Teachers Talk Born a Crime

Welcome to Teachers Talk Text. The podcast where English teachers share their insights and interpretation of texts currently studied in BCE English. I'm Neil Host, Player Mackey. Let's dive into today's episode. In the spirit of reconciliation, Teachers Talk Text acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. Hello everyone, welcome to Need listeners, and welcome back to those who have listened before. I really enjoyed both the preparation for this conversation in reading "Border Crime" by Trevor Noah and the conversation itself with Sonny and Bear, who's able to so definitely navigate both the really humorous aspects of this novel, but also the dark, red, more insidious elements of violence and abuse. I have to say, I never expected to be discussing a scene where a character makes a choice to go to the bathroom on the floor when I started this podcast. Nor did I imagine such a scene to have such depth of meaning, but you'll have to keep listening for that goal. Enjoy! Sonny, thank you so much for joining me on Teachers Talk Texts. Ah, it's a pleasure I'm thrilled today. Yeah, I love a good chat. Absolutely, and I'm so excited to talk about "Border Crime" by Trevor Noah. I read it in preparation to talk to you today and I could not put it down. I put it. That's a great read isn't it? Just every moment that I could, I just wanted to pick it up again and read it. I haven't, I mean, obviously I've read books like that before, but maybe not always on the 12th text list sometimes. Yeah, and I think that that's why I love it. Both my kids, my teenage kids, have read it in the last few years as well and both loved it. And I think that, as you said, not always the case when you have a text that's booklisted. So I think that that's one of the reasons that I really love it because it's a, I mean, it's just a really good story. And I almost feel like it needs to come with a caveat for students like, don't read this is a book for school. Read this is a book just because you want to read a book. It's a life. Yeah, yeah. Is the voice is so personal, you know, he's hilarious, but it's also really moving. I couldn't put it down the first time I read it and I just, I love the way that he's, he's able to transport his voice back into the psyche of, you know, a cheeky little kid. And I think that that's really fun and playful even though the stories it's quite very thicker times. The way he does it with, you know, sarcasm and also that voice of a child. Yeah, I think, I think it's really good fun. I also think one of the things that he does a really well and this is, I guess a bit of a comedy trope is to work against the emotional details of some of the anecdotes in the story. So some of the, you know, that they're harrowing, but because he's able to tell these stories is such a comedic voice, you kind of that tension relishes is ever present. So you never feel too woundly. Sorry, tightly wound, woundly. I like woundly. I didn't like to make up words. I mean, you never feel so tightly woundly in a burst. Maybe at the end, I know, I think I had it flying. Yeah. You had it cry too. I did. I did. Yeah, I think he's a, you mentioned that he is situated in, you know, his child, persona, he takes us back with his voice so effectively to the child. Persona, perhaps, is that also part of it because as a child, as a child, he didn't, he acknowledges that he didn't really, truly understand the full ramifications of the experiences that he finds himself in. And we as adult readers and even as our students as almost adult readers, we'll understand more than young Trevor understood, but he allows us, he's, is it, he distances us a little bit from the violence and the horror that he's experiencing. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that what, like there's an example of that in the, um, the final chapter. I think it's called My Mother's Life and chapter eight and eight and the, um, because he uses those, um, the, the preface, like, beautifully. And the preface to that chapter is about, um, I'm just trying to find it here. It's about, um, custard and jelly. So a lot of the chapter, he kind of puts into context with something that's, like political or the story or cultural and he frames his own personal experience in that way, but that chapter, which is about, that's when his mum gets shot in the haves. Yes. Um, he, the preface to that is my favourite, the service line, my favourite thing to eat as a kid and still my favourite dessert of all time was custard and jelly. What Americans were called, jelly. So I think, he, you know, by, by using that as the preface to that chapter, it's always like a suggestion that he's, he was so, um, artificially protected by his mum and so in his, his own childhood world, that, these are the details that he's prefacing this story, we? Yes. That's what, that's what stands out in his mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're just, you know, again, it's, it's sort of in line with the idea of that lightheartedness and humour that comes through in such bleat, um, star reality. Um, and I think is what makes the text such a joy to read. Is it, there's heavyness and complexity, but the voice is comforting. Yeah. And you, um, you wrote the, the, date notes, teaching notes for the S. Wedding. I will definitely put a link to in our show notes and on the Instagram because they're fabulous. Um, and one of the things that stood out for me was, um, your very, very wise recommendations to teachers about, um, building into this text with some context, um, because I think I, I, I thought I understood a part of it, but I did it. Yeah. In the way that I do now after having read this text. So, perhaps, I mean, I had enough context of it from completing, you know, university degree, but then I, I'm now thinking what other text would I have read or what other text really effectively, um, here in Straits. Yeah. There's a, a fantastic memoir, and I'm probably in a pronounce, her name, wrong, which is why I will also wacky in a suggestion that you listen to the audiobook. Yes. Overnore, if you ask study, because it will help you with pronunciation. Um, when you want to have those classroom conversations, it's important to not be the same. Yeah. It is. I'm familiar words, um, but so song came in this man wrote a book called Always Another Country, and it's a memoir from her perspective growing up in South Africa, um, with that a very politically driven, resistant rebellious father and how they were always on the wrong. So she was black, South African, um, and she immigrated to Australia, and she, it's a really fascinating memoir because she talks about her own childhood as well, but then arrives in Australia as an adult and is able to reflect on that, some of the contextual in actions between, you know, government policy here, that, um, historically being so racist, and, you know, her experience of what happens in South Africa. And Jermin, I mentioned that that in the text too, that, you know, our part, I took its inspiration in part from white Australia policy and from a lot of the first sort of, um, yeah, those racist policy acts that are very much a part of the annihilation of first nations, people, language and culture, you know, so I think that's a really interesting rate if, if, if, you know, there are teachers who want to read a little bit wide free, but also again, read something that's beautifully written. I'm going to add it to my list. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a rip off. So I think we've read lots, you know, there's lots of, there's a classic text that are taught in English that focus on, um, America, well, you know, and more, more, uh, recently on, um, Australia, we're, you know, in bringing in more first nations voices into our classrooms, but, um, there, there aren't any real classics focused on this particular point in history, uh, in, in South Africa. And so our understanding of it is really deepened by engaging with this text, but also there's the, we're going to come up against, um, and I was thinking it in my head as I was reading, because I can't turn my teacher brain off, ever when I'm reading a river, about how to engage with the language that Trevor Noah uses to describe himself or describe others and how to negotiate that in our classrooms as well, given that he uses terms that were appropriate for him to use at the time, but possibly could cause some, um, could cause some offense or discomfort. Um, and it's not just popping up one or two times in the Texas, maybe, you know, in Tequila, Mockingbird, we might avoid certain terms or we might skip over them. Did you have any ideas on how teachers might negotiate that? Yeah, look, I, and I'm right about listening to that as well. I think that, um, you know, descriptions of racial classification, which are so entrenched in, um, the structure of apartheid and the lawmaking, um, and the way he uses the words 'colored' and 'nits' race, and even 'black of white' to a certain extent. Um, I think, uh, the way I would approach the use of those terms in my class is to understand that discussion in class where those terms are employed needs to be within the context of the problematic nature of those terms, rather than just throwing them around. And I think that that again, you know, the world's coming on way in recent years, in terms of language and what's deemed to be kind of okay, not okay, sensitive and whatever, but I do think that making sure that students know that throwing these terms around outside of the classroom context is just not okay. Yeah, I'll ask this to critique them. And it's very, very, very, you gotta be very, very careful. But the fact that those terms are so much a part of the segregation and the policies that were put in place to keep groups separated and the labeling and the naming of those groups is so much a part of his critique of the culture as well. Yeah, he uses names and naming in a way that suggests the meaninglessness of names. He talks about his own name as Trevor, he talks about, you know, there's the GoHitler chapter, which has its own kind of problematic need for, I guess, a discussion that goes further than just what's in that chapter. Yes. And, you know, I think, when I was around and he died, I was really struggled with some of the content imagining how I would teach it in a class that is not multicultural with a diverse, because there are going to be kids who find things hilarious and then there are going to be kids who are, you know, perhaps have the potential to be really quite upset by some of the stories. So I think going in with a really open heart and making sure everyone feels culturally safe is really important. So a discussion of language needs to happen at the very beginning of this study for sure. No, I agree. And possibly, possibly this is the first text you lead with. Maybe it's the second text you're doing in your class. I don't know when you're, when you're, you've established some trust. Yeah, I'd say that's a really good point. I think you, you wouldn't want to just jump right off the back with this without students understanding punnets that they are culturally safe in your class. Yeah, for sure. It's really the point. I think sometimes we might feel some apprehension as teachers taking these sort of texts into the classroom and fear about students being offended or about them having different emotional responses to texts. But my Canada that has always been, since I remember teaching a thousand splendid sons years ago, a decade ago, and I had a parent call me up very upset because her daughter had come home and wasn't able to sleep. She was so affected by that text because it doesn't, you know, engages with some really, really deep themes about treatment of women in Islamic culture and all sorts of things that are really outside our scope of understanding. And the conversation I had with that parent was about how important it is that her child could, how important is that that they've come home and really been thinking and affected by a text. Because what that suggests is that their young person is meaningfully engaging with the text. So that a text should stay with you and should affect you and should impact the way that you think or you see the world, maybe call me an idealist. But I thought you're an idealist at all. I think we're better way to, you know, unpack and really interrogate the ideas that you think are affected by than in English classroom. But we are safe, you know, we're, as a teacher, we create that sense of safety. And so much of that is enough, you know, I think students coming to learn about their own privilege as well and that can be confronting, yeah, you know, yeah. So, what are the neutrals about it? I think that's a little bit of a approach to the text. But while as well, he mentioned, and I think this is relevant, he mentioned to Killamock and Bird before, and I think that even the discussion of language into Killamock and Bird, I would approach in a different way, just something like this. All the text you just mentioned. Just because, you know, I think the problem at the heart of a text such Killamock and Bird is that, you know, happily was wise. So, the use of the language and the way she characterised people in that text, you know, I think it is much more open to a cultural critique than something like Kervin-Nawas, extremely the one you just mentioned. Does that make sense? Yeah, because he has a lived experience. Well, it's a historical tale. And it's memoir, which Mockingbird, well, it's not memoir, even though we all know that it kind of was her experience. It's not structured as a memoir necessarily. That's a really good point. And what an interesting conversation to be having in our classroom about, you know, about, like, authorial intent. And sorry, funny reeds. Come up. And this is a little bit of a juicy, sad story. When I was at the day, I comforted at the end of last year, and I had to live at a pale, long text. It was quite funny. I was afterwards, I'd gone into one of the lectures, one of the bigger, kind of, professional development sessions. And I overheard someone had just been in my session, talking about how pretty correct I was. My delivering of the special learning. That's fantastic. I don't know, I mean, this is a little arse. Keeps up and hanging. Oh, God, can she just like that? Oh, yeah, yeah. So, but I don't want the teaching of these texts to get two bobs down. And, you know, I think political practice is actually just another word for being a good human. But, but, you know, the sensitive and you've loud there. And they need to be acknowledged. And you need to read the room. And that's, I guess, the most important thing. And it always come back to. And it's in that there's a little content night in the, um, E.C.A. text list synopsis. Yeah. That is particular. And why that just said, it's, you know, guess there are all these sort of colonatic element. And domestic violence is perhaps one of the, one of the biggest content night. But it is all in the context of his life growing up in post and present day. A part of itself, Africa, you know. Because you can't separate, I think you can't separate the domestic violence from the racism, from the structural limitations of the society from the, they're all kind of, they're all interplaying with each other. Absolutely. And I think that, you know, intersectionality of. That's the word. And, uh, and all of those things. And the lateral violence that occurs because of oppressive regimes, you know, these are all things that need to be put under as far as I, and I think even we think about the political landscape at the moment that's conversations around, um, First Nations, children and some of the things that are being said about. As nations families and, and violence, the question needs to be put back on to. The systems that were put in place that has led to. Like, yes, like, let's not talk about, you know, the effect of those systems. There's a, yeah, right. Yeah, I'm where to go. And, and it's the cause of that rage that we need to question you. I, I couldn't agree more. Um, and even that, um, it makes me think of that opening line of the very first. Well, do we call it the, how linguistically each chapter is numbered, but the preamble to each chapter is not, but a first preamble chapter, the genius of a part-eyed was convincing people who were the overwhelming majority to turn on each other. Yeah. A part hate is what it was. Yeah. You separate people into groups and make them hate one another so you can run them all. Um, kind of encapsulates what we're talking about right now. The fact that this, this policy created or manufactured distrust and anger. Between the group of the group that was arguably the, the more powerful numbers, allowed the white white to put the division division, um, that was orchestrated. I think that the heart of the, um, sense of tenant powerlessness because it divide and conquer as they say, you know, it varies, and then it's end up feeling powerless. I'm in that anger and frustration and trauma that can manifest in ways that cause, um, family violence or, you know, most, most often dented into generational family violence. It's going to happen. Um, like even the character able, and I'm not saying that I sympathise with him because he's, he's just such a looming kind of, um, figure. Yeah. It is ever present, especially in the middle section of the text. Um, right. Sympathise with him or what? It's just a fine. He's behaving. Yeah. Yeah. You can clear it. He has issues and his issues of addiction and violent behaviour and all of that. They've come from white. Seems don't just know that I just manifest kind of, I said, like, life night, you know, well, well, yes. And also possibly the learnings that he, um, that would have kind of been ingrained from his own families, cultures, a ways of being because his family were incredibly patriarchal. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's because that he, his character, we know that he is, I think bad is going to happen. He loops doesn't he through the entire text. And when given that little quite understated snippet of the start, so we know that she's been shot in the back of the head. Yes. Yes. Um, why he's still color. So we know that he's done that. And I think that's the thing that little mentioned. mentioned. very early on in the text and it's kind of so you know it's okay little it's odd almost it's very understated because we know that that means that that the presence of his violence and the way it's gonna crescendo is always there so the tension that we feel when he's around I think it's in part because we know that about him already I don't know when it's gonna happen but we know it's gonna happen and so yeah so clad our structure we had very clever and I think he's bit one of the things about it's memoirs that it's it's it's you look at it as a whole it seems quite really like the big the first part is very much about the early childhood and then we have sort of so years out of love sentence and then we have his sort of coming-age and then it's not linear at all it dips in and out of past, present and future in a really beautiful way that I think you know enables that sentence of tension as we're reading about Able we know his dumbness so we know what his type of love I think his name is really interesting as well oh be political is something yeah so his is European name Able is yeah straight from the Bible and means the good brother the good son but his son's name actually means to be very afraid so I think that again in his naming of beings trim and I was found a way to look at violent behaviors and the way people are labeled and how these things might omit to say it yeah my name so it's you know it's um yeah so interesting and also the meaninglessness of name very you know to label somebody as something and then expect them to be that thing and sense not only the naming by my brothers and and fathers of their children but also of a partite and um the notion that labels are actually a distinction I'm like yes true so are we are we who we are because of the label the label we've been given or are we who we are because of an innate sense of identity and Trevor maybe transcends and already label or youth and not yet of right which is what makes this such a fantastic text but uh if folks some frustration in students who go well what's the answer the answer is it ends and it depends on your reading I think which is what that's what makes a really great text um the health mark given that it's a memoir it's those moments where you talk about things like names and that's significant and the kid look at you like you're making things up you can actually say I'm not making this up they really weren't able to this this is really what their name was yeah um you were talking about structure just now which I think is I love talking about the structure of a text I think sometimes students get really bogged down and what happens when they're writing like this happens but not necessarily the order in which it happens because that is very purposeful I Trevor this I I'm imagining if I was writing a memoir I would be writing down all of the different things that I'd want to talk about and he hasn't some stage sat down and puzzle pieces together yeah or an intent and we can absolutely use that as evidence when we're discussing or making making a making a point in our writing as well as discussing the as you mentioned like the political social political into what word did you use I'll make a middle word um press the press re saying press press preface preface yeah the preface what preface is each chapter um weirdly my um when I talk I can hear my voice again is that coming through on your new heater coming through as well and passing me oh that's good or maybe it will not record that way so that's good um I don't just edit that put out this is a choice of a podcasting and post-production yeah um would you look in the afternoons yeah structure would you I I felt my that my teacher had wants to take them out and look at them all separately from the body of the text maybe I don't know and read them yeah and look at look at them in isolation I need to say that because one of their activities the kind of um ways into the text that I suggest is to take a source minor beach preface and then you know decide what you think that next chapter that follows is going to be about so you kind of take a first line give them to the kids saying okay this is the first line of the preface what is the following chapter going to be about yes and and why do you need that then get them to try match up just to preface and you know justify their decisions and then actually look at the text and and figure out what's what I think um one of the interesting things about structure for me especially in part one is the way it bookends um up one with the like starting with his mother yeah and then moving to um to Robert so he booklines that first part with a story about meeting his mother at the age of 24 so you've got the whole first part about his early childhood and yet he's decided he needs to bookends that first part his story with his mother and his father um you know why I keep that honest his father you know they're made for other person when enormous part in he outbringing in childhood he wants to do on a kid's part in choosing to father hanging um not to lose at one point is eat um think quite like Ben Chorzen on that kind of memory exact quote but and he even though his mother because of the way of world because of the the um the law around being a mixed child and the the side that if he's seen with his new airing father or if he calls his father father or dad and it's against the law and he could get whisked away so because he understands that that's the reason Robert hasn't been in his life you know um it's protective yeah I think it's really lovely that he uses to include Robert in that early card of his story even though the story is a bat um you know it builds towards the moment where he's reading out of it is another after 10 years at the age of 24 you know um yeah like that uh I I I I I clearly absolutely adores his mother um but I think there's some reverence for his ascent father as well um and that Carnot's hum he's knowledge at least uh Robert who had was um a bit of a rebel like he's young you know he um establishes the first racially integrated restaurants in South Africa you know he never subscribed to any of the rules of the part I didn't and he kind of said values with Trisha um carnets and I reach reach beyond the way that all the odds are stacked against rum trevinoes at you know existence because his existence is arguably a form of protest you know and Robert choosing to father him yeah it's a bit definitely a form of protest it feels like a political act in life means means burn feels like a you know um yeah big middle finger up to the system um well as as the title suggests he's but his birth was a crime you know how what a what a way to be defined in New Orleans he is to know that your existence is almost criminal um always he's criminal it's the road on oh yeah he's criminal I said almost criminal but it is like this weird because my brain goes to almost but in a part I'd it was and even just pairing those two words born and crime together I mean that's a pretty inhunger um pairing for a title um like unbelievable really that this could be true and I think as well that that whole idea of you know the notion that some of the stories that he tells are quite unbelievable and you think this did not happen this could not happen yes it did happen just like we see the rules of the system of apartheid as something incredible and you know how could this have happened it did happen so that that idea you know the extraordinary nature of the story and parts of the story being truth but also the extraordinary nature of something like this racist rage and you know was also true yes yes and what's interesting is as well there's a there was a passage that you wanted to talk about today which almost juxtaposes this conversation so beautifully in hell no are managers to acknowledge the broad structural like I can't think of the right word my brain I'm thinking about 14 words at the same time but you know he makes it he makes these broad strokes about the structure of his society and about how his his birth is criminal and all these things but yet he also presents a very detailed depiction of him advocating on the floor you know so and then he is there is absolutely my favourite moment I'm in by my first read I laugh my head off but then I listen to the audiobook and the way he tells this story in the audiobook because his his his performance in the audiobook is like standard comedy is so entertaining his intonation and his playfulness and it all comes through I think there's another genius way for teaching the text is kind of comparing one it's in the story with the similar stories that had depicted in stand up and out of jibba so many you sneaked to this and yeah I laughed pretty hard should we read a little bit of it what do you want to do well yeah tell me what is that so it's the passage where he he's home and he's blind his grandmother or great grandmother he has his grandmother his son friend come along now I'm stuck on that quirk I think grandmother and she's got a kite coil he is kite kite childless earth Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's grandmother's friend. Yes. So she's blind and she's sitting. So he he he's his home alone. Yeah. So he thinks he's home alone. His blind grandmother is there. He's dreading the idea of a five years old. Then dreading the idea of going out to the outhouse. Just so you know, outdoors, the students who might be listening to this, you might have heard of an outhouse. And so it's an outdoor toilet. It's actually shared with other families in the community. So it's not even just a toilet for their family. And the way it is, it's probably disgusting. If you've ever been on a cab and tennis were worse because of those cab toilets, even though they they have an odour, they have they do have chemicals in them to like reduce that odour. So I can only imagine. Yeah. And it's not right. Yeah, it's not like you have to do it all the time. It's true. It's true. It's just like a week of your life. Yeah. So the path to spring chapter three and it's called Trevor Ray. And it's when he back in his Soweto with his mum and he's living with his kidneys, grandmother's house. Great grandma blind. Great grandma. Koko is there. Do you want me to read a little bit of a line? Yeah. Well, yeah. Which for a club to hear just how I floss my radius. Okay. So I'm Hattie 42. I think that's where we'll go from. Sadly, no matter how fancy you made your house, there was one thing you could never aspire to improve your toilet. And you walk about Soweto being a place where there's aspiration. It's a hopeful place you can always build extensions on your one bedroom shaft. There was no indoor running water. Just one communal outdoor tap and one outdoor toilet shared by six or seven houses. Outdoor that was in a cargo of unhoused spotted among the joining houses. Inside there was a concrete slab with a hole in it and a plastic toilet seat on top. Had been a lead at some point but it had broken and disappeared long ago, we couldn't afford toilet paper. So on the wall next to the seat was a wire hangout with old newspaper on it for you to why. The newspaper was uncomfortable. The thing that I couldn't handle about sorry the newspaper was uncomfortable but at least I stayed informed while I handled my business. The thing that I couldn't handle about the outhouse was the flies. It was a long top to the bottom and they were always down there eating on the pile and I had an irrational all-consuming fear that they were going to fly out into my barn. Well, it's not more fun than saying where it's like bum. Yeah, like class for one after the one after the one after the one after the five years of my grand left me home for a few hours to go run errands. I was lying on the floor on a bedroom reading. I needed to go. It was pouring down rain. I was dreading going outside to use the toilet, getting drenched, running out all. Lord had dripping on me from the leaky ceiling, wet East paper. The flies attacked me from below. Then I had an idea, well I bothered with the outhouse at all. Why not put some newspaper on the floor and didn't my business. That seemed like a fantastic idea. That's what I did. We took the newspaper, laid it out on the kitchen's wall, pulled down my pants and squat it and go into the kitchen. I think this is the bit that gets me because I think this is actually even not so really funny story about doing a poo. It's about humanity. It's about, you know, how some exterrances are denied. People who don't have access to the science, the sorts of privileges that, you know, I'm sure you all students certainly write students that access to. When you shoot, as I sit down, you're not fully in the experience yet. You're not yet a shooting person. You're transitioning from a person about to shoot to a person who is shooting. It aren't without a smile phone or a newspaper right away. It takes a minute to get that first shit out of the way. You get in the zone and get comfortable. Once you reach that moment, that's when it gets really nice. It's a powerful experience shooting. There's something magical about it. Profound even, I think God make humans shit. In the same way we'll do because it brings us back down to earth and gives us humility. I don't care who you are. We all shit the same. Beyonce shit. I'm shit. It's a great thing. I've England shit. When we shit, we forget ayes and graces. We forget how famous or I reach here. All that goes away. You won't remember all your cells and when you're taking a shit. You have that moment when you realise this is me, this is who I am. You can pee without giving you the second boot, but not so with shitty. Have you ever looked in a baby's eyes when it's shitty? It's having a moment of pure self-ful women and outhouse ruins that for you. I won't go on because the story gets that harder the story gets funnier and funnier, especially when he realises his blind grandmother is in the ground, smell what he's done. And doesn't know because he's very silent. Does it know? It's funny. It is so funny. And then what he does with it, the whole thing is really funny. But I guess for me, and this is one of the reasons I love this text so much, is that it's kind of a mast as the hilarious story, but when you stuck and think about it, it's so much more than that. He's expressing something that you would. It's take take of a grand to the people have the comfort of privacy, of cleanliness, of hope, I've ever good in say, being dry and not cold. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In order to do something so fundamentally human, and I love the fact that he says, we all do it and talks about the hope and beyond, so etc. And yeah, I just. As I said, if you haven't listened to it on the audio book yet, definitely audio book just for that chapter. Yeah. Because it's interesting, right? You could see this particular story being told, and even maybe is that an activity for students in a non-comedy fashion. So about a five-year-old who was so afraid to go out to the outhouse that they had to share, because it is rainy and they are left alone. And so that they decide to to poop on the floor. That could be written in such a different style, and have. Maybe just like a similar impact on the audience in us understanding the reality of his poverty, poverty that he grew up with, and the individual impact of regimes like apartheid. And how they is a word of my brain's not bringing it to me. Dehumanize individuals. But he's still right there. Yeah, by denying, you know, the right to shit in comfort, because you're poor, because you're black. It's pretty rubbish. I do think that he just uses humor in a way that unveils horror, and it does it in a way that's quite disarming because you sink, you're reading one thing, and then you realize he's actually continuing the dots as well. Yes. That's what stand-up comedians do. That's what that's his bread and butter right. That the movement from light to shade, and how they are telling you something and you go, "Oh gosh, oh no." And that feeling that you have as an audience of not being sure when is the comedian going to bring it back to life. That's that, and that's the job that we're at. She's done that's to tension release. And I think that in the net, you know, she really wanted to demonstrate how comedy works and how that tension your life is often about making the audience feel better. Making the audience feel better and asking, "Ain't you know, yes." So, you know, maybe my delight at the humorous aspects in this story is past a little bit unsympathetic. Oh no. Yeah. But I think he does that thing that she talked about in a net so well, so beautifully, in its novel. And that's that tension really. Like, I'm going to give you this really uncultable moment. And I'm also going to make you have to laugh about it. Yes. With me. You know, I was watching, I think it's one of the ones that you popped in the notes. YouTube of Trevor Noah's comedy. No, I don't know if I can find it. The one where he's, the one where he's about 10 minutes and he's talking about his mum being shot in the head. And he's in the hospital. They want to take the money. And it's about the kind of how much, you know, he'd spend 25,000 round on his mother, but no more. And it occurred to me as I was watching it because it is quite funny, but I couldn't quite laugh as much as it, as it having read the book. I think because we understand the context that he doesn't provide in that stand-up, which his mother was shot by Isaac's father. Absolutely. And I think there's one particular passage where in the, in the memoir, he writes about this, like, you writes about the feeling, like, eating soluble and crying and his emotions coming out in such a raw, communal way. And it's a very movie. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking you got that passage in, in a, um, stand-up performance of that story. And it just comes through as something quite grotesque, hilarious. It just, it doesn't have the, the joy, all the content joy, joy, the remote. It doesn't have the pain and the anguish that's evident in the memoir. He says, I actually just opened the book and it was one of those beautiful moments. Who ever had that? You're looking at the book and it's the bit. Yeah. I remember the exact traffic light I was at, which he does in the comedy sketch. For a moment, there was a complete vacuum of sound. And then I cried tears like I had never cried before. I collapsed in heaving, sobs and bones. I cried as if every other thing I'd cried for in my life had been a waste of crying. It's so, um, he, but the he lights and shades it in the comedy. by having someone try to wash his window. He's like, "No, no, no, no, what was that?" But that, it's so different in the stand-up performance, which I think is another one of the activities I suggest as a way into the text, just to look at his stand-up all and some of that story. And compare it to you. Yeah. You should be in the chat, the head in the book at that point, but he didn't let the stand-up, he brings the being shot in the head later. I think. Yeah. It's so interesting, right? I mean, listen, it just shows purpose audience context and all those things we are. Up on, as English teachers, you can take the same story and package it in slightly different ways and move things around, and it will have a very different intent. So, the challenge of when he writes and he shifts into a child's voice, those stories will be very different if it was just writing from his adult perspective, respectively. He really puts himself into character when he writes about some of the moments in his early childhood and his middle years that he can see young trebom and he feel young trebom. It's not just a millennial telling a story. It's someone who is there as a child and I think changing that to just having your adult voice read came to that story again, quite different. And I wonder, we know that Abel, as we talked about, is a kind of malevolent figure throughout the text. I say at some point that he blames his mum for not leaving. He did as a child, but as an adult he understood better. Well, he realised that he was staying with him, so he couldn't kill all of them. And I think that that's, he realised that he's, she stayed for their protection. But yes, that sense of blame that comes from, and I think that's, you know, his young adult on that stage and he's just so frustrated by her willingness to stay. And then when she gets pregnant with his younger brother, his youngest brother, he's able, that's when he's, you know, he's just horrified by her. But yeah, he comes back to that. And I think again, that shifting between adolescent voice perspective to adult voice, something you need to think about with structure and form and, you know, how chronology is not, it's not all been out. No. And we can almost forgive him for that. He's very honest in his feelings. I think you really, I think there's another thing about stand-up comedians that we know is that they do kind of bear their heart on the stage. A little bit and they can struggle with their mental health for that reason because it's quite a confronting profession. And it feels like I'm not carrying normal too as an adult. I mentioned that in the text, but in our scene interviews with Henry, he says he's never been violent. He says he's never carried forward that. And yes, sometimes it's what an expectation of someone who suffered from her peace might have to end the towards violence in adult duty if there is, you know, work through it. He talks about how that hasn't happened. And you know, perhaps writing the wire is a way of empty work through that trauma. But there's, I have to say, there's one part and probably I'm just looking at the time and go, there's one thing I didn't want to mention that I don't find really extraordinary about his, it's in the third section where he's really come of age and he's in Alex and he's willing and dealing with, with his mate. And he does that, he where he does a deal with a young one's mother who owes him money. He basically sells off a date with a young one risks two cases of beer and just just as it is working in angle. And then there's a lack of irony in that moment and a lack of self awareness to me when I was reading it at us, I don't, it's just like, you know, this is, it's not okay. There's no, not kind of critiquing your view of women in this moment. Sort of a lack of self reflection, I don't know, to sound the quite the guy would bring the beer he'd get to hang out with the girl we brought off the month's debt to show her gratitude and would make our money selling the beer. Yeah, this kind of really kind of his young adult would get in quite a creative life in terms of how he deals with men and girls. Mind you, the affairs of the heart, tap does a pretty funny tune. Well, I think, you know, if he talks about not holding trauma, his life, his upbringing will have impacted him in some way and likely he has, likely he has internalized misogyny. Yeah, it's just, if he'll kind of very familiar role models in his life and even though he adores at doors, probably the wrong word, but he loved and honored his other robot in the text that the men in his life. Particularly strong. Right. He's got his grandfather, temperance, you know, had a pre-troubled. He's got a lot of heart in terms of alcohol and he was abusive and, you know, as a player, and then of course able to do the challenges of having those strong, my role models in the life of the young man and obviously manifesting ways that look like willing and dealing, selling access to a girl. But what a great thing to have conversation about in the classroom, I suppose, at least, you know, in a role, more resilient, you know, have a while people kind of through the world. He's so focused on the spoils of the American drain and what of that is nothing that a person, women claim to that idea. It does. It does. Oh, there's so much more we can talk about. So, you know, honestly, like my brain, just the bit my brain just went to quickly is when he reflects on how important it was for him to get to that point in Alex, he needed the CD burner and the computer. And this where he critiqued anyone who says, you know, you just need to work hard. Yeah, well, he says, you also need need to manifest and he says, you need to give him a fishing rod as well. Yeah, you can't just keep, yeah, it's not just the skills or the determination you actually need resources, even the meanings of riddance. Yeah, the white key, the friend he makes that's Andrew and Daniel and Andrew actually works in as a middleman selling CDs before he kind of establishes his own business. But yet we're there and I'm just like, I'm not saying that in the guide as well. So without Daniel, without that means to production, without that ability to make him a and establish you so in a like essentially a small business as a teenager. And set himself up to be able to leave home. You know, there's a chance that he wouldn't have survived living with a goal. Oh, yeah, that idea that if you have the means with which to make something and to, you know, for start a business and you're going to drag yourself out of out of poverty, but oftentimes it takes someone in a position, power, privilege to kind of endow you with that given the background. Yes. So just so so good. Thank you so much for coming to talk to me about talk with me, not talk to me talk with me. I very much enjoy this conversation. I'm sure there'll be lots of people very excited that there's not just a podcast resource, but also some fantastic notes, teachers, if you're listening. I will, as I said, pop the link into the show notes so you can, or you can just navigate to the V8 website. It's quite easy. It's very good to download them because they are fabulous. Now, any students is lead to I'll be producing that revision exam results for this text too. So, well, great. Yes. So students can, I think students can also go, you can go to the V8 Victorian Association. They're not teaching. They've been going to come out. So, this will come out into. Yeah, because they're not doing the revision day anymore. They create all the online videos here. It's kind of sad. I like that day. Remember going with the student. Yeah, presenting that day. You get to meet your kids. Yeah, probably more accessible though to do it online for everyone. Victoria, we're a lot of students and it's good to have the results because they can get back into it as well. No, I agree. I've already been there working towards exam. I agree. I agree. Thank you so much. The pleasure. I appreciate your time. I hope you enjoyed the episode today. If you did get something out of today, I'd love for you to support the show by donating a virtual coffee using the link in the show notes or on my Instagram bio at TeachersTalkTech. I really love hosting this podcast and I want to continue doing it, but I do need your support. If you don't already follow me at TeachersTalkTechs, you definitely do as I post updates about the podcast there, as well as other opportunities to learn more about the text. and see you in English. See you next time. Bye.