Talking Dateline: The Orchard

Hi everyone, I'm Blaine Alexander and today we are talking date line. I'm joined by Andrea Canning to discuss her episode, The Orchard. Hi Andrea. Hey Blaine. This episode is about the disappearance of a former beauty queen from a small town in Georgia and the decades long investigation that followed and an absolute surprise ending that I think it's safe to say I didn't see coming. I'm sure a lot of people didn't see that one coming. I agree. But before we get into all of that, if you haven't listened to the episode, of course, you can find it right below this one or you can go stream it right now on Peacock. Coming up we'll have more from Andrea's interview with lead investigator Gary Rothwell, who talks about a tip that fell through the cracks. And then later, two of our producers who worked on this episode, senior producer Brad Davis and producer Marissa Meyer, will be back to answer some of your questions from social media. Alright Andrea, let's talk date line. Let's talk date line. I first have to say I watched the episode. I had to watch the ending twice because when I tell you I did not see that coming, I was stunned. That was a good one. That really was a good one. Yeah. And it was so long in the making, you know, to even to get there, right? As evidenced by the fact that your appearance changed through the episode goodness. Can we just wipe that from the archives? Like did we really have to show all that? I'm like, oh, you look fabulous. You look fabulous. So every time I go back and look, I'm the same. I look back at old clips of myself. I'm like, oh, what were we doing? And I put myself on TV that way. And you brought up on another talking date line, the chunky jewelry, which thankfully was not in this episode. But I have some episodes that like, I'm wearing these giant necklaces and I'm like, oh my gosh, like, talk about distracting. But you know what? It was a statement. Did you really do TV in the 2010s if you didn't have a chunky necklace somewhere in some of your archive footage? I agree. I have it. I'm calling it right now. If it comes back in style, I'm not doing it. It's not happening. I mean, I think that's one of the amazing things about date line that we can take a story and follow it for as long as we are able to, right? But let's talk about just how much of a media frenzy was around this case when Tara first disappeared. I mean, Nancy Grace was involved. It was covered on date line back when it happened. We saw the clip from the today show, like all of the archival footage of this truly was a huge deal when she first went missing. It wasn't. I think it was like kind of the beginning, really, of this true crime obsession, right? You know, because we didn't have all the podcasts back then and, you know, date line wasn't doing just crime. If a crime story was going to end up on date line back then, it had to be big. Yeah. And that was a big story. It fascinated people because, you know, here you have this beauty queen. She's a teacher. It's small town, Georgia. She just up and vanished. So it, I think it was kind of like, you know, the beginnings of what we see now, right? Like a germ of, like, of that true crime obsession. Absolutely. That, that interest, that intense interest. There are so many aspects that were relatable. She's a teacher, you know, she had been a pageant girl, right? I used that term lovingly, but I was a pageant girl. I did it when I was in high school. So I feel like I could say that. Wait, I know that. I did. I did. What pageants were you in, and I did you take home the crown? Well, I took home a crown. So the biggest pageant I did was miss Oklahoma teen USA when I was in Oklahoma growing up. Huge. It was fun. I was a finalist one year. And then it's my finalist another. So it was, but you know what, it was very, that's big. It was such a fun experience. I can see though why, so for me, it was really fun. My parents were like, yeah, let's try this. Let's go. I had a trainer at the time who, you know, worked with pageant gals. It was really kind of cool to be inside that world for a bit. And then I did some more fun community ones things I did not know about Blaine Alexander. Wow. Um, any, any beauty tricks that you still take with you today for on air? You know what? I will say that I still post the same way. I, I took a, I took a lot of classes in like how to walk your lead leg is supposed to walk off stage. And when I post in pictures, I kind of do the same thing. I would say that it was great at building discipline because as I got close to those pageants. I mean, I was working at, I ran track at the time, but I was also working at, um, when I did once that had a talent portion, I was, I used to play piano. So piano was my talent and, uh, it was a great experience. Well, it was fun. It also set you up for this career too, you know, because you, you have to answer questions. You have to be in front of people. You have to be live. You have, you know, I'm sure. Yes. And you're gorgeous and smart, so you, you're like the perfect person for the pageant world. You're the sweetest. Thank you. I, I loved it. So not to go down the, the path of my childhood, things that I tried. I love it. I, I'm glad that we had this conversation. I think it's cool. It was so, it was fun. It was a lot of fun. We always learn a lot of things about you. So those are my, my random child's awesome, uh, as a teen, but I, I identified with her in that regard because I know what it takes to prepare for a pageant and, you know, so, so thinking about that, there were so many aspects of terror that were, that were very relatable. So I could see why in so many cases and then just the mystery of her disappearance. I could see why it grabbed national attention as it did. Let's talk about small town, Georgia, Asala, Georgia. Uh, I mean, it doesn't get much more small town than that. It was funny knowing that this was in Georgia. I know that town, for sure. Tell me what did it feel like being down there? There's just a quirkiness to it. They're, you know, the, the accent is so great. I, I love this other accent. Um, I don't know. I think there's, there's a different vibe, you know, that's just, it's just like a very welcoming, just a lovely, these towns are lovely, you know, the, the, it's just a hometown feel that you don't get everywhere. Absolutely. Southern hospitality is real. There you go. Let's talk about, um, Tara's love life. I think that you did such a great job of respectfully threading the needle when talking about that because I, I loved that you first introduced it with her friends saying, Oh, I knew that I was going to have to tell my friends secrets essentially. And you assured her like, no, you're being a good friend. This is, you know, there's the best friend bond, but then also this, this is much different. You have to help her in the situation. Yeah. I mean, you're trying to solve a murder, right? A disappearance, a murder, um, and, you know, Tara, well, while a lot of men's names were mentioned, she, this was a young woman who's not married, right? What do you do when you're not married and you want to be married? You date, and you meet different guys. That's what people do when they're single. And so, but I think when you put it under a microscope and you look at, as though, Oh, could this person be a suspect? Could this person be a suspect? Then it turns into, wow, there's a lot of guys to look at. But I don't think it was anything super out of the norm. Once people started coming out, um, there were some people who, you could look and say, Oh, it could have been that person. It could have been that person. I mean, people who look to be viable suspects are absolutely. And that's what, um, Gary Rothwell, the GBI agent kept saying he was like every time there was another guy. He's like, Oh, this is, this has to be the one, you know, look at Marcus, Marcus Harper, her ex-boyfriend. I mean, he was under the spotlight for such a long time, and he had nothing to do with this. Take me back to that interview with Marcus because I, I thought it was so fascinating to hear from him. What was it like sitting down across from him? I could definitely feel, you know, some tension, um, because they think of, of all he's been through. Imagine that for all those years, that, that you're under a spotlight. And then finally, your name is clear, that, that feeling that you have, right, of people whispering about you and looking at you and did he do it. I mean, I think it would be hard to just, just shake that off completely, right? So I think you felt some of that in the interview. Absolutely. You know, there were so many aspects of this case that reminded me of a story that I also did in Georgia. A young woman was killed. Her name was also Tara, Tara Baker, um, her ex-boyfriend. I mean, people were ruining his business. I mean, he was really going through it, like having, you know, financial impacts from all of these things that were happening. And I think that you make a great point of living under a cloud of suspicion as one thing. But then when you're in a small town and everybody knows you, everybody sees you. Yeah. It's, it's almost crushing. Yes. Yeah. And I've interviewed many men like Marcus over the years, who were, you know, they were the boyfriend or they were the suspect and they didn't do it. But once they're excluded from, you know, from the suspect list, life doesn't just instantly go back to normal, you know, it's even living with it for such a long time. It's very hard to sort of get back into the, the mix and then even then I've, I can't even tell you how many I've interviewed where they say, oh, there's still people who think I did it. Well, speaking of suspects that came up, let's talk about this YouTube video, this catch me killer. Oh my gosh. What a creep. What a creep. What a loser. Like a loser. Loser is a better word. Loser. There were so many things that I thought about this one. This happened in 2009. I mean, these are kind of, the internet has come so far in such a short amount of time. But when you think back to that time, YouTube was relatively new. This notion of people kind of uploading videos, like we didn't have social media, certainly to the degree that we do today. So I would imagine that somebody kind of uploading this blanked out, you know, this camouflaged video of themselves on YouTube, you don't see that often. And so. No. No. Yeah, it was very strange for everyone involved and they're like, what the heck. I had to think though, I just - I just kept thinking about Tara's family, and I'm like, gosh, that had to have been so hard for them. - I mean, just to know that someone's playing a game with your loved one's death, and then to think, oh, maybe we've got them and then to have that ripped away. - I mean, talk about just rubbing salt in the wound, right? - Of course. - But let's talk about pain Lindsay, because this is somebody who seemingly just happened upon this case, and really, really dove in. I loved hearing his origin story about, yeah, my grandma lived down there. I called grandma, and I mean, there was kind of a connection immediately, and he said, oh, that's a sign, let's do it. - He could not have picked a better case, you know? Truly, he had the personal connection. It was ripe to be reopened and examined, and he started to get people to talk, you know? I think it's absolutely fair to say that pain Lindsay shook the trees, got people talking, got renewed interest in the case. - It's interesting to me, when I hear, when we talk about podcasters, who one, take a sustained interest in a case to the degree that, I mean, they almost have their own case file, right? Like, had their own notes, their own, you know, research and things that they found, and then are able to move the needle forward. Because there's always a part of me that thinks, why didn't police do that? This is just a regular person, no investigative skills, no formal training, and basically it was just a doggy determination that led them to be able to bring forth some results. I mean, I think what happens is that, you know, there's a case, the police are doing everything they can, and then it cools off, and they get busy. - And again, I should say, certainly no shade to officers, because I know that law enforcement is doing their best, right, in so many of these cases and in many of these cases. You know, it was interesting in talking to him, or hearing you talk to pain Lindsay. Now he said there were some people who, a lot of people in her inner circle didn't really want to talk, right? I mean, that's something that we're familiar with, but it was ultimately, once he kind of started to build some credibility, and people said, okay, maybe he's on to something here that people started to open up. I mean, we're familiar with that, right? - I mean, imagine being, you know, a small town outsider, and you're bringing up one of the most sensitive chapters of that town's history, a high profile disappearance, and presumed murder, and you don't know these people, they don't know you, and you're asking them to talk, it's not easy. - That's not, I'm curious, I'm curious as you were working on this story, and over the course of the years that you've worked on this story, did you have you, and you know, the producers who worked on it, with you kind of have some of those similar experiences, where people were apprehensive at first, and then came around, or more willing to speak to you, after seeing that you stayed on it for so long? - Yeah, I mean, getting Marcus to sit down. Marcus was one of them, the gentleman who went forward, came forward to the police and said that Bo had told him the story at Christmas about a woman, you know, who disappeared. He opened up to us as well. - I have to say that among the many interviews that you had in here, and they were all so good, there was one that I recognized, the local reporter, Tony Thomas. - I know, I thought Tony, okay, we were local reporters together. We were rivals at Revoltations, yes. But my friends, well, we love interviewing local reporters who bring color, who've been on the case for a long time, their boots on the ground, you know, they live in that area. - Absolutely, but it does, it brings a different perspective, and Tony's such a great reporter. He's the kind of reporter when I would show up on a scene, and he was there, but Tony's here. He's probably probably knows stuff, right? - So it was a joy to see him, that was so fun. - When we come back, we have an extra clip from Andrea's interview with special agent Gary Rothwell about a long-forgotten tip that was buried in the casefile. (gentle music) - I loved the fact that Bo Dukes was listening to this podcast, and was very clearly affected by it. What kind of a person was Bo Dukes? - He came from a prominent family in town. They owned those orchards, some of the orchards in town, and he had been in the military. - Do you think that that impacted just when that first tip came through from his former army buddy? Who, hey, we went out, we got drunk, and he just started saying these things. Do you think that that, just his standing in the community impacted how he was treated? - Yeah, when you go back to the mist stuff, right? You have the army buddy who says that he told the police, they say they have no record of him telling them. And then he comes back around and tells them again, this time the GBI listens. But then there's another mist opportunity, which is the people who had started the fine terror, the Facebook group, they had given the names, Bo and Ryan. And they didn't go anywhere. So unfortunately there were mist opportunities in this case where some heartache maybe could have been diminished a little bit earlier on if the family had some answers. - I know that you had to ask the former agent about that and pressed him on it. I found myself thinking like how does something like that slip through the cracks, right? Yeah, he felt so guilty. But he said as the guy at the top, as the lead investigator, I take the responsibility and I feel terrible. And he got emotional in the interview because he did devote so much of his life to it and it could have been solved sooner. - Sure. - We have another clip with my interview with the former GBI agent, Gary Rothwell. Let's listen to that clip. - After the arrest was announced, Andy and Janice Pauk, who had run the fine terror website, they got a whole of me that night and they said, you all heard of these names before. Someone that Andy and Janice Pauk knew told them that he had been at a party, a bonfire party out the words with a bunch of people, local kids. And that a couple of guys had made statements, "Yeah, we're the ones that killed her. "We burned her up in a pit." And the way that it was interpreted, it was like they were joking, trying to get attention. And a couple of sheriff's deputies, an investigator, I guess two investigators went in and interviewed the person that had the information and then went out to the scene and used a helicopter and tried to verify it and couldn't corroborate it and basically determine that it was two guys just mocked and mouthing all the joking in a party. That information, however it was received by us was understood that it was a lead that had been addressed by local law enforcement and has unfounded. And we did not follow up ourselves and that was a mistake. - It's tough. - It did, you know, it lit with me the rest of my life. But, you know, it would have changed the trial outcome. You know, that's a counterfactual, I don't know. You feel Gary's pain talking about that because imagine that that consumes your life, a case consumes your career until your retirement. - Sure. - And wow, there was a tip that was right under your nose. - Yes. And he said, you know, the local law enforcement heard it, saw it wasn't founded, we didn't follow up. That was a mistake to hear him just, I mean, that straightforward just caught to that. - That was a mistake. - Ouch. - Yeah, but they're human, you know, and there were a lot of moving parts. There were a lot of men to look at. I mean, they did hundreds of DNA swabs. You know, so in hindsight, it's like, oh, it's like a flashing neon sign, right? This tip, no, it's when you're buried in the biggest case file in GBI history, you have to put it into context and perspective that, you know, there's no neon flashing sign. There are thousands and thousands of tips and people to look at and, you know, so you can see how things fall through the cracks. - Sure, yeah, I do not, it's just unfortunate. - Do not envy their positions at all. - Eventually they were able to take two men to trial. You know, so Ryan Duke is blaming Bowdukes. - And Andrea, we should know that at this point, Bow had already been convicted on charges related to Tara's death, including making false statements to investigators and concealing a death. They bring him in to the courtroom. And it's one of those kind of gasp moments, Bowdukes is in the courtroom and, you know, the defense, they go to ask him questions on the stand and he pleads the fifth. And, you know, what does that say to the jury? They're trying to point the finger at Bow, like he's, he's your real killer. And now he's on the stand pleading the fifth. So it gives the jury pause, like wait, like who, was it Bow, was it Ryan? - Of course. I mean, I think that you nailed it. When you asked, anytime somebody just repeatedly says, I'm pleading the fifth, I'm pleading the fifth, you're thinking, okay, clearly you have something to hide. - Right, clearly there's something going on. - Yes, is this really the right, do we have the right guy? Because, you know, they're both pointing the finger at each other. - I mean, when you listen to it, I mean, really did come down to this, who are you gonna believe, right? Which version of events are you going to believe? I mean the way this ends, Ryan Duke is acquitted, right? Like there's an acquittal. Everyone kind of has their own idea of, or their own kind of hypotheses of like what happened. It's just kind of human nature to feel incomplete. If you don't know what's happened. So naturally people want that answer. Yeah, and imagine being the family and not knowing where your loved one is. I mean, it's a whole other level of pain. The not knowing. I mean, it's bad enough that they're gone and they're presumed dead. And then hopefully someone is brought to justice. But I would say almost always, at least in the cases I've covered where there's nobody, the killers never seem to give it up. They just won't say where the person is. And I see it time and time again. And I think to myself, do the right thing. You know, close that chapter of where this person is. Like you're already going to prison. Just give the family some peace so they can at least bring home their loved one. It always feels so unnecessarily cruel. And almost like a power grab. Like this is the last power I have. Even though I'm going to prison, I have this power over you still. It's driven my cruelty, I believe. I agree with you. And how did Tara's family feel about this? I mean, it's hard. Her mother had passed away. But clearly it did not sit well with her friends and family. They felt injustice. They, you know, this was not the ending. This was not the ending that they wanted. They truly believe that Ryan did this. The people we spoke to. They don't feel like the wrong guy was on trial and that, you know, maybe Bo did this. Now, and there certainly are people who feel Bo may have done this. Even though Bo has never been charged with that crime or accused by law enforcement of killing Tara. And I will say Gary believes it's Ryan. He does not believe it's Bo. But, you know, you do have mixed feelings out there of who did it. But Tara's inner circle believes it was Ryan. But Ryan has denied it. He was acquitted. And that is the outcome. And that is what they have to live with. Andrea, this was a fantastic episode. So many twists. And I loved talking date line with you as always. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks, Blaine. And coming up after the break, we have a senior producer, Brad Davis and producer Marissa Meyer, both of whom worked on this episode, who will be here to answer some of your questions from social media. [MUSIC PLAYING] We are back. I'm date line producer Marissa Meyer, one of the producers who worked on this story. Blaine and Andrea are out in the field this week. So joining me for our social media questions is date lines with your producer, Brad Davis, who found this story. Hi, Brad. Hey, Marissa, how are you? Good. How are you doing? Good. So starting off, Linda Davis Brown on Facebook wants to know whatever happened to the Mary cop Tara hadn't affair with. Did his wife know about it? Yeah, that man's name was Heath Dykes. He, as I believe, still a police officer with the Perry Police Department, which is about an hour north of Osula, where this happened. And we have to assume that his wife found out about it. But he testified in the trial for Ryan Duke about his efforts to reach Tara that weekend. So he is still around and still a police officer. Keith Warhol on Facebook says, regardless of who committed the Tara Grinstead murder, does anyone know why she was killed? Or does anyone have any speculation as to why? The only thing that we can say about that really is that Ryan Duke initially confessed to the murder, saying that he wanted to get into her house to find some money or something that could help him with his drug habit. And that's what he said in his confession. But of course, he recanted that confession and his defense on the stand. So we're sort of left with no real answer to the question about motive that still remains an unresolved mystery. Yeah, on to our next one. The SEAL Docket podcast on Facebook says, you can hear how much she meant to her student in that whole town. Tara should still be there. Brad, you really get a sense of in the episode about Tara and how much she was loved and how much she gave back so much to her students and to everyone in her life. Yeah, she really was an active member of the community, not only at the school, but working with the young women on the pageants and was really invested in the town itself. She was the kind of person that was really missed. You and I both talked to so many friends of hers. And I've been talking to family members. Some of them didn't want to end up going on television, but they were glad that we were doing this story and preserving Tara's memory. Yeah. And something that I think we didn't get to add in the episode, Brad, didn't she also coach the cheerleading team, I think, as well? Yeah, I believe she did. Yeah, I mean, she heard her work at the school went in a lot of different directions. It was just kind of maybe 1,8, 30, 40% of what she actually did in that community. We were able to touch on. Yeah. Mary Newman on Facebook says, if it hadn't been for up and vanish and pain Lindsay, the case would still be unsolved. Yeah, he definitely got the needle moving. Yeah, that's correct. I mean, this case was definitely a situation where pain Lindsay created an atmosphere. He was, you know, at the moment that certain people were coming forward, you know, like John McCullough, Rick Sheridan, these people were coming forward. And then eventually, Bo Duke's himself comes forward. During much of that, pain Lindsay was doing his podcast. And even though he was not aware of any of those people at the time, the fact that he was doing the podcast and sort of asking questions got the community so stirred up that it created this atmosphere that I think really led people, like led Bo Duke's and Brooke, you know, to come forward ultimately. I know. I think Andrea really said it best in the episode two when she has that in her interview with pain where she says pressure, pressure, pressure. Yeah. Because it kind of feels like, yeah, he created this pressure cooker atmosphere almost that led to it. Exactly. And Brooke Sheridan and her affidavit with the GBI, when she talked to the GBI, she said, you know, the podcast was something that was weighing on Bo's mind that I think it stirred up a lot of these issues for him and eventually led her to talk to her mom who then talked to the police and then got Bo into the GBI. OK. So for our last question, this was a really big topic on Twitter, the night, the episode aired Brad. And you're from Georgia. So I think you're probably the best person for us to talk about this way. David Nealey on Facebook says, it's Puccane. There's a lot of debate on the correct pronunciation. What do you usually say, Brad? Well, I would say that David is right, that it is Puccane. That's what we say. I'm from Atlanta, and that's what we say in the South. We say Puccane. I have never heard anyone down there say Puccane. That's what I would go with. So Kudos to David to getting that right. As far as, you know, I know it's some say Puccane is still correct, which is probably fine. So it's not a dealer's choice situation. You're in Georgia. Yes, it's Puccane if you're in Georgia. Let's just say that. Puccane, Pican, let's call the whole thing off. Thank you so much for coming up and answering some social questions with us, Brad. Thank you, Marissa. And that's it for talking Dateline for this week. Thank you so much for listening. Remember, if you have questions about our stories, you can always DM us your audio or video on our social media channels at DatelineNBC. Or you can leave us a voicemail. Just give us a call at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. And you can always watch the video version of talking Dateline on YouTube and on the NBC News app and on Peacock. And of course, we'll see you Friday's on Dateline on NBC.