Techo Kaigi and Creativity with Carola

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to Creative Refills by Plotter USA. Draw today's shape tomorrow. My name is Job. - My name is April. - And we're your host for this podcast about journaling, analog tools, and everything about the world of Plotter and system planners. How are you doing, April? - I'm doing really good, Job. Seattle's getting cold. It's that time of the year. The leaves are changing color. I know you're missing home. And it's just beautiful. Although I am a little bittersweet about summer ending because I do love summer in Seattle. But right now everything's orange and yellow. And it just feels a little wistful because I think the year is just gone by so much. So I'm a little sad too. Like, oh my goodness. It's kind of intense that it's already October. I mean, I like to think that it's autumn. I mean, it technically is autumn, but you can't feel that here in SoCal. It is still really warm. I have my electric fan on. - Is it a very bright and very sunny everywhere? - It's funny 'cause like there's pumpkins and other like fall decorations everywhere, but it doesn't feel cold. We're all still in shorts and t-shirts. - I'm in long sweaters and running into spider webs everywhere. So yeah, definitely different. - But yeah, I definitely agree with what you said. We're kind of like three fourths way through the year. So it feels like, you know, we're reaching the end of the year and we've had a few milestones already. - Yeah. And this is also a critical timing for planner people like us. Pretty much a lot of people are mentally preparing their next year's lineup, right? For those who know the stationery speak, the notebooks and the journals or the diaries that you're using for next year. And some people do it earlier, but this is pretty much the time of the year to do what we call a Tetokai-gi. And I think we explored this topic in a previous episode. Tetokai-gi is a review and a meeting about analog systems that, you know, we designed for ourselves, like what works for us for this year. And this is the time, you know, October-ish, to kind of be reviewing that this work, do I need a new type of journal next year to that works for my pens or work for the kind of tasks that I have. And of course the big brands around the country, around the world are doing planner launches and sales. It's pretty intense out there. It's the Wild West of journaling season right now. - There's so much going on, but unfortunately I have not done any Tetokai-gi or any planning of what I'm using. I feel like each year that goes by, I get later and later. I just know that I need to get my plotter diary refills. So that's something I need to secure. But other than that, I'm still kind of like undecided, but maybe that's a good thing. - I already know what I want to do. So I'm very prepared. But this episode is going to be extra fun, extra interesting because as I, as we shared in our previous episode, our first episode of the season two, we're doing something a little different. We're inviting guests, specifically plotters, people who use plotters to come join our conversations about the letter binders, talk about our favorite stationary tools. And in the season, we are introducing fresh perspectives to not just Job and I using our 10 plotters, but some other people who may have three. And for them to come and share their analog stories and their systems. - Yeah, I want to welcome our friend, Karola, or from Karola on Instagram, who's a fellow Vancouverite like me. So this feels like a little slice of home during this podcast, but let's welcome Karola. - Hello, I'm so happy to be here. Shout out to Vancouver. - Shout out to Vancouver. Thank you for hopping on the podcast with us. - Could you introduce yourself and maybe talk a little bit about your creative hobby? - And what you do, things like that? - Yeah, so I'm Karola on socials I'm known as from Karola. And yeah, I'm a stationary enthusiast and artist based out of Vancouver, Canada. And on socials, I share how I use stationary for creativity and mindfulness. And that's in hopes of inspiring others with my creative process. And I like to encourage others to use their stationary in creative ways as well. I also teach workshops online and in person, such as my abstract floral art class that I taught at the San Francisco Pen Show last year and this year, and it was so fun. - Karola's known as our savior for people who hoard inks because people like us with so many bottles of inks. There's no way, I think, yeah, definitely to use up all of them in my pens is gonna take more than a few decades. And Karola's abstract floral workshops that I've seen you do on streams and like Twitch streams, live streaming or in your workshops, just such a great way to use up a lot of inks and enjoy them. - Yeah, so I love painting with, I first started painting with watercolor paints, but then I started buying bottles and bottles of fountain pen inks as we do. - Relatable. - Yeah, right? And so I started painting with fountain pen inks and basically created this process of abstract floral art using inks. And so I love when I can see people using up their inks and using their supplies because it's such a fun way to enjoy what we have. - Exactly, and actually painting with inks is sometimes more interesting than watercolor because all these inks in the market, sorry, we're getting into the stationary talk now for those who are here for the leather binders, but inks on the market have so many different properties. Some are shimmery, some are gradient, so and some are chroma shading. So when you put them on paper, sometimes with paintbrushes, sometimes with dip pens, they interact differently from watercolor and it's extra special in my opinion. - Yeah, and I like to nerd out on my Twitch streams when I'm painting with fountain pen inks. So if you join me, yeah, it's me basically being like, "Ooh, look at the shimmer and look at the sheen." - Yes, the sheen, especially. There's these trends lately. You know how people like using coloring books, and then it goes to coloring books for adults, right? You're still using colored pencils, but I am really appreciative of the most recent trend, which is coloring books for fountain pen enthusiasts because now you're actually using the inks and coloring large surfaces and it's a great way for us to go through our stock and we get to enjoy painting like a kid. And I think that's really what it comes down to even with your workshops is explore that childlike wonder. There's no restriction, paint outside the line too sometimes. And I think that's what a lot of us these days, I mean, we're all working professionals, most of the listeners I think too, we kind of forget to have fun a little bit while we're in our everyday grind or creative process. - Yeah, and I always like to say like most people, especially when they take my workshop, they see my thorough art and their reaction is, "I can't do this." - That's true. - And yet you can, right? Like you don't have to think you're an artist to actually make art. And so I like to encourage people to just take out your inks and start playing with it and go with the creative flow. And by the end, whatever it turns out to be, you're going to love it because of the process that it took you to get there. And that brings out the joy. - Exactly, it's the process. It's that time you take out of your day, I tell people, to sit down with your tools and just enjoy them, not just looking at them or thinking about, okay, the result has to be a work of art or if you're writing like a disaster, it'd be a masterpiece or essay. You guys should see my diary entries in my, take a note, they're just random scribbles and rantings and these days at least, lots of ranting, in beautiful fountain penmanship, but just tons of curse words and things like that. - Yeah, this is off topic, but in relation to fountain pens, I like to use an architect when I'm like really angry and writing in uppercase 'cause it just looks really nice. - Very bold and angry if you need to. I know, Joe, you like using brush pens, right? Sometimes when you-- - Oh yeah, sometimes I'm just like, I don't know how to emphasize this more so I like use the biggest, boldest brush pen you can. I feel like there's a lot of anger in our diary pages for huge headings, yes. - Speaking of our tools that we like to use, do you wanna share some of your favorite analog tools that you do? I mean, if you wanna start getting into Techo Kaigi of yours, I mean, we love to hear about it too. - Yeah, my favorite, I like all stationaries, so I am very much a brush pen, hand lettering, fountain pen enthusiast, so I will use all kinds of stationery, all kinds of pens. - I don't discriminate, so if it enhances my experience and makes me enjoy the writing experience and the creative process, then I will use it and I will find ways to get the most out of that experience and so I use all sorts of tools and for me, it's a combination of pen to paper and then where I, like what book I'm kind of using or where I store that paper. And so when we're talking about Techo Kaigi and planner and journal stacks, I'm usually thinking about what books or systems are keeping me mindful in my practice, like whether it's creative or planning and then also how can I get the most out of the tool itself, the analog tool. And in terms of, in a creative sense, practicing something over and over helps me build muscle memory and so that's why I like using analog tools and then in a practical sense, it helps me commit something to memory and so when it comes to planners, I'm looking for something where I can jot down my schedules, appointments and tasks and see it from a bird's eye view, so I'm very much like a weekly layout person and then from a daily sort of journaling perspective or memory keeping, I like to have a daily layout where I can sort of jot down the highlights of every day and archive those memories in a way and so I think that just bringing this all into a loop, like the reason why I use analog tools are very practical and functional, but also because I'm just a stationary person, I love stationary, I like to enhance that experience as much as I can. - Something about using really nice tools makes you feel good in that process, right? Like I own a ton of plotters, I use fountain pens and even though I'm just doing writing down mundane tasks for the week, it gives me that little bit of joy for that action and hey, if that help enhances that experiences for me and motivates me to do more of it in the future, like it motivates me to do laundry more than once a week. Sorry guys, I'm like disgusting, but then yeah, go for it. Like I think that's a great way to think about like why we embrace, you know, our favorite tools. - Yeah, I think that's exactly it April. Like for me, it's the joy, the joy and experience and then the joy in sharing that with others who are also into stationery and planners and journals and things. And yeah, you know, you could just write down your tasks for the day, but I think as stationary people, we like to experience like tactile sort of, you know, we like to feel things and hear things, crinkle, paper and just watching ink flow from pens. And as nerdy as that sounds, a lot of it for us is like, that is the experience of, you know, writing something down. - Correct. And I liked your point about practicing too. I think that probably speaks a lot to your confidence in your after floral workshops too. Like a lot of people who are just starting any creative project, they get intimidated. They think, oh, I can never do this. They see spreads from other people who look, that looks really fancy or look really nice. And they think, oh, that's the destination I will never get there. I don't have the talent for it. But just like you said, it's actually you need that process of building that muscle memory of drawing and painting and making it comfortable. And I think I get that a lot because I'm also an urban sketcher. A lot of people come by and watch my drawing and they say like, wow, your drawing is so nice. Like how you're so talented. And I can never do it. I said, no, you can literally start today. You do it every day or you do it every week. 'Cause how I started was I went to urban sketching meetups once a week for a whole year. And that's how I got to be more confident about my drawings leading up to today. And I think that's the mind, the mental barrier that a lot of people need to just get over. It's not about how you get there. It's about when you start, right? So on that note, I want to dive into your current system. You say you like the weekly layout. You like a daily layout journal. What's your current lineup now for those who are interested to hear about Karola's process? How many books? How many of them are there? (laughing) - How many books? So I tend to keep about six to seven books in my lineup. - Four reasons of them? (laughing) Is it? - I don't know. - For April. (laughing) - But that includes planning and journaling. And most of it, I would say, is journaling and some sort of creative practice. I like to keep one or two planners, one main one, so one catch all. And that's my plotter, A5. - Yeah, so it's sort of like a catch all. It has everything that's life related in it. And it's what keeps me feeling grounded. So if I need to know anything, what's going on in my life, I can always go to my catch all planner. And then I like to have a smaller portable daily planner or notebook. And for this year, I'm using, so the A5 plotter. And then I also have the Hobonichi Weeks. And that's because it's so portable, I can just throw it on my bag and go. And so that kind of encompasses my planning routine. In terms of journaling, I like to have something as an archive. So I have a five year journal where I just write down the events of the day, so everything that has happened in the day. And the purpose behind this five year journal is that it's something I can pass on to my kids. So I have twin daughters who are seven right now. And they're just starting to get into journaling and planning. - Nice, aww. (laughing) - So I'm just-- - Start them young. (laughing) - So I'm penabling them. And I'm getting them into journaling a little bit. - Kids. - And so if they, I think my thought around it is if they see me practicing, having a routine around journaling and planning, then I can encourage them to do it as well. And so one day, I can pass on a five year journal and they can sort of flip through and see what happened. And I love that sort of thought of like archiving your memories for someone else to look at later down the road. And then on top of that, I have a memory keeping weeks as well. And that's more for stickering and washy taping and all of the accessories. Because I tend to sort of, when I'm planning, I keep it very functional. I use pretty much pen only, so fountain pens, but no sort of aesthetic look to it. Just because I don't need the pressure on top of just trying to stay on top of tasks. (laughing) But then when I have time, I do the memory keeping. And for that, I take out all my stickers and ephemera and all those things. And that's where I go wild. So have fun with the tools like we were just talking about. Take out that cute little sticker washy tape decoration. I have one for that kind of atmosphere. - Yeah, exactly. Like use your stash, right? Use your stationery. We tend to hoard stickers and for that like perfect moment to use it. And it never comes. So, you know, take out your book and just use it today. But enjoy the experience, right? Like enjoy the experience of peeling that sticker backing and putting it down on paper. So yeah, and then, you know, I have a couple of other books that I use one actually specifically for hobbies. And that's what I've used a mini five square for actually. - Our new dimension, I would say, the plotter in the mini five square. - Yeah, yeah. I'm embarrassed about Karola's story about how she got hers. - Yeah, I'll have to tell it. - I actually don't know this story. - Do you want me to tell it now? - Yeah, go ahead. - Let's hear it. - Yeah, so my mini five square. So I'll take you back to the California Pen Show in February. And here I am. I was actually thinking of taking a look at the mini five. - You already had a Bible size and a five at that point. She's like, I'm good. She just did a video last year too. Like these are my, my solid choice. - And a mini six. - Oh, that's right. - Yeah, so I had three plotters already. And I thought, okay, I don't need a fourth, but if I was going to get one, it would probably be the mini five. And so I went to the California Pen Show and sprinted to the table, elbows out. And basically I stopped at the table and looked at, you know, the different covers. And I was like, oh, they do have the show limited, mini five square. There was a purple and I think there was a wine colored one. - In the Pueblo leather. - In the Pueblo leather. And I thought, oh no, they're really pretty, but I don't think I'm going to get one. And lo and behold, April, she popped up and said, hey. - From behind the table. - From behind the table. And she was like, are you looking at, like, can I help you with something? You know, are you looking at plotters? And I thought, well, okay, I'll talk to her about the mini five square. I'm not really thinking of getting it, but it looks really pretty. And she whips out a mini five square. And it was the purple, right? - Because we didn't show any physical samples. It was very limited. I bought one that morning because I really liked the purple color. And then for all the people who came to the table, I was like, oh, so it looks like this. And I opened the case. - But not only did she say, it looks like this. She opened it up and she said, touch it. - Like a steak oil seller. - Let me tell you, if April says to look at her plotter or to touch her plotter, do not do it unless you're willing to fall in love with it. - I have that charm. - So I mistakenly touched it and I thought, oh no, I love it. I need it. - I love what you're doing with it though, right? - Yeah. - What you're doing now is the hobby planner or hobby journal. It's your mini catch all. You do scribbles, doodles. And I love the part where you actually added a planning element to it by using the mini five size diary refills. - Yeah, I love that you know the same role. - I lurk in your streams. - Yeah, and yeah, so after I got the mini five square, I thought, okay, it's my emotional support plotter pretty much. I like to carry it around. I like to touch it. I like to smell it. - Okay. But shout out to Karina loves to plan because when she sees me at a pen show, at the SF Pen Show, she called out purple square 'cause she knew I would whip it out. And I thought, okay, I could use it as a place to sample pens, right? Like when you're sitting, getting a custom lip grind or something like that and you're testing out pens, it's a great place to sort of, the paper is great for fountain pens, right? Shout out to DP paper. - Yes. - And so I, you know, I started sampling pens on there and aim testing. And I also have, or I also had a paper or a refill pad in the back. So if anyone was like, oh, do you have paper to test this pen on? I could just, you know, hand out a paper. - Nice. - And so it's convenient, right? And yeah, and just like you said, April, I got the mini five monthly diary refills. And I plan on using that to track like book reading when I start, finish reading a book. And it's just a small space, right? So it's just like great for like habit tracking type of thing, but hobby and interest related. - I got my mini five square. Right now it's a permanent lineup in our potter online store now in the Shiranami leather, which I'm very tempted about to buy. Joe got to use the one that we have for work. So he gets to try it on the daily basis. But I have it in the Pueblo wine that I also got last, I actually got them last year as a pen show. And like, I brought it to our Pelican Hub that happens every year where a lot of fountain pen enthusiasts meet. And I just use it to, for people to try. Like, watch your ink on here. Or let me write with your pen in this one. And the fact that I treat it like a luxury notepad. (laughs) I don't want to baby it. I want to just use it, have other people touch it. And right now it's on my desk beneath my laptop. Cause you know when you open it, it's like that nice long rectangular shape. I use it for daily kind of mental notes. Like I'd be writing an email and like, oh shoot, I need to ask Joe to do something with the subheading of that article. And but I don't want to do it now cause I will get extremely distracted. So I like write that down before that thought like is gone. (laughs) It's got like my temporary note keeping place that doesn't need a space on the internet. And then I could like go back to it. So once you get over the hump of, oh I need to, this is, this needs to be worthy. Like my handwriting needs to be worthy of this system. Or like my, whatever I put in it needs to be worthy of it. Once you get over that, it's actually really reassuring to find a companion system like that to, to just be reliably. Like I can, I know where I can dump my thoughts. I know where I can go for all these doodles or things that I just needed to let out of my head during the day. And then that's your great commonplace notebook. And I just love how you even like added the monthly calendar to it to make it even more functional. So, great abuse. (laughs) - I can't copy that. - Great safe refills. - You were welcome to copy that. And I can't wait to report back on how it goes. - Nice, nice. - But part of the, along the lines of what you're saying, April, part of what attracted me to Plotter in the first place was that flexibility of, you know, using refills but not having to keep them because it's not part of a hardbound book. So you're not committed to, you know, keeping that page if at the end of the day you think, oh, that's chicken scratch. Like this is not worth keeping. So toss it, you know, recycle the paper and move on. - Correct. - And so I love that. I love that you can, you don't have to commit to each and every single page that's in your system. - I find that an issue with other precious notebooks that I have with like this really good, no longer available paper is that I, I baby it and I feel bad if I wrote something that's not worthy of it, but, you know, maybe that's another mental hurdle I need to conquer too because at the end of the day, these are all just notebooks and paper and products that is supposed to help you do what you want to do. So yeah, I do appreciate Plotter being that place, you know. If you want to start a new page, there you go, rip out that old page and then start a new one. And then I know Job, you do it too. Like at the end of the year, you recycle and just like take out all the old work notes. You know what, this looks back to your thing about it's the process. This is a tool in your process and you don't have to really care too much about what you have left at the end of the day. You know, if there needs to go, it can go. And as long as it helped you during that process, then that's all that matters. I wanted to like dive in into your Bible and like the ones you use for planners too. But I mean, we're on that topic now. I want to talk about planner about the diary refills 'cause this is the time of the year, especially like us, the prepared ones. (laughing) But diary refills from Plotter are typically released as early as July. (laughing) You're like, what, why are we looking at data pages for next year in July? I think the Japanese people, they just like to be prepared, you know, they needed to get their system down. So it's released, we just released it early August, I believe, Plotter is really straightforward. There's a lot of various layouts out in the market that you can go for if you're into printables and stuff 'cause you can always punch holes and use it. But Plotter kind of gives a more straightforward view of just two things, like the monthly calendar and then the weekly schedule layout. Do you get both styles for your sizes or? - Yeah, I do. (laughing) And I wanted to just point out that I got my A5 diary refills at the SFN show. - Oh, nice. - Yeah, I was like, I'm gonna pick it up in person 'cause I know what I want and I'm gonna get it, so. (laughing) - Awesome. I get both too. I do both for my A5 size, which is for work, and then I do both for my Bible size, which is my planner. Job, do you use all of them or do you only use the weekly? I forgot. - I use both, I mean, I technically use the monthly. Do I fill it out, like all the time? Maybe not, but I refer to it a lot. - Well, Karol, what do you think about keeping physical planners in this day and age, like the digital world, everyone's AI, Google calendaring, where are we holding on to? To our pens and writing in tiny blocks. - Gripping our fountain pens. (laughing) Yeah, you know, luckily in my situation, I don't, I'm not tied to a digital planner or a digital calendar, as some may be for work and other situations, and that's fine, but for me, I stick to analog, even though I potentially could just do it as a digital calendar, because, again, it's the act of writing commits things to memory for me, and ever since grade school, when they first introduced those planners and it became part of, you know, school routine. - Yeah, the diaries, we used to be handed. Do they do that these days? Does your kid get them? - They do, they still do. - Yeah, my kids got them in grade one. - Maybe it's a Vancouver only thing. (laughing) Is Canada still doing the over? - Yeah, actually, I'm not quite sure. - No, I'm like, I'm worried for the next generation. Do they get these nice planners that, I mean, they're not nice, but like the school ones, but like, yeah, me growing up, I mean, we're all in the same generation, we grow up just having those, like it's a very natural thing. - Yeah, and we look forward to them every year, even though the paper is not great, and the font is, you know, but no, my girls got them in grade one, and so at least in Canada or British Columbia, they give the planners. And that's one thing or one routine from school that I have never given up. And I've continued that. And I remember, you know, 15 or 16, and I started journaling, you know, Dear Diary, as one does, writes about their crushes and things like that, or when you're angry with your friends. (laughing) And I never gave that up either. So I've continued just keeping a record of every day of just minimal things that may have happened, but that add up to, you know, a very eventful life. (laughing) Yeah, so yeah, I think that's why I keep an analog planner because part of it is, you know, that like just writing something down will make me feel like I'm on top of everything. Even if I'm not, it just gives me that sense of control. And I choose to write this stuff down. I'm intentional and mindful when I'm writing down these are the important things in my life for this week, for this day, for this month, et cetera. And part of that is just giving me that control of, you know, priorities and knowing what's important for me. I like the word intentional here 'cause you're actively making decisions about your day and your prioritization. I read something a lot 'cause AI is just so prevalent in our day, every day routine now, at least here, I think in the United States. But there's a article really talking about the need for agency as a human being. And I think, I agree with you, I think that's probably why they give kids these diaries, you know, like they trained, or not trained, it's a process of teaching them how to make conscious decisions about what they need to care about for the day, for the week. Starting with writing down your school itinerary, you know, like we have all these classes we have to go to. And so what comes first, what take away what important things from this class. And now that I think about it, I think that actually is a really important part of growing up, it allowed us to be more autonomous. What's, is that the right word, autonomy? Yeah, like to be, to have more responsibility on our decision making. And I think that's why, like now it's obviously ingrained into our habit, we can't live without it. We felt like it definitely makes me feel more in control. And even though I have tools like Google Calendar to assist me, there's nothing like looking at my physical word calendar right now. 'Cause I can't, I obviously can't write the fact that I'm taking cookie to a grooming appointment in my shared word Google Calendar. So having it in my monthly, physical monthly calendar in my plotter, I can see, oh, I have a meeting with my boss this morning, but at the afternoon, take cookie to, you know, do a fecal sample, have them check his poop, you know, things like that. - Oh, cookie's my dog by the way. - Cookie's her dog by the way, just in case anyone's listening. It's like wait a second. - Wait a second. So, you know, there's, there's that too, like this ability to allow me to be flexible. My goodness. I just realized what I did. That's crazy. Cookie's my dog. So yeah, I love it. I love that you, you said that it's something that's intentional and it helps. Like absolutely. I think it's very easy to, even if you have it on a calendar or if it pings you on your phone, writing things down really help with the memory. Like Job, do you find that as well? Like, I was just a master of notion and all these tools. - I love digital tools, but I think something about writing things down, like even when I was teaching I would always tell students to always write it down because it'll help you remember it better. It's just, you know, I'm sure there's more, we can go scientific, the neural pathways. - I'm sure there's something about like certain, certain electric thing goes through your brain when you like move your finger and like from the tip of your hand, like it like sparks off different parts of your brain. - No, I'm sure there is, but it's just like, I think in just like a, in history, like people have already just used paper and pencil to remind themselves of things and it's, you know, if it isn't broken, you don't have to fix it. So it's worked for people in the past and it continues to work for us today. - Yeah, and let's not forget the joy we feel when we accomplish a task and get to check it off or cross it out, right? - So satisfying. - Yeah, as simple as, you know, doing a laundry or some, you know, some chore that's kind of sitting there and you don't feel like doing it. It's just the act of writing it down and then getting to say, I did it. It's like this small feeling of accomplishment. - I know that, that check mark, so satisfying. Or having the space to doodle while you're in a work meeting. - I don't know, but I think there's some articles about people who like, that's not multitasking, but like, for some people who like attention they need, like if you do something with your hand at the same time, like it actually helps with your memory or something like that, at least it works for me. - It's true. I'm just been stroking my plotter the whole time we've been talking about it. - Emotional support. - Emotional support. - It's like, get that patina on that leather (laughing) - Yeah, there's something about that. I definitely felt like I learned something about that in psychology or something, but you know, it's nice. It's such a helpful tool, no matter what notebook system you use in your everyday, I think, routine. It's reassuring at the same time. Even if you don't write in it, like Joe says, he doesn't really fill his weekly, but knowing that it's there for you, I think. - It makes me feel very comforted. (laughing) We really need to rebrand plotter as an emotional support system. (laughing) Looks good and calms you. - Yeah, it really is though, right? It's so tactile, like especially, I think a lot of stationary people are very much about the sensory part of stationary as well. Just like, you know, getting to feel things, touch things. They're very, you know, they sort of reflect back to us different sounds and textures that we enjoy. And if we don't enjoy it, then we stay away from that kind of stationary, right? And so I think for plotter to have the different types of leather covers that you can stroke and you can sort of touch and hold on to, it's like that extra layer of, I'm not just using this for productivity or organization or creativity, but you're also using it to hold on to, to constantly reach for it. Because you enjoy, you know, you enjoy the feel of it. - Yeah, and what's life if not, it's just a constant string of like, you know, people seeking enjoyment. 'Cause like, otherwise, if your end goal is just to, you know, achieve some sort of enlightenment in wealth or success, it feels boring. Like I would rather focus on these little moments that I have every day of joy. I think that's really what stationary really comes in for people who likes, who enjoys analog tools. Nice. Give me a brief rundown about your plotter planner, how you use them for your daily tasks. And then I think that pretty much like takes us to the end of the episode. I just want, I personally want to know how you can do this. (laughing) - So I have four planter, four plotters right now. And I use them in some capacity. So the A5 plotter I use as a catch-all, it's my work horse, it's the horse hair too in gray. - The literal horse. - It's a literal horse and it feels like a horse now. So, and I love the A5 because of the size and kind of how you mentioned before about, you may not need to use all that space, but having it there for me to be able to write down things if I need to is comforting. Like having that space available that I don't need to sort of cram into something just feels good. And so I use that for planning. - Are you a blank page person or a grid or a rule type of person? - I'm a grid. All the way. - Nice. - I love grid, but that being said, if I'm going to use it in a creative way, then I use the blank page. And then I have the Bible size, which I got last year because I intended to use it as a planner and I did for a little bit. And then I realized, I think I want more space and so I upgraded to the A5. But for now, the Bible size is more for catching notes around projects that I'm working on or ideas for content that I want to create. So more of a creative space maybe than my A5 would be. And then I still have the mini six, which I got in 2022. That was my first purchase. I got the mini six because I have to shout her out because it's all because of Cecilia at Scientist Plans. Who shared on YouTube videos of how she was-- - We interviewed her back then too. She's one of our first plotters. - Yeah, first plotters and such an enabler. And an awesome Canadian. So after I saw her YouTube videos, I thought, you know what, I could use this in like fun, creative ways. And so the mini six is my, I would say like commonplace type of notebook or system. I jot down notes and just thoughts that come to me that, you know, don't need to be in my planner. And so that's how I use that. And that's the shrink leather blue. Such a pretty fun color. - That's a very Cecilia color. Thinking back to her blue obsessions. - Yeah, exactly. And then yeah, my latest acquisition, the mini five square. And that's in the purple. And I love it. It is, like I said, my emotional support plotter because I can't stop sort of carrying it around with me for no real reason, just as a companion. - Hey, it's in my purse right now too, like for going out. Like I have my mini five as a wallet and the mini five square actually goes with me everywhere too. Just as a place to jot things down. - Yeah, yeah. So that's how I'm using them. I won't say that I won't add more plotters to my lineup. - Never say never. - Never say never because there's the narrow size and you know, and different types of leathers. But like I said, I feel like the plotter system is so flexible that regardless of what I'm using it for, I can always change it up. I can always, like there's no real commitment to just one purpose for the cover. And so I love that about it. And I love the creativity of being able to use different refills in different ways. And even the diary refills for tracking and planning different things. - You literally just answered my last question for you. I was gonna ask what kind of person do you think plotter is for and I think you answered that perfectly. - That's amazing. - Yeah, like if I was gonna sort of bring it into who this is for and I'm thinking me or you, April and Job. But I would say someone who's looking for flexibility, someone who is looking for ways to push themselves creatively because it is technically a blank slate, right? You have the cover, but then you're filling it with different types of refills that work for your situation and what you wanna use it for. And one of my goals for 2026 is to try to use my 85 as a planner, but also a space where I can journal if I want to, I can memory keep if I want to, right? Instead of putting sort of the planner label on it, letting myself think outside of just using it as one purpose, right? And while it's functional and practical, I also think there's so much room for creativity and using it in an artful way that makes it really exciting and interesting. - That's amazing. Thank you for giving us that rundown. I feel honestly very inspired because the same year that both of you bought your mini five square, I also bought one and I haven't really used it. So I'm leaving this episode feeling inspired to try the different sizes, but also just take Karola's approach to plotter and the flexibility that it affords its users. But thank you Karola for joining us on creative refills. Karola shares her creative journey through various platforms and you can find her on Instagram, YouTube and Twitch and substack with the username @fromkarola. And I hope listeners enjoyed this episode, April and I are looking forward to more fun conversations in the next episode. - Thanks, Jobe. I'll talk to you in the next episode. - Thanks for having me. - Thank you, Karola. Draw today, shape tomorrow.