041: TAVO Sleep device w/ founder Tadas Kunickas

Intro Hello, everyone. Welcome to nature with this podcast. I'm Doctor Sophia and I'm Doctor Justina, and we're naturopathic doctors on a mission to inspire others to be their own healing power. Speaker 2 Today's guest is Tadas Kunikas, the founder of Tabo Sleep, a wearable alarm clock brand designed to wake you in light sleep. Thank you so much for being here on our show. It's such a pleasure, especially because we haven't really like took a deep dive into sleep. So we're super pumped to talk about that. So awesome to have you. Speaker 3 Yeah, it's awesome to be here and I'm super excited to dive into sleep, our alarm clock and a lot of a lot of things. So thanks for having me. Speaker 2 Absolutely. We're super curious about everything about the alarm clock, but we're also curious about you. So wherever you want to begin and kind of how you how you got to designing or creating this brand. How Tadas got into sleep How did you get into sleep? How did you get into the whole alarm clock business? I guess wherever you want to start, we're we're all ears. Speaker 3 Yeah. So I guess I have a very like kind of unconventional story. And what happened was I'm I had a traumatic brain injury around junior year of high school. It was it was the start of junior of high school and that completely kind of flipped my life around. And, you know, now looking back at in the best possible way, but it was just a very, I guess, very drastic event that happened. And so I was junior year, I was getting ready to play varsity soccer. I was, you know, all kind of fit and just, and just to go get her and just I saw my life, you know, continuing to play soccer my whole life. And then this like kind of freak accident happened where I was on vacation and I grabbed my longboard just to go out to to longboard down a hill. And it was a little bit more hilly than I was used to, you know, in Brookfield, it's just kind of flat. But where I was, there was definitely some hills. And that's what, you know, as as like a long border you watch on YouTube, like people going down hills and stuff. And I was just like really excited about that. And I maybe didn't even think about the implications of it or like the, the, you know, the, the bad side, what could happen if I fell or anything. And so I guess I was just grab my long board and went out to long, went out to to ride it basically. And I went down a hill. At this point, I don't know what happened because I don't remember it. I'm just recalling from what people have told me. But I fell off this long board onto my left shoulder and I cracked my skull and I was just like in complete pain. And it was actually crazy because the spot that I was in, it's like known to not have cell phone service. But somehow I was able to reach like either through the emergency, like dial on my phone or somehow is able to reach my parents. And I was able to communicate with them that like something is wrong. Like I hurt myself. I don't know what I actually said, but they were able to understand that like, oh, like he's in big trouble. And so after that they found me a couple, you know, minutes later and they realized something was, was really wrong. I, I was bleeding from my head. And so they took me to, we got in a car and they, you know, they took me immediately to the local hospital, which was in Indiana, I believe. And, and at, you know, at this point, I was like throwing up in the car. I was just really like, bad. And when I got to the hospital, the doctors there told me that this is really serious and they're going to have to airlift me to Loyola Medical Center in Chicago to do an operation on me, a head surgery. And I believe in the, in the helicopter that I was in, they put me in an induced coma. And then they, yeah, they took me to the hospital. And from my perspective, what I remember is just waking up after a couple days in this. But during in, in the hospital, I mean, but during this time, what happened was they took off half of my skull. They they went into my head and, you know, they kind of cut that piece that was already broken just for allow, allow it, allow for it to breathe a little bit and, and to not basically swell up. And during this time, it was like a really scary time for my parents. I know Yustaf for for our doctor, Justina for Jokobis, your your brother. He even visited me when I was like under and basically like the doctors didn't know. They didn't know what to tell my parents, whether I was going to be, you know, waking up completely like myself or like a different person or whether I was going to wake up at all. And so I guess like, now I look back on this whole story and kind of like, think of it as like I'm living a second life. And I'm so grateful for that. And it, it really, it really, I guess left a big impact on me because when I woke up, I did not know how to eat, how to speak, how to walk, how to talk anything. I was like, AI was like a baby reborn. And it was like a very interesting experience for me to like and mind all this. Like, you know, there's the other perspective of like looking at me and, and seeing what I was going through. But then my perspective was also very different. It's very opposite. I felt like I knew what happened some way somehow, even though like I didn't consciously remember it, but I knew everything was going to be OK. And I even remember like seeing myself in like this. I don't know, maybe I was in a coma or I was dreaming, but I like, remember seeing myself in this third person just laying in the bed and I just, I was so at peace. Like I, I actually felt like like at peace and just, I knew everything was going to be OK, but that something had happened and that, you know, there's now I'm waking up in the hospital and I don't know how to communicate with like I think, I think I can communicate rather like I thought I was, you know, communicating, talking with everyone. But apparently I wasn't saying anything. I was just like mumbling words. And my, I think I remember my, my mom showed me like this iPad and she said, if you want this say iPad and like, maybe like, I don't know, a couple hours later I like start like mumbling and start screaming like I passed. And that was like, I don't like, I guess my first, my first new words. But yeah, after that, like I proceeded to just, I, I think then they took me. Yeah. So it was, I was in the ICUI was there for about 5 days, maybe a little bit longer. But then after that they had to take me to a rehab center. And also I woke up without half my skull on. So I had a helmet on my head and not like like basically no, my skull was sitting in a freezer in the hospital. And and I didn't really even understand what was like going on at that point. But I just, I just kind of started going with the flow and, you know, accepting things as they are like a baby. Like I couldn't really change much. I was just kind of living in there in the moment. And so I got, you know, taken to a rehab center where I had to, where it was an amazing rehab center. It's called Marian Joy. And I had to go through some physical therapy, some occupational therapy, speech therapy, and it was, it was honestly like a really good experience there, but at the same time hard. And I remember one of the hardest things, like after that was when they when I had to come back and it it might have, yeah, it was during that time I was in rehab, but I had to take a test that kind of asked me about my injury. And I remember like, I really vividly remember one question. It was like, do you feel guilty about your injury and what happened to you? And I, I couldn't even understand what that question meant. I was like, like, mom, like, why do I, like, what does this mean? Like, what do I, what do I answer here? Because I really, I don't know, I was just, I guess I was developing like my brain was redeveloping, re turning back on. And I, I think of it as like, it was like a, almost like a hard reset for my body. But you know, thankfully like I recovered over the years super well. I think I had a miraculous recovery within like 6 months. People are telling me that I was speaking like myself during this time. I was like on a bunch of like medicine, like all the hard drugs. And so my brain went through a lot of like I guess chemical variations and changes. And I had even like some seizure tendency post or I had to take seizure medicine because apparently during my coma I had some sort of like seizure episode or whatever. But I, yeah, thankfully, like I recovered so fast and I had a great speech pathologist that was actually Lithuanian. So when I woke up out of this coma, I was actually screaming at my doctors in Lithuanian first before anything because it was my first language that I learned. And my mom later told me this. And I and like the doctor came in and she's like, yeah, this is the doctor you screamed at. And it was, I guess kind of funny, but the, the whole recovery process was like, I'm so like I listened to a actually one of your podcasts earlier called the, it was talking about the innate, the innate God in US or the innate, an innate like intelligence that's in US. And I guess like my guy was just super working hard on OverDrive because he went, he went through a lot, He went through a lot and he recovered. Like he helped me recover so, so miraculously fast. And I remember like, yeah, I guess a year later, my, my speech was kind of still like stuttering. And I had trouble with my speech because my left side of my brain was hit, which is like apparently the speech area. And so that was something that I was kind of self-conscious about and I just started noticing it. But I guess after, you know, this kind of would lead into sleep, the doctors told me that I have to sleep 10 hours or more like basically a lot for my brain to recover. And so Long story short, that's kind of how I got into the whole sleep and, and just really started, I guess that was the initial point where the doctors would told me that I had to really sleep. And, and then, you know, we can like going into college. And then before that, like I had a really, really good, yeah, really good recovery. I recovered fast. And I actually like ended up doing really well in my last semester of, of high school or my last year of, of high school. This was junior year. So I actually had to miss 1/4 of school. And I had, oh, at the time also I was learning, I was in Spanish as well. And I remember the hardest thing for me was when a Spanish tutor came to my house and she tried teaching me like Spanish, like picking up basically where we left off last year, like predator versus imperfect. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like this? Not like, I don't even, not like, I have no recollection of this. And like it was. So that was one of the toughest, toughest things for me. And I guess before that even like, like I said, I started speaking Lithuanian first. But then I'm so thankful that I had a, a Lithuanian speech pathologist that worked at Marian Joy and she was able to work with me and teach and teach me like English again, but talk, but basically talking Lithuanian because I was more comfortable with that at the time. And an interesting thing also happened is that I had to, when I woke up, I had lost all sense of my right side. So I had to like rebuild the right side of my body. And when she made me write, I would just pick it up with my left hand and start writing. And like, like it was normal. I didn't even want to write with my right hand because it was, it just seemed so unnatural. And I remember I had to, she taught me how to like relearn how to write with my right hand. And that was that was pretty crazy because I was like, I'm just so comfortable with my left. Why would I write with my right? That was that was rehab. And that was speech pathology. But then, yeah, the doctors told me I had to sleep a lot. And, you know, and how, how I got into this alarm clock business was basically because I had to sleep a lot. Other people's alarm clocks would disturb me so much. And that, you know, they would, I was sleeping in a, in a dorm room and the like, my roommate's alarm would go off and it would be maybe, you know, just going off for 20 minutes or, you know, prolonged period of time, but basically would be disrupting my sleep. And I really felt that as someone who needed a sleep. And so for me, it was just like such a, such like a, like a problem. And I was like, we could definitely fix this problem. And so in, in the beginning years of, of college, I took some, some engineering classes and we were forced to, not forced, but we were just tasked with solving any problem. And, and I chose the problem of making a silent alarm clock because I was like, all right, this is kind of what I want to do. And it, at that point, it was just the project. It was never going to be anything. It was never going to be any kind of company or or thing like that. But but then I remember I really how I got into like the whole light sleep wake up part is I started using an app that was that I thought was like magic. It basically tracked my movements through the microphone and it it recognized when I was moving more, when I was like awake, you could say. And then it would go off and I remember the first time using it. I was really amazed because I was trying to find something that would help me essentially like sleep less and still wake up feeling like right and not groggy. And I remember like the first time I used it, I was turning in bed and I was like turning over on one side and I was already like consciously awake. And then the alarm sounded and I was like, no way. It knows when I'm awake. Like that's, that's crazy. And that to me. To me, it was like an incredible thing because because I got up and I was just up and at him. Like it wasn't like I was, you know, being forced awake by an alarm. And I loved how much it recognized that I was already awake and and, you know, woke me up. And so that's kind of that was like a very inception point for for Thabo and what it is now, because I was like, this is so cool. I started showing all my friends. They started, you know, sharing about it. I was like, guys, this is so cool. You got to use this like 100%. If you use an alarm clock, like this is the way to go. You know, we have we actually have sleep cycles and there's a there's a correct time to wake up. And so I remember after showing a couple of my friends, they were like, yeah, this thing, you know, it's cool, but it doesn't really work because I have like my fan on in the room and like, if I'm like moving around too much like it, it, it just didn't like catch everything. And it wasn't that accurate. And then at that point, I was, I was in AI was exposed to entrepreneurship. I was in an entrepreneurship class. And similarly to my freshman year, I was also put in a class where it's like, all right, solve a problem. But this time it was like make a company idea and go for it rather than rather than solve, you know, some sort of like problem with your hands and physically build it, which is what I did freshman year. And so I kind of was, you know, I had this thing that I built freshman year. I was thinking about this light sleep thing. I was really, really into it. And I was like, hey, might as well, you know, why don't we just combine these two things and let's let's pitch that as like a version 2 or something. So I went to my professor and I was like, you know, that this I have this idea with the silent alarm and then version 2 would be like a light sleep wake up part because it could actually track your movement rather than listening to you and picking up, you know, all the sounds and everything. And I was like, this makes so much more sense to just have it on your wrist than than to have your phone next to your bed on all the time plugged in, wasting battery. And it just seemed like a more practical version of this. And I was and and he responded, he was like, no, just this is this is perfect. Don't even go for number one option, go for the number two option because it sounds more interesting. It sounds like new, it sounds innovative. I've never heard anything like that. So go for that. And and then, you know, it started with a a couple slide decks, a couple presentations, just me in my room thinking about how this would look and how it would I would function. And then really also after what happened was there was this competition, like a entrepreneurship competition. And they're all like, yeah, everyone who has a company in this class should then apply to this competition. And I got into this competition. It was, you know, it was put together like a small team. It was basically my roommates. And and we, you know, we went for it. We went, we put like AI guess at this point it still wasn't like a thinking of a company. It was just like, all right, let's just try this. So we made a couple poster boards and explained how it worked. And really I think like for me it what it was cool is when like investors are like high level people, investor type people came up to us and they're like, wow, this is a really cool idea. Like keep us updated on your progress. And I was like, OK, you know, I just like, well, taking notes. And then after that event I was like, this is, you know, this is this could be like a path forward. This is really cool. And then being like, all right, well, let's keep making, you know, these new slide decks. Let's keep let's keep iterating the design. Let's let's kind of, you know, just fantasize how it would look. So it was like a year of heads down, just, you know, thinking of what the product would even feel, look and and function like. We got accepted into an accelerator program that I applied to and I was even thinking this might have been even been two years after, but I was just thinking, yeah, like I'm going to be, I want to be in Chicago. I kind of don't even want to be in school anymore. Like I'm ready to graduate. I'm ready to get out, move, move forward. And this, this application was I, I wasn't even going to apply to it, honestly. And some the the program director convinced me that, you know, we should definitely think about it and that it would it would be a good fit. And then when we got accepted to the, to the accelerator like a month or two later, it was like, OK, wow, this is real. Because at that point we got some, we got a little bit of funding and that funding was like real. It was reality. We got like 10 or 20 Ki think it was like it was a small amount, but it was enough for us to like basically we all got a stipend from it and enough for us to make like a beta. And that's when we, that's when we made the beta. That was, I guess just a tough thing to figure outgoing from zero to 1, like how to even begin. And so a good thing I had some of that like prior engineering knowledge from freshman year. And I kind of knew like, all right, we got to get a chip, we got to, we got to code an app and we got to, you know, find a band and a manufacturer. And I kind of started putting these things together. And by the end of the year, by or by the end of the beta program, the accelerator, we've launched the beta publicly and we got like people interested in actually using our device. And that was really cool. We had like a 300 person wait list and it was, we were asking people for reasons for why they would want this alarm. And yeah, and we ended up launching like 60. We, we actually sold them. We sold them for a like a, not a profit, like actually a loss because we just wanted to kind of test it out and see if it worked. And the, the feedback was, was pretty good. We got these 60 users like that and people started testing it. You know, there's a lot back in the day, there was like 1 feature and it was only to set your alarm. But we thought it was like the, the real deal everything. It was just cool to see people use it. And a lot of people, you know, they, they, a lot of people use it. A lot of people fell off of it because it was just one feature kind of thing, no user experience, no anything. And it was, it kind of relied on me taking the device to people and explaining it in person how it works and then trusting them that they would use it. We had a little handbook as well. But then I guess to to kind of sum up the story, we took the like a couple years later, we took that same beta, beta. I was, I had already moved to Chicago. I had already taken a part time job. I was not even like working on this. And things really shifted when I went to when I was invited to speak at a dance festival in was Baltimore, Boston, but it was a Lithuanian dance festival and they had an entrepreneurship corner talking about business and they invited me to speak about it. And I was coming in and not working on this full time. I spoke about it and spoke about my, my journey of how to, how I created it, how we voted it together. And then at that point, I did not want to go back to my job. I remember after my, I guess after that speech, I was like, all right, like this is it. I can't go back to I had a really cool job. I was just driving boats on Lake MI, but still I was like, I can't, I can't go back because I feel like I have to do this for some reason. I went back to to the boating place. I told him, hey, I'm kind of out. I can train your next people that are going to come in. But I want to be like, I want to be out because I have some other things to do. I have something I want to really pursue. And everyone knew that there because I kept talking about it. And, and so that that was another, I guess, big moment when I stepped away from that job and I told him that I would just be flying to Lithuania and I don't know when I'd be back. And so in Lithuania, we really got like, you know, we took that same beta app and we were showing people and we, we showed it the last day. We showed it's like a mentor and this and this mentor, we, we gave it to him at the beginning of the trip and we met up with him the last day And he basically told us that throughout the 30 days, he couldn't figure out how to work, how to make the app work and that it was terrible. And that we, we have a lot of work to do basically. And that he had no idea how to use it. He's like, you guys got to like do some major work. And at this point I was crushed. I was like, I dropped everything. Are you kidding me? And I was like, well, you know what, like I just got to be, I just got to learn from this. And we, we have to take what this guy said seriously and what can we do to actually make it better? And I came back to, to Chicago and it was like I had fully, I had fully developed a plan to move forward and to what, to what to improve, who to hire, what kind of app updates we needed and just like to get it up to speed to, you know, so people can understand what it is and get it working. And that's when I started working on table version 1, which is, which is what is on our website right now and kind of the whole, the whole product. And so from there, it's been I think three years since that. And I think this is the second year we launched, we launched the product. And so now we've had a whole entire year and a half, a little bit more than a year and a half of sales and we've launched new products to kind of complement this alarm clock. So because in my experience, when I, when I was talking to people and just telling them about the alarm, a lot of people are like, I don't even have a sleep cycle. Like first of all, like I'm a nurse and I go to sleep like at 4:00 AM and I wake up at like 3:00 PM. Like I don't even have a sleep cycle. And I was like, well, yeah, we can't really help you, I guess. But I wanted to still help them because I had the inside of me. Like I have this, I don't know, in a passion or purpose to like help people and, and just to really genuinely help people solve their, solve whatever problem they have. I don't know what that is, but I simply recommended that she should get this acupressure mat because it's helped me fall asleep like all the time. And I've used it for 10 years and I'm like, this is the perfect product. Like it's, you know, it's buy it on Amazon. It's really nice. Just like these spikes you lay on, it stimulates your back and helps you fall asleep faster. And she instantly pulled out her phone. This lady that I was talking to actually had an event. I had a biohacking event where I thought people knew about sleep more, more than not, But I realized that people don't maybe even really know about sleep cycles and how we sleep. But what she did do is she bought this thing right on the spot. And I was like, wow, this is, you know, it's really cool that that she got this. And I know it's going to help her because I recommended it to other people and it's helped them. And so for me, it was, it was very natural to add these other products to our, our offering in our company because now we can help, you know, we can, we can say, hey, you don't need to go to Amazon. You can go to tavosleep.com and you can buy one of these acupressure mats and you can, you know, it could help you fall asleep faster. And so, yeah. And so we, we have a couple other products like nose, nose strips and mouth tape that help you breathe a little bit better at night. And breathing is huge at night because if you, if you're getting the right amount of oxygen, you're getting more deep rest, your body's recovering faster. If you, On the contrary, if you're not getting oxygen at night, you're not going to have deep sleep. You're not going to be able to sleep. Yeah, basically as deep, you're going to have frequent awakenings. That's basically what sleep apnea is from my understanding. And so, yeah, now we're at this point where we, you know, we have a, we have a company that's on an alarm clock that wakes you up in your latest stage of sleep, silently not disturbing anyone else. And, you know, we offer other products to help you sleep better, deeper, fall asleep faster. And it's been, it's been a crazy journey, but I'm just so grateful at each and every step that I was, you know, courageous enough to, to not give up, to keep going. And, and that kind of like the fire inside of me, even though I had this really good job riding boats on the lake, I still wanted to leave that and do this for some reason. And I don't know, I think it's kind of like my calling. And based on, you know, my experience, I think the brain injury has really left me, left me sensitive to my sleep. And I was able to become more aware of these the of the sleep cycle and how we wait, we might wake up not in the correct stage. And I really just want to kind of share that with the world. And and I say that we are reinventing the alarm clock completely because there's no point in cutting off your sleep short and, you know, waking you up mid sleep cycle when there's a natural time to wake up. And, you know, that's way better and way more natural for our bodies. So yeah, that's my Long story. Short or short story long. Speaker 2 It was definitely an incredible story and like an incredible journey like through and through, really from the very beginning up to the end and, and kind of yeah, everything happening for a reason for you and look and getting to look at everything as a blessing, even though you had every right not to, right. The right time to wake up and the right sleep cycle Yeah, of course. Speaker 1 We're so glad that you're here and that you've created this 'cause I'm so curious. You've mentioned multiple times that like, you know, that there's a correct time to wake up and like I didn't get that or I needed it for my healing. And then and so tell us more about like what this sleep cycle is, what it actually should be. When should we wake up? Like what is the light, you know, cycle? Because a lot of people think like, Oh, I'm not hitting R.E.M. enough, right? They have the aura rings. I have a Garmin watch that I use right to track my sleep every night. So and it does movement, respirations and all of that. So I know the OR ring too does heart rate variability. So tell us more about this cycle and then how it can help with healing. Speaker 3 Yeah. So basically when we're going we have, you know, we sleep in cycles. It's not maybe people understand it is like or before we understood is we just go to sleep and then we wake up. But it's completely wrong take and we actually sleep in 90 minute cycles, meaning we go through these 90 minute cycles and we go through 4 stages every cycle. So we start off at in light sleep, we go to light sleep 2 and then we go to deeper sleep. And then after deep sleep is R.E.M. our dream, our dream sleep. And then after dream sleep, we kind of wake up a little bit briefly, just briefly. And then we go into another sleep cycle. And usually, you know, the normal night you're, you're going to have like 5 to six of these sleep cycles at 7, seven and a half to 9 hours. And so during these sleep cycles, what happens is our brain goes through a recovery process, cleaning out the fluids and the, and the junk that's going on in our brain, essentially like getting rid of the memories or the things that happened during the day that we don't need in our brain. And during REM sleep, we actually solidify our memories in our brain. And that's why we have dreams, because we're like replaying our days and just saving that in our heads. And so it's, you know, the whole cycle is really important. In the beginning, we're kind of cleaning things out, making some space, and then with R.E.M., we're saving new things. So like we, that's, I don't know, I guess it's, it's the cycle is really important for learning, for cognition, for memory. Like if you know the anecdotal thing of like if we sleep 4 1/2 hours for four days straight and we're used to sleeping 7 1/2, well, everyone can picture what that feels like because it's just, it will not be a good time. You're going to be either making mistakes, you know, in your work or you know, some, some even accidents or something might happen or you're just not fully aware. So getting, I guess getting proper amount of sleep is the most important thing like sleeping at least 7 1/2, I say 7 1/2, that's five sleep cycles. But some people need more like some, you know, some people need 9 hours of sleep. And it really, really just depends on your body. I wouldn't, I wouldn't go below like 6 hours or like even at six hours because some people might say that they, they're great on six hours and they're really good and like, you know, everything is fine. But I think what has happened there is people have gotten used to sleeping that six hours and their bodies are just constantly in that state and they don't, you know, they don't even realize that it could be better. It was I, I did, I did an an experiment like I slept 9 hours or a month straight every single day and I didn't, I didn't have any compromises. Like I didn't want to wake up earlier than 9 hours. I just wanted to get maximum on a sleep. And during that time, my entire world also changed. It was like I was so less anxious. I had no, I didn't even know what anxiety was at that point. Like it had completely left my body. I was, I was fully like I was more creative. I was more engaged with what I was doing and I thought it was really, really cool. And for a second, like I thought I like, I was going to continue it. It was an experiment. But it's just, I guess it just made me more aware of how much, how much of a difference 9 hours of sleep can make versus 6 hours of sleep. And, and so I guess the other part of it is like waking up in that light sleep. And what is light sleep? So like I said that we have these 4 stages and at the end of a sleep cycle, we're in light sleep again. Our bodies are briefly awake, they're repositioning to get into another sleep cycle. This is when we're most naturally awake. And so if we're like in the middle of the night, we don't really recognize that we don't feel it. We just go straight back to sleep. It might just come out in in like a movement form like turning over in bed. But if you're, if you are sleeping less than 9 hours and you're not waking up naturally or, or if you are waking up naturally, we're waking up in light sleep. And so if you're using an alarm clock to wake up earlier than you naturally wake up, so you need to go to work, so you need to, you know, wake up for a flight or go to school. Well, that alarm time is set or are like world clock. It's you know, it's going to be 6:00 AM no matter what and it's not going to have any regard to your sleep cycle. It's not going to pay attention to, you know, what stage you're in. And when you use something like Taba, which is a smart alarm, it detects the removement through your wrist movement through you shuffling around in bed. It detects when that light sleep is and starts vibrating to let you know that you're awake. And that's, you know, that's basically how it works and how you can almost like optimize or hack your sleep. You could say to wake up at the most natural lifetime for you, but not necessarily sleeping maybe like the full 9 hours or 10 hours or however long. You know, there's, there's different types of sleepers. I'm more of a sleeper that can sleep just like almost forever, like 10 hours. So I can do, I can do. Yeah, like I'm, I can sleep long, but some people can't. And so for me it really works well because I can't sleep 9 hours a day. I guess there's just too much stuff to do for me. But it just, it ends up being that this, this really works well for me because I can then sleep 7 1/2 hours and maybe sometimes even 6. Like I don't like to do 6 at all, but when it's necessary, I like, I can do six hours one night and wake up feeling right. But if I do that more than two nights in a row, it starts to go downhill and, and everything kind of falls. And so the tablet basically helps you. Yeah, wake up earlier then, you know, then, then maybe you would want to sleep or, or maybe that your body is, you know, needs to sleep. But we live in this world of like, you know, we need to get up, we need to go to work. And, and so I guess this is kind of an intersection of teaching your body, your, your natural way, how you innately are meant to wake up, combined with like our 21st century of like, we need to get up for work. We need to do this, we need to get on a flight. And that's it, you know, to, to use your, use the tools that you can to, to do that. And, and, you know, up until this point, we've had the alarm clock, the phone alarm clock and, and I guess you know that those other smart alarm clocks like the light alarm. And yeah, I think, yeah, it's just a perfect intersection of I, I like to say that the tabo teaches your body to wake up in the most natural state because over time we've seen that happen. We've seen people basically get used to waking up in the light sleep. And then three years later, four years later, like our beta testers, they don't even need it anymore, or they need it just occasionally to when they need to wake up because it, you know, it just, it makes you more in tune with your body, makes you more in tune with when you're actually supposed to wake up versus alarm clocks. They force you awake, they force you out of bed, they force you by making a sound that activates your, your stress hormones, your amygdala, And it, you know, it essentially, it essentially goes against your body. And, you know, that's why we might hate our alarm clocks. I don't know, that just might be, that might be one of the reasons why, but that's what it does. And and our bodies, you know, don't necessarily really like that. We're just probably used to it. And we don't know that there there could be a better way. But there, you know, in fact, there in fact can be. Speaker 2 It's really cool that what you said that it's an alarm clock that trains you essentially to wake up at in your natural rhythm in the lightest sleep. So it's basically like very holistic, very naturopathic because it's basically teaching people not to need the alarm clock anymore, right. Whereas like naturopathic doctors are kind of like teaching people to listen to their body. So they like don't need, you know, a doctor basically. So that, that is really cool. It's, yeah, it's, it's like you have this just for a little bit until or have it, you know, however long it takes until you are trained properly to wake up. Because in reality, we shouldn't be using alarm clocks at all, I think. Speaker 3 Yeah, I agree. I agree. Especially like the, you know, the ones that currently exist. Definitely not. Speaker 2 But yeah, like you said, in our modern world, like we need to wake up. So we need to have something. And like you said, this is this is the best intersection for it. And yeah, I can. Speaker 3 Really. Say go ahead, go ahead. Speaker 2 No, go ahead. Speaker 3 No, I was just gonna say like, not to your point of like you might need it. You might not need it after a year. But it's also the opposite that like sleep is such a ingrained thing in us that we all that we're so like naturally doing. We have a rhythm and we've been doing it all life that like it might take a little bit longer than expected for you to, to shift that perspective or shift your mind or shift your body over to it. But after, yeah, after like, you know, three years or four years of using it, I think that's enough time for for your body to learn when is when is the actual right time to wake up? Because essentially, yeah, you're you're going from waking up to something that's consistently forcing you awake to then learning when your body naturally awake. Skins and then you're waking up consistently better and better and better. And so if that's really that's really the idea and that that's how I describe it is like it, you know, it could it trains you to to wake up in that light sleep and it's really cool to see. Like I said, some of our beta users, you know, back from when we first released that beta sold it for a loss. Those people actually have, you know, some people have transformed their wake up completely where they don't need it anymore, like one of our users in particular. But then on the other side, like a doctor or someone who is consistently waking up at a unnatural time for them, you know, it's always going to be needed and useful because they are waking up at like that. Four AM, 3:00 AM, whatever it can be, whatever time. I remember one big push for me personally was when we went back to those beta users and asked like, and just wanted to ask for interviews. And one of the people, he said he's used it every single day since he got it. And this was like 2 1/2 years that we haven't that I haven't talked to him. And I was like, wow, no way. And so he, he is actually a doctor, a night shift doctor, resident doctor. And it just worked like really well, I guess for for that type of person because, well, you're never going to be naturally waking up at 3:00 AM, you know, unless, unless you do it for long enough, I guess. But that was that was really cool to see that, you know, some people can get better from it and completely fix their sleep. But for some people, it's just like, you know, it's better to have than a regular alarm that, you know, you don't want, like a blaring alarm going off at 4:00 AM waking up your wife or your babies or your or your kids or your dogs. Yeah, that, that's been a thing too. Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it definitely depends on people's lifestyles for sure. And like all the night shift workers or, or anything else, it's it's yeah, it's it's just going to be different for everyone. Speaker 3 Yeah, I completely agree. And that's how sleep is. You know, it's different for everyone. And that's when we, when we advertise or sell the device or at least write follow up emails to them, It's like, you know, you have to experiment with like the wake up window. So like, I guess instead of just describe it quickly, I don't know if I missed this part, but like instead of a set time, you're setting a wake up window. So it's going to be 30 minutes, 45 minutes or 60 minutes. And so that's what we tell people. We tell people to experiment with the wake up window. We tell people to experiment with, you know, how long it is and, and just find and the also the hours set. So we have like a preset time where it's like you can press on 4 1/2 hours, 6 hours, 7 1/2 and 9. And that kind of helps the device also gauge like how long now, how long it's, how long you're trying to sleep. It also helps to gauge like the light sleep part. But it also like going back to the user. It's just like everyone's different and you have to find your own way of like maybe, yeah, maybe first you start off at like where, where you were before six hours or 7 1/2 and then you work your way up. But it's, it's very versatile and I'm glad we built something that's like a universal, almost like tool. It's not like a, it's not like a smart watch in a way that like it tells you how much sleep you need. If you need 3 hours of sleep or if you need, if you can only get 4 hour and a half hours of sleep, it'll like catch your light sleep phase after those 4 1/2 hours. And so it makes it like super universal and super, I guess just dynamic. And we also have a really cool feature. It's it's power nap mode. And I was just using that and I'd love to using that, but it's like a NSDRI think it's called non sleep deep rest that I think is super underrated. And people barely talk about this. I think we've started talking more about meditation, more about like power naps and and yeah, like power, I guess power naps are really how you would describe it. But non sleep deep rest is essentially it's like it's like a meditation, It's like a it's getting that deep rest without necessarily sleeping, without necessarily going into your night of sleep. And So what you can do is take a power nap, for example, I don't know now if it's accurate non sleep deep rest because what happens in a power nap is your brain waves go from N R.E.M. One to N R.E.M two or your sleep cycle changes from NRM one to NRM 2 and your brain waves actually slow down and they like regulate and they like they basically stabilize and it can be like 10. Like it's not even, I wanted to say 10 times more effective than coffee, but it's not even comparable. Like you feel so refreshed, your mind, your creativity, everything just feels so much better if you're able to take like this 15 to 20 minute nap. And why 15 to 20 minutes is because after 20 minutes you fall into that deep sleep and that, you know, you can wake up after 30 or 40 minutes and feel super groggy and your body, if you wake up after 30 minutes, you're just want to going to want to keep sleeping. And I'm sure we've had, we've all had these experiences where like we like we're, we're napping or something and we wake up and she's like, we're so tired. And it's, you know, it's likely because, yeah, we're, we're tired. Or it's that we woke up in the middle of like the sleep cycle and we just need more sleep. Our bodies have that sleep inertia, which is like the, your, your body's inertia into sleep or like wanting to go to sleep, wanting to continue sleeping. And that happens basically at the top of the, at the top of the, the sleep cycle in light sleep. So when people snooze, they they snooze for 10 minutes and their body's already like on the way, on its way down to another sleep cycle. And then when that snooze goes off boom, it alerts the brain, it, it forces it awake again and your brain gets all confused. And that's why snoozing is actually like counterproductive. Like I'm sure as well, all of us have felt like that morning when we just keep snoozing and we don't like, you just don't feel better. Like no matter how many times you snooze, unless you're just like, all right, you know, I'm we're going to turn off the alarm and sleep for however long we want. That's when you feel better. And you usually, you know, you usually wake up after an hour and a half after that because you're sleeping that full sleep cycle. But in terms of snoozing, it really, it really messes up our sleep. And this, you know, our, our alarm, it, it kind of promotes you to not snooze, you know, because it's waking you up in that light sleep. And and that's, that's the best time to to wake up, not only in your light sleep, but just at the first time the alarm goes off because this, the snoozing actually, it's just taking us backwards. Speaker 2 I am such a snoozer like repeat offender every day. It's so and I know, I know it's bad, but I keep doing it. Speaker 3 Yeah, you feel it right when you, you know, when you snooze a couple times, you're just like, you get up and in the end you're not like in the moment you want it, but in the end it's like it's just. Speaker 2 It's terrible, and it's become a habit that I like. I've known for years that it's bad. So yeah. So this is just another reminder for me to get it together. Speaker 1 I didn't even know it was a thing until I got married. And John, my husband did it all the time. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like your alarm went off, get up like I'm that morning person, right. And he would do it 6 times or four times or whatever. He's probably gonna listen to this podcast and be like, just you just raise your hand. Yeah, I've never done it before. And but I, you know, when I was in college and I played collegiate soccer and you know, you're up at 4:00 AM to then get to lifting at 4:30 and then you got practice. And so I was that person that always got up early, but then would go to bed earlier, right? So kind of shift it. But then when you're doing 2A days, you can't do that 'cause then you're at practice till 9:00 PM. So I was told to take a nap and I'd never done that before, but I was told by my sports psychiatrist to take a 28 minute nap. So now that you say this 30 minute thing, that makes sense. Like I never knew why, but I was like, OK, I'll set my alarm for 28 minutes. But that's such a cool feature that this device also does that too 'cause I think too, you know, even for moms who have just had a baby, right? And they're so just worn out just like maybe that, you know, 15 minutes is all they really need instead of maybe sometimes to that, you know, 3 hours. Speaker 3 Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, we, yeah, we limit it from 1 to 20 minutes. I think 20 minutes is even much you like you can you really get a benefit from like 15 minutes? And I guess maybe your coach said 28 minutes because not everyone can like not everyone is used to this and not everyone like can just lay on the couch and fall asleep. And so you might need some extra time to like wind down. But what I found is that like even 15 minutes, like the 1st 10 minutes, I'm kind of winding down. And then those next 5 minutes might is, is when I'm actually kind of in and out of this like conscious state. And that's when that brain shift is happening from from, you know, your brain waves being super active to then, then, then them coming down. So yeah, like I like I said it, I think it's super, it's one of like the most underrated things. It's just so it's, it's any, it's nothing like caffeine because caffeine, you know, it just kind of stops you from being tired. But this actually gives you rest and let's your body, you know, fully, fully like rest you could say, versus just kind of masking that tiredness. And so you're still going to be making mistakes. Maybe if you have caffeine because you're just you're masking it. But but what? Yeah, when you sleep like 15 minutes and then just you get like a soft reset essentially for your brain. I would say that. Speaker 1 How have you noticed her with the people that have used this device and getting their feedback? What about travel like the, the element of jet lag, right? Jet lag Going to a different time zone, going to different even countries as well. What data have you received for, for that? Because maybe 2 that could be something where you use it for people who are traveling a lot, right? Maybe that's the only time that they really need it. I'm just so curious what what you've received. Speaker 3 I mean, in terms of travel, like we have our product has like a little travel pouch and people can travel with it. I don't know if I've actually I guess talked to that many people about the traveling aspect, but I can speak for myself. Like from my own experience, I like, I feel like my sleep cycle and how I sleep is like super dialed in and I almost like know how much I need to sleep on a given night and when I can sleep less and when I can sleep more. And so the last time I traveled, I traveled overseas to Lithuania and Europe, I feel like I didn't even like feel that that jet lagged. And I, you know, maybe it's because I'm just so in tune with my sleep cycle and like, I know exactly like when I need to wake up. But then again, that goes back to like just being invested in that and, and, and waking up at the right time. But I think this could actually help like combat that change in jet lag. I mean, at at the least you get data from say, you know, you're traveling overseas. You can see on your app when you would be going to sleep based on the old time zone and based on like the old, you know, way. And so you can like then I guess use that data to adjust. That's one. That's one other cool thing about like the Tabo alarm clock is that alarm clocks now are just like they wake you up and that's it. And they wake you up at a bad time too. So that that's really it for alarm clocks. But now when you have a device like this that you can wear and you can track your you like when you set your alarm and when you woke up, you have that data. And so it doesn't become such like you can, you know, through data we can we can then track things we can see. So cool thing in our app is like we have a my Sleep page that shows all your alarm like stats and when you set it, when you woke up, how you felt when you woke up to that you can rate yourself. And what I've seen is that, you know, you can compare how your seven days is versus your 30 days versus your 60 or 90 days. I forgot which one it was, but yeah, I know it's it's a one week, one month and then three months. And you can essentially see then based on how we have this thing called the wake up score also, if it's just just related to how fast you wake up, very opposite from a sleep score. So we're not telling you how you slept, we're just telling you how fast you woke up. And, and we're going to be combining that with how like how you felt in the morning. And so over time, what happens is like, I can see that my three month base is like, yeah, I'm getting a 88 score and I'm going to bed at 1:00 AM or, or 12:00 AM or 12:00 AM and waking up at like 7. But then my seven days, I see that like my wake up is getting later. Like it's getting, it's like 2:00 AM and maybe 2:30. And then I can make the adjustment and be like, oh, so I'm actually, and my, and maybe my score would even be lower. And so then I can make an adjustment and be like, well, you know, I'm clearly going to bed later here. I'm, I'm going to start, you know, going to bed maybe earlier or back when, you know, back what's in line with my three month schedule or, or data that is, and, and just adjust it and then then see, maybe my, my mood is better or just how fast I'm waking up is better. So we definitely provide, you know, the, the tool for you to be able to travel and, and, and use the, the alarm clock more. So I guess it makes it more personal. And like you see your data and you can wake up, you know, based on your light sleep cycle. And then you can also see, yeah, like I said, the data of like what your past alarms were set in a different time zone, even if you shift time zones. So we definitely give you the tool for that. And, and that's where the name kind of comes from too. Tavo means or Tavo means yours in Lithuanian. So it's like a personal alarm clock. It's like your alarm clock. So it doesn't wake anyone else up but you, and it wakes you up in your lightest stage of sleep. Speaker 1 I love that there. Yeah, there's there's meanings behind everything with what you've created. And this is just, this is really, really fascinating. And I want to ask too, because like, I put my phone on airplane mode at night and I, you know, I know even too some of my clients, they don't even keep their phones in their bedroom. So can you still use this device even though your phone's like not on or Bluetoothed up or Yeah. Can you share more about those details of this device? Speaker 3 Yeah, of course. So we programmed it in a way that like the app sends the code to the device and at that point, once you set your alarm, you can turn off your phone, you can have it on airplane mode, it can not exist essentially, and you will still be woken up. And so this is really cool because we are now living in like a phone addicted society and you know, we're always scrolling before bed. The first thing we do when we when we wake up is we check the phone and what happens to our brains because of that? It's like we get so reactive, we get so reactive, we start responding to things immediately and like our brain, I don't know what goes on in the brain chemistry. Maybe you guys can speak more about that. But like we are so reactive in our days, just get like we just start reacting to things and we start like maybe on this like dopamine roll or something. But it versus versus waking up like without any phones or, or, or electronics in your room and just waking up to that natural, like that natural, but light buzz on your wrist in your most natural sleep stage and your phone being off. So you don't, you're not even kind of like reaching for it. And this takes a little bit, this takes a little bit, trust me to, to get used to because I'm always, I'm always also trying to like look at my phone. But the times that I, you know, the times that I do put my phone in a different room or, or turn it off, I always keep it on airplane mode regardless. But just waking up without electronics, kind of starting your day, maybe 30 minutes, maybe first hour, you don't touch electronics, you're just kind of in your natural state. You're drinking water or whatever your morning routine is like you're taking a shower and you're not your brain isn't like instantly starting to react to things. So I think that's like another hidden benefit of, of the table is that it kind of separates you from the, the electronics and, and the, and the RMF waves and the EMF and the blue light, you know, however bad and, and, you know, whether it's backed up by real science or pseudoscience, I think it's still, you know, we see it in our daily lives that it's not super healthy to do that. And, and I've, yeah, I've seen it in myself that like when I wake up to my phone checking my thing, maybe I see a bad e-mail, my mood and my just day just starts tanking because I start reacting, I start sending angry emails, whatever. But yeah, so I definitely prefer waking up and not looking at my phone. And I'm, I'm, yeah, like now with Tabo, I can do that every day. And I, I try to do that, you know, for at least 30 minutes. Sometimes I even get into this thing where like it's been so long until I turned off my airplane mode that I'm like, I don't want to turn it back on. I don't want to like connect to back to the the phone and start looking at it. But yeah, I think, I think that's a really also secret nice part about Tabo that you can do that. Speaker 1 I think too, you know, I was thinking, oh, what about heavy sleepers, right? But it makes sense because this device is actually tracking that. And so it's even if you are a really heavy sleeper, I mean, you could have the fire alarm go off and you wouldn't wake up, right? But this device is really specific, you know, for you. And also too, like I was thinking like I took as my foreign language in college American Sign Language. And so all my professors were deaf and they didn't use alarm clocks and what they used was a bed that vibrates. And so even with that it, you know, we used to joke in class that, oh, is it an earthquake or is it actually the alarm clock, right? Going off? But for this, it would be great too for that population, right, for that community as well, just to be specific, you know, and not not create that fight or flight response, right, which is so much like for us who are hearing would be that horrible iPhone alarm, right? I changed it. I changed mine to the crickets, but it still isn't natural, right? It's. It doesn't help so. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, just touching on the deep sleeper part. Yeah, I mean, it totally works because I feel like, like you said, people who are deep sleepers can sleep through in a lot of fire alarm and that's because they have. I feel like I don't know if this is like. But my theory is that they've hardened up so much that they hate their alarm clock so much and that noise, and it's because it's forcing them awake so much. They're just like, Nope, I'm not going to even listen to this. I'm tuned it out somehow and I'm not going to get up to it. So it's like, because it's forcing you awake, that's why you're a deep sleeper is because maybe you're just more in tune with your sleep cycle and your body needs that sleep. And maybe, you know, when you're waking up to a regular alarm, you can't wake up to it because it's not waking you up at a time where you're naturally awake. And so with this, you know, it, it, it would work different or it definitely works differently because because you are in that light sleep and it's, you know, your body's not saying, don't bother me. I'm still sleeping. It's saying, oh, OK, I'm awake. I recognize this and let me wake up. And, and yeah, we've had some, we've had some experience and, and some testers with, with some deaf like patience or hard of hearing. And, and yeah, like they, they're, as far as I know it like they use those bed shakers. And I don't know, some people put like their phone under their pillow and make it vibrate. I've heard that as well. But this is, you know, this is really nice because it just vibrates on, on the wrist. And actually, I remember an experience when I was talking to someone at the gym and they were hard of hearing or deaf, like they could, they couldn't speak. And I was showing them this alarm and I was like typing on my phone and trying to communicate with them because I didn't know sign language. And I was just asking them how do they use their, how do they wake up? And I was kind of just showing him my website and, and he was, he was like, yeah, this is so cool. Like I need like, I want this, I need this. And we're just like using my notes app to like communicate, which is weird, but I do remember that. And I was like, this would be really, really cool for that whole population. And, and, you know, just just having a practical, natural solution that, you know, you don't have to stick your phone on your bed or you don't have to have a mattress shaker that's not only going to wake, you know, you up, but going to wake up your partner, whoever else is sleeping with you. So like go, yeah, going back to like the, the, your part of it, of your alarm clock. And I think that's how we're different than the sunrise alarm clocks too. It's like sunrise alarm clocks. They, you know, they're, they wake up, they, they shine the light, they gradually get brighter, brighter and they, they can wake up, you know, not only you, but everyone else in the room. But what I think what really makes how different it is that that is that it is kind of a personal alarm clock and it only is going to wake you up and or whoever is using it and let others keep sleeping, which is we don't want to disturb others sleep either. Speaker 1 Yeah, I've went to go and recommend those light alarm clocks too, but so many of them are wired by Bluetooth or have EMF's and they're connected to, you know, a certain Spotify playlist as well. And so just there's all this electronics and all this waving off and it's like, well, that's counterproductive too, to sleep. So it just seems as though this device is, it just seems natural. It just seems connected to you and hence the name, right? Which is really, really cool. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. And so sunrise arm clocks are good and you know, they work for for many people, but for deep sleepers, it might be a bit of a trouble for them to use the sunrise arm clock and wake up because I don't know personally, I would, I can sleep through any kind of light, like light doesn't really wake me up. So it might help to wake you up. But at the end of the day, like if you need to get up for a or an airport for a flight, I don't know if you would trust the the light alarm to necessarily wake you up. You know, it could help. I think like I've that we definitely have some people who pair those things, those two things, the tabo and the light alarm just cuz it's like even more natural, like you're getting that almost mimic sunlight or like sunrise, which is I think really cool. But I wouldn't totally rely on like a silent or a light alarm. And we don't have any integrations yet, but I think that's something that we might, I don't know, we we might be exploring potentially. I think it's really cool. You know the I think it's really cool concept. Speaker 2 I was going to say like no, that's, that's completely fair with like the sunlight too, because I know for me personally, like on the days that I don't need to set an alarm and I can wake up naturally with, without anything, yeah, I'll like sleep way past sunrise, you know. So that's totally fair that that might, yeah, that might not work for everyone. Although, yeah, our circadian rhythm is based on, you know, sunrise and sun down. But I think we're just so out of sync that that's not happening anymore. Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, especially like doctors, like I was saying, like the doctors wake up at 4:00 AM, like, you know, very, very unnatural. And like I guess now in our modern world, we have to have a solution that can help us wake up better, unnaturally, but but still naturally. Speaker 1 Is your device kind of adjustable so that children can use it too? Like is that a population too that can implement this or is it just kind of really targeted for adults? Speaker 3 No 100% anyone can use it. I think the the wristband itself. I mean this is the wristband. I guess I'm just showing it on video, but it can get as small as like, you know, your two fingers. So the the size of it is definitely fitting for for children and kids. I think school like for for people who go to school, like I always remember like waking up in the morning at 6:30 or whatever it was when we had to go to school and I thought it was like too early, like way too early for people to waking up and go to school. I think this would really work with that. And I have like I would really want kind of to, to even maybe explore some like partnerships or just get into the hands of more kids. We, you know, we have, I guess plans or just think we've thought about the idea of, of making one for just for kids. And yeah, so I'd like to answer your question. It would work for anyone who, you know, has a is, is a human and has a human sleep cycle. And there is a, it's called Lewy body dementia, but people actually move in the REM sleep. And so, and that's the the only case that it wouldn't work because I mean, it's a very rare thing to have. But I know when people have that, they move in the REM sleep and they act out in their dreams. And so it could actually just not wake them up at all. But that's a very, very rare case. And that's the only case that I would say, you know, probably definitely seek like medical attention, but you know, at that point you already know that you need to do that so. Speaker 2 Where can people buy the Tabo alarm clock? Speaker 3 Tavo, TAVO, sleep.com, that's our website and that's where they can buy it. Speaker 2 Awesome, and you guys have an Instagram too, right Tabo sleep. Speaker 3 Yes, we have an Instagram at Tabo Sleep. We have all our video, a bunch of videos on there featuring Doctor Justina with the acupressure mat. But yeah, that's our Instagram is our main ours, like kind of our second website. That's where we post all our videos. I think it's relatively informative. And also, yeah, if the other products are also on our website like this, the Sami Mad and and nasal strips and mouth tape, those are also on tawasleep.com. Speaker 2 Nice. Yeah. Just making sure that people know where they can reach you or where they can find some of these products. And then, yeah, thank you so much for being on the show for for sharing your story, for answering all these questions. Last thoughts I just want to know if there's any last thoughts or things that you have left that you would like to share with the rest of our audience. Speaker 3 Oh, there's so much I could. I feel like it would keep going for hours. There's so much. I mean, yeah, like the breathing aspect of just having better breathing during sleep. I think that's something I recently learned about that was a completely new thing to me, like the fact that I am a natural mouth breather. And when we do breathe through our mouth at night, we're getting less oxygen and we're essentially recovering less. And so when I personally started using mouth tape, my I, I, I was waking up like the first night I was like, Oh, this is OK. Like I feel good. Second night I was like, all right, I'm feeling great. And then by the third or fourth night I was like, this, this is a coincidence or what? Like I, I couldn't believe that it was working well, so, so well for me. And maybe it's because like I have been a mouth breather and see with my mouth open, but I think that was really cool for me. And, and I just, I think that's something that we're getting more aware of as as a society, but like just breathing and how much breathing, the simplest thing that of all can help us just live a better life, sleep better if we know how to properly breathe, if we know how to properly like use that during the day. I think that's really cool. And, and I think I like how these products, the mouth tip and nose strips, they can almost train you as well to be breathing more so through your nose and not through your mouth at night. I think that's really cool. And that's just, I don't know, that's just been a recent discovery of mine. But yeah, no, this was super, super exciting and great. Like I said, maybe we'll just have to have to do another one and continue this podcast. Cuz I feel like we could talk for hours on, on sleep on all like the holistic and how our innate bodies just they're, they're, you know, they're smart, they're so intelligent. And we just have to listen to our bodies a little bit more. And when it comes to sleep, like that's one area where you can really listen to your body more. And, you know, first, maybe not even use an alarm clock and just catch up on that good sleep that you need. And then moving forward, you know, maybe adjust, adjusting, you know, maybe using a smart alarm, maybe adjusting. I know there's new, this new sleep term called sleep maxing where you're, you're stacking all like the, the, the good sleep habits essentially. But yeah, I think sleep is, you know, it's a very much a foundation of our, of our life, like our, of our health more so every Organism, as far as I know, needs to sleep and is it's programmed into them that they need to sleep. And I guess yeah, that's just that's one way that we can become more aware of our bodies. Obviously waking up, you know, at the correct time and and yeah, just having the ability or just listening to our bodies more. I think it's super useful and super underrated. And I think that's what if in the end ties us in together more with ourselves. We understand each other, our health, our health more. And I think just having that awareness and listening to your body more and not thinking it's like a machine, you know, more. So like, like, I think you talked about this in the other podcast, like a spiritual and, and vessel and that, you know, that that connection happens when we do listen to our bodies, when we are a little bit more internal when we look at those, those things, maybe that our body is telling us that I'm waking up tired. OK, well, that that means maybe I have to, you know, shift something in my sleep schedule. And like I said, sleep is a is a very big thing. It's very ingrained in our lives. So like, don't try to do everything at once. Don't try to like start going to bed at 7:00 PM if you've been going to bed at 1:00 AM, but just take little steps, little steps, you know, 5 minutes earlier, go to bed. I think that's great tips of just doing things, you know, a little bit at a time, like putting your phone away maybe 30 minutes before bed or maybe maybe just starting small, like 10 minutes before bed, which is, which is a part of the Kaizen way, which is the kind of the, the Kaizen ways of Japanese philosophy. That is more so it's, it started in America, but then it kind of got involved into Japan, but it's essentially taking small, small steps so you that, so you don't activate your fear response and your amygdala. And so you're not like defeated by not hitting a goal. Like if I'm tomorrow, I'm like, all right, I'm going to go to sleep at 7:00 AM or, or 7:00 PM instead of 12 AM and I'm going to get good sleep. Well, realistically, that's gonna be really kind of tough for me. Maybe I'll do it once, but then maybe like I won't do it like after five days. So starting small, like they're taking those small steps of, you know, maybe fixing your wake up, then maybe, I don't know, fixing when you go to bed, the tools you use, anti earplugs, mouth tape, you know, all that, like little steps, I think can lead to big results if if done consistently. And I think that's, you know, if if anything is taken away from this podcast, like I, I think that the, that, that is what I like. What I would, maybe you'd just recommend or suggest if anyone is looking to better their sleep or if anyone feels like, you know, they're waking up too groggy. I I really like that approach. But but yeah, no, thank, thank you for having me. This was such a great conversation. I really love what you guys do. I really think you guys are just pioneering like this, you know, all these health topics and, and just talking about healing and holistic and, and holistic healing and are just innate natural abilities of, of our bodies healing ourselves. So like, I really, really value what you guys do. And I was really, really excited to be on this podcast. And, you know, I hope to to see this grow into thousands and thousands of followers and people and you guys continuing to awaken more people of like how the natural body works and how important that really is to just be in touch with that. So I really, really appreciate you guys having me on and, and thanks. Speaker 2 Thank you so, so much. That was very kind of you and we're so happy to have you on too. And, and, and listen to all the ways that you're trying to help. I think we definitely can have you on for like 10 more podcasts about about breathing and, and sleep and healing and recovery and why all that is so important. But this will have to do for now. So thank you so so much. Speaker 3 OK. Thank you so much guys. Speaker 1 Thank you. This has been such a blessing and I hope more people check out your website. As you were talking, I was also looking and just even to reading these people's reviews about, you know, just again, having more energy. And that's one of the things that probably Doctor Justine and I hear all the time is like people having low energy and we forget about the element of sleep, rest. And those are two essential determinants, right? Rest, rejuvenation, that's vitamin R that no one ever talks about, right? So just to know that, you know, half of our life we literally spend sleeping and resting. Yep. And no one's really created something essentially that's so specific like this to help enhance your sleep. And I was just also too, I looked at my sleep from last night. Guess when my alarm went off REM sleep, my four, I was about to enter my 4th 1. So it's just one of those things are Dang, I wish that I, yeah, wish I would have woken up literally 10 minutes earlier. So thank you for now inspiring me to definitely look into this for myself as well as the people I work with. So thank you. Speaker 3 Of course, of course. Well, thank you guys so much. Yeah, it was really a pleasure.