Talking to your children about money with Sir Chris Hoy

Hello, and welcome back to the Money Heroes podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan Hart. We're here to guide parents to develop children's money management skills, along with an array of brilliant money and education experts will hopefully give you the support to introduce or expand money topics at home. Hearing your stories and feedback has certainly encouraged me to continue demystifying the world of money with my children. In our last episode, Matt Carr, author of the Money Heroes Key Stage One story, Ed and Bunny Earn Some Money, spoke about the value of learning through stories. By now, you may have accessed the e-book, and if so, I hope you've enjoyed taking your child through the journey with Ed and Bunny, and if not, you can access the book on the Money Heroes platform under either the parent or teacher hub, alongside all of the other Money Heroes resources. Well, I'm really excited about our guest today, as we will shortly be welcoming none other than Olympic legend Sir Chris Hoy. Apart from being one of the UK's greatest ever athletes, Sir Chris is an award-winning children's author of the Flying Fergus book series, of course, and a mental health advocate. He's also dad of son Callum and daughter Chloe, and today we'll be talking about his experience introducing financial education and Money Heroes at home. But before I speak with Chris, we're going to focus on how to deal with money worries and managing risks and emotions associated with money, which is another theme from the primary planning framework developed by Young Money. To summarise, the framework sets out the knowledge, skills and attitudes about money for different age groups of children and young people. It's focused around four core themes and forms the basis of all of Young Money's resources and programmes. Now the first week of February was Children's Mental Health Week, and if you've been on our platform, you may have come across the Money Heroes Parent Guide, where we have a dedicated section on dealing with money worries and letting your child know that it's okay to express their concerns to you. So take a look at the Parent Guide for approaches to alleviating worries around money at MoneyHeroes.org.uk Another way to tackle worries around money is by looking at the planning framework theme, which focuses on managing risks and emotions associated with money and covers feelings about money, protecting money and much more. Getting your child to think about how does money make me feel, and understanding that feelings and emotions are linked to money is an important part of developing their skills and knowledge on the topic. Learning about the benefits of saving, keeping money safe, lending and borrowing are valuable to understand from an early age. It allows them to reflect on the action of spending or lending and how that made them feel, as well as exploring how they'll manage their money in the future, based on previous experiences they've had with money. In a previous episode, we spoke about needs and wants and how important it is to manage emotions in order to understand that we might not always be able to have the things we want. If you feel comfortable about it, you could speak about your emotions and let your child know of a purchase you couldn't make due to other responsibilities. Then follow that by offering alternatives, or showing them how to save for something over a period of time. Money heroes to buy or not to buy is an activity that gets children really in touch with answering the question, how does money make us feel? Being able to understand that people cannot always afford what they want is useful to learn from an early age. Well, I'm really looking forward to speaking to our guest today. The word legend is banded about rather a lot these days, but this guy is definitely the real deal. We welcome none other than Sir Chris Hoy, who has won a record equalling six Olympic gold medals for Great Britain as well as eleven world championships and sports personality of the year. He belongs to a rare group of sports people to be knighted by the Queen. He's the face of British cycling, who also happens to be a big advocate of money heroes resources, which we'll hear more about shortly. Since retiring, Chris has been keeping busy designing his own bike range, Hoy bikes, and becoming an award winning children's author of the Flying Fergus book series, and most recently, releasing his inspiring and confidence boosting guide for children be amazing. As an author himself, Chris understands the value of storytelling to boost children's interest in a topic, so I'm really looking forward to hearing his thoughts on engaging children through storybooks. Chris has also completed the money heroes to buy or not to buy activity with his two young children. I'm delighted to say thank you for joining us Chris. Thank you for that very kind welcome and introduction. Well, it's all true, so it's an amazing list of achievements there. Let's start with a simple one for you, Chris. Tell us why you think it's valuable to start conversations about money at home. Well, I think it's important to start at a young age because it's a life lesson and the earlier you get to grips with it, the better. I don't think it's something you necessarily learn and that's it. I think or certainly I feel I'm learning through my whole life about how to deal with money about how to be financially smart, I suppose. There's so many decisions you've got to make through your life and the earlier you start that whole process, the better. So at what point did you decide, if there was a specific point, it was time to start talking with your own children about money? I mean, is it something you actively decided to do or did it happen quite organically? Yeah, it just happened, I suppose. I mean, I've got two kids, Chloe's three and Callum's six, so Chloe's still a bit oblivious to money, but Callum is just getting to that age and I would say in the last year, particularly around Christmas, when he's getting excited about Christmas and talking about presents. And I think then because he's told that Santa Claus, obviously, is the person who brings the presents along, then it's a free reign. You can have whatever you want, but then trying to explain to him that, well, maybe that's a bit expensive or that's too much. And then his answer as well, Santa brings it. What's the problem? So trying to explain that, okay, well, let's talk to you about money and about how money is earned. And it's also difficult I think in the current pandemic when I'm at home, Santa's at home, working means going and sitting in front of the computer for a few hours. So trying to explain, well, you have to work to earn money, then you choose how to spend your money and you can't just spend it on anything, you've got to actually plan out what you're going to spend the money on. It's all a really complex notion to a six year old child. So yeah, I think it started around Christmas time last year, and it's kind of growing and growing, but it's interesting once that concept or once that notion of money starts to, the seed starts to grow, the interest definitely starts to grow over time. But you're absolutely right. I hadn't thought about that. Santa being involved in the idea of what you can and can't spend, that could be a tricky conversation, couldn't it? When speaking to parents, many of them say to me that starting conversations with their kids about money can be tricky. And we just mentioned an example. This series is all about how we engage with our children to make things much easier. So how do you find opening up those conversations? What sort of, let's call them obstacles are there? Well, I guess first of all, the biggest obstacle I think we face now is that we don't see money. So when I was growing up, when we were all growing up, we'd go into the shops with our parents and they would buy the groceries with cash. They would hand over money and then you'd see the change coming back and you were instantly understanding, you see the cash register, you see the money that the number is coming up. It was a tangible thing that you could relate to. Whereas now, everything is done either contactless or with the credit card or just an online, you open your laptop, you tap a few buttons and then tomorrow the doorbell goes and a guy arrives with a brown box for you. And it's, I think for kids, it's a very hard notion to get their head around that, well, first of all, where does the money come from? How do you get the money in the first place? While you work for it, you earn it. Well, how do you earn it then? And it's, I think it's much tougher for kids nowadays to get the concept of earning money and also how you spend it. But yeah, teaching it now, I think it's trying to make it interesting, trying to find ways to engage with kids. If you can make things play rather than work, then they're far more likely to want to do it. You know, we had the worksheet to try and go through with Callum that you mentioned earlier on that, you know, I had this worksheet that you guys had and I thought, right, this is going to be great. We're going to sit down. And I think because perhaps because we've been doing homeschooling and the notion of what looked like potentially more worksheets and more work, that just, he just switched off and he wasn't engaging and he wasn't, he wasn't wanting to get involved with that. So, so then on his suggestion, he started up his own little shop and he said, well, I could be a shopkeeper. And here are my toys and he put little labels on with prices on them. And then I pretend to be the shopkeeper, the customer coming into the shop. And I would buy some, buy some of his goods from his shop by using coins that we had. And then he would give me the change and he was doing a bit of arithmetic. And just I think that making it a game, it seemed to engage him more and he seemed to enjoy it more. But the worksheet for him personally at this stage, I think he was a bit of a, that was a, turned him off a little bit. He switched off when he saw that. It just shows you, doesn't it? How if you just spark up the conversation, it might not necessarily go in the direction that you expect it to, but you've certainly brightened up his imagination. And that sounds like a really excellent way of, of starting a conversation with a child of that age about money. What does the term financial education mean to you? Financial education, I think it's understanding fundamentally the difference between what you want and what you need. And because there are things in life we all need and we can't live without. And I think sometimes that line gets a bit blurred and you start thinking you need this and you need to have that. And it's understanding, well actually, if I can go without this particular thing at this stage in my life and I can save my money or I can invest it wisely, then in a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years, my life, I'll be able to do a lot more exciting stuff. If I can sacrifice, you know, even, even, I don't know, just the pressure to have when you're a kid the same trainer as your friends and then as you get older, it's, you know, what car are you going to buy or what house, you know, do you need a two bedroom flat? If it's just for you, you know, why not get a one bedroom flat and invest the rest of money or save your money? And it's all these things trying to understand that, what do you need? What do you want? And that, that really for me is what it boils down to. Hmm, totally agree. In our previous episode, we introduced the Money Heroes Key Stage One story, Ed and Bunny earned some money that was launched in January. As a children's author yourself, how important and effective is it to create learning opportunities through stories? It's, well, it's incredibly effective. You know, that's why I think fables, obviously, you know, these, these children's stories, which have lasted, you know, stood the test of time, the last of generations to, to warn kids of, of, you know, certain things in life or to teach lessons, they are incredibly effective. And if you try and tell, tell a child not to do something or warn them about something, it kind of falls on deaf ears sometimes. But if you can tell it in a story, it seems to, whether it's because it's in engaging with their imagination or whether it's, it's because we remember things in pictures or some people do more than, than in words, who knows. But certainly in the stories that I've written in the Flan Fergus series, we've tried to put in, you know, lessons and morals and just themes the story without being too heavy handed to try and just get the message across that, you know, certain of the books are about teamwork and about how that not everybody, you know, we're not all born a champion that we have to work hard no matter who you are, you have to work hard at it. And if you enjoy what you do and you work as a team and you work together, and you can deal with setbacks and overcome adversity, then then you will you will win in the end. But yeah, it's I think stories and using ways to engage just just to have fun. I think if you can make things fun, kids will be far more likely to want to engage and to to listen to you. Yeah, maybe you should try Flying Fergus Goes to the Bank or Flying Fergus Get some Mortgage. Yeah, remember me when you do that. We've already spoken briefly about the money heroes to buy or not to buy activity and you explained that it was quite a challenge and that you learned another way of doing it. I mean, it is important, isn't it that we say to ourselves, okay, it's not always going to work out. It's not always going to be exactly how we want. But just keep going, keep trying and keep trying to inspire the young ones who I can hear in the background. Yeah, I apologize for that. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's understanding that every child is different. And even within a family, you know, it's incredible the difference between Calum and Chloe, and they've had the same upbringing, the same, you know, environment. And yet they're very different personalities already. So I guess it's understanding your children and knowing what works or learning what works for them and what doesn't work for them. And there's always the pressure as a parent, isn't there? It's just this feeling of, well, everyone else is doing it perfectly. You know, you look around now, you look on social media, homeschooling, all the parents that are doing these amazing things and you just think, God, we must be the worst teachers in the world. But it's I think it's the same everywhere. Everyone feels pressured to be the best they can be to help their kids, to give them the best start. And that pressure can often stifle any fun that you might have doing it. So I think if if you, as I said before, if you can find the fun element and try and engage with what your child identifies with and enjoys, then it's it's far more likely they're going to get that kind of light bulb moment and want to do more of it. And you already mentioned some already, are there other games or activities you play with your children that involve money or transactions? I mean, you mentioned the shop. Anything else you can think of? Well, I guess with with Callum, certainly he, if he if it's coming up to his birthday or to Christmas and he's looking for his list or as you know, his Christmas list for Santa, it's actually letting him go on to to Amazon or wherever and he'll look at the presents and he'll go, well, there's an airplane. Oh, lovely. Yeah. Well, how much is that? And you'll look at the, you know, it's 25 pounds. And it's like, well, do you know what? You could have five toys at five pounds, or you could have one toy at 25 pounds. And I think kids, I mean, it may not be the same for all kids. But certainly, I think when kids are quite young, they would rather have five big boxes. You know, it doesn't really matter what's in it. If it's big, it's better and then have a small gift that could be quite valuable or quite expensive. And that is in a little box. And they tend to like big, exciting boxes to rip open. So I guess understanding, okay, there's only a finite amount of money that you're going to get spent on this present. He doesn't need to know that he doesn't know need to know what that is. But to understand that actually, you know, you can you can be wise with your money and it you can your money can go a bit further if you're if you're smart in how you spend it. Yeah, it's all about the box, isn't it really? It's all about the packaging. Once they've opened it, they move on. I mean, it's very interesting what you were saying about Amazon. You know, we're all living in this more than virtual world at the moment. Everything is just a click away. And you alluded it alluded to it earlier with the fact that we don't necessarily touch real money anymore, we have contactless. And then you can literally buy things on the likes of Amazon, without even putting your credit card details in just happens automatically. And this next generation and the generation after some of them may not even ever touch money. So it is very, very important to teach them the value of it. What skills looking forward? Do you want to teach your children around money and finance? I mean, is that what it will all be about? It's about the value of money and being careful as well, because we've already in this series talked about how people can get carried away and not actually understand the process. Yeah, 100%. And that is the key thing to understand that it's, you know, to earn money, it takes a lot of work, it takes a lot of hard hard work hard, it takes time. And it doesn't just grow in trees. Literally, it's, you know, you want to get that message across that you, everything you have around you, you've had to work for. And, and it's almost more difficult to think, like, certainly for, for me, and the job I do, I don't go to a workplace nine to five, five days a week, and in a regular routine, my work, as you mentioned, in the direction, I've got my own range of bikes, so I help design those bikes and help promote them and, and all the stuff that's involved with running the business. I'm doing, you know, I'm an author, I'm working with various companies as ambassadors and promoting their companies and doing all sorts of things. So I'm not really in a normal routine. And most of the time, you know, I'll come back and it'll be like, oh, you know, I've been, been away doing this exciting thing, or maybe I've been appeared on the TV or something. And I think Callum just thinks I'm living this, this fun life where I just run around and do lots of cool things. And to a certain extent, that's, that's, you know, that is true. Yeah, come on, come on, Chris. We know it's great fun. I mean, you know, I'm incredibly lucky that I have been able to not just now, but, you know, my cycling career was a hobby. I started out riding a bike because I loved it. It was my passion. And I worked very hard at it, of course, but, you know, that was, that was a hobby that became a career. So just because it is a hobby, it doesn't mean to say you don't have to work hard at it just because, you know, it's something you enjoy. It can still be incredibly hard work. So it's, it's teaching him that there is a process you go through to earn money. Once that money is earned, because you know how hard it was to earn that money, you don't want to waste it, throw it away. You don't want to make poor choices with your money. But it's, yeah, it's life is different now, isn't it? You know, you think back to our parents' generation and their, you know, their grandparents' generation, you saved the money and then you bought whatever it was you were saving up for. You know, credit was, was not a real, a real thing apart from a mortgage, you know, everything else you saved up and you bought. And now everything is at your fingertips. You can afford whatever you want. You can get finance on this, finance on that. And it's, it's understanding, you know, the lure, the excitement of, wow, I could have that right now at the click of a button. Literally holding my phone, I could press that button and that thing could arrive my doorstep tomorrow. And, you know, it's, I guess that retailers, they understand that draw and that power and they try and tap into that emotional purchase. And it's at the risk of sounding incredibly boring. It's about trying to train yourself not to be that impulsive and to work out how much money you have each month that you can spend on things that you want. And, you know, it's, as I say, it's an ongoing process. I'm still, still learning, still training myself not to, you know, it's nice every now and again to treat yourself or treat your family or whoever. But equally, if you, if you didn't do that for a while, the money you'd save from that, you could put towards something much more significant. So yeah, it's, and also even in, in these current times, these, these very, you know, these insecure times, we don't know what's going to happen in the future in certain times. It's a great time to save money and be ready for future uncertainty. Indeed. So we're almost coming to the end of our time, Chris, today. Is there anything else you would like to add about introducing financial education as a parent? I guess talking about it, I think what I find quite helpful is having money around the cash or in the house of coins. I've got loads of two Ps, one Ps, five Ps, loads of, loads of change and having it around in not for really small kids, obviously, because you don't want any choking hazards or anything like that. But for older kids, for Callum, he's got his own little money box and, and using that for playing games, for playing shopkeeper or playing whatever, and also helping their maths as well. You know, it's, it's great for them to, they don't realise he's doing a bit of maths and a bit of arithmetic. If, if you're saying, okay, well, how much is this? That's, that's 25 pence. Right. What coins do I have here? That's a 10 pence, that's a five pence, two pence, and getting him to add it all together or equally giving him a 50 pence piece and asking for the change and having him to work it out. So I think going back to fun and games, that's the key thing. If you can make it fun, make them think they're playing a game, then they're far more likely to actually want to do it and understand the concept of it. But, you know, it takes time and I'm far from an expert at this. I'm, you know, I should be learning from some of your listeners, hopefully, but, you know, we're, we're all going through the process together as parents and you do the best you can. And it, you, no matter what you do, it's never going to be 100% right. But you try and use your initiative, learn from people who've got good advice and tips and see if it works for your kids. But you can only do your best. Totally agree. It really has been fantastic speaking with you, Chris, today. It's great to hear a parent's perspective on this topic. Thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much and good luck to all the parents out there. And thanks to all of our listeners for joining yet another episode. I hope that Sir Chris has inspired you. And if you'd like to share anything you've taken away from this episode, please go to MoneyHeroes.org.uk or get in touch at [email protected]. All the details are there. Until next time, goodbye. The Money Heroes podcast from Young Money, supported by HSBC UK, available on your favorite podcast app. Please listen and subscribe.