Talking Dateline: The Family Plot

Hi there, I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Talking Dateline, and we are joined today by the illustrious Josh Mankiewicz. Actually, the real Josh Mankiewicz, as opposed to some, you know, fakery Josh Mankiewicz, which I've been seeing on social media lately. I'm Josh Mankiewicz. I'm Josh Mankiewicz. Will the real Josh Mankiewicz please stand up? I think an argument can be made that that's the real Josh Mankiewicz. Well, wait a minute, you're the fakery guy. That's right, the other one was the real one. He looked like a nice fella. So I'm here in Boston to meet in person somebody that I really only know from the online world, and here's the thing. His name is Joshua Mankiewicz. Alert viewers of Dateline may have noticed that's also my name. So I thought it was time that we meet. Josh Mankiewicz. Josh Mankiewicz. Josh Mankiewicz. Good to meet you. Nice to meet you. You're taller than I expected. You're taller than almost any other Mankiewicz that I know. Now, anybody who has not seen this reunion of the two Josh Mankiewiczs on social media might be able to find it. Anyway, we have Josh Mankiewicz to talk about the episode, our season premiere of our 35th season. It was called The Family Plot. The story begins with a man shot to death in the. Foyer, I guess, or the hall of his in-law's house, mother-in-law's house. And then there's a long and twisted investigation to see what happened. And I will say that from very early on in this episode, nobody else may have noticed it, but I sure did, that that young detective, A, was very impressive, and B, looked so much like a guy you could see on Scandinavian murder mystery stories on television, named Olafur Olafsson. Have you ever seen him? Oh, he's the star of Trapped, which is. Exactly that. Iceland. It's set in Iceland. So good. But the doggedness and the sincerity were also shared traits, and I was an admirer of that. You did a great job. Yeah. Well, anyway, before we get to the story, why don't you listen to the episode if you haven't yet? You can find it right below this one or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here. And when you come back, we'll have more from Tracy. Tracy Grist's police interview, the night Matt was killed, and later we'll answer some of your questions from social media. All right, let's talk Dateline. This was a good one. This was just, I loved the investigative part of it. It really followed this investigative trail. What was your impression of the thing when you began to hear the details? Well, I mean, it is mind-boggling when you sort of look at this. I mean, they lured this guy from California to Utah. You know, mom sort of involved as many members of her family as she could in doing that. And they all kind of, I guess, did what she said. I guess they were kind of used to that over the years. And then they tell this phony story that Matt, the victim in this, you know, came in aggressively and pushed Kevin up against a wall and he had a knife. And like instantly, you know, there's things wrong with that scenario. I mean, it fell apart. It fell apart from the beginning. I mean, Kevin, the brother who fired the shot, the shots, he was, Matt was shot seven times. He was taken into custody that night, despite his argument that it was a self-defense shooting. The cops didn't believe that for a second. And Kevin, I think, was never out of custody again. Like, like he went in instantly and that was the end of that. And then the only question was who else was involved? The hapless Kevin, I think you could say. And by the way, if they thought they were going to. That plot started crumbling from the beginning. You know, he shot through the wrist, but he's still holding the knife. He's holding the knife in his wrong hand. He took off his shoes before he came into the living room. Right. Something that home invaders generally don't do. Well, they clearly were a bunch of amateur murderers. No question about that. I think the plan was to just make it sound like Matt was an angry, you know, vengeful guy. And he, you know, came over, barged in. You know, they'd taken the screen door off to make it easier for him to come in the house. And she says, she says to him in the calls, like, you're coming in, right? You're going to come in. I need your help with the kids, you know, getting all their stuff. And the kids stuff was not packed, which would, which it would have been if Matt's going to collect them and they're going to go home. Of course, everything about this fell apart, you know, their blankets on the furniture to keep blood spatter off it. That's not something you generally do. Kevin, who fires the shot, has a holster in his pocket. I don't think you walk around your house at night with your gun in a holster on your hip unless you're planning to or expecting to use it. That definitely stood out for police. No question. That's the old Chekhov notion that if a gun makes an appearance, it's going to be used in the next act. And it was indeed in this story. Yeah. But the. I'm interested in the architecture of this family. My impression was, and I'd like to know your impression, is that it all went back, as you said, to the mother. What was your sense of her character, her personality, her maybe her psychiatric quirks? She had gotten away with a lot of crimes smaller than this, as far as we know. But she'd gotten away with a lot of crimes like all her life. Some of them she justified by saying she needed to feed her family. So that's why she shoplifted. But she also stole money. She stole money from her friends, from people she knew regularly. And so I said, we can no longer be friends. Tracy denied stealing from Terry, but seemed fine with that long friendship being over. As long as she didn't get into trouble. She has a way of talking her way out of things that blows my mind. So what I think she thought is that I am smarter than law enforcement, kind of in the aggregate. And if we tell a plausible story, we'll get away with this too. Now, the issue of why Matt Rustelli needed to be executed can't be explained. The only issue is to save her daughter, Kate, some headache and heartache and financial responsibility in a divorce. But this was not a terrible guy. I mean, mom didn't like it. But, like. There was nothing about Matt Rustelli that should have made anybody think, let's kill him. So the mother was not only a thief and a lawbreaker, but she was, it seems to me, or at least from what I could discern, remarkably manipulative. She had a Svengali-like power over her kids. She reminds me of Sante Kimes, about whom we did a number of stories. Yeah. And in the similarity. It also includes the fact that the children are still besotted with their mother. The sons, in Kimes' case, still talk about how much they love her, even though she did all these dreadful things and made them do dreadful things. And I was fascinated by Terrolin and how she, you know, wanted to believe that there was nothing terribly nefarious going on. Terrolin is a wonderful character. And also, I think, basically, a very good person. But I think nobody wants to believe the worst about their family. And I think Terrolin has a lot in common with a lot of other families. I think it's very hard to believe that this mom that you've seen sort of get away with little things over the years has now graduated to the big time and is doing a murder. And, you know, when Kevin was arrested and then Kate, I think Terrolin still expected very quickly. You know, you can see her in this episode sort of starting to change the way she thinks about her mom and sort of what hell she sort of wrought on her brother and her sister and other people in the family, too. And, I mean, that was the huge value of Terrolin is that she's sort of changing her opinion maybe at the same time. The audience is kind of realizing, wow, this is a lot bigger than I thought. And then, you know, at the end, I think Terrolin came to and does realize the way things really are. Now, you know, I mean, there was there are people in this story in the Rustelli family who believe that Terrolin has some culpability here for which she's never been charged. But there is there really is no evidence that Terrolin had anything to do with this. Except it was her idea, apparently, to put the air tag in Matt's truck. But that was at the time when she believed that Kate was escaping an abusive relationship. So that kind of made sense in that context. Her older sister and her mother kept telling her again and again what an awful, awful person the husband was and that he was dangerous and that if you're going to leave this man, you better do it without announcing it. Because if you announce it, he might kill you. I mean, it was. that kind of serious. allegation and why wouldn't she believe it you know she wasn't right i mean nobody wants to believe the worst about their family all right well speaking of tracy when we come back after this little break we'll hear more from tracy's police interview the night matt was killed how does the adelson case intersect with this one and how did you find out about it you know we were already interested in this story um but then we found out that tracy the mom had searched online the cops found this on her devices uh had searched online um new data episode on the adelson case uh you know uh various searches about about donna adelson and and you know the two cases are so similar right i mean there's a divorce there's a contentious custody battle now in in in this case the divorce hadn't even filed yet right and it was just sort of they're sort of thinking down the road to like what's going to happen if there is a divorce and where are we going to live and who's going to live and who's going to live and who's going to live and who's going to get custody and where the kid's going to be but there was in this case an impending divorce and an impending custody battle and there was an actual one with the adelson's but in the same vein it is the mom the matriarch of the family donna in florida and tracy in utah who sort of puts this conspiracy in emotion and involves other people some members of the family in this case it was all members of the family but these two cases are remarkably stunning and i think it's a really interesting case and i think it's a really interesting case and i think it's a really interesting case and i think it's a really interesting case and i think it's a really stunningly familiar and you know look i mean sort of my you know the the question i keep coming back to is when i say to the prosecutor did they miss the part of our story where those people get caught and convicted and he just kind of shakes his head and says i um i think that tracy thought that she could do it better than donna adelson but there's also something where uh i've seen it before and i don't really wish to cast aspersions on my own but i think it's a really interesting but there are certain people who do not like whether it's father-in-law mother-in-law do not like the person who's marrying into the family sure and that dislike will get to the point where something has to be done about that person and i mean you just see how it all developed in that this family right and matt's family they have a lot in common right there are plenty of in which one or both families believe that this marriage but between their children shouldn't have happened and should end and that is going on all over the united states and that is also where you know sometimes you know manipulation of children by their parents for their own ends happens right sure you know your mother and i have thought a lot about this and we think that you and so and so should not be together anymore and i think that you are you this is a lost cause for you son or daughter and you know you should get out i think that goes on all the time uh you know parents sort of trying to run their lives by remote control run the lives of their kids but for it to go to murder well that's a little different yeah that's that's something you don't see a reach it's a reach all right i was fascinated also with kate's behavior i wouldn't have imagined it but her infidelities were kind of stunning how how long did it take after he was killed before she was out there i mean i mean he wasn't matt wasn't even in the ground when she was going on her first date it's i mean first of all there's no uh evidence that that we know of that matt rostelli was unfaithful to his wife during their marriage that certainly didn't come out um there is plenty of evidence that kate was stepping out all the time on him um as the years went by and then you know right after maddie's shot to death in her mom's living room right and she has to see his body as she leaves the house right this is assuming that she has nothing to do with it right she's still going out on a date like within a week i have to say i that is a coldness that i'm maybe i should be familiar with it but i'm not no that's that's a new one on me that kind of speed with which the behavior begins yeah and you would think that she would be aware that maybe people might be keeping track of her activities that's one thing that you sense that they sort of didn't think about was you know a murder investigation doesn't end the night the person is killed and the body taken away what kate was thinking is sort of hard to fathom um i think she was recording matt's her phone calls with matt because she thought it was going to turn up in court someday as evidence in a divorce case why she kept those recordings i don't understand i i i mean this this was not an impossible plot to unravel i mean the evidence was pretty much sitting there on their devices and and and i would like to point out police did not get all those devices the first day there was several days went by yeah when those devices and all that that damaging information was still in the it was still the property of tracy and kate now again if you if you delete that stuff uh a seasoned digital forensic examiner might be able to recover or at least reveal that it had something like that had been deleted and that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's so i mean there is that but there there clearly was a a sort of disconnect from the evidence that existed to sort of kate and tracy believing well we're home free and even if we're not home free kevin's going to take the fall not us well that was fascinating how not only would kevin take the fall but maybe he'd kill himself afterwards and that was okay with the mother they were sort of ready to sacrifice him i mean it the sense you get from listening to them is that they saw kevin as damaged an asset to be sort of used the way they wanted to without any concern for his welfare or future and essentially expendable and yeah you know he's tracy's son just like kate and tarolyn are are her children it's it's it's horrifying frankly to think about a mom thinking about her kids like that but that is apparently where we are yeah i guess so then that that phone call from jail that kevin um you know revealed that he was in part of the plot let me remind all viewers and listeners of something that is very widely known in in criminal justice work which is when you make a phone call when you're incarcerated you keith i just because i you know uh right there is a a placard on the wall in nearly every correctional facility that i have ever seen that says essentially your phone call is not private this it's being recorded and it's going to be listened to by other people something to that effect like this is not do not think of this as just private line to the outside the only time you really have any privacy is when you're speaking to someone who's not private and you're speaking with your attorney but you're talking to anybody else in your family or any one of your friends they're listening and i think kevin thought that because he had already been acquitted of conspiracy right that he could then essentially confess to it which is what he did and you know if he makes that call before the verdict well then that's evidence it comes in he gets convicted the character i liked in addition to um your young detective was the brother um mark we had two brothers but yeah mark was the mark mark was the one that yeah was primarily on the piece both seemed like fine people but but there was something about mark that really uh that really got under your skin he's a he's also he's a very good guy and i think you know as is frequently the case when this kind of thing happens people are left with sadness and anger and regret because you know he hadn't spoken to his brother in a while because the kate thing was so unpleasant and he was like you know i i just can't deal with this when you you know i don't know that he said these words to matt but i think his i think what he i think his feeling was when you finally deal with this cancer in your life which is your wife then we're gonna have a relationship again and again that is an understandable thing you cannot anyone for wanting to protect themselves and their family and their kids from sort of the psychological damage of being exposed to somebody in your life that is sort of damaging to others, right? Exposing them to this other terrible relationship that's playing out in front of them. So I think he thought like, look, you know, when you get right with your life, we'll be back. And then, you know, Matt's gone. And I think he's thinking to himself, you know, I should have called him. Well, I mean, I understand that. I don't think it would have changed anything. But it's a very understandable reaction. Sure it is. And now he raises the children, which. Now he's got Matt's kids. And, you know, I mean, that's telling you what kind of person. Yeah. Right? He is, right? Because that's. I mean, that more than whatever he did with that relationship with his brother and Kay, stepping up now and raising Matt's kids, like that tells you who he is. You know, that great old expression that Murphy came up with, it's not about the murder, it's about the marriage. It applies so well, but it's shorthand. The murder is about so much more than just the marriage. It's about all kinds of things. It's about all kinds of, you know, psychiatric difficulties that too many people face in life. You know, a guy I know who's a homicide detective says that he can classify all murders into the motive is money, love, or pride, right? It's I'm doing this for the insurance money, or I'm doing this because I don't love you anymore, but I do love this person, and I want to be with them. I want to be with them now, or it's pride. And this is pride. There's no financial windfall here for anybody with Matt Rustelli being killed. This is not about love. Kate was not in love with somebody else. Yeah, I kept waiting for the insurance payout, that there was going to be some several million dollar policy or something. This appears to be about pride, power, and control, which was sort of. I don't know who Tracy was and who she'd been for a long time, I think. We've talked about Tracy, but we also have more from her interview with police the night Matt was killed. At this point, investigators are still trying to figure out what happened, but the officer already seems to think Tracy knows more than she is telling him. So he's on to her. Let's listen. I am so in shock. I did his parents know? Did someone call? I assume someone has at this point. I've only been here with you, to be honest, so all that information I don't even know myself. So just to be, like, candid, I kind of feel like you do know a little bit more than you're letting on. Nope. Nope? Okay. It was he appeared when I was in the kitchen. I guess I'm more talking about. Kind of stuff with Kevin. With Kevin? Mm-hmm. Nope. Not at all? No idea where he was. No. Okay. Okay. Well, again, honestly, it's the best policy. I almost knew nothing. Well, I just wanted to come in here and see if you did remember anything, because, again, like I said, I know you were saying, like, a lot of "I don't knows," and so I just wanted to see if you remembered anything else and talk you through it a little bit, but nothing more. Okay. I just wanted to come in here and see if you did remember anything, because, again, like I said, I know you were saying, like, a lot of "I don't knows," and so I just wanted to see if you remembered anything else and talk you through it a little bit, but nothing more. remember anything because again like I said I know you were seeing like a lot of I don't knows and so I just wanted to see if you remembered anything else and talk it with a little bit but nothing comes to mind at all. I interacted with with Matt for like maybe three seconds and I didn't see Kevin and Matt went around the corner and by the time I got I don't I don't even know I didn't see anything all I heard was noise. What were the noises that you were hearing? The shots. That was the there was no conversation no confrontation at all. Not that I heard. Okay gotcha. Honesty is the best policy. Yeah not apparently in that family. No apparently not. I mean yeah. Fascinating to to listen to her answering questions from the officers. The the soft spoken calm composed sort of demeanor that made it sound like she was almost angelic. Yeah yeah doesn't sound like a murderer. No she's got a whole act. I mean yeah it's not hard to see why she sort of got away with things um and was able to kind of talk her way out of trouble repeatedly and it's a couple of things. One is it's sort of that persuasive gentle manner. That she has right and uh and she is smart. She is not a dumb person. I mean they made some dumb mistakes but she's not dumb. No. Well I can see why this this tale of family dysfunction would be the season premiere. It's quite a story. Where does it um you know among among family stories you have covered how does this one rate? I I would say right near the top. I mean I I it is mind-boggling. Well when we come back let's have a look at some of the social media questions that we got from this episode. Okay now we're going to answer some of the your questions and comments from social media. First we have an audio message from a Dateline viewer who did not leave their name. Hmm. I wonder why. Let's listen to that. Hi I just watched the recent episode uh called the Family Plot and I'm curious to know what flight or freeze spectrum is. I've heard of the flight or bite response but I'm not familiar with flight or freeze spectrum. And then also um there's so many questions that I had about this episode and comments but one thing that I want to comment on that brought me to tears was um Josh Minkiewicz talking to Katie and Kevin's father and encouraging him that there's so much more to life to live um despite the tragedies that have unfolded. And I did cry. I cried. I cried a little bit. Cried a lot. All right. Thank you. It was a nice little moment that you had with uh with him actually. Stan yeah I mean first of all like you you and I like we're accustomed to asking the questions in these interviews. Generally we are not asked questions by the people we interview and certainly we're not asked questions the way Stan asked me that question which is like you're kind of an expert on this. What's going to happen to me? That I've never heard that before. You being the investigative reporter and you you've seen stuff like this all the time. How am I supposed to move on from this? Does that make sense when I'm asking you? There's a myth out there that some legal proceeding can somehow turn the clock back to when your kids were not convicted murderers and Matt was still alive. You will because you have other children figure out a way to go forward from this. Uh so I was definitely unprepared. I'm glad that I actually did answer that so that that made me very happy and that's sort of why I included it because it was so unusual. Like that just I I've never had anything like that happen in in all the years at Dateline. Somebody asked me you know how am I going to deal with this over the years and I know you know this because you've seen all these people who've gone through this. Um so I'm I'm I was glad that I was able to help him at all because he's having a very tough time. I mean those are his kids too. And he will he will for some time. I mean lots of us have been through this kind of thing and and it doesn't go away. It never goes away. You just have to figure out how to deal with it. The other part of her question is the the uh the what Tracy describes as the as the what does she say the uh the fight or flight or freeze. Yeah in in the psychological terms it's frequently talked about the flight, fight, freeze, or fawn uh syndrome. And it's all sort of you know responses that different people have from their sympathetic nervous systems to how they react to a particular trauma. And so you know Tracy's saying you know when when when this trauma happened and by the way I don't think anybody believes this uh when Tracy's saying when when the shots rang out um I froze that's why I took so long to call 9-1-1. Again this is one more thing that I they clearly did not plan for. Other people are going to hear the shots. Other people are going to call 9-1-1. The amount of time that you think you have. I think they were waiting to make sure that Matt was dead. That's what I think. I think they were I think they were waiting to make sure that he couldn't testify. That he couldn't give his side of the story. And then they put the knife in his hand. The wrong hand. Unbelievably dumb. The wrong one. wrong hand yeah right and facing the wrong way in the wrong hand and i think only then did they call did they call 9-1-1 and they were pretty surprised i think tracy was pretty surprised to hear from the 9-1-1 operator yeah we already know about it we're on our way and then they were there like that because they'd already had a big lead time here's a question from 2009 kkla on instagram interesting name does the grandfather kate's dad have any contact with the kids he seemed to love matt and knew his daughter and ex were trouble uh the short answer is i don't know if he's having any any contact with the with uh with matt's kids um uh i know that the i mean i don't think there's a lot of contact between those two families at all the caveat to that might be that like stan's not really a part of that family anymore and how do you know if he's a part of that family and how do you know if he's a part of that family and how do you know if he's a part of that hasn't been for a long time so so uh maybe he will but i'm actually unaware of any contact that that he has with with his grandchildren at bobby g62 said i was wondering about the knife in his hand was it tested for dna to see who all touched it it was put there in my opinion yeah it had a mix of dna on it they did test it but it didn't prove that it was tracy's and it this poor man was set up so coldly by his own in-laws i do have a question did the police do gunshot residue tests on the mother daughter and son just to verify if it was kevin who actually pulled the trigger well no because you know kevin like admitted to it i mean there wasn't any question about whether or not anybody else pulled the trigger and also we don't know what happened in the moments after even if you even if you believe tracy kate and kevin's story we we don't it's not clear what happened in the moments after he was shot like if you fire a gun in self-defense and then hug your mom because this terrible thing just happened you can transfer some of that gunshot residue to them right so i mean that wouldn't necessarily prove anything either way it goes all over the place but no one no one denied that kevin actually pulled the trigger this wasn't about who shot matt rostelli it was about the the the plot that got matt rostelli into that living room well now we have some comments at spoony lupin which a name i absolutely love said yeah i don't think they're very good true crime fans they wouldn't have made all those rookie mistakes have to agree no argument no at she buster 85 said poor matt he didn't deserve this well i have to agree with that also no one deserves this no and then it's my gray life said this was such a great season premiere josh take a bow and lester oh my gosh this is going to be a great season i just know it and then keith i can't wait to hear from you well that may happen at some point but i i agree this is going to be a great season our 30th season i mean 35 years josh it's been a while right i mean look look when you and i joined this program in 1995 i did not think to myself oh no yeah now you're set this is the this is the this is it you'll do this the rest of your career until you retire i you know nothing lasts 35 seasons in in tv yeah it's very very very rare and that is uh that's partly because of the people that you don't see on dateline the people behind the cameras and the editing equipment and our and our producers and more than partly josh yeah yeah and and all our research researchers and the aps and all the people who fly the drones all the stuff that you sort of don't see and also you know hugely uh i hope i'm pointing at you because i never know how this comes out on camera that's the other way point the other way no no no no no um okay all right it's pointing yeah i'll do that um but somebody else yeah well there are other people too i mean there's all the other people who have not only they're not only the other people you know blaine and andrea and and lester but also all the people who have all the people who have all the people who have been dateline correspondents over the years and who sort of helped us get where we are but but like who we really need to thank uh is is you like listeners and viewers who that's why we're here about 35 years later and so thank you all of you yes it was an unexpected gift and one we're very happy to have even if it involves spending more time than any reasonable person would want to do with josh mankiewicz i knew that was coming i had i had to deliver some insult it was kind of a lame one though don't you think no it was good it was it was right sort of in character well that brings us to the end of our delightful program with mr mankiewicz and it's been nice to see you again as always well it's very nice to see you i i saw you very briefly when we were on the today show together and i don't i don't see you enough in all truthfulness despite how incredibly mean to me you are all the time i'm trying to overlook that yeah it's nice to see you josh nice to see you remember if you have any questions about uh this episode or any other episode or any question that you would like to ask us you can reach out to us on social media at at dateline nbc you can also leave us a voicemail which is 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here and let me just say like the woman who uh did not leave her name but recorded that message earlier about how great i am and i'm so grateful to have you on the show let me just say talking about how great a job i did that's going to get you on talking dateline that's just a little inside tip uh and you can also watch the video version of talking dateline on youtube or on the nbc news app keith and i and andrea and lester and blaine will see you fridays on dateline on nbc indeed we will