SYLVESTER STALLONE: “I Wasn’t Stupid. I Was Just Misunderstood.”

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Catch up on work with Wi-Fi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favorite podcast. Choose a cellar or northeast regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit Amtrak.com to plan your next trip. So one of my best memories growing up, and I don't have a lot of those, was actually watching Rocky with my dad. And my dad introduced me to the franchise. And I know this for sure. I've watched the Rocky franchise, including Five and Balboa after that, more than I've watched any other franchise in my lifetime. So I watch it back every year. There's only two things I watch to get motivated every year, and one of them is Rocky. Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate it. I thought you were going to ask for a refund. Okay, great. Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself, because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Sylvester Stallone, welcome to Amtrak. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. I want to start off by saying I don't get to start every interview this way. I've had the fortune of interviewing lots of incredible people, people who've achieved amazing things, done amazing things. I'm glad that you get to sit down with one of your personal heroes. I wanted to ask you, you start this book telling us about the fortune teller. And I wanted to know why you start there. Why do you tell us what's about to happen? I just think there's more things happening in the universe than we tend to give credit to. And I was at the very lowest level. I'm at that age of what everyone's trying to find themselves in. And I think we have about three or four major crossroads that we have. And that's one that comes around 21 years old, 20, that you go, what am I going to do? What am I going to be? How do I find the right path? What's going to trigger my journey? And as I was walking down this gravel road in the mountains, I see it like, I said, it looks like the sign of a gypsy or something like fortune. You saw a hand, there's some lines up here. It's either a bathroom to wash your hands or it's a gypsy, one of the two. So I went in there and I said, well, I'm going to get in there. And sure enough, it was like a real gypsy. And she spoke broken English and she said things that came true years later. And I went, oh my God. So I've always believed from that moment on, even though I was born Catholic, you know, I went through the whole process of theology, but sometimes as you get older, you bring in the question, you know, what is God? What is the future? What is this? What is that? Yet we'll listen to a fortune teller. Yeah, but sometimes we don't believe the church, but we'll believe some person in a little shack. Well, I did at that time and I wrote down everything and I would say 80% came true. Right to the T. They said, well, what they do is don't do comedy. They were right about that. But also a woman will bring you into the circle of attention. And that was a woman named Jane Oliver, who picked me out of this for some odd reason. I had nothing going for me, but she says, you have it. I guess I know because I felt I met people like Dustin Hoffman or whatever. And I, some people just have this thing. And then also you will be famed by 1975, 76, which is what Rocky came and so on and so forth. So there's many of these situations that, came about from her talking to me in the mountains. But luckily I was writing everything down at that time, which I think is important. I think if people jot down their thoughts when they're very early and reflect back on them 20 to 30, 40 years later, they'll be quite astounded at how astute they were back then. Because I think when you're young, you're just, you're a sponge and you're looking for some kind of pathway, doorway, a key, that triggers a, a pathway. And that's what happened with me. It was just a thing that triggered it. And I never looked back. What was the 20% that didn't come through? Well, it said be married three times. I go, how do you know? I mean, that's pretty bold statement. They said you were protected by some actor from beyond who had dark hair. I'm going, that's just about everybody. I couldn't take that one too seriously. I would say just about, they all came true. Even he said, always remember that, uh, number two and four will be your lucky numbers. And sure enough, everything, even when I use on my, on my, uh, Instagram or whatever, it's, it's like 22, 20. It's whatever that number seems. When I go to a hotel, it's always room 22. Whoa, this is good and bad. Next time I see 22, I hope it's not on like, you know, like a bad omen. But yeah, there's certain things that just, to, to trail people around, everyone's going to want the number of this, uh, fortune teller now. Oh my God. It's 50 years ago. Did you ever get back in touch with her during? No, no, I should. You know, I should. There's a few things like that, that I truly regret, like not meeting certain people like Charlie Chaplin or Elvis. And I was invited and I was too shy. Wow. I was too shy to meet Elvis. Can you imagine? Wow. When did that happen? 1976 when Rocky came out, he invited me to Tennessee, to his home and to go to a local theater and watch Rocky with him alone. That's incredible. And that's unbelievable. And so I go, people, please don't live with these regrets that I live with when opportunity like this, even though you may, Oh, I have a head cold, go. I don't care if you're not feeling well, go. That surprises me though, because when we read your book, we see you be someone who is always trying, always pushing. What was it about that particularly that made you shy? What was I going to say to Elvis? Would I be tongue tied? And I know I wouldn't be once I got there. Like I feel very at ease right now, much to your credit. Thank you. But back then I just felt like whenever I would meet Muhammad Ali, whatever I go on now, they don't want to talk to me. And then I ended up becoming great friends with him. I even used his house in Rocky three. That was his home, his furniture, his everything. That was when I hadn't conquered fear. You know, the embarrassment they say that perhaps one of the most, I'm using the word forbidding, but the things that people are so afraid of is public speaking worse than spiders, public speaking. And I've been through that, but I found once I got up there, I'll go, what am I hiding from? We're all basically made of the same element. No one's better than anyone else. Their, their, their experiences may be, but primarily we're consistent of the same elements, you know, flesh and blood. So what makes me afraid of that person when he hasn't threatened me or anything else? Why not just go out there and sure enough, once you let it out, it's kind of like boxing. And it's true. I've sparred a few times. And as soon as you get hit one time, your fear goes out the window and now survival comes in, you know, play. You sort of adapt at that moment. Same thing as once you walk out there, you go, this is not so bad after all. of On Purpose is presented to you by Mazda. Peace of mind doesn't happen by chance. It's created through the habits we build before we ever need them. That's the philosophy behind every Mazda. With proactive safety features that help keep you more aware, more connected, and more engaged, Mazda helps you feel ready for whatever the road brings. It's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' Safest New Car Brand. And as of July 2026, Mazda has won more 2026 IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus awards than any other car brand. I want to go backwards before we go forwards. Your life almost started with difficulty immediately. I mean, there were complications when you were born. Yeah. Speak to us about that. When you talk about in the book, that was something I wasn't as aware of with your story. And when I read about that, I was thinking, wow. And there's a part where you literally say, you go, this is what happened. This is how it felt. So be it. And kind of like, let's move on. And I was like, wow, that's really tough stuff. Can you walk us through what you experienced? Well, at a very early age, I think I was born to parents that really were not qualified to be parents. Because I think when you fully understand that this is now going to be your project forever is you're responsible for these people and the way they grew up and the way they perceive the world and how they adapt to the way you teach them. They are basically, as I've said it before, kind of like wet clay. You mold them. And if you mold them badly, that shape never quite evaporates. They have those dents and indentations. And so I grew up in that kind of situation where I was not wanted, not really appreciated. And I was looked at as a burden. And also, I believe, and they actually said it to my face, where you impeded on our life. You cost us our destiny. Our destiny would have been something else if you hadn't come along. And I go, that's probably quite true. And they somehow try to eliminate that factor by moving me into different areas. Like I lived in a boarding house. I didn't live with them for a while. They just moved me to this area in Queens, New York, where it was a transient house, where a salesman came in and this and that. So I was raised around adult people. And so I didn't really grow up around children. I've never been able to mingle with people my own age, at least up until, of course, as an adult, I was able to. But I never knew what playing was. And playing is actually more, it's another word for exploration. And I didn't explore. So I developed very late in life. And I think I still maintain that immaturity to this day, which I now welcome. The older I get, the more immature I get. There's an old saying where, you know, aging gracefully. Really? You ever seen a hundred-year-old stripper that's not aging gracefully? It's a 50-year-old boxer. It's not a pretty thing to see. So I covet the fact that I never became overly mature at an early age. I had a world that revolved around fantasy and make-believe and of your own doing, of your own invention. And that's where, I don't know where the writing came from. We'll talk about that later, but it was a lifesaver. But I think that all came from being immature and being lost in the world of make-believe. And I felt more comfortable. Reality to me was too real. I didn't like my reality at home. It was very painful, very offsetting, and also made me very aggressive. Thought that this is the way you treat people. You smack them around or you get smacked and you hit back. So I was a very physical, physical person, really physical. And, you know, and I grew up in a neighborhood called Hell's Kitchen, which was about as physical as its name. So that was almost the language. People related physically rather than verbally. In other words, it was your toughness and your boldness that was your calling card. Nice. Now your intellect. That's something that came as we moved on, hopefully. And I tell, you know, anyone can build muscles. Your brain is what your, your IQ, that's what you're born with. If you go to the finest school, you have a 95 IQ. It's going to be 95 when you graduate. That's it. It's not all of a sudden, you're not going to be Einstein. It doesn't work that way. And I found that out, that I was very physical, very combative, but I was also very, um, I just didn't want to deal with reality. So movies, cinema became my church. That's just where I worshiped and it paid off. When you look back, do you feel hearing those things growing up about your worth, your value? You talk about even almost having to apologize for being unplanned in the book. And I think how much of that do you look back and feel that really affected my confidence? It affected my self-worth or was the fight and the anger helping you break through it at the time? I think that comes with a more or less analytical endeavor. When you, as you get older, you, you become a bit more aware of that, but I think 100% it affects you. See people that words, break my bones, words. Yes, they will. Words are literally verbal bullets that will penetrate you, pierce you, scar your interior forever. You tell some kid like you, a young girl, young boy about their physical look when they're eight years old. Oh my God. They'll never forget that when they're 80, they'll quote you. They won't quote the other things, but they'll remember that because it's just your self-esteem is very, very fragile. They say like, um, like a woman's reputation, uh, is, is so fragile that once broken, it's never rep, reputable. You know, you just cannot put it back together. Well, I think that goes for all people. It's not just women. It's just all men. There's very, it's tough as we can be. I've seen, and I've been that way too. There's somewhere, if someone says the right thing, it hits a fragile thought was gone. He said, oh my God, I didn't think that would affect me anymore. It's there forever. The fact that I was treated so badly, and so it made me tough. That made me be able to stand up to what I was going to face at 22, 23, a complete rejection. I took rejection like as motivation. I didn't take it as setting me back. I said, I know who I am. More importantly, I know my faults. That's why I think a lot of people don't. They know, oh yeah, I'm really strong, but if you know your weaknesses, then you're really strong. A strong person knows his weaknesses. That's the ultimate in survival. I knew that earlier on because I was made aware of all my flaws or assumed flaws from a child, an early child. Yeah, I see you as an expert in rejection. I am. I'm like, you are an expert in rejection. You write beautifully in the book. You say, one of my favorite quotes I pulled out, rejection is your shadow at every step in this business. You have to find a way to make peace with it. I was thinking about that, and I was wondering, when you're such an expert at rejection, how do you make peace with being rejected? I feel it's probably the biggest challenge of today that everyone's facing, whether you're young, old. I feel like the world's moving at the fastest pace it ever has. People are experiencing rejection, chasing their passions, their dreams. When someone's going through that, how do they become an expert in rejection like you, and how do they make peace with it? I use, I guess you might say, a strategy called mirror therapy. I would actually talk to myself because I had so much time alone, and I spent so much time alone, that I would try to look at myself. Actually, when you're looking at yourself in the mirror, you're trying to find clarity in your eyes. I felt as though I knew, I was like talking to myself, giving myself my own therapy, which I thought was extraordinary. We usually seek other people to garner therapy from them, but if you learn to analyze yourself, then I made peace with it because I realized I knew my strengths, and I knew my weaknesses, so I realized why I would get rejected, okay? I didn't fit that image. You know when you're going for an audition, within 10 seconds, that person goes, "Hmm, Yeah, he's the right one. He's not the right one. Already, you've been judged. And so I realize that, oh, yeah, I'm going in for a cowboy who's six foot four. It's not going to work. So I go in there with the preparation that 99% of the time they're not going to choose me because they have a preconceived notion of what they want. So don't be so hard on yourself. You were not right for that part, but there will be one that you will connect with. And guess what? That didn't happen either. So I go, then you have to go to plan B. And sometimes failure is the greatest motivator. You got to have it inside. I mean, you got to have something inside. I don't know if everyone has it, but it's a combativeness. Like, I know I can do this. I'm going to be terrible. Terrible in the beginning. And I'm speaking about writing, which I find the most difficult of all the arts to perform. It's the most revealing and the most painful and perhaps the least gratifying because quite often you read what you've done and you go, this is horrible. But it felt like real brilliant at the time. But that failure forced me, meaning acting. I just was a type that was not presentable. It wasn't at that time that people were not really interested in my type. So I said, I got to do something on my own and began to investigate writing. And then I started developing other characters. But still, I didn't know how to write very well until I wrote about Edgar Allan Poe. Because what happened is you keep writing about yourself. Enough already. You know, it's like, it gets repetitive. So when you start writing about someone else, now you're focusing on that person. That person's personality. Once I did that, then I realized I'm ready to create a character from scratch. And that was called Rocky. Like literally, I know everyone saw me as a bully, as a thug, as this, as not a very, he doesn't look smart, so he must not be smart. And everyone was judging everyone. Because we do. We judge people. As soon as they walk into a room, we do a primary personality, I guess, readout of them. Primary impression. And then we do a primary personality. Series 12. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I know how important every hire is for a business. If you need to make the right hire, this is a job for Sponsored Jobs. Indeed Sponsored Jobs helps find quality candidates when you need them most. You can reach who you need based on whatever criteria you're looking for, like skills, certifications, or location. In fact, people are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 Sponsored Job credit at indeed.com forward slash podcast. That's indeed.com forward slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Saying, I made the right choice. I think that's what differentiates you as I'm listening to you. You were happy to start at being bad at what you did. You were okay at starting from a place of this may work, it may not work. I want to give it a go. I just want an opportunity. And I feel like that's what I'm missing today because I think nowadays everyone thinks, oh, you've got to launch something that's worth a billion dollars, or you've got to launch something that goes to the number one on the box office. There's such a pressure to be the best at everything that you're not happy being the worst or the first. And so you never start. No. And then if you never start, then you're never going to get to be the best. There's that famous Zig Ziglar quote of, you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great. Yeah, that's so true. And you were willing to start at the bottom wherever someone gave you a shot. Right. You know, I guess it's in the Bible, never put false gods before me. I never, and this will sound very egotistical. I never said, oh God, I want to be him. Mm-hmm. I, I, that person I covered with. Whatever. I, I, I said, no, you just got to be you and the best you can be. And if you're mediocre, so be it. That's it. You're mediocre. Or if you have something unusual, but I just never caught on to like, oh, wow, I want to be exactly like this person and talk like him and dress like him. No. And that helped you not having someone you were chasing actually helped you because there was no pressure. I think so. I've, I've, I'm always shocked. Oh yeah. I love this rock and roll singer. I've gone to 30 of his concerts. I go, why? Just buy the album, man. What are you, like, you trying to absorb him in a way? Are you trying to morph into him? I never quite got that. And I don't know if that's a plus or a negative, but don't try to be someone you're not. I mean, you're not going to be that person ever anyway. You're with my weaknesses, like make them stronger, not try to be that dude up there who's already made it. So how dare you presume now you're on that same path. You're not. You were offered $360,000 to not play Rocky, but you were adamant that you had to play Rocky. That's a lot of money. Why were you so adamant that you had to play Rocky? I had been told no so many times, rejected so many times. I never really ever fathomed being rich. I knew what it was like to be poor. I had mastered poorness. I had gotten that down to a sinus, so I was able to live on nothing. But I knew no matter how much, if this was going to be my gateway to heaven, if I sold it for money, I'm going to hell. This is exactly what the story was about is not being bribed. I almost looked at it as a bribe, but I know it sounds egotistical, but they didn't want me, so they continued to pay me. So are you bribing me? And I go, I just knew in my heart, if I sold this and this thing became successful, and this was what I had been building up to my whole life, I deserve the most miserable life. And I would have been miserable my whole life. I would have hated myself. I would have never understood the word, the meaning of happiness, because I had sold out. Even today, to sit there and imagine, we're imagining right now I'm watching TV and there is actor, number X doing a great job at it. And that could have been you. That's what you were built for. I mean, this whole trial and tribulation going this route and this and that and taking all these crazy challenges, they were leading up to this moment of will you or will you not crumble under the temptation of money? And it would have been a complete disaster. Yeah. What an experience to be writing about a character who's not going to be able to do that. And I think that's what I'm not distracted by temptation. And then to actually have to live it in your own life. That's a whole other book, isn't it? Yeah, that's a bad one. Was there ever in your life where you feel you did give in to temptation and it didn't? Oh yeah, no question. So I understood temptation and I got it, believe me. And sometimes I would have to take, like when I was in movies, taking tickets in a movie theater because I'm making $34 a week. And, you know, if you can pick up an extra $10, $15, well, you're living big. You can actually have half a chicken for this week, something like that. So I understood temptation, but I knew when the chips are down, this was more than temptation. This was that crossroad. And this was crossroad number two. And the other one would be marriage and perhaps then birth of a child. Those are the four major crossroads, I think. And I go, my God, if I do this, I'm going to have to pay the wrath I will feel for myself for being such a coward. And the fact that they also didn't want me really pushed my body. It was like, no, you know what? This is exactly what I've been facing for years and years and years of saying you're not good enough. So I'm just going to play tough to get. That's it. I'm just going to, because I really felt I had nothing to lose. When you started playing the role and obviously you were writing, Mark, was there a sense of imposter syndrome? Was there a moment then where you started to lack confidence and started to question yourself while you were actually making it? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was that. I'll never forget. I was, it was freezing and I was not wearing my Rocky clothes, which were my real clothes and workout. I just wrote Italian style on the back, but this is the junk I used to wear. And I said, now you got everything you want. Are you up to it? Are you, are you as good as these other actors? You're not really experienced. And then finally, then I made the guy outside, he goes, okay, slide, we're ready. I said, Rocky, call me Rocky. From now on, I'm going to be that guy. And whenever I put those clothes on, I want, I became that guy. You know, some actors like everyone has a different method. They really do. Like there's, there's no, like how many different ways do, do you interpret a character or what is your training method? I think it's really very simple. I think Daniel Day-Lewis said, he goes, it's good acting and bad acting. It's truthful and there's not truthful. You know, it's something like that. And it's, that's really it. So I said, from that moment on, I'm really going to actually believe I'm this guy. And we started talking like that, you know what I'm saying? And all these like things I'd see these other fighters, they'd always be, you know, like the ready to fight or just staying loose. And all these things started coming to me, what I call isms, little mannerisms. And it really was, it was quite different. I could literally remain in a character 25 hours a day. It was just, I really felt comfortable. You just saying that the idea of being true thing, when you watch Rocky, it feels very true. It was very real. It feels very honest and, and earnest as well. Like you, you, you really feel his pain. You really feel that and it's something you can relate to as well. I feel to me, some of the most powerful scenes were between Rocky and Mickey. What? Without a doubt. Yeah. That scene where I, I had written a scene and I felt it was too short, too mediocre. And then I said, you know, I'm going to play this scene, like what I've wanted to say to my father. And I never did. And that scene of me, what about my life? What about, you know, you, you had a problem. I had nothing that was coming from my soul. Like, cause sometimes you, I know other writers will disagree with me. Some things can be, be beautifully written, but then they're not as truthful. In other words, you haven't lived them. You're writing about them, but you haven't gone through them. And I did that twice. Here's the first example. When I did First Blood at the very end, I made sure Rambo didn't talk until at the very end. And I been to Vietnam. I had not had people die in my arms. So I'm writing from other people's experiences. And Rocky, that was my experience. I was living that. So when I was acting and when I was like psychologically flashing back. Do you believe that Rocky helped you grieve what you never received from your parent? Unfortunately, no, no, no. It didn't because I still feel it to this day. And it's something that you never really get over completely. I guess that has to do with DNA and genetics and stuff that we don't even understand that bind us together with our parents. So you just try to come to terms with it and try to do a better, have a better life with your family. And that's all you can do. But scars don't go away. You know, you just can't live. These are them all because they're inside. They're not out here. Oh yeah. Can you take the scarf? Hell yeah. Can you take the one off my heart? Sorry. That's there forever. Yeah. I appreciate the honesty because yeah, it's kind of like a romantic idea to think that you can heal those scars on the inside, but what you said feels real. Yeah. It feels so true. And it's such a painful experience. And I've been watching this more and more, especially when I interview people who've lived decades of life, like you have real life experience and you go, you look back at that experience and say, that made me who I am today. That made you a fighter. It drove you to this incredible life. I got to meet your beautiful family today. Everyone's like the most sweet, kind, sincere family, like so, so hospitable, so welcoming, so warm and made me feel so at home in your home. Like I feel so I'm like, Oh, I'm moving. It's fascinating that pain has to make that. And you go, is there another way? And, and, and I don't know, I've been thinking about that. What have you seen from your years of life in France? I've been thinking about that. And I think it's just a matter of coping with it. And, and, you know, it wears its ugly head now and then you might see something that reminds you of it and it triggers it. But again, it'll settle down because, you know, I've gone through some pretty brutal things and, uh, you can keep a lid on it for a while, but of course the lid does come off. And, and usually it's hopefully you're alone when that happens. And then it settles back down. It's, I call it volcanic. It's like volcanic eruptions in your, in your soul. You have them, it erupts now and then, and, but it never goes away, but I'm sure you've gone through it. How do you go through life without being beaten up? You know, you start getting beaten up the minute you're born. It's, this is as easy as it's ever going to get for you right now. Okay. You're crying over a toy. Guess what? That's the easiest it's ever going to be. It's gets a lot rougher when you have to cry over serious things in life. Where a lot of the monologues in Rocky pep talks that you gave yourself when you were younger. I know what you were just mentioning now getting beaten up, obviously in Rocky Balboa, you're talking about the scene with Mickey channeling emotions to your father. What are other memorable moments for you? That felt like you were channeling your own inner pain and emotions into a scene. I would have to say like, uh, when I'm speaking with my son, that, that one just came so fast. And, and a lot of people say, was that written for your son? I go, uh, the truthfully, I was writing about me. Like, are you going to live in the shadow of your father? Are you going to blame other people? So I was writing about literally what I had gone through as a young man and how you don't do that. That's not how winning is done. Get up, take the punches and keep going. So it was like self-reflecting. It was almost like a, a lesson to myself, a reminder of what you have to do to get through this thing called life. It's just keep punching, keep punching. I love that you said that Rocky's more of a love story than it is a sports film. Sure is. That's why I think I like it so much too. What's the, uh, what are the softer qualities of Rocky that you most identify with? He just is so sensitive to her feelings that, uh, like when he does say things, you know, women, weak legs, and I got to stay strong. Then he feels terribly sorry for what he said. Or when her brother starts to say terrible things about her and like, you, you slept with him, and that Rocky comes over. And he has every reason to, to really destroy this horrible guy. But he forgives him. He understands his pain. And then he goes, then he says to Adrian, you want a roommate kind of thing? Or she says, you want a roommate? That's the difference. He, he, he understands other people's pain because he has been so torn apart by life. Oh my God. I was going to write so much more like about his father and about his mother and about like, no one ever realized it. But in the, in the movie, the loan shark was his brother and they made me change it. You know? Yeah. Like that he was even working for his brother. Like he's like, even my brother used me as a thug. And, and, and, but the brother was also, he was, he was kind to him too. There were, it was just interesting, different dynamics and relationships that was, is very biographical. I mean, honestly, I, I want to say it's just so brilliantly written as well. Yeah. Genuinely. Like, I'm not just saying that I, I grew up as a massive fan of autobiographies. It's my favorite genre of books. And so I grew up reading everything from. I grew up in London. So David Beckham and all the way through to Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. And so for me, I, I love reading about real life stories. And this one is just, I'm there with you. Like, I can picture the scenes. I can experience it. No, it's, it's, it's spectacular. Honestly. I mean that it was gripping. I was there. I was just, it was so easy to read too. It's just, you're just fully there with you following the story along. But when I was reading it, I was thinking to myself, like one of the hardest moments was when, and you've talked about this in other places too, but like how your mom doesn't go to the Oscars with you. And, and I was thinking about how did that feel? And did you ever feel she was proud of what you did? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what you'd achieved. No, never. No, it was, it was a, it's a very odd thing. She had been raised horribly too. And she was just passing that on. And I always thought, why would you have learned from that? And like, not be the same, like have the same degenerating kind of like mentality that I'm going to make it even worse for someone else. Cause I, someone was bad to me. So I'm going to show you, she was very witty. She had, she was smart, but she never forgave me for, in her mind, destroying her opportunity. Like it's, I mean, I'll never forget. I didn't put this in the book. Like I was late for school as usual. And there was a play class window, like class. And my mother was like, hurry up, hurry up. I don't want you to stay home today. You're going to be late for school. And she pushed me to the door. And I was like, I don't want you to stay home today. And she pushed me through the window. Cause I stumbled and I literally got close to 60 stitches here. I can see my bone. And the only reason I didn't bleed to death is there were workers next door building a house and they came and took me to the hospital and like sewed me up. And it was so critical. They couldn't at that time give me Novocaine or anything because it was that bad. I go, do you remember when you pushed me through the window? He goes, you tripped. I go, you pushed me. Now here's what I'm, here's where I'm getting at with the story in a lot of other ways. She just pushed and pushed and pushed me in terrible directions and, and very, very mean, mean to people around me, mean to my wife. And just, and at the very end, and when she was like 90, I said, do you regret anything? And he goes, no, never. In her mind, she never made a mistake. And I'm wondering, is that, is that a gift from God that you're able to completely block out truth that you could go to your maker with actually not no guilt whatsoever? Or are you completely a psychotic? You, you, you literally have lied to yourself so much that lying is the preferred format of how to conduct your life. I will just lie about everything until it becomes natural. And I'm just like, I'm just going to lie about everything. And I'm just like, I'm just going to And that's what it was. She literally had never told him the truth her whole life that she became very comfortable. She never had the, uh, a thought of, I'm actually telling a lie. No, it was all her lies became truth. And I saw that was that, was that a gift or is that a curse? I don't know. But anyway, you could see the effect has been, was, was long lasting. I think it even affected my brother and his family. And I think that's, that's, that's a very, very important thing. And I think that's, and it comes out, it just pours out. Why did you choose to leave that out of the book? I didn't want to sit there and sound like I'm just whining and complaining and, oh, woe is me. The truth is everybody in this room has issues, has had moments. If they haven't, they're really, really blessed. They really are blessed. But everyone has had to deal with this situation called dark side of life. And I just don't want to say, oh, again, you're not the only one, Sly. There's people a lot worse than you are, a lot worse. I mean, I've been literally tortured to death. And so I just thought, let me just leave it at this relatable level. People can relate to this, but if you go too far, it's almost, you know, because I could have gone, believe me. Oh, really? Oh, trust me. Oh, trust me. Wow. Oh, yeah. My family knows about it. It was really quite unbelievable. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's, for what it's worth, I think, you being that open about what you've been through and how much drive you had, I'm hoping that that's actually going to help a lot of our listeners find their motivation in their life. As you said, everyone's- It's very complicated. Yeah. Because I'll tell you another story. It's very, very odd. My mother, for some reason, I always was still trying, always trying. And I never felt it was giving back. Then when my father, who is also a tough, tough cookie, he's dying and he has a form of cancer and she calls up hysterical crying, like, be nice to him, please. Show love and kindness like I gave to you. I'll pass it on. And I was literally just sitting there. I said, do you mind if I tape this? Because I can't believe what I'm hearing. She goes, you can do whatever you want, but please do something for your father before he dies. And I'm thinking, this is the woman that made his life hell and he made her life hell. And now they care about each other rather than their own children. And I thought that was quite fascinating that when you're really at death's door and how priorities shift, like this is the man you divorced 50 years ago and hated. You used to talk about him in horrible terms. Now you're shedding. I've never heard you sob, heaving like in my life. And then when I passed the word on to him, he goes, he goes, always, please be kind to people. And I said, do you have to be near death to feel like this, that you feel as though you should have been kind to everyone? He goes, yes. And I went, wow. You see all the confusion? People are so complicated and they're never going to be, they're beyond Rubik's cubes. They're made of flesh and bone and that transitions all the time. It's always, it's always morphing. The same person you met at 10 is not at 20 and 20 is not the same at 30. And they evolve. It takes a very erudite individual, quite perceptive, to sort of understand the machinations and the mechanics of how people will, they change. We're not, we're not furniture. We're not, oh yeah, that antique's perfect. We're not antiques. We are, we are, slowly becoming aging artifacts of the past. Yeah. Some of life's best moments happen because nothing went wrong. The drive home, the conversation that continues, the plans that stay exactly as planned. That's the feeling of safety. Every Mazda is designed with proactive safety features that help keep you more aware, more connected, and more engaged with your drive so you can feel confident on the road. That's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' Safest New Car Brand. And as of July 2026, they've won more 2026 IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus Awards than any other car brand. Was it confusing to be at the Mazda? Was it a moment when you were losing your parents? Yes, it was. It was. It was very sad. Because, you know, you go, why does it take so long to have a realization of something so profound that my father was a very, very physical man, you know, big time. Like, I'm talking on the floor. Let's go. To have this revelation. I'm like, my God. Maybe he had that in him, but he just didn't know how to release it at the time. So you start to go through all this stuff. And then, then it's like the Robert Frost poem. We all dance around and ring and wonder, and the answer sits in the middle of the nose. And that's what drives us. That's what drives, you know, all intellect is driven on curiosity of not knowing what it's all about. So we all develop philosophies, and this is my interpretation. This is my religion. This is how I see it. You know, and each of us have a different proportional way of dissecting their lives, going, this is the direction that works best for me, where it may work terrible for her. Like, I'm going to be a tough son of a bitch my life, and no one's going to hurt me, and that's my route. And that's what he did. See what I mean? Like, no one's going to, this crust. But it did crack at the end. See? And I wonder if he blew his whole life by not being the really genuine person he could have been. Yeah. You know? And I always think about that, because I have traits. I have habits that reflect his. Yeah. Even to this day, they come out of, I go, God, that's him. He's so, you know, your parents, for better or worse, they're still alive, and, you know, even when they move on, there's trademarks of them. Idiots say, well, you laugh. You laugh like a mother. You know, your hand gestures. It's like, drives you fucking crazy. Like, what do we do about this? Like, you know, get an exterminator? No, there's nothing. An exterminator for the soul? No. You just, that's why it's so goddamn complex, and that's why our minds are always churning. There is, I mean, I used to study all these different kinds of theologies, and even chanting, and, you know, tantra this, and so on and so, and you go, how do you clear out the mind? Like, it is, I think it's almost virtually impossible to be without thought. I agree. You know, just, I think it really is, just to be, give me one minute of no thought. Well, that's a thought right there. You don't think, you don't think you're thinking, that's a, it's just, it's wild. So, it's how do you corral these thoughts and try to keep them under control? Some of them are destructive. They're there to like test you. It's really a pain in the ass. Life is a pain in the ass. It really is. I was going to ask you, you said your dad's, you know, version was almost like this, be this tough cross, this thick, you know, I'm stronger. How would you define your philosophy of life? Oh, now you're getting deep. I feel like you're, you're a philosopher in this book. Your movies are philosophical. Like the, everything has such an undertone of just, Yeah. You know, life advice in everything you do. Like it's, it speaks to me. I used to think that I'd like to confront things head on. And my philosophy is like, sort of, not, not confront them head on because, you know, like sometimes it's not worth the battle. For example, when, when I wrote Rambo in the book, he was a homicidal maniac and he was just running to violence. He couldn't wait to kill because that's what he'd been trained for. When I took it over and started to rewrite it, I had him running away from everything, avoiding it, trying to not, not to confront his demons. Just like, don't, don't, I don't want to fight with people because I know I'm going to get crazy. And take your life. So I felt as though I was very confrontational and I think it, it wasted a lot of my life being angry. You know, that old thing, they'll turn the other cheek. I never turned the other cheek. I was just the most combative and, and looking for a challenge. And I always felt as though I had to compete with people that weren't even competing with me. I just thought that like, I have to, I have to try to be the best. I have to try to be the best. You know, because I was always told I was not the best or that kind of thing. And it took me until maybe 70 years old to stop doing that, to just, like, let it lie. Let other people have their moments. Don't always be competing. Don't always invent these frigging dragons that you have to slay. There are no dragons. They're only in your mind that you just are looking for some reason to stay relevant. You're relevant. You don't have to continue to battle and also to be envious and jealous. That, in my profession, reigns supreme. You know, because people in my profession, when you're rejected, you're not rejecting a product or a car you're selling or rugs you're weaving. You're rejecting the flesh on your bones. You are not good enough anymore. You're a passe. You're leftovers. And actors go through that. And that's a terrible death. I've always said, you know, actors die twice. And the second one is a lot easier than the first one. Because you're being told that you're not valid or nobody wants you anymore. I've been told that. You know, like, when I was going to do Rocky VI, Rocky Balboa, it was a very interesting time. My career was in a slump, like, for eight years. That phone, that phone had spider webs. It was a dead, dead instrument. And I thought, wow, the only way I'm ever going to get out of this is to write my way out of it. So I wrote Rocky VI. And the movie is about grief. And it's about loss. It's not about fighting at all. It's about pain. Replacing old pain with new pain. Something like this. Rocky couldn't live without his wife. And this situation here is something that I knew I had to do because no one was hiring me anymore. So I said, let me write something like this. And, again, the studio said, you're over and Rocky is dead. You both are finished. And I found one person who said, all right. Let's just give it a try. And it turned out to be a very big hit. And I went on to do Rocky and Rambo and Expendables. But, literally, it took something like that to dig yourself out of this. It's really remarkable when you're told, told, you're done. Your character is done. You're finished in this business. Nobody wants you. Which one was harder, being told you weren't good enough at the beginning or being told you were dead? Or being told you were done after you'd had massive success? After, afterwards. Why did you believe it more that second time? Because you go, you went through all the trials and tribulations. You were incredibly successful. You achieved all your dreams far. And then, now you're worthless. I go, wait a fucking minute. Worthless? Now I'm back to 10 years old again. I'm back to reliving that whole chapter again. After I'm done, we won awards. We won the Oscar. Everything. You have no value anymore. So, that to me was, because you're a grown-ass man now. You know, it's that kind of, it's like, it's so humiliating. It's one thing as a child, but as an adult, and having done and climbed to the highest peak in this industry, just be told that you're on your way to hell and there's nothing, and you're gone. There's, you just don't mean anything anymore. That's a rough one. See, it's not like, oh, we don't like your product. You're the product. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I feel great empathy for performers, and I feel that way for all performers. Writers, dancers, anyone that they feel the impending clock ticking. That's like, I always put like 90% of my paintings, there's always a clock in it. Because I feel that thing, you know, that horrible impediment of time. How do you value time today? Time is more precious now than ever because, I've put my body through a lot. I've had nine back operations, three neck fusions. I've had heart problems. I've had everything that you like. Always use a stuntman. That's my motto from now on. If I can pass on any knowledge to young actors, use a stuntman, okay? Because it's going to catch up to you at the end. So, I realized that I'm on borrowed time. The average age is 77, 78. That's when you say, goodbye, I'm 80. So, I'm three years over the quota of where you should be saying sayonara to this life. So, I look at it, very, very important. I mentioned to my wife all the time, like, you know, I got to keep living. I got to keep staying alive. I got, I'm enjoying my life now more than those other 80 years. And I said, Jesus, if I can just get a few more out of this, then I'm going to understand what true happiness is. Not manufactured, not semi, not partial, like full, real friends. I mean, really honoring your friends. I mean, friends are hard to come by, really, really hard to come by. And I've had one friend like for 65 years. So, you got to covet that. That's a very rare thing. And that only comes with age and age, you know, can play tricks on you. One time just walking, because I was supposed to pass away a couple of times, you know, because of just inner problems and just beating up my body so badly. How close did you get? Oh, I got close. I got like two heart attacks, you know, like major. And then I go, come on, God, give me a break, will you please? I'll be a nice guy. I'll be all right. I promise I'll use my time to the best of my ability. Here's what's weird. And I don't know if this is just self-delusion. And you're a young man now, and you'll feel it, you know, when you hopefully when you catch up, which would be a long time in your case, that you're doing your best work. Now, you may not be writing your best or painting your best, because I can see the generation in painters, you can say, oh, God, he was better, Picasso was better when he was 40 years old than he was at 90. Without a doubt. But I find that acting, I've had so many different dramas in my life and I've taken away and I've had my heart broken and I've broken hearts and I've done, in other words, you've done so many things that now when I speak, I'm not acting. I'm not just saying the words. I'm feeling the words. And that's the difference in acting. Anybody can learn words. But to understand the words, you got to have lived it. You're talking about friendship. How do you define a good friend? A good friend literally will show up when you don't even need them. You know, he's just there for you. He can sense that when you're sad, like if a tragedy happens, God forbid, they're the first one on the phone or at your house. If you want to insult them, ask them, hey, do you need some money? And they go crazy on you. Because that's not a friendship. That'll be the end of it. You know, that kind of thing that wants nothing from you, wants to give what they got. That's a beautiful definition. And you have a 65 year friendship, he said. Yeah, I do. That's unbelievable. I do. How often do you talk? Every other day. Wow. I know. Isn't it weird? That's impressive. No, it's great. That makes me feel. I talk to the best man from my wedding every other day. Do you really? My best friend. We've been best friends for 20 years. Well, keep that up. Keep that up because he's going to know things about you that no one, your parents, or the parents will ever know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. He's the only person in the world I can tell everything to. Exactly. And he won't judge me. And I don't feel embarrassed sharing something that I might feel a bit, you know. It's amazing that you know exactly what's on your brain, how you think, how you don't think. I mean, it's just great. Yeah. You've been married for 29 years with Jennifer, who I just got to meet, who's absolutely wonderful. What do you believe you had to unlearn from how your parents raised you through their marriage? The greatest asset people can have, right up there in the top three, is I've always thought patience is not a virtue. I thought impatience, to me, was a virtue. Like, let's get it done. Well, not so. When you have someone who has patience, that is willing to ride out the storms without any shelter, just bare themselves to the volatility of your personality and all the baggage you bring, which I brought. I brought a lot. And she was so healing. And the patience she showed, because, I mean, she inherited my parents. She inherited this whole thing. And it wasn't until, you know, they eventually moved on that I really said, this is the greatest woman ever born. This is the greatest. And I try to say it every day, you know. I never go to bed without saying I love you. Ever. Never, ever. And that was never the case. You know, it was just, I didn't know what love was. I really didn't. Love is the most complex word there is, because it's a billion different words. different kinds of love, and then when you hit on that one, where you say, "I can't live without this person," then that's it. - That's love. - That's it, you're done, done. Go no further, you know? It's like what Khalil Gibran would say, "Love is the thing that can take you to the highest "and at the same time drive you to the lowest. "It's a sword hiding within the pinions "of the feathers of the angel." Like, in those feathers, there's also, be careful, there's a sword. So it's, I mean, let's face it, it's a one-word novel. You could literally write, and people have. I mean, has there ever been a better writer than Shakespeare about love? And yet it goes on into everyone. So it, but everyone has a different interpretation. They said, "Will you die for this person? "Can you not live with this person? "Would you literally wanna follow this person "into the ground?" That's the person. - You mentioned the word true happiness a few times in our interview. How do you define true happiness? - Oh. When your wife's happy, and you're happy. That's really happy, 'cause if that's not working, nothing's working, trust me on that one. Because the woman, they transition as they move on. They become, now you're a lover, and now it's your companion, and now it's your boss. It's your mother. And it's your guy, it's your woman that holds it all together. And I was just talking to my wife about that, about how the different stages. A man, not as much as a woman, 'cause they go through birth. It's like, whoa, they're not gonna be the same after that. You know, it's like, and they raise all their children. That's a lot of work. So they're gonna be different than they were when you met 'em at 20. So as you can imagine, you have to somehow, and she brought this up recently, you have to adapt. To their adaptation. 'Cause that's like, you're not the same as you were. No, I'm not. I was just 20 years old, and I was carefree and happy. Now I've had to live an entire life, support a family, support you, support this, and go through tragedies, go through exaltations. I'm different, and you have to treat them different. - You're never married to the same person you married to. - You're not. You know, you're definitely not. I go, God, whatever happened to that kid? Well. I've lived life, and life changes you. There's no getting around it. It's like changing your, you know, your skin sheds. Well, so does your soul. - You mentioned in your documentary this beautiful statement that life before 40 is about addition. - Yeah. - And life after 40 is about subtraction. - It is. - What have you had to learn to let go of? - Well, up until 40, there's a sense of almost invulnerability, like I'm getting there. And then I realized, one of the relationships that I thought were good were business relationships. And any relationship based on money is not a relationship. It's commerce, okay, period. And when that commerce stops, you wonder why your phone stops ringing. It's not complicated. And then loved ones start to go. And that's where the pain starts. That's where you really want to hang on to your friends in the beginning, because they're going. We're on our way. We're on our way out. There's no maybe about this. There's not a guessing. People always go, "Oh, I wish I could live forever." No, you don't. If your friends are all gone and your love is gone, your wife is gone, your children are gone, you really want to be a vampire, really? Does that sound good to you? Not to me. It's not like the worst curse there can be, you know, that kind of a thing. That's when I really, when I wrote about Rocky, I said, this is, he's going to undergo the worst grief a man can undergo. And it was not aging. It was his life, his love. You know, the reason he woke up every morning and had someone, "I love you," that's gone. There's a pillow next to you that will never be felt. Brutal, brutal, brutal, brutal. And that's what that whole thing was. That's why I knew that, to me, Rocky I and that one was the best one because it was so true, you know? I had come close to that a few times. I said, "Nah." So, right now, it's the happiest, because when you get to be a certain age, you kind of figure it out, all the mysteries, and you realize they weren't mysteries. They were common sense, but you were too stupid to realize it because you had the foible of you. You were too stupid to realize it, because you had the foible of you. of youth, the invincibility, like, yeah, I know everything. Like, God forbid, if we had listened to our parents about, or our grandparents, they say, listen, don't do that. Fire is hot. Don't stick your hand. Maybe to you, but I'm not going to feel it. If we had just listened to some of those life lessons and avoided all those pitfalls, oh my God, how many, you know what I mean? Just, especially about love and relationships. That's not going to happen to me. Oh yeah, it does. Do you have any regrets? I have so many regrets. It would take about another 10 hours for you. Yes. You have regrets because you took chances and regrets are the failure of taking chances. You regret it. Oh God, I went for that. I, you know, it was romantic here. I, you know, I tried to become the finest athlete and I was never, I was not good. I would fail, regret, regret, regret. But more regret is where you, where you've used your mouth in the wrong way and said the wrong words. And that is really, cause you can't take them back. If someone's like willing to forgive, have patience, they understand you said that out of anger. That's not me. Well, it is you, but it's a part of you. You don't want to bring out, you know, he was just in a bad mood. Well, that's not me. That bad mood came from somewhere. He's got to learn how to control it. But yeah, that's, that's all part of forgiving that. Cause God knows, uh, she's forgiven me a billion times. Also, if you're complex, I mean, Jesus, be careful what you wish for. I want a complex person. No use I want a person with a single track mind and like, yes, very simple. You get the complex ones. They're always questioning. Everything. And that's me. So you're the complex one. Ah, yeah. Yeah. She, she, she's the balanced one, the straight head, the honest one, the one that figures it out. It's really interesting. She says something all the time. It's very interesting. Math does not lie. You know, numbers don't lie, but when you're, she's pragmatic. When you're abstract, abstracts lie because you change it. You change the story. You tell the story 10 different ways. You embellish it as you get older, it gets bigger and the fish gets larger. And like, it's just, but when you're a pragmatic person, you just see things for black and white. And that's, that's the right way to see it. Like practical. I'm impractical. Like I told you, I bought this house without looking at it. That's not practical. But it worked out. It worked out because she did the investigating. Right. So you need, it's a good balance. Oh my God. Are you kidding? So many things that you just thought you needed in your life. Like, why did I have to buy a bear trap? Did I really need that? Or like, did you need 10 pair of red shoes? Like stupid. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but we just do things. Whereas she'll be, think about it. In a year from now, will you burn those things? Probably yes. So why are you buying? You don't need it. You don't need 30 watches. You know, time is time. You don't need that, that kind of stuff. So it's common sense. Yeah, absolutely. Last thing I wanted to quote from your book that really stayed with me. Uh, and it said, I had to calm down and it's this part and convince myself that dreams are put here on this earth to comfort us through the very dark storms that rage in our souls. And that, that was really powerful. I thought how lucky we are to dream. To have the opportunity to dream. Can you imagine without a dream? That means you're, you have no aspirations to go any further than where you're going. And I also said in there too, that sometimes people can get so lost in dreams, but dreams are also a cloud that will eventually dematerialize and disappear. Yeah. But that dream must come a solid vision of what you're talking about. Oh, I dream I was rich and famous. How are you going to do that? Oh, um, I don't know. I'm not sure yet. That's when you need a vision. I'm going to go here. I'm going to do this for a year. I'm going to work eight hours a day, no matter what. Sometimes I would sit there and I didn't feel it. And I would literally sit at that desk. But it clocked there and I wouldn't move. I said, I'm going to torture myself if I don't come up with something because I don't know what to do. Don't believe totally in writer's block. I understand it. It does exist. No question about it. But how do you overcome writer's block? You block the block. You sit there and I'm going to outlast you. And eventually your brain will go, this is so boring. It'll come up with something, something. You'll just start doodling before you know it. It starts to come out. And that's how I would get over writer's block. It's easy to get writer's block when you're not making any money. So you're writing and no one's buying it. So what's inspiring you? Nothing. So you got to inspire yourself. In your best days, how much are you writing? How many hours a day? I used to write. I'd start at 11 at night and write till like 5 in the morning. That was mainly during Poe. And it was very, very dark and nihilistic writing, the subject matter. Right. And then I started doing investigation and the majority of writers would write in the morning. So I would write at about, oh God, 5 in the morning till about 3 in the afternoon, which is a lot. Wow, that's a lot, yeah. Yes, it's a lot. It is a lot. That's a lot. And also if I didn't, if it wasn't just, because sometimes it's just not rolling out, then I would go back and rewrite. So I always had something to do. Because writers don't write, they rewrite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They really do. Yeah. I can't imagine writing this book. How much was it cathartic? How much was it healing? How much was it painful to revisit? Some was really painful. Yeah, some was. What was the most painful moment to revisit and live through again? When my father was selling me a car, a $40 piece of junk. And I was going to drive that to California, and I was driving into the unknown, and he apologized to me for being a bad father, and I'm sorry. And I wanted to literally attack him. I said, please don't say this. Don't all of a sudden change my thoughts about you and this and that. And I felt as though maybe I did something wrong. Whatever, I was a bad son, and you were, whatever it is, just don't change the way. Our relationship is by making me feel so sorry for you. And it killed me. It killed me. Whereas I never had that with my mother. And then as an adult, it was when I wrote Rocky, and they were starting to tempt me with all this money, and I needed it. I went out in the back. I'll never forget. I almost broke my hand, my fingers, when I started pounding this big, hard rock of a backyard from the sun. Because I said, God, it's like I was saying to God, give me the strength not to quit, not to buckle, not to be cowardly and give in. Just let me fight this fight until I win. And if I don't win, it's okay. At least I have to. At least I have my pride. I'm willing to go the distance, but I don't, I feel like I don't have the strength at this moment. I need more. So I got the strength from somewhere to, because that was like $2 million today. It was like a lot. That's why in the beginning of Rocky, I start with the picture of Jesus and come down. There's a reason for that. It's like this fella has been chosen. Chosen to do something very noble for other people to see that he's this, this poor, broken, discarded man is going to evolve into something because he believes and he, you notice he always did give, uh, thanks. Yes. Always. Yeah, always run by and take the blessings before the fight without beating the people over the head with it, you know, but just enough, like if I get beat up, it's not too bad. Do you still talk? Do you still talk to God today? I do. I, I think it's very, uh, therapeutic and, and there's a point where you have to stop talking to yourself, go to a higher power. So, yeah. And I, and I have this beautiful sculpture on my desk. It's literally life-size of Jesus. It's powerful looking. Yeah. Sly the last five questions. These have to be answered in one sentence. Maximum. We ask these to every guest who's ever been on the show. The final five today is brought to you by. State farm. It's important to have the right people in your corner to help you live your best life. State farm and their agents are just a call or click away to help you choose the right coverage for you. What's the best advice you've ever received? You must face life with the eye of the tiger. That's an old Indian quote. And that is what I always have. The other thing is to be loved, to love and be loved in return is the greatest gift. Like the song goes that we can have. That is the greatest gift to love and be loved in return. Period. Question number two. What's the worst advice you've ever had or received? You have too many flaws to make it in the world of a professional. So stick to something like physical, get a job like that. And like, in other words, learn to use your muscles, not your mind. That was the worst advice I ever got. Question number three. Yeah. If someone feels down on their luck right now, what would you say to them? You got to be very realistic about your talent. You have to be really honest with yourself. If you're down on your luck because you're trying to do something you're not equipped to do, then it's your fault. If you're down on your luck because the opportunity has presented itself, it's to hang in there. But the most important thing is to thine own self be true. Your ambitions. You should never exceed your ability. Period. And it does, you know, guys think that why are the lead in that movie? Because you don't have the ability. You're not that, you know, it's a God given thing. People ask me what makes a star exactly. That's it. What you just said. Yes. A mystery makes a star. It's a mystery. There is no formula. Yeah. Well said. Question number four for the book, The Steps. What are you hoping that readers will get from reading The Steps? I'm hoping that readers get this. That they look at this as somewhat of a guideline of how a journey can eventually lead to a positive result. But understand a journey is all uphill. You're fighting gravity the whole way. So be strong, be tough. Your hands are going to get bloody. But keep clawing away. Until you reach the top of the steps. That's definitely the message people are going to get. Really? Yeah. Very clearly. Very clearly. Yeah. I, while I was reading it, I was like, it was regenerating all these emotions of just like what it takes. Oh, I haven't, I haven't interacted with a piece of writing or film or television recently. That's just like reminding you of what it takes, you know? I think, and that's so important to just remember what it takes because then you'll never quit because this will remind you that this is what it takes. There's no, there's no shortcuts. No, there is definitely no shortcuts. And if it is, it's going to be very ephemeral and quick. Oh, someone got you the job. It's that thing. And it won't last because, you know, it's really, I'm sure you've been asked, like, how come you made it and this guy didn't, you know, you can be very vain and say, cause I have more talent, but maybe you worked harder. That's just it. You were just hungry. You had the eye of the tiger. I was just something that wouldn't let you stop, but you also, you had the stuff, you had the right stuff. If you don't have it, you can't manufacture it. Like my brother said once when he's very drunk, he said, he goes, you know, you can't be better than you are. I go, you're right. You can't be better than you are. You can really, I'm not going to be the best basketball player. No. Thank God you were drunk when you said it, because now I'm going to remember it, but it's so true. Yeah, it is. You really can't be better than you are. And some people, and some people spend their whole lives fretting over that and it's going. I know I know. Yeah. You're, you just put the ladder up the wrong wall. Yeah. Like there's another wall that you can put your ladder up against and climb up. That one you might be able to climb. Yes. And fifth, the final question we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? It's really funny because the, the, the laws of human nature are the ones that like in the Bible, whatever, they're the ones that we're most prone to do, you know, you know, thou shall not steal, thou shall not cover thy neighbor's way. It's all the things that you write about, you see about, you watch, you watch TV today, you're streaming. These are the subjects. Has anything really changed? No, not, not overall. Only yourself, only you, you, you have to be the architect of your life. You have to build it, you have to create it in. you have to live in it. Today's final five was brought to you by State Farm. Having people in your corner for life's biggest milestones makes all the difference. With a State Farm agent, someone is there to help you along the way. You can talk to one of their 19,000 local agents in person over the phone through their easily accessible app or at statefarm.com. Whatever works for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Sly, thank you so much for writing the steps, for walking the steps, for giving us this pathway. I hope that this interview continues to inspire people for many, many, many years and many decades. The fact that I sat down with you, my credit has gone up a thousand percent with my daughters, my God. They're the best. We literally connected like years ago online and I'm so glad I get to meet them. Thank you so much, my friend. You're the best. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series, East of Eden, a bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece following generations. of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers and Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames, the complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants, no matter the cost. Watch East of Eden, October 1st, only on Netflix. Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant. What would happen if I stopped doing it? You stalled. You freeze to death. That's what. With great power comes great deniability. I'm not the first, Danny. Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under $17.99 without parent. Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer. Until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way, at Ross. Thank you. Thank you. So grateful and honored, truly. You're the best, thank you. Keep punching. Yeah.