TCD Podcast Chief Kristen Ziman (Retired) Aurora, IL Police, Ep 87

Welcome to the Cop Doc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The Cop Doc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now, please join Dr. Steve Moriali and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the Cop Doc Podcast. Hello, everybody. This is Steve Moriali coming to you from Boston. We're doing an Northeast Southeast discussion today. I have Kristen Zeman, the former chief in Aurora, Illinois. Good morning to you, Kristen. Good morning to you. We have been having some technical difficulties in your patience is very welcome. I'm sorry, but I want to talk about your book. I'm so glad to finally have you. You wrote a book reimagining blue thoughts on life leadership and a new way forward in policing. I've begun to read it and I have to say I'm very, very impressed with the way you write how down to earth it is and how many tidbits are in here about leadership and there's so many things. So let's start from your entry into policing. I know you started as a police cadet and how you got to police chief and tell us a little bit about Aurora, Illinois. Absolutely. In the state of Illinois, second only to Chicago, home of Wayne's world for those pop culture fanatics. I really know. It's all we got going for. Yeah, all we got going for is something to bring up at your next cocktail party. So I'm born and raised in Aurora, Illinois and I wanted to be a cop or as far back as I can remember. My father was a police officer and it was early as 10 years old. I knew that that's what I wanted to do. I had to litify that future for myself in junior high. And so I actually graduated from high school in 1991 in June and I started as a police cadet which is the equivalent of an intern in July of 1991. So at the tender age of 17 years old, I started in my police department. I worked there for 30 years and in the three years that I was an intern, you've soaked up policing and of course solidified the idea that that's what I wanted to do. And interestingly enough, when I came on my police department, there were no females in rank at all. And we're a 300 person police department. So that's considered a mid-sized agency and the fact that there were women on the job, but there were no women in supervisor position. And I say that because people ask me, did you ever think that you would be the chief and the honest to God answer is no way because I never saw myself in those roles. I never, there wasn't a woman who was holding any kind of rank. So it just never occurred to me. It's been several females got promoted prior to my promotion to sergeant and it was actually the great mentors that I had in my career and they were males. Interestingly enough, that said, hey, you should take the sergeant's test and the same thing happens when I decided to go for it and take the lieutenant's test. And I became the first female lieutenant in the history of my department when I become the first female commander and the first female chief in 26 and I just retired last September with 27 years sworn, but 30 full years with my police department. So that is it in a nutshell. Well, I'm guessing that people who would see you now looking at you, you would see that you're in Naples, Florida, which is a great place to land, but that you are a lot less stressed than you were when you were on the police department. Is that a fair assessment? Oh my gosh, that is an understatement. I'll tell you, you know, I love policing and I'm glad that you said that. I mean, I love everything about it, but there are certain parts of course that distressors the bureaucracy and, you know, discipline and contracts and fighting with unions and, you know, high stress incidents. But I will tell you in the six years that I was chief or five and a half, the first three years went womeningly. And then, you know, 2019, we had a mass shooting, then a pandemic and then civil unrest and it was literally, I felt like I was a punching bag for about three years in a row. So, yeah, to say that my stress level has gone down moving to sunny Naples, Florida is quite an understatement. So we had the opportunity to talk before and I apologize to the listeners if the audio isn't as normal. That's a technical difficulty on my side, but I'm so glad to have you. We have Kristen Zeman and she's the former chief from Aurora, Illinois. You told me about the book and that when I was asking and, by the way, congratulations, you have a second run. You have, you have basically depleted the stock and they're coming at you for more. So that's success. Congratulations for that. Thank you so much. I'm completely shocked, but also very excited about it. Yeah, but there's been a lot of, well, there's a couple of things that goes through my mind. The first thing is to talk about the book and you told me that you had started the book a while back and then you just completely re-wrote it. You wrote it on the inside and you felt almost some relief to be able to write it outside. Talk about that a little bit, Kristen. People ask a lot, well, you know, have you always written? Is that something that you just decided you on a whim? No. The answer is I have always loved writing. I've always been in a passion of mine. I wrote for the local newspapers starting as a police sergeant and had an editorial column that they were gracious enough to give me. That morphed into my own blog, law enforcement blog and it became quickly one of the best law enforcement or top 10 law enforcement blogs per IACP. So I say that just to illustrate that writing has always been my therapy. And so a book wasn't too far off. I thought one day I'm going to put these thoughts from my blog and you know, morph them into a book. And I sat down to do that in about, I think it was 2018, the end of 2018. And sat down just to write a leadership book, but not in the sense of, I know what I'm talking about as leadership, talking about my failures, the things that I have learned along the way and basically kind of what not to do in leadership and what I'm watching others badly, what not to do. And I actually interestingly enough, which I didn't mention before, is that after the mass shooting happened in my city, I actually stopped writing altogether. It was a weird mental block that I simply stared at the cursor. I just couldn't do it. And then when I started writing again and then decided to retire, it was actually last year, September of 2021 that I looked at the book and the form it was in and I rewrote the whole damn thing. And I did it because I am now able to speak freely and not that I couldn't before, but as a sitting chief, I am of course, works for a mayor, a city, a constituents, and of course my police department. And so I had to weigh my thoughts and measure my words. And after I retired, I felt this freedom that I could say what I wanted today. And so I decided to tackle also with the help of my publishing company that said, hey, you should talk about gun control. You should talk about George Floyd. You should talk about all the hot, button issues, deep-funding the police. And I thought, oh man, here we go. I pulled it like I saw it and I understood in that moment that I made up that some people on both sides because I wasn't blindly loyal to police officers. I call out bad actions of police officers. Kind of that the same vein. I also decided to become very vulnerable in this book. And I realized that I can't tell the story of my life in the police department without talking about my personal life and my tumultuous childhood. And I mentioned my father was a police officer and he was my hero and he's the reason that I became a police officer. But the dark side of that is he was a raging alcoholic. And so I had to navigate those waters and I sat down and for the first time in my life I wrote down all of my experiences in life. I mean so much so that my adult kid read it and went, mom, you never even mentioned this before. And I said, yeah, I know. So the book is a, it's a culmination of my life. It's a memoir. It's a leadership book. It's a book about hot topics. It's a book about adversity. It sort of is this weird thing that I didn't write to one group. I just poured my heart out and hoped that people would get something from it. But Kristen, as I'm watching you, I'm reading the pieces that you have read, the admission that your dad was an alcoholic. My grandfather was an alcoholic and certainly and that's the first time I've admitted that. But I loved him dearly. You know, he had weakness by I loved him dearly, still ways heavy in my heart. Clearly in our lives, we are molded by these experiences and I understand that. But I also think that what you bring is a perspective and the perspective is twofold. First of all, being a woman in having high rank. And I can't believe, look, let's move listen to the whole series, realize that I grew up when women were not allowed to be police officers. Ever? I was in the military police academy in essence and we accepted the first five women in 1975. Before that, they couldn't carry a gun, a side arm and they couldn't be an MP. And when I came out, it was the beginning of some money being thrown at it. We're now talking about 30 by 30. But this is back in 78 where I remember in my hometown, a police department, I wanted to be a part of. They put women, they hired 20, whoever was the chief knew how to get some money from the fits and they hired 20 women at the same time. And the first thing that that precipitated was the first protest I ever saw. And that was police officers, males and their wives standing in front of city hall and at the police station saying, no woman in my cruiser. I mean, in my husband's cruiser. I know, I know. So I had that experience. I have three daughters. So I under I know. So when I tell that story in classes, they don't get it that we have come a long way since the 70s. But my question to you is, I'm sorry to weave in my story and my experiences. But my question is you had to have had a tough time at first being one of the first women and overcoming and proving yourself and talk about that experience. Because clearly you overcame whatever the adversity was. Absolutely. And there are a lot of stories out there that are much worse than mine that you'll female police officers that have had to do to get their rightful position either on the job or in supervisor positions. But what I also want to point out, that wasn't that long ago, doc. I mean, this is, you know, you're talking 1975 and it's this recent past. There's not that long ago. And if you really wrap your head around that, yeah, it's incredible to me. So I guess we can look at what a credit in how far we've come. And you mentioned the 30 by 30 initiatives. which is very close to my heart. And so of course we've made some great progress. But as I said when I first came on, there was also some sort of this piece about me is that when I came on the police department, my utopia was just becoming a police officer. That's it. That's a goal to become a police officer. And because I didn't think there was a possibility of me moving up, it was almost like, if you don't set any expectations, then you'll never get let down, right? But what you just said is we had one of our first female officers in the department, her name is Karen Krab, and she was my field training officer. She came on at the year I was born in 1973, I'm not the station. - That's the first season before that. - Oh yeah, one of the first two females, and I was so excited to have her as a field training officer. And she was far less excited to have me in her car than I was. I mean, she was my idol. As a little girl, I watched her drive around the city and would say to my dad, who's that lady? And he would tell me. But here's the rub. She didn't treat me very well because later, we had four weeks, I had four weeks in the car with her. And I finally, at the end of the fourth week, my marks were good, I was getting great ratings, and I looked at her and I said, "Why do you not speak to me? "Do I do something to you?" And I think I kind of took her back and she paused, she made me pull over and I parked and she said, "I want to tell you a story." And she told me, you made me think of it when you're in telling the story about the protesting and the picketing and she said, "She came on the police department and she went to the academy "and she sat at the wrong table, "a lunch table all by herself and the males ridiculed her." And she got back to the station after graduating from the academy and they put sanitary napkins in her mailbox and stuck them to her patrol car. And I'm sitting there and I'm listening to all of this. And she said to me, "I think I haven't been kind to you "because when you walked in the department in 1991, "that didn't happen to you." And she said, "I've been message you." Yes, and I was sitting there thinking, "My gosh, if you could only see you the way I see you "and that you were with the one of the first "and you had to hack through all of the brush "and to pay that pass." But to answer your question for me, they weren't as overt as what happened to my field training officer. They were more subtle things. I remember one day I looked up at the SWAT team, they had put up an announcement that they were taking applications for SWAT. And at that time, I was doing some power lifting and I was, I mean, I was really in shape. I looked at the flyer and I was like, "Oh, no kidding." One sergeant just saw me looking at it instead to start his laughing. And I was like, "What's so funny?" And he's like, "You can't try out for SWAT." It's a man's club, okay. And I had little things like that. But then basically what happened is, I think that as a woman, we have to prove and reprove. And the things that happened to me again were more subtle, but it was Lieutenant looking at my field training officer and saying, "Yeah, she's doing great in the program, "but you've gotten there into a fight yet." And I'm sitting right there and I'm like, "Yeah, hello, I'm right here." And my male field training officer said, "With all due respect," or, "She is really good "at talking people into handcuffs." And that's time on what we're looking for, right? And I could have just kissed that man, right? Right on the mouth, bad day. Not necessarily the wrestling wave, but I was just so happy that he's stuck up for me. But so it was like the whole thing like that. And then of course, as I started to move up, once I became a sergeant, then it became, "Oh, wait, she's a threat." And so then it became, which I call my mentors and my tormentors. And I have a lot of tormentors. But I think the biggest thing that I've had to overcome in my career is the stereotype. I'm five foot for 122 pounds. And I've had people say to me, as a patrol officer, "Oh, did they let you drive a squad car?" And then I had people as I moved up in rank, say even women say, "Do those officers, male officers listen to you? Did they follow you?" So there's this stereotype that goes with being someone a small stature and being a female. So, you know, again, they haven't been major obstacles, but just one, just kind of little roadblock that I've had been happy to. - Well, if we could talk forever, I think, in this simpatico here, one of the things that I find in your book, and you just said tormentors, you know, and I think in most cases, when you move up and you're doing some leading, and you actually said something about being a leader, you're going to disappoint people that you learned at your Harvard class. But you call people who sort of take shots at you as tormentors, and I call them detractors, but you will never gonna please everyone. And very often what has to happen, you have to find your core to say, "Well, there's two or three or five or 10 people "who are kind of nipping at me, "but I'm here for the other people who are here, "port the 295 others that are not tormenting me, "and the citizens that I am paid to protect "and help the Dupter Department through." But Kristen, one of the things I wanna ask is this. I think having a woman in a leadership position can change the dynamic of an agency. Talk about being more willing to solve a problem, to get to the root of a problem, rather than to arrest the problem. And I think we see an awful lot of that. I see so many more police officers now getting their social worker degrees to be able to do things. But let's talk about you. The experiences you had as you moved through the organization, watching maybe some autocratic approach or meetings that maybe were top down, and if you have those experiences, okay. So I'm sure in the back of your mind, you're saying, "This is what I don't want to do "if I ever get a chance." So I wanna know what approach you took when you were moving into the ranks, your commandee, you've got some other command staff under you, you're pushing them forward, you're trying to collaborate to get things done. What was your style? What, how were your meetings different? - You said so much there to unpack and all the lessons that I've learned in leadership and sadly much about what not to do. And I can remember throughout my career, we had a great department, a progressive department, one that was very training focused. But basically the culture of the organization was those who got noted were the ones who were autocratic. In other words, they really credited those who put their thumb on people, those who were very disciplinary. Because that's how the personalities of the people in those positions running the department were at the time, very egocentric. And so that behavior got rewarded. And I remember, and that's kind of part of my writing process over the years and I kept a journal talking about if I ever get into a position, I will never do X, Y, and Z. And so the nice part about moving up in an organization is you get a little more influence. And I tell people about who are very frustrated that say, what am I supposed to do? I'm a sergeant, I'm a lieutenant. I don't have any due, I can't display servant leadership because those above me don't. And my answer is yes, you absolutely can. Regardless of whether you are on the street and you don't have any formal rank or authority, you most certainly have leadership and you can display it there. But to get to your question, I'll actually give you an example. And kind of an antidote of what happened is there was an individual, as I mentioned, is the higher you move up and rank the less positions there are. So the competition becomes really palpable. And so there were a group of 10 of us, 10 lieutenants that were vying for a commander position. And only one can get the job. And we were all up for it. And I had my group of tormentors that were trying to do whatever they could to sabotage me. And by literally writing me up for every little thing. And if you watch someone, if you're not walking that tightrope, there's going to be a time where you make a mistake. And so it was just constant. And that was when I think I had the highest stress in my life where they were watching and just seeing where she going to mess up. And I remember my chief calling me into the office. And he grabbed my hand and shook it. And he said, congratulations, commander. And I had this moment of, are you kidding me right now? And he gave me the position. And he was a very progressive minded chief. And prior to him, people had promoted in their own likeness. They promoted their friends. And so for him, he was interested in diversity of thoughts. And so when he told me that, that meant that there were my competition who were upset, right? But now it's my job. But now I have to supervise them. So now as a commander, I have these lieutenants. They didn't want me to get the job, especially those who were outwardly sabotaging me. And I remember having a couple conversations with them. And my first instinct-- and I don't know if this is a female thing-- but I was apologetic. I was like, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I got this. Even though I knew that I deserved it. I mean, my resume-- so proud of my resume. And I knew intellectually, conceptually, that I had earned this position. So there was never-- I never had that kind of imposter syndrome where I truly believe I'm confident in my ability. But my first instinct was, oh, I'm so sorry, you didn't get it. And then I decided, no, no, no, no. I had this moment in time where I changed that little voice inside my head instead of why me in being apologetic. I went, wait, a hot minute, why not me? And then I reminded myself of how I had earned it. And so that caused me to have some conversations with people that were difficult. And by that, I mean, I called them in. And here's what I said. I said, especially to one of them, who is a major saboteur in my life, I said, I know that you think you should be sitting in this chair that I'm sitting in right now. You think you deserve it more than I do. You were on a trajectory of Catholics and SWAT team. And I wasn't. I was in community policing and investigations. So you believe that I am less than. But my value comes in a different path. And I said, so here's the thing. I need you. I need you on my team because I don't know the things that you know. You are better than me in all of that other stuff. So how about we work together with both of our strengths? And if you come on my bus and you sit in the front row and let's move forward together. But then I said, but here's the thing. If you don't get on the bus, I'm going to run you over. And then I'm going to back up and then I'm going to run you over again. And I think that caught his attention. And let me tell you, after that, he became one of my most valued members on my team. So that's one aspect in dealing with those who maybe you're competing with and/or your savage words. I recognized that all the strengths he had that I didn't. But he needed to recognize the strength that I had that he didn't. And then furthermore, I started to notice. that ego plays a big part in our organization. So the way that I think I led differently, and I don't know if this is email trade, and like why are we fighting? Why are we all in our silos? So I'll come to the table because it's easy to, I guess maybe not work together when you're over there and we're over here, but if we come together, then we say, here's a problem that we can actually solve because you have some skills, I have some skills, you have some skills. So let's collectively think about that. And so for me, I think the key here is this, and then I'll land this plane. I know that I am not the smartest person in my organization, and I think that that's where we get into mistakes. There's some people think their collar brass is equated to their IQ, in that the higher you move up in an organization, their position regardless of what it is, if you become the CEO, that you're suddenly the smartest. I never thought that. I had the four stars on my collar, and still was like, guys, I have no idea what I'm doing here. What do you guys think? And I think that was something, at least I don't think, because I was told later, especially after I retired, people said, you gave us permission. And you basically said, I don't know the answer. So what do you guys think? And if you gave permission for people to use their skill, competency, and ability, and you didn't pretend like you knew it all, and for that, we were able to solve some pretty complex problems in our police department. And I think that's just the key to it. And I think there's a lot of men that do that too. So maybe it's not just the trade. I think there's a lot of great men that do that. - Well, I think it's an approach, and I love hearing what you're saying, because it seems to me, here's what my sense is that my experience has been. We hire supposedly the best. And then we tell them to sit down and shut up, right? And we don't ask them what they think. There are some young people out there that are much, much better at social media than we could ever be. Why aren't we asking them questions and engaging them and getting involved and using their strengths? So I think you're right. You know, one of the first things I think you say is, I don't know it all. Even when I walk into a classroom, Dr. Morelli, so I don't know at all. I'm constantly learning. I'm learning from you today. There are so many things that you would say. I think what people don't realize, who are outside of the business, is that 95% of the officers who are sworn on a particular day will retire as an officer. Very few people take the plunge, raise the hand and say, I wanna be in charge of other people. When I talk to Sarge and so we tend to say, how smart are you guys or gals that you had it that tiger by the tail as a senior officer, right? You are responsible for you. You know how to get through things. You know how to do your job, and you don't have the added baggage of having to deal with eight or 10 other people who are now your responsibility. - Oh, absolutely. And there's such honor. And like we do, we set such value. It's this template that we overlay, but you have to move up in an organization. And that is complete malarkey because like you said, the best percentage of people retire at that rank. And I think there is such honor in doing a remarkable job. And that honestly was my favorite rank of all, right? And at the end of the day, you take your last report, go 1042. (laughing) - I know that. - I know that. - Go ahead. - Okay. - Yeah. - You know, I know that. And actually the other thing that you were saying and one of the things that I say and off a lot in training, and that is, it's exactly that problem. Listen, I'm glad we're at this training. You're injecting new ideas with us, but I'm here to tell you that I'm going back to a person who will say, I don't care what you learn, do it my way, do it the old way. And what I'll say to them is, look, as a sergeant or even a lieutenant, you can't control the entire department, but you can control the sphere of control that doesn't trust it to you. Whether it is detective unit, a pretzel sector, whatever it might be, or a unit, or it could be the fleet, you're responsible for a number of people, do that well. Motivate them. Take some time to develop them. Kristen, how important in your mind is it or was it that a leader should be developing others? - This comes down to the very essence of servant leadership, which I understood as a sergeant's rank before knowing what that term meant. And the way that it was described to me, and I wish I could remember who said it to me, but it was your job. And this is right as I was getting promoted to sergeant. Your job is not to exert that authority because you now have right-winder arms and chubrons on your collar. Your job is now in a supervisory position is to get work done through others, which means your primary function is to remove barriers for your people. And I decided in that moment it had so many supervisors and bargents that I had worked with, the kind of sergeants that said this, hey, all right guys, go have a great day out there and listen, don't call me for eight hours. Nobody bother me. And I thought-- - They'd be talking you out of a rest, right? 'Cause I don't want the hassle, right? - Totally. And I remember having questions and going, okay, whatever I do, I absolutely cannot call my sergeant. And that was one of the things I marked out as if I ever get into a position of leadership. I will try to make myself available for my people. And so I decided that I was going to be the sergeant that I wanted to have. And that was really how I actually, I took every position to heart with, okay, well, kind of supervisors, do I want? What were the best ones? And I took examples from the best of the best. And so, yes, your point is I would sit down and this is what the best supervisors do. Tell me where you want to be. Begin with the end in mind. Whoever is in your charge, decide, where do you want to go in this apartment? Do you want to be a patrol officer? Because again, there is honor in that. So let me help you master that position. Do you want to move over to the gang unit to vice narcotics, evidence, juvenile? What is the thing you want to do? What are your aspirations? Let me help you figure out how to get closer to your goal. Do you want to promote? Are you on that trajectory? So let's sit down, look at some training classes. And also, you have to earn that as well. You have to still function and perform at this level. So you have to prove to me that you meet these expectations in your current role. And then let's look at where you want to go and great leaders help people get to where they want to be. - No question. And I can't tell you where the quote came from, but it's one of the pieces of the draft book that I'm putting together. And it says, when you lead, it's all on you, but it's not about you. - Reach week, yep, absolutely. - Right, what did you say, reach week? I love it. - Reach week, yeah. - Okay, okay. - Send that out, send that out. - I was just gonna say, I had this on my desk. It says these words, it may not be your fault, but you are response. It always falls to your shoulders. - Well, what I was saying is, I don't really consider myself a teacher in the true sense that I really see myself, especially with colleagues in public sector, least officers and people who were sergeants, lieutenants, captains, majors, and such, and even chiefs, I try to facilitate. And you lead through questions, you know, what do you think about this? What do you do about that? What are the things that you can do? What troubles me about policing some time is it is very difficult job. There's no question about it. You know, many of us who have done it yourself included, have been under stress, have had maybe in some cases while I know that PTSD has been reserved for those in war. There's times when police officers have the equivalent of war and what they see. I mean, I just read today that there were two officers who showed up at a beheading and what a horrible thing to see. And of course, police are called on to do things and to go to things that most people will never see. And once you see those things, you can never unsee it. And I know you experienced it. I know you understand that very, very well. But it troubles me too that some police officers put policing at 100% of their life. Nothing else, no outside interest. It's policing, policing, and policing. And I remember that Colin Powell said that you have to avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, that your ego goes with it. And I know that you've experienced that, putting a square badge on and being a security guard after your retire. What are your thoughts on that? You have so much to unpack there. In the first of which, it's the dirty little secret in our profession that we kill ourselves at a higher rate by our own hands than those who actually harm. And the numbers, they speak for themselves. And so those numbers tell us that we have a real crisis of mental health in our profession. And a lot of which is what you describe. It begins in-- I'm going to try to oversimplify this just for the sake of time. But it's that ill-mereal that you just described what I call the thousand tiny cut. You don't have to go to a beheading or a mass shooting like in my jurisdiction. But it's rolling up on a scene where there's an accident and the family's killed. You just insert all the trauma here. You know, you could go on and on about the horrific things that first responder be. And they're human beings. We see more, you know, maybe in a shift or a month and people doing a lifetime. And that film reel continues to grind on even when work has stopped. But notoriously, we have been absolutely terrible at dealing with this and building resilience. And I'll go back to the word ego again because that is the derivative of what we're grappling. And I'll give you a great example. In my department, as I mentioned, it was very autocratic leadership. And I remember saying one day to a commander where an officer had called me and said, and this is when I was in a supervisor position and said, I'm having a real hard time with a scene that I was just on the other day. And I mentioned it to the commander and to my cheat and said, listen, I think we need to be better about checking in with these guys because they're-- I didn't fund the officer. I just said, but I think there's a lot of people who are hurting. And the commander's response to me was, oh, so I guess we have to check in on everybody in F. Are you OK? What a bunch of mamby panties. And I remember thinking, what the hell does that even mean? I had to look up that term, by the way. And it's not very kind. But I lost track of how many times I've heard the term, stuck it up and take it. You shouldn't be here if you can't handle it. And don't take this job. And that's the approach that we take. I had an officer put a gun to his head. And he didn't thank God, pull the trigger, because he made a phone call. And after making that phone call, he went into inpatient therapy. And as a result, he got his firearms card taken away because he was in a quote mental institution, even though he did the right thing and got help. And he was off the job for a year and a half on Addie. and then while I was fighting with my date for him to get his job back. So I say all of that to say what message does that send when someone in rank calls you a "mandy" pantheon because you asked for help and when someone who literally does ask for help before pulling the trigger goes in to get assistance into a mental health facility and now can't carry a gun and which means they can't be a police officer. What message are we sending people? And so that's part of the problem and that's why our suicide rate is so high and dear I say when we can't cope on the job what happens to us? We turn to alcohol. How many divorces in our profession? And so then how do we treat people on the street? So all of this to say it all manifests somehow in the way that we do our job and what you said at the beginning was we don't do a good job of the balance of wellness. Meaning we hang out with other cops because we have the same days off, right? We've got two days and one days off and you know so now our whole world becomes immersed in just law enforcement and that's what happens to me. So you have to be deliberate in a few things. Number one, deliberate in getting help when you need it and that means that the strongest people I know are the ones who are courageous enough to say, okay man this one is a little bigger than me and I'm really struggling with it and I need some help and also take yourself out of your position for a minute and spend time with people who are not in law enforcement. And that's a good place to start with this conversation. I agree with that. I'm sure you've had the experience but so many of colleagues and very good friends have committed suicide and it's not an easy thing to go through and I understand that. And what I like is the discussion that's going on and catching on across the country is a required check up from the neck up where it is required that all of us once a year go and sit and purge and talk to somebody has to be the right person. It has to be somebody who understands police and police families and police jobs but once you do that it's quite cathartic to say this is causing me some problems you know that because all of us put these things in a box we're all very good at that I think you put it in a box and you never know what's going to leak out and that's the problem. Tomorrow is 9/11. I'm going to have problems tomorrow. I brought a team to 9/11 in New York and I've said this before and I'm not looking for help. I'm not at this point but no one ever asked how I feel about that. What I saw, what I experienced. No one, no one, no one to this day. No one and that's just one little snippet of my career or your career and those kinds of things. So I think it's something that progressive police chiefs, innovative police chiefs are looking at and doing so I can see some movement. I think that's good. Let's go back to the book for a moment and by the way I haven't said it in a little bit who I'm talking to. I'm talking to Kristen Zeman. She's sitting in Naples, Florida, beautiful Naples, Florida. She wrote a book in reimagining blue thoughts on life leadership and a new way forward in policing. And again I can't speak more highly about this book. There are a few things that I wrote down. You can pick one. You wrote a piece on power. You wrote a piece on no regrets. You wrote a piece on two mentors and snipers and you've sort of alluded to that and not the sniper side. Where do we go from here is the way I want to finish. But also power of symbols and leaders disappoint. I'd like to focus on that for a moment. Talk about that experience you wrote about. Starting with leaders disappoint as you mentioned. So that was a concept given to me at Harvard and I like to pause there for just a minute as though I actually went to Harvard but I really just went there for a three week program. And Professor Marty Linsky stood in front of a group of us and he said, "Feedership is about disappointing people at the rate they can absorb." And I sat in my seat. I was a commander at that time. I sat in my seat and I thought this man has lost his ever loving mind. No, it's not. Leadership is about having a vision. It's about taking people where they don't know they need to go. Where the organization needs to go. It's about inspiring people and all this beautiful butterflies and rainbows. And when he said it's about disappointing people, I thought that's a horrific definition of leadership. And then I got promoted to chief and I was sitting in my chair and it goes back to the concept of your responsible. When you are in any organization, you tend to look towards the person in charge and go, "Oh, that's bad leadership. They are like, "Hey guys, this wasn't my idea. This wasn't my policy decision." But we're person up there. And so you point always, it's over there, it's whoever's doing that. And I'm sitting in the big chair as a chief and I just made a decision in my department because the buck stops with me. And I understood in that moment that 50% of the people were going to appreciate that decision. And as I'm sitting in that chair, I thought, well, Marty Linsky, I totally understand what you're saying. And it also goes to making changes. I wanted to change the culture of our organization, but I also understood that you have to be deliberate and you have to do it in a way that's not too fast because, you know, what they say about change. There's nothing worse than cop hate than change or things saying the same. So you have to find that sweet spot, right? And so I understood in that moment that as a leader, you are going to make decisions in your organization that are going to hit people and leadership is about disappointing people at the rate they can't absorb, which simply means that you have to ask yourself these questions. And this was my limit message. Am I doing the right thing for the right reason and at the right time? And if I answered yes to all three of those questions, I had to be comfortable with disappointing people. And I would tell you, there were some time, and this is where you check your ego. There were some time where I finally got in the big chair and remember my tour of mentors and my snipers. I was like, oh, they tripped up. I've got them now. And now I'm the one who gets to administer discipline in the department. And I was like, okay, buddy, here we go. And then I did the, am I doing the right thing for the right reason at the right time? Oh, the answer is no. And so you cannot proceed. And so, you know, little bit about that. I mean, is that leadership is, is you cannot take a leadership position without the understanding that you're going to make decisions that are going to upset people, whether it's personnel decisions, whether it's policy decisions and things of that nature. So it's about leadership. What you're also saying, while there are plenty of people who take the position to get back at people who have given them a hard time and become vindictive, it's really not the right way to do that. I think that speaks to character. Is it the right thing to do? Can I get them back? Can I use the dare you go to power again? Can I use my power to get back at that person? Is it really worth it? Because I think it distracts you from the work that you are supposed to be doing for the greater good, not to swipe back at somebody who gave you a hard time a long time ago. It's interesting you say what you said about Marty Linsky because I remember being in an academy and I've been to so many academies, but I was at the New Hampshire Police Academy. And I remember this guy coming in and he had, you remember the Academy days. We were talking about tickets and writing tickets, the Motive Go tickets. And he said something that completely stirred the entire group and it says, you don't write a ticket for attitude. Now think about that. And everybody say, oh shit, you don't write about attitude. That guy gives me attitude. And we were fighting. He was just letting us go and letting us go and letting us go. And like Linsky, he was throwing a statement to get us to think differently. And it took the class probably three hours to figure out what he was saying. You didn't stop the person for an attitude. You stopped them for a violation. You're writing about the violation. The attitude may sway you how to use discretion one way or the other, but it isn't about attitude. And it really was one of those enlightening moments when you say, ah, now I get it. It's similar, but dissimilar. Absolutely. In fact, there's a whole chapter on power and it literally talked about just that is that we often look at power and we also attach to maybe a negative connotation to it, power. But power is actually can be very positive if you use that power for the best outcome, right? And in the book, I really try to delve into in balance of power that police officers have to understand. And that imbalance of power is exactly that and that is one I actually go through Vandra Blant incident as Malcolm Gladwell did in his book Talking Dranger. And in that high profile police incident where you look at this interaction between the officer and listen, I'm going to confess here that I have many times over the course of my career decided to write someone a ticket because they were melting off to me. And remember, like, I've got my pen out. Keep talking. Keep talking because you're going to get another ticket. And that is precisely what I delve into because that is the incorrect way to approach the problem because that is not the bad outcome. And that is where we as police officers have to look at our power and authority and are we using it for the best possible outcome. And sometimes that means checking our ego to understand that even a person with a bad attitude who is escalating things that we often put the onus on that person, whoever we're dealing with to deescalate. When really that's our job. And the essence of power is this very complex thing because we see power corrupting. We see people abusing power. And I challenge officers to really look at if there were an imbalance and abuse that there is an imbalance of power. I mean, we can all agree on that. We walk in as a command authority. But if there is anywhere to abuse power, might it be in the gray area of discretion. And so I just ask officers to take a look at that because we should be not exercising our authority as power over but power with us, possible outcome for it. And sometimes it is a wrap, of course. There's nothing soft about what I'm saying here is that accountability matters and we are going to need to take away people's freedoms. AKA take them to jail. But there are other times where we can work through an issue with the best possible outcome instead of just exerting autocratic power and authority. But it takes a little more time to do it, but it's worth it. Well, I think that's part of the training and if you've got a rigid training officer or you're at a department that is interested in counting being how many arrests have you made, how many citations did you write, why are you writing more warnings than citations? It begins to jade the way you look because I could tell you that I regret tickets that I had written in the past because the afterwards it turns out that that person is a business person. I run into him. I feel like a jackass that I wrote him up because he's friendly, friendly to me and I be friendly to the guy. And so I think that's important what we count is really important. Yeah, it is. That's the tone and an organization of what's important to the organization. In my department, people got shame for not producing. There was a commander he called it the point system and you had to do X amount of things make a rest and you got put on a wall And you're there was a ranking and all that does make people just write crappy Disciations and make crappy arrest that don't have great Yeah, you're not driving down crime right right? You're not driving down crime. Yeah, you're great. So gotta get to the end because we've exhausted a discussion I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours Kristen Zeman is who we're speaking with in Naples, Florida She is retired now has written a book reimagining blue and is the former chief in Aurora, Illinois I want to know how you would end where do we go from here? What do police chiefs police leaders need to pay attention to to write the ship? Oh, gosh, that's a complex question. You know, and if I absolutely had the solution But I would be in my own island that I own somewhere But here's where I believe we are and this is how and the book is where we go from here We are most certainly at a crossroad in our beloved profession And I think that you can love this profession and still understand that it need to be better And I think that's the first case we start and I realize that's a little abstract and get to the more concrete examples But abstractly what we need is to lose the blinds loyalty and that is where especially in these high incidents that make headlines These incidents that tarnish the badge across the nation that we have to look at these incidents not just nationally But in our own of departments our own organization and say okay guys here is the incident here's what happened Here's how it unfold it let's talk about how we could have been better less after action and listen I'm not a big horse person, but those of you who love your 40 balls This will make sense to you guys look at for three ohs that's what the professionals do They pull the reels. Okay guys look and what happened here with you with your hand where you look at how you move here You die that's a real and then you make a determination and a tweak going forward How we're gonna perform on the field make adjustments So why don't we throw up these videos and go alright guys here is a traffic stop and let's I said that let's see where could we have done better and some people think that it's the judgment or that you're You're calling an off-the-out and see I look at it just the opposite is okay Let's learn from the incident so we can be better going forward and we haven't really created a culture of doing that Instead we automatically jump to you the side of the off and instead of going okay hold on You know let's be where we could have maybe done a better job here if you had taken this incident to a more peaceful outcome So I think that's where we begin and the second part is it's so funny about defunding the police and I don't mean funny Ha but when I first heard the term of defunding the police I was like oh my gosh How are you gonna defund the police you want to abolish the police and then I said what does that mean and people told me Well, we want to put more resources to social workers and to mental health professionals and I said oh my gosh You guys the police have been asking for that for years. We have all the social ailments that fall upon our shoulders substance abuse Homelessness mental illness you call 911 for all of this and now you're saying you want to take that away from us and put that to another Agency I was like you guys have not been listening to us now don't take funding from my department because my department 93% is my personal but if you want to allocate fun or create legislation that puts funding I would love that Let's have social workers in if they can respond and we don't have to Boom and actually the great handoffs we don't have handoffs on the weekends as you understand you wish But social service is not available after five o'clock on a Friday So what do you do when you have the baby sit a child because you brought mommy and daddy to jail those kinds of things now Kristen I have to wind down But one thing that you said that I spent a lot of time talking to sergeants especially is it's about budget You just said something that I think will blow the minds of many people you said 93% of your budget is about Personnel it's and I understand it's personnel it's benefits over time those kinds of things which leaves you Which you're saying 7% for everything else talk about how difficult it is to run a department with Percent discretionary money. Oh for sure and then you look at cutting resources So if you only have about 7% what do you spend it on? I know the answer and I'll tell you the answer is Three thing training training training because you play like you practice and so many Apartments when they find themselves in budgetary constraints the first thing that they cut is training and yet that is the thing that True needs to be amped up because that's where law foods that's where we make our date and so I believe well Hardedly that training needs to be first and foremost in de escalation training active shooter training We've seen in recent events here in our nation where officers did not rise to the level where their training should be and now that is Attarnish across our entire profession. So at training has to be paramount I remember looking at my VFO of my city who told me your training budget is insane and we have to cut it and I said Hmm you will have to prime my training budget out of my cold dad hand But your point is that you have to learn how to run a police department on these constraints and you have to be creative in doing so But I think to kind of wrap for your question is where we go from here is let's be open-minded And I mean we as law enforcement about some of these Progressive reforms with social workers. We had social workers on our department before the murder of George Floyd Where it was demanded of us we've been doing that let's come up with a new solution Maybe a hybrid model because we can work together and then call in the police when that individual becomes violent Let's look at some other solutions where we turn over homelessness to social service agencies and not have 9-1-1 So that's a good place to start is let's be visit some of the systems and processes that we have always done Traditionally and let's look at what's a third alternative? But we have to get everybody to the table because the best idea wins and then I'll kind of leave it here We already talked about mental health and wellness and so that's another thing because I normally believe that hurt people hurt people so we have to make sure our cops get the assistance they need so they can perform well on the street and treat people with Human dignity and respect and most importantly we need to lean in we are at across roads in our profession and in our country when it comes to Devices is it that you've got to pick a side and your police or your anti-police and here's the thing you can be both like I said You can be supportive of your police department and still want them to be better And I think this is where we have to lean in into our community especially the communities that don't trust the police We have to make a point to build those relationships and it sounds so cliche and it sounds so trite But you asked me earlier how I run a meeting no different than how I run a community meeting It's no difference is that you bring police officers to the table and you bring people to the table who live in communities and you say Watch the problem here and how can we fix it together? And so it's the same solution that we have in our board meetings and in our Command staff meeting and in our sergeant meeting it's the same formula is that we have to lean in and we have to ask Tell me what your idea and that is where I think that we can transform an entire profession An entire community and entire nation so that we have the support of our residents. Well I'm gonna leave that as you last word because I think you have been very very helpful and Open and forthright I can see why you were successful Kristen I can and I wish you the best of luck. We're talking to Kristen Zeman. She is the author of reimagining blue and Former chief Aurora Illinois. Thank you for being here your day is going to begin down at Naples I hope it's a sunny Saturday is it it is it is It's pretty much always funny. Yeah, yeah, just rub it in so that's it That's another episode of the cop doc in the can I'm Steve Morielli coming from Boston and we're just finishing with Kristen Zeman and Naples Florida Thank you very much, Chris, been being here. Oh, thank you so much doc. I appreciate you having me. It's been a pleasure Thanks for listening to the cop doc podcast with doctor Steve Morielli Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University Please tune into the cop doc podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing