Talking Graphic Design With Cecilia Balemba

Hello and welcome beautiful people again to another episode of Asaba Ishtalki. And today I'm introducing someone very special Cecilia Balenba. Welcome to the show and before we start with anything, could you tell us a bit about who you are and how you first got into whatever it is you are doing? Okay, so everybody listening to me out there, I'm called Cecilia Balenba. I'm from the Star Wars region of Cameroon. Okay, what drove me into designing? I cannot really tell my story is not what I'm just going to design you would like to hear. I actually got into design without actually knowing and I was getting into design. I am always dreaming of maybe working in a communication department, but I didn't really know which department. I was thinking about maybe by myself and maybe newspaper journalism something of that sort. But unfortunately I found myself doing the technical side of communication which is definitely design. So what about Lebscu? My mom told me since I'm interested in communication I know that she has any concourse out to me. That I just try my luck and maybe go to the school. That is how I try my luck and what the exam is. I was asking people that please because everything was in French I was like okay. These different causes that this school is offering. What are they really doing? So a lady beside me just told me I saw a biography and wrote to me, I'm like okay this one. What does it mean? She just explained to me that I deals with maybe communicating through visuals. Like you are not in front of the screen, you put your newspaper, magazine, magazines and not the lack of that. Okay, this looks beautiful. I think I'm interested in this one. And that is how I go into design without knowing. It's when I came to school and we did general courses and then went to our private courses when to just study explaining that you are in this class. This is what you want to do and all that. That is how I started graphic design. Well, I didn't really dream. Like maybe from my young age, even after university in the factory in the middle maybe we do design. But I'm glad I'm reading now and I'm excited. So that is just a little bit of my background. Oh, now I started a long working design. Wow, that story is actually a story that I'm sure a lot of people can relate to because when we usually start with our lives, maybe in our teenage ages, we always write on little papers that we are going to become astronauts, doctors, pilots and all that. But as life evolves, we actually now find out what we are actually good at and dive into it. So for you, what was that moment when you felt that design was going to be more than just something which you were trying to see if it would work. What was that moment like for you? The moment where you felt like this is something that I can actually make a living from. Okay, what actually made me just say, okay, because at a certain point in time, at a certain point in time, I almost did not continue the design because when we started classes in school, I was one of the youngest in class in fact, I was a youngest. And it was a few where we're donated by men like boys. So much so I would tell them that I sure this is what we really want to do because in the beginning it was not easy. I was just emerging, being pure English, they're studying, totally studying in the school that everybody teaches to dress in French. So myself, like I usually can do this field, you press a lot of time, sleepless nights, like doing the courses. I was always the last person to catch up. Because of that one fresh was a problem and I was not really a next part with computer. That's also something I was at a national computer. I'm not like that. So my teacher was always like, I'm sure you really want to do this thing. I told my dad I would do it even my teacher proposed one time that I should do video editing because in my school, coffee design was one of the most difficult. I was out to design from logo, video editing, everything alone. So he told me that if you are not comfortable, please move to the video editing department. I don't know. I didn't want really made me to see because of my character. I have this character that if something seems difficult, I feel like that's what I'm supposed to be instead. I think my character pushed me to stay with design. It was a kind of person that I love easy going. I would have like design because all my teachers were like, please you can do something else. But my character made me feel like, what was the difficult? That is what I still want to be. So I guess that was one of the first things that made me to stay with design. This thing cannot be more than me. If I'm already there, this is what we mean. And I just started putting on my mind. I'm like, let me work. If you really guess that, then I'm going to change it before now. Let me face the challenge and decide on my own if I can do it or not. So that is just how I keep on. There are also many things to choose because I feel like, okay, you can only communicate by talking. I also communicate through vision. I'm like, okay, let me learn this on that method of communicating. I'm used to the method of communicating through TV like it's talking. Let me learn this on the one that I don't need to talk. But I can pass you an image. And people are still going to listen to me. So those are the two factors I really made me to say, okay, let me continue in graphic design. One thing which you said really caught my attention, you said you weren't good at computers. I mean, if this was something that if it was just a total stranger who told me that, but lemma say, Syria, Kallan was not good at computers when she started out with graphic design. I would have never believed. So actually, so you basically just like changed your entire mindset to fit into this new thing which you are learning. I mean, it's quite amazing and really inspiring. So it wasn't actually something which you were doing just because of. It wasn't actually just what I was passionate about. Yeah, I was just trying to go, okay, this thing can not be more than me. I would not come to this school. My school is also a space. I'm like, I'm ready to start and I cannot start from going to realize that there's no cause of the moment. I mean, let me just stay. I'm ready to come to be more than me. I'm going to stay whatever is going to happen is going to happen. Okay. So, I mean, when whenever I talk to really, really good designers or artists, it's they're actually so good not even because they learn from somewhere is usually because it's usually because they are just so passionate about what they are doing. So you are actually one of the first persons who have met, who got into the field just out of curiosity, but not out of passion. In those early days, besides these challenges, which you've, which you've stated to me, what other challenges did you face and how did you push through them? Like the like not being very good at using computers and all what not. Okay. Well, much challenge that I see a lot as I said long ways. Let's move like we just get off the technique apart. Yes. My first challenge was that computer itself. I don't really to be in a computer class is doing the strike like restaurant started. I did some computer class that was just going on. But then you got me designed. No one was needed. You needed to know more than one. So I just said, I don't know. I remember I was just said, I must do it. So originally, I first was I had to quickly adapt and it was not really easy being a girl. But not saying something you're not really talking about. I just said, let me just do it. So obviously, yes, that I think my character helped me more. I cannot really like I cannot really say something that I should face something in the open. I think my character helped me more because I was a kind of person that I love challenges. I'm when I face challenges. I must go with no matter how it is. I also might say that I can do it. So I think my character helped me more. It was not challenging to me. I feel I feel like in the beginning, there's a lot of stuff like, okay, this thing is too easy. I would have left it. But that challenging part was really pushed me. I cannot really lie. I'm not going to get this is my character. I love facing challenges. I love maybe changing minds. I love when people say this thing cannot be done. But it's just what they want me on the beginning stage. Because they teach I will be teaching in class. I go, okay, click here, click here. People are clicking so many. So maybe five minutes. Then I'm also I found myself with people that knew already. Like I was not friends with people that like me. I was always maybe finding myself having conversations with people that came to class. Now we really had the design skills. So those beginning stages were not even because it's just in the class. So I was always finding myself. Please show me how you do it. So when they are talking too much, I started to be a little bit love for read. And then my teachers to somewhere my teachers were inspirations. I think what I want to school is not really. "Biaya, kama ro'l in kling, our teachers are people that are the experienced in the domain so it's not like the teachers just come before his money." Like, it's teacher out of experience so it makes things look a little bit easier for me. I'm like, "Okay, it's much easier out of experience, he has a car." "Lost things are not good, let me start getting into it." So they're very soft with me. They're not really hard. You see, "Manda, you can't do that." the ego." Even though The The I said, "Come, I need to do that really studded like I'm going to go back up." That was really help me. If you are going to sleep, I'm mostly, I'm looking at tutorials, Monday to Sunday. I'm begging to just in class, be sure to just do that on Monday, Sunday in class today. Since Franco's not my first language, so when they are teaching in French, I need to go back to learning English, so doing those really double, like learning in school, I don't help me to maybe go badly because I got started in class, I'm not going back up to my laptop after we begin to do that. You know, that would be fun, I understand. So really, two times daily, I think that also really pushed me to capture everything very fast. And I also said, "Maybe I was in Pasley and I won't lose." So that was how things really went to me. Okay, so you already passed Phase 1, which is the learning phase, which is, I think it's even the easiest phase, even though it wasn't very easy for you at all from what you've told us. So now you've graduated from, what institution was that? If you could name it. CMTP, ESAPL. Okay, so you've just graduated from ESAPL and now you're out in the job market. You know that's the hardest part and that's where a lot of people usually break and just give up on whatever they were pursuing. So a lot of people usually struggle with the transition from learning to actually earning and making money, regardless of the field. If it's not a field that would just get you into an office job or whatever, if it's something like being a graphic designer is always very difficult to start earning. So what helped you to make that leap from learning to earning? Talking, this one I'm not going to lie. It's usually my school taught me everything I needed to know. Like I said earlier, my school fees was a million francs every school there. So I felt like my school taught me everything I had to know because I didn't even do that school. I don't know. Because in school, they not just teach us just design. They taught us to be ready for the market because we're not designed like they saw design. The analysis for that if you cannot produce a design within one high school, no, that you love to catch up on your life school. So I teach us where so straight on the sky, I used to call my school military training. Like they were so hard like how my department was the most tedious. Nobody loves coming to the design department because I teach us where so much. They trained us as if we're really on field. So when I left school, it's that I was really used to that method of working. I did not sleep in the way in the way you know, but you don't sleep. You're living school at 6 p.m. and I give you that time is that we obliged you to stay up from that 6 p.m. to midnight. So imagine doing that for two years. So I was really getting used to it. I was really getting used to the happiness. So I feel like my school did a lot of a lot of a lot of vital role when I was doing the transitioning from school to design. They really helped us. It's not because they maybe feel like that school with no good theory. We did so with just the demos from the rest. It was practical from January to December. So I feel like that they're very solid from the show for me. They're able to transition from school to the jobs. I would have any problem. I started designing to help us out to sell myself. Branded. But I think that being the world is not really brandy. They're calling it communication or campaign communication. So I started to have been a good designer. They told us out to say because they say you can be very good. They do not have to communicate and sell your idea. You'll be broke. So I started to audition. I was designing to help us out to be brand of ourself. So we always had different way out to defend your idea. And I was just designing for British. I could defend everything from zero to 100. So that always started to permit me and doing internships. One of my point is that you just got to see me. Well, imagine I did internship at Sopeckham. At Sopeckham printing press. It was working. Money to live in it. They always command after Sopeckham. I went to Seattle city. Seattle city was in the world. I was with the team. There was no time. TV is fast like every TV needs to be moving. So there's no time. You said, OK, I have to go and sleep. There was nothing like that. Says in school already show myself as so much that I love challenges. So my teacher said that they supposed to mean that positions that are really good to challenge me. And if I really put up students in school, don't say but in my phone. Because we are one of the people that you have really accepted design like the way it is. So there's anything to those difficult tasks. I think that helped me to be my savior. That when I left school, find out they're trying to do it. Give me a flyer. I will give you back to you after two days. I was ready to prepare psychologically for those things from school. Then I'll like, OK, two days is that I was ready. One day do they know that actually. So just flex and look for my look for my solutions online. So I feel like I always is the people that school is not a scam. Because I saw me. I cannot really lie. My school helped me a lot. If you left my school and you are not in today, the focus on you because my teacher did everything. So much that the money you're being equals more your way to learn. Unless we lazy. So I think most people mostly make so in social way that when I even left school, that's what it was really me like during design. Like it was really there like working on very short. Always working on pressure. So my school with very very. So when I went on field, I know it is a challenge because I was already used to. For the challenge I felt was that the level of maybe deadlines. Because it's cool. You're working on a particular thing in your project. But now I'm filled five classes. 13 visuals on Friday. So you need to make sure you're leaving them on Friday. So if I was leaving them maybe to us, I'm like, they are in this. That is where I do not sleep. I remember when I just left school at the delivery project. I'd mostly put one foodie like I was on my laptop for money. Six or three hours. So six PM Friday. Like I was like, yeah, what kind of few now? I really choose it. And the same my school. They told me that that is what I'm going to feel that. No, it's going to something. But it's true. My body feel the damages. I almost fell sick. But psychological images. Pretty poor. That is how it is going to be. So on this upgraded apart, I was no stress. I was most stressed on the physical part. Like that maybe for sick or tired or have no else. That was what I really feel as challenges when I left school. And I started working on field. And also I'm not challenging. I first was out to defend my project. And I can speak or talk to your teachers. But now I see a big class that helps. It's in brains. It's some class. The local school we have to explain from. Wow. For people to learn. You know, they basically come down in the logo. They say, no, my logo to be like this. I was explaining pieces. So not that part of explaining. I was not really ready to be. We need to people have different brains. So I physically caught this in talking to clients. Delivering on deadlines and to be fast because of the summer. You need to go so very fast. So to be that fast, they are working on their things. Then designed the time. Well, still you still need to be very productive. Now that was where I really face a lot of challenges. I live in from school to field work. To like field. I feel what you are here. So did you. Did you apply for any jobs or was it only freelance? For the beginning, I did not apply. It was all unfortunate. I went to my left school immediately. I lost my dad. So I was not a bad boy. I was really down like my dad died one week after my defense. My normal school defense. So just my dad really had a good. So I don't know what I applied for jobs. I was I did not care. I was like one of my new job. I applied to one my dad well because he sent me to a very extensive school. And they were maybe coming out of the school for him to be proud. He's not long at it. So I'm not applying my first job came from the combination. Like I said from school, I started from school. I started building my brand from school or no. Because my dad left school people already talking about my name. Every way that we have this long. Girl, she's already determined. She's not working any product. Zing onkong la se glad no y me le sishing le tapai Draken Tga au Des Hello Don Quix Yena Madam Lee Xia Magu Mu Lee takina? Karate returning gondola lindag sii naans are not Music little multi toy will in the around know one one baby know what school i was not having a very good image i don't think i'm sure when i came she left because after we knew she was not up to that so when i came i was in a chair to leave and maybe saw that same person so most of the jobs I've had after school people contacted me while still wanting to be within my group of these I really have to be gone I see a design job I never have never had a design job that I wait online myself to search. People always send me the links not my distinct. I was coming to look at my design. I think you're best for this one then I apply and then I can get you. Wow that's that's really that's really amazing not a lot a lot of people don't really get this type of log with you being getting because a lot of people would be very good but they don't surround themselves with very good people. I think you also had very good people around you someone will go very well that you would be a good fit for the role but just because they were rejected don't feel very disgruntled too. So you also have to really appreciate the type of people who you had around you at the time. So I think I found out about you through social media and I think it hasn't been long that you started building a presence on social media. It hasn't been up to two or three years. No, I started building if I'm counting I started building on social media 20, 25 last year. My belt was six months. That's that's just yesterday and you already have such a huge audience. I'm telling you I don't feel like if you have value, people who do it. I'm going to catch you. I'm normally here. I feel like people are going to understand what design is. I feel like fancy flyers. But I think my school helped me because there's a lot of things fancy but like you're okay. It's a beautiful place. It's not so long. The beauty of design. The design is a bit too much. So that was really how it was. When I started doing my online brand or LinkedIn. I started building the lot. I started working a lot of people. I knew what it means to be the portfolio. I made it means to do branding. I had all those things down the range. But then I didn't need that. The platform. So I enrolled for a program. The LinkedInization program. I was like, oh, so that we do know how it's called branding. Like, down this thing looks good. I didn't start with a communication. Apparently it looks like all I just called branding. I go, okay, this thing looks good. I started posting on LinkedIn. I posted my first logo. Can people love it? Well, even up with that, my first introduction was more really many go viral on LinkedIn. I just said, okay, when we're teaching in class, I suppose we have an impression. Since I also have maybe the brand in my D.A. Communication, I'm like, okay, my first was really good. I look for my best picture. I'm like, I'm not this supposed to be viral. So they told us about writing beautiful headlines. What they would mean is that I'm very, I feel, occasionally, they say, I want to do something. I'm doing, I'm putting up my spirit, my body, but I wanted to be perfect. So people did it. The introduction after the class. I did not do my name immediately after the class. I took my time and I said, okay, I feel like I'm already, but now I'm valuing it to share. I did my class and I waited my year after to start posting online. So imagine the time it took me for me to release and reading and reading. But some people don't just do it and then go immediately from that, it worked for some people. But when they are, I feel like I had nothing yet to share. So I told myself, I don't really need to share. No need going online to be lying about projects and that. So I told myself I'm not ready to prepare. And I'm prepared to start. So the phase I did my first post or LinkedIn, I had a one-gen or something like that, 10,000 in red. So I'm like, "Gel, even made my mentor the brilliant of totals to be using my profile as an example." But when it was announced, maybe I need to do it. Should I post on LinkedIn? I'm going to like, she's not posting something. 10,000 views, 100 likes. That is how bad push me on LinkedIn. Because I really have something in me. But I've been hiding all this time and people really love it. But it was from bad posts that I started posting on social media. I was a satay posting. I have a lot that I really don't. So I was not coming, like, maybe to learn. I was kind of started posting what I've been doing. Logo, branding, and it felt like people have never seen that kind of metal to work as a designer. People were used to maybe as a designer, just with flyers. And all that to people that brand new from logo. From logo to business cards, maybe people are not really seeing that part yet. So I feel like when I started posting about it, people were like, "Well, one of the first things is kind of the thing before." I went and presented my work. I don't just post it. If I use more clubs, I show my working process. How I started from the logo from sketch. See how I did the logo. Why is that? I drew this color. So I feel like I just have something different. People never seen this on social media. That's how people started pulling interest to my page. And when I'm posting, people just going, "Well, I don't believe I'm like, I don't see me." And people started to think that I'm a genius. Yeah, people started getting interested. People started to comment on what that was. They read that was the thing. I was like, "Hey, girl, how much is this thing?" They were like, "Hey, girl, how are you doing this thing?" That was just how I really started. That's how I really felt. And all the other things that I don't really depend on design. I invest or not on networking. It doesn't make that I need to go that I'm going to meet top people in that thing. I'm going to even be a means that I need to pay more. It's good. I will pay more. But it's not the color to be bad. People see me maybe taking pictures. I'm like, "Why did you make that person?" I said, "I paid. You're sitting in the house." I am just curious. But there's a lot of people around me. I need to meet people that the moment they're going to attack me on their post, I will see going over. So I was really not a strategy because my hand walk and my skills to really position myself. I need six months. I was surprised. People feel like I've been posting online for years. I just did six months. I've even stopped. I've even stopped baby posting online. I've been posting online very once in a while. Because work and everything is too much. It's not that I'm coming back. So I was always deciding people. And they even teach me something. This is the way to move to have this thing. I will follow it. Docs. So after my LinkedIn class, it's a tomb that you need to engage on these people. I was in exactly the same thing. I was lost in plastic. You let's say, be online and engage one night before I was in exactly the same thing. I would say, after posting your content, we need to engage. I was doing it. I pulled out everything. I was not paid 25,000 to learn knowledge. I don't know. I will not maybe use the knowledge. So I used my knowledge for six months straight to the dots. I'm immediately like, they have no point. The people said they're calling me. And what do you mean? The first opened was that I traveled to Nigeria. I was a very bold step. I asked to spend money to travel by a road. I was like, OK, if I really need this visibility, I need to sacrifice. What's in every day is no way to give that visibility at once. If I want to go out of my soul, like people to really, if somebody is coming to the world looking for a designer, people should come to me first. I need to do something different. I know that the person was done. So I started booking travel. Conferences I was going. They also got a special because a lot of the activity, you know me that you meet everybody. I was talking to the ones that you know me that you know me that. The one that I want to go to. So the moment I traveled out of Nigeria, it become more. And also on social media. Nigeria's have more than we have more of Nigeria's or LinkedIn than Camelunias. So I feel like, OK, if I want to really go or LinkedIn, without you, I got to 100 active Camelunias or LinkedIn. So I said, OK, we have just Nigeria's. Let me go to where the selling market is. That is how I left the travel. That first year I went to Puerto Rico. I didn't come to Nigeria. And that is how I just started. My name does not go in every way. So that was my journey. - So, wow, that's, whoa, I can listen to you talk for talk about stuff like this for months. (laughs) But I just have this question. When you started, AI wasn't really mainstream and now today AI is everywhere. So for designers right now is both a tool and also a challenge like a lot of smarter and creative designers use it as something which accelerates their working process. But for most they feel like they're being threatened. But what's your own stance on this? - Okay, I think AI came a little bit like, a blow. Nobody was expecting it. I just, we had, we had a problem. - Yes, it just appeared. (laughs) - It does appear. But then, whether AI came up, that I think I remember very well. When people were talking about Chinese beauty and Lindsay, I know you like AI. I was losing my Chinese beauty. I was like, I was like, I guess Chinese beauty. I was like, it's not good. People are talking about the same problem. They need to be authentic. I was like, I guess Chinese beauty. I was like, ah, this thing is not right. But that is it about ignorance. Why you don't know something? You always see it to be something bad. You get way better. - You're not gonna know something. - You always pass with my choice. But the moment I'm like, okay, let me just try to say I think. It is not really bad, like I feel like it is. The moment I started using it, I'm like, "Done." This thing has more than what I seemed like it's having. Maybe you are just the people that were using it and that was not that we don't use it very well. - Of course. - So I started using Chinese beauty. Well, I will give it to me. Tap it to make it me this. Sometimes I used to go and Google, like I'm looking for one idea for a definition. I was struggling to tell my country, I was trying to keep it in. I was just a big session on the night and give me this answer. But it's going to give it to me. I'm like, "Done." This thing is really good. And I mean, depriving myself from it. And also, like I said, my story at that time really buffers me. I started using it, but I was lovely good deep into it. So I'm not a joke of beauty. It was so came on me. You get it. Somebody was so called me again. And I will say why I've been on LinkedIn, please. Call my own videos. So when I went there, it was really a very big combination, a national combination. Like this is a lot clear. And I will need people like you. People that I think might say like you should be on a working scene. So when I went there, they said, "Okay, this is a matter of working this. AI is exclusively." I started in Hawaii. I just started to lead to things about tragedy. That you go out to post a content. You might try to be stupid, you know what I'm talking about. But then they said, "No, this is my YouTube. You just imagine it's like with AI." I'm like, "Huh?" Really? We have to put these videos here. I'm like, "Dumb." This is really much. It was not easy. Are you not me? What was I'm facing? I live that time, I'm facing that. So I did not say I was going to like, "No, I know, I know." I said, "I know." You said, "I know." Now it's the way. I said, "No, no, I knew nothing." I knew nothing. - They breathed the time. - I'm alive. - I was always open to learning. - I was open to learning. - Yeah, I was like, "Come and next party, "we'll be fine, I'm going like okay, anyways." So the past is most, I'm not dressing with AI. I know, so if I don't know, if I'm a somebody that knows, I don't care. I'm going to hold you, see like, "No, "I'm going to help you." (laughing) They will be teaching me, like this, then there was a lot of these, without somebody with tissue. There you do it, the person will be happy to keep on tissue, but you are like, "Kind like somebody with tissue, "then you just got to sleep." You only be giving complaints. So I message them, "Well, when I meet somebody to teach me, "the resource of being like that, "like, "No, you're very fast. "It made them that they be one "of asking any more of that, "tiche me this thing. "They just go, "where they listen to you, "just come, see, "I've like this one about here, "try to, you get." I'm like, "I wish before six months prior, "I was saying that, "yeah, it's not good. "It's good to meet people to be lazy, "but now, "even with them, "we've been working more than when, "I do not use air." Like, I'm still using air, you get, "but I'm still working more." But people are feeling like, "No, we are going to sleep, "we are not sleeping." Because air is developing everyday. And for you to really get the best of air, you need to develop yourself to all the time. So that is how I let you air. I feel like, challenge is made between learning lots. The fact that I love challenge myself, I always make me to learn. Yeah, I started by just using the AI six months ago. But what I'm doing with air, people feel like, I'm using air for two years, we have no, I started using the AI six months ago. The only thing is that I don't stop. See, I get to the point where, even the air in service like my mom, this kind of thing. - My mom, yeah. - Yes, love it, yeah, it's calm down. - I know that is just it. And then the first thing you see to me now, AI is, I don't know, I can just, if you're losing the AI now, I don't know what to say. It's not like, you're not using it. - Yeah, in the stone age. - I mean, you have a low rating, you have a low rating seriously. You have a low rating because, I usually people, like recently people are posting online that, air cannot be placed as an example. For the first one, one since, one time, every time you see how it was done by AI, you cannot come so many times, post it online that it did, it's not a background, came to the hierarchy, it's not something, everything else, all of them was template, and somebody did for true chat with chat, this being true chat with me. And every other person is using, yeah. So if you're a designer, you're saying that, yeah, I can't, because you're online. It wasn't even a program I went for today. They used chat with me. So just imagine big companies that are paying millions and millions that isn't chatty-be-tea. It's going to use you again. It's going to look at you anymore. Companies are using chatty-be-tea. We have empty using chatty-be-tea using AI today. Always using AI, Coca-Cola. What's the company's not ready? They want to pay you in millions. I imagine now that they know that AI can do those things you could do. Are you asking all you want them to employ you? You want them to. Sorry, contrast with you, when you cannot even use AI. It means you're not ready. You are not ready. So many designers are not ready. You say, "I know, it's really joking." It's really joking. It's really going to be a pleasure. And there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah. Yeah, for me, personally, I really agree with you on most of the points. But to a certain extent, I think designers will always be in the process. They're real creatives will always be in the process. But if you don't know how to catch up with them, if you are, if you resist to adapt yourself to the new technologies, you always just be left behind. Like, remember in 2007, when the iPhone came out, all other phones had keyboards. But Nokia and Motorola and all the others, they said, "No, how will someone use a phone that does not have a keyboard?" And now look at today, when was the last time you saw someone using a phone with a keyboard on it? So it's the same thing in every industry. Not for no reason. No, it's in moves. Yeah. Very fast. Like, it was just barely seven years ago that Apple introduced these headphones, these are earbuds which are wireless. And now almost everywhere, that's what you see. Almost nobody uses the wireless anymore. I could go on and on and on again, every single thing is also catching up with the AI trend and so on. So my advice to anybody who is in tech is that, tech is not something that is stagnant. It's something that is ever evolving. Even these AI agents that we're using today, in 10 years, there'll be something much more powerful to come again. And if you are resistant, if you are resistant to change, you're just going to be left behind. That's all. So talking about change, you started a TikTok page and you posted it on the. - Yeah, I also got that point. - Yeah, go ahead. - Yeah, I also wanted to say on the point of people who are in the industry, aft another Top Taste I'm going to learn it and I'm going to add that to it. I'm going to learn it and Integrated in my working process. Exactly. Like just imagine Calculators also let me just use a very simple example. Calculators became mainstream in like the 90s. Imagine if you are still that student who says you come and you do all of your calculations on a piece of paper that no calculators will make you lazy and stuff like that. You simply be left behind. Someone who finishes examines how and two days you will still be in the hall. So your technology is ever changing. If you don't catch up, you will simply be left behind. Okay, let's move on to something else. You started a TikTok page and I was very excited for that because you are like one of my major inspirations for what I do. And just think about the fact that I will be seeing and hearing your voice through the phone. It was really exciting, not just through text, but actually seeing videos of you. So you posted just one video like what inspired you to start? And why did you stop? Because I'm very angry. I don't know why you stopped. I will start by this year. Okay, that's good news. The time when you restarted visuals. You know how to replace. You get people now. Social media, social media people become bored easily. If your communication or your easy to communicate, if this is not moving, people don't be able to reach on the street. Flyers don't sell anymore. To be sincere to you. This is for yourself. People want to see movement. People are easily bored. So I was like, I was telling you to shoot like, there's no way people have to reach. People don't care. People don't want to read. So the best way to communicate now is by talking with people. See you. They listen and also see the start of visual. It stays more in their minds. I was like, let me transition from those visual and start using videos. And there are some things that you can better explain when you're talking. That way you are writing it down. You get you get in five seconds. You can say 1000 maybe 200 words. But somebody cannot read 200 words in five seconds. Imagine a video you cannot. Knowledge that you ask for maybe post it online. You need to make. Hello. It's yours because I feel like I'm also welcome. We just have to do videos. I saw a lot of false information online. And the people that we have in the views talking about our. Talking about design. Most of them are lying. You get like most people lie in just maybe get attention. So like that. If I will want to fight this thing as people to find something. Visually, the lemurs of finding. With words. Look at the time. It's easy to maybe lie with your visuals. And then you can ask you to say it out. If you have not had experience, if you have not a person that did that thing. You start stammering. You're going to get this one coming to give false information. Let me start talking to be debunking all these ideas. Even this quick. Design out schools that are far one house. You come a pool. So those things may maybe mean you know. So what I really wanted to study. To do both of those things like people. People are misleading you. And I in six months you come in. A post-action. You're coming to you. It's a lie. So I think we just petition people back some of these things in this time. I know. So I feel like I have a lot of experience. I need to be able to stand and say this is wrong. You get. I always do things when I feel like I'm ready. So yes, back. I don't think we're putting a tick to a page. I'm not a team. I mean, but you know what I am. I think I have a lot of experience. So they want to see you. The thing you're seeing as excited. You are lying. It was no working reality. So that was only push me to start doing visual editing. But I'm going to start back. I really bought all my materials. I moved into a new place. I've had a lot of my microphone. Anything. So don't bother. I'm coming back already. I've been seeing so I was also trying to be the team. Because I cannot. Yeah, I can not do everything in one. So we can see you. You can do everything in. You need people that you have to. I'm really excited. I'm really excited. I'm going to be the team. I'm. So if I'm taking a video, I cannot. I'm going to maybe the video. I just pay so many for my team. The person who did that. I'm with so of load. I feel like growing to. If you don't go with people, you cannot do everything in. You see, down. The is not a loan. He asked one million employees. Without those one million people, he is not. So I need that to start thinking about. I'm also. Build a team. I start. And trust him. Walk to people. You have a day. I will not do everything in your. That moment. We went out. We seek. What takes over. If something happens to me today or maybe the next 15 years. Well, I'm going to. What takes over. I cannot. Take your. I have maybe keep to myself. I need to also share with people. I'm way also teaching people. You also learning the process. So we're coming back in my. I do some of them. How coming back strongly. I trust you. And I'm sure that the. The quality is going to be out of this world. So. Let's. Let's people to different topics. So. In the creative industry, we all know that Adobe is the king. When it comes to design, video editing, or motion graphics. The go to software application or software suit is the Adobe suit. But now I don't know if you. If you've heard, but. Can buy is trying to sort of like to kind of like break that monopoly. Because you see for like an entry level designer to go and buy software. You're not even buying the software is a subscription monthly. That maybe you might have one client a month. So it's like really expensive. And also being a monopoly in such a huge lease saturated market is. It's really, really dangerous because now anything which you say will just automatically law. You can charge as much as you want. And nobody is going to question it because. If they don't come to you, who else are they going to go to. So. Exactly. Canva canva is actually trying to challenge Adobe. So. This late last year, 2025, they acquired a affinity. Affinity is, I think. One of Adobe's only competitors. So they basically provide cheaper alternatives to Photoshop, Illustrator and in design. And I think if you're really good at using Photoshop, Illustrator and in design, you find it very familiar. But before they were acquired by Canva, they were a pay one software. So I think the entire suite was about 150 euros. And you own it for life. No monthly subscriptions. But now canva acquired affinity and made the entire suite free. So I don't know if this move from. I don't know if this move from canva would actually shake the market or Adobe is going to remain like the dominant path forever. Because whenever you go to apply for a job, it's always Adobe. Adobe, Adobe, Adobe, Adobe, Adobe, Adobe. I don't know if one day, I don't know if you think one day there will be that a little bit of shift in the competition for less unknown software suite to come into the into the picture, such as such as affinity. So I also forgot to mention they are quite affinity and made it 100% free forever. 100% free forever. So I don't know if one day, one day, Adobe is going to be shaking or if they're going to remember forever. I wanted to hear your own thoughts on it. I feel like it's the same thing we have. I think Adobe has been ready for moments like this. You know, you cannot be in one room. You cannot monopolize a setting field for long. It's the same thing we can see and McDonald's you get. So I just feel like. Canva, I don't feel canva is still even yet the computer to do. I don't feel like canva can compete in the movie. Now, canva is going to be the clients for the new generation designers. But those are the designers that we started from design being us. tb. lo. >>You correct? So cover is going to be the best resolution. But then you come to Europe to be. >>I don't know whenever I bring up this topic and I'll talk about Canva, a lot of people I think about the software, I'm talking about the company. Canva as a company, right? Accuired affinity. >>Yes. >>Affinity is actually the software which is competing with Adobe Suite. So they have an alternative for Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign. 100% professional is not the template stuff or the app which you can install on the phone. So with that perspective, you cannot continue. >>Okay. For me, I feel like it's a good thing at the same time. It's a good thing because you know in the market, if you don't face competition, you might not really know when you're lacking to somebody else also with the idea and those that are on you. So I feel like for the moment, it's good to push Adobe to really drop prices or start making. >>That's software. >>Lifetime, for say, lifetime purchases. You don't need to be paying every month. Now going to have maybe yearly subscriptions, monthly, but then still lifetime purchases. I think it's going to push Adobe to do that. It's also good for designers are stressing everything and to be paid money. Secondly, I feel like, I feel like even with Cabo as well, this affinity you're talking about, if it is still God's expression for Adobe. >>Yes. That's true. >>It is still even come as this God's expression for Adobe. So at this point in time, I think I'm talking at the point of maybe a marketer or somebody in granted. For me, at the level of Adobe, I think Adobe is very cautious with how it shares its information now because any person can be a spy from Adobe to release information from Adobe to sell maybe to come up to become something better. But then since Adobe has done monopoly power, it's good to take time for come up really come and push it. Adobe is no silence. So I can say, Adobe is okay. And we are adding so many features as time goes. I also have to get applications with AI. So the computer is really good with that for come up really come up one day and see that we can go to Adobe. I'm taking the same case with iPhone and Samsung. I'm not saying iPhone and Android. You get them say iPhone and Samsung. Samsung has been the only Android map that has been existing from time immemorial to now and it has not left the market. It is still top in the market to today. For us, iPhone is new to the version that we with at least with I was reading maybe 50 years ago. The market is even more. There has been more than Samsung but you did some some sit-ups iPhone in everything really comes to marketing and lots of users. So it's not really good to take time for me. I don't feel like I'm really a competitor like 50 50 with Adobe for now. I can only say so. It's really good. Next slide. Yes. Now I don't think that competition it is really there but what I do is really good is helping young creatives. You know you just spend so much and not that you get but Adobe system is still missing. That is a certain moment that in this one. In this one department aside from it being very easy. It becomes too easy. We don't like it anymore. One makes our job. This one is trying to challenge to the one before like it is a time probably pretty little. So if we are saying that we are happy with the fact that that time factor that was what people really loved about our job is being taken out. It's going to cost it for me in the long run because people pay designers because of the time and you don't pay you for the fact that you can design. That's the future. They pay you for your activity. Your creativity is your mind. You get on your side. So imagine that that button is being removed. In the long run it's going to be a good thing because people like there's not going to be any creative thing anymore because cameras are coming template. There's no more creativity. It's killing creativity. People do the same thing over and over. Same thing with chat. It does in that side of creativity because you see one at the same text. For example, that of doing things. So it's going to be a good thing but we time is going to kill the industry. So come up for the moment people are saying that come up is good. Good. Good. Good. Which is good. Because I'm going to cost. But how is it going to help? I'm going to help. I'm going to help us as creative. It's going to kill our creativity. It's going to kill our experience because now imagine before you need that to make maybe five years to be able to do some setting things as a designer. But come up as maybe a person that would be six months. You can do this. You can do this. You can do this. You can do this. You can do this. You can do this in five years. It does kill that time. But now creative parts. You need that to maybe take five days to look at the expression from the natural sources of life. Come up. Kill that also. So if you cover kills all those things. I don't think design is going to lose his value. Seriously. The design market is really just value. So for me, come up. I think it is good. And at the same time, it is that. Now I have to say it is good. I love come up. But I prefer to go the other way. Because it's really a good thing. It's also a opportunity to still be creative enough. And that is what makes our creativity. We are able to think something and realize how you're thinking your mind. Now you're thinking something. No, you're not thinking anything. You're not going to be another person. I just adapt. I say, okay, I have to. You're not great. You're adapting. So I think that's my point. You're teaching those two things. I will always be another big fan. Even if it comes out, it's not going to be good. I think I'm still going to be another big fan. Even if I need to pay, I love that crazy part of it. That is what makes it. And I see one that is part to see big day. So I'm always going to be another big fan. I just played the video's appliances and have a lifetime purchase. It's going to be super. But I will never see. I won't lose. Well, I think you still didn't get what I was. What this whole thing was about. So basically, yeah, they can't. They can't. They can't. They can't. They can't. They can't have a part of can't. So can't have the upright, which has the templates, which is for basically people who just want a quick design. They don't want to pay people. And now, Affinity right is basically just like the Photoshop, the illustrator and in design, which you always use. So you basically have to do everything from scratch and all what not. But I think it's still. Oh, I get it. Yes. Yes. Yes. You get it. I don't know if you have used video editor, if you know this video editor, you know that Vinci Resolve, right? Yes. I know it. And you know Adobe Premiere Pro. Yes. Yes. So those two are competitors, right? And you also have Cupcups. So basically Cupcups is like Canva and Premiere Pro and DaVinci Resolve is like Affinity. So they wanted to have that. Yes. So actually, Canva actually wanted to also try to grab part of the market, part of the real professional market, like people like you who like doing everything from scratch. And Affinity lets you do that. That's why I kept on bringing the example that they are basically an alternative to Photoshop, illustrator and in design. So I'll leave a link in the show notes for anybody who wants to check it out or also send it to you. I know you're someone who always likes exploring. You can also check it out. It's free for everyone to use. Check it out. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. And one thing that is really nice about it. Is your not going to check it out? Yes. No, no, it's one person free. Just have to create an A Canva account and sign in that. And they're really nice thing about it is that it's actually a combination of what you would have in Photoshop and illustrator and in design in one app. So they used to have three separate apps. But now they have combined everything to one. So you could have just imagine having tools. Yes. Go ahead. But I'm going to go out. I'm going to tell you because each of those applications are based like for example Photoshop is pixel based like what does it image? The illustrator is vecto. So I'm very happy. Safж prophesy on his photo shop my my my My my my my my dicentral happened to Finiidzi. U-know, yukkē rocketcallsur! 如何 to эk lam' рو с에요? Teh kidarес kandallat��u ˝و ˝ crazy ˘ ˘ crazy ˘ is vector. And it's kind of a non-destructive workflow meaning, if you put an effect on an image or a project which you're working on, you can come and on do it later and maybe export it a different way and so on and so forth. So I know your somehow likes exploring or just leave it for you to check it out later and explore for yourself. I think you're really going to find it interesting. It's a bit different to use from the Adobe Suite but it's always good to learn and to learn new things while you're on your professional journey. So like um. Okay. So what would you say to someone who wants to start design but keeps on procrastinating like maybe I don't have a computer, my phone isn't that good. I can't afford the software and so on and so forth. What would you tell that person? Well in life, if you keep on giving excuses, you'll never do anything in life. So even though a phone is not good, somebody else is still using that phone that is not good to do something. You just need to know how to use it. For example, when I was in school, we needed to buy laptops. So my laptop was not the best performance. It was not that good. It was not maybe the 16 giga-gram or whatsoever. So I also adapt my working methods to my laptop. I never really had a very good laptop. I can do things very fast. So it's not going to be producing a video and it's going to be probably five seconds. Maybe look at an expose in one hour. So now I said to my lover, "It's not going to be stopped. I will do my video." They make sure that I'm exposing it when I'm sleeping. So I'm happy to be there. Morning, I'm going to do it already. You get so in every, like what my boss normally tells me is that I really am taco. Whenever I go to do with the problem, it's also one of the very good people in the design field. The engineers of this period should check him out. So I thought I'd walk you with him lately. He always tells me, "You're coming to your company solutions. Not coming to you." He's not telling me the problem. He doesn't know your laptop is slow. What is the solution? What can you do? Come with me. You tell me that, "Come with the solution. Not coming to me." So what should we do? So you're saying your phone is this, "What are you doing now to change that problem?" If that's a good phone, maybe that's a phone that's all. Let's start from there. You love design. You don't have any phone. You may be living in the village. You are just a worker. You can start by doing odd jobs. Now we generate you money. You buy your phone and you can start designing it. That is a lie. But I say lie that you do some things. So you're able to put you to where you really want to be. But you're not in that thing to do forever. You're starting there because you want money from there. You really do what you want to do. So you know, have a very good phone. Start with something else that can give you money. Then you buy the good phone and then you kick off from there. We have cyber cafes. Maybe now we don't have a mobile. We call the office. The community call office something like that office. Security of your attic. Well, good day. If you have someone cousin 2000, you go there. You start working. You now we really have not chat with you. Have not free applications. Just go to your phone. Free up. Check your phone. You just think the people that you think the people don't want to learn. We chat a bit. Now we can even just fire us because somebody can't pay you. Because if you know it, I have to produce last week. That's not where we're coming in designer. Because I don't have enough to put in my phone. I'm going to learn how to do from the company. Just very good visuals. Now people think I'm designing it my laptop. Even the person is being one careful with that is money. When you have one key, one key goes to 2K. You start with 50% when you generate the money. Then you will not buy your shoes. Everybody started from there. I also started from nobody starting with everything. You're always going to start with nothing. Then you start who you start saving. And then you have your money. And also as a designer, there is this button we have. We like quick sources. It's really this. Like you at the moment you know you can just produce one visual. And I believe you come in. Bro, you cannot pay me 5000. Because I'm like, there's not a kind of living room back. A client that can pay me that 5000. Why is life for you? One is a experience for me to pay you one and I get. And this is another artist. We are two in the East. For money, we are as money is not really the first thing. When you start the ceremony, it's not usable to be the first thing. You're supposed to throw it first. You just have to say somebody money. Imagine that you have so many 5 pounds. And you're a busy friend. The person could use charity, but it's a good. Not everybody. The person will look on back. So take your time. Go gently. Don't be in the East. The other it's money. I don't know. That I don't know. Design is small. It's not a sexy one million. We don't close in their eyes. It was another last six months experience with charity. They have been doing it for years. It is the years that it's paying them off. So you're saying that we know about this too. You just want to come fast. Yes, you're going to be blocked. Quick sources never last. So I'll start with something else. You're going to be stuck by your things. They also look for a mentor. You're starting from the beginning. It was a mentor in me. I'm going to come there. So my application is to start with a very difficult and especially for you. I'm going to have money. Live in there. You're talking about cover. Get cover. You have all those things. You really need money to be fighting. So get a double suit. You can just be going and make your camera subscription with you. There's a new feature that I've added. You can start from there. But if you don't have a mentor, you know no these things. To where somebody will come out there again online that you need to pay from the industry. So have a mentor and start from somewhere that you start building your own thing. But I'm going to get somebody facing that kind of issue as a big mind to graphic design. And what about you? What advice do you think you wish someone would have told you when you started out? However, you don't want to have told me is that in design you cannot do everything. Like you cannot do everything you need. A time will be when you need to assign. You need to trust that other people can be as good as you. Yes. Because as a designer, at the setting point, we become too attached to our work. I would feel like if you are not the only person that too, you just like it's always a good thing. But it's one thing I feel like we need to start talking about you in design we use. Because you know everything in life. The setting point is to happen that you need to and trust somebody as I need to feel like somebody else is working with aquilits. And also, I'm just talking on the level that somebody tells me is that don't be too attached to your design work. It is not for you. Do it on a hard way, but designers will usually let that don't put your mind. It's true you're going to feel that bad. Because a designer don't put your mind. Don't put on your acts in design work. Because you make that work. It's a make-up. You will do something very beautiful. Not everybody's going to know. I do. Not everybody can know that I'm design. Even that's the means to get that people you can expect that. No, you're supposed to understand that. No, no, you're not. You're doing. So if you keep up putting your design to heart, I did this one by heart. Oh, you're gumbling. You know, go for it. So two things. You're not going to have somebody told me that don't put your mind in your design work. Do it. It's just love. It's for one beautiful girl of everything. But it's not me. It's not work. It's somebody. There's a teacher. You know, I'm going to die. You're going to crack. And you're not creative. You always need to have free mind. And my design is so much crafty. You see, somebody has misused your work. Your staff is going to make your creativity like it's going to be going up. Because your mind is too choked up with things that I'm supposed to be there. Don't get it. You move your mind. OK. And because it's on the next thing. The moment you start piling, doing the head treat, what the designer, if your mind is not sure, you cannot be creative. Your mind is a woman's speed. Not taking anything to heart. Because creativity starts from the mind. And if your mind is counted, it is why you have your mind that you put on your face as a designer. If your mind is counted with parties, you start producing body. And you feel like, where are my designs? Heslaeni forsezier Daido Air "So, it's funny to be a fighter on the best, he's no, not as a designer and not as a best." "And the air boots are low, the air boots are sitting, I mean, no, I chose that designer. It's good." "I'm not sure to do something, but I'm here." "It's really good to offer you a design journey. You will not be falling off, facing everywhere with people. Somebody else is not giving me this contract and all that." So, those are the two things that I love that I knew as a designer from the Seergook. Okay, now, we all know that we're almost coming to the end now and we all know that when we're going to upload this episode, it's great to be on the internet forever and maybe sometime in the future, you may come back to revisit this. So, let's just say 10 years from now, when you come back to listen to this episode, where would you like that your future self to be? And what message are you sending to her? Okay. There you are, so now I think I may not really go into detail because I can't say something, because I can't say something. Because I can't say anything. You say you're going to say something, but you must be easy. It's not easy. It's not easy. It's like, "I'm happy." And you're so excited to be quiet. Yeah, don't be quiet. So, to be honest, here's how it's just to be the result. So, in 10 years time, I'm not going to be getting anything I've said now, but I'm not going to be able to say that I'm one or the other. I'm going to train a lot of people and part a lot of designers, to change the path ideas that people see about design, because they've been watching now in Africa's society. People see the need of design. I will need that in 10 years, I should be able to say, "Wow, look at that. I said these things, and these things are no longer existing." So, I'll get things off, I'll be so happy. And there's the man, see myself. Not only in Africa, not only in Cameroon, I'm now blue-bar. And in 10 years, I'm seeing that design has taken another level, design is no longer technical, I'm not going to consider technical people, and I'm considering like, totzing us, market us, strategists. We are no longer able to know, they just give you a round color, when you put red or a round color green. I want to say that design has taken an extreme level. That's really gone more than that. It's never been like that. I just said I was in the creative process of this thing from the beginning to the end. I was in the strategy process. I was in this, I was in that. I will have a little of the people going to do some work, I'm really seeing myself there as well now, but. So, things are better, just don't, just show people, I think it's not really. I think there's time, one of my gyms is home, maybe my own personal company, a consortium company, where I'm also on a school, not only teaching people about them, but also teaching people how to upgrade us, technology, we don't just see them say love, how to have a mindset to always be open to challenges. So, I think those are the things that I'm really seeing myself. Now, when I will see this video, I'll be so proud. So, okay, I said this thing, I'm really dreaming. I really, I really, really, really hope so. So, thank you so much for joining today, for making the time through your busy program, to join me today to record this. I really hope that anybody who is listening to this right now has been inspired in one way or the other, because I'm really sure that someone must have been inspired, someone who is coming off, someone who doesn't know where to go. And my one piece of advice would be always go, if you are looking for the light, simply follow where the light is coming from. If you don't have a candle, go to where the, if you have a candle, which is not lead, go to another candle and try to take the flame from that candle like yours. It's a candle. It's nothing from lighting another candle. So, always, and what I've noticed in my own professional journey is that a lot of these top people are very open to people who want to learn. So, don't be shy. Like, I could never have imagined that I would grab Cecilia Balenba's number on Instagram and text it her and she would reply. I always looked at people over the internet like celebrities and so on. So, don't be shy. What by the way, what do you have to lose? There was that they can say to you. No. Yeah. So, it's better to try and feel than to regret. So, that's my own key takeaway from this. Thank you so much for listening and thank you to Cecilia once more for joining us. And yeah, I would like you to be the one to say goodbye to the audience. Okay. For those who are going to listen to this point, what I want to say is that in life nobody is going to do that thing that you want to fulfill. You just need to take the goal step. You say, "No body is going to push you more than yourself. You can be motivated. You can do this post podcast every month. Every year you listen to somebody. If you don't take that first step, nothing is going to happen." So, listen to this podcast. Make sure that you are going to start designing and make sure you restart it. So, the other thing was say, try to prevent them. Notice I'm going to listen and it's going to listen. And you implement. It stays. But I'm just listening to a song. I want to do it. If you listen to it, it stays in your mind. I say, "Okay, let me listen, but not too much. I'm going to try." The moment you say to lose, who is never going to win? And time can never be lost. What you say you could lose today? Somebody else. I remember there's somebody out there that is not having the knowledge you have, is not having the strength you have, but the person is making money. The person is creating an implant. You're asking, "Yes, sleep on your bed." But if you are stuck on that same platform, what is it you have done better? So, don't always wait for people to come and tell you what to do. If you feel like you want to do anything, do it. It went from the mistakes and looked forward. I didn't know where I was going to. But I feel like with time, it was something I really wanted to do. But in the middle of the night, I don't know how to start with it. That was when the sick communication you get. But then, if someone would have told me that I didn't do something, I said, "No, I don't want to have a communication. I don't have a communication just like the way I talk with that being. I'm not being charged with malice, I'm not sure if I'm not sure if I'm not sure. But then I started a challenge. I don't think it goes to something that maybe a sped was existing in the world and is taking me to places. So, whenever you have something in mind, you just don't see, "What do you lose?" Like, "My horse says, "What do you lose?" You lose nothing. You just like any knowledge. Do it even as long as you have the time as a youth. This is the tool. Your youth's nature is not being built in the house. This is a period for you to work per connection, find yourself after it's not being built in the house. You're not a sorcerer. If you do not happen, people are not being trained as a million years. You're coming from wealthy families. It's not that money. Take your time to learn. You're 20 years, you're learning, you're feeling, you're learning, you're feeling. Don't be in your rush here. Be happy. Without life is good to know for you. Thank you very much. And I hope this episode is going to be a success. And thank you so much Mr. Horse, for having me and I think and I better hold up more and more collaborations in the future. Thank you. Thank you very much. Me too. I really hope so. Thank you so much for listening. And as usual, I'm going to see you in the next episode very soon with a lot of very interesting person. Thank you so much and good night. [Music]