"Take the Keys Away": Bill Belichick, His Exiled Consigliere and a "Sabotaging" at Carolina

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre and today we're going to find out what this sound is. You should have gotten rid of this guy already. You know, again, what are you getting for $1.5 million a year, a buddy? Right after this. Bruce, I just had to close the window for a Google search in which I had to ask, is a certain Instagram account, an actual woman or an AI-generated woman, which I think we might touch on in the saga of Mike Lombardium, Bill Belichick, and the University of North Carolina, but Bruce Feldman, thank you for doing this. Man, it's good to have you on the show. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. I want to set the sort of backdrop here for people. When did you start covering college football, Bruce? A long time ago, I would say I got to ESPN in the summer of 1994. I probably really started in like 1996. Going to the math here. So that's three decades of one of the weirdest sports on Earth. It sounds like. And it gets weirder every year, so. Is there a story in your three decades plus of experience that you'd compare this particular saga to? Is there any sort of cop for what it is that we've been both reporting on now? You know, there's been nuttier stories. But there have been nuttier stories that involve the greatest coach in pro football history, though. That's the really weird part. In my head, as we're talking about this, I just see that murder she wrote, old typewriter, NA, the curb, music should be playing at the same time. It's really bizarre. I'm going to try and sort of corral us by beginning with an acknowledgement that Mike Lombardi, the character we will get to, is a typewriter, aficionado, and collector. And the whole Angela Lanzberry device is something that he apparently bought and has posted about on Instagram. And I don't even know if you knew that part. Bruce, or if that was just a reference out of thin air. It's actually was a reference out of thin air. I tried to think of like, what do you see that kind of old-style, you know, like from the 1920s typewriter? It's perfect, though. It's actually perfect in the context of this. And the thing about it, the sort of like TV drama, soap opera, sort of murder mystery aspect of this. Part of the reason why it's also fascinating and why I continue to cover it is that, whether or not you know anything about college football, if you're just interested in character study, it is hard to buy a cast of characters who are like this extreme in their own special ways. And of course, Bill Balochek, now age 74, the aforementioned for my money, greatest football coach of all time, once the paragon of discipline and privacy and no distractions. He is the Logan Roy character at the center of this to mix all of the illusions. There's Jordan Hudson, of course, who we have covered extensively, too much arguably on this show. That's Bill's girlfriend slash manager, a slash business partner, now age 25. She has, among other things, threatened to sue me for presumably one must imagine my reporting has not happened yet. But the character, the subject that brings us together Bruce, who reentered the news cycle two weeks ago, is Michael Lombardi. We're back with breaking news on Get Up this morning. I think this is interesting. North Carolina football general manager Michael Lombardi, who's been a top aide to coach Bill Balochek there and many other places, has been placed on paid administrative leave, effective immediately. No other details have been disclosed. We've investigated him at length on this show with our friend The Great Day Fleming. But you have a line in your recent column for the athletic that I thought really summarizes the Mike Lombardi experience. Arrogance plus incompetence, a devastating combination to, I don't know if you say Bill Balochek's legacy, because that's the NFL. He's the greatest coach. He has all the Super Bowl rings. This is a different animal in college football, right? We saw this with Urban Meyer, Urban Meyer, when three national titles in college football. He went up to the NFL. It was a disaster. Now what's a little different here, though, is it almost feels like, as I've watched this play out, and talk to people around there, like Lombardi is sabotaging this. How could we screw this up worse? The guy who Bill Balochek took over for at North Carolina, Mac Brown, really good college coach. We maybe stayed a little too long, but he wanted a national title of Texas. They fired him, you know, after like seven years in his second term in North Carolina. They were never this bad. And what I kind of get back to a little bit is there was a year, probably like 12, 15 years ago, at North Carolina, Larry Fedora, a coach there, who kind of a journeyman coach. But it had some good seasons, even at North Carolina. But there was a year when they won two games, which obviously worse than going four and eight, which is what they were last year. But they're the laughing stock of college football right now. For a lot of what you said, but then it's Lombardi. And what Lombardi really cuts at is the roster and what you get to put on the field and why that's so critical. And the arrogant piece of it is coming in thinking he knew better than all these people who've worked in college football for a long time. I go back to this one line I had heard last year from somebody who'd worked there was like, him kind of lecturing somebody going, you don't know what it takes to play in the national football league. Even just saying that the national football league just sounds completely arrogant and self-indulgent, right? But the fact that he said it in that tone and in that context, that person may not know what it takes to play in the national football league. But that person knows way more about what it takes to be a good college football player. And that's the world you're in. And until you reconcile that, you're going to be a detriment to your boss, who is paying you $1.5 billion, which is way more than anybody else who's in that line of work. So it is just staggering thing to me that you could have somebody who's the highest paid and literally the worst at what they do in the entire field. But just to establish this for people who don't appreciate it. This guy is Bill Pellichek's hand-picked consiglieri, right, to use language that Lombardi likes to use himself. He's the highest pay GM in college football. And this led to another great line you had in your recent podcast, The Audible, for the athletic, because he said, "He should be getting his paycheck with a ski mask on." And hard to argue. Hard to argue, Bruce. I mean, we're at the point with this story where when Lombardi gets put on leave, the perceived hitting event for this podcast, my phone blows up. And there's just any number of theories. And that's to go back to the murder mystery part of it, right? Was this about recruiting violations? Was it about his sort of cold war behind the scenes? Maybe with Jordan Hudson, who had been banned by him according to people around the program. Was this related to him fundraising in Saudi Arabia last summer? But the reason it turned out to cut to the core of it is the best we can understand it is what? Why was Lombardi put on paid leave? He has told people close to him that he doesn't know. That doesn't mean he doesn't know. He's just telling people he doesn't know. And it's open up to a lot of things here, because some of the things we've looked at is when you're with the Patriots, or when you're in an NFL building, especially back when he was around, it was basically a very insulated setup. You're not around that many people. It's a football world. When you're in a college athletic program, especially one now with these recruiting departments that are much more well-staffed, there's a lot more people in personnel than there ever were before, especially in the last few years. Again, I'm not saying it's entirely focused on this, but of the things that I've talked about on an audible or things that I've written about for the athletic. I don't remember ever it beginning like a bat signal for all these people from the NFL, or people that I knew 10 years ago who were in the NFL to be like, "Hey, so what's your son about? Lombardi loved it. Man, that guy's this. Man, that guy's that." It was crazy how many people, and I'm not talking about eight or ten. I'm talking dozens and dozens. I was at big ten media days in Chicago. That's all people wanted to come up and talk to me about. It was like people I was going to talk to came over and started conversations about this. People in football, he is such a lightning rod and has had such a checkered history in a lot of places. Not just, by the way, not just inside the NFL. I work at Fox. He used to work at Fox for a little while. A lot of my co-workers came from NFL in that work. He was there for a little bit. Heck, from what I understand. Before me and you, he worked at the athletic. This is where, again, if you're trying to pin down like what's the reason, the best we can do right now for the paid leave stuff is there is the heading of HR complaint. That's sort of the best label that we got for the moment. We will add to that that North Carolina's General Counsel is overseeing the investigation into that. It'll be conducted by two lawyers from an outside law firm, plus a third outside lawyer who will be advising it. That's four lawyers for those keeping track at home on the Mike Lombardi matter. Speaking of all the people who've spoken about this of their own vulnerability. After seeing your reporting, this is where I want to mention yet another lawyer Bruce a lawyer by the name of Tom Mars And Tom Mars quote tweeted the podcast from above about the ski mask and other such things and he said on July 27th, 2026 quote in two minutes and 30 seconds at Bruce Feldman CFB incinerates you and CGM Michael Embardi without mercy worth a listen and There was a development Bruce by the end of that week Because what happened with Tom Mars Tom Mars is now representing Michael Embardi But when I heard that I was like, huh, that's interesting Full disclosure. I've known Tom Mars for a long time because he's a fan of the audible I know that because we talk about you know, we've talked about it a lot He's a really good lawyer. He has a lot of success especially with NCA cases. He has represented Jim Harbaugh. He has represented Trinidad Shameless He's represented a lot of people. He's not a lightweight in these fields, right? I think Tom is also if you follow him on social media is a pretty reasoned thinker So the fact that Michael Embardi hired Tom Mars You know is probably one of the smarter moves Michael Embardi has made in recent years and Tom Mars For the record, you replied to someone on Twitter who pointed out this F***ing insane series of events And Tom Mars said quote, "FYI after hours of conversations with Michael Embardi I have no reservations whatsoever about representing him in connection with the UNC matter Standing alone with nothing more, the opinions of commentators or a person's social media approval rating Is in a factor in deciding who I'll represent" End quote And to which I say sure all good your lawyer your job is representing clients Michael Embardi needed a lawyer. He's now your client And by the way, Mars now says that Lambardi quote, "Welcome's the opportunity to clear his name" I will say this Pablo though the column that I did And also the podcast the podcast went up Monday afternoon of that week And then the column I think went up the next day You know that was all about Michael Embardi is a horrible GM. If you're Bill Bellicic, he fired Freddy Kitchens who is not a great Offensive coordinator right after the season. He also fired a special teams coordinator Bill Bellicic, you know, again if he's just looking at it on face value, not relationships And affinity for a human being would have had to have looked at Lombarding a man this guy. He is crushing us, my program right And you know again after the season they did this pivot which was a really interesting move Of getting away from going all in in the portal which is almost what most programs do now especially programs We're trying to get out of the ditch and They went on basically all in on a high school recruiting which essentially is playing the long game You know dabbo Sweeney has been doing that now a lot of people feel like that's part of what is Got dabbo Sweeney away from the mountain top of college football where it's been right But if you look at all the people who have had done a really good turnaround most notably The guy in Bloomington, Indiana who won a national title in two years Kurt Signetti You know he was very active in his selection process of going into the portal So my thoughts on Lombardy as this investigation ramps up was you should have gotten rid of this guy already You know again, what are you getting for $1.5 million a year a buddy? What is really the value for this if you really want to North Carolina football to thrive and be Not just better than it was last year But better than it was when Mac Brown was there when they were like a seven or eight win team Well, one of the things you get according to my reporting is perhaps an investigation by the college sports commission Bruce in addition to all of this stuff and it's interesting right? I've been making calls about the CSC a bunch over the last week and to be clear about this They do not confirm whether an investigation is underway They do not comment either direction confirming or denying that stuff But what I've been told is that this investigation that's been opened is an additional matter involving Mike Lombardy and University of North Carolina In addition to the HR stuff and North Carolina has declined comment But it's just interesting Bruce we're living as you put it in this era of college sports and college football that's never been messier And this is how I got to learn about the CSC to begin with like I think a lot of people Maybe haven't even understood wait a minute. It's an entity that's there to regulate name image and likeness rules There are rules actually about image and likeness in the first place that are supposed to be enforced That's part of the story now - the part that I think Is less surprising to me is a university investigation about HR matters because there's been From our reporting there has been several Personnel staffers who have been forced out right and That kind of lines kind of lines up with okay you could you could hear Some grievances or people lawyering up or suing about that the CSC one to me As always felt a little murky and okay, where's this gonna go like because you just don't know What they are going to be getting their hands on and how did he run a foul? How did North Carolina perhaps perhaps run a foul of that? That part I you know, I'm curious about the one as it relates to the university investigation That one I think is going to be more top of mind because you feel like it would be more I don't say salacious, but that's kind of what you expect when somebody is forced out of a place On short notice Yeah, I mean the CSC for the people who have not done sort of like the the cliff notes on this yet I mean basically the house VNC double a settlement which is in 2025 Establishes that hey someone has to enforce these rules and yes, there are rules around name image and likeness around For instance like no show jobs are these real marketing deals. Did you do anything right like what's the rate that you were supposed to be paid for it? The way he got described to me though I was talking to someone with direct knowledge of how the CSC operates and they're basically saying it's kind of like you're playing two on two You know, let's say pick up basketball at the park and you agree to hire refs to call fouls And then at some point it's time for the ref to call fouls and where we are right now is the stage in that metaphor where the players The conferences in this case Who are funding who are running the CSC effectively have to decide are we actually going to have fouls called on us? Do we want that how are those whistles going to get blown and how are they going to be enforced in the end in North Carolina Perhaps might be the case study in what an alleged foul actually looks like and how it's enforced Pablo in this two on two basketball analogy are the players getting shanked because that's kind of what it feels like is Happening when it comes to the NIL world It is yeah, I don't want to say it's grimey or then what we had before when everything was under the table But what you're getting now is agents charging 20 and 30 percent To 18 year olds and there are a lot of it is new on the scene Agents, you know who before like oh, yeah, there's some certification to do this Oh, we're dealing sports. I'm reporting this whole parallel thing Of course about Kauai Leonard and the Clippers and Uncle Dennis Robertson and no show jobs I was doing this live episode at the Sloan conference about that and someone comes up to me from the audience who works in Agendaing let's say in college football and he goes to me goes You do realize that college football is full of Uncle Dennis's now Unlicensed representatives were demanding money for nothing allegedly if you use this context in college football Every player in your roster is a free agent every year and if it's up to the Uncle Dennis of the world They're going to be a free agent every month, you know, and that's That's one of the headaches of why a lot of coaches Head coaches assistant coaches just want to go to the NFL Because there is collective bargaining and there is some form of regulation may not be a perfect world But it's not a complete mess the calendars of mess There's about a thousand different things that relate to this that are really slimy These elements and again, I don't want to say it's bad. I think it's good that the players are getting compensated It's just a lot of the things around it because there's been Leadership and everybody's frustrated and now you're seeing politicians try to get into this and we know that their motives are not or never You know pure about it. It's always about something other than this, right? That's the cesspool that you're waiting into now I want to point out Bruce that When you reported on the culture of arrogance under balachek and lambardi The whole branding around this team has been professional Right Everything we do here is predicated on building a pro team. We are we consider ourselves the 33rd team Because everybody's involved with our program has had some form of aspect in pro football. It's the 33rd Team so we're dealing with a college sports Error in which yes, there is professionalization But the version of the pros that lambardi is bringing how do you even describe that from all the reporting you've done. What is professionalized about this team? The money that that he's getting. I was talking to somebody who works in personnel at another school and you know new people at North Carolina because there's this this personnel symposium that is big in college football now that started with startup by somebody at CAA about about 10 years ago but the second year the keynote speaker was Mike Lombardi and it's the first time I had seen him in person we know we know we know a lot of the same people but so Lombardi spoke and he was actually a pretty good speaker. He referenced a lot of the things from his book is called like football genius you know who calls himself a genius. grid iron genius. grid iron genius. cullin a master class in building teams and winning at the highest level to be specific. Yeah well I guess you can do you can say that but he's not winning at the next highest level he's he's he's he's absolutely bombing at the next highest level that we're seeing so maybe that'll be the follow-up book but anyway so I said to this guy you know one party was actually a pretty good speaker he goes he goes yeah I actually thought he was too but then you're kind of final realizing there's just a lot of BS that has attached to this and if you're kind of left your own devices so much you start to believe it all and I think that there's something to be said for the person who's constantly trying to push this out you would just think why was Belichick so attached to him you know like I you know I talked to somebody who who was at the Patriots for a while and he didn't have a great reason other things just like that's Bill's guy. I mean one of the stories that we reported in this episode we did with Dave Fleming was that yeah the legend of the grid iron genius involves these three Super Bowl rings and the last one the Patriots won Bruce is a remarkable story because Lamarity gets fired from the Patriots in June 2016 before training camp for the season even starts and the Patriots go on to win the Super Bowl in February of 2017 so this is seven months later and Lamarity gets a ring and so on that level you're like well maybe he just meant that much of the people the team the whole team behind the scenes and then you talk to the people around the Patriots and actually no the ring was purchased by Bill Belichick as like the friends and family version like the Balfour pendant version is how it was described to us it's not really that official team ring but that's Bill's guy that's the story of Michael Lamarity at every stop it seems through his trajectory of yeah his football career you know couldn't you make Michael Lamarity you know just have his name played on the door Bill's guy he's not the GM he gives you feedback but like this one particular role that he's in and obviously he's being paid you know compensated significantly well that's the one that's like man if you put him in some other job where he couldn't mess it up so bad I don't think they're four and eight they're probably a bowl team last year and the record for those who are unfamiliar you said four and eight one of them was a win against Richmond which is what we used to call a one double a school their wins other than that we're against Charlotte three and seven Stanford three and six Syracuse and yeah zero NFL draft picks for the 33rd NFL team and so from a peer just like what should a GM be doing perspective right so you've gotten the sense of like how other places do it well and how the job and fairness of general manager is a job that didn't exist in this way a couple years ago even and so what should you actually want a good GM to be doing here how do you explain that to people I think what good GMs do is they have their own personnel board it's a basically a wish list of these are the guys we hope go in the portal you rank them because honestly if you want this guy in Texas tech wants this guy you're probably gonna lose the bidding war and there's other schools you know if you're in North Carolina you're probably losing the bidding war especially if they've spent you know bills making ten that's way more than what they're paying $10 million that's way more than what they're paying the highest paid public employee in the state of North Carolina bill ballot check at 10 million a year yeah and he's the fourth best head football coach from North Carolina in the ACC alone but back to that question is you have to really identify the talent you think can can win in college football whether you want some guy who's six four with a big strong arm but if he's not accurate or if he can't move that's probably not going to be a great option for you right like they went after one of those guys who couldn't win at Purdue and went back to you know was was at in Chapel Hill for a few months and then Ryan Brown the quarterback ended up going back to Purdue right so they've missed on a lot of evaluations I think they've also didn't really understand the landscape of what they need you to do and so you know rather than just say all right let's learn from our mistakes we kind of punted on that and again to play the long game when your head coach is what you know mid-70 I can't I don't get it coming off a really bad year I know it's not like you know it doesn't make sense man no no it does not well just to add to the whole well we're pivoting to even younger people now Lombardi's Instagram account part of the top of GM is like I'm a personnel evaluator I'm also by definition needing to be more fluent in the internet in ways that are just foreign to a lot of these guys and I don't blame them but on Mike Lombardi's Instagram account as you're like doing the post-mortem of like what had he been doing what he'd been posting I had missed this but one of the posts he had shared the equivalent of retweeting on Instagram is a post from an account for what certainly appears to be an AI-generated woman and the caption I'll read this so you don't have to the caption is quote my date refused and all caps to eat my peach emoji all because he suddenly saw that dot dot dot but that same account by the way it's additionally filled with other posts with comments like quote how do black people know their ancestors were slaves when they don't know who their dad is question mark question mark and you're just like what what what the fuck are we even doing anymore like I get it if you're incompetent at the internet but at a certain point and I think about this every story lately that we do it's like incompetence is only so much of a defense when your job is to be in charge at some point though and this is not making excuses for him somebody has to take the keys away right like this is a world that he is not versed in right and so he apparently really stepped in it there and I think this comes into you know the arrogance piece of it where you just think you're smarter than everybody else oh I got it right people who you know value the type the murder she wrote typewriter are probably not going to be the people on top of everything on social media so if you want to know what really works in social media you don't go to somebody who's 70 years old right again I'm not I am not making excuses for lambardianness but it just gets into the arrogance that he's doing it and he keeps stepping in it well then he raised the question of like but he is pretty good at speaking and he is I've heard him on so many podcasts over the years and I find myself thinking like I don't know if this guy is giving me real actionable like intel or anything but he can be charismatic as a speaker a good storyteller but it takes us to the interview that we had with Craig Walsh pill Walsh's son briefly here because what like lambardi says in gridiron genius is that he was a key part lambardi was of the championship run in the 80s and before the 86 draft Walsh would invite him to these invitation only scouting sessions where he learned at the foot of the master how to scout and Craig Walsh meanwhile says this you know he was just doing a very very limited role I don't think he really had any personal contact with Phil Walsh outside of maybe seeing him in all the way I'll jump on the wagon a little bit is because I don't like him using you know the fact that he was part of the 49 organization then all he did was go get sandwiches right there's the quote I mean Bruce from al davis which is one of the greatest quotes of all time that leads right out of that which is quote Mike lambardi has been fired from every job he's ever had every job he can't get a job last year was fired from a job he was working for for nothing he was fired from Denver but he does have ability he does have some ability and quote that was 2008 I don't know the sandwich place he was going to back then but like look that you know a lot of times people start out and have a role and then they work their way up he somehow was able to work his way around I don't know if it's up but he was able to work his way around and again he's got this relationship with Bella chick and that's the biggest thing on the back of his you know baseball card right now is bill bell chick believes in him mentioned that you work still at Fox Sports you know November 2016 Michael and Barty is an analyst for Fox Sports he's co-hosting a football podcast by January he's off the show there's no explanation and multiple sources have told me that is exit was quote sudden and never explained in public. And so this is a bit of a thing when it comes to raising questions on the way out. Yeah, as I'm thinking about that, I think the Kaiser Sosei line is a poof, he's gone, you know, like it was kind of like that. And he's worked at a bunch of places in media as I'm thinking about there's there's a few others that he's also been connected to, you know, and it's look, I, you know, we both have worked at multiple places, you know, in our careers and everything. It's just like when you leave and to say he's polarizing, it doesn't feel like it's telling the whole story, right? Because polarizing makes it feel like it's 50/50, you know, like I'm not seeing the other, the other 48% of people who are in his corner. So it's really fascinating to see how this is just overshadowed Bella chicks time there. And that's what's just kind of come up in the last couple of weeks with not just honestly his story, but like obviously there's other things that are going on in Chapel Hill that I think are probably frustrating folks there who are just trying to figure out if they can get a winning team going. Right. I mean, for people who don't know, like a university like North Carolina, one of the finest public institutions of higher learning in America, there are the athletics department folks, but then there also the university level, like board of trustees folks who oversee everything. And this story is this vortex that has demanded the attention of the people for whom football and sports are not even close to the only responsibility they have. And yet when it comes to like why are we here in the first place, if you read the people in Chapel Hill have been covering the story day in and day out, they point to the chancellor Lee Roberts who fell in love with the idea of Bella check the former board of trustees chair John prior who resigned in January, they were the ones helping cheerlead. So to speak for Bella check as the big splashy higher as like football money became this fountain that everybody wanted to drink from all the monies and football. Let's get the greatest of all time. And it just feels like they ended up trusting a guy in Bella check who has at the very least not proven the ability to pick the people that he trusts as he figures out what the last act of his sort of football life might be. And the question at the end, I suppose, is a football question because North Carolina's best hope lies in the new offensive coordinator Bobby Patrino who you may recall from the time he was fired as head coach because of a motorcycle accident that exposed an undisclosed inappropriate workplace relationship with a then 25 year old department staffer who he had recently hired and given a $20,000 cash gift. Yeah, I mean that you cannot get passed if you if you're a college football fan, you think that you immediately think of the neck brace that he showed up in afterwards and few photographs are toxic, indelible than him in the neck brace. You know, remember like he was also hated by a lot of you know, hated. You know, his his is like the opposite where he's hated by people in Atlanta for the way he ended and you know, how he's treated right went to the end. Oh, yes. So, you know, like right now, um, Bill Bella chick needs to lean on Bobby Patrino to fix things because if they're good on offense and you can get solid quarterback play, you know, maybe you can because remember now, all of a sudden the defense, you know, like obviously, Bella chick knows defense better than anybody, but his son is the defense coordinator and that was the area where they actually weren't that bad, right? They had like a top 40 defense last year, even though they were four and eight. So, um, a lot to unpack once, you know, they get to double on Ireland where this the first game is going to be against TCU by the way, beat them by like 40 points last year. I don't know if there's a better symbol of everything as they got a fly to Ireland to do this thing while navigating the respective sorted histories of all of the people involved than the word he said earlier, which is baggage. There's a lot of baggage. You got to unpack to figure out how much longer is this trip going to last? If you're Bella chick, do you stay if you're six and six, you got to like the street port in the pants forever, you know, you really came back for that. So I don't know, like unless it's a big breakthrough season, I can't imagine he's going to want to do this for another year because again, not to plot out hate, you know, he doesn't need me playing his agent, but, you know, he was doing a lot of TV last, um, you know, upon the council of Jordan Hudson, he was out here doing our jobs. He was at times also quite compelling if he wanted to be interested. He is. Yeah. Yeah, I thought he was very good whenever he pops up on certain things like Sabin is, right? Because he sees the game at a much higher level, has a much keener eye in terms of what matters. He's really authoritative when he says things that what you know, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to access and those and tactical football and technique things, whether he's on the manning cast or he's on macrophy, like he is good at that. I don't, you know, like, like, I'm surprised he didn't just leave that lie at 73. Bruce, there are two ways to age in public, I think. One way is what we've just been covering. The other is embodied by Angela Lansbury, who was gracious and graceful to the very end. Ed, maybe that's a lesson to learn here too. Yeah, focus on that than the, uh, the typewriter, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a time to step away from the keyboard in general. Bruce Feldman, thank you so much for doing this, man. I have a feeling that we might be talking to each other at some point soon. My pleasure, thanks for having me. This has been Pablo Torre finds out a metal-lark media production and I'll talk to you next time.