Tailoring "Suits" with Creator Aaron Korsh

Hi, I'm Patrick Adams. You may know me as Mike Ross on the TV series "Suits." Hi, I'm Sarah Rafferty, and you may know me as Donna Pulson on "Suits." And this is Sidebought, a "Suits Rewatch" podcast. Or actually a "Suits Watch" podcast, because Sarah and I have never actually watched the show. So each week we're going to talk through an episode of the TV show. Tell stories from set, compare notes, memories, answer listener questions, talk about the music, talk about the clothes, talk about dazzling performances. Yes, yes. That is actually what we are going to be doing most weeks, but this week is going to be a little different. Yes, this week is going to be special. In our last two episodes, we talked about the pilot of "Suits." So this week we thought that we should talk to the creator, showrunner, and the mind behind "Suits" Aaron Corsh. But I thought that before we dive into that, it might be a fun thing to just talk a bit about where we were at before we showed up on that set for the first time. September 2010, up to that point, what's Sarah Rafferty up to? Okay, so while I had been knocking around for a bit, I mean, at that point I was well into my 30s. At this point I had knocked around as like a guest on all kinds of shows. I recurred occasionally. It was, I mean, it was good. It was good. I was working. I think that's huge for an actor to work. You knew early age you're going to be an actor. What, how old are you? It wasn't early. I don't think it was early. I mean, sixth grade when I played really rosy, I should have now. That's when the world now. I should say that I left out that I had done a lot of pilots. So pilots are the first episode of something. How many pilots do you think you had by your build? I think there were like seven, eight, nine pilots. There were some pilots. And every year, you know, we were based in New York and then I would come out to LA for pilot season, which used to be a thing. But talk about putting pressure on yourself. Like I got three months to get the job that's going to potentially change my life. And they wouldn't get picked up. When suits came along, I had just done a pilot, a comedy pilot here in Los Angeles. It was going to be a dream job. And we were waiting to hear and I got a phone call that it wasn't going to be picked up, but a very wise woman had told me, you know, whenever things don't go your way, just get grateful because there's meaning there. Right, right, right. So I hung up the phone. I took a deep breath, got grateful that I should live in the mystery of that. But I also had to hurry up and finish putting on my mascara because I was going to just send out in Gabriel's premiere of a movie at the ArcLite. No way. And maybe give us a quick history. Sorry to interrupt, but you and Gabriel, friends, how? Did you meet? Oh, okay. Okay. Sorry. I just feel like that's a hopeful piece of information. We met in 1993 at the Williams Town Theater Festival. We were in the act one company, which was the young company. And I was, I just graduated college and he just finished his junior year in college. And I was getting ready to go to drama school and we met that somewhere doing plays and became great friends and- Do you have a foundational young Gabriel memory that I can hang above his head and make fun of him for anything you can give me? Oh, nothing I can- Or I can be quiet. I can't offer any- I just like any amoeedish. I think it can be sweet too. No, I think- look, I'm always going to choose the- Go sweet. No, I can turn on that person who mocks. But no, I remember so when we were at Williams Town that year, I remember we were in the theater and there was a big first meeting. And I do remember like getting tapped on my shoulder or something and turning around and- Gabriel just had this grin where I swear to God you could superimpose like the Cheshire cat. Did he have the long, long blocks at this point? He had just shaved his head. Okay, for anyone listening, you want to go Google Gabriel mocks 90210. You're going to watch that video. You're at the premiere? Okay, so Justin and Gabriel did the red carpet and did their press. I was waiting at the far end with Steven and Suzanne, Gabriel's parents and I greeted them when they were finished and I was so excited to see the film and Gabriel just said, how are you doing? And I said great, answered and he proceeded to ask me several times until he got the news out of me that the pilot had not been picked up and he said great. When I get home tonight, I'm sending you a script. You have to audition for this role. It seems really small in the script. But it's going to become something. I know it's going to become something. So promise me a lot of audition for it. And I was like, man, whatever. I didn't take it that seriously, but he did follow up the next day. He did email it that night. And he said get yourself an audition and I couldn't get an audition. They wouldn't even let you audition. There wasn't, there, I couldn't be seen in Los Angeles because it was a guest and they wanted that role to be cast out of New York. Well because it wasn't going to be that the role of Donna was not originally intended to be a series regular role necessarily in the pilot. It was a guest. Yes. Absolutely. It was a guest. And I couldn't get the audition here. And so Gabriel suggested just make your own movie of your audition, which I had never done before and didn't know what the thing. Because self-tapes weren't like a thing at that point. No. And I had to go to a place on the braya and record it and send it in. You still have this tape. Please God tell me the tape exists. I think it would have been on VHS. Bonnie Zane. Bonnie Zane, our casting director. Who was our casting director from minute one, right? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Oh, she'll have this tape. So it went to New York and then, yeah, I mean, we can let Aaron tell the story, but they were, there was sort of a rule in place that friends weren't going to be cast. Right. Which is a sort of normal rule. Absolutely. Until it's broken, but people like to sort of set that boundary. Yes. Yes. And then I remember when I got the offer for the job, I remember my manager at the time, my manager, I had two managers at the time. One of them just was like, why are you going to go do this? No, it's in New York. It's going to, you're going to be gone for two weeks. And I had the opportunity to say, listen, it's, you know, it's, it's not working the standard way, right? Like this, do a pilot every year, wait for somebody to get picked up. It's, you know, it's kind of the definition of insanity. I'm doing the same thing over and over. Something's got to change. Like, how's that working for you? It's actually not totally working. Right. I said that, but I said the more real truth, which was, it's a couple of weeks. My friend is starring in this thing. I just want to go there and support him and show up. I believe in just showing up. And he said, oh, okay. You want to support your friend? Go for it. Can I ask you something? Was there something about the role? Anything specific, even though it was quite small on the page and the pilot was there something to the role that appealed that you saw something in Donna that was like, I was intrigued. I was intrigued by the world. And I was intrigued by Donna. She, I thought there was a little bit of mystery there. I was like, who is she? Is she a girl Friday? Is she like Rosalind Russell, the gal behind the guy who's going to. Right. Not always be the gal behind the guy kind of a sitch. But I think there was a deeper thing of like keeping myself small. Right. Like she was going to be small. And that made me not as nervous as we've talked about. I can just have fun with that. No one's looking at me. I'm just like serving a function. Donna is made to soften the edges of this guy, is made to, you know, give us information about this guy. Donna is a functional character like the way you analyze a play script. You understand what your function is. Not to skip or spoil alert to the end of this whole process, but I just think it's so crazy that that's the beginning of your story given that this show basically ends with the story of you and Harvey. You know what I mean? Like I just think it's like the coolest trajectory that it begins from that place where you were enjoying being able to keep it small and safe. So but to you, to you in terms of where you were before and then you were the guy out front because as I've said many times, like it's a big deal to be you and Gabriel carrying the show. It was safe for me to hang out behind the scenes over to the side, but you guys were carrying it. So catch us up to where you were in your life. You were young. I was. Look, I mean, look, we've, I've watched the pilot now and I'm stunned that that little nervous ball of terrified young meat managed to pull this off. I don't know where I got it from. I was the same thing. I was kicking around. I'd gone to school down here. You see it study theater. Come out and then play at the taper was my first job at a school thought that you know, I was it was all happening. Here we go. Here's my career like and then all of a sudden it's all three years like it does and I learned the art of you know, easy come easy go. Started doing a lot of guest star stuff, managed to do a few pilots. I don't know how many I did. I think I put a lot of them out of my mind, but that process of getting your hopes up and thinking, oh, this might be the thing and then it really not being the thing and it being disastrous. And then in the I'd have to look at the timeline exactly, but I would say like six months before I received the script for what at the time was called a legal mind. I had been fired from a pilot's friends with benefits. I had been cast, gone through the whole process. I did not want to be on the show. I was not I did that time was very uncomfortable with with funny with comedy, especially like network comedy. It was not my strong suit. I did not want to do it, but people kept telling me that I. I should go do it. And then I went in for this audition and the director, whatever reason thought I was the right guy. And I kept being like, I'm not the right guy. I really am not the right guy for this. But I kept going and going and going. They got the part long story short went to the table read, you know, which in this town, you know, they have you read this script in front of all the network executives and there's a room full of people that are all sitting there and watching you and judging you. And it couldn't have gone worse. And at the time that felt very personal. It turns out in the end everyone ended up being fired off the pilot, including the writers. So it was not very funny, but to a young insecure nervous actor. It was me. And so that was like a real bottom of the barrel moment, obviously, you know, already young insecure, fearful, not sure in the same way that you described like, is this what I'm supposed to be doing? Is this meant to be? Then you get fired. And it's very public humiliation, you know, it's on deadline. It's written about. And so you feel like all those things you fear most about yourself that you're not ready and that you're not good enough to do this. It's like writ large and there was. And so fairly convinced I was done, you know, not necessarily like packing my bags yet, but definitely trying to figure out what else could be the thing. Love photography at the time I was taking headshots for people. I was like, maybe that's it. Maybe I'm just a photographer. Maybe I'll do that full time. And then a couple months later I got the script. And there was something that happened in the reading of the script and the same thing you described in the world and this character who was so felt so lost as he says in the pilot of the line about I feel like I'd been knocked out track. Not a ten other world. Yeah, knocked into a never world and I've just been fighting to get back. There was something that was so relatable that all of a sudden I didn't have to like act anymore. I was just like, oh, well, I get that. Like I don't have to pretend. I don't have to put anything on top of it. Like that level of desperation. I also believed in myself. I was like, I've worked really hard at this and I've had all these other experiences in theater school and in my work that have been like profoundly rewarding and I've had a lot of people tell me like I'm meant to do this and that, you know, you got to keep fighting, keep fighting. So I had that voice in my head too. So going into this process and meeting Aaron and going into the audition, I just felt like calm in a way that I had not felt in normal auditions and for people that aren't familiar with the business to get a show, you know, you do the first audition, then you go back and you do a work session with the directors and the producers and then you go back in and you, you know, do another work session and then you go in for the studio and then you go in for the network. You have to do it over and over and over again in each time. It gets increasingly more demanding and scary and there's more people in the room that are, you know, not being particularly friendly or on their phones or ignoring you. And for usually you get worse and worse in nerves and every time I was like cool, I get to tell more, there's the scene from the pilot where the interview scene with Harvey and Mike in it where he goes, you give me this and I'll work harder than anyone's ever worked before basically. Like you give me this and I'll show you that I can, that I will, nobody is going to work harder than I'm going to work. And every stage of this audition process, I was like, oh cool, there's just more people that I can tell that to. Oh, that's so beautiful. Like I was just like, oh, now I can tell it to the exact, there's nobody who's going to work harder. I'm going to be the best actor. I'm not going to say the best. I have a lot to learn, which is what I loved about Mike, right? Fish out of water. Like he's not, he doesn't know all the things. He just knows that he's going to work harder than anybody. And there was something about that that I was like, well, I can be honest about that. And so I just flew through that process. It was like the easiest meant to be audition process. I was just not even sure that I was going to get it. Just sure that like there was no doubt that I could be honest when I said that nobody will work harder. You want to give it to somebody else go ahead, but I'm telling you nobody's going to work harder than me. And so it ended up working out. And I couldn't believe it. And you know, and then I was like the dog who caught the squirrel or whatever. I was like, oh wait, I have to do this now. But again, what a gift. The whole pilot, you know, is this character is just like, how do I do this? How do I do this? How do I do this? You know, he's just this like little puppy in a way running around this world, trying to figure out how to do it. So I could use that nervousness. Yeah. The whole time. But you were very, your performance is so free. It is so free and like innovative from moment to moment. I can see the way you listen throughout the pilot. I promise we're not going to do this for every episode, but like blow sunshine. No, no, no, it's fine. We can do this forever episode. Don't worry. No, no, no, no, no, no, it's good. Hey, Patrick. You're just going to share a fun fact about Aaron Corsche. I wish you would. He is the, I think he's my only friend that I can talk to on the phone for like five to six hours at a time. We did that like three months ago. He's so great when you have someone like that on the phone because when you need to get off, it's also fine. He's like, yeah, yeah, go. Oh, I know we'll do this again. Like, it's like, it's like there's just a long lifelong conversation and sometimes you're on the phone together and then you're off the phone and then when you're back on the phone again, it's just five or six hours. Like he'll talk as long as you can go. You know what I loved about this interview is that we, you and I were here to talk about something else and then to Aaron just appeared out of thin air. It was one of our first days. Yes. Our amazing producers are sort of crafted this interview together because he, he, he had said he might show up. He might be able to make it and then we started talking about I think another episode and then in he arrived and we just pivoted into, you know, another great conversation with the man who changed all of our lives. Yes, exactly. And it really is a great example of how once you just get started chatting with Aaron, it just takes on a life of its own. I'm really excited for the listeners to hear get to know Aaron a little better. And, and hopefully it's just the beginning. I mean, as you'll see, there's so much more that we could be talking about in this conversation. Aaron has been such a big supporter of us and our idea to do this from the very beginning. So I think we're hoping that this is just the first of many conversations with Aaron along the way. Yeah. We talked with Aaron about having a segment, right? Patrick, we had a segment where we could just call it, you know, Aaron Pixafight. We could fight with Aaron Corsh. You had pick a fight with Aaron Corsh. I have the Corsh call. I want to be able to make a phone call to Corsh at any moment. Now that he's busy running and creating another show, Suites LA, maybe he'll be less available on the phone, but I don't really mind bothering him while he's on set. But I would love it if our listeners want to call in with questions for Aaron. We can shoot them over to Aaron and he can send us a voice, Mema. Absolutely. I love that idea. We love this man. I mean, look, he changed our lives. This show is straight from his heart and his life and his experience. And, you know, it's a weird thing when you're on a television show and someone's created it. You are basically like walking around inside their brain. You know, very few shows get to run as long as suits did. So that means we spent, I spent seven years. You spent nine years just sort of perched up in his brain, saying the words that were coming out of there and bringing these characters to life. So it creates the kind of friendship that you rarely see or experience anywhere else, at least in my, in my opinion. And what I love about this interview is that we get into Aaron's journey that led up to this moment in his life and how he had been on a different career path, what changed him, what moved him to become a writer. And we really dig into the pieces of this show that are autobiographical for him. And I found that all just so fascinated. And I'm so excited for everybody to hear. Before we get into the interview, why don't we take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to have suits, writers, showrunner, creator, and friend Aaron Corsche. Oh my god. I cannot believe what I just saw, can you? Do you know what we just saw? Couldn't be more beautifully timed. So we have a bit of a surprise. What? Aaron Corsche. Guys, ladies and gentlemen, we're introducing to the studio, none other than Aaron, what's your middle name? Taylor? Thomas. Thomas. Corsche. I don't know if you can remember back, but we're talking about the show called suits. Not, not real familiar with that. Originally it was called a legal mind. I mean, that my jogger memory. But maybe a quick introduction to who you are and what you're doing here. Hmm. Who are you? My name is Aaron Corsche. Aaron Thomas Corsche. I created. Has Portnumber. Yes. Oh, three, nine. I created and ran the show. Brief history of me is I grew up outside Philadelphia and you know, if someone has the closest to my autobiographical history in the show, it would be Mike Ross in that I was incredibly handsome. Devastating. So smart. So smart. Athletic, all the things. No, I mean, the defining characteristic I would say that I gave Mike was I had an excellent memory growing up. It was not photographic, although I am told that my grandfather could recite words from a book he had read 10 years before and kind of read it from his mind. But I didn't have that, but I wanted to, so I sort of exaggerated that in Mike Ross, but it was one of the traits I had. I always did very well in school without really working very hard. But I also somehow always felt like a little bit of a fraud. So I did go to a good college. I wasn't a fraud. I didn't not go to college. But when I got this job out of, I went to Wharton, which is the undergraduate business school of University of Pennsylvania. So I went to Wall Street and that I worked for a guy named Harvey. I interviewed in a hotel. Wait, his name was actually Harvey. Harvey, yeah. Harvey Hanterfield. We can probably put that out there. There's a real Donate. There was a woman named Donate, yes, in the office. The other thing about this company, we were in Vesson Bankers, not lawyers, which is a longer story. We can get into that later. But I felt like. I did not belong in that world just because everybody was pretty earnest and serious and there was a lot of rule following And I just felt silly and I never felt like I belong so I sort of again externalized my inner feelings of being a fraud and made Mike an actual fraud Oh the last thing I'll say is I did not get into Harvard I wanted to go to Harvard and I didn't get in and it really pissed you wanted to get it You wanted to go for this no undergrad. I just wanted to go undergrad Wharton was I got undergrad and I didn't get in and I was furious and It's just a life lesson. I mean look at like I don't think Harvard would have been as meaningful in my life had I gotten in as it was by having not got But Harvard missed out on the course field house I was gonna donate $400 million to Hartford's here, but I've decided not to do it How did you decide that you wanted to leave that world and get into writing? Well, I had a roommate in college for three years several roommates But one guy in particular I live with for three of the four years and he when we were about 25 years old He died it was a terrible he went swimming in the ocean by himself and was missing for like four or five days And then he was dead he drowned and it was horrible and it really it just shook me I was like I was 25 years old and It hit me that you can die you're not guaranteed anytime in life I could die and all of a sudden I was like I do not like my life. I do not like what I do So it took about a year for that to resonate through with me and I ended up just quitting and Sort of travel the world for a couple of years. I had saved money I landed in Los Angeles and I had one friend in particular that was a very successful comedy writer at like 24 years old He actually created the original Ellen show the sitcom all right So he was going to a table read of a pilot right on these sitcoms at the time and still now They would have a table read of the pilot which is the first episode and they would read the script and then they would rewrite it afterwards and I went to that no one knew I wasn't a writer So I sat at the table with him and I got to watch them rewrite this thing and I was like Holy s**t. This is the greatest. This is what you do for living and I had always been a huge fan of Movies and TV so I was like this is what I want to do. Did you ever written anything? Not a word. I mean I would go out of my way not to write it. Warton you had to take a freshman English other than that I never wanted to write a paper never nothing wow nothing And had you read scripts? No, did you always growing up have the encyclopedic memory for movies and TV? I did yes, I love the dialogue. I mean I would watch and I still do like when I love something I'll watch it ten times fifteen times Look my mother when I decided to do it she said look it looks like all those years You spent watching TV. We're actually not a waste of time Yeah, I didn't know it at the time, but I was I was studying less into all others. Yeah get off my back mom But it took years of I didn't know how to write I had an instinctive way that I felt like I could but I didn't understand how to tell a story in the sense of writing a show and I eventually got a job these guys I had another friend also they gave me advice to get a job as a writer's assistant and By watching people do this for a number of years you can learn and I got lucky I got a job on everybody loves Raymond, but not as a writer's assistant as a PA and You know I had gone from making you know hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to basically minimum wage getting people coffee and It was another hit to the self-esteem, but I was there for a purpose to learn how to write and It ended up taking eight years until I got my did you ever question the decision? Oh, yeah They did you actually consider going back at any point or would it once you were gone? Did you know that was over well? You know in those eight years I had gotten married before the eight years happened But I got divorced and and I was like here I am. I'm like I'm not married anymore. I'm like making no money I don't know that I considered going back, but I considered giving up I don't know what it would have been sure and you know I think to make it in our business it takes incredible perseverance and I like to tell people like perseverance doesn't mean that you never have doubt and you never think about giving up like in my mind I gave up. I think we put it Harvey says it to you. I gave up about every four weeks I in my mind. I was like I give up But then I would just pick myself back up and do it again that scene where Mike Ross decides to come to work in the pilot I like to call it the first totally Positively masculine scene. There's the there's the scene when Mike's got his briefcase and Harvey catches him with it And he's giving him the monologue and the lobby saying like you know, you got to decide you want to be here And then he shows up the next day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah It's the first time that we see that side of Harvey that can be very mentor like and very Positively masculine. Well, I see what I think the scene the night before was was that negatively masculine? No, no, no I'm just I'm kind of kidding, but here we are with the Aaron picks a fight segment No, well, here's the reason I say that is the scene the night before when he's like you need to decide whether you want to be here or not I worked for Harvey for a little bit in New York, but after that I worked for another firm And I had another boss guy I worked with that his name was John Herbert and Basically after my roommate had died I sort of started hating my job because I hated what I did and John Herbert took me aside and said to me You need to decide if you want to be here or not because Basically you're acting like a** all these days and you need to either quit or change your attitude or we're gonna fire you And he didn't say it He probably didn't quite say it as harshly as Harvey does to Mike But I view it as one of the best things anyone ever said to me Yeah, I respected John and he was right so unlike Mike I went home and I was like You know what I don't want to be here. Why am I but not in a man? But like why am I angry at these guys? It's not their fault. I hate this job It's I don't like this job. It requires different things of me and it made me move on so I actually think I read that Yeah, I ran into John and he was like oh man Do you hate me for saying that you're I was like of course not what are you? It worked out You drove me here The helicopter wouldn't have landed on the roof today But I the reason I went on that segue and thank you for indulging me in that is just that I appreciate learning about the pieces of this that is autobiographical when you wrote a pilot about Wall Street You were told that you needed to turn it into a law show So was that a change and was that hard? Well, they actually said you need to make it a procedural okay Which is a case of the week show and I thought well the only way to do that is to make it a law show Because the lawyers would be close enough to Wall Street Well, it was a little bit of a process because when I first wrote the script my Agent at the time Dennis Kim who is now my manager He sent it to a bunch of production companies and they all wanted to have a meeting with me and I think there were like 14 of them and 11 of them were like we love this we can't do anything with it What else do you have right? This is how it works here in the business? I was like oh you love it, but you don't want to touch it do it So I didn't have anything else and then two of them said if you make them lawyers we can sell this and Then the third one said which was Jean and Dave We want to do it as a Wall Street show So I picked the people that wanted to do what I wanted to do and they're like actually we wanted to be lawyers Well, USA was like it needs to be a procedure on it and so at that point I was sort of prepared Lawyers is what it has to be although I think you guys know this the night before we were supposed to pitch this thing Dave says you know they could be an advertising and they could be doctors and I was like What the hell are you talking about? Literally the night before I'm like we've been working on this thing for two months I've not changing here's what I was wondering as I was watching the pilot and knowing that it was originally a Wall Street show was like It's not an easy thing if you're not super familiar with the law same exact question So like you know because I've always known this story and been like oh yeah, it makes sense lawyers have more and then so many ways I think you've talked to me about this that a lot of the cases that these guys deal with a lot of times overlap with something You would have dealt with the investment banking and in the business world But like still it's not an easy thing for somebody who didn't go to law school or no Somebody doesn't know a ton about the law to write a show that takes place in the law world So how did you was that just an easy pivoting? You're like I'll just figure it out and we'll just talk to lawyers. Well, there's a few answers to that question I mean part of which is I'm really really smart The other thing is I'm Jewish so that's sort of your half a lawyer if you're born Jewish because you're just arguing your whole life with Everybody no and in particular the first season a lot of what they do is investment banking and when you are an investment banker I've taken a legal studies class you are involved with contracts You do know a lot in particular about corporate law And then I had always loved I mean LA law was one of the shows. I read that pilot over and over again when I wrote this show as a Wall Street Show I read it so I was steeped in what I call television law and then my goal is to make it seem real It doesn't have to be real so actually when we would have real lawyers sometimes on the staff They would want it to be real Look to me the other thing about the law was it's about the ethical questions that are posed to lawyers That doesn't seem like you have to be a lawyer today. do that. We just would create situations where, you know, I know what subordinate perjury is, right? It means allowing someone to get up on stand and lie. So do I. So do I. So it means getting allowing your client to get up on the stand and lie. Yeah. That's an ethical question as much as it is a legal question. So we were just constantly creating ethical questions within the confines of the fake rules of law that we would create. It was called a legal mind. When did you have to switch the title? I don't remember when I wrote it. It was called untitled, "Corsh Project." So I actually did not come up with any of the titles. I did not come up with the legal mind that was Jackie Decrinis at USA. And I liked it. So we made that the title. And then they decided they didn't like it. And then I believe it was Alex Seppiel that came up with the title of suits. When we were on set of the pilot, I remember us all talking about it because we knew that the title was going to change. I don't know how we knew that but somebody had already said. They told us. Yeah, they knew that this wasn't going to be the final title. So we were all like trying to come up with the legal mind. What was your raw success? He loves a pun. I mean, it's good. It's funny because I've never been. I just try to make the show good. I'm not great with titles. So I didn't so funny. It was your show. You didn't love suits. I did not love it at the time, but I love it now. So Aaron, can you tell us about how we talked about that shot where Mike goes into work with the bike. He's carrying the bike and where he's standing comes up. It's the stairs. Yeah. Can you talk about that particular location and what it meant to you? So what Sarah is talking about is the building that we shot in the city court building. When we were shooting in it, you know, we go. It was a real empty law offices that was beautiful. Obviously, and became the basis for the set. In the offices, we were looking across the street at this building called the lipstick building that you could see out the windows of our offices. And that was the building that I worked in for three and a half years, my last three and a half years in New York. And you could see the floor that I used to work in sort of 20 years earlier. And we took a picture of me on the windowsill with that building in the background. And I was like, if you told me 20 years ago that in 20 years, you're going to be shooting a TV show in this building across the street. That's crazy. I didn't even, I would have, you know, bet my life that you were wrong. So it was super cool. That shot was remarkable coming up from the under the Kevin must, it just did such a beautiful job. Kevin and Jim to know who was our DP on that first episode. But to transition from under a guy with a bike to up at the building, that's a beautiful shot. What's interesting was, I mean, he needed a crane for it. And we had this big argument, what kind of a crane? How first of many? Yes. Well, and it was more with Kevin and Dave Bartis, the producer, because the bigger the, you know, the more expensive it is. This is the constant like directors think they need the most expensive. Bigger crane. But we were doing the shot. And Kevin never actually got it the way he wanted it. I don't remember how many times we did it. But I think the shot is amazing. But Kevin's, you know, he's rightfully so perfectionist. But it's beautiful. It's curious what he would have wanted out of that shot. You said something amazing yesterday about Kevin that is directing his so incredibly graceful. And that there's always a Kevin special. Yes. I don't like to give Kevin compliments on places that he might cut all this out. Don't worry. He's not here to hear it. So it's fine. Let me say, he did text me. He was on a plane to London. He is an HBO deal now. And he texted me a screen shot of the suits pilot. And he's like, we killed it last night. He did it. No way. Really? Oh, wow. That's perfect. But yeah, look, Kevin has certain shots. I didn't know it at the time. But after watching him direct so often that you will find it in many of the things he directs. And I call them Kevin specials. But one of them is sort of like oftentimes he likes to sort of rise up on the back of a couch and see someone silhouette or two people silhouettes off the back of a couch. It's always beautiful. And the one shot, I think you're mentioning is the reveal of Jessica in the pilot. Yes, you sort of see her well, where Lewis walks into the office and you just have her silhouette it up. Yes. And you're like, who is this mysterious woman? She's so beautiful. And that shot tells a lot about like she's sitting in the power. So powerful. So powerful. So powerful. And it was, you know, Kevin, he is like a maestro. A lot of his shots, you know, sometimes I feel like directors, they want to do cool things just for the sort of sake of doing cool things. Kevin's shots are they are graceful. And he he's like a conductor and there it amazes me. And I think what's interesting is that in I went back and I looked at the script that you still had of a legal mind. And when you talk about that scene where we're introduced to Jessica and Lewis comes in, it was there were more lines. There was less in what we ultimately have, but we but it was all communicated. And I think from me one of the things I was most excited about, we opened with you were panning down the building into that room. And what I thought was amazing about is that we started panning down, we go inside, then we see Rick and I got very excited to see my friend Rick. And then we cut, we're coming up like an elevator on this beautiful woman, Jean-Ataurus, who plays Jessica. Not familiar with her. The goddess. But that shot tells us how to feel about Jessica's character. I feel like we have to rise. We need to rise up. Yeah, that's to be with her. And I'm looking at the scene right now. Fun factor name was Catherine in the pilot, which I had forgotten because they had two shows where their leads were named. Mom was Catherine, Mom was Kate. And they made me they wanted to change the name. And I was like, who is going to tell my wife, Catherine, that we're changing the man. So that's how that happened. So you changed Kate's name to Jessica. Yes. And I also had Kate change her name. Yeah, that's what I'm. Yes, exactly. Now we all call Kate. But you are a point about the words. And I think this speaks to my just my bigger impression of the first 30. And it's been a long time since I've watched it. And I've always heard people talk about what a great and special pilot it is. And it's been like, thank you. And yes, but I didn't understand the first 30 minutes of this, you know these people so well. And for things like that, like that interaction between Lewis and Jessica, I like see a whole story take place. I see how long they've been working together. It's the same thing with Donna and Harvey. I'm like, oh, these people are best friends. It's the same thing with Mike and Trevor and Jenny. You know, we found ways. And I think it had a lot to do obviously with the quality of the script, but also Kevin bringing that is like, and just great actors who was like, how can we create as much familiarity as possible? And by the time we hit that 28 minute mark, more than any pilot I've ever watched, I'm like, I know these people. I know these people. And I'm in because I know because I had totally relate to them. I know what an old friend is like, I know what a friend that, you know, that you don't trust as much. I know what it is to maybe be attracted to the person like, yes, it's all stuff. You can relate that the power dynamics are so, so clear. And you haven't had to spend so much time like you would in a normal pilot having to do all the plot, right? Like you get a little bit of it. You get the Gerald Tate stuff and you get the Jessica's looking to figure out who her successor is. And all that's there. But we haven't had to get into any of the case stuff yet. You are still doing plot because there's obviously plot your scene. I'm like with his grandmother and all those things and the LSATs and all that stuff. He's got to make some money. But it's not exposition and it isn't a case. And that's, you know, look, the first season we had to be much more case heavy because that was what they did at the time. I resist that stuff because I'm more interested in the, you could call a character drama. It's also the soap of a thing that the stuff of life that isn't, you know, we're not even if you're a lawyer when you wake up in the morning, you're usually thinking about your life. You're not thinking about the case that you happen to be working on at that time. Right. So, yeah, I love those 28. Speaking of Jessica before we move on from that, was Jessica ever a man? Yes. At one point Jessica was a man and they suggested changing Jessica to one. And I was inexperienced. So at first I was like, Oh, change. Don't like change. And then I was like, it's better. And then we were having trouble casting her because I foolishly in my brain, the real way it would have worked at the time. Someone at the head of this law firm would have been 60 years old. Yeah. So I kept looking for a 60 year old woman for whatever reason they just weren't popping. But I thought of Gina early because she was the one cast member that I really was very familiar with. I was a big fan of Firefly. And I love Gina. But I just thought she was too young in real life to be the head of this firm. And finally, I was like, this is insane. The essence of this character is power. There is no woman or man more powerful in the world than Gina Torres. And I gave up when I came in to do the readthroughs at one point when we were doing like a chemistry reads with Rachel's, I think you were doing Jessica readers the same day. And I remember I walked into the like lobby where all the actors are hanging out with the paperwork. And I saw Gina Torres in the way that Mike feels about her. Yes. Yes. Which is he just dodges her? Yes. So scared of her is how I felt about Gina Torres in that waiting room. I just walked in and I was like, immediately like, just be quiet. Don't bother her. They'll say anything stay away. Give her a wide breath. She couldn't have been more friendly. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. She just has it. I love her. And I'm still afraid of her. My lizard brain is afraid of Gina Torres. Then I remember I love her. She's the greatest that the nicest woman of the world. (dramatic music) (upbeat music) - You had never made a television show before. How did you know going into casting? You had Bonnie by your side. - Right. - And Gail and Kevin. - But what were you checking into that you can accredit like your understanding what was a certain actor was gonna bring versus others? 'Cause I'm imagining you saw pretty much everybody in town for this pilot. - Yes. - I didn't know how to evaluate is this person gonna long-term be blah, blah, blah, but I didn't have any thought of that stuff. I was like, I like the way they perform these five scenes. And these five scenes show some shows humor, intelligence, power, charisma, whatever the combo was. So to me, and this is the way I write, this is the way I produce, it's like if it makes my sort of heart sing, I'm drawn to it, those are the people I wanna go with. So it's just a very like instinct. - Instinct, I'm a fan. Like the actors that I love to watch over the years are the actors I love to watch over the years. I can't necessarily put into words why. I will say this with Gina. Like if I see someone in something, and it's 20 years later, and I can remember the first thing I ever saw them in, that's an actor that I wanna work with. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Also you remember them from their auditions, and you're like they weren't right for that part, but later five years later there was another part that they were right for. - Yes. - Which I think is also an important thing for the young people that are hopefully listening, know that everything counts in a way. - Oh, many, many times. I'll go through a file in my mind and be like, remember that person that did this? We should have them for that, you know, whatever it is. - Yeah. - You also always would say, I don't know, I need to see it. - That was the gift of the pilot, and we were just talking about it. For me, my biggest takeaway of shooting this pilot was just the feeling of like even though we were on something it was big and there's a lot of money, and there's always a lot of pressure to get it right, 'cause it's the first episode. I felt like we were all in it together, and the best idea always won, and if we could make you laugh, then we changed the line. And it was like-- - You have a distinctive laugh, I don't know if you know that. - If anyone's picked up all that. - I've been told. I was thinking about the pilot last night, 'cause I knew I was gonna come in here today. It's an iconic thing in the pilot. When you do the fake gun thing and you shoot at Harvey, and then he gets out of the way. That was written differently, right? It was you singing some silly song, and you were like, how about I do this instead? I'm like, let's see it. And I was like, oh my God, this is the greatest thing ever. It's a completely iconic moment from the pilot. I'm sure if you look at that script, it's not there. - It was not that, it was something different, and it was better. - I had to do that, I did go look, because I love that moment so much. It's worthy of the meme that it is in the world. But knowing what you know now, is would you go back and change anything in your pilot? Okay, amazing. - I wanna talk specifically if we can about this episode. My favorite scene from this section, and I think it's sort of an undeniable first place as the Mike and Harvey interview. I've heard that a big part of the reason the show took off again, second time round, is because it ended up on TikTok. Have you heard this theory? - I have. - Right, that people started doing this thing where they took slices of shows and they put it on TikTok and they did scenes. And that was the scene they put on TikTok that caused a lot of young people to go, what is this show? And I guess there's some clear pattern from the day that got put on TikTok to the day that people started watching it on Netflix. Like it happened almost right away. And we have such a younger audience this time round than I think we even did the first time round. - Yes. - Like there are young people coming to this show potentially as a result of that. And I think maybe a lot to do with that scene specifically. And for me, it has a special place in my heart. It was the audition scene, you know, so we did it a couple of times. - Yes. - In front of people. And it was, I don't know, that was the most special rewatch for me in this first 30 pages, for sure. And it had some of my favorite lines in it, which is the one about getting knocked into another life. - Which also was a great cut. You know, we cut to like an off-angle shot of you in the middle of that line, which I remember that's Kevin and Robert. - The blocking too, brilliant. I love how we switched seats. I couldn't figure out I haven't gone through the script specifically on this one if that was written, but the blocking of changing into his character. And so it becomes this like the job interview that switches and it's like we're suddenly equal in a weird way. - You know, there was something that Kevin did there that was pretty brilliant. - But there was something that Patrick J. Adams did that was really brilliant too, that moment when you reveal that you're playing hearts. - Oh, I love that part. - And you say, you say. - It's my favorite part of that. - I love that. - But I feel like I was really aware of the places where you were making choices that were so specific to only you would make that choice. In that, every line can be delivered a million ways, but the sort of kindness and gentleness and non-cockiness of like if you're gonna try to beat me at something, you're gonna have to pick something else. - Sorry, I'm so sorry. - I'm so sorry. - I'm Canadian. It's my Canadianness. Like I'm so sorry. - I'm really good. - I have empathy for you. Like this is gonna be hard and I'm just putting down the laptop. - Which makes it even hockey or no weird way. - Well, I didn't experience it as that, but it was so winning. - Yeah. - That I've always said that Gabriel is incredibly transformed as Harvey. We're all very, very transformed. - I think Mike is very much a version, especially if who I was at that time. Like there's differences, but Gabriel is playing a different person. That is not, I mean, again, there's always similarities, but for me, I would say it was not a huge transformation. I would say I was pretty similar to who this kid was. - Gabriel Rick and I have really big differences. - Right, very, very different. - From our character. - You do in a lot of ways, but in terms of just your sort of day to day affect swagger. Gabriel is the one that is nothing like his character. Everybody else has, if there's a Venn diagram of who you are in your way versus your character, Gabriel is the one that has the least overlap. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I became a little bit more like Donna as I aged into her. I think she taught me a few things, but we'll get into that later. But yes, so Gabriel was the most transformed. - Because she's a grateful dead hippie. - Yes. - He's goofy. - He's a goofy hippie who wants to go watch great full-did shows and have a blast. And then he's suddenly Harvey Spector. And he looks and you're like, yes, that's Harvey Spector. - Yes, yes. - Well, I told you my first day on set when I remember was walking down the street to go to our trailers and somebody was shouting at me and it was New York and I was a New Yorker. And so I just like talked to my chin and buckled down and walked a little faster. Like I didn't look, right? And then that person was relentless and I sort of looked peripherally, very quickly and moved on. And then the last, the third shout, I turn and it's Gabriel and I didn't recognize him. And I had known him as we spoke about since 1993. So I was like, what is going on? - What is going on? - This guy. - Who are you? And that was a moment where I was like, oh, I was right to fight with my manager. Like this is special. I knew when I read the script and now that I'm walking down the street in New York City and I'm looking at my old friend, there's some fairy dust sprinkled here. - The testament to how good he is too though because if you put certain actors in a version that is not themselves, it doesn't work that well that quickly too. It could take a long time before you figure out how to embody that. And with him, he could just do it. They want-- - What is the gifts of some of the great character actors but in the body of him with his type? So very early on as we enter, I talked about the first, visually what Kevin was creating and how we get introduced to Rick, how we meet Jessica. And then we go right into kind of the, sorry, you're gonna pick a fight with me but hyper masculine world. - Okay. - If we go into the poker game, we start to learn what we're into. We do that and then Harvey has to leave and come back. Jessica texts him. He's got to come back to deal with Gerald. And at the three minutes and 40 seconds, somebody talks about balls. So I appreciated that the right way. They go right into balls. - Right in the balls. - But there's at the end, the joke about the fire drill, right? - That was Kramer. I think that was Kramer. No, I put the fire drilling. He added another joke on top of that. I will say that, yeah. - It's a very serious scene. And then in true suits fashion, Aaron Cors fashion, we get that nice button of the joke about the blue team captain. And you start to immediately understand Jessica and Harvey's relationship, but also Gabriel smiles exactly that way that I met him that like, Cheshire, Cash thing. Yeah. And I was like, "Ah, Miss Chipmapiss." - Nobody else can play Harvey's vector. Right there. - Why does a guy who doesn't ever carry paperwork with him anywhere? Why is he holding on to the fire drill memo in his suit? (laughing) - Not a single scene in suit's history. Does this man have a piece of paperwork? - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. - You're wrong. Every scene we ever shot, he's got that. - Got the fire drill memo. - That same fire drill memo inside of his pocket. If he uses it for every, anytime he needs a memo. - If he needs exactly, if he needs to bluff someone. - It's actually a memo from like 12 years ago. - 12 years ago, 12 years ago. - Five blue team captain. (laughing) - Oh my God. I got a weirdest scene, but I don't want the weirdest scene. The scene with Lisa in bed the next morning. - Okay, that transition. - That you transition from, do you want to eat breakfast off my stomach to Grammy? - Same scene. We went from one exact face. - You transition actually not from her stomach, from a different part of her body to Grammy's face. - Oh yeah, you linger on that scene too. You ride. - I linger. - Okay. - What were you gonna say? - I don't want to jump ahead to the next part, but the scraping scene where the guy scraping the stuff off the window. In the writing of it, I loved that. His audition, I loved it. I haven't had a good time since 2004. I'm like, what? He was local New York and he was so good. What's interesting is that when you look at the script, we started in Mike's world, but when we look at the pilot, we started in Harvey's world, or in the world of Pearson Hardman. And you were saying that that was sort of an organic choice that you've always been kind of open to where scenes are going to go in many ways? Yes. So I don't remember. I believe that that change was made before I saw the cut. Like we were saying, when you shoot this pilot, the editor edits it. And they usually edit it, put together an assembly, which is in the order that the script is. But then after that assembly, they might change some things to present to the director. And then the director gets their cut. And the director will delete some scenes, move some scenes around. They'll do whatever they're going to do. So I don't think I made that change. I think that change was just in it when I watched it. But the question would be, do you show the guy that's the fish out of water that's going to get thrown into it? Or do you show the water that the fish is going to come into? And I don't know that I consciously thought that at the time, but they must have made that determination that it's better this way. And I just remember watching it going this is working. I just thought it was so interesting that you're not actually white nuckling with the first shot is you're going to shoot the thing. And then you're going to kind of be open to figuring out what reveals itself to you. Early on, sometimes we would wrench about what order the scenes should go that are in two different storylines. Like if you're in a Harvey story or Mike's story, should it be a Harvey and then a Harvey or a Harvey Mike and then. And once I realized pretty early on, once I started editing, that I was like, we don't need to talk about it at all when we're writing the script because the fact is these are all decisions you're going to make in the edit bay anyway. So why spend hours talking about the writers? Yes, yes. And that was something I learned as we went. So interesting. Let's talk about the weed for a bit. We've been doing the math on this weed. Because there's a lot of money. Listen, it was going to be cool. First of all, I love that Mike is told by a very aggressive doctor. Like just in the hallway, you're going to have to give me 25k. Like I have questions about that doctor. There's no payment plan. We're not I know follow up questions. The doctor is just like straight up give me 25k. And I was like, okay, okay, great. And then lo and behold, the next scene is I'm going to give you 25k to move this pot. Great. All right. I'm going to move it in order to I think we did the math on the weed in order. Well, I found the average price of an ounce of weed in New York City in 2011. And it says it was about $100 an ounce. Yes. I would have to be holding like 16 pounds of weed in my briefcase. Just to cover the 25k. Is that not possible? No, 15 pounds of we did a Google search of what 15 pounds of weed looks like. It's a lot. It takes up most of the middle of my God. Oh my God. Because I think we had this conversation during the pilot. And we all argued about it. And Aaron was like, I do not care. It does not matter to me. And it's true because it does not matter at all. I was intrigued when I was watching it. How much of it we made up there of Donna's stuff. Because there wasn't even a line there when he said, do I look like a pimp? That wasn't there. It was like, yeah, love it. And I remember the pimp wasn't there or the yeah was there. But I didn't have a response. And I remember being scared to ask if I could speak. Right. Right. Who did you ask me? I probably asked Kevin. I probably asked Kevin because I actually didn't know any of you. Yeah, no, none of us knew anybody. I may not have known that you were the writer guy when I was there. Well, here's the funny thing is I was scared during the pilot. You know, we were all scared. I was a low. I had been an assistant for eight years. So in my head, I'm still assistant. Nobody wants to hear what you have to say. And then I had been staffed as a writer for a couple of years. And then there's a hierarchy of writers and I was the bottom level. And still sometimes in my head, no one wants to hear what I have to say. I'm just an assistant. And I think that's sometimes. And that's the end of the show. Thank you so much. Sometimes that's why I sometimes overreact to someone disagreeing with what I'm saying is because I'm feeling like they think I'm unimportant. And I'm like, no, you're going to listen to what I have to say. And then I realize, wait a minute, they're going to listen. And then they're going to listen to what I'm saying. Oh, it's in the Netflix cut. Oh, it was not in the Netflix cut. One, if it did go, it would air as an hour and a half with commercials. Yeah, yeah. As opposed to most shows or an hour with commercials. Right. So anyway, that's sort of how we can cut. So weird that they decided, did you have any decision and like whether it gets put back into a Netflix cut? There was some weird version that was like a middle length cut. I don't remember what it was for. I think maybe, I don't know. But I had no idea that Netflix was going to air a different version than we had it aired. Like to me, it's not the right version. No one asked me. I didn't even know until people started saying why is Victor Garber in the thing. He's obviously great, actually. Let me say, and the scenes were great. And he would have been great. But it didn't work for the pilot at the time. And if you ask me, I like to have, I'm an originalist. Like, I don't like that they added that scene back. This is a story. It's not there. Yeah, with the job of the hut, it was like that wasn't in the original. Why are we doing that? So I would leave it the way it was. But it's interesting yesterday, you said the thing like when the food's out of the kitchen. It's she said it was asked me yesterday if it bothered me. I was like, it does bother me, but I'm like, I made the pilot. I'm happy with the pilot that I made. If somebody's watching a slightly different version and they still love it, I'm not going to like lose sleep over it. And then when you jump into your giant swimming pool of money and go swimming, it's not about that. It's like hundreds of times. It's just like, it's just a couple of choppers. But like, but like, I can't hear any of it from my helicopter. I, we are definitely giving the wrong impression of probably would. I think it's weird to not consult the creator. - A little drop is another thing we're talking about. - One of the things we have is fashion police. We want to talk, which is really just an opportunity to talk about the fashion, which I've learned is the thing we can't really talk about in the pilot 'cause nobody's particularly fashionable is what I've heard. - No, and what's interesting is I loved the, I think the first thing you see me in is this green dress that's belted. - Yeah. - And I remember that was Club Monaco. - You know at the beginning of that scene, you're also saying something about the belt. - I'm talking about clothes. (laughing) - Like the beginning, you're standing there talking to the woman about it. - I didn't think that would, I didn't even think that would be able to tell. - Oh, it's great, I love it. - But I was just placed with her, I mean we were there for four seconds before action and I just was like, - Oh, it's got to talk about something. - Oh, it's got like a cute little thing. - Yeah. - They could cinch if you, like we must have been talking about outfits. I suddenly-- - I just remembered your line like after that, you want me to show you how to wipe your ass. I don't know what made me think of that, but when you get around-- - So that scene in the script, I was not in that scene. I was on the intercom, so on the day it changed. - Hmm. - And I was there and I do remember the moment, like it was my impression this probably wasn't real, but it was my impression that Kevin Bray and Gabriel separately were kind of like boosting me forward a little bit, like taking me out of the wings and being like, "No, come here, come do this." So we, Gabriel and I decided that he was signing things and he was looking at those pages and that we knew that you had to get the card, but I remember saying maybe I give him the card 'cause I'm the one who has all your stuff who does all this for you. You're above having the card and he was like, "Yeah, yeah." And Gabriel was also helpful in developing the character of Donna, in who Donna was. - Well, he also just never wanted to hold anything. (laughing) - So a lot of our characters are just based on Harvey never wanting to have a briefcase. That was me, it was like, "Well, Patrick has to hold it 'cause I'm not holding it." So Mike always had to have the paperwork because Gabriel was just like, "I'm not, I don't carry things." Which works. - Look, I wanna be mindful of time 'cause we could do this forever. So I thought maybe a good way to close is just to say, first of all, thank you so much for coming today. - Thank you for having me today. - It's so helpful not only to have you here, but to just have you be a champion of us doing this ever since we called you and told you that we wanted to do this. You've been so supportive and so excited for us to do it. - I actually, this is James's mind. - I came here to serve you guys with papers. I want you to see some cases. This is bull (beep) this is garbage. - I was gonna see, I was gonna go. - This is the thing I get. - But just to echo what you were saying too, is you've been so generous to say that you are willing to come back and maybe send us some voice memos or let us have the course call or email us back when we have a question in the future so that we're gonna have your point of view as a bit of a touchstone throughout the whole thing, which I think will be really special. - Which you will be paid zero dollars. (laughing) - I'm gonna pay you in hugs. But in closing, I guess before we sign off here, are there any things that you would say to us as we head down this path 'cause you have rewatched the show a lot and anything that you would hope for us in the process of rewatching this, I think you both know that we're people that have sort of avoided watching this show for multiple reasons. - Yes. - It's hard to watch ourselves, hard to go down that path. So anything you want to say to us as we begin this process of looking back. - Well, I mean, first of all, I hope, I hope you guys love it. I mean, I really hope you can, with distance, appreciate the work you did. It was amazing. And this is even if you hadn't done this, I was like, I hope that someday you can each watch it with your children and they can appreciate what you did and you can appreciate what you did. That's really what I hope for you. I don't give a shit about this podcast really. (laughing) I love it. I love that this exists. I love that you're doing it. And as much as I can be a part of it, I would love to be and I hope you bring in everybody. And it's awesome. - Cool. - Thanks for changing my life, Erin Corsche. - Thanks for your encouraged. - You guys did the same. We appreciate it. - Thank you. - I'm so excited to keep talking to Erin as we go through this series, but that's all we have for this week. Next week, we're gonna be breaking down episode two of suits, errors and omissions. In the meantime, please reach out with any questions or thoughts to [email protected]. We can't wait to hear from you. See you next week. Sidebar is produced by Sarah Rafferty, Patrick J. Adams, and Sirius XM Media. Our senior producer is Kimmy Gregory. Our producer and researcher is Christian Trader. Our sound engineer is Alex Gonzalez, and our audio mix is by Eduardo Perez. Our music is by Brendan Burns, and our executive producers are Cody Fisher and Colin Anderson. (upbeat music)