You know, Ukrainians are a hard-headed lot and they have an enormous sense of freedom
drive to be free.
It's an understanding that it's either you live free or you're dead.
You know, life in the toy like zone is no life and it's not worth living.
And so they go for the max, which is, you know, freedom.
They see every day what people in Western Europe have stopped understanding that you can
lose your freedom tomorrow very easily.
Look at the United States, right?
But if you want to remain free, you really need to do something every day in order to retain
it.
And so I'm actually quite worried about what is going to happen in the United States because
people in this beacon of democracy have no history of resistance against an authoritarian
or a totalitarian regime.
It's one thing when you talk about it, the second is it when you actually need to do something.
Put as narrative has always been that Maidan was organized by the Americans.
Actually, I think the Americans can use a bunch of Ukrainians to teach them how to have
Maidan in Washington D.C.
Hello and welcome to Talking Ukraine in English.
My guest today is Robert Van Vorin, who is a Canadian-born Dutch educated based in Lithuania
working in Ukraine, human rights activist, political scientist, mental health specialist
that I am really interested to talk to today and some of the work he's been doing now in
over the years or decades really at this point in Ukraine.
And also you're in K of right now, so we want to also get your take on current events
and what the feeling and mood is like over there.
But why don't we just do a quick little backstory of, you know, give us like your two-minute
pitch of who is Robert Van Vorin, if someone does it no, and like, why are you qualified
to talk about Ukraine?
You have an extensive resume, I know.
We can try to get like, you know, the elevator pitch, maybe.
So basically, I mean, you'll push the right button, so I'm a human rights activist.
I got involved in human rights in the then Soviet Union in 1977, was mainly interested
in dissidents winding up its psychedelic hospital for political reasons, a set up an organization
in '78, then established what is now the federation global initiative on Sakaiich in 1980.
So 45 years ago, this is our celebration year.
And I was a career to the human rights movement in the Soviet Union for 10 years.
And then in 1990, we started working the field of reforming metal health care services
in the then still Soviet Union.
And my first visit to Ukraine was in 1990.
My friend, Semyon Bluzman, who served 10 years in Cabin Axel for opposing the political
abuse of Sakaiich right here, said, well, you know, why are you all the time coming to
Moscow?
Just go to Kiev.
It's much more interesting.
There is nobody there.
You can do anything you want.
And so I came here in the summer 1990 and didn't go back to Moscow for 15 years.
And now, of course, since my dawn, I'd better, it would be a one-way ticket going to
Moscow.
So I've been working here now for, well, what is it, 35 years, mental health care, human
rights, so the crossroads between the two.
And for me, Ukraine is like home before COVID, I would come here two times, two, three times
a month.
Then it was easy.
I could fly in in the morning, fly out in the evening.
And since the invasion in '22, I come here basically every month, initially just to be with
my friends, but then gradually develop more and more projects that are related to the
war.
And now I'm completely overwhelmed with all the things that we're doing here.
But it's really good to be here.
For me, it's easier to be here than in Vilnius because here I'm with my friends.
I know what's happening.
I hear the, you know, the air defense, I hear the shared heads.
And so I don't have to worry because I'm in it myself.
Yeah, I mean, I feel like there's maybe like, it's easier to, you know, if you're passionate
about this cause, it's easier to be there and be around people who are of the same mindset
than being in Europe, even if it's Eastern Europe, where people are still like removed
from that to some degree, right?
Is that?
And so, you know, so I live in Lithuania, Lithuania is good because it's a frontline state.
We understand that we are quite possibly the next.
And so the mentality in Lithuania is focused on war, the possibility of war.
And that is psychologically much more easy to deal with.
And I go to, for instance, the Netherlands, where I still have my kids and the financial
administration of my foundation, I feel very uncomfortable because they have no idea what
is happening.
And even though there are people that are supporting Ukraine, the war is so far off that I'm always
happy when I get on the plane back to Vilnius because then I, you know, I'm in a more pleasant
psychological environment, even though the threat is there.
But maybe that does actually, exactly why it makes it easier there.
Yeah, I would say it's similar in Germany here where there's, you know, it's very far
removed for a lot of the people here except for like, you know, the percentage of people
who are really actively still involved.
I mean, I guess people have become tired of it.
It's somewhere out there and, you know, the people want to go on with their lives.
And, you know, the novelty of it has sort of worn off and it's like, okay, it's not my
problem.
Yeah, that fatigue is, you know, I think that fatigue is everywhere I see it in the number
of donations that we get, the number of people that are engaged.
I noticed it here with my friends, you know, three years of war has really had an impact.
The other day I was talking to a friend who, you know, couldn't sleep during the night
because of the alarms and she was telling that she now just sleeps, you know, it's, she
got so used to the alarms every night that it's like living next to the railroad track.
You get used to the sounds and that's it, right?
I never really had a problem with the alarms because I just sleep.
The only time when I wake up is when, you know, when the air defense is working and the
manage to hit a shahed or something else and then you have these loud bends.
And then you wonder what to do, go down, not go down, you know, get yourself dressed.
So I never make it further than getting dressed and looking out the window if I see anything
and then the kind of calms down and go back to bed.
You know, it's, for me, for me, it's, but I taught myself this in the 1980s when I was
a career to the human rights movement is you need to put yourself in a psychological
state that you, you know, it's kind of defense mechanism that it doesn't really touch you.
So I always tell myself that, you know, there's a bigger chance to be run over by a tremor
and answer them than being hit by a missile here in, in Kiev, all right?
It's, and when you're outside, you don't really realize how huge this country is and
that, you know, even when it's a intense night of bombardments, it's only very few places
that are actually touched upon, right?
The vast territory is basically living as if there is no war.
It's this very paradoxical situation.
I'm now on, and Padil, on Sagadashinova, when you go here out in the evening, you know,
all the bars are open, all the restaurants are open.
It's as if there is no war going on, all right?
And that makes it also, or a lot of my friends who are at the front line, very difficult to
come here because they know what is happening there.
And they, you know, when they're here, their buddies are there being killed.
And so usually when they get out, they just want to go back, you know, they want to go
back to the front because it's safe in a strange way, right?
Yeah, I mean, that's one thing I want to get into when we talk about veterans and mental
health and that kind of thing, but before we start to get into that, I mean, you're in
cave now, you know, this has been like a couple of weeks since the Zelensky and Trump sort
of blow up in the office and the Trump, you know, pivot to Russia.
I mean, he's always been had a special place in his heart for Russia, it seems.
But like now it's become more apparent to everyone.
Um, I mean, what's the mood on the ground in Ukraine and with the people you've talked
about, like, do they, you know, like do they feel like, oh, Zelensky should sort of like
try to find some kind of agreement with Trump, or do they feel like?
you know, like if Trump is imposing like these Russian, you know, propositions onto Ukraine,
which are really in Russia's favor that Ukraine needs to just break with American support.
I mean, what's. Well, you know, Trump, I mean, you can do all podcast or even five of them about Trump on his background.
The guy is a malignant narcissist. He's a psychopath. He loves dictators.
He's crazy about Putin. He's crazy about Kim Jong.
This is the type of people that he can talk to because basically he functions like a couple, like a mafia boss.
And so this, you know, setting there in the oval, oval, oval room, that was a typical mafia meeting, you know,
to pull someone down and to, you know, completely orchestrated. Everything was preset.
Whatever Zelensky would have done except go on his knees and lick Trump's boots, you know, this would have happened.
It's very clear.
So I think, you know, the more Trump pushes, the more support Zelensky gets here.
As you can see in the polls, you know, it's going up quite steeply. Trump is going down. Zelensky is going up.
People are really tired of the war. I have friends who spend their whole day in being part of the, you know, the war effort.
And who say, well, you know, I really just want peace, you know, let's get this over with.
But not on the terms that Putin is imposing or that Trump wants, right?
People understand that the eastern part, the territories that are now occupied are gone for a while.
There are a lot of people talking about the kind of German scenario, you know, you lose them for decades.
But eventually they will come back. Crimea is a very sad story because, you know, because of the Crimean Tatars who are horribly repressed.
But the interest among Ukrainians for Crimean Tatars is actually quite limited. It was all the time, right?
And also before 2014, before the annexation. And so I think there is a war fatigue, but there is also a absolute determination not to give up this country and not to agree to any imposed kind of pseudo peace, right?
And then, rather, just keep on fighting and try to get rid of these bastards.
So, you know, my problem with a lot of what is being set outside the country is, you know, I'm invited to conferences, et cetera, et cetera.
And very often the talk is that, oh, we are going to win this war. And oh, we're going to rebuild the country. And oh, everything will be perfect.
And actually, whatever happens, the future for Ukraine is extremely difficult. It's going to be a catastrophe. Whatever, whatever happens, it's going to be a catastrophe.
Because I think a lot of the people that left the country will not come back. So there will be a lack of workforce. The psychological consequences are huge. If you scale down the armed forces to, you know, what is being discussed, like 500,000, you will have 500,000 people going back home.
Many of whom who have seen the horrible things at the frontline. So this will cause put an enormous pressure on society, which is not ready for this.
The women and children that go back who have been living outside the country will be faced with husbands, fathers, brothers who have been at the frontline.
So you can imagine domestic violence. You can imagine the level of divorce. One of the areas in which I'm working is trying to prepare the penitentiary service for the influx of veterans.
Now they start to realize that there will be thousands that will wind up in the prison. So what are you going to do with them? How are you going to separate them from the criminals?
And so you're looking at a disaster area. And I think, I think it's very important to, you know, be real to really understand that this is going to happen because otherwise you cannot prepare yourself for this.
And I think that story needs to be told. So usually I'm like, there was a conference in Vilnius two weeks ago and, you know, everybody was saying, well, let's end our talk optimistically. Well, I cannot end my talk optimistically because I'm very much an optimist, but I'm also a realist.
Right. And I know what is going to happen here. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I've said, you know, and sort of personal conversations that to some degree Putin has achieved his aims of disrupting Ukrainian society to the, you know, without physically taking over like all of Ukrainian territory because he's created so much, you know, family separation and.
And Trump, you know, physical trauma, mental trauma, I mean, you know, the war, you know, for us, who haven't seen it firsthand, it's even hard to comprehend on the scale that it's happening.
And like, what are the repercussions, you know, from, from this, you know, violence, this, this intense violence that, you know, was only just in like books that, you know, like in our lifetime, I mean, you.
You've been working in this region for a while, and this was something like that was from the past that you, you know, like you didn't think that this would happen today, but, but it has.
And it's, it's like impossible, I think to really comprehend the devastation within the society that is happening beyond, you know, just what's happening on the front line.
That's, that's what I think is interesting about like where your focus is at because that's, that's, you know, where you're, weren't you, you're specialized in and that's not talked about so.
You know, the, quite a lot of my friends have joined the army in one way or another, you know, they're in grown units, you know, they're at the frontline, or they have been wounded, they came back, they are trying to reintegrate into a kind of civil society and still, you know, participate in the defense of the country.
The strange thing is also for myself is that you, in a way, get used to the destruction, the, the mental and the physical destruction, also the buildings.
For instance, you know, I did a lot of work in the Nijewska Oblast in Slavjansk, so you have to cross this bloody narrow bridge in Izum, right, when you're heading east. And I've been back to Izum at the end of last year, and basically every second building has been, you know, hit or partially destroyed or fully destroyed.
And it doesn't invoke any strange extra emotion almost, you know, it's, you've got so used to destruction by what you see on your telegram channels, that when you see it in real life, it fits, you know, this is the new kind of the new life, the new environment.
What is, I think when talking to people there is the, what is really devastating, you know, they had the Russians once, with all the consequences, you know, outside Izum, you have this mass grave in the forest, where 400 people were buried, who were murdered in the cellars, you know, during the Soviet Russian occupation.
But what is very strong, there is the fear that they might be coming back, they understand that if the Russians come back, what is going to happen, right, because this is with such a vengeance, it's pure destruction, kill whatever you can kill.
And yeah, I think you're right, I put in, you know, put in the two things, one is he created the enormous destruction, which will take generations for this country to recover from.
But he also has been extremely effective in nation building, you know, I remember it in the 1990s, you know, it was not only Westerners who said, well, Ukraine, what is Ukraine, you know, it might not last, it will kind of disappear.
Right, there were a lot of Ukrainians that I knew, they had the Ukrainian passport, for them it had no emotional connotation, my down change that fundamentally.
And this war has, you know, made Ukraine a, probably as far as national feeling, the strongest country on the European continent.
And so in that sense, you know, Hitler wanted to have a white Germany audience, you know, with only blown people, et cetera, et cetera.
I remember 10, 15 years ago, I went with my then chairman to a German city just across the border from Germany.
His family, 90% of his family was killed in the Holocaust, and he was sitting there with a big smile on his face, because you could almost see no white blonde, you know, German on the streets.
So, heatless.
tried one thing and got exactly the opposite and I think the same counts were put in you know he tried one
thing he will get exactly the opposite and this is a free democrat the country and with people who
understands what it means to be free and that freedom is something that you can lose easily and
there's something that you have to fight for it so this is exactly what he didn't want yeah I mean
he turned a lot of these pro-russian people living in Ukraine who were Ukrainians to have to or maybe
were neutral to have to choose which side they're on and I think the majority of them has chosen
Ukraine but do you think that message has gotten through to him like you know I sort of like didn't
believe he would ever do this because like it would be even if they were able to conquer that
territory I mean the invasion to begin with like how do you hold it right like with so much like
anti-russian sentiment but they had believed I think they're on propaganda where you know they
believed there was just like a few radicals who were sort of these you know patriots of Ukraine
which they call Nazis then everyone else wanted Russia there and you know after three years of war
I'm not I'm still not sure if they if they understand you know they think like if do they think like
America and NATO is like doing all this you know like or do they understand that this is resistance
from Ukrainians you know like from the population you know I think there is a difference between
kind of the average Russian on the street and Vladimir Putin we've always been thinking that Putin
was a kind of second grade KJB officer because he was based in Dreslin and not in Berlin actually
Dreslin was much more important than Berlin because in Dreslin there were no Americans, no Brits,
no French and they could do whatever they wanted and so it's the station in Dreslin that was running
the wrote army fraction in Germany you know doing all this supposed to work right so I think Putin
is actually a top-level KJB officer but even worse he is for me the perfect example of someone
without any sense of an empathy there is a beautiful book written by a guy called Simont Barren Cohen
he is the cousin of Borat but he is a professor of psychology in written and he has written
this book the signs of evil and explains how people can become mass murderer and if you read
this book it's like you're reading a biography of Vladimir Putin so he doesn't care
for one minute that you know they're now close to 900,000 dead and wounded as a result of this war
he doesn't care that Kurtzko Oblast you know is destroyed they blatantly say well we have no
money to help you you know sort it out yourselves he is only interested in two things one is money
and the other is power it's a power game for him and so I don't believe that there is an
end to this war as long as he is there because for him he understands that when this war comes
to an end there will be a huge balcony from which he will fall you know he cannot live without this
war and so basically what Putin is doing is similar to what Adolf Hitler did which is that you need
to have an internal and an external enemy this is the only way in which in the German terms you
can build a vulgar mineshaft a unity among your people so for Hitler it was the Jews on the
inside and the allies on the outside for Putin it's the fifth column you know the liberals
in the country and then the outside is NATO and in particular the bloody fascists here in Kiev
you know the Kiev gunta as they call it and then there is this wonderful mix of anti-Semitism of
course which is you know part of the philosophy of Putin but also part of the philosophy of Trump
these two are actually you know they are brothers in arms you can say right put his narrative has
always been that Maidan was organized by the Americans actually I think the Americans can use
a bunch of Ukrainians to teach them how to have a Maidan in Washington DC right yeah absolutely
absolutely Americans need to wake up a little to what's happening too but like you said it's
happening so fast I wanted to get back to something that you mentioned when we were talking
about the Russians and like if they come back but they're basically like a killing machine and
I'm sort of you know so it's not just Putin right so so the Russian population generally supports
this war and is ready to commit you know atrocities and do like depraving things to humans
and innocent civilians like like how do they get psychologically to that point like why do I
don't know like where is like the the humanists in this you know I mean supposedly they're going
into defend you know Russian speakers but they're committing all these atrocities against
Russian speaking people primarily because those are the regions they've occupied so like how do
they get there to that point where they're able to like do this and take pleasure of it and torture
and rape and like I don't know like to me it's just like I can't I can't understand it you know
like I don't do you have any thoughts about like how do they get to this cold blooded sort of hatred
well you know I can give you a very nice example like about I think 20 years ago we organized
a seminar here in the central site at a hospital in Kiev the public by an American who had
schizophrenia and his he had this respect seminar talking in three four hours why you should respect
your person your patient you're the people with mental illness and it's beautiful seminar
and it came to an end and then one of the psychiatrists got up and said well uh uh Mr. Sleck
you know you have a wonderful presentation but you know there is one problem you want us to
treat patients as human beings but what to do when we ourselves are being treated like cattle
and you know this is the the crux the the Russian population are people who have no human
value whatsoever today you're alive to where you're dead nobody is going to you know
wink because of this it's part of being alive you're nothing so that means that other people
are also nothing and if you combine that with you know the the usual consequence of war when
moral values and the respect for other people goes down the drain you create a population that can
be turned easily into a murder machine right and you know there has been a lot of research
about who were part of the killing machinery in the Nazi period during the Second World War
and one thing that comes out very strongly is that most of the killers were ordinary people
they were you know bakers administrators civil servants you know people who follow orders who tell
what they're being told to do not psychopaths psychopaths are very difficult to manage a killing
machine doesn't need psychopath they need people who just follow orders and don't think themselves
and the Russian population has been you know downgraded to a level that it was in the worst
Stalinist period so I mean Ukraine has developed enormously since it became independent
it's a European country by a large Ukrainians are really your normal thinking freedom loving
European people Russia has had this slow start at the beginning in the you know late 80s beginning
of the 90s and then starting already in 1993 they have been sliding and now they're back to
1937 so we've lost everything that has been done there in order to turn Russia into a normal country
and I think it will take generations before that country is normal so I think the only thing that
country done is basically put a wall around that country and try to make sure that they cannot
do the same to other nations right and that is something that from doesn't understand because
he has an Elon Musk next to him who has no empathy who's even saying that empathy is that
you know it's the it's the the worst for mankind he fits beautifully also in this book The Science
of Evil right and so he's surrounding himself with people who are just I don't know look at the
face of this Marco Rubio when you know in the in the in the in the in the oval office he has people
like vans who are just his laptop you know they're they're they're they're they're barking when he
says that they that they need to bark so my feeling about Russia is you know I have still a few
Russian friends that I can communicate with but the majority for me are
just the lost cause. I'm not going to waste any energy on that anymore. You know, we tried in
the early 90s and it's, it's more a matter of who is the one to turn off the light, the last one
to turn off the light. I think that, you know, goes to the argument that if Russia has a victory here
that they can walk away with, that just makes a continuation of their society as it is, continue,
versus if there's any hope for change within Russia, they need to like have a loss here, you know,
like, like Germany changed because they lost. I mean, Germany became occupied and there was like
denotification, like real denotification happening. That's not going to happen in Russia, but
you know, somehow that, you know, for there to be changed within Russian society,
they need to be knocked out, or getting, and then there needs to be an implosion, you know.
There is no way that that country can continue the size that it is now, the composition that it
is now, but I don't see that happening at least not in the future. And so the only thing you can do
is, you know, put this wall around, you know, maybe not physical, but at least militarily.
Make sure that they cannot do the same to any of the other countries that are neighboring them.
And that's what I think Trump fails to see, or he doesn't care about it, you know, like I posted
about this the other day, like you mentioned, he's this malignant narcissist, they, you know, he just
looks what, how can I benefit from this? Okay, so if I can extract some wealth to get money back
from the minerals, gray, I can pressure them there. That's my leverage. They're in a weak position.
I hope, you know, I have leverage over that. If I can, you know, get a ceasefire, and they're
they're killing to stop on, you know, it's easier to do it on Russia's terms, then I can claim
the Nobel Peace Prize, and then I will get, you know, the credit. And that's how he thinks.
He doesn't think about what's going to happen, you know, after he leaves office, or, you know,
a couple of years from now, or, you know, like it's just not, he just doesn't give a shit about that.
Well, he's, he's a rotten real estate broker from New York, right, who is just doing dirty business
in order to get more wealthy than he is. And actually, he's a very bad businessman. I mean, he
has been bankrupt for six times, you know, he's running down the, the American economy with his
terrible words. And it's complete, you know, it's all baked air, you know, what is happening.
But people are suffering. People are dying here at the front, you know, everything that happens,
the moment they are not sharing intelligence, the moment they're not giving arms, you know,
people are dying because of that bastard in the White House. You know, this is, I think, in my
perspective, this is criminal, and he's responsible for it. Yeah, I mean, I'm surprised there were
so many Republicans are going along with it too, they're just so afraid of, you know, getting his
scorn that they're not willing to stand up for, for what's, they know is right. I mean, it's,
it's absurd. You know, a friend of mine wrote a book about 15 years ago, the first 100 days of
Otto Hitler. And so people forget that Hitler came to power democratically and that democratic
Germany voted themselves out. And that in 100 days he changed a democratic society into into a
totalitarian one. And Trump is halfway now, you know, I think it's now the 49th day of his,
of his rule. He's still has 50 days to go. And he's really trying hard. He's trying hard. And so,
you know, in any society, I always, I'm telling my students, 90, 95% of the population just
goes along. Compliance, you know, survive, pretend that it doesn't concern you. You have a very
small portion, I don't know, 3% that resists, that goes into the resistance. And you have a very
small portion that collaborates. But the vast gray, you know, majority is doesn't concern me, doesn't
concern me. Please don't ask me to, you know, take a position. Because I have a job, I have a car,
I have my television, I need to go my holiday, I have kids, I have a wife, you know, this type of
stuff. And that enables people like Trump to do what they do. Yeah, yeah. You know, maybe when
they realize that things are getting more expensive, they might care more. Eggs, eggs.
Comes down to the eggs. Exactly. I wanted to talk a little about the work you're doing in
Ukraine also. So, you know, I did, I worked as a translator for a New York Times story about this
center that works with kids who parents or fathers have died on the front. So, you know,
they may be, have no more parents or usually one parent, the mother is still around.
But it was like a retreat, you know, it was a therapeutic center. I don't, I think it was in
Western Ukraine somewhere. And, you know, this, I listened to like all the raw interviews and
translated them. And it was brutal. I mean, it was, you know, like, I mean, it was inspiring that
the strength that these kids have, but it was just so sad and tragic. And, you know, they,
they found some, some sort of comfort in being together with other kids who were in that situation
and forming like a support group. And really like, yeah, after working on this, I was like,
man, I just want to go there and like be with these kids and like, you know, be like a father figure
for them or something, you know, to sort of like fill in that gap in their life. I mean, it was just
not, I'll send it to you later, but like, that is going to happen on such a scale that I can't
imagine. And, and what is, you know, what is the type of work that needs to be done in Ukraine
in the coming years? And what are you doing specifically? Oh, so, you know, interestingly for kids,
at the end of 23, I found in Berlin at the rehab center of the German Bundeswehr, a booklet that they
made for a military who came back from deployment and had to explain to their kids why they behave
differently, you know, why they were aggressive or depressed or couldn't stand large sounds. And it's
a very nice small book with mostly drawings that a military can take, sit on the couch with the
kids next to him and explain, you know, what, what is happening? And so we got copyright. We
published it in October last year, 5,000 copies. They were gone in two months. We now, next week,
we get the next 10,000. They are basically all pre-ordered. So we are now collecting money for
the next 10,000. And this is a book that we will need hundreds or thousands, you know, here.
Because, you know, if you have a million people at the front line or in the armed forces,
how many kids are affected by, you know, their parent being at risk is already, you know, enough.
And then we got a request to do a similar book for children whose parent had died.
Because a book about Papa coming back and being depressed is, you know, rather painful when Papa
is not coming back. And so I looked around in Europe and North America, Australia for this
type of literature. And it doesn't fit because the kids there, they lose their parent, but they're
living in a free, usually wealthy environment or at least normal life, right? Peace. And the kids
here lose their parent, but are at the same time at war, in a country at war. They hear the
night sirens, you know, they hear the bombings, they see what is happening. And so we are now going
to work with the authors in creating a book specific to you for this group, of which there are
already tens and tens of thousands, right? These are large, large numbers. So basically what we are
doing is trying to use our limited resources as effectively as possible. We are now working on
setting up a knowledge center at Sheffield University here in Kiev, the Veteran Mental Health Center
of Excellence, which will focus on research, methodology and training. We're setting up an e-learning
platform with modules that people can freely use. The first one is finished by the end of this
month, which is on community resilience. There's another one coming on working with families,
peer-to-peer support. We are working on a smartphone app for operational resilience for people
at the frontline. What to do when they feel that they're meant to help the slide being because
of the fighting where they see their body going catatonic, for instance. So what do you do to pull
them out of such a situation? And so, you know, we have a whole range of projects. As I said,
we're working in a penitentiary system. We set up three new appraisement to health units,
one in Drohobic, which is specializing in veterans, winding it up in the prison system.
We're working on training Ukrainian artists to become our therapists for military and veterans.
So,
you know, we're trying to do whatever we can to stem the tide as it were, or psychological
distress. And then there is one project we are now, you know, getting gearing up is
palliative care. Because the, the sad thing is that the interest in people who have been
wounded, who have been wounded to such an extent that they cannot go back to the frontline
is pretty minimal, right? So, military who have been wounded and have been patched up,
but they are not able to work or they cannot see anymore or, you know, they have a combination
of problems, they're usually sent home and not rehabilitated. And you need to rehabilitate
them because they need to be part of society. And then there is the, the group of military
that have been wounded to such an extent that you know that they are almost certainly going
to die. And you need to allow them to die in dignity. So, there is one center outside
key of which is dealing with this category of, of patients. And, you know, they're, the
amazing work with almost nothing. And nobody is really interested in them. They don't
appear in the press, they don't get, they don't have foreign donors. And so we decided
that this is a category that we have to, you know, take care of as well. And so we're
now, you know, gearing up to develop a project in, in, for this, palliative care of patients.
And there are now maybe, I don't know, hundreds, five, six hundred, nobody gives the data,
but there will be many more coming, that's absolutely certain. And so, you know, the country
needs to prepare it itself for it, but it likes it or not. How, how did they, when you
say the rehabilitate, you know, the ones who aren't in the category where, you know, they're
close to passing away, but the ones who, you know, have a chance to reintegrate in society
and need rehabilitation, like, what's the needy gritty of that? Like, what, what do they
need? Do they need, you know, job training? Do they need to talk to someone about what
the experience? I don't know, like, what does that look like, like tangibly? Like, what,
you know, it, it, it, there are all kinds of different layers, different categories. The,
the, the, the, employment is a very important element, you know, to ring, help, military,
return to civilian life. If you have a job, you have a purpose, though, in society.
Yeah. Well, you have an income, you have a purpose. And so, I think for them, you know,
part of them could be employed for peer-to-peer work, or for instance, set up small workshops
where you can repair prosthesis, you know, this type of stuff. The people that I am now,
was now referring to are the ones that are, you know, the wounds have healed, but they cannot walk,
because nobody took time to help them to learn walking again. They have lost their eyesight,
you know, but nobody has taught them how to deal with this disability. Those who have only
one stump left, you know, lost their arm and legs. I mean, there are lots and lots of these,
because there's war, the drone warfare, the IUD warfare has resulted in horrendous, you know, wounds
that really disabled people. And so, this is very time consuming, you know, in any normal country,
a person would be a rehabilitation for, I don't know, have a year, maybe a year even.
But here everything has to be quick, quick, quick, because, you know, we need people back at the
front line, and all the resources are going in that direction. But, you know, the country needs
to prepare itself also for life after the war, when you have these people in your society,
and you want to avoid that they wind up in these social care homes, these psychological
internats, because there's nobody there to take care of them. And these are men and women who
have given their life for their country, you know, there is a moral obligation to help them,
and to help them to be part of society. So, you know, traditionally, I'm usually looking at the
areas in this country that nobody is interested in. So, this is, again, one of those areas.
And so, we are doing what we can. That's basically, you know, my message.
And where do you get funding from? Or do you, do you get private funding? Do you get grants?
Like, is there some way someone who's listening to this might be able to get involved or help you,
or support anything? Well, you know, our donors are varies from governments. We get a lot of
support from the Dutch government. We get money from the British foreign office. We get money
sometimes from psychiatric associations. We get private money. We get it sometimes churches,
you know, their collection. They send their money. There are some businesses here in Ukraine,
who provide support. You know, we are now reconstructing this 1,300 square meters,
where our veteran and the health center of excellence will be. And the demolition is being done
by Dobrabat, which is a volunteer organization. So, you know, wherever we can get support from,
you know, we are extremely grateful. So, all little donations together, you know,
enable us to do big things, basically. So, how can someone contact you if they want to just,
you know, reach out to you? Well, the easiest is for you, email
[email protected],
[email protected]. And then I will get back to them and, you know, explain what we're
doing and send materials. It's the easiest way. Okay. So, there's one more sort of question
topic I wanted to ask you. You know, maybe this will be like a good one to end on. But
what does it take for these people, the Ukrainians, to continue to go to war,
knowing that they could die, that they're leaving their families? Like, I mean, it's been three years.
Now, I understand like people are, you know, it's harder to find people to do it.
But initially, you know, there was a big voluntary drive of people and like, what, I mean,
what keeps them going psychologically? Where they are willing to keep fighting, I guess. Like,
have you any insights into like, like, you know, where does, I would say courage. Where does this
courage and strength come from? You know, Ukrainians are a hard-headed lot. And they have an enormous
sense of freedom, drive to be free. And so, I've seen it after my adon, you know, like one of my friends,
he is a historian and he volunteered after my adon. He basically has been at the front ever since.
It's an understanding that it's either you live three or your dead, you know,
life in the twilight zone is no life and it's not worth living. And so, they go 40 max, which is,
you know, freedom. They know, they see every day what people in Western Europe have stopped
understanding that you can lose your freedom tomorrow very easily. And I think this country is a fantastic example to this. I mean, this is one of the
reasons why I love coming here. You know, here I feel, among like-minded people, right? I have
the feeling that this is a life worth living for. And so do my friends, right? And the millions of
people here in this country that are together fighting off this evil which is coming from across the
border. I think it's also something about the future of their kids that they want to ensure that
they are able to live in that freedom. They're willing to sacrifice their lives for the future
that their kids and grandkids could have. I think that's a large part of what's always driven
these Ukrainian movements, Maidan, you know, like in my own personal interviews and interactions with
people. It's always like, you know, like, yeah, it's not about me. It's about my kids. So that
there is like this strong family, you know, desire for the future for generations.
Well, which is part of, you know, the, it's an aspect of being a nation that has always been,
you know, repressed, pushed, pushed around for centuries. It creates this, you know,
desire to create freedom for your future generation. You know, I feel- I have the same feeling
in Lithuania. You know, Lithuania is of course also one of those crazy countries who could have
imagined that in March 1990 they would declare independence, you know, definitely not Gorbachev,
but they did it. And look, it's now- it's a free country. It's part of the European Union,
it's part of NATO, and it's one of the strongest offenders of, you know, supported of the Ukrainians,
because they understand what the Ukrainians are going through. So for me, it's a privilege to be
able to live in one and work in the other, right? Yeah. Well, you've been doing important work,
and you know, certainly unique. You bring a unique aspect with all your experiences to every
things. So I hope you can continue. The funny thing is my uncle was 23 when he joined
the resistance in Rotterdam. He loved Rotterdam. Rotterdam was bombed the way and he got so pissed
off that he joined the resistance without understanding what actually resistance was, right? Because
there were kids they didn't really understand what the Germans were going to do. And he remained
at liberty until October 43, then he was arrested, went to seven camps, eventually died,
after having seen the Americans. So at least he was liberated. And for me he has always been
this example, right? And so Robert von Thoren is actually his name from the resistance.
It was his pseudonym, now it's my pseudonym. And nobody even knows anymore that it's my pseudonym,
it's very funny. So I'm a second generation, you know, in that sense, and I feel that I,
it's in a way it's a feeling that I have the the duty to continue his work, right? And so I've
been doing this now for 48 years. Yeah, well, it's it's unique, you know, not everyone cares to
you know, work on behalf of others as much as you have. And you know, some others select few,
again, it's a very small percentage of people who sort of dedicate their life to doing that type of
work that isn't financially, necessarily financially benefiting them. And you know, the first
priority, you know, like where you care about what's happening, like other people in the world.
It's it's definitely financially not benefiting, I can tell you, but morally, morally and spiritually,
it's extremely benefiting, you know, I know that I live, that's and that's important.
Doke Siskia. Doke Tisha Skrypoyz is a victim of the murder of a slave who was killed in the murder of a woman.
you
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