Talking Dateline: Deadly Intersection

[MUSIC] >> Hi, everyone, I'm Andrea Canning and we are talking "Date Line." Today, I'm joined by Lester Holt to discuss his episode "Deadly Intersection." If you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the "Date Line" podcast feed and then come right back here. Later, we will have an extra clip from Lester's interview with Sarah Rucker. She is the friend who introduced Keith to Jackie. But first, let's talk "Date Line." Hey, Lester. >> Hey, Andrea, thanks for doing this. Have a me on. >> Sure. Yeah, this was a really interesting episode. And it was a national news story that I actually remembered. So I remember you covering it on "Nightly News." I love seeing the slightly older clips of you, not too old, um, you know, talking about the case. >> Yeah. We talked about that case a lot because it really touched a lot of fierce people have about, you know, homeless people, about, you know, people collecting money on the streets. And then, I mean, someone killed because they were a good Samaritan. So that's, I think, why they came nationals so quickly. >> Yeah. Lester, just give us a really quick overview of the case. >> Sure. Jacqueline Smith is writing in a car with her husband, Keith and his daughter, Valeria. 911 gets a call from Keith that says, "My wife has just been stabbed by panhandlers." Medical authorities were down to her dead. In this launch to huge manhunt, they eventually find a couple of suspects along the way that seem promising at first, but ultimately were not. But the arrest was finally made. And it was the husband, Keith, in this case, his daughter, Valeria, was also suspected in the killing. And how they got them, I think, is perhaps the most fascinating part of the story. They used a wiretap. And also just some video evidence of where they were and where they said they were that night. And we should say that Valeria pleaded guilty to accessory to murder after the fact in exchange for testifying against her father. Keith was found guilty of first-degree murder. >> Yeah. And we're going to get into the video because on so many fronts, because I truly think Keith doesn't realize how many cameras are everywhere in the world. And that was his downfall, to say the least. Lester, it sort of got you thinking, as I was watching it, about how we feel about homeless people and about panhandlers. And at face value, though, of course, Lester, it seemed horrible, even Oprah. I mean, I don't remember that. I don't remember Oprah weighing in, but I was really surprised to see that. >> Yeah, Oprah was a longtime news anchor in Baltimore, but back in the '80s, I think. So she still has Baltimore connections, I assume. But she had put a tweet out there about this case and about basically saying, look, I've given 1,000 times to panhandlers on the street. And now I'll think twice. And that's probably the worst thing for people of this population, is to have someone, especially that stature, to kind of lump them all up in one group. And I don't just single out Oprah. I think a lot of people were probably feeling this way. And remember, Baltimore had a pretty lousy reputation back then. The murder rate was soaring. So there were a lot of reasons for people to kind of buy in to this story and believe this story. And it gave people an excuse to be wary of people without homes. >> Yeah, I mean, Keith Sly had a big impact. >> Oh, I mean, look at this population of homeless people who became casualties of this story that he came up with, a story like that. It just didn't stand up at all. >> And I realize it's a personal question, right? Everyone kind of deals with these things in their own way. Like, do you, do you open your window? Do you give them money? >> I mean, that was why the question I think was so important about, you know, Hey, it's Jackie, the kind of person that would do this. I think a lot of people have asked that question because it becomes the root of this whole thing. Why would someone roll down their window on essentially deserted intersection and raining and encountering someone who's looking for money. And especially once you've given the money, the last thing you imagine is that they're going to attack you. So that, I think, that was one of the many things that began turn heads made police kind of go back and look at some things. How could this happen? Why would something like this happen? And every law enforcement person I interviewed, I said, have you ever had a case of a homeless person or a panhandler attacking anyone unprovoked? And they all shook their heads no. So that was, you know, one of the first little bits of this story where things started to crumble a little bit. >> I am so curious, Lester, what you thought of Keith and Valeria's interview with the local news that they did shortly after Jackie died, where the news reporter is doing a very serious story about what has happened to Jackie and Keith was there, you know, Valeria was there, like, you know, how, how did you think of their responses? >> It's a difficult one because it gets down to that idea. What can you make of another person's grief about whether they're crying enough or not enough? And there was a part where Valeria, the daughter in this case, she's kind of nestled into her father's arms as she's tearfully telling this story. Her body language suggests that she's crying, but at the same time, her eyes don't really give much away. And I feel horrible describing it that way because it is a, you know, from many stories you've covered, Andrea, it's kind of a fool's errand to decide someone's guilt or innocence based on whether they have enough tears. But I remember looking at that, a pretty long chunk of it and saying, you know, I feel like you're trying to convince me of something and it's not in a good way. >> Yeah, and I do think that is a bit of a tell. When someone is sort of crying, but no tears are coming out, I always think that's kind of a bad sign, you know, or can be. And I also, it was brought up very briefly about that Valeria had a substance abuse problem at one point. How, how was that reporting done? >> Yeah, friends of Jackie, a police had mentioned that she had some kind of addiction and that that might have been a source of friction that her father was going to helping her out. You know, she was going through bad times. He provided a place for her to live at one point. And that was irritating Jackie and their speculation that that bad blood might have made, you know, Valeria a prime suspect. >> And you talked about this friction luster. I was shocked at the wedding section when they talked about Keith and Jackie's wedding. I mean, you want to talk about fireworks at a wedding. Like, this is supposed to be one of the happiest days of their lives. And I mean, the stuff that they're talking about, like, I'm, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was messy by, by all accounts. >> And I feel horrible. As I was talking to her best friend, you know, Sarah, we talked a little bit about, you know, this is her day. This is her moment. Who wants to be that person that's going to rob a bride of her, of her moment. But at the same time, it was informative in terms of forming this, you know, what was extent of the relationship here between Jackie and her new family in this case. And, you know, that's something that police definitely looked at as they tried to discern a motive. >> Absolutely, especially when you're bringing Valeria into the possible motive here. What do they believe was the motive in the end? Was it money or was it that that Keith was upset that Valeria was upset? >> Yeah, it was, it was money. In this case, you know, Jackie had an $800,000 life insurance policy. That in itself doesn't make you a murderer, but that's, but that's a lot of money. It's a lot of money, and that's what, you know, police kind of zeroed in on. I personally, I've always felt there was more to this story in terms of a motivating factor, but I'm not a police officer. >> I want to talk about, so you just said Jackie had this big, you know, policy and she probably had some decent savings and everything. I just want to talk about how smart she was. You know, this is, she's an electrical engineer, and she's at what the army's Aberdeen proving ground. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And Jackie sounds just like this genius, right, with math and numbers and engineering and everything. >> Yes, it was apparently, and they even Keith described it as very sophisticated work she was doing that he couldn't quite explain. But this was a case, very, very smart lady. We was kind of described that she's the kind of person that doesn't get close to you, doesn't open up right away, but when she does, she's all in. But she had developed, you know, this great reputation at the proving ground and was just by all accounts adored. >> Yeah, we always pass that Aberdeen proving ground on her way to Navy football games when we're going down the interstate. So yeah, I mean, so she, she was clearly loved. She clearly had a lot of fun. You know, they talked about how she would, you know, dance the night away at events. And of course, her dancing, you know, that actually comes into play later with as a big clue for investigators. >> Yeah, we have this video, surveillance video in the bar in which she and Valeria and Keith are all sitting there and they don't move. Yeah, the idea of this, you know, dance the night away just wasn't playing that night. I would love to have been a fly on the wall. I know police would have as to what words were even exchanged during that awkward silence that appeared to exist for quite some time at that dance hall. >> And this This is what I was getting at at the beginning when I said it appears Keith is unaware that there are cameras everywhere you go. So once they start, the law enforcement starts digging in to, you know, what was going on that night. I mean, first of all, they find out he wasn't where he said he was, then they find that video on camera at the hospital. He's talking to 911, but he's standing at the ambulance bay at the emergency room. And I know that I'm standing there, I'm going to be dragging my wife or carrying my wife or whoever I'm bringing into the ER and screaming, we need help now. Right. Running in or having a panicked demeanor, there was no panic. Yeah, but the suspicion was, it's horrible as it sounds, is that he's waiting for her to die. Oh, I didn't even think about that. That's horrible. I mean, you know, maybe I don't know if she was lifeless at that point, and I want to get too gruesome here, but I do know that when they matched up that video, that was a huge tell. It's like, are you kidding me? Yeah. I mean, it was, there was sort of a theme of Keith's words versus his actions. Right. They weren't matching up. No, they weren't matching up at all. And, you know, I think you can understand why he might have left the scene of the crime. He called 911. She's at the hospital now and help is literally steps away. But how are they supposed to know inside the ER? Right. One of the more fascinating things to me if I even get ahead of you is, you know, they talked to Keith on different occasions. And for a long time, they never let on to him that he might be a suspect in this thing. I kind of looked at it at the lens of, you know, he's finding, he's finding his footing. He's finding how much room he has to operate, what they know, what they suspect, what they think. But he in Valeria did a great job of sticking to their story. It did. And it was pretty consistent. They did. And then they brought in the female detect. I'm sorry. I know I'm not. This is a very serious story, obviously. But she was cracking me up, right? Because she was tough. She was tough, man. I was ready to confess to any kind of point. Right. Like, I was like, don't mess with this woman. She would scare me in an interrogation room. Yes. Sure. I've always found interrogation room scenes just incredible to watch the different styles of police now. They have a get there. But they had clearly rattled Valeria. This is going back to the day that police basically raided her home. They came in with a warrant, you know, and they began really putting the pressure on her. And she was ticked. You could tell she was ticked. This idea of being, you know, brought from her home, being asked these questions. But she didn't follow. It was interesting. She didn't follow. No. I mean, I guess you got to, yeah, she was certainly was strong in that way, not that that's a good thing given how the story ends, but she was. When we come back, we've got an extra clip from Lester's interview with Sarah Rucker. She talks about how difficult it was to accept that her friend Keith could have been her other friend, Jackie's killer and her guilt about introducing them. Lester, there were so many smart investigative tactics that happened in this case. And, you know, after Valeria, you know, is in the interrogation room, they, you know, they've tapped their phones, right? Of course. So they're waiting and waiting. And then eventually that call happens between Valeria and Keith and she's saying her dad. She's saying, you cannot do me like this. And he's trying to calm her down. And I, it's so fascinating to be a fly on the wall in an investigation like this where things are happening. And it feels like you're, like, it feels like you're there in the moment. She's just crushed and she did feel like she was being kind of left out there. And that's when he said, you know, I'm going to bring you something or take something to you. Well, and I could not believe it when they intercepted the package with the phone. That was really slick. I've never seen that one before. I was going to send you the phone because we're betting that you're going to give this phone to her. And that's exactly what happened. They, they, they, they rewired the phone, if you will. And then it's sure enough and put it back in the mail system. It gets a mail to her unbelievable. I mean, that is like right out of a movie when you see something like that. Yeah, I never, I never seen that tactic. I hadn't either. Uh, okay. So the, some, everyone's in a while. You get little moments in date line where you laugh or you're, maybe you're allowed to laugh because we do deal with such serious subject matter. However, um, as a Canadian, when, when Keith called the airline and said, "I'm going to get to Canada," I was, I, I actually, I was on the plane watching this and I actually started laughing because the, the great big city of Canada. Right. He goes, he goes, wait, you need a passport to Canada? Yeah, the way, the way he said it, and I think I said something to, uh, the, uh, the prosecutor about it was something like, you know, I mean, he just had to sit back and laugh and then they admit it, yeah. And it was funny too because I had, I always, you know, I type up my notes as I'm watching just so I, you know, remember everything that I'm seeing in the, in the shows. And right after I typed it up and was laughing on the plane, then the prosecutor said exactly the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Do I need a passport? Yes. You need a passport. Yeah. I want to call him a dummy in this moment. Well, he also pointed out something we've all, we've all discovered is that criminals are not the brightest lights, you know, Keith made a lot of mistakes in this one for sure. And that's actually good for the good guys in this case. I mean, the way that they take down in the end, um, how they got there was just breathtaking and its sophistication and how quickly things moved. When, when the investigator was in the vehicle on the side of the interstate and I realized, you know, it's an interview for Dayline, I, but I actually felt like, like he was ready to go take him down, like in that moment as I'm watching, you know, I felt like it was almost like happening, even though I know it wasn't. Well, and the, remember, this is a police officer from a different jurisdiction. Yeah. He's a Texas trooper who's now caught up in this thing. And I'm sure it's probably exciting for him, but a little scary. You're, you're taking down this person, you know, by yourself. You don't know if he's armed or what potential threat that he may pose. But he said they're watching white cars go by. Yes. I was feeling the, I was feeling the tension just like I was watching some kind of an action movie. That's what I'm saying. So I know it was, that was an interview, I could feel the tension you, you, that's exactly, you hit it on the nose. That's exactly how I was feeling. And then because you had the surveillance video right afterwards, it really felt like you're in the moment. Because then you see him telling them to get out of the vehicle. And you're like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Remember, he was just a minute. So it was a 20, 20 minutes from the Mexican border. So they had a very short amount of time to put the wheels literally, the wheels in motion to make this arrest. And also the, the, you know, the investigator sitting there not wanting those cars are zoom in by, you know, you, you, you have to be an eagle eye. I realized he had a certain plate, right, that he was looking for, which probably helped like a different state. But he played it. I don't know what, he probably at the time didn't realize what an important role he was playing. Really? That's that trooper. But it was, it was an amazing piece of police work and, you know, it was the, it wasn't the end of the story, but it was, it was everything that set up the end of the story. Yeah, yeah. I did a date line that was in Canada where a guy got a private jet and was the, the jet was literally fired up on the runway, you know, ready to go with the killer and just like out in the movies, you know, there they were like to stop the plane from taking off, you know, it's, it's those nail-biter moments that are, you know, they happen. They happen. So you, Lester, you have an extra clip from Jackie's friend Sarah Rucker who really struggled to believe that, that Keith could be capable of something like this. Yeah, this was, you know, these were as a close group. They call themselves the divas, the friends of Jackie's and, yeah, when this is all happening, you know, they're all kind of looking back like this, this couldn't be Keith. We know he would never do anything like that. I don't want to fully characterize, you know, how they saw it as a, as a team, but individually, I think some of them were definitely questioning, you know, would Keith be capable of something like this. Sarah talks about that, you know, having brought these two people together and then for this horrific ending that, that no one could possibly have, have thought of, takes, takes the life of rent here. You can listen. Was there a special burden with having been the person who brought these two individuals together? Yes. The acceptance of that, the person that you loved and don't usually keep your girlfriend safe and love her unconditionally is now being accused and has been convicted of murder in her. You have to live with that guilt, which I do. And it's just still hard for me to believe that these are two people that I loved and I thought we're happy and now she's gone and he's got life in prison. You call Keith your brother and you call Jackie your sister? Mm-hmm. Yes. It doesn't cut much deeper than that. It's a heavy load you're going to have to carry. I'm going to have to carry for the rest of my life. Is it that make you more hesitant to think of him as a killer? It may, it has a symbol when you have evidence pointing. directly in your face, you have to accept it. And I did it, I finally accepted it when they said, "The guilty verdict, she got her time, "he got her time his time." And it was like more like a law did what it was supposed to do. And her killer is now serving life in prison. So you have to accept it. - So I would say to Sarah, you should guilt is a wasted emotion. You should have no guilt. You did nothing wrong. You brought two people together that you thought were a great match. And who on earth would know that someone would be capable of something like that in the situation? - Well said. - So yeah, up next, your questions from social media. Lester, there were a ton of social media questions about this episode. A lot of people were watching from Baltimore. They remembered when this took place. Several people even wrote that they knew Jackie. This case, as we've been talking about, had a big impact on the community. I'm gonna read one message from Tanda Ridgley. She wrote on Facebook. I personally knew this couple. They attended my church for several years. Our congregation was heartbroken about sister Jackie's death and equally shocked about brother Keith's role in the crime. She was an intelligent, caring, and warm person. She was very encouraging to me after my mother's passing. May God continue to heal and comfort the family. And then I'll just, I'll just read you another one really quickly. This one's from Superfan and Dateline Ambassador, Netsie Smith on Facebook. Hey, Dateline is watching from Maryland. Very familiar with this tragic story. My sister was on duty in the ER when Jackie came to the hospital. Very sad. So clearly Lester, this had a big impact. Yeah, Baltimore is a big city, but it's not that huge a city that people wouldn't know each other in many cases and neighborhoods. And I think as we kind of touched on this story, it's a stain that no community needs. And certainly not this one given its history of violence. Yeah. All right, so we have an audio question, Lester, that we got about Jackie's family. This is from Bethany. Let's take a listen. Hi, Bethany here. Long time, watch her and now podcast listener. It was so great to see Lester on a full episode. Great job, it's me. Just a quick question. I was curious if Jacqueline's son had any thoughts about Keith. Thanks again. Well, thanks very much. I love Dateline. I love now that I have a chance to do more full two hour shows. So look for more of them in the future. But to your question, we reached out to Jackie's sons. They decided they didn't want to participate in the program. Our hearts go out to her sons for what they've had to endure. Lester, we have another audio question. And this one is about motive. Yes, the episode tonight, I never did hear why other killed his wife. I just want to know if y'all know. Thank you. Thanks for calling in. Investigators believe that money was the motive. The feeling was that he had done this to basically improve his standard of living after her deaths. Yeah, Lester, I think there was so much going on with the investigation. It's one of those fast and furious shows that-- No, I get it. There were a lot of moving parts in this story, and that was one of them. Lester, finally, we got several questions about Valeria. The question that we saw the most was this one. This one came from Pearl, Arlene Wayne, right? This stepdaughter never had any tears when she was crying. We talked about this earlier. Lois Davis, not a tear in her eye during the interview standing beside her dad. And then Lori Jarrah's burger, that daughter is fake crying. No tears. Exactly what you and I discussed. Yeah, and remember, you know, authorities had some of the same questions, mostly centered on the idea of why she was doing all these press conferences and what they hoped to gain. At one point in one of them, I think you may have heard, he talks about some legislation he wants, about controlling panhandling, which seemed a little far-field given the immediate situation they were dealing with. But yeah, everybody comes back to behavior. It's a common thing, but one thing we've learned from police certainly doing these stories over the years is be careful of getting target fixated on, you know, their appearance in their words, you know, out in the field or the ultimate determinator of whether they're guilty or not. But it's interesting how a lot of us kind of came upon that particular thing. Human nature, right? And also, you know, regardless of what people were thinking when they were watching, the detectives followed the evidence. You know, they didn't follow their guts, they didn't follow tears, they followed cold hard facts. Yeah. And you know what they also didn't do? They didn't fall into the trap of the husband did it. Now, ultimately, you know, we know he did, but they definitely stood back and said on several occasions, look, you know, we have evidence now, but not enough to take us there. They were determined to get, you know, an arrest and a conviction in this case. Yeah. They kept going. And always interesting, Lester, when you have sort of a regular news story, it appeared at the time, you know, intersects with a day-line murder mystery, right? That it's so much more than what had appeared on the surface. Thank you so much for this really, really interesting episode. Thanks for talking, date line. Sure. And thanks to all the folks who are watching. Appreciate it. Yeah. And that is it for talking, date line this week. Thank you for listening. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can DM us your audio or video on our socials at date line NBC or leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. And you can watch the video version of talking, date line on peacock or YouTube or subscribe to the NBC News app. And we will see you Friday's on date line on NBC.