Talking Dateline: Out of the Darkness

Hi everyone, I'm Andrea Canning and we are talking Dateline. Our correspondent on this one is Josh Mankowitz and this is for his episode called Out of the Darkness. Hello. Let's talk Dateline Josh. Hey, how are you? I'm good. I'm ready. One housekeeping item if you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed and then come right back here. Also, we will have an extra clip from Josh's interview with the victim Bob Pointer's mother. And then Josh, you have a special talking Dateline challenge for me. I'm excited about this. Yes, I do. It's something we've discussed previously, although you've certainly forgotten about it. I actually forgot about it too, but it's going to be fun. Okay. I'm ready. Before we dive into this episode and I have a lot of thoughts, Josh, give us a very quick overview of what happened. Well, this was in 2016 in Royce City, Texas, sort of classic Texas small town, a young woman named Chasey Pointer, married to a fire captain who was considerably older. She was 29. I think he was like 46, 47, something like that. She calls her husband because her Jeep has gotten stuck on this muddy road. So he comes out there and he gets shot. And from the beginning, you know, we see, we on Dateline viewers see this story unfold almost entirely via first responder and police body cams and she's unspooling this story of what happened. Sort of from the beginning, she can't get her own story straight. I mean, first she says he doesn't know what happened. Then she saw a shadow, she saw a shadowy figure. Then it was a man. She didn't know who it was. Then later she does know who it is. It's this guy that she was having an affair with. I mean, it is a, it is a classic case of not just spousal murder, but of a murderer kind of not thinking about the story that they were going to tell until the absolute minute they were telling it. And so you are left watching this and just kind of shaking your head. She was convicted and you know, it's a, it's a terrible tragedy. And again, there's a thing called divorce. Yes. Yes, that we mentioned often on this program. So Josh, I have to say she had me at first, Chasey, because the way this show opens is very terrifying, you know, the out of breath and I'm one call, the running. I mean, it's, it's like how every lifetime movie starts out. There's a woman, you know, running through the woods. And then when the call dropped out, I thought Chasey was done. I thought somebody was after her. Then I was so surprised to see that Chasey was alive and she was then talking to investigators eventually. That's where this, her behavior really comes in and the breathing and I'm, yeah, the breathing. And then it was like, and then it was like, stop and then it was starting out. And at first she kind of had me, but the more it went on, the more I started to say, this girl needs a razzie. Yeah. That wonderful top is courtesy of Jessica DeVera as a sensational producer. Yeah. She's amazing. And you know, Jessica and I did this story and like we, you know, we didn't have a couple of the things that people usually have, like we certainly didn't have any interview with her. And you almost didn't need it though, Josh, because we had such a sense of her. We had her telling this crazy story and very herself. Right. We had her telling her own story, which, you know, at the beginning sounds crazy. And like the worst thing has happened to her and then the more she tells it, the crazier it sounds, the crazier she sounds, the more dishonest she sounds. And then you just think, okay, well, I mean, this person is a liar. And that's exactly where prosecutors came down. You know, what I love about investigators are the little things that they pick up on that, you know, me at least, I don't know about you, but I'm not a, you know, a trained investigator. So when they, when they say to her, you know, they, they say to her that the blood should have dripped down. Right. And then also that they could tell that, you know, she was standing too close, like she was standing close to Bob when the shot was fired, but she said that she wasn't. And so they said, they told her, quote, you're full of crap. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, by then, she'd already told these multiple stories. Right. And the whole thing was, you know, why didn't this woman ask for a lawyer at some point, why didn't she keep her mouth shut, at least minimize what she was saying, because then she starts going into that they're having all, they're have, they have a bad marriage and that, um, well, she says, she says when I married him, I was young and stupid. And I think an argument could be made that nothing had changed, uh, I mean, that was, I think still true on the day of Roseman's death and custody issues. I mean, all the things that lead to these day lines, you know, they, she and her husband, her husband seems like a great guy from everything we were able to determine. Not long after they were married, um, she starts stepping out on him, not with just the guy who ended up killing him, but a bunch of other guys too, um, to the point where her husband installed, I think a surveillance camera outside their front door, not to catch bad guys and not to keep the house safe, but to get a picture of one of Jay, these lovers, which I think he did. Oh, there were, there were a bunch. Yeah, um, and she said to one of the lovers, oh, I'm, you know, I wrote, um, D she didn't say, um, I wrote, um, D on my notes, I wish he'd run out of air in a fire. Yeah. Yeah. She was hoping that her husband would die, you know, in the line of duty, which, um, uh, prosecutors believe that this was all about the insurance money and that if he had died in the line of duty, I think maybe she would have gotten some additional payment too. But, you know, I mean, they also told different stories about like like the, he wasn't supposed to be killed. That was originally, you know, this was just about scaring him. She was about giving the husband a good talking to telling him, you know, to stay away from her because there was this sort of mythology that you created that he was violent and controlling and abusive and physically and verbally and it just wasn't any evidence of that. I mean, we see that a lot. Nobody seemed to believe that that was true about Mr. Pointer. Like don't you agree, though, we see that all the time where women will get the lover on board, you know, to, to do harm to their husband because they're saying he's doing this to me and that to me and he's abusive and, I mean, the reason that works is that it's true so much of the time. That's the thing, right? Oh, yes. Oh, 100%. Women very rarely commit homicide, right? They almost always find somebody else to do it for them. That's sort of how this usually goes, right? And one of the things that, that moves men to, to be the agent of somebody else, you know, in a murder is, well, this person is hurting me. This person is abusive, this person is beating me and then guys want to sort of feel like the white knight here. Yeah. And I, I actually, it took me down memory lane a little bit with a story that I did. This was about an army soldier. His name was Army Sergeant Vincent Goslin, Jr. and he was shot to death on a remote Kentucky road after stopping to help, what appeared to be a stranded motorist. At first, it looked like a random act of violence, but investigators, you know, after he was shot and covered a calculated murder for a higher plot orchestrated by his wife and her lover, prosecutors said that she lured her husband to the isolated location where the, the lover then killed him and they both pleaded guilty. So I mean, it's a very similar story. I mean, you change the names. That's the Chasey and Bob Pointer story. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's the one. Yeah. Where I had the sweat bee video. I don't know if you ever saw that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. I remember that because I was trying to do interviews and there were like a million sweat bees. Is this thing about you that's different from, well, just for example, me is that, is that you looked cool and elegant swatting away the bees. Like that's a, you know, whereas I would have looked like a, you know, like a character, you know, in a cartoon, leaving an outline of their body as they go through a wall. I mean, Josh, to be fair, I think I probably look like, Elaine from Seinfeld, you know, her, like, you know, that really weird dance that she does that's like on all the memes. I think I looked more like that to be honest with you, but thank you. You looked better. You looked better. Um, speaking of TV shows, I definitely was thinking a lot about Orange is the new black, the TV show, because of the sheer number of times, Josh, that you mentioned Orange and how people would look in Orange. Okay. I mean, can I go, wait, can I go through them first, just before you respond? Sure. You had, okay, so first you had, um, I rock and Orange jumpsuit, Orange is the new black, the male version. That was from Michael Garza, the lover, the killer, then the killer, then you had Chasey saying, I don't look good in Orange. And then you had one more, you had Michael Garza actually in the orange in the mug and you said that he looked as about as good as you think in orange. It's not every day that you hear a killer say I'll do it and I'll I rock an orange jumpsuit, right? In other words, I'm going to get caught, right? And then they do get caught and then you do see them in an orange jumpsuit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which when we come back, we will have more from your interview with Bob Pointer's mom and her name is Candy. The other thing that was like really crazy about this was Michael Garza's alibi. I mean, we've heard a lot of alibi's over the years, but he was milking a cow. Yeah. Yeah. In the middle of the night. Yeah. What? Again, this is a, you know, I mean, you hear cops sometimes say we don't catch the smart ones, right? Sometimes they do catch the smart ones, but like a lot of times who they catch are literally people who like chase you tell like three different stories in the first three hours or actually probably less than that. Michael Garza who, you know, says things like I rock an orange jumpsuit and his alibi is I was milking a cow like, like you want to have, you know, your cell phone at some different location at that moment, you know, you want to have somebody testify, I don't know, you know, Mike and I were having a beer at the saloon, right? But, you know, I mean, you know, when you are dumb enough to commit murder and dumb enough to immediately lie about it in a way that's going to get caught and dumb enough to hire a guy like that, you kind of deserve what you get. Yeah. I mean, the whole plan was just so full filled with holes and the result is like, you know, there's kids without a dad and yeah, a mother, the mother with out her son, you know, Bob Pointer was one of those guys who did not lose touch with his mom over the years. Like they spoke all the time, I mean, I think safe to say she was like, maybe his best friend, which is why interviewing her was sort of, I thought Paramount in this. Josh, we have an extra clip that from your interview with Bob Pointer's mother, we are going to take a listen. Just tell me a little bit more about what he was like as a dad, just so I guess the Addison. The Addison? Oh my God. He adored her. I mean, from the get go. I mean, she looked as like him. She loved, I mean, he just doded on her. He would cook, teach her how to cook, they were cooking and Bobby loved her cook, Bob loved her cook. So he even said, "Oh, mom, I think of a couple of weeks before he passed away." He said, "I want to get Addison, even a chef's coat, she likes to wash the food network and all that." And I want to, I mean, when we started research, we were right away to buy her one. You'd let Addison put red nail polish on her. Oh, totally. It was pictures of him with his glasses, I'm painting his nails or her nails and he's painting her nails. I thought, "Oh, Lord, he was just a gentle soul. He was like a gentle giant, I would call him sometimes, because he was so big." One of the things that comes out of that, I think, is that, you know, he was a very involved dad, not just to the daughter he had with Chasey, who was, I think, six and a half when he was killed, but also to his two older daughters that he had with his first wife. He was a big part of all of their lives and, you know, again, that's sort of an extra tragedy out of all this. And we talk about all the time, kind of the ripple effect of murder. Here's, like, maybe a lesson. Why do spouses allow, you know, increases in life insurance policies or more life insurance policies when they maybe aren't in the best marriage or maybe they know someone's cheating in the relationship. And then you always hear these stories about just months before the murder or, like, sometimes it's like days they up their policy or added more policies. Look, you know, another case that always sort of springs to mind happened a long time ago here in California, the murder was a, had been a jeopardy champion. And he poisoned his wife with, with nicotine. And she was sick for a long time and the doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong with her. And her friends were saying to her, "I can tell you what this is. This is your husband. He's trying to kill you. He's making you sick somehow." And she said to them, "Oh, he wouldn't do that. He loves me. That wouldn't happen." But she took him off her life insurance. She made her sister the beneficiary of her life insurance and she didn't know. He did not know. No, you got it. You got to tell. You got to tell the husband. A couple of days after she died, he's on the phone with the life insurance company. He's like, "I'm sorry. What?" Right? No. No, no, no, no. You're going to do that. You need to say something. My point is, thinking to yourself, I need to protect myself is one thing or I'm uncomfortable with this or I'm going to take my husband off the insurance. That's sort of easier to do than to confront someone and say, "I want you to know something. I've taken you off my insurance." And the reason is, I don't think you have my best interest in heart. That is so much harder than calling the insurance company and saying it's the beneficiary to my family member. Very, very true. Very true. You know, it was interesting, Josh, that the jury said in the end that they didn't think Chase killed Bob for money, which I didn't really get because she still gained this money and then the jury, did you get that? I mean, that is correct that the jury did not believe that. The jury did believe that this was for financial gain. He had a insurance policy of between $500,000 and a million dollars. But I would say that it's reasonable to believe that they didn't really know why they were killing it. I mean, to suggest that this was just for money, like I never believed that this was about her and Michael Garza being together. I mean, she had a bunch of other guys that she was seeing too, like we're going to get this money and run off together. Like, she wanted to be free. I think she thought maybe the money might make life easier, but the idea that the money was the motive for this, I don't know, but yes, she was not convicted of murder for financial gain. All right, Josh. Up next, you are going to take over for a special talking date line challenge. You do not want to miss this. Okay, welcome back to talking date line. Now, instead of taking your social media questions, Andrea and I are going to play a game. And it is one that you and I talked about a year ago back on this podcast. So let's go back in time here. Andrea was talking to me about a lawyer, an attorney that she had interviewed for her episode called Poison Twist, which is about a chiropractor's poisoning death in New York. So let's listen to what Andrea and I were talking about after that on talking date line. She's fellow Canadian and I picked up on her accent immediately during our interview. She was saying a boat and, you know, I said, you're Canadian, aren't you? She's from Niagara Falls. Can you automatically instantly tell when somebody's Canadian? I feel like I have that radar, you know, that special, is, would you call it radar? I don't know if that's the right term, but absolutely. I mean, I can pick out actors, I can pick out lawyers, I can pick out anybody pretty much instantaneously. As soon as like, you know, I just need a few words, choice words, and then we're good. I know. Girls, by the way, like a social media contest that is upcoming, I can see this coming. I'm going to be the moderator. So yes, this is a, this kind of thing is sort of why talking date line exists in my view. So we have outsourced a task to some of our fabulous date line ambassadors, the people who tell you on social media this episode or that episode is upcoming and who's going to be on. And we have had some American and Canadian date line viewers and listeners sent us voice recordings of the same sentence and the sentence is, for the record, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry. Now I'm feeling the pressure though, because of that statement that I made. So Andrea, we're going to play some clips of people saying that line, and you little miss Canadian and can identify other Canadians, you're going to guess whether the person speaking is American or Canadian. Here is clip number one. For the record, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry. American or Canadian? I mean, she sounds like that's not how they would say it in my town. So she sounds American to me. American is correct. Yay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's good. All right. Um, okay. Clip number two. Sorry. She's definitely Canadian. The sorry gave it away. I think both the sorry and the about. Yeah. Okay. So, um, that person is Canadian. Okay. Yes. Uh, so far, you're banning your banning a thousand. Yeah. Would you like to risk it all? Andrea and go for clip number three. I would. Here we go. I'm sorry. She definitely, she sounds American, but if she's Canadian, then she's, she's not saying it how Canadian say it. That's not an answer. Judges. Okay. Sorry. Not you. American. She's American. American is correct. Yay. Okay. Andrea three for three. You know, it's funny. Josh is that I was when I was in Taiwan recently on my other story. I was at the national park and this man came up to me and started talking to me and I said, you're Canadian. And he said, yes, I am. How did you know that? And I said, because I'm Canadian and I can pick a Canadian, even out of a Taiwanese national park. So, so you are three for three. Now, um, in baseball, um, you know, three for three gets you in the hall of fame. If you can do that, you know, your entire career. So here's the record. I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry. That person is American. What? That, how is that possible? She said, she didn't, is she like for Minnesota? Oh, yeah. I see. Josh, that, that was a, that was a red herrings ringer because she's too close to Canada. And they talk so much like Canadians. That's the one fly in the oinkment judges. They don't care. Um, also, there's no one over here. Well, I'm looking at it. Um, see, I, I can't, I don't know enough people from Minnesota, I guess, to be able to separate the Canadian Minnesota accent. I'll give you a little grace. Here's clip number five for the record. Sorry. Definitely sounds Canadian unless they're from a Northern state, but I'm going to go with Canadian. Canadian is correct. Okay. Okay. All right. At least I got, I got four out of five. So, right. And now finally, for all the money in the world, plus an RV and a shaperone trip to Port of Viara, how about to Minnesota? Okay. Sure. And, uh, a gift certificate from the Spiegel catalog, Spiegel featuring value selection in economy. Spiegel Chicago Illinois 60609. Can you tell that I watched a lot of game shows growing up? You probably can. Yes. Yes. Roll it. Number six. Sorry. That one's kind of in between. I'm going to go with American, but it could be, could go either way. I hate to see you go out on all those, no, no, no, that person was Canadian, but I wish I knew where these people were from. But I have to say, you, uh, you backed up your claim, I think. I think you do. For the most part. I think you're, I think you're, you're able to say that you've got, you've got to fail safe or pretty close to it, sense of who's from Canada and who isn't. So. Yeah. I, I got to study the, the dialect a little more, you know, the, the Northern states. We want to thank you for playing. We have a home version of our game. Could you imagine? Uh, Josh, well, thank you so much for this. It was very fun. As always, fun and also interesting and fascinating because we are dealing, of course, with very heavy subject matter. So it's nice to have a little moment where we can smile, right? Yes, it is. Also, like Keith, you would have crushed Keith in that competition, by the way. That, you know, that would have been interesting to have Keith and I go ahead to head. I wonder what he would have, um, how he would have done. Um, actually, this, well, this is not airing while we're taping this right now, but it is Keith's birthday. It is Keith's birthday. Yes. Everybody wish Keith a happy birthday. It'll be a little belated when this comes out, but happy birthday to Keith. Happy birthday. Well, that is it, Josh, for talking dateline. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you all for listening. And thank you to the dateline ambassadors who shared their voices for this challenge. Thanks, Jessica McCourt Hughes, the slickest Rick, JoJo Montana, Kaitlyn Clark, Anna Falkowski, and Erica Grimalti. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can DM us your audio or video on our socials at Dateline NBC, or leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. And you can watch the video version of Talking Dateline on Peacock or YouTube, or subscribe to the NBC News app. We will see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.