T.S. Wiley: 24/7 Lights, Related Mood Epidemics and Life's Purpose for Children

Hey there, welcome back to Notches Paleo. I'm your host, Evan Brandt, and I told you last week that I had four new interviews that I put up on my Action Guide website, rimrehab.com. I just wanted to try to help you more than just give you a guide and hope that you don't just read it and then just store it on your e-reader and then you just forget about it and you just add it to the other pile of books that you have. In spite of giving you these interviews, I'm going to give you a discount coupon also for podcast listeners at rimrehab.com, it's REM-20 and you get 20% off. That's all I got for you, and I'd love it if you gave me a review on iTunes and that's it, so let's get into it. All right, well I'm back here with author T.S. Wiley, the author of one of my favorite books called Lights Out, and this is a book that I found at half price books out of all places. Yeah, I found it there and I'll tell you, you talk about getting a bang for your book. Your book was awesome, so welcome to the show. Thank you very much, I'm happy to be here. So your book, which I need to pull out here so I can read a little bit about it to people. It's called Lights Out, Sleep, Shudder, and Survival, and you talk about many, many different things, but the most key thing is that you say that people are dying for a good night's sleep, which is pretty a big deal because I just wrote a book all about sleep and I interviewed a bunch of my friends to talk about neurotransmitters and foods and how all of that ties in to sleep. So you're probably another person that I could add to that list someday, but I guess maybe we should talk about what got you interested in sleep or how did you figure out that electricity is screwing us up so bad or where would you like to start talking? Well, you've got to remember the book was written 14 years ago, so 14 years ago I had smaller children, my kids are adults now, and my husband's family was rice with type 2 diabetes and the low fat movement was in full force, and I, you know, they had these like low fat cranberry juice, which is hilarious, and I questioned, I questioned the whole idea that fat made you fat. I grew up on a farm in Illinois, and I had the benefit of growing up seasonally, I mean, we grew food, we ate it, we had animals, son came up, son went down, living in Southern California, more like a movie set, you know, I mean, I lived in Santa Barbara at that point, so there was, and we were just at the beginning 14 years ago of 24/7 of the internet all night and cell phones really, everybody had one, it was a brave new world, 14 years ago, so I questioned whether or not eating fat made you fat, so I went after the low fat movement, I mean, that was the first thing I did, I looked at basic biology books, high school biology books, and it turns out when you eat fat, you experience something called competitive inhibition, so that fat competes to inhibit you making fat inside, so you can't eat fat and be fat, so then the next question is, how do you get fat, how was it happening? And why I predicted 14 years ago that the low fat movement would make people 30 percent fat or, and that's about the number right now, then that way for a couple years, so that's what happened, it's just a little logic, yeah, I mean, the world's a different place, I mean, I'm 23, so 14 years ago, I was just a young boy, but I mean, I remember my dad having a phone, he had a cell phone, and I think it may have even, I don't think it was quite a bag phone, but it was pretty damn close, I mean, it didn't have a color screen, it was just the orange, backlit screen, and all it had was numbers on it, that's about all it did was call phones. Yeah, all it did was call someone else, and it was enormous, she didn't really want to carry it with you to get help it, doing most of them work up to cars at that point, you know, you could use it in your car, but yeah, it was a completely different world, I'm talking to you, you know, on an iPhone, and right now you can have the whole world in your pocket. And dopamine is part of the reward pathway that makes people ethics, whether you're a gambler, or a drinker, or, you know, any kind of drugs, and the reality is that dopamine comes from blinking lights, so if you have blinking lights on late into the night, you become more likely to have it on the next night, the next night, the next night, and you have to sleep in season, how many hours of darkness before midnight gives you, you know, an idea of how much sleep you need, so when you don't sleep in season, when you go to bed at midnight or after, you're into the next day, so you lost a whole day, and nobody thinks about it that way. You get so many hours of light and so many hours of dark, and they control your blood and sugar, and your cortisol, and prolactin for auto-immunity, or erectile dysfunction, and all kinds of diseases, they certainly control age, and how many days and nights you live, you have that much dopamine to use in the daylight hours, well, if you take two days to one, you're going to run out of dopamine sooner at the end of your life, and that's Parkinson's disease, and that's dementia, that's all sorts of things, so when you run in fast forward, when you take too many trips around the sun, you get summer, summer you get long light and high carbohydrates, and that lasts three or four months, well, when it's eternal summer, in other words, every day is long light and high carbohydrates, and nothing ever stops, the lights never go off, and the sugar never ends, that's four trips around the sun, so three or four months, in twelve, that's four trips, so you age four times as fast when you don't go to sleep, and when you don't change your diet. Yeah, I mean, and this only has been affecting us for a little over a hundred years now, I mean, people need to realize that the light bulb has not been around that long, and people think that we have all of the information and everything out there is, everything's on the table, but the question of light, you know, I was kind of one of the first health podcasts, even talk about blue light specifically, but light at nighttime, talk about that a little bit more, how basically we are living in fast forward, because our brains are getting the signal that it is summer, because at nine p.m., the lights are still on, and so that's just how does it, what does that do? Well, one of the main points of light out was when you want a mid-type snack and you open the refrigerator in the light, it's your eye, you don't want to shrink these or a hard-boiled egg, you swim a wine or cake or, ah, candy bar, you crave sugar when you have long light, and being up at midnight looking for something to eat, you've been wandering around your house, which is lit up like Yankee Stadium at a night game, you know, you guys have one light bulb, a hundred watts, a hundred candles, now if you had three or four of those light bulbs done in a room, and those were really candles, you'd be on fire, the incredible heat, what set the curtains on fire, you'd be on fire, human beings were not used to, not only the luminosity, you know, how many lumens, how much bright light, they weren't used to being warm all the time, we've got the heat on in the winter and air conditioning on in the summer, we don't change temperature, we don't change light, we don't change food, we can get any food for, I mean, just when you think about going through city, so I'm in LA and hungry, and somebody says, what do you want, and I say, oh, let's get a chagin, and the next night I say, I really want Thai food, and the next night somebody says, how about, how about we go to a pub and we'll have some, you know, British food, and the next night, let's go Mexican, I've gone around the world in a week, in cuisine. And my body normally would have had a fixed point in time and space where I would have eaten relatively the same four or five items each season over and over and over again. And that's it. That's what my body would have needed and used. And I've taken in a whole world in a week and I get it after dark with all the light on walking around. That's how we get sick. Yeah. So what do you eat right now? So you said that you're a little bit out west. So what are you eating this time of the year? We're talking here in the end of May. Yeah, I'm in the Southwest at the end of May. They're not. Yeah. Come on. It's the Southwest. So everything's full of blue corn and the food, the cuisine here where I live is not mine. I'm a nice old white lady. Okay. I'm a little bit sweetish. I'm a little bit British. I'm a little bit Scottish. So the food that my body genetically would have known is not the food that's here. I grew up in the Midwest. That food is closer. I mean, I would have pork chops. I would have a steak. I would have potatoes. I would have. I would stop in the real world eating big animals all summer. In other words, no beef, no hogs, no whatever because if you eat the big animal, if you eat big animals in the summer, they've just had babies in the spring. So you're killing the parents. The babies will die and you've got nothing next winter when you need those grown up babies to be big animals again and rebreed. So in the summer, you would eat more chicken fish, eggs, things that are fast breeders. Obviously, when I grew up on a farm, grew tomatoes and corn and we had fruit, people don't think about the fact that any fruit is only available for three weeks and then it's gone. We use ethylene gas. We bring it from chili in the middle of winter. We, real fruit is available for you to know when you've had good strawberries or you've had good peaches or what a, along the side of a road that, you know, they're only there about three weeks and the bugs get them in. We're done. So the fact that we have the ubiquitous carbohydrate load 24 hours a day, 12 months out of here is a big part of the problem. You have to go down, you have to carbohydrate to set your liver like alcohol, like liquor. And you, some people, even are prone to throw the same kind of enzyme, so if you get a blood test and they had a glass of fruit juice, it looks like they had a vodka. So, you eat fruit all summer and you eat berries in the beginning of summer and you eat stone fruits in the middle of summer, apricots, peaches, plums and then we go back to things with seeds that are getting smaller again like melons, watermelon, cantaloupe. And then at the very end of that season, the tiny seeds are in apples and things that you might draw if you want to keep some fruit, but that's it. That's all the fruit. And then winter comes and there's nothing green and there's no fruit and, you know, maybe so that's maybe if you can give your chickens warm. And by February it's sleep for a tree and then we start again, you know, that's how the world works. And nobody's ever written a seasonal diet and asked anybody to really adhere to it and then try to sleep at the same time. You shouldn't go, you should go to bed and be ready to be found to sleep two hours after dark. Now, depending on where you live, two hours after dark is, you know, five o'clock, four o'clock in the afternoon in the middle of winter, but that's how the world works. And if you can sleep those long hours, you're sleeping off like a drunk, you're sleeping off all the carbohydrates all winter long and then we reset all those enzymes, all those mechanisms and we start again in the spring. And those are the timers in nature that have been obliterated in the last 100 years. Light bulbs were $1400 when they first came out and now they're $1.45, you know, energy gets cheaper and cheaper. We have not adapted. This is an evolutionary speed bump where people are just dying off because they can't adapt that fast in a hundred years. Yeah. I love the way you say that the clocks of nature, I mean, that's what it is. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like I need to stop. I have it on a higher floor. And as the sun comes up, the sun goes down in what hormones are light responses and dark responses. And I mean, this is all just science. Yeah. So basically, the way I understand it when we're exposing ourselves to so much light, weight, we're cranking up cortisol, but are we cranking up serotonin also? No. What happens is when you expose yourself to that much light, do you have a mean and cortisol are in play and cortisol mobilizes blood sugar and cortisol mobilizes blood sugar all day long. So you can run away. So you can work so you can whatever the light does that for you now when the blood sugar is mobilized constantly longer than the hours of light, you become, you know, you're pouring insulin to just first have blood sugar and your insulin receptors most naturally to save your life from all this energy become resistant to insulin factions. So mobilizing blood sugar long after dark causes insulin resistance so that you will be more insulin resistance the next day than you were the day before. So that you can get better without really even eating more. You're just, you know, on the little bit you eat the next day, you're going to store more as fat and you are going to put it into your muscles. Your arms and legs go down first, they become insulin resistant first. That large abdominal fat pad is insulation that's right, the insulin right insulation against the cold for your organs and the assumption is if there are long light winters coming and you have to store the food is fat because in nature winters coming and everything will go away and if you didn't have that fat, you wouldn't survive. Now when we have climate change, longer growing seasons, more heat, the ice age is coming. So getting really fat, 400 pounds, you know, 300 pounds, whatever is kind of an ice age weight gain for a bigger chaotic rhythm, you think? Yeah, I wanted to say what you said again. So basically, I mean, it's, it's so mind blowing when light is long or like the modern day society surrounded by artificial light 24/7, that is telling our brains and our bodies that winter is coming. So we need to store fat. Yes. Yeah. It's a very normal in the summertime, it's meeting season in the spring, those that we're going to give birth to and those that didn't have another shot at mating. So that's why the beach is sexy. It's not because everybody's naked, it's because of hot and the light is bright and it's time to mate. So in the summer, you go to bed late and you have maybe two hours of darkness before midnight maybe. And in those two hours of melatonin production, you time the production of prolactin after midnight. And when melatonin is short, prolactin is short. And when it's short, it comes back the next morning. Much like when you're too tired, you wake up drugged because your melatonin came back the next morning and it's like somebody gave you, you know, ballyum because you didn't have enough melatonin in the night before so the mechanism is to return. When you don't have enough prolactin in the night before it returns. So you spend all summer with your immune system on full tilt because mating is violent, there's scratching, there's exchange of germs and fluid, whatever. So your immune system not only needs to be on full tilt but picks the right mate but as a distance mechanism. So with your prolactin pouring all day long, you store fat differently. You have less impulse control. All kinds of things happen to you in the summer that once you made it in the fall at the end of mating season would then slide into hibernation. But we live like it's summer all the time, maternal summer, so we have no impulse control, we're depressed, our sex hormones are raging. You know, it causes, eventually it causes erectile dysfunction to much prolactin and people have MS and lupus and, you know, I would tell you autism is autoimmune, there's a lot of different things that are autoimmune and it has to do with Kisredmeow or the latter. of timing. We don't spend with the planet anymore right I'm so happy I get to talk with you I mean after I read your book I've looked at society different ever since then because the part that that really makes sense that no one is making the connection you know they talk about some scientists talk about solar cycles and they say that we're in maybe a less active or more active solar cycle and that creates more war and more violence and things like that but you broke it down to where if our sex hormones are high from all the cards in the light that basically we're in mating mode all the time and so we have bad tempers we don't have patients we have a messed up time perception and yeah time perceptions crazy they know from fever studies I'm personally sick and I'm a fever and they send in the nurse and the nurse consultation and she leaves and then she leaves for about five minutes if you ask the patient how long she was gone who has a fever of a hundred and above he'll say she was gone for 20 minutes she's gone for five minutes so your time perception has to do with body temperature with heat dopamine changes and that's part of the ticking clock of time perception so I don't know about you but when I get up and gone when the sun comes up my day is very long I have time to do what I need I don't feel rushed I'm doing okay when I wake up at 10 30 in the morning the day is half gone but I can't sleep that night because I didn't get up early enough to be tired so I'm awake too late I start to feel like crap after about three days of that my time perceptions completely shot I'm anxious because I'm not gonna get everything done because I don't have any day it you feel that way right everybody does yeah I mean I get up early I used to not I used to work third shift and you talk about messed up time perception but luckily now I get up go ahead I mean I feel like I feel like a human I feel like a normal person though but yeah I'm pretty I'm pretty chilled out dude and I look at a lot of people who don't know how to handle themselves in society and I think that you and I both we could say that there's many things that do cause that but we could say that too much light at night could could directly cause that because their hormones are cranked up too high and could we also say that the whole objectifying women and like the huge addictions to porn and I mean internet porn they make up like some of the the top 25 most visited websites on the internet many of them are porn websites and to me after reading your book I thought oh everybody's up it up late at night cranking up cranking up the light and cranking up the sex hormones is that true well they're also important in the middle of the night you don't fit in the middle of the day and look aboard I mean it's it's one of those things that that self-propelled it's a positive feedback loop but later you show up the more hyper sexual you feel and the more you look at porn the more you say up and the more you say up the more porn it takes to get the same reaction in any addiction the OPM receptors the dopamine receptors look try to save you and then you need more and more of whatever substance it is to even get the same rush so it's a self-propelled positive feedback loop yeah I would tell you that a lot of modern societies remarkable deficits given you know the technology we have and the kind of food supply we have and the things that should make light good and life is not good is just everybody's tired everybody's miserable everybody's self-medicated you know that's part of the addiction problem so yeah it's weird the more that I talk to people the older I get the more I look at society I try to separate myself and look at it as sort of its own entity and then I'm separate from it because I don't feel like I'm as crazy at least it's to be honest with you it's kind of frightening to think of of the future because I'm I'm you know like I said I'm 23 now and I'm looking at people that are 40 and 50 that when I was a little bit younger I thought they had it all together and all figured out but it seems like people are beginning to quickly break down and I just I don't know what the answers are I mean from what you've done and what you've seen can you still I mean I guess it makes it harder but can you still maintain optimal health or close to optimal health if you are following light cycles and you're following you know kind of a seasonal paleo diet is that enough you think to to maintain some sort of sanity I always tell people that there's some basics you know you get up with the sun and go to bed with the sun if you can you you eat in season in other words you're a look of or you're gonna you're gonna eat what's grown around you to the best of your ability for the couple of weeks that it's there and then move on to the next thing you're you know you really have to get more sleep in the winter you have to decide you know all those parties all the meat and greets you're young and all the you know socializing put it off or do it right after work at five or six o'clock or you know pick one day if you're gonna blow your life away to stay up till 10 30 nobody should be up you know at midnight two o'clock in the morning if they want a lit of as far as drinking goes yeah go ask the whiner to a week or a beer is not a big deal but that's a week one or two a week or every other week drinking most people are too susceptible in terms of liver damage and not even addiction and just you know it changes how much food you eat if that's part of it and love somebody I know that sounds corny but the reality is you're gonna live longer it's your sleeping with somebody or you care about somebody it's it's lost in a narcissistic panic exhausted paranoid world that you don't worry about you you worry about everybody else and then they'll worry about you it's very simple stuff it is and I well you go ahead well I just think it is if family still existed and I feel so I just betray your Joe's panicking because it's single serving everything I have a really hard time going in there because I feel so sad that there are people in single serving if you know I mean I would not only child on a farm but I had 81st cousin you know I mean so people have to have a group and you can make your own family with friends there's no doubt it's good to reproduce it's hard you need to do it when you're young enough to do it but there are endocrine thresholds where genes turn on and off especially for women and certainly for men where you go from being a baby to being a toddler to what's called adrenarchy and then puberty and then you explode you like a you know a quasar become a star the end you make more of you and that's the normal progression of things and the ceremonies exchanged you know my son explained to me a long time ago he was looking at a bog magazine and he was 12 and he's looking at women and I said Jake what would you do with all those women and he said I just squeeze them and it was cute because he was 12 and he said mom you don't understand it's like you looking at babies they all look good and I said oh I get that and he said yeah mom they just all look good and I and I realized at that point women want babies well men want women women want babies but babies want fathers so there is this circle that's necessary and you can make a family out of two two same sex people 26 same sex even those cults from the 70s you just need a family and you need old people and children around you because that's part of the continuum of life and then if we all eat together and we all sleep together and we all I think that's the most you can hope for before aliens land on the white house lawns I think that's all we got yeah well now I agree with you because I noticed actually I was talking to my fiance yesterday I said babe there's no old people here in Austin like I looked at I like to look at charts and graphs and stuff like that and just kind of geek out on it but I was looking at this graph of Austin and the population after age 40 it literally plummets and when I was back living in Kentucky the of course the you know kind of the 20 to 40 year old group was was pretty big it was like the most populace but then the chart didn't drop off so much there was a lot of 50 60 70s and 80 year old people but here you don't see any old people and it kind of freaks me out it's kind of weird because it's like the whole city is just run. by young people who have no time perception. They're all drinking. Everybody's staying up late. You know, I'm kind of a square. I go to bed at like 10 pm at the latest, but I don't know if we're just describing, we're describing a terminal college campus, you know, and you can't live like that forever. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it is. I mean, yeah, UT is big here for sure. Well, I do business in Austin. Yeah. There are a few, you know, baby boomers, but they're in their 40s and past that point. I don't know where they're old people. I mean, I don't know if they've left. I don't know. They must have been there at one point. You know, and babies, I mean, here in Santa Fe, it's interesting. There are a lot of children on the street, children everywhere. And you Santa Barbara, there weren't the really weren't Santa Barbara, California was not full of children. And it just depends on where you are. You know, whether it's family, friendly. That's interesting, isn't it? It's weird to see the different. Yeah. I guess you call it demographics, but I mean, just the different age groups and the people that just congregate around cities. It's so, I don't know, it's, it's a cool, it's a cool study. It's very interesting that there are no old people because if there's no old people, you can't have children because how do the adults work if you don't have help? The grandkids are very necessary to the success of young family, you know, and support, whether it's financial, or they're just taking care of kids. There's no, there are no children. Well, they just send them all off the daycare now, though. Yeah, it's warehouse. I think warehousing children became big in the industrial revolution. You started to make them all go to school and make them all go to daycare. I mean, you have warehouse children. It's a very brave new world, you know. Yeah. Well, I, I will say my lady, she's a preschool teacher, and so I know she does good work, but it still sucks that the people have to put the kids out, you know, it's, you could get good experience, but it's still, it's just kind of weird. It's not natural for sure. Well, you can think about the fact that children role model, you know, mom, mom of duck is going down the street and baby ducks are falling. If she turns the corner, they go sideways. They can't see her anymore. So when you send your children away from you, you get children back that aren't yours. They're role modeling somebody else, right? And those children, you know, it depends on the values you'd like to impart or the kind of personality you'd like to evolve in their children. It's, it's nice to be able to keep them home till their board and they want to go to school and it can happen, you know, but it's more like six or seven, maybe eight, they want to go to school, they don't want to go to school three or four. They really don't. Yeah. In fact, most of them should be breastfeeding to or four, three or four, minimum. Why do you say that? Oh, yeah, I'm a activist as the joke goes. Why do I say that? Because? Because? Well, I hear till two. I hear till two a lot, but I haven't heard it before. No, no, no, in nature, if we look at the tribes in Africa, if we look cross culturally, the average age of weaning in non-industrial societies is about six or seven. And a minimum of three to condition the immune system. Make sure there's no brain inflammation. Pass on breast milk is like wine. It has a vintage. So in my case, my grandmother was an Eskimo and her people have immune function and immune factors brought down because everybody was breastfed generation after generation to me. So when I breastfeed my nice Jewish kids, my husband's Jewish, they're getting a breast milk vintage that is going to compliment hopefully my immune system shows, right? Compliment the genes they got from him. And all of that controls your immune system. We see far less leukemia in children who are breastfed at least two, three years. We see far, you know, again, an immune cancer. There's all sorts of things that change when you breastfeed long enough, but more importantly, well, not more importantly, equally as important. In a book I wrote called Sexualized Menopause, Major Cause of Breast Cancer is not how many vitamins you get, how much exercise you have, your genetic makeup. None of it. It's how long you breastfeed because you use them or lose them. And there's a very famous study where they looked at 50,000 women with breast cancer versus 90,000 controls who didn't have it. And they simply sifted the data for breastfeeding. And it turns out that your chance of breast cancer is reduced by three percent I'm sorry, 4.5% every year you breastfeed. So in my case, it was accumulative 12 years. I've got five kids. So I breastfed for 12 and a half years of my life. So my breast cancer potential is reduced by half just because I did that. Now every year younger I was than 28. When I gave birth reduces, my risk of breast cancer by 3% and I gave birth to 3 out of 5 kids before I was 28. So that's another 10%. Now I'm down 60% in real risk. If my mother breast fed me, my risk goes down another 2.5% and she did back in 1952, which was crazy. She did it. Everybody thought you had a boy or a can, you know, formula. So if you read studies, if you read sex life in menopause, it becomes very clear that the biggest risk for breast cancer is not breastfeeding. And we can't breastfeed babies we never had. So birth control pills, putting off childbearing, the older you get, those are all the reasons for breast cancer. So you do say 28 is a magic number or the end? 28 is a very magic number. For men at 28, your human growth hormone falls off like you drop off a cliff. You can't build muscles as well in your 30s. You can't sleep as well in your 30s. All kinds of things change for men because growth hormone falls off. So women 28 is considered after 28. It's considered a geriatric pregnancy in gynecological textbooks. So yes, it's a magic number. So I got five years left of fun. I wouldn't say it's fun. I'd say you've got five years left and make a good mess and quite literally feather it. Get some babies in there, get it going. And to young people who have got used to the idea that they don't have to mature until that 35 or 40. The reality is when you have babies young enough to have the energy to still enjoy playing with them. When you have babies young enough that you're not scared about how much property you own and your 401k. You just put them in a front back and get a paper diaper. Mom got sued on her body. It's a very different experience. My dad had me. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was going to say my dad had me when he was 17. I think going on 18. And at the time, I guess it was kind of traumatic to him. But now, I mean, it's awesome. We can ride jet skis together. We can do whatever we want together. Go shooting. That's right. When you do those parents at school and, you know, I see them. I'll take my grandchildren to school, right? And I walk in and they're these parents. They're that I'm just assuming them. I mean, they're my age. Well, they're my age. I'm 62. But they're 50. Oh, they're, they're late 40s and they've got these little kids. And I'm looking at them and they can't possibly play with these kids. They're exhausted. There's nothing physical going on. And they have like one or two kids because they're too old. They have a real family. They have a kid or, you know, it's like a purse dog. It's an accessory item. You know, they're not building real families that will go on and build more families. It's a very different thing, you know, to wait so long. It's, it's like, oh, yeah, there's this t-shirt that says, oh, my god, I forgot to have children. You know, I've seen the t-shirt. But it has, I'm suggesting to you, it's a better experience to do it. What when you're supposed to do it? Because there's no theater. I mean, you've got this amazing second act or I didn't write a book until I was 43, you know, and I published papers on the likelihood of biology now. I had a pharmacy. I just sold it. I run this whole thing called the Wiling Protocol. And I didn't do any of that till my last child. My fifth child was three years old. I was 43 by then. I started at 25. My oldest daughter is 36. Wow. See, I've had this whole idea that when you do have a kid that everything else just, you have to put on hold and then wait until they get a certain age before you can have their life again. It's not true. They're backpacks. So we put your baby, nurse your baby, put them in the backpack. Do whatever you were going to do. Just include the child. And then that child watches you, becomes you, understands you. Yeah. Otherwise, There is no hope. You know, you get somebody on from. and you don't always like them, you don't want to go back. - Yeah. - So. - Yeah, I hate to give you a bit of a topic with whiplash, but I found some interview with you on the internet a while back and I wrote down a note to ask you about it and you were talking about how when we're sleeping or when we used to sleep and have this sort of state, you were talking about in between midnight and 4 a.m., it was some sort of transcendental state of sleep. What was that and how do we not have that? - It's called the extinct sleep state. What happened was you would go to bed around, now we're living in a case, okay? And we looked for food all day, we've done what we do, we made some clothes, we whatever. But we did not gather wood enough all day to stay up five hours after dark. That would have been a stupid use of resources. So we got a little bit of wood and we light a fire to get the animal out of there and we're gonna go to bed and we're talking for an hour or two and we're blowing food against our hands on the wall. We're making art. Mostly the kids did that, they're very tiny hands. Now those hand prints on the walls, okay? And we go to sleep. Now no one in the middle of winter slept 14 hours straight. So the sun came up because in the middle of winter it starts 14, 15 hours. You would sleep until little bit after midnight and between midnight and three or four in the morning, you were in something called awake alert. I don't know how familiar I was with babies, but infants, you will go by and you'll see them and they're staring, but they're not awake. It's called awake alert. They're in an alpha wave state that's meditative. That was the time after midnight when we had great thoughts when we talked to the gods, when we gave birth with no pain, when we did all of these things, but we didn't get up and wander around. We were in a hypnotic state and then went back to sleep and went back into REM. If you go back into REM, you'll not just read in the beginning of the night, you'll read again, toward morning. And that state of sleep is extinct because we've compressed the night so tightly that we don't go to bed sometimes from the night. So your brain never gets that connection with, I don't know how else to describe it, an out of body state, you know, that's not really dreaming, it's something else. You know, it's what you take Ayahuasca for, it's what it's to reach that part of your consciousness that we don't reach anymore. - Yeah, well, I had that last night. - That was great, true. Oh yeah, cool. - I had it last night and I had it a lot and then when I read you talking about it, I was like, wow, I guess that's what I'm experiencing. I mean, I have a notebook in a pen that I keep under my bed. And oftentimes it's usually, for me, it's anywhere from 1.30 to 3 o'clock in the morning. I wake up, sometimes I wake up and I don't know, I don't wanna say in a panic, but I am completely aware my brains turn on. I'm thinking stuff I've never thought before, like I'm thinking 20 years ahead of the future. I'm like visualizing this book that I'm gonna write in five years about my life or whatever and then I write this down. I mean, in this notebook that I have here that I wrote down some notes about your book, I have notes about all of these business ideas and opening up a documentary movie theater and just all of these different things that come to me. So am I hitting that state and I guess anyone can hit that state if they do go to bed. - Yeah, well, everyone hit that state at one point in time. But the electricity is very interesting. You know, I came to Santa Fe to study physics because you're hearing me in a sound wave. If we were in the same room, you would see me in a light wave, all environmental cues, electricity, magnetism, gravity. Everything is in a wave, okay? So those waves hit your body and the message is carried in a wave to the cells to hit, you know, response elements, promoter regions on genes and they produce a product which makes a receptor and they go on and on and on and on and could describe more boring molecular biology. But the reality is everything is in a wave form in nature. So when I invented hormones for men and women to take, I made them in waves, the dosing. You know, so they would recreate the state of grace that is youth, your age. In other words, you don't get some old person hormones in a straight line. You put them back to where they were. You give them to them in a rhythm in the amounts they had. That's what Stek Pfein and Menopause was about. And then we ran a breast cancer study. So I'm about to write a book on men's hormones called Die Hard, and with the obvious implications, you can't live without an erection, you can't get old, right? Like that, you need hormones. So, well, yeah, I get pretty bored and I kind of fell, I liked entertainment myself. But the reality is I came to Santa Fe to study more physics, to be able to explain to the world the force of nature that hormones are, and how they keep you spinning with the planet, and how when they go away, or they're dysregulated or disrupted, like not sleeping, or you just run out 'cause you got old. You know, we're on a planet that's spinning a thousand miles an hour under your feet. And you know, chasing the sun, 67,000 miles an hour. And if you can't hang on, you know, we're clinging to the skin of that tiny little planet, you just fall off. And that's what happens when your hormones are wrecked or they're going all together. So everyone, when the world was regulated by the stars and the moon and the sun, hit that state you're describing. But no one does now because even though you get it because you got enough sleep, you said I have a pen and a pen, paper. How do you see the light? Do you turn the light on? - I have this little solar powered flashlight. And so I leave that in the window sill so it charges all day. So I pull out the flashlight and then I put on, I have my orange tinted goggles, my blue blocking goggles and I put those on. I put those on first, I just kind of reach in the dark. I put those on, turn on the flashlight, open up the notebook and then just start riding sometimes, going through that stupid little routine. I forget the idea, but oftentimes almost like dream recall, if you practice it, the better you get at it. I'm pretty good at keeping the thoughts in there, but that's what I do. - Well, yeah, it's like Lucid dreaming. You have to get the gammas or dealt with faith. But the question becomes, could you do it better? Now, your phone, you and I both know a phone is a problem. But if you could wake up, click the button and just say your idea and then turn it off, you might be better off. - Yeah, yeah. - With this question like dragon. Then you are, because when you turn a light on really, what happens is dopamine pours. And when dopamine pours, you start to remember. So you know what time it is, you can tell me, it's like 130, you shouldn't know what time it is. 'Cause you're remembering that, okay? And that makes it much harder for you to fall back to sleep or to get back into the right rhythm. So if you can record ideas without really turning a light on, that would be better, but you gotta remember to turn your phone off, because the electricity, just the electricity in your walls is enough to reduce your melatonin by 80%. - Whoa, that's a lot, 80% just from the wall outlets. - Yeah, the difference in camping outside, the difference in camping outside and sleeping. I mean, if you've ever gone camping, you know how you sleep outside, it's very different. And sleeping in, yeah, yeah, that's the difference. It's the electricity, right? Yeah, I mean, we've talked about, I've talked with a couple of people about EMF and stuff like that on the show, but I mean, I definitely notice a difference if I cut the power rather than not cutting the power, but man, I didn't know was that big. - Well, even a tiny light when I set it in light out, tape over the little blinky things on your TV and all the, you know, every group got smoked to texture or whatever. They didn't study at the University of Chicago and it wasn't the '90s, that was a, what's it called? Come on, fiber optic cable to the back of the knee, size of the dime, blacked out the whole human being. Put it in a black room, just that much light of the fiber optic cable, the size of the dime, reduce smell of time and by 80%. - I remember seeing that study, that's bizarre. So I mean, even if I'm putting on the blue blocking glasses, it doesn't matter because I'm still sending light to the optic nerve regardless of what color spectrum it is. - Yes. I'm sure my lady wake up. What are you talking about over there? You know, because I press the button on the voice recorder and I would just go into like a miniature rant. I used to do that a lot, but, you know, not her. So it's different. Well, yeah, I understand, but you know, she's good to be enough. She won't wake him just because you're talking. She does sleep pretty deep. That's a good idea. I'm right. I have a little handy voice recorder here. I wouldn't even use my phone. I keep my phone out in the living room. It's a good idea. Yeah. Our battery operated voice recorder would be great. Yeah, that's great. I wanted to talk about these seasonal exercise a little bit. We don't, I mean, maybe we can get to that in a minute, but I just wanted to pick your brain. And I mean, the way you bring out these topics. I mean, I'm sure people are getting their minds blown when they hear this, but life lessons or maybe lifestyle lessons rather that you've learned in 62 years of life that we can send people to apply. You know, as a post more than just say, get up with the sun, go to bed with the sun and eat seasonally. Are there other stuff that comes to your heart? Well, I told you, you need to have children. I know people around you. You need to take care of other people more than you take care of you. You need to eat with people sleep with people. You exchange fare moans. Your immune system smooths out. Living alone is is is health hazard, frankly, I would tell you get outside. You know, they've shown that seeing the green light of outside for something like an hour a day, whether you take a walk, whether each or lunch outside, whatever changes the immune response and cortisol levels. You are part of a food chain and nature on this planet. And when you cut yourself off from that completely by staying inside by only receiving artificial light waves, artificial magnetism, you know, there's 50 hertz coming out of the ground when you walk barefoot. You're missing all that that would make you healthy. You get iodine out of the dirt for your thyroid just walking barefoot. There's a million reasons to have contact with that contact with the ground to go outside and be part of nature. You know, they and I'm not talking about one of the sweet machines that makes fake ocean waves or birds. I mean, real nature. I think that's very important. Yeah, when I worked at the park, I used to just play in the dirt all the time. I was getting paid to do it also, but I don't recall getting sick ever and then. Yeah, you got to be dirty. You're absolutely got to be dirty. All of those terms don't wash your hands every five minutes. All of those terms keep you from having asthma, make you healthier and general immune system stronger. Let your kids be dirty, you know, it's not a big deal. Yeah, I washed my hands. If I were playing around with rust, a lot of times I was picking up rusted, cheap metal and stuff like that from cleaning up old barns and stuff that we were going to turn into like a hiking trail. But besides that, I mean, I rarely washed my hands throughout the day. I could pull out a bag of beef jerky and just nausea on that and I never got sick. I never had any issues and then I quit playing out in the dirt when I moved down here and. I mean, I knock on wood. I haven't had any sicknesses, but I definitely didn't feel as good as playing out in the dirt all day every day. Well, I just rebuild your immune system germs are actually our friends. I mean, we coexist in a symbiotic way in lights out. We discussed the 450 species in your gut and that they put off something called endotoxin LTS or sweat. You know, the mattress that they're being alive runs through your veins trips a something called interleukin to which is an immune factor and that's what puts you to sleep. And if you don't go to sleep, your temperature doesn't drop a tenth of a degree with melatonin and you don't call the herd. They keep reproducing. So when you get on a red eye and fly across the planet, you know, the other side of the United States to you know, the planet turns west to east. So jet lag is worse when you can't beat the thousand miles an hour planes don't go that fast. So you get on your sick and you get off the plane, because you've been awake all night. They've had lights and banging noises and people around you and it's weird air. The oxygen is funny on an airplane. And you get down, you feel like you have the flu. You have a sort of throat, your eyes are scratchy, you're nauseous. That's because the end of tax and LPS kept building up because you never really went to sleep. You never cool down in the bacteria, got an edge. So you and they are the same thing, but there's counter balance. It's like standing on a board on a log. You never want to hit the ground on either side. Right. Isn't that what happen? I mean, isn't that how I mean, how would you describe sleep? Isn't that what it is? It's the build up of a certain immune function. And then when you go to sleep, it transitions to the other. I don't know how to explain that. Well, that's exactly it's like a Chinese water clock, quite literally in cells called per and Tim, they measure with a protein, the time passing and go drip, drip, drip, drip. And when we get to a certain point, the Chinese water clock tips the other way and you go to sleep. And then we start over again. But if you don't go to sleep, you're out of that balance constantly. And again, it's cumulative. You just get sick or in sick. Right. So how much better and more sane, can we make the world from just applying just kind of the basic concepts that we talked about? Oh, I would go as far as to say half of the war, half of the rate, more than half of just meeting self medication is exhaustion. It's lack of impulse control. Everybody's angry. Everybody's tired. And everybody's hungry. Even if you have enough food, you're still hungry because your appetite and overdrive and all of that has to do with how much you sleep. All the type to diabetes, most of the cancer is because it's a product of aging and you're aging and fast forward. You know, all timers, you know, all of it is a lack of sleep. I love sleep. I'm happy I wrote my first book about sleep. I kind of just wrote about it because that was one of my biggest struggles that I had to overcome from third shift. But now talking to you, I feel really bad ask because it's almost like I targeted the most important aspect of health first. Yeah, well, that's why I wrote lights out all those years ago, because I thought if I could make people understand how the world works, then we would drill down on things like press cancer or prostate cancer or reproduction or, you know, but first you have to understand what you're a part of. Right. Nobody did nobody did everybody's cut off. I mean, I think it says on the book, if you could have better health with just the flick of a switch, you know, turn the light off. Check to it. Just pretty simple. Record, record stuff for tomorrow. Make a better plan. Don't work late. Get up earlier. Start again. Just do it different because you're really not gambling with your health. You're wasting your currency for quality of life. Yeah, I guess you're saying your currency is time. Yep. Yeah, that's crazy. You just got to go to bed. Simple as that. Yep. Awesome. Well, I guess we should finish up, but it's been awesome talking to you. Can you tell people obviously your book lights out? I mean, it's 14 years old, but I bought it. So people could still go buy that and well, I've been asked to do another version of it and updated because all of the things that I predicted in there and bench science, molecular biology and chemistry and, and a little bit of genomics. There wasn't much that has come to pass in clinical evidence, you know, in large study. So I've been asked to update the references and modernize it a little bit. I'll get to it eventually. So there's lights out, creeps, sugar and survival. That's time and just and then there's sexualized menopause. And that's Harper Collins. That's, you know, to hormones really cause breast cancer. No. Well, if estrogen caused breast cancer, all young women would be dead. So it's not high estrogen. It's estrogen falling off it, menopause because that's some breast cancer hits. So that's the thrust of that book. And die hard. You know, we're going to talk about can then really live without erections and that's the first thing to go. So then they have hard disease, you know, then the plumbing shot. Kidney dysfunction. If you can't get an erection, your heart's breaking. You know, it goes on like that. So we're going to work on that book. Talk about safe cancer. Yeah. Well, when that happens, you have my email now. So let's get in contact again in this again. I will. I let you know it'll be in the next year. I'm working on it now. So boners are important. Boners are important. I actually wanted a chapter called let's talk to you, but you know, they don't have that kind of sense of humor. So yes, boners are important. Gary, come forth. They are the reason to be a man. That's my brand new born baby boys reach right out and grab the deck, you know, everybody's aware. There's no question about it. Yep. Well, I found out testosterone peaks while you're in rim sleep, too, which is pretty interesting. That's right. That's right. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Because everything's rehearsal in your brain, you know? Yep. Awesome. You dream about it. You dream about it. Yeah. Okay. And your body responds. Followed with great speed with you, Evan. Thanks for the show. I really appreciate it. Anytime. Give me a call. Yeah. This was fun. That was a fast hour. So, maybe my time perceptions off due to too much artificial light, but I don't think so. Yeah. I don't think so either. It was an hour. All right. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks. All right. Thank you. Bye, bye. All right. Thanks again. That was TS Wiley author of Lights Out. One of my favorite books. And for my action guide, rim rehab, and my four hours of interviews that come with the package now, you get the action guide, the audio book version of it, and then you get the four hours of interviews. For the month of June, I'm going to give 20% off the podcast listeners just because. So if you use the coupon code rim, REM, 20, you get 20% off. So go check it out. It may be the time for you to pick it up. And then if you want to leave a review for the show on iTunes, that would be awesome. I know it's easy to listen to me and not do it, but it really does help out. And if I can get one out of 20,000 people to write a review, that's good enough. I at least like to see at least a couple reviews a week. So if you want to be that special person, that would be cool. That's about all I got for you. So check those out and talk to you next week. Take care of yourself. Bye. [MUSIC]