Tara Stoinski Returns (primatologist)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dax Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hi. And today we have returning primatologist, Tara Stoinski. She is the CEO and Chief Scientific Officer of the Diane Fossey Gorilla Fund. And she worked closely on this incredible documentary that I saw, really importantly by the director of My Octopus Teacher and Chimp Empire. Yeah. Maybe my favorite animal doc I've ever seen. And this new documentary is called A Gorilla Story. And there's the most insane footage in it. What they captured over these couple of years they were filming is incredible. It's so good. She's so knowledgeable. And, you know, these are highly endangered, beautiful treasures on planet Earth. So if you're inclined, please go to the Diane Fossey Gorilla Fund and support that. Please enjoy Tara Stoinski. We get support from Quince. I have to say I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. 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Cancel any time. Now, let's get into it. Let's get into today's episode. He's an armchair expert. How are you? Hi, Monica. Nice to meet you. In person. Yes, in person. Hi, welcome. Thank you so much. Yes. So excited to have you. Thrilled to be here in this amazing place. Amazing space. Where did you travel from? Atlanta. What if you said Rwanda? No, no, Rwanda. I was there a couple weeks ago, but no, came from Atlanta this time. What part of Atlanta? Do you know Monica's in Atlanta? Yes, we discussed it last time. I'm from outside Philly, but I've been in Atlanta for 30 plus years. You sound like Monica's mom. Really? Yes. You don't hear it? Oh my God, I don't hear it. You gotta listen for it. I got some combination of like the Philly Atlanta accent or something. Oh my gosh. I don't hear it at all. But you know, you can't like hear your mom. No. Your mom's just a mom. Your mom's not an entity. She's just, yeah, yeah. You can't even hear yourself. I can remember back in the days of answering machines. Yes. One time like playing an answering machine and there was this person like, hey, it was like for my husband, boyfriend at the time probably. And they're like, hey honey, how you doing? Wondering what you're doing later. I'm like, who is this woman calling my head with me? Oh my God. I totally didn't recognize my own voice. Oh my God, that's funny. I don't know if you're like this. I can't go back and listen to anything I've done. I went and listened to our last podcast so I wouldn't like repeat myself, but it was painful for me. And then I was like, oh, there's a transcript. I could just read it and not have to listen to myself. We have to. We have to get used to it at some point. I started doing that. I listened to like a third of it. So we wouldn't repeat ourselves. It was Zoom, but I was like, I didn't like Zoom. I mean, as much as it was lovely. It's so different. It's so different. I'm speaking in that one as if you are on the other end of a soup can and a string. I'm like, ah, I know. No, like I'm shouting at Forterra. Yes. And I was like, I can't do this. And who cares if I repeat myself? Yeah, because maybe some people who haven't heard the first one need some background. So, okay, so you're in Atlanta. Are you in a suburb by Miami? No, I am just east of downtown. So Grant Park, like right near the zoo. You're in a cooler area. It's great because I'm super convenient to the airport, which is where I feel like I spend a lot of my time. A lot of your time. Yeah. How old are your daughters now? So my daughters now are 19 and 17. Oh, my Lord. So I have one in college. She's a sophomore in college. And the other one, we are deciding in the next, or she's deciding in the next few weeks where she'll be at college. May I suggest? That's great tuition. She got into Georgia, which we were thrilled about. It's so fun. Got into tech. Less fun. Yeah. Better school? Probably considered better. It's very science-y. In certain areas. Yeah. Like engineering. Mainly engineering. We'll give it engineering. I mean, I'm a tech grad. Not marketing. Like, have to go for tech. But she, from the start, has been like, I really want to go out of state. With our whole family being from the Northeast. So I don't think she's going to end up in Georgia. Okay. Well. Well, good for her. No. And she's a homebody, too. She's going to end up back there. So we'll see. And how does the 19-year-old like college? Oh, my God. So she is a sophomore at Duke and has drunk the Duke Kool-Aid. She loves it. I've gotten really into Duke basketball now. Uh-huh. And I've been surprised at how heartbroken. I have been when they didn't end up going all the way. And I already, I'm a big fan of the Philadelphia Eagles. So I feel like I already have my heartbreak, even though we did win the Super Bowl recently. I'm like, I can't take on another stress team. Like, I paced the house. I had to go for a walk after this game. And at halftime, she was like, if we win the whole thing. So they lost. They didn't make it to the Final Four this year. They were number one ranking team. Ouch. So she's texting me like, I'm going to get a tattoo if they win. Oh, wow. And I saw she put it on Instagram. And then she went, well, that didn't age. That didn't age very well. Also for you, built-in win-win. Yeah. Either they win and you're delighted, or they lose and your daughter doesn't get that tattoo. Yes, that's very true. I think that's very true. You could enter that one like very, I'm going to win either way. Not to blame her, but she might have caused it. Oh, you think she did? She's not meant to have that tattoo on her. We have a lot of superstitions in our house. Like, we dress our dogs for all the Eagles games. They wear Eagles gear. And then if they're not winning, they have to switch jerseys. To see, yeah. It's fun to see. It's fun to care. Yeah, it is. You have several alma maters. I do. Yeah. Which are they? So I did my undergrad degree at Tufts University in Boston. Did a master's in biology at University of Oxford in England. And then did my PhD at Georgia Tech. You're not even pushing for that, even though you. I don't think it's the right school for her. She's not interested in science. And the other thing is her three closest friends are all going there. Yeah. And I'm really proud of her. She really kind of wants to break out and do something new. And that's been something she's been saying for a couple years. So, I mean, I would love her to go to Tech. It's two miles from my house. I told her, I'm like, I never go to Tech's campus. I'm not going to come and bug you. But you can come home if you want. You can visit the dogs. But I'm very proud of her for wanting to go off and have some independence. Tech is in the city. It's not. Tell me more. It's in the city. If she wants to have best of both worlds, she can just go to Athens. She's an hour away and some change. I know. And it's so fun. I don't know the last time you drove from Athens to Atlanta, but I think that's a lot of change. What do you mean change? Hour and change. I think there's. No, it's really close, actually. Yeah? Yeah. From my parents' house to Athens, it's like an hour and ten minutes. Well, but to Atlanta proper. I just went. I just gave a lecture up there a couple weeks ago. And yeah, it's not that bad. I mean, you go through cow country. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you go through the country to get up there. Yeah, you see a lot. Athens proper is really cute. It's so cute. And your husband, was he very academic? He was a lawyer. No one's heading in that direction. The older one, for sure. Oh, yeah. She's a great arguer. She'll be fabulous at it. Oh, great. Yeah. She's interested, I think, also in. International law, diplomacy, which you always wonder, like, what your kids see, what maps onto them. And neither of them want to do science, per se, but they've spent their whole childhoods going to Rwanda with me. And so I think that part of it she really likes. She's going to do a semester in Madrid in the fall. And so I could see her heading in that direction, not like straight up corporate law or something. So back to what does your normal yearly schedule look like? Yeah, I am usually in Rwanda about once a quarter. And that has been kind of dictated by my kids. Because I've been a single mom since they were six and four. So during the school year, I try not to be gone for more than three weeks at a time. In Rwanda, I do a lot of travel in the U.S. as well for conferences or meet with donors. And then in the summers, we go for a longer period of time because they would come with me. So we'd be there for six weeks or so. So we have like a communal house. It's like being in college again. Sometimes we have 12 to 15 people living in it. Three bathrooms. So it's very interesting. Especially when you get the teenage girls in there as well. But when they were little, they would stay home. They would play in the garden. 'cause they can't go to see the gorillas. We're not like in the forest proper. We're outside the forest. What's the age limit, curious? Fifteen. Because I was watching with my daughters last night, the doc, and I have been telling our oldest daughter, who's very interested in going to Africa, I've been telling her since she was three, when you're 16, when you're 16, as I was watching, I was like, I'm not sure if you're allowed at 16, but this is delightful. So 15 and up, you can go. Yeah, so they both have now gone just in the last few years to see the gorillas. There was no sneaky snake? No, no sneaky snake. She respects the rules. Can you imagine traveling all the way to Rwanda as a little kid and spending 10 years there and not seeing the gorillas? I mean, they must have been like, let's go. Let's go. And they've been on safari, so they got to see the other stuff. But the gorillas themselves, yeah, they just saw for the first time recently. So they're like in the garden in there? Yeah, they're just hanging out. Well, the thing is, like, particularly in the summertime, like, a lot of researchers come over. So they've got friends from all over the country. They would see the same people again. Sometimes people bring their kids. Okay, great. So they had like a little cohort of folks that they would hang out with. And then starting in high school, my older daughter's like, uh. Can I go to summer camp instead? Yeah. The younger one, though, last summer was probably her last summer, and she was sad. She really loves it there. Yeah. So it's just comfort zone for her. It's something she's familiar with. If the pizza place closes that she goes to, we have two pizza places in town. Of course, two girls. One likes one pizza place. The other likes the other pizza place. I'm so comforted to hear that. Right. I will say my younger daughter, she's a peacemaker. She very much is my husband's personality. Okay. So she's a peacemaker. So if the older one really wants something, she's like, fine. Okay. This is a sad question to ask, but it's very obvious to me that I'm thinking about it now. So our younger daughter, to me, is like a carbon copy of my wife. I mean, they're so similar. It's crazy. And because of that, there's been a lot of interesting things. One, just being, oh, weird. I get to kind of parent a younger version of my wife. Yeah. And I want to give her everything I think my wife deserved. Right. There's just a lot of weird things in the mix. So because your husband's past. Yeah. Does that, do you think, compound that where it's like she's also the last living thing you can touch that's still him in that way? In a lot of ways. And it's funny. One of the things, she's super empathetic. And she doesn't want to see anyone get hurt, doesn't want to see any animals get hurt. I lead with my head, and so does my older daughter. And she very much leads with her heart. And my husband led with his heart. And it used to frustrate me because, like, I want to know what's happening in the news. I want to know what's happening in the world. And he would be like, Tara, I don't. I don't want to watch it. And it would irritate me because I'm like, how do you not want to know what's going on? But it physically hurt him. And, you know, this big six-foot-four guy, I didn't get that. Yes. But now I see it. I can see it in my little one. And I'm like, oh, this is how you're wired. And this really does pain you to see others in distress. She has a different nervous system. Yeah, completely. Yes, and he did. I feel like I understand him better in some ways getting to parent her. This is a great transition. So in the documentary, there's all kinds of groups. The gruesome moments. I'm imagining I'm looking at it like you. I'm like, yeah, and also this is how it works. Like, let's just start with this is how it works. So there's going to be a lot of gnarliness along the way. I even said to them beforehand, anticipate this could happen. And Fantasite is likely to follow this event we just saw. Like, just buckle up while we're watching that this could happen. But, okay, let's start with there was a great doc. It took six years to make. It's called The Gorilla Story. Told by David. David Attenborough. So how did you get brought in to work with this team to do this? It was great. It was during COVID. I can still remember, like, sitting, you know, in my living room. And we were connected to Silverback Films, which is a funny name for the film company because of the Silverback Gorillas. And we got on the phone with them, and they were like, what's happening with the gorillas? What would make a good story? And I was with a colleague of mine, Veronica Vecelio, who is kind of like the modern-day Diane Fossey. She's lived in Rwanda for 20 years, knows these gorillas in and out. She doesn't go home to anywhere? She's full-time there? Yeah, she's full-time there. She's from Rome originally. She's one of our two non-Rwandan staff that are based there. So we're like, really the story of Pablo's group. It's such a phenomenal group. It broke every record. There's just such an amazing story that's never been told. So that's what we kind of pitched to them. And then it worked out so well that the executive producer of the film actually had worked with David Attenborough for a number of years. So he went back to him, and then there's this iconic scene where when David went to Rwanda in 1916, 1978, I think, he was there to do a story about the opposable thumb. So this very technical, anatomical story. He thought he was going to be watching from afar. They're going to get some close-ups of the opposable thumb. And he's sitting there, and all of a sudden, this three-year-old little fluffball comes and just sits in his lap. Oh, my God. And he's just like laying all over him. And David's laying on his back, and like he's laughing. And Pablo's just kind of squirming around. Pablo is the gorilla? Yeah, little boy gorilla. How old was he? He was three. It's the dream interaction. You're not supposed to have it, but boy, what a dream. And we don't anymore, right? Like that was back in the day when we didn't realize how susceptible they were to our illnesses. So now we try and stay a distance from them. But, yeah, I mean, he describes it as probably the most iconic moment in his history of filmmaking. And he's turning 100 next month. Wow. Well, okay, great. So that's something I wanted to address right away. So we're watching, and I'm taking notes as we watch, but I missed what year. That footage was from Life on Earth, one of his docs. And my daughter says, oh, it was 50 years ago. But I'm watching him present day be interviewed about this project. And I'm like, no, I bet it had to be 30 years ago because he looks like he's maybe 85. And yet next month he turns 100. That's wild. And, Monica, he's speaking so articulately about this experience. And so just vibrant and alert. I'm like, this dude might see 130. Right, exactly. I hope. But, I mean, it's amazing, Monica, because he took journals. And so he has the whole description. He has the whole description of getting to meet the gorillas, of getting to meet Pablo. So to get him then to come on and narrate the story, because his voice is also just so iconic, right? Unfortunately, he didn't get out to be there with the filming. And that group is really hard to film. So what ended up happening was he did that series. And then that was group five at the time. So it was one of the original groups that Diane Fossey started studying. And then in 1993, the silverback of that group died and the group split. It went into Shinda's group. And Pablo's group. And so Pablo actually formed his own group. He became a big silverback. Alpha. At that point, he was 18. So he was like, I'm taking all of these individuals and formed his own group. Pablo's been dead since 2008, but that group is still called Pablo's group. I imagine it's kind of like when you get picked for, like, kickball. Okay. You know, there's two captains. It's like, I'll take you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like that. The ones that took Pablo were smart. Yeah. Well, Pablo picked. Yeah. And then some of them probably snuck over. Okay, I was going to say, how does that work? Is it just seamless or they fight over it? Well, it's a big plot point in this doc as the story unfolds. But what's really unique about Pablo's group is that he, when challenged by the upcoming Alpha Male, decided to form a partnership instead of get dethroned, which was really unique. Yeah. We haven't seen that many of these dominance transfers for one male to the other. And we actually didn't get to observe that one because it happened 94-95, which was really unique. It was right at the height of the genocide in Rwanda. So we weren't in the forest or the teams weren't in the forest every day like we are normally. So when they sort of came back and could observe the group, Cansby had taken over dominance. But Pablo stayed in the group. The two of them were very aligned. And the support that they gave each other let this group grow to 65 animals, which an average gorilla family is 10 individuals. So way, way bigger. The biggest group of gorillas ever recorded anywhere. And it's definitely come down in size since then. But it just achieved. It achieved all of these amazing records. Because of this partnership. Yeah, because of this partnership. Also, at the time he was recording that original doc, he said of all the animals he had ever interacted with, this was by far when you look in a gorilla's eyes, the thing he felt like there was the most humanness, for lack of a better word, of any animal he'd ever. And at that point, he had looked every animal in the eyes, presumably. And at the time there was 250? In that area. We call it the Virunga area. So it's three countries. Congo, Rwanda, Uganda, they were down to 250. And so it's a thousand-ish today? It is, there's 600 in that population. And then there's another population that at the time he was there actually wasn't being studied. They're in Uganda and there's 400. So across the two, there's a thousand. But where he was, it's gone from 250 to 600, which is great. But it's taken 40 plus years to do that. And that's just the Highland or all? Just mountain gorillas. Okay, so right away, I have a question about having such a tiny genetic pool. And I'm curious, I feel like either we're overly scared of inbreeding or gorillas are unique, what is going on? Why aren't we seeing like a ton of genetic defects and whatnot in such a small gene pool? That's a great question. And we do know that they're inbred. Like when we go to do paternity work, we have to get a lot more genetic information to be able to figure out who the dad is than you would in a population that maybe hadn't had so much inbreeding. And we do see things like we see webbing between their fingers and their toes. Sometimes. They have, we call them walleyes, where their eyes don't line up in the center. Ooby is cross-eyed as a motherfucker. We're like, he's so cute, but we're going like, where am I? Well, I mean, he is. And that's because of it. Yeah, we think it's probably because of the inbreeding. So I think the worry is, of course, if you have a disease that enters into the population and when animals don't have a lot of genetic diversity and you only have a thousand of them, it could be really devastating. And what about the problem of kind of recessive disorders? Yeah, other than those things we have. haven't seen too much of that. The good news is, Over the past decade or so, when I started working in that park, there were seven families of gorillas. That was in the early 2000s. Now there's 24 families of gorillas. Oh, really? Yes. They were living in kind of bigger groups, and those groups are fissioning. But what it means is that more males, because, you know, there's a dominant male in each of those groups, more males are getting to breed. So you're sort of spreading out the genetics a little bit more than when you had them living in kind of these super groups of 65 animals. Right. And the other males in those groups aren't allowed to breed. They do. They have to, like, sneak it in. Sneaky, sneaky. Yeah, sneaky, sneaky. And actually, what's really interesting, so Cansby and Titus, another male that a movie was made out of, they remained dominant in their group. But for the last eight years, they didn't actually sire offspring. Again, so it went Pablo to Cansby, Cansby to Gitterasi, and that's kind of where the modern-day story starts. In this movie, Gitterasi is the dominant male. And he was siring all the offspring for the last five, six, seven years of Cansby's life. But Cansby was totally still dominant. The elder statesman was very well respected. The females really bonded around him. I think one of the things this movie shows and we see is that we think a lot about the males and gorillas because they have all that size and strength. But alliances, and particularly who the females like and who they follow and who they support, plays a much bigger role in gorilla society than I think we initially realized 40 years ago. Wow, interesting. It's about the ladies. Beautifully documented in this. So, yeah, we meet. Pronounce his name again. It's so hard for me. Gitterasi. Gitterasi. I know. And these are actually the easy Kinyarwanda names. Some of them are like 27 letters long. We were really lucky. All the main characters had relatively easy names in this film. I was so happy. Okay, so when we start the doc, Gitterasi is the silverback of this group. Yep. And there are how many members? 18. 18. So it's pretty good size. It's good size, but think about it. It went from 65 all the way down to 18. I think the smallest it ever was was 17. It's still almost twice enormous. It's a normal gorilla family, but it's much smaller than what we were used to. Okay, so, and then we meet Abuzu. And Monica, Abuzu, immediately you're like, oh, shit. He is a male that's coming into his size, and he is at a phase where he's going to make a run for it. And it's just so obvious for a long time before it happens. The look on his face at all times is mad doggy. He's mad dogging everybody he looks at. He looks so angry and grumpy. I don't know what's going on biochemically. He's probably peak testosterone. Exactly. He's an 18-year-old male, so he's just got hormones going everywhere, and when's it going to be my chance? And now what's really heartbreaking is there's another male, and how old is he? He was probably around 13 when we started filming. Okay, so five years younger, still a big male, but not as big as Abuzu. And Abuzu, to show his strength and prowess, starts bullying. I hate him. By the way, you watch. I've watched Chim Empire. Yeah. Remember the whole arc of you hate that dominant male, and then you realize, like, oh, he's so lonely. I know, but I still. And then he's, everyone wants to kill him, and then he's got to go first in a band, and you start going, like, no, that's a shit job. I know, but. It is a shit job. It's a shit job. Yes. The adolescents are having fun. The ladies are having fun. He doesn't have to take that job. He has to, or he won't reproduce. He's deciding to take that job. Yeah, I think Pablo was like, hey, man, I'm going to let Canspy take a lot of his time. I'm going to let him take a lot of the stress, and I'm going to support him and be around and reap all the benefits. Yeah, you could play a different game. But maybe take a little bit of the pressure off, yeah. Pablo's leading with charisma, like a human. You can see charisma in Pablo's face. There's a line in the movie that's like, guerrilla males don't lead by strength alone, and that is so true. Obviously, you need to have a certain size and strength, and part of the reason that Abuzu was able to take over was that Gitarasi was sick. And so he had a few days where he wasn't well. He was kind of staying behind the group, and those males are smart, right? And Abuzu saw that. And he went in and took advantage of that. What do they do? It's gnarly. And again, back to Mfuru. Mfura? Mfura. Mfura. Good luck, Dax. Mfura. Again. He's taken a couple from Abuzu before Abuzu challenges Gitarasi. So his whole bottom of his chin is just sliced open. The full top of his head where you can see his skull is just wide open from the incisors. So it's just these two 400-pound gorillas just kind of. They're not wrestling, but there's tons of biting going on. And they captured it. That was the crazy thing. So just as a funny aside, when we first got on the call with these folks, so the director was the director of Chimp Empire. That footage is, that's come out since you and I spoke. Yes, it has. And I don't know if you saw, but like two days ago. There's a big war going on. Yeah, that's the war. Oh, it is. Eight years. Eight years this war. 300 chimps are fighting. There's already 20 dead, I think. It's been an eight-year war. It's crazy. But so they had filmed chimps, the executive producer, had worked on Disney Nature and filmed Chimpanzee Movie. And so it was very funny because one of the first things they said to us, and you have to imagine this in a lovely British accent, which I'll pretend to do, but I can't really do. Tara, do gorillas actually do enough to make an entire film about them? Veronica and I are on the phone and we're like, what? How can you say that to gorilla people? Yeah, you're like, this is our whole life. But you're kind of right. They are like big cows in a way, right? Like they eat, they sleep. So they show up to film and literally within like two days, two days of filming, this dominant shift starts to happen. Wow. Do you think these guys are starting it? What's his name, Reed, the director? James Reed. James Reed. That's a good question. Yeah. Says he's getting pretty lucky. He shows up with the chimps and now we see this 100 on 100 troop fight. But they say this fission that's happening, I was just reading about it this morning, this fission that's happening in the chimps, when a community fully splits, they think is about a one in every 500 year event. No. I guess when they look at the genetics. What? It's crazy. Are they documenting that? Yes. So they kind of came in sort of in the middle of it. I don't know when they filmed Chimp Empire exactly, but it was already going on when they started filming. There had been the split and it was gaining momentum, but it was a smaller group and then they were starting to challenge the main group. What's crazy to me about that is that, so the way that chimps live, they have what they call a community and the whole community is sort of never together. So they all associate in this community, but today I'm hanging out with you, tomorrow you're with Kristen and I'm with Dax. And then the next day, all four of us are hanging out. And then eventually this community splits and now the Western side is coming back to kill their former community members. Oh my God, why? And this had only been documented once before with Jane Goodall, but at the time with Jane Goodall, she had provisioned the chimps so that they would get used to her. So she had kind of like put bananas out so that they would get used to her presence. And so there was a lot of criticism. Oh, you caused all this aggression by putting this high value resource in the middle. So there was some skepticism about whether this was like really natural. But this is completely natural. Why? Just no one knows? No one really knows, yeah. What's really interesting and cool about gorillas is we've been able to show that it's not like that at all. So we have families that fission and when they come back together, they can be aggressive, particularly like if they're in their most prized part of their range, but for the most part, they'll come together, they'll play, they'll interact with each other. And this can be 10 years after a split. So a lot of the composition has changed. And so I think chimps, chimps are really interesting for looking at more of the warfare side of humans and gorillas maybe more for this kind of multi-level society where you can maintain relationships, even if it's not in your core family group that you're with on a day-to-day basis. We could also get into, there's a lot of explanations for that. A, the groups are much, much bigger for chimps, right? They're like hundred member groups. They have a much different mating strategy, right? Where all the males are competing with each other, hence the enormous testicles we talked about last time. And she said, you can't even find a gorilla's testicles. Yeah, you can't find them. If we don't see the genitalia of a baby gorilla right after it's born, because they're so fuzzy, we generally oftentimes don't know until they reach 10 or 11, if it's a male. Because males and females are the same exact size in gorillas until eight, and then their growth charts really diverge. So we have had these females that were really interested in mating when they were like 11, 12, and then suddenly we're like, oh, 'cause they're not females, they're males. So that's how difficult it is. They also go through one of the biggest growths, from birth, right? So they're born at four pounds and become 450. That'd be like humans becoming 800 pounds. It's crazy. Oh my God. So yeah, the gorillas showed up. We were worried, are they gonna do a lot? And I think at the time they thought they might use a lot of archival footage and then intersperse it with the modern day. And then they got so much. I mean, it's the most that gorillas have ever been filmed. I think they had 250 filming days. But Rwanda's really strict about time spent with the gorillas to protect the gorillas. So that 250 days was one hour a day. At a time. Oh my God. One hour at a time. So to be there and be lucky enough to get these moments on film is just crazy. Almost impossible. Yeah, and these gorillas, the filmmakers don't stay in the forest. So they're in and out. They have one of the highest elevation ranges. So they're climbing three to 4,000 feet a day with their equipment to get to the gorillas, filming them coming back out. So back to this story. So Mbuzu has really bullied Mfura a bunch of times. And it's really, really sad. And as he gets bullied more, he starts getting excluded more. Oh no. From the group. He had this one Ubi, little infant. I don't know, infant? Yeah, he was two. He was infant. Was his buddy and they played. And he was playing and the mom came over and basically looked at him and was like, "You can't play with the baby anymore." And he knew. No, this is horrible. It's horrible. It's so heartbreaking. And then he is intermittently in and out. He's on the fringe and then he'll wander. There's a year of him just being in this kind of purgatory of he's not really in the group, He's still trying to check in with the group. And in that time, the booze zoo, does attack. Gichurasi. Gichurasi. When he was sick, as you said. When he was sick, yeah. And at first, the females still really align with Gichurasi. They follow him. He loses the fight. Gichurasi loses the fight. Yes, Gichurasi loses the fight. But even despite the fact that he lost the fight, the females stay. Teta. Teta. She stays, and she's kind of the leader of the females. She stays very aligned with him. And so he can keep his dominance. I think these females are really smart. They need these males to protect their infants. Because they are susceptible, generally, from males from other families that will come in and target their babies. So Gichurasi's health was not great, and they probably could see the writing on the wall. And so they did transfer allegiance to Abuzu. But Gichurasi stayed in the group. Oh, okay. Did sort of what Pablo had done. Stayed in the group and helped support the group and keep that group together. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking the pockets of your jeans before doing laundry? Classic oversight. That mystery clunking in the dryer? Yeah. That was your lip balm's final moments. And somehow, there's always one random receipt in there to dissolve into confetti. Yeah. Checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North America Insurance Co. and Affiliates. Northbrook. Illinois. 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I drink it, and I know, mm, I'm going to get that little vitamin buzz. Well, that's also the thing. When you do it first thing in the morning, you already feel kind of self-esteem because you're like, I already did something good for myself. Yes. Go to drinkag1.com slash dax, and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of Omega-3 fish oil. And a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com slash dax. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Armchair Experts sent you. And what's kind of interesting, too, Monica, is Abuzu goes from this scowl, and he's so menacing looking. And it's funny, because once he has the title, I don't know unless I'm imagining or projecting, he can relax, and he's now more playful with some of the infants. And his whole demeanor changes. He doesn't seem to be bullying anyone else. What about that other guy? Well, this is what the craziest moment is. Yeah. Okay, and I got to ask you. Okay, so Abuzu finally reproduces. But he reproduces with a very important female. And this is the answer to your question from 10 minutes ago. So explain what happened with her. A young gay. A young gay. So what's interesting, I thought of you, because she is a female that moved into the Pablo family. So males can't move between families, but females can. So she moved into Pablo's family from the Sousa group, which is the group that you saw when you went to Rwanda. Oh, wow. Yeah. Have you met her? I met her. She probably wasn't born. She was young. Child bride. Females will usually leave their family around nine. She left at six. Oh, my God. Which is pretty young. And it's oftentimes hard. It's a little bit like human society. Like when a new female comes in, they get a little bit bullied by the other females because it's kind of competition. The males want to pay a lot of attention to them, et cetera. Well, also just something new. Yeah, something new. But she gets pregnant and she has a baby and that automatically elevates your status because everyone wants to be around the baby. They love babies. They love babies. It's so cute. But it's all documented her coming in. And it's scary. They just walk over. How are they doing this without words? I don't understand. She just starts kind of being at a distance, then closing that gap. And then she can figure out and delineate that it's Tata that is the alpha. So slowly she works her way over to her. And then Tata lets her play with one of her babies. And she's like, okay, I'm solid. Then Mbuzu is now the champ and she gets into estrus. So they have a little baby. And again, now she's in the group. She's in the group. Okay. I have so many questions about your theories on this. So then the bullied one, Imphura, comes. Well, we don't know this yet. What we know is her baby's killed. Oh, and it is what happens when you exclude people. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. They do bad stuff. Yes. But here's what's crazy. And I wanted to know, Mbuzu was out mating with a woman. He was distracted, he was cheating. I got nine things right in this little section. One is. Chimp males are trying to blast all day long. Hey, there's a leopard over there. You know, they're constantly because they're competing. But now, interestingly, because Mbuzu has all access and there's nine of them and one of him, he seems pretty disinterested. The female who's in estrus is like, she's got some leaves. She's like, check out my leaves and she's doing all this stuff. And he's literally staring at her and finally like, all right. And I'm like, that's already upside down from the chimps. Do you find that those males are disinterested in sex more than other animals? The females put on a show like they come and they strut and have like their sexy face they do. They're talking bipedally. Well, you said because it elevates their status to have a baby, to have a baby. So that makes sense. And also if their penises are too tiny. So he's off doing that. And then Mfuro comes and kills this baby. We don't know it, but everyone in the group knows that the baby's been killed. All the females are gathered around, they're mourning it. And you can see that Mbuzu, he knows he fucked up. Yeah. And he could lose the confidence. They do. The thing about mountain gorillas, of the four types of gorillas, they're really the only ones that live in these multi-male groups. So if you look at the other three types, they generally just have one adult male. Because they live in this forest with tons of food, their social structure is different, but I don't think like it's caught up with them evolutionarily. So there's not supposed to be all these males living together. And so they haven't quite figured it out yet. The dominant male normally does most of the siring, but younger males can do it. And I think we talked about this last time that they have his vocalist. vocalization they do when they copulate. And these younger males will sneak off with the females and they're hidden in the bushes, but they still make this vocalization. Like they can't not make it. Yeah, we all understand. And the dominant male is like, oh wait, what's happening? And you're going to get smacked for that. Yeah. Even if it happens. It's like, they're not trying to let that happen, right? No, unless it's really young females, they generally will. Because a lot of times those females might've been their daughter, number one, the dominant male's daughter. Or the females go through this period of adolescent sterility where they're copulating, but they don't actually get pregnant. And so one strategy a dominant male could have would be to let these younger guys practice when it's not really any cost to him. Because some males will stay in the group they're born in their whole life. And that's when you get the Pablo Cansby situation. And those groups fare really well because if the dominant male dies, you've got someone right there to keep the group together. Other males strike out on their own. And we found that what decides whether or not a male is going to be a dominant male is going to be a dominant male. And that's what we're going to do. So one strategy a dominant male will stay is number one, does he get to practice copulating? So having that opportunity to practice is important, even if he's not necessarily making babies. And number two, what I think is really interesting is if his mom is still in the group. So even these 400 pound males, they don't like hang out with their moms, but their moms are probably a social lubricant for them, like giving them access to the dominant male. So if you don't have your mom and you're not getting to practice, you're much more likely to say, well, I'm just going to strike out on my own and see if I can attract some females to join me from another family. And this would be Infora. Infora. Yeah. Okay. So what's wild in this part? I don't know. There's some kind of dissonance between how smart they are and the fact that they don't have language. So the baby's dead. What you can also see, Monica, if you look closely, they don't call it out, but she clearly fought to save the baby because she's injured and she still has the baby. And she still has the baby. And they will hold those babies for long periods of time, like weeks. Too long. Oh my God. And so everyone knows this has happened. And Boozoo's like, I fucked up. I could lose my group. But she can't tell them who did it. Yeah. It's so crazy. It's like, they're so smart and they're reading such nuance. Can't they just like go up to them? Yeah. They're reading these incredibly nuanced moments perfectly. You can tell they're comprehending it all. And they don't have at least a hand sign for each other. So she can't tell. So no one knows. And then Infora shows himself. And the look on her face, they all see and they know it was him. Immediately, a Boozoo goes in and attacks him. Now, here's the crazy thing. And I'm curious. The second Gicharasi, he runs in and joins. And as he's running in to join, I yelled to my kids like, oh my God, who's he going to help? Because he was just overthrown. Like a chimp might have helped the other. So what would be your expectation in that situation? Is that all shocking or does that make total sense? It makes sense to me that he would go for a Boozoo and help a Boozoo. Because a Boozoo is now the established leader. And Infora is in this troublesome. He's had bad behavior. Yeah. So he's better off aligning himself. The females have already aligned themselves with a Boozoo. He's going to be much better off on the right side of history. Yeah. But again, he's reading that scenario. And Infora is now big. He's not the undersized version he was. So now it's like it's a dangerous situation. But he's old and it's doesn't make sense. Yeah. All to say they obviously. They kill him. They don't. And I don't know how he didn't die in that situation. Yeah. No, they didn't kill him. But basically it sort of pushed him. So we don't really want you in the group. And then went so far as to in the past, they would let him just leave. And this time they led a mission to chase him clear out of there. When the researchers are watching this or obviously the filmmakers are selfish and in it for themselves. Is anyone like you need to step in? I mean, I know. No, you can't. But like. It's so hard. Yeah. It's so, so hard. I was thinking about that with this chimp situation as well. I always think you could probably take our discussion and put people names on it. And it could be a human story, right? Like all the intrigue and the drama and she did this and he did that. And then to have to sit and watch this happen. It's really, really difficult. You're trying to be the impassioned or. Dispassionate. Dispassionate observer. And it's really hard. But you know, you want the best genes to survive. That's going to be the best thing for the species in the long run. So we're just there to watch. But it's tough. Yeah. Because again, in anthropologists have learned the hard way numerous times when they have intervened, they have often caused far more collateral damage than they initially. But it's like you're seeing a little baby get killed. I know. It's so hard not to just be like. Well, and let me tell you the follow up to this now. So the filming stopped two years ago. And in that time, Gitcharasi has, we assume, died. So he disappeared. We searched for him for months, but couldn't find him. So yeah. So he's now left the group. The good news is there are two younger boys that are coming up. One who's the brother of Abuzu that will hopefully continue to support him. But there was another infant death right at the end of filming that we weren't able to capture. We weren't sure what had happened. But the thought was that Mphura had killed that infant. He's killed four infants in total. He keeps coming back and then killing them and leaving. Yeah. Infanticide is a pretty common reproductive strategy in gorillas, but it's always, it's directed towards infants that are not in your family. We've only had two other instances in 60 years where an infant was killed by a male within its own group. Two? Two in 60 years. Oh my God. So for this guy to kill four kids. And there were other infants that were born in the group that he didn't kill and they were born to his aunts. So that's really interesting as well. Okay, great. So I have several questions about what we think Mphura's motivation is. For me, right away, I thought it was interesting that the first infant he killed was twofold. I could see motivation. One is it's Mbuzu's offspring who just kicked him out. And then secondly, I mean, those is probably too much human projection, but it's an offspring of an outsider who has been accepted by the group. And he was an insider that had been thrown out. And it's just not hard to imagine that he hated her. And Mbuzu. And I'm just wondering, do we play armchair psychologists with them? What do you think is going on? What's your best guess? My best guess is that when these females move into a family group, like I was saying earlier, it's a tentative time for them because they're not like fully integrated. And what we will see and actually what Mphura tried to do later on after the movie finished was the young males view that as their moment. Like, okay, before these females move into a group with them. So I wonder if there was a piece of him that was like, hey, if her infant because when a female has a baby, she is not interested in a male for another four years, because she's busy taking care of that baby. She doesn't cycle, etc. So she's kind of off limits to him now. But if he kills that baby, and maybe she'll be like, hey, I'm not so safe in this group. My infant wasn't safe in this group. I'm going to go off with this male. So it may have been trying to increase his chances to take her and form his own group because we did have two kids successfully kind of take them off. But I think they realized we don't really want to be with you. And they came. Oh, my God. So now we don't now we haven't seen him in a bit. We don't know where he is. We're very happy for the moment because we have young babies in there. And we want them all to be safe. Because Pablo's group since filming started, so about the last four years has had eight babies and only three have survived. So four were killed, one was a stillborn and three have survived. So we don't like those numbers, usually about 75% of kids survive. And this is something that I think we need to stabilize. Okay, now I don't know if this is counterproductive or sacrilegious. But I do want to get into the weird overlap. I do think it's fascinating how similar they are to us in many respects. And I have to say with him, Furo, I'm never gonna say it right. That's why he kills. Yeah, they gave him a what else was he gonna do? Again, since his behavior now doesn't follow a mating strategy. We would have to just say it's kind of like a mental pathology and I cannot help but see the parallel between the kid that's just completely bullied into oblivion and shows up at the school. I've been thinking that this whole time. It's funny, because coming in, I'm like, Okay, what kind of questions is Dax gonna ask me? Right? Because I remember hearing when you talk about Chimp Empire a lot when it was on and I told James Reid, I was like, James, you should go on the show and talk because I know that he really has enjoyed Chimp Empire. It's interesting, because we've had one other male that had a similar type of situation. He actually killed four adult males. He figured because normally males can die in fights, but usually they're not killed, they get injured, and then they get an infection, and they die from that, but they're not killed outright. But this male figured out kind of how to go for the jugular literally. And so these males would bleed out very, very quickly. And what's interesting in thinking about both of them as they both had some significant childhood trauma. Yeah. So you're an AZA, who was the male who killed a bunch of other males. He was actually with Pablo. And Pablo was badly, badly wounded in a fight and died from that fight. So he was kind of Pablo's right hand man. So he saw Pablo get very badly wounded and die. And his PTSD. And was caught in a snare, which can be very, very traumatic. When he was quite young, he was caught in a snare. His mom lived, but his mom died when he was about 12. But she, he had a much younger brother who was three and a half, who then he had to raise. So I think it's interesting, like what could early life experiences, what role models, that play. Now, lots of gorillas have had bad early life experiences. They're just fine. But we're actually doing a big study right now where we're comparing the gorillas with the Gombe chimps from Jane Goodall and then another population of chimps that are in the same forest as the Ngogo chimps, but it's in a different area. They're called the Kinyawara chimps. And we're really interested in looking at early life adversity and what that means for later life outcomes. Because the gorillas amazingly seem to be much more buffered. When something happens to them early on, probably because they have this really tight community that the chimps don't have. And I feel like you see that a lot in Chimp Empire. In re-watching it, I'm like, God, these guys feel so alone. Oh, they're so alone. Whereas the gorillas are just with each other all the time. They're a cohesive unit. They stay together. And we were able to show that if a young gorilla loses its mom, it actually spends more time near other gorillas because everyone kind of comes and buffers them. And I've thought about this a lot with my daughters, having lost a parent. And what is the community you need? To build around them, to give them that social buffering that hopefully will help. This was in your TED Talk. Give the statistics. There's some fascinating statistics. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if a male chimp loses its mom even up to the age of 15, so they're weaned at five. So they're nutritionally completely independent. If they lose their mom up to the age of 15, they have a shorter life expectancy than a chimp that doesn't lose its mom. And we don't see this with gorillas. And in fact, some of our most successful gorillas, Pablo lost his mom when he was four. But he had been taken on by Beethoven. Right. And Titus had lost his mom. He lost his whole family. They were decimated by poachers. And he went on to become an incredibly successful male. And I think in part, they get adopted by the silverback. So, you know, you've got the number one guy in the group who's making sure you have prime access to food. He'll sleep with them at night. And then the whole group supports you. So this social bonding that happens in gorilla families, which is really interesting. It's so interesting. So Emphora's bullying is not unique. I mean, maybe just because I saw it, it was captured on camera. It seemed. But is that just standard? Did he have not reacted? No. I mean, when we've looked at it, it's very rare for males to be kind of forced out of the group. Usually, they kind of choose to leave on their own. But they will get aggression directed at them. And maybe he was being inappropriate in other ways. I think Mbuzu was probably also just in a heightened state of arousal. Just taken over from Gichurasi, he's trying to make sure everyone knows he's dominant. This male is kind of on his coattails. And so just putting him in his place. Right? And there may have been other things going on that we didn't capture that happened, you know, when we're not with the gorillas. But my guess is it was a bit of that. And maybe Emphora was trying to take advantage of the situation and the uncertainty. Because one of the things that was really clear to us in watching it, the group did not expect Mbuzu to take over. No. Like, when that first fight happened, you can see they're all kind of like, wait, what's going on? Because I think Gichurasi was about 28. So he wasn't past his prime. Canspy lived to be 38. But he had been sick. So it was a bit of a shock. He sort of came in hot. So it took a little while. The group was unsettled. And so maybe Emphora was taking advantage of that a little bit. I was shocked how close the females were getting to them as they were fighting. Again, you don't see that in chimps. Everyone's smart enough to get out of there ASAP. Everyone gets involved. So, yeah, that told me that either of those fights aren't as dangerous. There's some clue there that they were that close and engaged. Yeah. No, the females often will. In one of them, I think it's Teta. You can see she's, like, biting. I don't remember if it was Emphora or Ubuzu. But she's, like, biting. In there, right in the mix. Biting. Like, break it up? Or, like, I'm on someone's side. No, like, joining the side. Okay. Or attacking at that time. Oh, wow. Okay, so back to the parallel with the kid at school. Yeah. It's interesting to see. And between the chimp empire and this movie, one of the huge, to me, takeaway messages is the value of these long-term studies. We don't have that many of them. But Ngogo was a wonderful, peaceful chimp community for 20 years before this started happening. And then all of a sudden, they had a few members die. That were kind of. The connectors between these two neighborhoods. And then, you know, they just gradually, over time, got to the point where now they're going and systematically trying to eliminate the other population. You could have gone in for 20 years and never would have thought that would have happened. The same with the gorillas. Like, when Diane was first there, there was a lot of poaching of gorillas. So there was a lot of infanticide. Because when a male would get poached, that would give another male an opportunity to come in. 40% of deaths were infanticide. Then when poaching was eliminated, it was really stable. And for 15 years, we didn't have a single. We didn't have a single case of infanticide. If you were a researcher that came in at that point in time, you would say, oh, gorillas don't commit infanticide. It's not a reproductive strategy. Now we're seeing it again. But now it's much more natural. It's not caused by poaching. It's just the gorillas figuring out how they're going to sort themselves out. It's these long windows of time that show us how complicated their society is. Because if you went in for a shorter window of time, you might make assumptions just because whatever the ecological conditions were back then, they didn't need to fight. They could spread out, whatever. And then those ecological conditions change or something changes and we see this whole other side of them that we hadn't observed before, right? Well, it's interesting. It kind of goes into just studying things, which is like you're there for a short window. Context isn't even what you're looking at. You're looking at the subject and not even recognizing, oh, the context is absolutely determining what the subject's doing. And we have no idea how different or similar this context is to five years ago or 10 years ago. Exactly, 100%. I wonder, does that bleed into how you look? At us? Because I feel like I sometimes have a view of things that borders on sociopathic. From my friends in that. Let's talk about young males, men. It's like you're telling me we're going to look at all the other primates and especially look at the great apes. And we see just how they act and what their role is and what they have to do and all this chemistry they have to help them be aggressive in the moment they have to be or take chances or be daredevils to establish that we would have been excluded from that or because we're living in a civilization. For 3,000 out of our 300,000 years, somehow you think we all just, our chemistry changed. When you look at us, what do you think? I do think about it a lot. Like I like to kind of sit back and just sort of observe people. And I think about a lot when I get on planes. Here you are getting on a plane with 400 people you don't know. You're sitting like this. You're putting your life in someone else's hands. And we do it all the time. That is what I think is amazing about human society. Because that could never happen with gorillas. It could never happen with chimps. Never happen with chimps. Yeah. We're not the same. I think sometimes you can look at it as like we are animals. Well, we are. We come from animals, but we're humans. We're not the exact same. We're not. And we have all kinds of tools in our culture to overcome our deficits that no longer serve us. But the point is I don't say, hey, you got to acknowledge boys are this real thing to excuse it. I say, hey, they have an uphill battle that's going to go wrong if we don't have a great game plan because they've inherited 60% of our lives. 65 million years of primate evolution, 6 million years of ape evolution, 3 million years of hominid evolution. It didn't go away 3,000 years ago. That's a reality. So it's like I'm not saying boys should be able to act any way they want because they were designed to be this way. But I'm saying we need a fucking game plan for them, whether it's sports or it's this or it's that. They're built to do this thing. And if we just think it evaporated because we have silverware, it's very naive. And we need a game plan. Well, it's funny because Rob and I were just talking before you guys came. And he was saying he has two boys and I was just on spring break with friends of mine that have young men. And it's just so interesting. They're so different. They are always moving. They're always active. They're always eating. It's so completely different than having girls. And I think that's some of the points that Scott Galloway has made. And I know he's been on your show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is the outlet? Yeah, especially now as more and more people are interacting more with screens and not with people. How are the older men in our society going to step up and be mentors to these young men? And help teach them the societal rules and norms. And it's very easy now for you to get lost in a virtual world or an online world that takes you down a different path. Yes. Or I'm reading a book right now for a guest we have on Wednesday. And it's about this kid who goes astray in London. And he's got classmates that are sons of oligarchs in London. So they have great wealth. And he becomes obsessed with wealth. And these boys that are obsessed with the manosphere. What you're seeing in the simplest way is young males think they've found a way to have females. I mean, it's really that simple at its core is, oh, that's a strategy. I see the video and there's a bunch of beautiful girls around this guy and he's got muscles and a Ferrari. That's the thing. Or this guy's at the nightclub. It's still about mates. It's never not going to be about mates. Well, it's also about they say it in that doc, like money. So much of it is about money. But what's the point of the money when you're 15, 16, 17? It's really all to have the girl in the bikini next to you. Like it is the currency currently. It would have been great meat. So I have meat to share with the group and I'm going to elevate my status and gain access reproductively. There's always been things or I'm going to protect everyone. And that's going to be my route in absence of these things that have gone away. Now it's like, I don't know if you're a young male. What is it? I guess it's money or I guess it's a car or I guess it's this or it's that. And we can't just go. No, you got to not be that way. We have to have a solution for how they're supposed to get mates. That's not that disgusting thing. None of us want. Yeah. Probably calling them like bitches and sluts is like not the way they're giving them horrible advice. They're giving them horrible advice and it's a two way street. They are with women. So that's a reality. Like you might dismiss those women that have chosen to be around those guys. But the 13 year old boy doesn't know that you think those women have low priorities. He's seeing them with women. What do we do about that? That's the two way street of it all. But they're degrading them. They're like, I would never actually date someone like that. Or if you were my daughter. or I would disown you. These are the things that-- - Monica, it's disgusting, so no pushback. I know what you're saying. Yeah, it's just like, what's the solution? To say that those boys need to just be at 13 years old, elevated and have our consciousness, that's not a solution. But it's like, which alphas are they looking up to is the solution. Showing which alpha to look up to is the solution. And women do play a part in that. Yeah, that's why I think it's not a good approach to put it all on one side. It's like, I think we have a collective issue. How do I make sure my daughter's not attracted to a guy who says she's a bitch and drives a Ferrari? That's part of this equation. For sure. One thing though, with the movie, Dax, that I wanted to ask you about is, well, first of all, what was it like to watch with your daughters? What did they think? And then one of the worries that we had when the movie started was the behaviors we saw were so un-guerrilla-like. In a way, like they do have these dominant shifts. We've seen four or five of them in 60 years. Pretty rare. It's usually pretty peaceful. Usually a male dies and the next one takes over. This infanticide was really rare. And so a concern of mine at the start was, oh, you know, is the movie going to go in the direction of showing this violent side and sort of portraying gorillas as chimps, which they really aren't. And I was really happy. I thought that the filmmakers did an amazing job. You're afraid of making jaws. Yeah, yeah. And making everyone afraid of these animals and not sympathetic. Or maybe even a little bit of the road we just went down, which is, uh-oh, gorillas are angry and kill and want power when most of the time they don't. They don't. And I think the takeaway should be the context, the context, the context. Yeah, we're all capable of good and bad. And when you control this other thing, you see this emerge. And when this happens, you see this emerge. So we can't control the behavior once it's emerging. We have to control the context before it emerges. It's just, no, that's not the strategy. It's in the middle of the, you know. Right. I don't know of someone who, this is their very first exposure to gorillas. I think that would be hard to imagine. No one's not watched the many peaceful versions, we've seen of the gorillas. But yeah, this is the singular thing they witness. I still think your scene of the whole movie, they're filming for six years. They filmed for two. Oh, okay. Six years. Project. Yeah. Okay, so they're filming for two years and they have about 90 seconds of footage of fighting. Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. In reality. And then they have an hour and 58 minutes and 30 seconds of rolling around and hugging and grooming and caring for each other. So I guess you'll, you'll take whatever you want. Young boys will watch that. I'm a man and I'm watching it. And of course I'm going to be projecting onto that male. I'm like, yeah, that's what I would have to do. And I would do it. And I have tried to do it my whole life and I want a family and I will do whatever that takes. So if it's jump things or protect them or whatever. So yeah, I'm watching it, having this experience. And then my daughters and my wife are watching it going like, oh my God, these poor women have to deal with these men. Of course, but again, this is how this thing works. You could hate it or love it, but it is how it kind of works. So it's so well done. And again, we must be suspicious of Reed. I don't know how he's capturing because they're so similar to us. You cannot help, but to project onto them and to feel like you're watching a reality show of humans. There's so many cute moments with the silverbacks, these big, huge males holding these little infants playing with them. They're sliding down their backs. And I was just thinking like, as a dad watching, it with your kids to see that those interactions exist in gorilla society, just like they exist in ours. I will say, I feel like the gorilla males, they are beloved. They are the center of attention when it's resting time. Everyone's resting around them. The moms leave their kids with them and go off and feed and the males babysit. I do feel because there's not as much intragroup competition that for male gorillas, it's still a stressful lifestyle, but watching chimps is just, to me, it's like watching aliens. They're always making noise. Yelling, screaming, running around the gorillas, those screams you heard. That's like all you ever hear from gorillas. That's it. When there's a fight other than that, they're quiet. They just sort of grunt to each other. I'm over here. I'm over here. If we look at humans too, it speaks to resources a lot. Yeah. The chimps might have to walk three miles to go to the tree that's in bloom. These gorillas eat everything around them at all times. They're never not eating. They're just moving five feet and eating more and then moving five feet. Then they take their nap. They wake up there right next to the food. So I think that's applicable. To us, it's like when there's great resources and people aren't fighting over finite resources, you see a different side of animals. You know, the other thing, Dax, I thought you would find fascinating about those in go-go chimps is that they are incredible hunters. I think it's the one example other than humans of one primate hunting another species into decline. So the red colobus monkeys there have declined by 90% primarily because these they're more efficient hunters. They're like on the level of wild dogs in terms of coordination. Well, they hunt and coordination and everything because gorillas are vegetarians. Occasionally they eat an ant. You saw them eat ants. They don't even know how to eat them right. That's the comedic portion of the film. I'm like, can you just get a stick? Yeah, they suck. They can't use tools. What are they doing? They're so elevated in this domain. And then over here, it's like there's clumsily slamming their fist into this hole with a ton of these. Super biting ants. Like it really hurts when they bite you. Yeah, it was not colonizer ants. It was something crazy. I don't know. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. Huge pinchers. And they're like, oh shit. And then they're trying to kill them so they can then pick them up and eat them. I'm like, just go get a stick. Yeah. Be like a chimp, get a stick. Eat it the proper way. Go fishing. So we can publish that and everyone will love them because they are good tool users in captivity. But they don't need to out there. When you live in a huge salad bowl, there's not much you need tools for. So they just don't do it. The chimp people make fun of them all the time for being stupid because they don't use tools. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We get surprised. Support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundeo or for Glipron. 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Which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am? They never are. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. We get support from Skims. So, Monica just informed me that she's a girl's girl. And I nodded like I knew exactly what that meant. Yeah, but the girls who get it, they get it. Okay, but for those of us who are clearly not girls, walk me through it. Well, you know how much I love my Skims fleece joggers because the plush is so soft, it's cozy, it's really comfortable without feeling too heavy. Well, I lent a friend them and she would not stop talking about how comfy they were. She almost didn't give them back to me, which was upsetting, but I'm a girl's girl, so I let her have it. Okay, great, great, great. So the sleep sets are awesome because they are very soft and comfortable, but they're cute. If I'm in my sleep set, I feel fine about going down the street to pick up my food. I'm still looking cute, but I'm comfy and I'm cozy. Roger. A really fun thing. A really fun thing to do is if you're going on vacation with your girlfriends to get matching Skims pajamas. I've done this with Callie and it is so fun. First of all, the pics are so cute, but also it's just fun and friendship. So a girl's girl is looking out for your friends with better loungewear. I get it. Am I one of your girls now? You are. You and the other girlies can shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at Skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop down menu that follows. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace, and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. 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And they learned sign language. They've been taught sign language. Yeah, Coco, yep. Is she our only example? I mean, I think she was the only one that it was done with. I don't think there were others that were in the sign language program, but yeah, she did. You remember famously, she knew her kitty was not anymore. She signed that her kitty was dead. Coco had a kitty. A kitty like a cat. Oh, a cat. Okay. She had a pet and it was hit by a car and she understood that it was dead. She signed this unique. Sign. They have pets? No, this is the one that was raised in captivity and taught sign language. Like she was kind of raised almost like a human child. Oh, right. So it was a lot of studies in the seventies that were interested in seeing how much did apes really understand language, even though they can't verbally make language the way we can do. How much do they understand? Okay. I have a couple of geeky questions. All right. In the doc, Attenborough says, and I'm paraphrasing, but he's talking about his first interaction with them in the seventies with Pablo and the others saying of all the animals. They see the world as we do as humans do. And I read Ed Young's great book where it talks about the umwelt, that German word and the umwelt for people who doesn't, it's all of your senses taking in the outside world and constructing it into what's in your head. And that's your umwelt. And so some animals are seeing an infrared and so that's their umwelt. So how much do we know about gorillas umwelt? How do they see? How do they hear? How do they touch? All very similar to us. I think their sense of smell. I don't know that anyone's tested it. I get the sense of smell. I get the sense that their sense of smell is maybe it's still a little bit better than ours, but yeah, very visual, similar eyesight. They seem taller. Yep. They're not like those birds that when we look at them, they're brown. And when they look at each other, they have like a huge red spot on them that we can't see, which I think is so cool. It's so cool. Okay. And then where are we at with tourism? Yeah. Huge part of the conservation success story. So I think there's 13 different types of great apes when you look at species and subspecies, not including us. And they are all declining except for gorillas. And so I think that's a huge part of the conservation success story. So I think there's 13 different types of great apes when you look at species and subspecies, mountain gorillas. They're the only ones on the planet that are increasing in number. Now, at the species level, they're still critically endangered, which means that's one level before extinct in the wild. So very at risk, very much need support. But there's a lot of factors that have gone into that conservation success, but part of it is definitely tourism because that money helps fund the park. And it also is shared with the human communities that live adjacent to the park. So they understand the value of- They're incentivized to keep them. For sure. The challenge with tourism is it needs to be done responsibly and well, particularly because these animals are super sensitive to the same illnesses that we have. So we have to make sure we're not bringing in anything to them, which is why each family is only visited for one hour a day by a maximum of eight people. And you're supposed to wear a mask when you're with them as well. Well, that's new. Yeah, that's new. That's since COVID. And you get up to where you can see them. And once they're seen, you have to stop. There's at least worked when we were there. Yeah. I would say that more often than not, the rules are broken on getting too close to them, but it's not the people's fault. It's the gorilla's fault because a lot of times you can't move. You're stuck. And the guides are really good at telling you like, don't move, let them, they're just going to pass by. They'll only be here for a second because if you move or you startle them, that's when they might get a little bit nervous. I think they also like to put us in our place. Like this is my forest, this big guy's here, but I'm the alpha. This is my forest. I'm just going to let him know. I'm two and a half times the size of you, my friend. I know you're big in your little world. I will say I've never seen a tourist get pulled. But you've heard that, right? You've heard them say that? I'm sure some of our team members have that are with the gorillas more. And then, you know, the males, when they display, they like to pick stuff up and throw it. If you're in the way, they might scooch you. But no, I take people to Rwanda all the time to see the gorillas. Never have had anyone get hurt. Bee stings are more likely what might bother them in the forest or an ant bite than the gorillas themselves. The guides are really good. They can read their behavior. Oh, they're next level. Yeah. Move you to the right spot. And the gorillas, they've seen people every day of their lives. So I think, honestly, in their minds are like, OK, that hour where these weird ones that stand on their two feet instead of being, you know, on all four. Yeah, they're here for an hour and they're going to leave and then we'll just go about our day. The kids are really interested. A lot of times I want to check you out. The males are like sleeping and they'll turn their back on you, which to me is a sign they're very comfortable because you don't turn your back on something that you're worried about. You want to keep your eye on it. And, you know, they'll be laying there and continue sleeping. The one thing I will say about tourism is it's incredibly valuable, but it can't be our only solution for conservation because we saw it during the pandemic. People stopped traveling or if there's an economic downturn or if there's civil unrest. And so if all the money for conservation is being generated through one mechanism, whatever it is, tourism in this case, it's not sustainable. So we need a diversified approach to conservation if we want these kinds of animals to stay on the planet. I think that that's a really important part of it. I remember learning. That for almost all of them, bearing your teeth is not good for each other. If like one chimps bears his teeth to another, that's kind of a threat. Is it the same in gorillas? It feels like our interactions would be innately flawed because when we're happy and friendly, we're just like all teeth. There's a lot of playing in the movie. And when they play, they pull their lips back and you can see their teeth really well. So I think it's not just the teeth, but it's all the other context that goes along with it. The same way we can make a scary face when we're showing our teeth and you tell, is that person tense? Like if they have a tense smile versus if they're really relaxed. The other thing that people talk about too is direct eye contact can be aggressive and it can be, but they love to look at you. They like to come up and look. I always equate it to like when you're in an elevator. If you're in an elevator and someone turns and looks at you, right? So you've got to know the context. If the gorillas are upset, you're going to look away and that's a sign of respect. Like I'm not challenging you, but otherwise they're fine if you look at them. It's what's happening in the larger context. Okay. My last question, and it's completely frivolous. Did you watch Chimp Crazy? I did not. I have a lot of friends that work in those areas trying to help chimps that are in situations like that, but I did not watch it. As like a choice, because there's things I don't watch as I'm like, I refuse to support that. Was it that type of choice or was it like, I have no interest in seeing this? I know enough about that world to be like, I don't need to know anymore. Like it's probably just going to upset me. Because I think if I were you, I might feel, and even I felt a little bit like I felt this terrible that's right feeling. Like, yeah, you think they're this and you're so naive and you want a pet so bad. So part of me was fascinated in that way. Like, oh really? You think you can have a teenage fertile male chimp around you and that's going to work out? Crazy. Oh, oh my Lord. Well, the documentary is incredible. I loved it. Watch it with the girls. I think everyone should watch with their family. It's great. And no, I don't think you'll walk away feeling like Jaws when the start wrestling. It looks like two stuffies came alive and started wrestling. I love that. It's true. They're so cute. And I have to say too, I love the scenery of Rwanda. Like it's so dramatic. I felt like that was a whole nother character just showing the mountains and what they look like and that mist and the rain. And it's beautiful. It's an Eden for sure. When their babies are their teeth sharp, was he in danger at all when the little baby? No. Um, that's a great question, Monica. I mean, I'm sure if the baby had bitten him, like he could have broken skin, but when he might've been at risk is if he did something that like scared the baby and the baby did a little vocalization that it was nervous. And then you got mom and maybe you got dad coming over to see what's going on. So I probably shouldn't hang out with a little baby. Not if mom and dad are. It's really, I mean, they are like little fluff. I know. I really do want to touch them. But they're not soft. Thank God. They're not soft and cuddly. It's more of a brillo pad. Yeah. Okay. The movie is a gorilla story told by David Attenborough. It is on Netflix and your team said Earth Day, April 22nd, but the internet says the 17th. It's the 17th. It's the 17th. We've forgotten Earth Day. We don't need that tie in. We don't need to cross promote. Tara, it's so great to get to see you in person. It's so much more fun. Thank you for having me back and letting me talk about my favorite subject for an hour and a half. I love it. So fun. So interesting. All right. Be well. So unfortunately, they made some mistakes. We're recovering from something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm fully recovered. Yeah. Yeah. Easter egg and maybe it will or will not make the final cut. Well, it will because you want it to and he wants it to. I'm best to never see it. But I did insist on dancing in front of a guest. Yeah. Which is, of course, real hard to watch. But it was like, I don't know. What's the good? What's a good analogy? It's like, well, you probably never see anything like it to compare it to. To be clear, you danced to a song of this guest. Yeah, because I love it so much. You love it so much. And it is a great song. And you just had to do it. You broke the table in the middle of doing it. Which I think is a sign of any great dance party. - So it scared me, I was like, my god oh no things are breaking things are are literally breaking down as as we speak yeah yeah um in eight years is the biggest swing i've taken for sure yeah and i guess i just like want to know you know you're so different from me you know you like like you go you know you're acknowledging it like this is this is so weird weird this is crazy this is kind of inappropriate like highly like this you're making this person watch you dance yes it's crazy it could be super self-indulgent too exactly yes it ran all these risks i had the idea because i had been dancing to this person's song for a couple of hours today and i had a fantasy that maybe they'd want to dance with me to the song and then so two things it's like i kind of want to do that but i have to i have to um assess during the two hour interview whether this is going to be way too much for the person or not so there was a really high likelihood i wasn't even going to ask okay but i i thought that that their personality you're like maybe could handle it okay and then they didn't want to dance with me yeah and then i just felt like you can only believe so much when i tell you i like the song see that's where we but if i'm willing to go to this super embarrassing level to demonstrate how i feel when i hear it that would be like my most sure way of letting them know i think he knew you know i think he knew before you dance that he that like it meant a lot to you that you love it and like because you were pretty effusive just in the words you were using about how much you loved it so it came words are easy though they're cheap no they're not yeah um they came through it came through but you know it was unnecessary is what you're saying yeah yeah okay um but then you you did it and we got through it i i guess you know some i'm embarrassed but i'm like i i just i just like could and would never do what you you just did you know and so there's there's like wow wow he's so different from me and it's cool and it's cool you you really don't care i care but not enough i care but not enough to overwhelm this other thing i think is pure that i want to do i know i think it was the watching yeah watching is rough it's kind of like if someone would have been if i looked at you guys in the eyes while it was happening which i never did oh my god okay moving on transitioning that was that i just think we needed to like because it was one second ago i haven't even caught my breath fully it was quite a workout yeah i mean that's the thing like when someone's dancing and you're being forced to watch like every song is actually 45 minutes and aren't you glad you had each other i am glad but then i also felt okay look here's like what's there's it's complicated actually i can't you're one of my many fathers if any of my fathers you my dad bill you wouldn't want to see bill dance i don't want him to dance in front of me while this guest is here while everyone's actually no i don't i don't want any of my dads to do that i understand and so you know i'm having like a very nap a very like personal reaction which is like i absolutely want this to end like yeah right song is way too long and it's a short one it's like three minutes but our guest is engaging with me during this because he is finding this very funny yeah yeah even though it's crazy not funny it's it's it's real it's all very real yeah um and so but then i was like well i don't want to like gang up i don't want to like us be laughing at dax like that's mean so i'm gonna handle this just be over now i committed like i committed so what ever outcome i was i was at peace with i know but it's like i don't know i just okay i'm glad it's over yeah yeah um so so uh other update yeah i threw that thing away and then last night no problems yeah so it was the peptide yeah definitely because i took my i took my nighttime vitamins in uh oils and omega-3s yeah so everything was well figured it out that's good that was an it figured it out yeah yeah yeah i was gonna ask i'm glad you brought that up okay um my brother is is like about to be here he's seconds away i'm now i'm now upset i didn't plan things in what way oh i'm like oh god now what are we what are we gonna do okay this might be fun for our audience if they come into the city of los angeles um well first of all has she ever been here your brother's visitors are ones who've never been to la and naturally they do have to go see hollywood boulevard and they gotta see the sign and they gotta see santa monica pier and but none of us want to do all the things we don't want to do when when you live here yes um she has but like kind of briefly so i do wonder if we're gonna need to check a few things off the list we might need to for anyone who's visiting los angeles why don't you give your perfect day well i know what i would do right now is i would i would get online and i would book and i would bake the break the bank and i would go see whatever's playing at the hollywood bowl this weekend i think that's the most special thing in la is the hollywood bowl okay and if you can get yourself into those little picnicky area it's so fun and magical yeah and anything like the philharmonics plane it'll be great interesting okay kid rock go take him to see i'm good i'm good on that but oh can you imagine i mean yeah i got a great surprise you never know they're from georgia they might i'm talking about like the hollywood bowl no one would go wow like it would be so interesting to see who would show up for that yeah i don't think they're booking him is my point probably not yeah um okay that's great hollywood bowl or greek okay so you're going okay if you're booking to your your brother's coming in town with his his fiancee yeah um and they're they're cool they're fun you know you're you have 24 hours with them you're going concert i would go hollywood bowl and then i would wake up tomorrow morning and i would hike up to the observatory so they can look out over the city and see what a magical place it is i might take them to cara uh dodgers game okay dodgers game signature i'm trying to give them things that will be uniquely la okay and then you'll take them to silver like to eat or echo park one of those fun little neighborhoods i'm just gonna see what they're feeling yeah you know yeah what kind of cuisine are they interested in tonight yeah and avoid every time they mention the west side just act like you didn't hear it yeah like if they want to go to the beach or something just be like yeah is that what you just did just now when i said car because you just like didn't you just kept talking oh no oh no i wasn't intentionally doing that no i didn't know if you were showing me a way to do that demonstrating no like i just did with car just like i didn't did i hear that oh you said something about the beach i hadn't heard you anyways have you guys been to the hollywood bowl um all right well i i'm excited to have them and uh well we're gonna report back on how it goes yeah that's very fun it is hosting your little brother and his lady at my house yeah do i knock a candle over too there's something okay all right um yeah yeah that blew off yeah uh my kids love jane's addiction now that's a huge win for me they're ever expanding like musical taste makes me so happy yes cute because we watched that chili peppers doc did you watch it yet no did you watch it rob no i did not it's fucking phenomenal i cannot recommend it enough it's a beautiful documentary and i want to say publicly from the rooftops flea is the most beautiful fucking soulful human being yeah he's so sweet is anthony kiedis in it oh yeah i hope everyone remembers that ryan that our friend ryan is a mummy ryan is obsessed with anthony kiedis and when anthony kiedis was at your house for a second i've never seen him short circuit yeah he his reaction was really something what a reveal too because anthony was a mummy for halloween so there was just a mummy in the house if people remember and then he unwrapped it and it was like it was like i guess this is the mask center it was like a real yeah real version of the mask singer yeah i'm working late because i'm a singer great song sabrina oh my god a new artist for you did you know you can watch coachella live on youtube i didn't know that until the second weekend uh-huh yeah that's a bit that's why like that's why people had some interesting feelings about some of the performances because during their couch well no i think they're like oh this performance is made for people watching at home it's actually not made for me who's there that's what a lot of people were thinking because i think a lot of people are dying to pile on and hate things well i don't know like i heard some feedback about the beaver thing i was like are you fucking watched it it's so incredibly pure and amazing right but you watched it yeah on on you but i also talked to a bunch of people that were there and their fucking minds were blown so the people that i talked to were there were even more impressed yeah people i i think i think everyone's allowed to have their own opinion about certainly people are allowed to have their own opinion it also might be possible that people are allowed to have their own opinion but that people are dying to declare They hated something. Yeah. Even if they don't, I think so often they actually don't have an opinion. They like saw it and they're like, I don't know whether that's good or bad. And then they start hearing this chatter. And so they hear a theory pitched. Right. And when these things are pointed out, you're like, oh, I guess I did observe those things. I guess it was bad. I don't think they actually intrinsically felt that way. I think it depends on who's saying it, whether or not I think that or not. Yeah, if that person has halo effect. Right. Because like I have a kind of hot take on something right now. And it would annoy me if people were like, oh, you just don't like it because you don't want to like it because people like it. Because that's not true. There are real reasons why I don't like it. I'm not going to say what it is because I'm not here to blast anything. Now we're all dying to know. Oh, yeah, me and Hillbilly Elegy. Yeah. Everyone around me was like, this book is so great. Correct. This book is full of shit. And it was like, oh, you just like don't like it because everyone likes it. But not true. You had your. Own opinions. Yeah. Of which I have too many. And the less I have, the happier I am. If you dare. This episode is supported by Helix. Dax, is there anything better than crawling into a perfect bed on a cold fall night? Candle lit, hoodie on, maybe even some rain outside. The dream. That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights. I know. And thanks to Helix, my bed actually lives up to the vibe. All I had to do was take the Helix sleep quiz. And within two minutes, they matched me to a mattress built for exactly how I sleep. I have a midnight mattress. It also has cooling technology, which I really. Increasingly so. I need it. I have to have it. And I heard that you're supposed to sleep at a cold temp for optimal sleep. It's very, very helpful. She is not wrong. I have one, too. And it's been such a game changer for sleep. And I love that they make it so easy. Free shipping right to your door. And with their happy with Helix guarantee, you'll get a full 365 nights to try it. A whole year to live in that cozy. They've got over 20 mattress models. So no matter how you sleep, they've got one for you. And it's not just us saying it. Helix has been named the most awarded mattress brand by Forbes, Wired and more. You've got to try it for yourself. Go to Helix sleep dot com slash. Armchair for 20 percent off site wide. That's Helix sleep dot com slash armchair for 20 percent off site wide. Helix sleep dot com slash armchair. Now, do you think you're having less opinions or you're just keeping them quiet? I keep it on. It's not like it's actually making or do you think keeping them quiet is having a reverse effect and you're actually having less? For sure. In the way that like I've learned. I've learned to overcome my urge to share my opinion, right? So I have some practice now with that and I live. Everything's fine. I know one heard my opinion and I had a great point, but it didn't even matter. So I observed that. That's interesting. And then you get better at fighting the urge. Yeah. And then, yeah, I think the importance of my opinion in general has been downgraded. It's like, yeah, that's just the thought I have in my perspective. Yeah. And it's equally as relevant as everyone else's. And it might make. More sense mathematically or in terms of physics. But that is also just one way to observe the world and compute it. That's right. Yeah. I'm less and less as I age religious about the empirical. That's good. I just now see it as like, yes, that's, that's, that's an avenue to examine life, but that's a lens to look at life through. And in reality, and there's certainly many more, our guests was closer to your age. But in the middle, really held is he he's born in 84. So I guess he's just three years and then I'm nine years. So it's not that very much in the middle, but I think because his, his mom ruining everything, nevermind. I keep seeing him. I don't want to give it. It's okay. Well, yeah, I guess I'm actually fine saying that the guest who you dance for was a man. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. To say that actually. Yeah. I don't think I would have danced for a woman. I, the level that is a no. Yeah. Yeah. Unless, oh God, I can imagine a case where like, again, Taylor Swift is so fucking confident. And if I said like, I love your song, such and such, and I dance to it every chance I can. Yeah. I can imagine her going, let's see it. I don't want her to do that. I know you don't, but it's, it's a conceivable scenario. Right? I mean, you just have to be like, so ready. I think Madonna would be like, yeah, go ahead and dance. Dance to material girl. I'll judge. Right. Cause she's so confident. That's true. I just like, it adds a way, it adds another layer. If I danced for Sabrina Carpenter, it would be really a rough look for me. I think for Taylor also, although like, again, because look, if you're dancing for one of these people, that's viral. Like everyone's going to see it. Speaking of opinions. If you, if, if, if I dance for Sabrina Carpenter and you've danced, yeah, I'd be the laughing stock of America. Everyone in the whole world would see it and make an opinion. Yeah. They'd say she hated it. Even if she was saying, I love it. I love it. I love it. She was forced to say she loved it. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, we're already going to deal with that when we put this out. He might have to do a, he might have to make a statement publicly. I consented. I truly enjoy it. I'm no longer in that situation and I still like it. And he made us, he made us put it up. He said, you better not cut that. So, okay, wait. Yeah. That guest is, is kind of in between us. Their musical tastes were very informed by my same musical tastes. Uh-huh. So, and that way I think we felt closer in age, but it was an illusion. It was an illusion of the same references. I can be so tricky in that way. Like, cause for you, John Hughes is obviously you're in this business and you know about John Hughes. I love John Hughes. But John Hughes wasn't seminal work for you, was it? Other than Home Alone. Yeah. Home Alone is my touchstone. But the other stuff. I mean, I saw it. Like, I saw it. I saw Sixteen Candles and I saw, and Breakfast Club was, was a big deal. Yeah. But it was a big deal as like, yeah, it wasn't newly a big deal. It was like, yeah, this is something from. The way back. The before times that like supposed to hold up and be cool. It's like cool if you like it. Sure, sure, sure. And Callie had a Breakfast Club poster. Yeah. That's a cool move. Cause she was cool. Yep, yep. And she like knew movies. Yeah. That, that was that. She should have gone into movie publicity. Movie marketing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She should have. She did. She did. Um, okay. So she had Breakfast Club. What do you think I had? Well, Good Will Hunting. Okay. Yeah. But that one's obvious. So like, take that out of that. Okay. Oh God. Like, um, like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days or some rom-com? No, but closer. I, closer. What was it? Uh, Oceans 11. Okay. Sure. A lot of guys on that poster. A lot of man meat. We had Oceans in our dorm. Oh, in your dorm. We had Oceans 11. We had Breakfast Club. We had Clueless. That's a cool one. That's hers. I had Good Will Hunting. So cute when you're young and you're like, you want everyone to know. Display. You're like, you're defining your identity about what movies you like. It's so adorable. It is. It's just like. Every boy had a Pulp Fiction poster. Everything's just a display of your identity. And it's so tenuous. It's not yours. Yeah. It's so, well, well, Good Will Hunting, I feel, I, I feel fine about that. And Oceans 11 is in my tops. But like, I had Royal Tenenbaums, which I love. I love. I love that movie. And it's a statement. But it was a display. It was a display. Like, I'm someone who. Has elevated tastes. Yeah. Wes Anderson. Ever heard of him? I'm smart. And I'll teach you about him. Yeah. I'm smart. Yeah. Yeah. Like, in that scene, that scene with the blood going, when he's, he's committing suicide. That scene is really upsetting, actually. But great song playing. There's a lot of great music in Wes Anderson films. Great movie. Great movie. Oh, my God. Um, speaking of movies. Yes. Speaking of favorite movies of all time, guess what's knocking on, not heaven's door, but like, the movie theaters. The release schedule door? Yeah. What? Devil Wears Prada 2. That's going to be big for you. I'm so nervous. Oh. Because it means so much to me. You love the first one. I can recognize it's a well-made movie. Yeah. But obviously, it wasn't like. You don't have an emotional attachment. I called Aaron and I'm like, holy fuck, dude. Did you see fucking. Prada. I already like. I'm already shortening it because I'm so in on it. Did you see Prada? Prada. Fucking Devil Wears. Oh, God. Movie rips, brother. This woman's so fucking mean to this chick. But this chick's like, fuck this. Well, that's pretty. That's a take. Productive. But yeah, it's a very mean. Is Marilyn then? Everyone's in it. Everyone's back. They're all in it. Well, one person's not back. Who's not back? The boy. The boy is not back. The boy is not back. But he just did a commercial or something where he like is at Starbucks and is like, yeah, I'm not in it. Like they address it. It's kind of interesting. Through a Starbucks commercial? Yeah. But I'm, I'm, I'm, it's a meaningful movie to me and I don't think I ever would call and be like, dude, have you seen. Prada. Prada. I would never do that, but I watch it, you know. Oh my God. Oh, I told him to just go in. That's okay. He's trying to be polite. Okay, I need to, you're right. It's just when you write it down a lot. I am. Okay. It's okay. Don't, he's, I know he's your little brother, but act like he's just a friend. I still. I know you got to try to, it's time to kind of, you got to shift the lens. Why? It's not like I'm like going to sit here for another five minutes. It's just a quick, like, yeah, I just, I wrote it a lot. Yeah, I'm just saying, um, as, as siblings age, it can be sometimes helpful to force yourself to imagine they're just a friend. I know, but I'm saying if it was just a friend. You would say what? Fuck off, you fucking annoying little shit prick. No, I would just be like, I said it. Okay. And then I'm over it. That's just a standard. Yeah, because scroll up, you know, it's like scroll up. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's just scroll up is all. A standard biz. Yeah. Um. Want to do some facts? No. Yeah, I know. You got to go. I got to flight the couch. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Let's keep it moving. Facts. Okie doke. So this is for Tara Stoinski. Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Our returning primatologist. That was a great doc. I can't wait for you to watch it. I know. I'm really excited to watch it. That's so good. Gorillas are so interesting. Yeah. And chimps. Um, how many gorillas and chimps are there left in the world? This is according to the Coco.org Gorilla Foundation. Status of worldwide gorillas are, all are endangered. Eastern lowland gorillas found in Rwanda, Uganda. And DRC, 700 mountain gorillas and several thousand eastern lowland gorillas. Several thousand, did you say? Um, 700 mountain and several thousand. Several thousand. That's good. Down from 17,000 in 1990s. Then there's western lowland gorillas found in Cameroon, Congo, Central African Republic, some other places. As many as 100,000 western lowland gorillas. Oh, good. That's good. That's good. It says down. Yeah. 60% from past 20 to 25 years, but that was still good. It's not 600 or 250 that they were down to at one point. Yeah. Cross river gorillas that live on the border of Cameroon and Nigeria, 200 to 300 total. These are the most endangered subspecies. Then mountain gorillas, um, count as a thousand. Up from 700, 10 years ago. So that's good. Chimps. Chimps are between 170,000. And 300,000 chimps in the wild. Okay. They're also endangered. Oh, are gorillas born at four pounds and die at 450 pounds? Gorillas weigh, yeah, four pounds, 1.4 to 1.8 kilograms at birth. And full-grown male gorillas weigh between 300 and 485 pounds. 485. And females 200 to 250. Do gorillas see in the same color as us? It says couldn't find a reliable source confirming it, but it appears that gorillas see very similarly. To humans full color spectrum. There was a study done in 2008 proving that gorillas and chimps have color preferences supporting that. Yeah, I think any animal that subsists largely on fruit is going to develop that. And then our gorillas sense of smell better than ours. Gorillas depend more on sight than smell unlike monkeys. They have a good smell though, can sense sweat on humans. Uh-oh. Oh, fuck. For you. I might have to wear deodorant the day I go back home. I might have to wear deodorant the day I go back. Or the musk of an unknown gorilla. They can smell that. Males use a female's odor to determine her reproductive status. Sure. That's it. Well, I had watched the doc with the girls, and then of course it renewed. They didn't want to go to Africa so bad. And I've been telling Lincoln, as I said in the episode, that I would take her when she was 16, which would put Delta at? 14. 14. And what's the age to track? 15. So she's got to be 17. So I had to. I had to give bad news. Uh-oh. Did everyone get upset? Well, it's great actually, because any time you can force your children to make hard decisions, I think it's good practice. Yeah. And I said, "So listen, I kind of got good news and bad news. The good news is you don't have to be 18." I was fearful that you had to be an adult, but you do have to be 15. Yeah. No. Yes. Yeah. You have to be 15, which means, Lincoln, we can't go till you're 17. She's like, "Why?" And I'm like, "We're not leaving Delta in a hotel while we go." Yeah. You guys could go in. Oh, when are you supposed to go? Well, that's another thing. I would only, because I did it this way the one time and it was perfect, which is we went in the rainy season, so nobody's there. And I love that. Which is when? I want to say it's spring-ish. Oh, okay. Because I was going to say, if you go in December, she could be 16. You just nailed it. If I went on March 26th, Delta will be 15 and Lincoln will be 16. Yeah. I don't have a problem. Anyways, I was like, "Well, look, so now you're going to pick. You wait an extra year and get to go see gorillas or go at 16 and we don't see gorillas." Yeah. And they chose right. Sophie's choice. I don't know. They haven't given me an official verdict yet, but. Oh. I see. I think probably in Lincoln's mind, there's still a way to go at 16 and not bring Delta, which would be a natural sibling response. Well, no. She'll go at 16 and Delta will be 15 at the beginning of the year. Wow. I didn't even do that math. Idiot. Yeah. There's three months where they're the same age. Yeah. Well, one year apart. Not really, but we're one year apart. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, that's it. That's it. Watch that doc. It's phenomenal. Yeah. Oh, I didn't give my pledge for the other thing in the fact check. Oh. I'm watching this reality show called Secret Millionaire. Ooh. Peter Serafinowicz is the host of it. Okay. Do you remember who he is? He's a comedian. Oh. He's English. Oh. I'm a big fan of him. I'm a big fan of him.