Sylvester Stallone Hid His Struggles for Decades. Now He’s Coming Clean.

"I live on regret. I can make a castle out of regrets." I'm Lulugar Sianavaro, and today I'm interviewing Sylvester Stallone. At 80 years old, the star of Rocky is telling his own against all odds story in a new memoir, The Steps, and allusion to one of Rocky's most iconic scenes. In the books to loan details, an abusive and tortured childhood, and how that fueled his success in some of Hollywood's most well-known franchises. "It's over, Jenny. It's over! Nothing is over! Nothing!" What became clear in our conversation is that behind that tough guy exterior he became famous for, there were deep struggles with his emotions, his body, and his family. It's a Sylvester Stallone you've never seen before. "I won't become bulimic. You didn't know that, okay. You were here first." But first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. You can now explore the times for free without paywalls during your first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app, and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, now on to the interview. It has been 50 years. It's hard to believe, I'm sure. Since the movie that started it all, Rocky came out. You're now 80 years old, which I'm sure is also hard to believe. It is. You know, in reading this memoir, one of the things that struck me is that, you know, some of these memories are quite painful for you, and you wrote in the book that at difficult moments in your life, you told yourself to, quote, "Put those memories away in a box and avoid them. Just move forward." What was it like to go back and revisit some of these things for this book? You know, it was a mixed emotion. There used to be some like, you know, tears, there used to be some laughter, there used to be some anger, there was bitterness, and then I thought, you know, maybe in one way, that was the motivation to do something extraordinary as opposed to, you know, just being very languid and, no, I had a nice relationship growing up, but I have no angst inside of me, that fuel. So I've always been on that cost like, you know, I punched you in your mouth, but did he do you a favor? Because now you go to the gym and you become a tough guy. You know, some, those things, I truly believe that the parents are the mold maker. They're sculptors, they don't realize it, but they're sculptors, they're rodents, and they're sculpting their masterpiece or their disaster. Yeah, I want to start actually at the very beginning because you came into the world in many ways how you have inhabited it, which is, well, you know, with a lot of turmoil, a lot of drama, it was a rough entry. Can you tell me about the day you were born? Well, it was my mother really, she also came from a lot of turmoil and she really wasn't mother material. And she had grand deos plans for her life. So my, her pregnancy with me was a big time interruption. And I don't think she wanted to really believe it was happening, even though it was in the ninth month and she was finally on a bus, she goes into labor and she says, I want to have it here. It was bad. And then we just happened to be near a medical center, you might call it like a charity award. It's like, there weren't even doctors that were just mainly in terms of one doctor, and that's my, that's my first breath on earth. Yeah, I mean, here in New York City, it was a bus, it was a bus right here. And the people who delivered you used four steps and they partially paralyzed your face, right? It could have been worse, because sometimes you get brain damage from it, maybe that happened too. I don't know. But it was a terrible thing growing up because I slurred and I mumbled and it's like 10 times worse than ragging. It was, it was rough. Did you see yourself back then as having a disability when you were young? I mean, yeah, it was. You know, you're not aware of it, you know, even if you have a list for a stutter, you're so familiar with it. But other people, you're like, what? What? Jesus. Say anything. What language is that? You know, good. You know, in the book, you seem to suggest that you're both your parents saw your arrival as having ruined their ambitions in some way. You wrote, can you really make people proud who never wanted you in the first place? And when you were very little, you were sent to go live in a boarding house. I mean, you were very little. Yeah. And your parents only visited you once a month. I've got to say, this is by modern standards, pretty extreme stuff. And you know, it's very clear that when you were young, you never got the love, you never got the support that most children need. I mean, how did you understand that as a kid? How did it make you feel? I don't know if there was some preventative thing or some blockage of being kind of a completely abandoned or four-learned or whatever. I just was raised by strangers, you know, in a boarding house. And it became sort of a natural environment. And my parents really were never nurturing. So this was actually a bonus compared to where I was living. I think if you are emotionally deprived when you're younger, you learn to lock things away, which is why I started with that quote about you locking things away. Do you think it made you like tough? In the wrong way, it made me very tough. And I literally haven't figured out real, real, real true love until you know, like 70. It really was, you know, because you have different incarnations of love. You think this is it or this or that, but to really have unequivocally, like true love and I love my wife and my kids. I mean, that total abandonment, that reckless love that you would jump into a volcano for them, that came late. And that's a big pity. It really is, because I was so consumed with not being another bomb from the neighborhood. I was very, very competitive like a pit bull. Like it's just, that's what got me going. It's not healthy. And I would have conversation with my wife and my brother or anyone at the time about why I was so competitive. It really was, it was, but then again, made you who you are. And you've had quite a life. Your parents had this very hostile and violent marriage in many ways. And they divorced when you were about 11 years old. Is that, is that right? Oh, yeah. 10 and a half of every year. Yeah. I mean, what do you remember about that separation? And, and how did they decide to split you and your brother up? It was, it was traumatic. I'm not sure about how my brother reacted, but when she goes, I'm leaving. I won't be living here anymore. And I go, where are you going? Because I'm just, I'm going to live somewhere else. I'm moving out. I remember holding on to her leg, like, literally dragged to the, yeah, it was like, you know what I mean? Like, hey, mom, come back. And this one you guys were all living together. Yeah, I should pull the leg away out the door. And that was it. And my brother came home a little bit after that. And there was nobody there. You know, I, I guess my father took me to the shop for some. So he was a band. And he never got over that ever. That scene. I'm so, I'm so sorry. I just want to linger on it. I've just you holding it. It was rough. It was. I'm telling you your mother's things where your legs buckle. You drop down. You grab around it like the, like a leg. Try to tackle her. What was going on? I don't know because she never was a loving person. I know I'm not alone in this that there's a connection at birth that some people have that's so palpable that no matter what, you cannot break away from this ability or need to have this person's attention. It's like electric and then being deprived and put into the dark. It's a, it's a terrible situation. It's a hundred percent true. You can never get rid of the connection to your parents. So is that blood thicker than water? I used to make, you know, I used to say, no, I was just stickier. But it is thicker. I mean, there's something there that is quite painful. Really it is. You go to Maryland and you end up living with your dad. He loved horses. He played polo. But what was it like living alone with your dad because we've talked a little bit about your mom, but that didn't sound like a great time either. It would be, I guess these constant bombastic explosions and then total silence because if he were talking and then he said, you know, I don't know if I agree with that. He starts spinning his fork, his suck his teeth and you you knew what was coming. The next thing you know, WAM. He had very. big hands. You just learned to duck a little bit, but there are some times I'll never forget, you know, I don't know, it's poor slide, but no, no, no, I didn't put a lot of stuff in the book because I didn't want a pity party. But it was, it was, he's seen. For example, it's church. Before we go to church, go to the store, which is a black way by some bread. I get, okay, I go down there, I see a couple of my friends, oh, I got to get back and I bring home sandwich, spread, nut bread. And he kicked me in his stomach and hit me, like, laid me out, got in the car, and went to church. I'm there in the street, Thai, I just kind of think was, you know, with mayonnaise, it really is, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Did you ever fight back? This is going to sound very, I guess, Greek tragedy kind of thing, like, when I was, I was like, 43, 44, and he was 25 years older than me. He goes, hey, you know, you're doing this, you're doing that. Is there anything left in your life that you like to do? I said, I wish, you and I could be the same age, three minutes. And he goes, wow, I said, because I let to give you some of your own medicine. And you would know what it'd be like to have your ass kissed, he goes, takes off his jacket, he goes, don't wait, let's bring it on right now. This is on Sunset Boulevard, pull the car over. You don't have to wait. Come on, he was ready to go at, you know, 68 years old. That's, wow. So when people go, where do you get the ferocity to play Ramboga? Kinetic. I mean, your dad was not only abusive, but he was competitive with you. Oh, yeah. I mean, he often tried to one up you sort of humiliate you. You talk about what you've just discussed, you know, him beating you up in front of church, but also, you know, you became a very good polo player and at a polo match in front of everyone, he dragged you off the horse and beat you up in front of everyone. Why do you think he was that way with you? I don't know. You never asked him. I don't know. You know, you keep, well, his father was like, his father was a very historic barber or the most, you know, they say they're a fly sitting on a kind of cow shit, thinks himself a king. So here he's like, "Yes, I'm the king of the street." And so he had this sort of impuriousness. And I think he's cold as hell. So my father was very, very cold and tough. For example, there was a cat just making noise outside the house. He went inside and we're not, got the cat. He took it into the live room, shot it and left it in the wash tub. Now, I think he did that to impress me like, holy, you'll never be as tough as your old man. And I won't. There is no chance. That's a whole other leak. It's funny, though. You keep on using the word tough. Yeah. And I don't hear tough. I hear messed up. You know, you're right. Because I'm using tough as a masculine banner for something much more perverse and weird dark dark dark. Oh, yeah, yeah. With all that drama and all that violence, was there any love between you two? Did you feel any love? Only on his deathbed. That's about it. I never, you know, it's so weird. My mother never, and my brother, well, it's just hugged me, ever, ever. Nobody's never like, "Oh, hold you to the breast kind of thing." Kissing, forget it, like nothing. It was always an air thing. And my father wasn't, um, and why he wasn't any better at all, but I'll never forget. We were in this, that was maybe nine years old. And he would always have me like, take care of resources, feed it so it's been never ride his sources. And so we were coming back from the barn. He's driving, and kind of fell asleep. So he put my head on his knee and his hand on my head. I never got over that. That was, that was the epitome. Like I went, "Wow, that's what it feels like." You know what I mean? It's like, "Wow." Like, you know, just a simple stroking of your child's hair, but that was it. It was one of done. So much so that you remember it. You know, you went to many different schools during this period. And one of the ones that you talk about is for kids that need a discipline. You got sent to sort of reform school. It sounds like. Devaro. Yeah. And you talk about being put in a psych ward. And I have to tell you that this was one of the most chilling things that I have read. Can you tell me that story? And, and why you included it? You know, as an adult, I saw once more the cuckusness. And it looked like a bunch of like, kind of eccentric old guys having a good, you know what I mean? No. At this school, there were five different departments for different ages. And in my age, you'd be like the teenagers. If you ever snuck out to see a girl or do something like that, you'd be reprimanded by taking to a place called Park Lodge or the Snake Pit, which on the outside looked like a tutor type bag or tutor home from the 20s. And then you walked inside and you now entered the heart of insanity, the smell, the filth, people running around naked and clawing, hands tied, drooling. And this is what they thought would impress you, never to break the rules again. And then they marched me. And I mean, they're clawing. And this is called the Lifers, where these people, there's no going home ever. Everyone had straps that would be tied down at night. The windows were covered with bars or grills. And they took me to a cell. And it was a padded cell. And I'll never forget it was that high. So you could never get off your knees. And inside, I'd look up right here and you'd have these elements, like dust constantly falling down. You see the real, it's been clawed at, it clawed at by the predecessors of this particular dungeon in clawed at. And they left your how long? I was there for like a couple weeks. It was it was wild. But this to me was one of the better things that happened to. I said, I know they're going to try to break me. I was attacked there. I was trying to rip my groin off. It was bad. What do you mean, tried to break your groin? Like they assaulted you? Yeah, they were getting chambered. He was a, actually he was a son of an actor named Lloyd Nolan. And he was put in there. His big had no hair, always naked, the Serratin, because you know, I never, he made sounds. And they call him Jayberg, because he's always naked as a Jayberg. And I go into the bathroom on the way to food, massage, which is really just a bunch of troughs. And I'm there. And he comes in. This fucking smelly bear comes around me. And he's like, we've been in my thoughts. And he's going into my pants. And he's grabbing my groin. And I luckily, you know, got around to do this stuff in the face. And then the two guards come in and beating the crap out of him with razor straps. And I go, so I go, what the hell is wrong with him? You're on a crazy house, boy. Nothing's wrong with him. He's crazy. That kind of thing. I don't know, wow. So let me just get to the point. I won't be labored anymore. I felt when I came out of there. And I was standing before the school president. I'm either principal, because you learned your lesson. I gotta learn a lot more than that lesson, much better lesson. You can't break me. You can't break me. So when I got to the city and everything that came after that, I always felt I was unbreakable. In that way, my heart could be broken, all that kind of stuff like every human being. But I'm talking about will. You end up showing up here in New York City in your 20s. Yeah. And you have dropped out of college at this point, you have backpacked around Europe, and you have no money. And you have a dream, though, that you wanna become an actor, and you take a job as an usher at a movie theater. And I have to say this was so interesting because what comes through is what an obsessive you became. You start writing down dialogue from your favorite films. What were you trying to do there? What was going on? You try to learn, and I said, "You know, I have nonexistent. "I put on this monkey suit, "and people don't even see you." But you're in really a temple of wisdom and cinema. You can see what the audience reacts to, where they laugh. They don't, who gets up, why do they get up? You listen and talk about the film, and every day was different. And then I started to record it, write it down. And I lived literally in a, it was only like a cell. It was very tiny. It may be eight by nine foot rule. So I sit on my bed, that's all we had. And I'd have these old record albums of traffic and blood sweat and tears. And that was my desk. And I was just translating notes and notes and notes. And sometimes I go, "Ooh, what if this is it, Simon?" You're sitting in the middle of a bed like a fool, doing something that sounds so stupid to anyone else. What are you just postponing the inevitable? Didn't that fear would come? It's like the thing in the psych world. I'm not going to be, no, don't go there. Take the fear, swallow it, and move on. Yeah, I mean, you had an apartment where they were blacked out windows where you would write scripts for days on end. I mean, it's just this absolutely kind of manic intensity. And in this period, you were also getting into altercations, you were living rough, but you were also spending your days not only writing but going to MoMA all the time. And you had this deep appreciation for art. How did you understand these two sides of your side? I don't know, it just seems like if you're open, really open to different experiences, I'd just go on by this place and I look in there and for some reason I go, wow, the energy of the art, and you're looking at Le Jardin, all these incredible drawings and monades and story and nights. I go, what makes them so special? I could do that, then I go, no, you can't. Look at it closely, look at it closely. And it just started to invigorate me. And then I developed this unbelievable thirst for art, which is to this very day. And I started to paint. And I went there so many times, I didn't paint anymore. I just knew everybody, like, come on and get out of the cold. It's almost as if you're going to the church of the brain. You're the most wisdom in the world, it's right here. And if you're walking around like a fog, what are we going to do with my life? Go in there, you might find something that will spark an interest that gets you going in that direction because you're going in that direction. Do you wrote in the book, at my core, there's this simmering cauldron of emotion that can overflow with volatility? But it can also be directed towards deep artistic purpose. And I was thinking about that, those two sides of you, the, I'm going to hit you if you hit me. But I'm also going to go to MoMA. And I'm also going to sit there and pray at the cathedral of cinema. I mean, do you think you ever learned how to control that cauldron? It's very, very explosive. I mean, I'll tell you the truth. When sometimes in certain moments in cinema, even as an adult, at the end of first blood, it's a big nervous breakdown. And I wasn't written that way. You know, I hadn't written it that way. But then it came out, I said, this is coming from that cauldron. And it's a self-indignation of being run down, dismissed. That's the way I felt. That was the worst thing you could say to me, the worst. You call me ugly, call me this, call me short, call me stupid. Because that is what my father used to say. And literally, it would turn me into a maniac to prove I'm not stupid. And I would just work and work and work. For example, this morning, I'm 80 years old. I'm up at five in the morning studying my dialogue that I don't have to do for a month. That kind of thing. You know, it's funny that you mentioned that scene in Rambo, which is just an iconic scene. I was just watching it again yesterday. Yeah. And nobody would help. No one would help and say, they only go home. I wouldn't go home. We could just call them in there. I wouldn't go home, Johnny. I wouldn't drink with Jimmy. I said, well, what? I can't find your fucking legs. You are just filled with rage and grief. Yeah. And it just translates viscerally onto the screen. It wasn't written that way, though. You just were tapping into that culture? It just-- yeah. And I thought it was-- the way it was written is I'm supposed to commit suicide. And a very cool manner. I can no wait a minute. There's thousands and thousands of men missing parts of their bodies that literally actually thought they were doing something worthwhile. They were following the rules and orders of their country. Then when they come back, they're looked at as aberrations, Frankenstein's monsters. Then I thought to identify, that's what I felt like growing up kind of a thing. And it's kind of rage that they must feel that it's not their parents. It's their country that is scoring them. They're real parents. The ones they literally lost blood and friends and die for them are mutilated. And they go, you can't say it. Nice try. Thank you. Nothing. So this kind of-- and I really identified with this dismissive attitude that I grew up with all the time. And boy, when I look at that footage, I look distorted. I mean, it was the eyes. I mean, I was gone for a few seconds. And you're lucky enough sometimes in acting or painting or writing or anything where you can't-- where you just sublimely lose yourself. You do not know where you are. You know, people say, oh, maybe it happens as sex for a two seconds, where you literally blanked out. What was that? You know, kind of a thing. Well, when you have that moment in acting, where is it over? Was it one take or was it-- one take? Wow. Just to come back to this period that you were in your apartment with the blacked out windows and you're trying to make it as an actor, you get a lot of rejections because of the way you look. And you write Rocky for yourself. And the studios are very excited for the script. And it's well known the story that the studio ended up trying to pay you more and more money not to be in the film. They wanted James Conn, they wanted Ryan O'Neal, but they give it to you because you hold out again because you had this sense that this was like your last chance? This was it. I was done. Less than $100, $106 in the bank. And there was something. And I don't know if it's spiritual. But I said, God, man, I know in my heart that I will regret this for the rest of my life. And I will be more of a broken man than I've ever done this in the first place. And I don't know why I knew because I had no success. I was green, really green. And they had every right not to want to use me. If someone came into me and did the same thing and looked like me and slurred and all that, go, come on, man, you're not acceptable to a lot of the people in this country. But I don't know why. I just knew that this is the crossroad. This is the breach. And if you don't cross it, man, then jump off it. Because I'm not going to have someone else do it. Because I know I hate myself. I would jump myself. I really want to be emotionally that is terrible. No, I get it. I get it. Can I ask you just about this thing that happened during Rocky? This is your big break. You have sacrificed everything for it. They give you the part. You're a nobody. This is everything's writing on the movie. And you cast your dad as the timekeeper who rings the bell in the climactic boxing match. And this is what the whole movie is going towards. And you bring in someone with whom you've had this incredibly difficult relationship. And then turned into a mess. I mean, why did you let him back in? I just want you to love me for a little bit. A little bit. Like, look what I did. Share it with me. I know you thought I was a fool in my whole life, but here we are. This is not a joke. And he didn't ring the bell properly. And I kept fighting and fighting and fighting. You know, when everything's choreographed, it's like, one, two, three, four, bell. Not six, seven, eight, nine, ten. So Carl, what is it like? What's going on? Like you're throwing punches and you're trying to add lib and then it looks really fake, you know what I mean? Like, we need a bell, you know, whoever yell at me and it's like, it became like I said, "God, a really bad attack in trauma." And of course, it ended up in an altercation. By the end of the round, you know, you got really nasty. But for a moment, I thought, "Jesus, he'd be proud." - And later you end up inviting your mom to the Oscars. - Yeah. - Farakey. So then you call her up and you say, "Hey, this film, I might win an Oscar for it." - Who's in it, I call it. - And she blows you off. - Can I ask you about your mom specifically because as we've discussed here, she was difficult. This is putting it lightly. You're quite scathing about her in the book. And then in the 1990s, she becomes like a celebrity psychic. - I'm Jackie Stallone, psychic astrologer to the stars. I have predicted fame and fortune for movie stars and celebrities all over the world. - And I just wondered to jump a little later into your life and your relationship with your parents. How did you manage the dynamics when she sees proximity to your fame as a financial opportunity? I mean, that must have been a hard dynamic to manage. - Very, very hard. It was very hard because she had been married three more times. And then I saw her posing as a psychic with a turbine and rhinestones and this over-inflated sense of like buffoonery or she would go on Howard Stern and mock my father and call him like terrible things and then they'd get on the phone and I had my father and mother fighting on Howard Stern and go, "What other guy has to go through this?" - Yeah, this is 1992. They had this horrible honor argument. - Did you two produce the movie star? Let's say you guys did produce the movie star. - No help from how many guy could have done the job in three seconds. He did it once or best. He tried to get me to have an abortion. - Really? It's unbelievable. Why would you go on and humiliate yourself? What are you humiliating me? My children stop. I'll pay you anything to do whatever you want to find this restaurant, anything. Just live your life and just try to be proud of you. Why are you proud of me? I went, there it is. I'll never forget. I said, "Have you ever done anything?" I mean, are you do you have any regrets yet? No! Why? I went, "Wow." I live on regrets. I can make a castle out of regrets. I mean, when people say, "I have no regrets." I go, "Bullshit." Come on. Really, you're that perfect. Everything was just right. And that's just the way it was to the day she died. And last effort at the Oscars, I thought, 10 months earlier, I was basically homeless. Now we're with incredible competition. And you don't want to go. See, here it is. I'll put it in the nutshell. She never wanted to be alone with me, ever. And she didn't go. Then she stuck to her guns. And it really hurt me hard. I won't, I see, I won't go there anymore. And you know, that kind of. But it does affect you. My wife always says, "I know, it's hard to get over it." It's very nagging. It's a nagging scar that won't fully close. And every now and then it weeps and you go, "Hmm." But again, that's your cross-debare. Maybe that's why you had this certain sort of selective rage. Did you go to therapy later in your life? No. I said, "It's not going to help. It's just not going to help because it doesn't go away." You cover with all this subtle fusion, you know, ideology and intellectual dis and that and, you know, breathing and meditation until that moment, they didn't know you're right back, you're not going to an anxiety, you ever have anxiety? Oh, yeah. All that anxiety everyone has, it's coming from something that was so deep rooted. Did tell me about when you first suffered anxiety? It was the first time I did is when I was 36 and I was watching "Dailys" and then all of a sudden I stood up and my hair on my neck when I started getting hot and I go, "I'm dying. This is it. I'm on my way out. My heart banged down. I went, took a knee, crawled, rolled over and then now I'm in his dark like movie theater. I don't know where he's going from and then it happened again and again and again, they went away for five years and then it always seems to happen as you're ready to go on to today's show, like a boom, eight seconds, and you feel it coming on. Yeah. Did anybody go to Zana? That was too late to just sitting there holding his chair gone. I go, "I feel for it." And it's not a joke, you know, things I had and it's like, no. I think people would find it very heartening that you have experienced that. Oh my God. Especially as I got older and it was weird. When I'm in a crowd, I'd be with my wife at an arc exhibition and the room is filling up. You know, it's getting more and more and more. Then I go, "I'm going. I'm going down. Actually, let's get out of here and literally I just make it to the alley, boom, get down on one knee." Then again, I was at the mayor's office in Philadelphia. You see me in some warden, everyone sort of crowded me in the corner and I said, "I have to go. Thank you very much." And I just made it out of there and I go, "Hmm, what is that indicative of?" I never bothered you before. So there's something still bubbling inside, festering. It's like, it's a marvel, for example, that we still have magma and lava four billion years later in the center of the earth. How long does it take to cool an egg? I mean, my God. So the same thing our emotions are always on the verge of eruption. Despite having such a, I don't even know the word anymore, upsetting, upbringing, you've become a father of five. What did you learn about being a good parent, considering you didn't really at all have role models for that? I really wasn't a very good parent. My wife, Jennifer is the greatest woman to ever support. I mean, seriously, she's just like my guardian angel. I would have been dead like three times for real. And she just is the most giving. I don't have that gear of just abandonment of your own personal self for someone else. It's really unbelievable. And she raised my daughters that way. In my first marriage, it wasn't like that. And I was in my warrior mode and I was like, "Oh, it's conquered the world. This is your moment and everything fell by the wayside." And it was just a measly manner of existence. It really was. It was, the reality was the movie setting. The surreal world was my life. I have no control out here. I'm out everyone is back in call. I don't like it. I couldn't wait to work again. It's terrible to say that, but it's true. You suffered an unimaginable loss in 2012 when your eldest son Sage died. He had an undiagnosed heart condition that killed him when he was only 36. And I just want to say, "I'm so sorry." Thank you. I imagine that must have profoundly changed you. So, you know, the thing is, you know, you have so many episodes of guilt, like, "What should I have done? Should I have been there if it did that if I weren't right or left?" I had no idea that I mean, it was stunning. Like, I'll never forget. It was so cold. My mother's new husband, I never met with a doctor. They get a phone call Friday the 13th, he goes, "Sly, Stephen, you know, he's gone." He goes, "Sage, he's gone." I work on where? He's died. He's gone. I'm sorry. Click. I said, "This is possible." That's how you found him. That's how? Yeah, that's how. He's gone. He's gone. Dead. And he wasn't, you know, because of the fuel, because of all that, again, you know, dealing with your mother, with your life in the world. present and it just takes you into a whole other world. I'll never forget. I go, "I'm holding it together." What's it going to happen? You know, when, and then about a week later, I was all alone in my room and a whale came out of me. I've never heard before since it was just such pain and grief and guilt and it was just a, it was not human. It really wasn't, but I can say that as he was a very kind kid, he had a great mother, a nice, you know, we would have done wonderful things in the future. I just had no idea that he had something that, well, you would expect a very advanced adult to have, but now you don't get over that. I'm sorry. Back to Rocky. Back to Rocky. It got 10 Oscar nominations. It ended up winning Best Picture, and it's not just the film, but you end up capturing the public's imagination because it was this fairy tale story. And I'm very interested in the, in you looking back at this transition from becoming a struggling actor to suddenly becoming the hottest star in Hollywood, because in the book, there is this picture of you, which is very poignant, and the caption reads, "My last day of being anonymous." And I thought, what an interesting thing to put in a book that you can delineate that moment, you know, where you could walk the streets and no one would know Sylvester Stallone, and then after that was never going to be the case again. It was a tsunami. The movie started at 12 noon, and at two, people started coming, they saw me, and it was a deluge of being completely obscure for 30 years about just walking through being a non-entity, to now be in this celebrity, and someone who was tapped into their hearts, and more than just a movie. Like, hey, that was a great action film. It was like, that's my story, that's this, that's that, and I went, oh my god. And I can hear the applause, the applause in a movie there. It was like an event, and by looking at my brother, you're in for it now, pal. And that's, it really was just, overnight. It was just overnight. I don't know if it's never happened again, obviously, it's just one of the, it's the rarest combination of obscurity, to fame, in a matter of two hours, that's documented. Like, whoa. Did you look at fame as something in the same way as the psych ward, and let me, let me, let me try to explain what I mean, which is, this isn't going to change me, or did you look at it as, this is everything I'd ever wanted. Hmm. Well, I don't know if it changed me, but it breaks some people. Well, it didn't break me, what it did, it made me combative. It made me very, I told you so, revengeful, spiteful. And all the rejection, everything else, it was, I mean, oh my god, it was so insufferable. I really was, even with the New York Times, I'm like, oh, Madame Boverty, anyone could write that, you know, like, it was just, I don't know, I mean, Lily was, I became a petulant child. I really did. And years later, I mean, I, I despised myself, I'm surprised, I'm still here. You know, I managed to alienate the entire press and really did. And people that believed in me and so on, I just was not, I was just not humble, there was no humility whatsoever. Again, it's just childhood eruptions coming to the surface at the most inopportune times. Hmm. I want to talk about some of the people you worked with and came across in the 80s. And of course, we're going to start with Arnold Schwarzenegger, who you're now friends with, we should say. But he was a huge action star back then. And you said you couldn't stand to be in the same room. No. I mean, why did you hate him so much? What was it that, what was it that, like, take me back before the-- Because he was a challenge. He was, he, I thought I had something going on and then I could see this guy, this immovable force, a very confident human being. I think he'd been more so than me and more psychological in the way he would manipulate and do things very cunningly. And not in a negative way, but just truly when that was blunt force, he would knock a bell and he'd cool. And I went, God damn it. And he's winning these awards. And he's a bodybuilder. And I'm like, like, I said to myself somewhat more of a, you know, a lesbian, a dramaturg, you know, like, I think, a parapetetic dramaturgist wondering the country acting. And I went, wow, this is, this is, I'm going to, this is my guy. This is the guy I know I'm going to trouble with. Period. And sure enough, we did. We're just going at each other, which turned out to be fantastic. And, you know, I've had some moments with him and I'm regretful for some of the things I've said about him. But he antagonized me in a creative way and I did to him. I was a thorn in his side. He was a thorn in my side. But it just forced us to keep moving higher and bigger guns, louder, more action. This is what bodies, everything. Until I think we really carved out a niche that'll never quite come around again, that's certain 80s over the top actress genre that he and I sort of pioneered. You did. Yeah. It's like a creative marriage in a way. It is. I mean, so I, it's like Ali and Fraser, you need that thing that, that brings you to the surface that more than any other person. It's just, it's, it's not even hatred. It's, I, this guy, he, oh, cool. I, he, is, I dream about him. It's like, I'm on his mind. He's on my mind. It's very rare. You know what I mean? Men get it. I'm sure women get it too, but two alpha men who I can only relate to. It's like, you can't wait to go against and that kind of thing. And then he does better than you. And then he just glows on it. Oh, I see this. The low school didn't perform very well. Oh, oh, oh, and then vice versa. And then eventually we end up working together and expendables. And I go on the campaign trail for him. Unbelievable. When was the moment that you two that you thought we put this to rest? I mean, did it just come with age and him moving into politics and just sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At first, I thought, come on. Actors in politics. This is oil and water, you know, because we tend to, actors really very, very self-absorbed. And politicians, if they're really good, should be just the opposite, publicly absorbed. So I didn't, I saw there's a conflict there, but he was definitely sincere about it. And I don't know why, but he asked me, we had a cigar place. Would you like to be in an event? Yeah. Why don't I say that? And they're sure enough then we hit it off. And he's a very, very unique. I mean, he's one of a kind. Forget it. He's just. So until that moment, you really hadn't spent time with him. You didn't know he even liked him. I'm telling you, we always came to blows. I mean, when we were at Planet Hollywood, we couldn't stand to be in the same arena. Right. Because in the early 90s, you found it with Bruce Willis as well, Planet Hollywood. And you couldn't even, you weren't business together, but you couldn't stand being in the same room. Oh my God. It was a, I'll never forget there's a picture of he and I dancing. And it was, I think was a total recall or something. And it was at the hotel, the cap, and the afternoon, it's festive. And everyone's there. Oh, no, take a picture. Okay, slide. Take a picture. Okay, take a picture together. What a director. Why don't you come in here and get in the middle? I don't know, man. And then I grab him and like, we're wall singing. And he goes, to me, it's the greatest picture because I said, let's put this, this stop. You know, I mean, we're, let's just do this dance because that's what it is. You know, but it's, there's never going to be. You can do a movie about this, I for real. You really ask, you really can't. - All right, we don't have much time. That's why I'm going like that. And I'm upset because I have so much to ask you. So I'm going to skip asking you about working with Sandra Bullock and Demolition Man and Sharon Stone and the Specialist. So we're going to move on. - By ladies. - Yeah, by ladies indeed. Sorry. - Sorry. - Yeah. What I do want to ask you is about your body. - Body? - Body, yes, your physique. - Well now you're getting personal. - Because at several points in your career, you were exceptionally muscular. Which wasn't your build before Rocky. And I was really curious how your relationship with your body has changed over time. How you saw yourself and then how when you turned into this big action star with big muscles and everyone was sort of venerating that. How did you see yourself? How did your relationship with that change over time? - It became very, you know what I'd say. It was my armor. I looked at Rocky, Rocky, very smooth, very normal looking guy. And then I said, if we move on, you have to, I think the character would sort to become a bit more vain. And then if Rambo, you're playing a warrior, you'd be a little bit more animalistic. You wouldn't be so smooth. So I started to think, design your body like a jaguar, a cat. Not big like Arnold, but more furo and aggressive and very limber and move and athletic. And then it became an obsession. Really bad. It became to the point where I became bulimic. You didn't know that, okay, you heard it here first. - Yeah, because it was like, you know, you would eat, I got down to 2.6-potty fat when I was doing Rocky 3 and it opened me up and it literally like, go for it, you know, like, hollow. And I couldn't hold anything down. Or if I did, I didn't want to keep it down 'cause I became so obsessed at staying at that point of fitness. And then finally, you know, I just broke the cycle, but it got to me. Literally an obsessive body worship kind of a thing. And then, you know, nobody does it without, you know, additive and drugs, period. I don't care who they say, bullshit, it has to. But then again, it isn't as though you're a junkie, but it's a, if you're gonna put on, if you're gonna work and try to stay in shape for six months straight, and you're eating yogurt and pudding and there's not happening, you know, it's just not just like these. - 13 stories you're saying. - Oh my God, you have to. But you do it in a sense that in a way of 60, it's on 60 weeks off. And people go, you don't get that way naturally. No, you don't, you don't. Unless you're just a freak of nature. So everyone who says it, I can see him a mile away, you know, what is obvious. But that also took a terrible toll. Terrible toll. - Emotionally too, because of the effects. - No, no, you're in moods and everything. It wasn't until I did Copeland where I had to like, divest myself of that and play the weakest guy in the room. Partially deaf, overweight, everything. That I really felt somewhat liberated. Then things went sideways. And I don't know, I just fell out of grace with Hollywood. But yeah, the body has played a, but I've abused it. I've had nine back operation, two shoulder operation, three necked fusions, you know, everything. Everything is held together with bailing wire, but I still have that, hmm, want to stay in a good shape. - Do you still see it as your armor? - No, no, no, no, no, no. - 'Cause you're still fit, you're 80? - I'm sort of fit, but you know, I've got all kinds of, you know, take a lot of pills to keep going, you know, what kind of thing. It's coming to terrible price. If I could do it over again, I would say, let someone else carry the banner and don't do your own stunts, you know, I don't know what it was about just hurting myself. All the time, I mean, all the time. - Is it masochistic? - Yeah, very masochistic. It's not like I'm self-flagulating, but if someone's going to dive onto the canvas and rocky, they take a hit full force and go backwards and land foot, 'cause there's no padding. You're like landing on a board with a little thin canvas, it just jars you and jars you, but you go, I can do it better, I can do it better. And this is all going back to dead and, you know, back there in the polo field, like, no, you're not going to break me, but it does break. He took your broken a little bit physically, not mentally. - We're going to talk again, but I want to end with something that you said about regret. - Yeah. - And that you don't get to be your age, your career without a mountain of them. And we've kind of touched on that a little. - Yeah. - It's horrible, it's horrible. It really is. Because you know, it's the fog of war, the war of trying to succeed. And you can blame it on that or just self-pity, a self-absorption, and it is painful. But yesterday is dead. The future is unknown, all we've got is today, you keep going back to that philosophy. And you go, you know, forgive yourself. No, you forgive yourself for being a bastard. No, you just regret, you know, I wish I hadn't done that, I wish I hadn't done that. So I'm not going to do that anymore, but God. Because what you did, you hurt yourself. You really did, you did. - Yeah, you denied people your love and this and that. But you also did worse to yourself. - Have you forgiven your parents? - Hmm. I've accepted that they are who they are, you know, that forgive. I guess you could say, yeah, I do. I mean, it's definitely a delicate peace treaty. But yeah, I have to. You know, what do we do, walk around like yelling at ghosts? Come back here. You know, we're not finished, I can't. That's about the regrets. You know, so all I can do is cherish every second because let's face it, you know, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. There it is. And I'm incredibly fortunate to be doing Tulsa King. And I mean, it's a gift. And David Galassen, you know, like giving me this new breath of life and a whole new character. You imagine playing like, okay, we're doing Rambo at 80. Oh my God, who's he fighting? He's fighting Mr. Arthritis. I go, what are you? You kind of out of, you know, out of opponents. You're fighting, well, yeah, brain disease. We'll end here for now, Sylvester Stallone. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ciao. On the interview, we talked to our guest twice. So the next day, I spoke with Sylvester Stallone again. And he told me about his evolution from being an avatar for war in the Rambo movies into becoming personally anti-war. Hi. Hi. Back from war, what is wrong with you? I give you my word though, you have the most in depth interview I'm ever doing. So take that to the bank. Well, actually, I wanted to thank you so much for your candor yesterday. You have always been this person who has exuded invincibility. That's been your persona in your life. And that's been your persona in many of your roles. And so it's kind of astonishing to see you be so vulnerable. Even though I put on this facade of being armor, I have an armor. Like when you see Rocky and I'm writing for Adrian, I really have a lot of empathy for people that just didn't get a break in life. And I've always thought, boy, there's so many stories in these people but they're never going to get out. So that's why I think Rocky was such a success because everyone has that character that very few people get recognition for. You know, they just, you know, they live in quiet suffering. They're never going to get any recognition. They're never, you know, like I'm just here filling space. I'm just another seat on the bus. Hmm. You know, you've been in so many iconic films, franchises, Rocky, Rambo, The Expendables, now Taylor Sheridan's Tulsa King. You were nominated for another Oscar for Creed in 2016. What's your most underappreciated performance, do you think, that you're most proud of? Copeland, for sure. Because I had been basically reduced to a lump of me, like you're not that smart, you're an action guy. and I've always looked at action when it's done well as moderating. mythology. We don't have scribes running around in carving on stone tablets about the Hercules and so on and so forth. So I decided to delve in that by accident because first blood I never imagined would transition me into more physical life because I'm not I wasn't born this physical specimen at all. And it just it just became so frustrating that things are slowing down. I was 50 years old in 1996. I thought I'd like to go into the arena of the guys, the top athletes, the top actors and see how we you know bounce off one another and it became that kind of challenge. There was definitely a dichotomy between the serious actor and that guy meeting me and I thought I really welcomed it. I really did. I did the whole thing for free because the experiment was well worth it. You know in our first conversation you also talked about how no one would return your calls and Hollywood for a period of years in the late 1990s when things were pretty rough for you there. And this was a period when you had movies that didn't do well. Judge Dread, Daylight, Get Carter, Driven, Detox, Avenging, Angelo. And I came across an interview you gave to The New York Times in 1992 just as you were filming Cliffhanger. The article quotes one prominent Hollywood agent and I'm going to quote here who said, I think he's a diminishing asset with every film he does. He goes down a little further. He's the new Bert Reynolds. And Cliffhanger then went on to do really well. And it seems like there were these number of moments in your life when Hollywood was trying to write you off and you kept having these comebacks. I mean, how did you deal with this thing of having to keep proving yourself to this industry? Actually, I took it as someone invigorating because now I had a purpose. It's one thing to sit there and be I guess slowly, you know, your image is diminishing right before you. You're evaporating. But for some reason, I just said, this is a call to arms. And what am I going to go back to? I'm going to write another Rocky at 60 years old. And it was just the most ridiculous, like 60 year old boxes, like a hundred and twenty year old can can't dance or it just doesn't work. You know, it doesn't work. But I was able to get out the portion of what people go through. And if they're going into the later years, which is grief, the sense of loss that had nothing to do with boxing anymore. And I just felt like, God, this is the perfect opportunity now. And of course, it was rejected everywhere. I mean, I had studio heads actually say, Rocky's done. It's so are you, Sly? You're done. Just go all fishing. Okay. I get it. And I go to rewrite, have to rewrite. But I have always had this sense that you have to go down swinging. How do you explain this period of not so great films? I mean, did you know the films were bad at the time? Was it a quality control issue? Yeah, it really was. I mean, I didn't plan myself to the actual quality and who were the components. So even though each project had a great ability to be successful, I don't think I really focused on the fine strokes, which is what artists made about in other words, the right director, the right this, the right co-star, the right advertising, the right theme song. These are things that I used to really apply myself to. And I suppose I just got lazy. And it started this world pool. It makes me wonder, I mean, what it does to the soul of an artistic person to make movies that aren't good. Oh, boy. It's, it's, it's a death in the family because it's not as though you, you, you didn't sell a vacuum cleaner today. It's all over the world. And there is a part of human nature that revels in that. And I don't, and again, I don't take it personally. I think that quite often, human nature says, okay, he's had enough time. That's for gone the new generation. Okay, move over slide. It's just stop hogging the screen. So I get it. So it's, when you reach a certain age in this business, it becomes a very, very, very competitive delicate and tenuous career. It doesn't take much to baboon. So that's why I think it's, it's a very neurotic business at times because the product is you. It isn't like, Oh, you rejected my love, they're jacking up. We don't like you. But I realized, they go, you know, here you go again. You have to do it for yourself. You have to like go out there and find the firewood and start to fire. No one is going to knock on the door and go here. Here's an Oscar winning script. Love you. No, it's no, it really did. It, it helped me because I can, you know, we finally hit bottom. We have two choices. You know, you can't go any lower and you just eventually stop breathing. And I've always said, the artist dies twice. You know, the second death is the easiest one compared to the career death in which is, you know, you're being dismissed. But I said, and it just woke me up and I was so invigorated starting to write. So when I, the hardest and the proudest moment by far in my life is Rocky Balboa because nobody wanted it. I was done. I would I say done. I mean, agent fire me, managers fight. I was done. I go, okay, this is, this sounds very familiar. Let's start over again. Let's see if you can do it in 60. So it was a fantastic, you know, voyage into the unknown. It literally, I said, like, this sounds very familiar when you were 29 years old, same thing. Like, this is it. You know, listening to you talk about this, can you articulate your relationship then to the character Rocky Balboa because it that character has saved your career, launched your career. You are defined by it in many ways. America is defined by it. Rocky is kind of like my imaginary male role model. It's my father. It's what I wish, you know, I can be so, when I created him, I put every component in there. This self-effacement, this kind of humbleness, the ability to also take loss. How he's very philosophical about life is very difficult. And so I adapted that and it always came to the rescue because it just pours out of me. Really, it does. I mean, writing other things, especially if you're writing something like Rambo, which is very difficult because he's monosyllabic. His lack of expression. Rocky says, everything he's thinking comes out. You know, it's not about how hard you hit it, but how do you get it? Like, all these things that most people would never talk about. So I found this to be like a therapeutic beyond anything I've ever, like you ask, you know, you go to therapy. That was my signature Freud right there. I have another question about Rambo. You know, as we had discussed, the first movie was quite complicated. You know, this vet that was discarded by his country who had PTSD and you told this incredible story about how the last scene comes about with the movie ending with him being arrested. But then the character over time turns into this avatar, right? This classic action movie hero, perhaps with a little less depth than the original character had. Absolutely right. And that's my fault. That's my fault. This is where this kind of vain, glorious pomposity that like, now if I, if you're like that, way do you see this? And I didn't really focus on the depth of what he was still going through while trying to save POWs. He's trying to save his own soul. We never got into that. It's just like pervato, pervato, pervato, bullet proof. And that's on me. That's on me. I mean, I, that was a problem. This is when you, you get really hung up on kind of like clandestine narcissism. It works this way in there. And then you realize how this is a lot easier than showing your soul, practicing your muscles. See what I mean? And it was terrible. You know, it's like a cartoon. It came to define also this projection of American power. You know, and I'm going to quote you to you in an interview in 1985, when you were talking about your view of war, your politics, you said, if you have the power like the United States, if you're going to talk tall and carry a big stick, eventually you've got to use it or they'll think you're bluffing. Does Rambo represent and a part of your worldview at that point as well. - It did. - It did. And now I realize all war is futile, it's stupid. It's a mechanism to make tons of money for the war department and manufacturers and these kids just going out there into a grismo, being chopped up and then when they come back with no arms, oh, sorry, you're on your own. I hate it. I hate it and I'm bitterly opposed to it. But at one time, I was truly gung-ho, really gung-ho. And I don't know if I was just trying to go against the current, you know, in Hollywood there's a certain dynamic as you know. But I, again, I admit it was, I think it's just naive to tell you really 'cause I read a lot, especially after first blood and I go, well, this is brutal, this is horrible. There's no glory in war. None, none. Just-- - When did you become into war? - It's a, if you're under attack, of course, you have to defend yourself. But I don't want to get into politics now, but all wars basically destroy both sides. I mean, it really creates this horrible history and, you know, don't get over it. It just don't, it's grudges are held and, you know, the continents are, I mean, the countries are destroyed and lines are withdrawn for what though? - I know you don't want to talk about politics, but I am interested in something you just said, which is this idea of Hollywood being liberal and you being seen as a political conservative. Did that put you at odds in what was perceived as a liberal industry, or is that perception actually wrong? I mean-- - It is wrong because I totally understand why the perception is like indolible. You know, when Rocky came out, I was so naive, I'd never even voted. I was like pushing 30 years old. I had zero. I even know what a different democratic Republican. I function in another sort of universe. But when Rocky wrapped himself in a flag and that sort of thing and every movie we were up against at that time in competition was very, very heavy, very political. I mean, just the extremely erudite intellectual and Rocky was not that, it was emotional. And I think that's right away put me over here. And then when I did first blood, I, again, I had no idea that there was such a chasm between the left and the right and me, you know, being jingolistic, he's a saber rattler. He's gonna, it was, again, naivete on my part. But yes, it caused a major riff. And I wish it wasn't like that because I really think a lot of these actors have great empathy, great heart. And they're really more for the working man kind of thing. They're just down in the trenches. And that's where I live, you know what I mean? But I'm not considered that. And sometimes, you know, you say things. You don't, you don't realize the long range of facts. - So you're currently in Tulsa King, which is a Taylor Sheridan series. It's coming off on its fourth season. - That's right. - At this point in your career, what keeps bringing you back to the screen? I mean, this is no longer that you have anything left to prove. This is now-- - Is it about proving? - Well, not proving, but this is-- - No, but I know exactly what you mean. Like, what do you have to prove? It's like a racehorse. You just keep going until it falls down. It doesn't know how to walk, it goes out to run. And it's like, it's almost like breathing. Like some, it's like I talk to Al, but you know what I mean? Where these guys, this is the, you are that animal. You cease to exist without this format. It's what gives you life. - You said something in our first interview that really caught my ear. You said, quote, that you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, which I took to mean sort of the end of, you know, your life. And I was wondering how you feel about death and how you feel about that there is less time in front of you than there is behind you? - Yeah, in panic mode. - Really? - Well, because that's what I said before, you know, I built a castle with thousands of stones made of regrets. And I'm trying to make up for it in my own petty way. And I don't know if there's enough time and then I go, there is not enough time. What I have to do is just focus on the ones that really need me and the ones that I want to go on and have their own life and legacy. And I'm at the point, not, you know, it's 78. You're kind of like, chow. It's where the insurance comes and goes, yeah, that's the average. Some two years on borrowed time. And I'm making up for it as much as I can. You're never too old to be in love, never too old to dance with the great memories that you've had. And not wallow in the worst swamp of all, which is the swamp of loneliness. That is truly premature burial. - Well, thank you for the gift of all those characters. And thank you for your time. Sylvester Stallone, I appreciate you. - I get a little appreciated. Keep punching. - That's Sylvester Stallone. And to note, we reached out to Devorow for comment after this interview and a spokesperson replied that while they've not read the book, they respect Mr. Stallone's quote, write to tell his story his own way, take his account seriously and are sorry for any trauma he remembers experiencing. His memoir of the steps will be published on September 29th. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/@symboltheinterviewpodcast. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John Wu, mixing by Sophia Landman, original music by Dan Powell and Marion Luzano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, White Orm, Powell and Newdorf, Joe Bilbonios, Eddie Costas, Mark Zemel, Gavi Contreras, Kathleen O'Brien, and Brooke Mentors. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Next week, David interviews Chris Rock. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro and this is the interview from The New York Times.