Taking Back Capitalism ft. B. Pagels Minor of DVRGNT Ventures | EYB

You're listening to the Elevate Your Brand Podcast, where we talk to some of the smartest entrepreneurs and fastest growing brands in the market today. I'm your host, Laurel Mintz, a reformed corporate emanated attorney who founded award-winning LA-based marketing agency Elevate My Brand. We've elevated some of the world's biggest brands from Facebook, Paw Patrol, and Verizon to innovative startups you haven't even heard of. Yet, are you ready to elevate your brand? Keep listening. (upbeat music) - Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Elevate Your Brand. I, of course, am your host, Laurel Mintz, and I am joined today by my bestie, Bee Pagels Minor, who is the founder and GP of Divergent Ventures. Bee, thank you for joining us today. - Hello, how are you? - I am well, other than I feel like I need to apologize for not having you on sooner. I couldn't believe it when I was, we were talking the other night when you were hanging out here and I was like, "Wait a minute, how was it that you've not been on the podcast before?" I feel like a terrible friend. - Well, it's okay because at the same time, I feel like we spend so much time together just feels like we've done everything together. - It's very, very true. Well, for those who are unfamiliar with Divergent, give us the background. - Yes, the Divergent Ventures is quite simply an answer to a question that I started asking my parents when I was a young child in Mississippi. Essentially, growing up in Mississippi, people had very few types of jobs. Like you worked for the government, you were a lawyer or a doctor, or you were some kind of blue collar worker that did backbreaking labor. And I always would watch TV shows and wonder why all those people had work that seemed so fulfilling and so exciting and really was like the most innovative stuff ever. And so as I grew up and became a technologist myself, became a product leader, I ended up working in some of the best companies in the world like Apple and Netflix into my surprise when I got there. I found out that a lot of those people were from small towns like me and what we all had to say. And this includes Tim Cook, who's originally from Alabama. And he was so excited to meet me when I met him at Apple because he's like, "There's not many of us, "southerners here." And I was like, "Actually, there really is a lot of us." And he's like, "Really?" And I was like, "Yeah, Tim, there's so many of us "who are here now." And what it came to me to really mean is that so many people have to leave their homes, have to leave some of the vibrant communities that are honestly the backbone of America, not only because they are the ones who create that culture and so many other types of industries in the United States, but they are 60% of the US GDP. And so the right inventors is a venture firm that only invests in the Middle America. So the southeast, the southwest, the Midwest, the Midwest because we know that they are the most talented, most economically diverse part of the United States. I mean, we would call those the flyover states, right, rudely, so, but I think it's a really important and impactful conversation to have because I was just having this conversation actually with an LP about how investors want to invest in the sexy stuff. And not the sexy stuff isn't always the stuff that provides the best returns. And I think that is your point to what's happening in more Middle America states is that there's so much grounds while happening in terms of really interesting technology, really interesting people growing big ideas that are overlooking because they're not LA, New York, San Francisco, Miami, whatever, you know? - Yeah, and that takes, it's such an important point to make, right? You know, there's so many people out there, like Himalaya, who has this really great investment thesis where they're looking for the singles doubles triple, so they can average out as a 2X return or a 3X return over the life of their fun. Because the reality is, is that a 2X fund is phenomenal, right, it's phenomenal. And I think that many people, they misconstrued these facts that because people are making these billion dollar investments, they are returning, you know, 2 or 3X, but they're not. - Right. - And that's why you and I are in this market looking at pre-seed and seed stage companies, those early stage companies, because we realized one, we can have a lot more influence and control, because these people that we're investing in, because they have so much closer to their problem, they are really thinking about solving problem, doing dollar problems in a way that no one else is thinking about it. And I was just home in Mississippi, Tennessee, visiting my family members, and a lot of my family now, especially the elders, they're all above age of 70, right? And so we're getting into this situation where we all have to start planning. And many of us left, right? We left our homes, because we had to start off our careers, and now we're trying to get back, because we want to take care of those folks, and it's shocking the lack of infrastructure, the lack of systems. And then when it comes through my portal, for is the person who's trying to figure out how to make healthcare more efficient with this new AI, technology with AI, or something like that. And it's just this idea that, you know, all of these issues are coming right around the corner, and we don't start focusing on them. We will not have the means to support our society, our family members, our communities, as we grow older. - Completely agree with that. I mean, it's a whole category of age tech that I think, well, first of all, I hate the name, just like I hate the word Femta. I hate the categorization of it in such a way. But I think we have such a growing ageing population to your point, we got to figure shit out. Otherwise, we're going to be in real trouble. So I love that you're focusing on that. The other thing we obviously have to talk about is that you are the first person, the first trans person to ever launch a venture fund, which I think, the first black trans person to ever launch a venture fund, which I think bears accolades, even though I know that you consider yourself an activist in life. This is not your focus in terms of being an activist in the venture fund, but can you explain a little bit more about that world that you, that you exist in? - Yeah, actually, it is so great because we recently, actually, Laurel, my both, and it all raised, has been able to independently confirm, as far as we know, I'm the first openly trans VC lead anywhere in the world, right? - I'm proud of you, B. - I'm proud to be on the journey with you, truly. - And you've been an amazing ally on this journey. But it's like so interesting to me because I do struggle with it, right? Because I think just growing up as a black person in America eventually, you just want someone to say, like this is a great person, right? There's the same thing when it comes here as well. But I also know that there's power and visibility, and I know that, you know, for me, you know, it's actually so interesting because I tell you this all the time because I always jokingly say, I might actually much more conservative than those people think because my life-- - Can you say that? - Yeah, 'cause my life is so loud, right? Because just living in my life feels like an actual act of like rebellion, right? And so that's, I think, people misconstrue that. But like, when I was coming up, it didn't even occur to me, right? That I was different in a good way, right? It was just like, well, even though I'm different, I'm just gonna accommodate all these things. And it wasn't until I actually got out into the world and I started to see that a woman could love a woman, right? That, you know, black folks could hang out with white folks and Asian folks and, you know, all this other type of stuff. And so I started seeing all those things. I had a very narrow view of what life could be. And so because of that, that's one of the reasons that I do live my life out so loud. And I let myself be a part of those conversations, even when it's uncomfortable, because I know that there's a kid out there who needs to see the someone like me exist. And they need to see that I'm very happy, you know, I'm married, I have this beautiful kid, I have all of these like cool friends. I could do things that are just like tremendously crazy. And I knew that even for that kid from this Mississippi, right? You know, when I go home, you know, still to this day, my cousins are like, "Oh my gosh, it's just so crazy, "me that you live in LA." And I'm just like, "It's crazy to be the kid. "It's crazy that I live in LA." And also LA is crazy. So you know, just one of those things where, you know, it's just trying to help people be as curious as I've learned to be because it's the get-in-changer in my life. - I think curiosity is exactly the right word. Curiosity and acceptance of things that are different than you, which is why our very unlikely odd friendship is so funny to everyone else. But it just makes the most sense to us. It's been such an incredible journey to like see the world through your eyes. And I'm sure you've seen the world through my eyes a little bit differently as well. It's just been quite a journey, which happens to be the name of your most adorable son who we absolutely adore. And can I say that I'm an auntie now? Am I allowed to say that? - Yeah, yeah, we gave you TT privileges. (laughing) I love it, I love it. Well, we're gonna take a really quick break and we come back and wanna talk about the wealth salon. So this is a really impactful movement that you and I are working together to try and create. So let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Hello listeners, are you ready to revolutionize the way you think about investments in financial markets? Do you want better returns unless risk? 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You were sharing a little bit about your background and how you got to launching the Venture Fund and what you're currently focused on, but I think one of the things that you're most passionate about right now are the wealth salons that we're about to launch. We launched your first one this past quarter and had a recent huge successful Forbes article come out about it. Share with us your vision for what these wealth salons are going to be. Yeah, you know, when I really started focusing on fundraising for my Venture Fund recently, one of the things that I kept coming across is that as I started to meet hang out with some of both my friends and people I was just meeting, I would ask them like, hey, you know, it sounds like you really like the fund. Do you want to invest? And to me, the number that I mentioned to invest was like a very reasonable number. I mean, Laura, you and I know as people who have been investors for a long time now, like we have a sense of like, you know, hey, drive this type of car. You have this type of house. I believe they call that profiling B, but yes, wealth, profiling. Yeah, because like, you know, you presumably, if you made six figures for like 20 years, you should have X amount of wealth. Like it's just logical, right? But what I was hearing was it's like they didn't like across the board, you know, and started with me really focusing on a lot of like, like, actresses and athletes because I had many connections in those communities. And then the more, I started learning about why they didn't have the wealth, the more pissed off I got. Like I was just so angry. I was just like, how is it that all of you have had long amazing careers? You have been in my life since I was a child and you do not have the amount of wealth that you should have to ensure that as a strike at the time there was a strike going on, as a strike is going on, that you have what you need, that you don't have to sell your house. And Laurel can tell anyone when I get feisty about something I have to go fix it. And so, you know, I was talking to you, Gary, William, and Wade, and she really helped really make it very clear to me what the biggest issue was. And she was like, be, I'm married to Duane. And he gets offered deals all the time. Like literally he just walks into a room and people offering him opportunities to make investments. And they don't say a single thing to me. And that's been happening to me my entire life. And I said, okay, bet. So you need to have access to people who have access to the deals. And then you need to have access to the bankers to make sure you have the right bank accounts. You need to have access to the right, you know, tax people. So you do tech. And so this became very clear to me that it was a resource problem. And so I started doing it individually so for people, they were like, hey, here's my attorney, here's like whatever. But then I was like, well, this isn't going to work because like then I was like, I'm not sure enough people as fast as I need to meet them so I can stop being pissed off. And so then that's where the salon came from. It was just, you know, if I can just convince, you know, the folks like friends, as we've been talking with large workers like, you know, Chase and UBS and Deloitte, no, these other people saying, you know, you have, but you want these people to your customer, right? Help us, you know, sponsor us to have these intimate conversations where we talk about money, where we talk about what we want to do. You know, a great example is our first salon, you know, gap came over and she spoke because she's, by the way, one of the best humans in the whole world. She is 100% committed to helping people, right? And it's especially like genuine, authentic person. Yeah. She realized that she's freaking hilarious. And also she always looks good. Like my wife, I know you told me you didn't need to do any airbrush or going anywhere pictures. I was like, that's I'm care. No, and I want to make sure we keep that in whatever edited episode. We did not have to do any photoshopping to her photos. And she just appeared that way. It was crazy. But, you know, and then we brought, you know, 17 other people into the room. And so we talked a little bit about her journey. And it helped people then start to talk about, well, if this happens to, like, it's not that crazy that I feel this way. Right. And so then after that conversation, all those people now, they have what's that group they're communicating, they're talking about deals together. And now we're we're going to launch, you know, the other two verticals. And so that's where you, Laurel, have already, you know, offered to help us with our women's vertical. And then Patrick Driscoll is going to help us with our LGBTQ+ vertical and of course, as we continue to take on partners because what I, what I know is for fact is, as someone who's intersectional, you know, each community needs bespoke content that speaks to the issues that they face. You know, when we were at all raised recently, my feedback to the all raised team was, hey, so many people are not comfortable taking, you know, credit for what they've done. Right. How many people come, I was like, wait, did you like you like a rocket scientist? Oh, she's like, oh, yeah, I mean, I guess I'm like, go to your rocket scientist. Like, what is going on? And so, you know, so for women's programming, we need to think about that. You know, the fact that women have been told historically not to take so much space and so helping that, you know, so that's a different. And for the LGBTQ+ programming, there's so much nuance within the LGBTQ+ community. And so it's so important for us that we want to make sure all of this content, all these resources will always be free and that we make content that speaks to the people that we're talking to because the only way this is going to work on term is if we start to feel comfortable about something that is terrifying because money has become the big boogie man in the corner and you get told that you're wrong for wanting it or not even having a seat at the table. Right. Exactly. That's the bigger issue. Yeah. And I call it, you know, you know, I think it's a way to kind of take capitalism, you know, uh, President Obama always says about government that government is only as good as those who participated in it. Right. And so when you don't go vote, when you don't go run for office, then you get what you get. And I feel the same way about capitalism. And I think it's time for us to take that capitalism from the people who have, you know, bullied us with it and instead use it to, you know, create wealth within our communities so that we can invest in our communities so that we can invest in our companies so that we can invest in our fund managers who have the same principles we did. And I think it just goes back to a historical trend that's happened in, you know, you know, United in the United States over time, right. It used to be the philanthropist for all of the world's richest people, right. They were the ones who built the libraries. They built the schools. They're the reason that the universities are the names of the universities, right. And I think I want to get it back to that, right. Because I ultimately believe that we as individuals can create the society that we want. We just have to lean in to do it. I think we need to make that hashtag hashtag take take back capital or take back capitalism. I think that's really fun and interesting. A couple other points I want to just point out one, I have found the same experience that you have had me in my journey down this, you know, fundraising experience is that the conversation women and specifically women of color are so uncomfortable having these conversations about money. They don't even know what questions they ask. They don't know how to start the dialogue. And, and that has been my great joy in this experience, is like being that safe space. But to your point, it has to be done at scale, right. This is a systemic issue that is not going away anytime soon. So we can't just do it on a one to one. It has to be done at scale. And that's really what the well salons are going to do. So I, you're such a great catalyst for me. I'm really excited to be honest with you. How can people get involved? Like let's talk about how the well salons are going to impact people or where to stay tuned for more information. Yeah. So first and foremost, so we have a large website is called the well salons of www.thewellsalons.com. Go there, sign up for our newsletter. And so our newsletter we're going to start posting about the events right now. We're doing 2024 planning. It looks like we're planning on doing at least one event per quarter per vertical. So for instance, for the black well salons, we were a little bit further along because we'd already started. So in February, we plan on doing DC. And for June 10th, Atlanta in August, Martha's Vineyard. And in November, my hometown, Memphis, Tennessee, because, you know, if I can't do right by my hometown, what the heck am I doing this for anyway? But those are examples. And so again, because I invest in Middle America, we're going to do things on the coast, of course. But we're really going to try to do a lot of work in those in-between places. So for instance, Phoenix is a great place that I have an idea about or Denver, Dallas, Miami. Because part of this is also accessing and helping the people who are in Middle America understand the diversity of opportunity they have. Because one of the things that I do, Laurel and I think you know this, is that because I'm investing in Middle America, I'm focusing a lot on trying to get LPs. And LPs are limited partners for investors in our funds from the Middle America. And so what you end up running into in that case are people are saying, well, I only do real estate. I only do the stock market. And I'm just like, even if you don't do VC, like I just need to tell you about all these other ways that you can invest your money. Because that's just like being practical and being logical. So part of this mission of doing all this work is also helping people be honest. the fact that there's folks because of their cultural identity or because of their ethnicity or something like that who run into or have concerns. It's also this very simplistic fact that there's just completely vast pieces of knowledge that people don't know because they don't have people who work in the industry in their community. And so so much of this is just education. Couldn't agree more. I mean, I know that this is both of our fun one and that we have both also been feeling like we're getting such an amazing education in this experience and process ourselves. But it's about passing along that wealth of knowledge again to make sure that this is really an access class, not just an asset class. And when someone told me that I can't remember where I've heard that for the first time, but I was like, "Huh, that's exactly what it is." It really is about access and we keep saying that word, not just an asset class and that's really what the wealth salons are going to bring to the world. So thank you B for birthing that. Yeah, and it also goes next to the idea of the difference between equality and equity. Like I know whatever I talk about equality anymore, right? Because equality is not enough. It's about equity. Like you know, you need to. It's about making sure the door is open and then holding their person's hand, you know, as they go through the door and then introducing them to the person at the front desk so that they don't get intimidated and run out, right? And so it's that level of care that we really want to put it out there in the world because that's what every human deserves, honestly. And that's how you get to a healing, right? Absolutely. We're going to take one more break. We'll be right back. Enjoying the episode. I certainly hope so. But we have no way to know unless you tell us. After this episode, please leave us a review on your podcast, App of Choice, and let us know what you love and what you want to hear next. This podcast is all about you. And how else are we going to elevate your brand unless you talk to us? All right. Thanks for seeing with us chatting with you. Who's the founder and GP of Divergent Ventures. You kind of like went really quickly over your background in history, but you have such a deep tech product background. Can you share this a little bit more about that and then the moment that you decided to launch Divergent? Yeah. So I am an accidental product leader. This is like what I like to say. So I grew up wanting to be Claire Huxstable. And so I did the whole half of like going to the fantasy schools and getting a history of political science degree and then getting MBA and MIS, they go to law school and when I figured out I hate law, which a lot of people do. So it's a whole thing. And so what I did is then I applied all those thought provoking, you know, questions, the analytical skills that I treat that I developed doing all of that and applied it to product. So I actually went to a job fair one day and the one guy at the whole job fair. So you know, normally job fairs, especially in Chicago where I was, is like all women who were like age early years who were there, which by the way, that's so annoying still to his day. And this one guy was there and I was like, why aren't you here? Like I literally went up to him and say why aren't you? And he said, well, I'm trying to hire some people for my tech company, but none of these people even know like what technology is and I was like, well, I do. And I'm looking for to do something because I need to find a career now basically is what I told him. And he hired me on the spot. He didn't have any of them in his shirt. And I wasn't really sure that he actually had a company. But I figured I heard to show up, you know, and he did, I worked with that company for five years to start off as customer service rep and then I became like the manager of the customer service team and then there ate his relation marriage and then their first product leader. And then I've just been a product leader since then and you know, for me. And actually you could say, I mean, because you know, so Laurel says, been Mike and I like, we'll sit there and we'll debate whether it's going to actually use an app to be product. And I'm like, yeah, because it's actually in a better place now because you can tell they did the product. Yes, that's the type of dorks that we are. But yeah, I feel like product like no product people is just in your blood. Like every time I see something or something happens, like there's a problem with our Zoom for our LPA AMAs recently and I was like, Laurel, I was like, I'm so about the product issue. Yeah, you were so. I was like, they literally, I changed the date and it literally destroyed the whole series. That does not make any sense once away. So anyway, but that is just like that. And so you know, I actually started off and actually my career into Ventures partially because of how difficult it was to do good product work actually. So when I started off, you know, I started off, you know, at these like very like startup type companies that were kind of disorganized, which is kind of how it always was. And so what would end up happening is that I didn't have an opportunity to get promoted. So I would always have to take these lateral moves to, you know, go to my next role. And each time I would go into a new role, it was a sex scene problems like miscommunication or like the executive team doesn't really understand products or the product leaders hate the engineering leaders and all this stuff. And so I started speaking, right? I started speaking on how to make like successful teams, how to like communicate all other type of stuff in Chicago. And so then that gave me more speaking opportunities, but it didn't give me promotions. And so what I realized is, is that very quickly I need to make as much money as possible because I could not continue to work in large corporations. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not do it because I didn't understand why wasn't going to promote it. And so then I got recruited after speaking at Lesbians who tech in 2018 to Apple. And so I went to Apple and owned all their App Store Connect. So App Store Connect is like the front door to the App Store. So every developer has to submit their app through that tool in order to actually be on the App Store. And so it's the best work of my career right because I was working with, you know, EA and, you know, the largest, you know, developers in the world trying to build great products for them. So as some of them the most fun I've ever had. And then from there I went to Netflix and started off owning all their membership and finance data products. And so a lot of my career has been building large, large database analytical products, right? So being able to help my company or my client be able to more quickly come to decisions. So for Netflix it was trying to figure out, for instance, how much is a member actually work? You know, how much should we be investing in content to figure out if we're going to deliver the amount of value back to a member to ensure that we're creating the right margin, for instance, right? You know, or trying to figure out which content actually works more effectively. So like the ROI on this special is different than this ROI and on this other special. And then at the end of my career in Netflix actually moved over to Netflix Gaming and had the privilege to help build all the systems that then launched Netflix Gaming. Then I had a baby. Yes. And then after having the baby there are two things. So one, I had to hit my number to be debt free. And two, I really knew I couldn't go back to corporate. Like it's not just about working nine to five. It was about the fact that it's so difficult to do good work. And it really comes down to this idea that, you know, so much of, you know, the last 10, 15 years of startups is to just show growth, right? You don't have to deliver value growth at all costs. Exactly. And it just, it kills you, right? If you really care about customers and trying to deliver the right things to customers, it kills you to do that type of work. And so, you know, started off consulting, right? I was consulting with a few companies and doing a lot about, you know, product product processes and practices and things like that. And what was great is that more people listen to me, but then I realized if I could actually add a check to that, I could actually like change how products are. And that was very interesting. So, you know, to a certain extent, part of being in VC now is trying to just make product management back to what it was, which is delivering amazing value to customers, while also delivering value to the business. And I think you can do that, you know, if you're actually building good products. And so that's how that's kind of a, my 15 years of tech and product experience. And now my transition into being a VC. I didn't know that first job experience, that's such a great story, B. Thank you for sharing that with us. Basically, don't be. Actually, I also figured out then, because like I'd go to school at some very fancy school side, new rich people didn't always look rich. But then I found out with him that they might actually have holes in their clothes all the time. And he was so wealthy. But then he would wear suit, like he would actually wear suit when he'd go to a conference and I'd be like, it's so crazy to me that you can look like this, but you choose to look like that every day. Well, it's the whole unhoused versus hipster here in LA. And it's like the vibe that people have to like, hmm, I'm not quite sure which one. That's why you have to be nice to everyone. That's why you should be nice to everyone. Well, we are almost out of time. In the last few minutes, we always like to pivot the conversation and have a more human chat about who you are as a person. And so this is what we call our quick fire. So this is just quick top of mine answers. Are you ready? And I think I know because I know you so well. I think I know the most the answers to these. But let's see if you can share with our audience. The first question is, what is the one thing that you could not have lived without during the pandemic? And you can't say your own products or services. Oh, I couldn't have lived without all Apple TV. Fair, absolutely fair. Go to cocktail of choice after a long hard day. I definitely know this one. Oh, makers manhand. And just for those listening, B has supervised me making this probably two dozen times at this point. I finally got it right I think right? Yes. Yes. Next question is if you could wave a magic wand and have anything happen for divergent what would that look like? Oh wow. I mean it's too easy to just say that we like close our whole fun. Right. I think you know not so we close our fun and we return three X. Oh I love that. I love the addition of the return to your investors. That's a great response. And then the last question is what is your favorite word and why? And this could be a word that's have real meaning to you over time or a word that just pops it into your head for the purpose of this conversation. Oh man my favorite word. I feel like if you hadn't asked me this I would have had a word just off the top. It's a stumper. It always is a stumper. Or just what's popping into your head for today? I can't think of anything because now that I need to think of a word I can't think of a word. I'm tangential. I like the word tangential because I wouldn't I think I didn't know what it was for like a long time like when I was a kid. I still always use it wrong. I just like telling it. It's another actually know what it means. I actually like it more. All right. Well if you could wrap us up today with how people can get in touch with you if they want to chat further about divergent or the wealth of the ones. Okay great. So I'm a little bit more basic than most people would expect. So I like to make my name my handles everywhere. So B-pagels minor is my handle only in X, Instagram, TikTok, all that good stuff. Divergent Ventures is divergent without the vowels. Thank my wife Alyssa for that. She's a marketing essence. She said no vowels. So it's DVRGNT Ventures.com. If you are a founder there is a form there. Feel free to fill out that form. Do not email us. Please fill out the form. If you're investor you can also submit a contact us form there. And then for the wealth of the lawns we are the wealth of the lawns everywhere as well. So divergent mentors without the vowels, the wealth of the lawns and B-pagels fighter. You can find me sign up for our newsletters. We have so much cool stuff coming in 2024. Most importantly I could probably get you drunk in many cities and then call us up to go to wealth. Because that's what Laurel and I usually do. Don't give away the secrets. If you could wrap us up with any final words of wisdom for someone who maybe hasn't really thought about investing or someone who's singing about investing but hasn't taken that next step yet, let's give some empowering final words of wisdom. Yeah, you know I think the first thing I would say to you anyone. So there's many different types of investing. There's obviously the investing that you do, the stock market, there's investing in VC, there's other investing in real estate, etc. And I just want to say that when I did my very first investment. So now I've done dozens and dozens and dozens of investments. My very first investment was like a hundred bucks and it was terrifying, right? And I like I had way more than a hundred bucks but it was still terrifying. And so what I would say is don't intimidate yourself by saying if I can't give, you know, if I can't make my investment huge, it's not worth it. Start off with something small so that you feel comfortable so you can kind of see what it looks like and then move up. Because gambling is never a good idea but thoughtful, hypothesis driven, investing so you can see what happens is always good. I love that and I love you B and so glad that you're finding on the podcast. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Yes, thank you so much and then obviously we need to get caught up. Done and done. For those of you tuning in, thank you so much for listening to us today and stay tuned for more from Elevate Your Brand coming up next.