T.I. & Craig Petties Talk Cartel Ties, 9 Life Sentences and a Second Chance

this is expeditiously i am tilt ti have uh-huh now the following experience is not a test the conversations and stories expressed on this podcast are meant to be an expression of purpose and truth this show properly entitled expeditiously is a free exchange of ideas and opinions no judgment no preconceived beliefs no fear you're encouraged to share your thoughts and ask any question as long as it's done with respect and that's through true love and respect for others that we will change the world and speak truth to power one show at a time now without further ado this is expeditiously i'm tilt one of the biggest drug dealers in america once based right here in memphis his name is craig pettis for those who don't know the biggest drug lord in america at one time connected to that cartel in mexico seal team six's efforts to find craig pettis and the mexico drug lord el chapo what truly elevated pettis to an international powerhouse was his direct relationship with the highest echelons of the mexican cartel system el chapo is the most powerful drug lord in the world and his ties to the mid-south are rooted in south memphis pettis is currently serving nine life sentences in federal prison for murder conspiracy and drug trafficking i shall welcome to expeditiously i'm your host tip harris uh on today's show uh we're gonna introduce a memphis legend to the world man uh not many people have heard from him personally i believe this is his first and only interview that he's ever done publicly uh a young man by the name of craig pettis uh craig pettis also known as little dude he grew up in memphis tennessee went on to become a century figure in a large-scale drug trafficking organization that according to federal authorities distributed cocaine and other narcotics across multiple states in the 90s and the early 2000s investigators say his operation developed connections with suppliers linked domestic cartels expanding both its reach and complexity over time as law enforcement pressure increased pettis became a fugitive and was eventually placed on the fbi's 10 most wanted fugitive list after several years on the run he was arrested in 2008 in mexico and later extradited to the united states the case was the result of a lengthy multi-agency investigation involving federal and international cooperation including efforts by drug enforcement administration in 2013 pettis pled guilty to multiple federal charges including drug trafficking and involvement in violent crime connected to his organization he was sentenced to life in prison there's always a story behind the story and the day we will be exploring that now before we get to talk to uh the craig himself man we're gonna speak to his daughter her name is britain and we also gonna speak to his partner his name ace uh so we're gonna welcome brittany ace and later on craig to the show what's happening y'all hey what's happening all right all right uh ace man me and you we know each other uh we was uh we was he was in similar circumstances as a little dude just not as long right yeah uh and and you know i was uh i was you know i was there for a very short period of time and you approached me and asked me some you know that was probably the only the only time i had been asked that question now uh you remember what you had um the first thing now you remember what you had me uh about craig oh yes i do um how can we make this visual yeah basically he walked up to me saying how do you turn somebody's life into a movie how you turn somebody's life story into a movie and you know i was i was taken aback by that because you know i knew how much time you had i was like man you think about making movies you know what i'm saying and then um and so we we began to chop it up again i gave you a list of things to do and you know what i'm saying you all checked out check them off the list and and what what what made you think that craig's life uh would make a good movie man uh america's most wanted the john walsh episode uh when they when they he was on american morning yes he was uh um when i saw john walsh the american most wanted and that was like february 2006 yeah this is this you know and then i knew the back story i said this this store right here gonna be you know what i'm saying and after that we we talked it got even more crazy you know what i'm saying so i knew then it was gonna be yeah something that we're seeing now let me ask you this uh how you how you were creating no joke uh we go back high school days uh from in the riverside i'm i'm from south memphis and he from south memphis um so we go back kid area way before any of us took off and went to that race yeah speaking of that direction so you you you know you did your thing over in that world and so and you also knew he was doing his thing um what do you think is what is there to learn from a young man in the ghetto having ambition setting his sights on greater things you know what i'm saying what you think that way is that way ain't the way i know it seems like that's the only way but it's got to be another way for you because it ain't gonna do it will sit you back that would be my biggest admiration you know what i'm saying it's gonna set you back farther than you yeah i mean um tell me something when you knew when when did you know that he had that he he he he caught his stride when i knew he was able to buy stuff work um on a larger scale like out of nowhere what you mean be specific oh if i had to be specific he started buying bricks and on a larger scale from before he became a connect himself yeah i saw his strides like he buying 10 now whoa you know yeah he's buying 29 cash yeah that's when i you know i didn't know the specifics of it you know he was doing this time i'm doing my thing but when i when i heard he was buying that much from someone i know like he catching you out for it you know yeah and you told me how organized this was in the early 90s right you were telling me how organized he was you know what i'm saying i you know he always paid to pay the money on time and i always kept your stuff you know saying business straight you know what i mean yes yeah um don't you think that those qualities can also be that's that's a that's a part of someone's personality you know what i'm saying being being organized and being you know just about your business in a certain way that's a part of your personality that ain't really nothing you gotta want to do that yeah yeah yeah they're good characteristics to um to be a stand-up guy and and you know make the right decision going that way with some people that's not nice right now britney you here and uh we rarely hear from um the children of the people who find themselves in them in these situations we rarely hear you know how you how you affect it so can you recall your your earliest memory of your dad is so my dad used to take us to mason park we had uh liberty land back then he used to take me my sisters and his friend kids too okay he used to take out his trick-or-treat and we stayed in um when he stayed in vegas we used to have this big old theater he used to look scared of the worst okay and so so you just you just knew him and dad yeah that's all right man that's all right did you ever did you ever know you know why he wasn't around when he wasn't so of course my mom and my grandma told me so what did they tell you i knew what they just told me you know what he did but as far as i know from him he was a dad he owned trucks and he was a construction worker okay all right man how do you think uh his incarceration has impacted your sisters you and your sister so well far as far as me like i um struggled a little bit in school when he first when he first got caught right so my sixth grade year i was at school for a couple of weeks because he affected me real bad right and um like my dad went there for my graduation like big moments like it really affected me everybody else had their dad but my dad went there of course he he raised me mean in jail right so I was he was still there one phone call away right there and um and when I got engaged he wasn't there but of course he called me right so he gave his little speech but I've been I've been strong with that again yeah what was what you think your connection with your dad is like now oh that's my best friend right on um do you like do you do you still talk to him on the like on the daily about you know the things you're going through and still get advice and stuff from him oh yeah talk to him every day don't miss don't miss a day man that was so I hate to see you know I'm saying so many of our I get our children being raised you know you know what I'm saying so many of our I get our children being raised you know what I'm saying over the phone because that kind of how I grew up too and when my dad or my uncle you know and I had to you know wait till he called if I needed to ask him something you know it really it weighed it weighed on the it weighed on the children as well yeah yeah I can understand that um let me see if your dad will release tomorrow what you think the first thing y'all will do I'm gonna spend so much time together I'm just gonna give him the longest hug ever what's up hey man tell me what you recall as far as the the height of little dude career what you think what do you think the moment well you know everybody who knew him knew he was on top of his game I guess when every crime happened in Memphis like even Lorenzen Wright which he had nothing to do with everything that happened they were saying he did it well like he was getting the blame for everything every every somebody gets shot somebody get killed though and Craig Petty did what yeah he was getting the blame for a lot of stuff that he didn't he wouldn't even miss that thing well and then when ages was it was terrorizing to get them like they wanted in Italy you had to get out of jail free car you knew anything about so it was you know your mom was getting harassed um it was bad it was bad you know he had all the attention the news everywhere at Memphis in this Mississippi around all those areas he just got all the coverage in you know the manhunt for him for like a six year was horrible so a man for six years yeah I ain't never heard I don't think I heard of too many people man being on the road for that long I don't think I heard of too many people man being on the road for that long I can't think of anything who who it might it may be you know I'm not saying I'm just telling people that I know a person oh yeah I know a person he's the only one that I you know person you could hear about some historians though I mean Frank Matthew technically still on Frank Matthew like you know what I'm saying like one of those people yeah you know from the sequence from the 70s 70s yeah one of those but this era of how they were looking for him yeah and continue to do what he was doing able to run it why on the road and they looking for him and they looking for him right it was um I never see what about cash amount you know Sam what you think what you think the Empire a match to at his height their Vegas house was what house in Vegas I was just alone okay what I remember when I okay so if I had I can't just you know but what I saw was the last time I saw was in Miami hmm and the SL 500 was do you remember you probably had it too no no before it came out it was a list for you had to be I wonder when they change the baddest when they change their body style nobody had their car mm-hmm I see him in Miami pull up on me what's up hmm how you get this car so I knew then you had you know like you pay somebody just to get on the list yeah to skip them on a list to buy the car so you skip you pay somebody to get the car not alone but you thank you thank you you thank you hundreds of millions I couldn't personally the operation and how many bricks they were getting at that time I couldn't I got to say the hundreds okay well we out of the thing today I think that I believe that I believe the story interest me more so because it is so unheard ain't nobody really talking about it don't nobody really speak on it you know I'm saying of course we have although we got like the cocaine cowboys did you hear a lot of back and of course you got being a male from each if you hear a lot of back you know you got so many others but you don't hear none of our creed you know you got so many of those but you don't hear none of our creed you know you got so many of those but you don't hear none of our creed you know you got so many of those but you don't hear none of our creed yeah it was actually not a yeah it was actually not a yeah it was actually not a cartel member yeah the only the only black man cartel member yeah the only the only black man cartel member yeah the only the only black man who's been inside the Golden Triangle who's been inside the Golden Triangle who's been inside the Golden Triangle it's great yeah in the head did that it's great yeah in the head did that it's great yeah in the head did that happen and bring you can bring you gonna happen and bring you can bring you gonna happen and bring you can bring you gonna get on the car you don't you gonna get get on the car you don't you gonna get get on the car you don't you gonna get on the car you don't you gonna talk to him on the car you don't you gonna talk to him on the car you don't you gonna talk to him later okay okay has it time is it time later okay okay has it time is it time later okay okay has it time is it time since he's been down you know as he had since he's been down you know as he had since he's been down you know as he had a hard time like you know does he feel a hard time like you know does he feel a hard time like you know does he feel like you know he he still kind of the like you know he he still kind of the like you know he he still kind of the same as you would when I he's not saying same as you would when I he's not saying same as you would when I he's not saying he needs a different man right now he he needs a different man right now he he needs a different man right now he is so he didn't look like he see me his is so he didn't look like he see me his is so he didn't look like he see me his little programs him in store yeah like little programs him in store yeah like little programs him in store yeah like he he changed man that's a blessing he he changed man that's a blessing he he changed man that's a blessing every little lesson man I think so how every little lesson man I think so how every little lesson man I think so how can you get our audience help man I know can you get our audience help man I know can you get our audience help man I know you got working on the petition you get you got working on the petition you get you got working on the petition you get them to give them some to give us some them to give them some to give us some them to give them some to give us some relief and encourage how can we relief and encourage how can we relief and encourage how can we encourage people to reach out directly encourage people to reach out directly encourage people to reach out directly to to sign the petition so the website to to sign the petition so the website to to sign the petition so the website we have right now is free creepies they we have right now is free creepies they we have right now is free creepies they can either go to free credit paintings can either go to free credit paintings can either go to free credit paintings or they can go to change that war okay or they can go to change that war okay or they can go to change that war okay free create pay this calm or change free create pay this calm or change free create pay this calm or change that book everybody want to sign the that book everybody want to sign the that book everybody want to sign the petition I said you know I mean I put it petition I said you know I mean I put it petition I said you know I mean I put it up I said now what would you say to the up I said now what would you say to the up I said now what would you say to the people ace who say you know they might people ace who say you know they might people ace who say you know they might they might be against how would you how they might be against how would you how they might be against how would you how would you speak to you sign in the would you speak to you sign in the would you speak to you sign in the petition they don't believe a second petition they don't believe a second petition they don't believe a second chance man well I think everybody chance man well I think everybody chance man well I think everybody deserves grace you're right you know deserves grace you're right you know deserves grace you're right you know that's what I most definitely would say that's what I most definitely would say that's what I most definitely would say everybody deserves a second chance who everybody deserves a second chance who everybody deserves a second chance who serious about a chain I'm feeling yeah serious about a chain I'm feeling yeah serious about a chain I'm feeling yeah right as he doesn't you know accomplished right as he doesn't you know accomplished right as he doesn't you know accomplished so much in the wrong way yeah you know so much in the wrong way yeah you know so much in the wrong way yeah you know why not try the right way and that's why not try the right way and that's why not try the right way and that's real I'm signing a petition right now real I'm signing a petition right now real I'm signing a petition right now that wasn't hard at all so yeah go to that wasn't hard at all so yeah go to that wasn't hard at all so yeah go to change change that or and sign a change change that or and sign a change change that or and sign a petition for create and so he'll be petition for create and so he'll be petition for create and so he'll be calling and we're gonna hear from little calling and we're gonna hear from little calling and we're gonna hear from little dude himself for the first time ever dude himself for the first time ever dude himself for the first time ever right here on expedition called the right here on expedition called the right here on expedition called the Craig Pettus gang a cancer to the Craig Pettus gang a cancer to the Craig Pettus gang a cancer to the community the gang ran a multi-million community the gang ran a multi-million community the gang ran a multi-million dollar business of distributing cocaine dollar business of distributing cocaine dollar business of distributing cocaine in the Mid South North and South in the Mid South North and South in the Mid South North and South Carolina's Florida and Mexico Carolina's Florida and Mexico Carolina's Florida and Mexico was bringing in roughly around 500 was bringing in roughly around 500 was bringing in roughly around 500 kilograms of cocaine on the monthly kilograms of cocaine on the monthly kilograms of cocaine on the monthly basis the removal of Craig Pettus has basis the removal of Craig Pettus has basis the removal of Craig Pettus has severely restricted the flow of cocaine severely restricted the flow of cocaine severely restricted the flow of cocaine into the city the drug scene is still into the city the drug scene is still into the city the drug scene is still in the state and correct Pettus ordered in the state and correct Pettus ordered in the state and correct Pettus ordered his associates to torture and then kill his associates to torture and then kill his associates to torture and then kill Turner's son Marcus Pettus pleaded Turner's son Marcus Pettus pleaded Turner's son Marcus Pettus pleaded guilty to drug trafficking racketeering guilty to drug trafficking racketeering guilty to drug trafficking racketeering money laundering and former this is the money laundering and former this is the money laundering and former this is the largest drug case ever in Tennessee largest drug case ever in Tennessee largest drug case ever in Tennessee has destroyed so many lives this has destroyed so many lives this has destroyed so many lives this organization and the criminal acts that organization and the criminal acts that organization and the criminal acts that were committed by this enterprise were were committed by this enterprise were were committed by this enterprise were nothing less than a cancer to this nothing less than a cancer to this nothing less than a cancer to this community's last stop Memphis Tennessee community's last stop Memphis Tennessee community's last stop Memphis Tennessee his hometown the place where his hometown the place where his hometown the place where authorities say he began his climb to authorities say he began his climb to authorities say he began his climb to the top of the drug trade you can see the top of the drug trade you can see the top of the drug trade you can see heavily armed agents surrounding him as heavily armed agents surrounding him as heavily armed agents surrounding him as he's put in the back of an armored he's put in the back of an armored he's put in the back of an armored vehicle from the private airfield he's vehicle from the private airfield he's vehicle from the private airfield he's driven to federal court a place driven to federal court a place driven to federal court a place authorities have been trying to get authorities have been trying to get authorities have been trying to get every year there's no question that this every year there's no question that this every year there's no question that this is the most notorious most is the most notorious most is the most notorious most reprehensible drug trafficking reprehensible drug trafficking reprehensible drug trafficking organization that this community organization that this community organization that this community throughout Western that's why judge throughout Western that's why judge throughout Western that's why judge Samuel Mays gave Craig Pettis not one Samuel Mays gave Craig Pettis not one Samuel Mays gave Craig Pettis not one but nine life sentences the multiple but nine life sentences the multiple but nine life sentences the multiple murders a ton of drugs and countless murders a ton of drugs and countless murders a ton of drugs and countless wives ruined now there's always a story wives ruined now there's always a story wives ruined now there's always a story behind the story and the day we'll be behind the story and the day we'll be behind the story and the day we'll be exploring it please welcome to the show exploring it please welcome to the show exploring it please welcome to the show Craig Pettis what's handling dude what's Craig Pettis what's handling dude what's Craig Pettis what's handling dude what's going on with you right man ain't a going on with you right man ain't a going on with you right man ain't a whole lot to it man uh uh I mean been whole lot to it man uh uh I mean been whole lot to it man uh uh I mean been hearing a lot about you for a long time hearing a lot about you for a long time hearing a lot about you for a long time man it's good to just you know say I man it's good to just you know say I man it's good to just you know say I finally get connected I want to know if finally get connected I want to know if finally get connected I want to know if I can air man so how did I How did all this start for you? That's a very long answer there, man. Well, what did. The short and simple answer it is. Yeah. The short and simple answer it is, I'm going to just say, man, I was a youngster at the time, man. I was trying to get help from my family, man. And to be honest with you, I really couldn't get as big as it did, to tell you the truth. Right on. Man, I heard a lot from people who know you, you know what I'm saying? We have a mutual acquaintance. And they always talk about, you know, how different it was, how much of a difference it was between you and the other people who did the same stuff that you did, how you carried yourself, you know, with a lot more maturity and sophistication. Like, where do you think that came from? It actually came from, you know, the guys that I was, you know, came up under, you know, the older guys, you know, and I actually, you know, kind of looked up through here and there and stuff, you know, as they. It kind of got me the ways that I went through when I was out there. Right on. When you was a youngster, man, did you have dreams and goals? You know, did you set out to do something aside from what you ended up doing? Yeah, I actually did. You know, I got. Actually, to tell you the truth, the dreams that I had, it actually got determined. It wasn't a hope in another way. Like I said, when I was a youngster, I always wanted to come up, you know, I seen the guys that had 18-wheeler trucks, and this and that. I kind of wanted to get my own 18-wheeler company going, you know. I had a mind to go on a straight path, you know, I just got, you know, got sidetracked and all the midst of it. Right on, man. Well, I mean, man, coming up in Memphis, that's a hell of a struggle, you know what I'm saying? What can you say to the youngsters that's coming up right now, you know what I'm saying? What would you have to say to them? What you feel like, what kind of game would you pan down to them if you could talk to them? At the street, like, it's not the way to go. You know, my story could be a prime example. You know, how about, you know, going their way, you know, in the streets, how everything could turn bad for you. They can, you know, you're chasing the fame and glory and the money, the fast money, you know, and in the end, it's the dark side of it, you know what I'm saying? This is, it always is bad, you know, and two ways, here or, you know, somewhere where you'll never be seen again. Right on. Man, speaking of that, tell me, when had you, when could you tell yourself that shit had then got out of hand, that it was out of control? When I realized that things had got out of hand, when I saw how it was affecting my family, that's when it became real to me. People I love was paying the price for my decisions. It's something I can't never ignore. Right on. Man, I hear a lot, I hear a lot, I hear a lot of people, you know what I'm saying, talk about how big they do it in the game and you know how much of this and how much of that they had. Man, we hear, of course, we hear a lot of people, you know what I'm saying, talk about how big they do it in the game and you know how much of this and how much of that they had. What would you say is your, what would you consider your height in that area of your profession? What would you say the height was? I'm going to be honest. I understand why people are asking me that. of people I asked there. There's nothing really to celebrate about it. What I did caused a lot of harm to a lot of people out there, including my own family. I take responsibility for that, of course, you know, and my focus now is on growth, accountability, and using my story to help others make better choices. Right. Well, in my research, man, I've seen, you know, you showed how smart you was by how you was able to kind of, you know, throw people off your path, man. How you think you was able to get down on the people that get away for so long? Well, you know, I had the cartel behind me, and at the same time, you know, we had a high-level Mexican officials that was on the payroll that was giving us intel. So people might hear things like, you know, you know, you're a real professional, you're a real professional, you're a real professional, you're a real professional, you're a real professional. And I think it means power and control. But the truth is, it's the opposite. A lot of strides, isolation, constantly looking over your shoulder. Not a life I'm proud of. And it's not one I ever encouraged. Yeah. Right on. Now, what would you have to say about trolling? Like people on the internet, man, how they become a thing. How so many people bring your names up in the conversation. How would you like to set the record straight from your own mouth? I don't agree with trolling at all. But I can see that's just the nature of the internet today. After my name coming up in conversations, I can't control what people say. Hopefully, most of it comes from people that don't even know me or my story. That's why I decided to speak today. Let it be known, I'm more focused on purpose, not false rumors or opinions. Yeah, that's real. And speaking of your story, man, you know what I'm saying? You decided to share your story with us. You know what I'm saying? And we're working hard on, you know what I'm saying, putting it to the light so we can definitely get it out there, man, for the world to see that, you know, that you're more than what people say about you. That what you became is more important than what you were. You know what I mean? Of course. Of course. That's most definitely what I want to get out there. Right on. Right on. I'm just trying to get a second chance, you know what I'm saying, in life out there, man, if it's possible. Yeah, I can dig it. So what's your current interest, man? What you're reading, what you're doing now, man, you know what I'm saying, to feel your spirit? Well, to be honest with you, I actually have been trying to work hard dealing with this petition thing, man, trying to, you know, get it going and, you know, get some little tracking behind it in different places, different states and cities and stuff. My daughter just went to a town hall meeting weeks ago, you know, and did a speech on my behalf. You know, I got a couple other things to do. I got a couple other things to do. I got a couple other things partners out there is actually pushing for me as well. Trying to get as much signature as I can. Like I said, for anyone that believes in second chances and fairness, you know, I got a petition out there. And if they believe that, man, I hope they'll take a moment and read it. And if it speaks to them, support it by signing. Okay, where can they find it? Well, you know, you can go on, I think it's on chain.org or you can go to my website. Okay, we'll find that. We'll get all the info from Brittany, man. Is there anything that you want to discuss that we ain't already chopped up yet? That's about it, man. I just wanted to touch a little basic, you know what I'm saying? I didn't want to go deep into details. I'll probably say that for another time, you know, so I can get on with you. But, you know, right now, I just want to kind of let it be known what I'm on right now, you know. And how, you know, I'm trying to change for the better, man. Yeah, that's what's up. That's what's up. I know you had a real close connection with your mom, man. And I know she was a real big part of your life and how spiritual she guided you, man. And I feel like that's going to have a lot to do with the outcome. You feel me? Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, me and my mom, we got a real close relationship, you want to know. Real close. Yeah, y'all still talk? Yeah, yeah. I talk to all my family members. That's actually who I, that's actually get me through this. Yeah. It's my connection to my family. My mom, my kids and stuff. Right on. How old you were when you first became a dad? I was 20. I was 20. You? Yeah, I was 20. I was 11. You remember how it felt when you found out you were going to be a father? Man, whoa. I don't know, my head was kind of spinning. I knew I hit my head. This call is from a federal prison. I said, it's time to get it together for myself. I got a little one I got to bring up. Right on, man. Man, well, you know, people out here, man, we got a lot of belief in your ability, man, to bow back, you know what I'm saying, and show the world that how much improvement can be done when you decide to dedicate yourself to something. Yeah, for sure. A lot of improvement can be done. I've been taking a lot of little different programs and one of the programs I was kept back as a graduate to help mentor other participants that came in, to help guide them in a different route in life. Right on. Well, you know, in my firm belief that people who run organizations that end up in places like where you are, if they focus their same talent and attention. Yeah, for sure. I got a little one I got to lead a little bit of a different life. Yeah, for sure. It's actually, that's a real old story. stores especially how i went down there and all that i'm telling you like when i went down there they were like they had heard about me there's several other people they're like hey this is y'all still there they got a whole lot of money he can do this he can do that and and and they just sent for me and i ain't no going down there crossing the border and one thing just went from another just like well hey look here you best you've been vouched for through this person they like whatever you want to do right on and and and it was did you did you feel like like you like you know what i'm saying like the game had changed at that point oh yeah it did yeah it changed an amazing way it really did because it put me on the scale where i was out doing everyone else yeah and we we hear a lot of stories about a lot of you know what i'm saying about other people that were doing their thing at the time but you know you you this your first interview you ain't never really spoke on you ain't never really spoke on your time you know that you spent you know doing your thing you did that on purpose yeah i really to be honest you know i i'm still fighting to get out to get out of prison you know what i'm saying so you know i really didn't want to speak on a lot of things and still don't you know like i'm fighting for my freedom that right you know so i i want to get out there and make it look like i'm actually glorifying things because that's something that i kind of put behind me you know and all these things is what i have done in the past you know what i'm saying me now is it's a totally different person so you know i i kind of try to avoid getting caught up in stuff like this yeah i can i can dig that man i was talking to britney man uh i was talking to her about uh her connection with you and how you know she she said you still her best friend can can can you talk to me uh and all the fathers about how you set your mind to continue in the state prison and your children your family life like what what you what you thought of to do right now from here best thing i actually do is it's kind of be that a father and a friend to them you know and get them the best fights i can you know i can't be there personally to be out there and help them guide them through certain little situations that they might go through down the road in life you know but but i can i get on the most best advice i can from right here while i'm fit yeah yeah man what you uh do you do you like do you you watch tv do you do any of that play chess how you spend your time yeah i actually i call myself the best chess player here in the prison okay almost two decades so you know i think i ran into maybe two people one of them he was like a grand wizard on the street a mouth grand mouse or something like that yeah but it was like one other guy ran into that kind of gave me a problem but other than that i'm like the best chess player here but i don't really watch a lot of tv though you know so i kind of work out more you know and i just kind of be to myself you know what i'm saying right on you know uh i i came to know about you uh through your partner uh ace you know we were we were we were down together and you know what i'm saying he was telling me about you know y'all y'all kicking it in high school man you remember old ace yeah yeah yeah well there was multiple memories i can't forget them yeah man yeah he told me y'all were locked up together and stuff yeah man we you know what i'm saying he you know he called he called himself the best chair player on the compound man over in forest city close to it if i ain't i'll let him hold that title until i get there yeah man um my god man yeah man you know what i'm saying he definitely told me i had a genuine contract with him yeah man you know what i'm saying he definitely told me i had a genuine connection man he definitely did yeah he also he also told me what you like what you had said you know about uh uh how you felt when you when you had like when you had a conversation with what's his name uh agent wallace what is collins oh collins college is it college yeah yeah yeah yeah when like how how he is what is collins college is it college yeah yeah yeah when like how how he is said his sights on you all of a said his sights on you all of a said his sights on you all of a sudden he said he said my face for me through uh he said he said my face for me through uh he said he said my face for me through uh some guys named uh bow handlers yeah and some guys named uh bow handlers yeah and some guys named uh bow handlers yeah and the bowhander composer told them about the bowhander composer told them about the bowhander composer told them about me yeah that's what you say he said that me yeah that's what you say he said that me yeah that's what you say he said that he really didn't know about me and today he really didn't know about me and today he really didn't know about me and today he was targeting them for what i know he was targeting them for what i know he was targeting them for what i know and and and and they spoke up on me to get out and they spoke up on me to get out and they spoke up on me to get out this situation this situation this situation yeah yeah yeah it seemed like it always happened that it seemed like it always happened that it seemed like it always happened that way way way this call is from a federal prison this call is from a federal prison this call is from a federal prison how many how many games of chess you how many how many games of chess you how many how many games of chess you play a day bro play a day bro play a day bro beyond i actually stopped playing the beyond i actually stopped playing the beyond i actually stopped playing the guy in here because it's like it's guy in here because it's like it's guy in here because it's like it's it's too easy i got two reasons but i really ain't i got two reasons but i really ain't i got two reasons but i really ain't been playing been playing been playing you know it's like it's like it's not you know it's like it's like it's not you know it's like it's like it's not fair almost so you beat the old heads fair almost so you beat the old heads fair almost so you beat the old heads too too too yes the guys here they call me one of yes the guys here they call me one of yes the guys here they call me one of those yeah and so tell me about your yeah and so tell me about your yeah and so tell me about your programming man tell me about your programming man tell me about your programming man tell me about your programming uh your daughter told me programming uh your daughter told me programming uh your daughter told me about your mentoring and all the stuff about your mentoring and all the stuff about your mentoring and all the stuff you were doing how much you changed tell you were doing how much you changed tell you were doing how much you changed tell me tell me a little bit about your me tell me a little bit about your me tell me tell me a little bit about your programming and how you prepare programming and how you prepare programming and how you prepare all right well uh they got this thing all right well uh they got this thing all right well uh they got this thing that her called uh that her called uh that her called uh the challenge program it's like one of the challenge program it's like one of the challenge program it's like one of you one of the biggest ones in the usp i you one of the biggest ones in the usp i you one of the biggest ones in the usp i don't know if you're don't know if you're don't know if you're they had them in the meetings when you they had them in the meetings when you they had them in the meetings when you were there i don't know if they had on were there i don't know if they had on were there i don't know if they had on there or not no i was in the low there or not no i was in the low there or not no i was in the low now they ain't having them they had the now they ain't having them they had the now they ain't having them they had the drug program drug program drug program yeah well now there's something like yeah well now there's something like yeah well now there's something like that then there's something kind of that then there's something kind of that then there's something kind of basic the same way from what i'm hearing basic the same way from what i'm hearing basic the same way from what i'm hearing when when i was older i i ain't in and when when i was older i i ain't in and when when i was older i i ain't in and out but i was in it for like out but i was in it for like out but i was in it for like like good almost three years okay like good almost three years okay like good almost three years okay it's like a little step they make you it's like a little step they make you it's like a little step they make you don't think back on the things that you don't think back on the things that you don't think back on the things that you did you know saying all the ripple did you know saying all the ripple did you know saying all the ripple effects that happened that you caused in effects that happened that you caused in effects that happened that you caused in other people's lives you know they made other people's lives you know they made other people's lives you know they made me think about like how me think about like how me think about like how when i was sending drugs to all these when i was sending drugs to all these when i was sending drugs to all these different states and in cities i didn't different states and in cities i didn't different states and in cities i didn't know that i'm going down know that i'm going down know that i'm going down i didn't realize how i was harming i didn't realize how i was harming i didn't realize how i was harming people you know what i'm saying how far people you know what i'm saying how far people you know what i'm saying how far they know that that ripple effect was they know that that ripple effect was they know that that ripple effect was just spraying it out you know i might just spraying it out you know i might just spraying it out you know i might put drugs here in this city like like put drugs here in this city like like put drugs here in this city like like for example a lot of them and and i for example a lot of them and and i for example a lot of them and and i don't know about how don't know about how don't know about how people houses getting broken or people people houses getting broken or people people houses getting broken or people getting robbed getting robbed getting robbed those family members uh got their own my own family members stealing from stuff like that. Oh, this is ripple effect on the things that I was doing. You know, I'm sitting there, if I wouldn't put all that work down, those things like that might not even happen. So this stuff was happening. Like it brought a light to me to see how, for my ripple effect, you know what I'm saying, was spread out for the things I was doing. Made me look at things different. - Right. Man. And what were the, so what are the exercises? How do you challenge others that you mentor? How do you prepare, you know, to challenge them, to help them open their minds up? - Kind of get them to look at things though, like in a rational way sometimes. You know, I sit on down, like some of the guys that come in, there was like on game time or stuff like that, I talk to them and tell them about the things that I went through when I was out there when I was young. - Right. - You know what I'm saying? And how it led me into a certain direction. But if I was just thought different on certain situations, I might not even went this way. So I try to explain them that it's different areas of life that we can go to without actually having to go to the streets. All the time. - Right on. Man. Now, talk about, let's talk about like environment. Because most of us grew up in an environment like that's poverty stricken. So I find it, you know, I find it difficult 'cause when I'm mentoring, you know, people that come in, or, you know, people that tell me, it's easy for you to say it from where you at. How can we talk to people who still living in poverty and tell them how they could change the course of their direction and go on a different path? - Yes. I understand where you're coming from on that. That's actually, I don't say it's a hard one, but it is. I'm telling people from like, I came from that. - Right. When I grew up, my moms really didn't have a life. That would actually suck me to the streets. One day, I'm gonna share a story. One day when I was in the house, my mom said she had lost $50. And she said she couldn't, you know, pay the life bill that our lights went down. And I sat there and watched her, you know what I'm saying? Shed tears behind it, you know? And I'm at a young age, it was nothing I really could do. You know, my dad wanted to just me, my mom, my sister, and my niece, you know, she was raising them. And a couple days later, when I went to church, I see in a bulletin, she's asking the church for help, you know what I'm saying, to see if she can get out a life bill paid for, which they end up doing, and I'm grateful for it now. But that little situation, that led me to the streets. So I can kind of see how certain situations go on where people be misled in the wrong direction, you know what I'm saying. But even though it's, if I would have just stayed the course, because when I was in school, I actually wasn't a good person. I had good grades, I was doing real good. My mom would bring me up in Boy Scout and this and that, and I feel like if I would have just stayed in that race, I could have did good in any part of the area of life, you know what I'm saying, instead of being in the streets. I just had to stay the course, but I just got caught up in the streets. Right on. Man, can you tell me? Can you tell me about a time before you got, before you were arrested, a time before you fell and went to prison, a time where you were looking around and you just asked yourself, man, damn, how did I get here? It was plenty of times like that over there. It was plenty of times. It was a time like, something like that, when it really hit me like one time that they would follow me. And then the kids, when I first got older, in my first two years, I was living with my family, man, my family was living with me. But the DEA, they ended up realizing one of the schools that my kids was going to, so they ended up tracking me through them. But when I got word that they had spotted me and seen where I was, I had to go to another city. I ended up having to move. I had to move. I had to move. I had to move. I had to move my family to a whole other area that we didn't control. Because the areas that they felt like that we controlled, they was looking for them in those schools. So it was kind of hard for me, you know what I'm saying, with my kids, my family living in one state and I'm living in another. And I only saw them like on the weekends and holidays and during spring break. I said, I'm going to have my partner over there send a jet to go pick them up on the weekends and bring them. And I'm like, I'm going to have my partner over there send a jet to go pick them up on the weekends and bring them.