#TalkBack: can fare incentives really ease Singapore’s peak-hour crush?

Now, talk back with Daniel Martin on CNA 938. This trial fascinated me. It was the idea of trying to do with the morning rush hour. And if like many of you are in the trains on the buses, and it can get uncomfortable and packed, and the rush can be significant, and you feel just dragged on by it, and sometimes you're missing a train because it's full of things like that. Okay, so here's what this little trial did. It was a trial on the northeast line and the Sunkang Punggol LRT. They offered free off-peat morning rides to commuters boarding between Punggol course and Kovun before 7.30am or between 9.49pm, so not in the smack dab middle of 8.30pm. The result? Peek-a-ro-crowding drop by 9%, you see any pulse sung with more. Team Transport Minister Jeffrey Xiao says the shift is a win-win situation for commuters who either enjoy a less crowded train ride or a free one. Regarding the impact of rising fuel cost on public transport, Mr Xiao notes an annual fair-reviewed exercise has not begun yet. Now I want to be clear, okay, there is no official word or mention that there will be a policy or scheme of free off-peat rides. There's none. This was a trial, and there is no guarantee that this will expand beyond that location as well. But it is interesting to note that when you look around the world on other busy cosmopolitan places, fair incentives have been attempted to try and ease congestion. Look at Melbourne Victoria, for example. This was brought to my attention by one of the producers on Singapore today, who told me about it and then we researched it and put it into the fact sheet for today. Free public transport in Victoria in April and May, and fairs would be slashed by half until for the rest of the year. And the extension of that free public transport initiative was designed to help curb demand for fuel and provide economic relief amid the knock-on effects of the conflict with Iran. Ah, I see, interesting. So that's the approach there. Would a free off-peat ride get you to change your travel time? What's at me? Let me know. Send a voice, not call in. Have you say it's talk-back with Daniel Martin. Call in, 669-11938. Or WhatsApp, 963-11938. Always good to welcome back, transport analyst, Terence Fanassist, and professor in strategy and entrepreneurship, SMU. And I think my resident train enthusiast, I will christen him thus. Hello, professor Fanass. Yes, good to speak with you, Daniel, and very great to be invited again. I want to know, first and foremost, this, again, this was a trial everyone. There's no guarantee that this scheme is going to be a bubbling scheme of any kind. This was to see whether or not they could have the desired effect. Let's talk about the desired effect. 9% peak hour crowd dropped by 9%. From a public transport point of view, professor Fan, is that significant enough to have impact in terms of comfort and pace and crowd for the average commuter? Yeah, that's a good question. To me, I have to look and see exactly how they define crowding here. But from what I understand, it's a difference between, let's say, the trains being crowded, but if you really want to squeeze in, you can still squeeze in like a couple of people versus the point where you really can't squeeze in, you know. But in any case, in both definitions, I think a 9% will close to 10% reduction in that kind of situation is significance because it's a difference between you being very, very close to the people around you to you being a little bit away and you can kind of share me yourself. Like, remember if you're in the middle of the carriage and then like the next stop is your stop. Does the anxiety know about being able to get to the door sometimes? Yes, yes. So I think that makes for a much more, much less anxious ride throughout. And I've been taking the train on a regular basis this whole year on a daily basis. And I realized that, you know, trains, public transport is wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. I love our train system. But if I was an elderly person, I might prefer to sit or stand at a particular side of the train because of the movement and the jerking and things like that. You know, the parts of the train that you want to have the ability to go and stand in if you're a person who is an older individual or younger person. So that 9% potentially could give you some wiggle room, you think? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think what you're trying to get is to have something to lean on so that if the train moves in a certain way, you're kind of like you're, you know, girded in some way so that you move forward. You don't want to stand in the middle. I can't remember my physics or centrifugal force, but standing in the middle might be less stable than standing at the sides against the wall, right? Maybe potentially. Yeah, because if you're on the wall on, you know, one of the poles or something in case, you know, if the movement goes one way, you can kind of lean into the pole, lean into the board or wall or something, you know, and then if you're on the other side, you can still kind of balance it because you know, they're on the other side. You know, you have the wall, you can kind of always use it as a bit of a support. So I think having that little bit of space to move around helps. And I think I noticed some people actually make way these days to some of the elderly folks. And some of the elderly folks are actually just strong enough to say, "No, you know, I know enough, well, I don't need it." So I think it's, you know, but if the train is really crowded, you can't, you know, even if you see someone in need, it's just too much of a hassle to make way for that person sometimes. I think it's a whole sort of chain of things that could happen when we get to the crowding point. It is. That 9%, what if it's enough to take the edge off the rush hour period? I'm curious, if any of you, my listeners, were impacted by this, maybe you are, you want a part of the trouble, but you happen to travel during the recent shot on the northeast line in Sun Kang Punggol LRT where there were free off-peat morning rides between Punggol cost and Kovun, specifically before 7.30 AM, or between 9.00 AM and 9.45 AM, tell me what the ride was like for you. And if you were still traveling at Pete Hour, was it, did it feel different to you, the fact that we got at least 9% of people to move out to those times as well? One of my listeners was WhatsAppping across and saying, "You know what, I would definitely go for it if it was free with everything increasing and cost. Why not enjoy this free travel furthermore less crowded?" I'm a firm believer in actually, and I do this with my traffic updates as well. The peak period, it's like a living organism, not peak travel is like a living organism. Sometimes if you're just ahead of it by a little bit or behind it a little bit, it is faster. Yeah, definitely. I can not, I can empathize with that. That's basically the point that we are having this travel for is not to get everybody to move. It's just to get a little bit of people moving a little bit earlier or getting to work a bit later. And the data shows that a little bit is enough? Yes, well because if you a peak, imagine the trains are, if it's like really jam-packed, you can't even squeeze in. And then you take a few people like five or ten out per carriage, that actually makes a difference in terms of how you feel about being on the train and so on. And in Singapore was at the end of the day too, it made me sweaty and that's another bit of a topic. But that certainly helps. But there's a whole ecology of things that need to work together here. Obviously a free off-peat right is a wonderful carrot and an incentive which I think many people would love to avail themselves of if this was a standard policy. I think more likely we'll see something along the lines of discounted pricing or something like that. But thencially, I'm again, I'm not saying anything, this is just my assumption. But I think so many other things have to work in the ecology of this. Your employer has to be on board with making sure that they're okay with you leaving well early because you came to work early, because you came earlier. Your kid who's starting school at 730, you may not be able to drop them off because you're going at a different time or maybe it might work as well. There are so many other things that are kind of fixed like for most people in Singapore it's the school start time and your workplace. Your boss cannot, we need to make sure that the bosses do not look at you and judge you differently if you left one hour earlier because you arrived one hour earlier. That's a very good point, but at the same time, this is what I think that if people are really stretched in the budget, this is a way for them to lighten a little bit of the expenses. So even if they spend a bit more time at work, you know, it doesn't mean they have to do well. They can do a little bit of chit-chatting and so on. But at the end of the day, they still stay. I mean, so that's the other angle as well. I mean, even if the bosses, you know, don't give any allowance. save a little bit and then they enjoy a more comfortable ride. Maybe they got a seat on the train. Which is unheard of at Russia or sometimes unless you make a B-line for it or you get on it one of the earlier stations, right? One of my listeners walks out this across. I did not know this particular acronym but this person said free rides. Of course I'll go early GMIT and then I ask the person what's GMIT and then they said give me I think. I'm like, oh okay, I got it. I just know that that was an acronym. What do you think? Can we learn from cities like Melbourne, London, Seoul, they have used free rides or off-peak incentives to reduce P.I. congestion. Has it been successful for those cosmopolitan centrals and could we soon see something like that here you think in our public transport landscape? Yeah, that's a very good question. I think in both, actually this is not the first time in the world where we've tried this. Like decades ago in the US and then in all the other places that you mentioned Daniel, they have trialed and they've been successors in the way that mirrors what we are having in Singapore. So it's not like saying what is the first and the only one, but there are also other particular factors that I have played. For example, in Melbourne as you mentioned in Melbourne and maybe in Seoul a little bit. I think in Melbourne more, maybe because the people are in general driving a bit more, they have the more likely to have their own vehicles, but when you get to the CBD kind of the central part of Melbourne, that's where things get really busy. And if you imagine you're coming into a city, you make a few stops. You kind of have to a part your vehicle and then we've a vehicle and then look for another parking again. So it's actually time wasted. So you can just hop on and have a reliable and free transit that gives people more incentive to go to Melbourne, just park in one place and then do your thing. And it also benefits the rest of the shops and offices and so on in the area because suddenly they are so much more accessible now than before. So it actually benefits businesses and so on in a way that actually should help get the city a little bit more business back. So that is a slightly different. It's kind of like Archit Rowan and maybe a little bit of CBD kind of feel here. It's not exactly where it is. That could benefit from less traffic, honestly, the roads of it. Yeah, I mean, but then here we have the Northeast line and so on. So it's more of the commuters adjusting not just to the CBD necessarily, but yes, there are slightly different flavors and factors in its different cities. But the idea is that yeah, all we need is to move people in the peak hour a little, a few of them off either earlier or late and then everybody kind of benefits. Again, that's the public transport data that we have in the info showing from around the world, just a few people. We're not saying like, do you remember when you were young? And I don't know if you all had the same experience as me, but you had afternoon shift and morning shift for school. Then everybody was split into two worlds, right? There was morning people that went for morning school and then next year you were afternoon school. There felt like there were just 50% of the population living in different time zones. No, this is just like, you know, that 8, 9, 10% of people who would go a little bit earlier or a little bit later, you see, one of my listeners wants to have to cross and say, no, I would not do this because if I ended up going to work earlier by one hour, I would just end up working more by one hour. It's not worth the savings if I consider okay, I think they divided by the paid by one hour and then compared it to the MRT ride that they saving. Yes, but let's bear in mind that the scheme wasn't just about earlier. It also was offering free rides between Pongal Coast and Coven before 7.30 AM, the earlier slot and between 9.00 AM and 9.45 AM, which is after the P-hour crunch. So it's not necessarily about going earlier, but yeah, we would have to have like a flexi-work arrangement or a different structure to the work situation and that's something that can be done again if it's just 8 to 9.10% of people. That could be interesting, but free rides. Beyond free rides, prof, what else do you think needs to happen so that everybody's not driving out at the exact same time? One thing that I despise about my building that I live in, it's so tall that during peak hour when everybody's going out to work, it takes me about five minutes to get from my floor to the first floor. I'm not kidding, like if it's that 8 o'clock, I will reach downstairs by 8 or 5, because all the lifts will be taken. That means everybody's just by nature, everybody's just coming out at the same time. It's also a mindset shift, is it? Yeah, so it sounds like Daniel, your building needs an ERP for your own. You're trying to lift the lifts or not. But at the same time, I think it also depends on which floor you're on because walking down actually is not that strenuous, and it's a very good exercise, every smartphone. You can maybe, you can actually, that means that you probably get into an empty elevator when there's one. If you're tall enough. I just avoid you. So I've become on the 8 to 9%. I refuse if I'm stepping out for breakfast or a run or I just make sure I'm not there when everybody's leaving. I'm just sort of amazed that there seems to be this herd mentality in a way that everybody leaves the door at 7.30 every leaves the door at 8 o'clock. My biggest tip has always been like, hey, just be a little, just be like five minutes off. Instead of walking out the door at 8 o'clock, walk out the.755 or at 8.05, you'd be surprised at how much things will change with just that five minutes actually. Yeah, I totally agree. So don't stick to the half hour on the dodge. Just, you know, 7.05, 7.25, you know, on 7.23, you know, that helps. It does. I think so. And what else do you think has to happen besides offering of subsidies or incentives in terms of cost? I think people ought to be on more open-minded. For example, you mentioned the bosses, but I think also the employees, maybe they can take a little bit longer lunch, you know, maybe there's something that maybe they can do at the work computer, but actually it's not really related, you know, to work for the first hour that they manage to get there early. No, if you go early, you can have first and actually have a full meal for breakfast for once, instead of skipping it. Well, I mean, for those who go and buy breakfast, but if you're kind of saving that little bit of, you know, transport ride, maybe you also bring your breakfast. I still brought it in coffee. It's still protein and high protein. But yeah, you're right. I mean, okay, we have to figure out what to do with the extra time. Either the early level of the leader. What about the school thing? The school thing is hot. I think actually the schools, especially now, I think, I don't think there are many schools with the two ships anymore. I think it's gone. The problem now is that schools are not having enough students, so that some have to be merged together. So I think the problem is the other way around. And if we are in that sense, I think kids or the students don't, you know, should not have to get up so early. Because one of the reasons why we started classes so early is that we used to have these afternoon shifts and so on. But now that we don't, then I think we should actually consider, you know, having a little bit of a later start. The only thing is some parents like to drop their kids off before going back to work. And that contributes to that. Then shower peak. Yeah. And then that means that they don't want to have to drop their kids too late, so that they're late for work. But it also means immensely long lines of vehicles in potentially two-lane, three-lane roads in H2P states. Exactly. And but even if let's say schools require a later start, I think parents can still drop their students off a little bit early so they get back to work on time. So I think just giving that extra flexibility helps with the children, because a lot of times, sometimes when I have my morning classes, for example, sometimes I find my students kind of thoseing off early as well. So when you had to turn up and school at 730 as a child, Professor Farn, what time did you wake up to remember? Mine was 530. I think it may be a little bit late for me, but it depends on which school and then do you have the bus, the bands and so on. It was a very odd world that I was living in at 530 in the morning. So I start taking public transport to school from primary three. So maybe that's my other tip to us and other people. Let your kids go on their own. And it was fun because everybody I knew would take the bus or the train and we would meet up on the buses and meet people from other schools on the buses because that time it was just us going to school. So the public buses felt like like school buses anyway. But yeah, so it was it was it my god, you're absolutely right. Like, do we need to start school later? They'll be my next lot better. How about that? But also remember in your time, there are fewer MRT stations. So now actually there are fewer reasons not to let the students go to school on on the public transport. So that's another thing. I sound school. There could be like carriages for just kids. You know how like in Japan, there's carriages for just women. Maybe there needs to be a student only carriage or something like that. A car within the train. It's possible depending on which line and which stations. Particularly during the period like PSL East. So everybody can study on the train. No, so we can make sure they get to their exam hall on time. Okay, so we won't miss that one carriage. Public transport has a role to play. It does. This is fascinating. We're going to leave it there. But it's so interesting to see that the more we talked about, Professor Fandei were other things that came into this ecology. It's not just about the cost. Another listener, what's happening in I.M. I don't think that it'll ever be free, but I don't want it to surge. Okay, I get your point, which is we now live in this world of search pricing, right? Doing peak hours prices increase. So I get your point. You don't think it'll be free, but you don't want the opposite to happen either where in peak period becomes more expensive to travel. Good point. Thanks for waiting and everybody on talkback. (upbeat music)