experience. But I have a pretty strong notion that it's going to be a little more fun in Mexico that it's going to be here. And Canada. Mexico is going to be both of us. Yeah, yeah, very likely. Yeah, I actually suggested because we need to be sort of West Coast for the times I'm able to watch every game and do the podcast afterwards. We do daily pods during the major tournaments and I checked and the Cook Islands was there. And we could, but the WiFi was just didn't quite hold up for my eight week trip to the Cook Islands. Okay, then, can the US, how well will the US do? What do you think, Alex? That is the question, isn't it? I am sort of of the opinion that there is almost no US finish that would completely shock me other than I don't think they're going to lose all their games in the group and I don't think they're going to go to the final and win it. Is that a very bold prediction to this? Yeah, I know, I know. Listen, I'm going out on a limb here. We're being recorded. So I'm saving my spiciest takes for other times. But yeah, I think they can be reasonably confident of making it out of the group. I think Australia and Paraguay are two really tough teams. How are we? I'm some dogged. Paraguay while Australia is going to be a dogged okay. It is, it is. But the thing to know is that Paraguay, Australia and if Turkey is one of the teams that is in the European playoff among one of the four teams that we might play as their third group opponent. And if it is Turkey who are the strongest of that group, all three of our group opponents will be teams that the US played in friendly in 2025, which is I think an incredible advantage. I think you have at least one run out. You get an idea of how the team might play and you have something at least to base it off of. That could be a really big advantage. So I think they'll get out of the group, although they will have played you. It's true. It's true. But like, they won't all have played each other. Yeah, it's true. So I think they'll get out of the group and then from then on it's knockout football. You know who knows. Anything could happen. It all depends on who they end up facing and how the rest of the groups go and how all that works out. But I feel confident they'll get out of the group probably when at least one knockout stage game. Have you plotted the route, Brendan? I certainly have. I've ambitiously purchased a couple of flights accordingly because I'm a dummy. But when the draw came out and the US avoided sort of the worst possibility in each pot, it felt very festive. It's a little bit more like, "We got this!" But then sort of reality said it. We also didn't get the worst enemy of these pots. There's no mugs. There's no tomato canes. If Turkey, I'd find out if Turkey, indeed, wins their playoff and comes through that on average of FIFA ranking, we have the hardest group in the whole Shabang. So, I am daunted. I am very daunted. The fact that most of the third-place teams get through is obviously very helpful but also kill the jeopardy of the entire group stage. But we'll put that aside. But there's something to have in your home fans around and sharing folks on. There's a reason why so many home nations have had their best performance in the tournament that they were hosting. So I think it would be a real disappointment if they didn't get out of the group. And then I think, again, some things have to go their way and all, but like, why not? I can curse on this, yeah? Why not the fucking semi-final? Come on! You know? Things can go their way and like, our best 11 is a pretty solid 11 nowadays. So I think it's worthwhile to be optimistic about because if you're not optimistic about it, then why are we doing this? I have to say I was really surprised at the reaction to the group draw because it was entirely based on, as you point out, Australia being the "weakest" of the "pot" too or whatever it was teams. But it's not as if we like Steam or Olden when we played them in the friendly. Paraguay is always a really solid team. They're tough to break down, especially in international competition. And you know, all four teams in the playoff are potential, have the potential to draw on upset. It'll be a group of four teams who all think they can get out. That's the problem. Which is kind of the dream, honestly. How are you feeling about the tournament, Barry? I know there's one thing that really hangs over you during these things. Yeah, well, we'll get to that. Every tournament has a dark horse. For the tournament starts, everyone picks their dark horse, the team that might do well, sneak under the radar. It's usually turkey. And they invariably have a disastrous tournament. I think this tournament's dark horse might be Norway. I think they've surprised a lot of people with the ease of the Twitch, they've won the qualification group in Europe, they've finished miles ahead of Italy, they've got Ireland, they've got Maritano Aldegar, various other decent breads, obviously the two star names. I think they might surprise a few people. I also think the heat is going to be a major factor in this tournament. It won't decide the winners, I think a few teams could come a cropper on the back of just the bad luck of the draws I've been given and the locations that we can't pick Paul Skulls again. Just to bear for this. I think Portugal is going to hurt them Germany or another team that have to play in sweltering conditions. My boys are a public of Ireland, haven't qualified yet. We might and if we do, we are absolutely going to get slaughtered. The last time Ireland played in the World Cup in the USA, they played Mexico in Florida, you'd all these pasty white Irish fellas running around. You could hear their skin crackling as one by one, Tommy Coyne and Steve Staunt and got stretched around, we were at Buckets of Water thrown over them. At least there was no heat breaks then. You weren't allowed to send bottles of water onto the pitch, they had little fun fair goldfish, plastic bags of water that, if you were lucky, you might catch one with a few drops left and it was thrown from the touch line. So I do think that heat's going to be a factor and obviously I can never enjoy any major football tournament truly enjoyed because I'm an Irishman, until England have been knocked out. I always start getting the fear a few months in advance that England will win a major tournament and I really, really, really don't want that to happen. So we watched every major tournament since 2018, World Cups and Euros, so 2018 England got to the semi-final, we lost to Croatia on, in extra time didn't we, and they were meant to be tired and they weren't tired and at the final whistle, Barry, I'm saying river danced in front of my face. He rejects this, but there was definitely some sort of jig. Euro 2020, we lost on penalties in the final to Italy, there is a filming, we watched it in my flat, we did the pod in my flat and someone's filming the last penalty and I can't remember if it's, I can't remember if Italy score or England miss it, I can't remember, England miss and the video pans round and I'm gutted and Joel is gutted and John Bruins gutted and Ellis James is a proud Welshman, just looks at the camera with a little right smile, Barry is absolutely giddy and my wife who doesn't, he hates football, James, you just said, "Oh Italy won, this is like 20 seconds later." And she's like, "It's everyone all right." And Barry just goes, "I'm fucking fine." So then World Cup 2022 was England France, I don't remember that was sort of, that was, you weren't that giddy about it, but then 2024 was the chef's kiss, sort of a famous moment in football weekly history, we started being filmed, they filmed podcasts now because we're too good looking and I can't remember if it was a semi-final of the finals, that's the semi-final I think Holland score, Javi Simmons score for Holland didn't he? Well it's not just being good, I can't remember, but one of them, the opposition score and I'm obviously devastated and Barry just does a chef's kiss like this. So after, then we record straight after I say, you know, Barry was like, "I didn't mind whatever whoever wins." And I said, "You did a chef's kiss and he was so adamant that he didn't do a chef's kiss that I started to doubt myself that he'd done a chef's kiss, yeah I was looking at him in the eyes and he'd done a, I know what a chef's kiss is right, you know, I know that, I know the emoji, I know a human being sitting five yards away from me doing it, he said he didn't do it and so I was like, okay, well this seems weird but fine, then I went home and then the producers are in the back and I just get this message on WhatsApp at like two in the morning going, "We got him." And it was like, it was like the FBI was like, it was so, oh, it's one of the greatest moments of my life. So you actually said yesterday I think that you think the US might win the World Cup before England win a World Cup. Did you say that to me? I said nothing of the sort, but to me, I like to take, but maybe I just made this, yeah I have no idea what's going on. Listen, I like to take, I do, I don't know that I have it, but I like it. In 2001 I did a two-hander deadenbrew festival with Seth Meyers who I'd to leave the festival early because he'd gotten this job in New York, but it was called "Ironic Yanks" and basically the central premise of it was that we felt the US was more likely to win a World Cup in our lifetime than England was and I love that in 2026 that is still in and do you have the fear this tournament? Or you think you'll be a winner? Why have the fear that England will win? I do, yeah, I mean there's a brilliant team, some brilliant players, obviously there are other brilliant teams and England, they're just getting close around to the door, but yeah I very much have the fear, yes. It'll really be something if what turned out that England was missing all those years was a German coach. Yes, that's magic. Swedish and Premier League start, like it was a big week, you're an Arsenal fan, so you're doing okay and you know we there's so much to talk about in the Premier League, but this is the thing that made me smile the most this weekend, this photo, we mentioned Erling Harland and here he is just booting the ball into. I mean I. Oh yeah, I think it might be one of the greatest football photos of all time. You call it Brendan, if you look at Thomas Suček who is the guy in the middle in the West Ham show, yes. Suček is thinking like, oh bro, you are a meme. For me it's all about the 50/50 nature of the impact. You see photos like this on occasion, you know when you look through photos as often as football journalists do, but it's rare that you see a true like half and half ball in face situation. It's like even today, I don't know what is it UK time, it's like Monday night, he's still lying in bed with the ball on his face. That is now him, like he comes on the pitch and his face is a football and forever more Mavropanos is sort of football man, like one of the worst Marvel superheroes. The fact that Harland is taking the shot as well is perfect, right? Anyone else it doesn't have the impact, but you know he's a Norse god who can kick the ball at a moment. It looks like that's exactly what he intended. Yeah, but where he's looking at Mavropanos is this I meant to do this to you. Also if you just sort of isolate Mavropanos's head and then is that O'Reilly? Yeah. If you picture that as a movie poster, it's almost as though O'Reilly is Mavropanos' face and is just coming out the back of his head and it's a John Wu situation and I see that movie. It's a heartbeat. Because South by Southwest as you all know is a big networking event. Barry and I were on the open top duck bus tour of Austin. We didn't really seem to meet any movers and shakers on there, but we were following the Arsenal Everton game and it was nil and the last of 73 minutes. I was like this has got last minute winner for Arsenal written all over it, the spawning bastards and that's what happened, Brenda. Did you start to fear during that game? You're like, "Oh, this is the bottling moment." Oh, I came in with fear. I was fear from kickoff onward. Particularly, I remember a few years ago, there was one of these runs towards second place that we've had and there was a match at Everton when Everton were particularly bad where Arsenal gave up two goals in the last five minutes. I still have Everton PTSD. When Max Dalman comes on, you start to feel excited, a little interested and sure enough, the lead came through. It's sad when someone good is a third of your age, isn't it? That's like, "Oh man, this is really bleak." How come you are an Arsenal fan? How did this happen? A few things came together. I'll give you the fast version, but yeah, so I moved to Amsterdam in 1999. I had basically zero interested in football before then, but I was like, "All right, I'll give it a shot." There was no broadband. I couldn't just keep up with the bulls of the bears. They were Dutch players on Arsenal, so I sort of gravitated toward them. It's like, "All right, these guys are fun." They play what I now know to be called attractive football. Not anymore, mate. Easy. But also at that time, I read "Fever Pitch" by Nick Hornby, which is about being an Arsenal fan, and though I knew no reference at all in it whatsoever, even FA Cup confused me. He's just such a good writer, and I just identified with it as talking about being a sports fan. But that drew me closer to Arsenal. Then one day, I'm passing a pub with my visiting aunt, and a TV is on outside, and it's too nothing, Chelsea at the bridge, and there's like 20 minutes left, and I'm drawn in just enough that my aunt says, "Oh, why don't you stay and watch this? I'll go into this internet cafe and check my email," which was a thing at the time. In that last 20 minutes, Kainu scores a hat trick. That's the car new goal for the corner 4. The third one in particular, still to this day, one of the best goals I've ever seen. That was you know, check done. All right, these are the guys. and been stuck with him ever since. - Yeah. - So, this could be the year, right? You're in such a great spot. - Hey, here's your goodbyes. Goodbyes. We'll see, we'll see, it's been a while. We'll see what happens. - Roaming with confidence. (laughs) I mean, you know, starting, we'll start with Sunday and this lead cup situation and see what happens, but it could be interesting. It's very satisfying when a ex-player comes to your club, whatever that in any sport and takes over because then it feels like a validation of a, you know, ephemeral and that-- - The DNA of a culture DNA. And like, what does it actually matter? But, so that's one thing that's exciting. But then on top of that, to have like the struggle and the inching forward every season, and even last year, like, yeah, second place again, but a Champions League semi for the first time in a long time. So you have this like addictive, you know, whiff of progress going forward and rarely do either of those things pay off, actually in something. And now they might both pay off and it's really a tender hooks time. And like, I've not quite had this exact feeling for any sports team that I support in the multitude that we have here on offer. And so it's incredibly tense and exciting. - Barry, what's the ultimate finish to this season for the neutrals, would you say? - Well, it's a bit kind of apparent to me anyway, but I'm quite physically, I'm quite a big man, but I'm in so many other ways a very, very small man. And I think ultimately for the neutrals, what we want is an arsenal collapse in the Premier League so that they come second again. Neutrals want, well, everyone, not just neutrals, everyone who isn't a Tottenham fan, one's Tottenham to be relegated from the Premier League to the championship. I think everyone would quite like Arasnus to win one of the smaller cups. So the Carabao Cup, like a Pate Cup. But nothing else. - Right. - That's the neutrals sense. And I don't know why it is. Maybe it's because the team I support, Sondland, their season is more or less over now. They got knocked out of the FA Cup two weeks ago, by the worst team left in it. But I was one of my friends who also support Sondland said, that wasn't even the top 10 most embarrassing things to happen Sondland in the last five years. So our season's over. So all I have now is enjoying the misery and stress of others. And it's not a good place to be, but it's where I am. (laughing) - We should talk about Rex and for a second. - Right, there's been a massive story in the US and it's sort of mad for a Cambridge fan, right? I see a team that you basically almost look down while like, oh, a team we're actually better than going this sort of mad, jury, and a very public journey. And what's interesting is everyone's like, oh, this is cool and this is fun. And these guys aren't like, I don't think, Rob McLean and Ron Reynolds have like a, our nation's state and have a terrible human rights record unless there's something I've missed. But you know, like, - I'm going out. They seem like good guys, they're doing a good thing, they're good in the community. And as they get good, you're like, actually, screw this. I hate this. I hate these bastards. I've got this money and I want it. How has there journey been viewed over here? - They have made, they are one of, I think, two recent, if you want to think about them as like, properties, along with Ted Lasso, honestly, that I think has turned on a lot of people in the US to the sport generally. And I think part of that is the, you know, the Hollywood star power that you mentioned. But I think what's really important about them is that they've done such a good job of storytelling. They have this show and the show is actually really well made and it introduces this human drama element that is a real thing. So you feel like there are real stakes happening. And they have really taken advantage of the structure of the English League and leaves all over the world and they're used to promotion and relegation. There is actually like a Cinderella element that can literally take place. You can take a team like Rexim that has a ground that isn't up to snuff, that has a really strong place in the community but just hasn't been a major team in a long time. And you literally can take them to the Premier League. They might actually go to the Premier League. That is actually crazy. And I am a certified journalist and a hater. So for a while, I was just like, why is everybody paying attention to Rexim? They're literally not that good at football. If they were, they wouldn't be in the fourth division or whatever. It's driving me crazy a little bit that this is a thing that turns people on. But then there's also the sort of angel on my side that says, however people get into it is good. Because they might get into Rexim and have that introduce them to the magic of football and everything that contains within that. And then they'll go, maybe take an interest in their local team. I really want the U.S. to have a thriving local scene. And if Rexim can be a door to that, then that's amazing to me. And as you point out, it becomes harder and harder and harder, honestly, for me to be cynical about Rexim because they're kind of owning the club, the way you would like a foreign owner to own the club. They have provided it with resources. They've connected with the community. And they've gotten out of the way of the sporting decisions, which I think is really important by and large. And all power to them, I think it's great. You think they might go up this year? I do. Yeah. And if they don't this year, it's only a matter of time. As soon as those two guys was rob and rob and rob. Yeah, they've been around. Their names are out there. Yeah, yeah. Well, they may be-- Ryan speaking's well of you, Barry. They've been in a very low profile. As soon as they got involved, I thought, yeah, they are going to end up in the Premier League within 10 years. It could be half that time. They seem to genuinely love the game. They have done so much for that. Paratroopers, creating jobs. There is a bit of a backlash against them. But I'm very cynical. Man, but I like what they're doing. By the standards of the championship, their players aren't massively overpaid. They're a highest earner. I think it's key for more. The striker who gets about 30 grand a week. And the next highest paid players in the squad get about 15 grand a week. They have young lad playing at full the back who came through their academy. I think he's on about 500 pounds a week. So they do spend a lot of money, boss. They're not absolutely massively taken to piss. Brendan, is there a of the two phenomena? Is it like Ancomand? Is it you versus Welcome to Rexham? Ted Lasso versus Welcome to Rexham? I didn't mean to pitch you against them. No, no, not at all. We are sister ships in the same journey. I absolutely love what they're doing. I mean, it's not only the dream come true for a fan, but from the sort of like, championship manager standpoint, you take your minnow and you make him bigger and bigger. In terms of it being doing well here, I mean, everyone loves an underdog, but this country is literally built on it. And so to see them ethylogy, to see the hickory high fantasy become this ongoing reality level after level, is terribly exciting. And yeah, and good on them for everything they've done. And you've just finished filming the new series. Well, I'm sure that's Rex. Season four is in the proverbial can, yes, but not the bathroom, the other one. And like, how much is it still a total joy? You're going to say yes, obviously, but-- Yes, everyone is wonderful. Nothing has changed. No, it's the best. Everyone's really good fun. It's a new crop of folks is here, where we're on the women's team now. And yeah, yay for women. Great lot of women fans here. That's nice. But yes, supposed to come out this summer? We'll see. That's actually true. But yeah, I'm pretty stoked about this great fun being back there. And yeah, we'll see how it goes. We have a minute left. You wanted to say-- we've said stuff about Ted Lasso. Having never watched it, you wanted to say something about the god, and I don't know if you've ever remiss. Actually, I had a quick plug too. The last couple of World Cups, the women's last men's, me and Rebecca Lo, of NBC Sports, have had a World Cup podcast called After the Whistle on Apple Podcast, and I'm here to announce. So we'll be back this summer as well. So please slide it over. If you want to ask a football week for you, can-- Don't listen less to this. There's room for both, everybody. But yeah, I'm here because I'm a fan of these fellows and of the Guardian and their football coverage in particular. For the fifth time, I moved to Europe in 1999 and trying to find my English language coverage, gravitated toward the Guardian, and have always found their writers. Even Jonathan Wilson, to be illuminating and amusing. And so it is my pleasure to be in these fellows' companies, not just great podcasters, the great writers as well. And again, I've been reading the Guardian for going on 27 years. And I like it so much that just a few months ago, I started paying for it. Yes. Hey, good man. You've read 850 articles this year now, coff up. We found out that football weekly lists are the most loyal and the tightest. And have you read in "Virgin the Pyramid"? Yeah, man. Oh, wow. Because we haven't. Right, 15 seconds to say thank you to a lot of people. Thank you to Alex Abnos. Thanks to Barry Glenn Denning to Brendan Hunt, to Joel Grove for producing this, to Danielle Stevens for "Execing It." Thank you to AI who's hosting this podcast next year, to Alanis Morissette. She was great. Thank you to the stool in the mockingbird pub that Barry set on for most of the week. Thank you to the audience for staying here. not leaving during it. We really appreciate it. Thank you and we'll be back on Monday. This is The Guardian.